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[0:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Hey, listeners! One of the great things about covering super old musicals on a musical theatre podcast is we can use super old recordings of the music in the episodes. So, while I still highly recommend the full cast album of Fine and Dandy that you'll hear a lot about during this conversation—links to that album are in the show notes—please enjoy a couple of authentic band recordings from the 1930s of K-Swift's most popular songs. We've scattered those throughout the episode for your pleasure. And now, without further ado, cue theme music!

[0:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome everybody to a musical theatre podcast where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite musicals in theatre history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons. You can call me Jeff. Today—okay, listen up everybody. The earliest musical that we've discussed here on the podcast that was composed by a woman was, I believe, our episode on Once Upon a Mattress. Music, of course, written by the wonderful Mary Rogers back in 1959. That changes today because we are discussing the musical Fine and Dandy from 1930. A show with a title that makes you think, oh, I know that one. The thing is most people don't. So, here to discuss it with me is a musical theatre historian and Broadway producer—be more chill, anyone.

She's the creative and programming director at Feinstein's 54 Below, where she has organized countless events—my gosh—celebrating all eras of musical theatre history. Her latest book, Women Writing Musicals, The Legacy that the History Books Left Out, is currently available for pre-order in preparation for its fall release. Everyone—oh my gosh, I'm so excited she's here. Please welcome Jennifer Ashley Tepper!

[2:03] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Jeff, thank you so much for having me. I'm psyched to nerd out about Fine and Dandy together.

[2:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You guys, this is the episode you didn't know you needed.

[2:12] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Totally.

[2:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's kind of an epic, epic story. Thank you so much for being here. Now, your first book—books? The Untold Stories of Broadway, right? Like, how many volumes did that one have?

[2:25] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: There are four volumes of The Untold Stories of Broadway. They'll eventually be six volumes. So, basically, each book chronicles eight Broadway theatres, seven current ones, and then one lost Broadway theatre. So, in order to do all of the theatres, there'll eventually be six volumes. But, in the middle, I started writing Women Writing Musicals. So, I'm really excited it's coming out this November.

[2:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, and it feels like there is a through line here, right? Which is, you seem very passionate about stories that people don't know.

[2:55] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah, definitely.

[2:56] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So, like, when did you start nerding out? Like, is this a lifelong pursuit?

[3:00] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Absolutely, absolutely. One of the most influential books to me as a theatre nerd was Ken Mandelbaum's Not Since Carrie, which is like—

[3:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: The Bible!

[3:08] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: The Bible! Like, a wonderful book that technically is about Broadway flops. Not a bad word.

[3:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Not a bad word!

[3:15] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: No! A show that played less than 300 performances or lost its money, but like, all of these shows that have fascinating things about them that have really valuable parts and interesting stories. So, I was always really inspired by that book. And, for years, you know, I've created a concert series that celebrates underappreciated musicals. I've always been in love with, like, you know, every single musical. It not necessarily has its merit, you know, decided by the length of its run. So, I always, you know, was also inspired by female musical theatre writers, and it kind of all came to a head writing this book.

[3:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: When I started doing the podcast, it was—there were the little stories, like Richard Rodgers' Rehearsal Companist, who is a woman, but who was kind of responsible for the ballet high theme, and—

[4:02] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Trudy Rittman. She's actually in my book, you know.

[4:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Is she?

[4:06] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: There's over, yeah, there's over 300 women in my book, and a lot of them were, like, career musical theatre writers, you know, people who that's the main thing they did. Some were people who had other jobs in the music department that were the main things they did. Some were primarily directors and also writers. A lot of female multi-hyphenates, like Trudy, yeah.

[4:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's incredible. I love that this is the premise of your book, because I think there are so many women behind the scenes. Even, I don't know if you ever touch on choreographers, but I felt like every major director choreographer had a muse in Gwen Verdon, or, you know, I mean, Gwen Verdon for both Jack Cole and freaking Bob Fosse. So, like, there are, it feels like there are always women behind these incredible works, incredible artists, even if they didn't always get the credit.

[4:49] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Totally. And exactly what you said, like, I've always been fascinated by the stories that aren't told, whether that's on lesser appreciated musicals, whether that's on people behind the scenes that don't get as many history books and moments in the history books written about them. And I really was inspired to write Women Writing Musicals because of, you know, the pandemic, as crazy as it sounds, I really was kind of isolated in my apartment, like all of us, and sitting there going like, you know, theater people have survived some crazy times in the past, women have survived some crazy times in the past. And it got me started thinking about some stuff that I had been, you know, researching initially, because of the Untold Stories of Broadway, of like, what were women doing in the 60s? What were women doing during World War Two? What were people in theater doing during the 1921 influenza pandemic? You know, it started me on that path of going into history to kind of feel inspired and heartened in our current times.

[5:37] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: And where are you finding all of this research, by the way, because I spent, you know, a decent amount of time as much as I could afford to look into Fine and Dandy, and there's not a lot, right? So where are you going?

[5:51] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah, so when I started researching, what was crazy was like, I love the New York Public Library more than anything I could talk about.

[5:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You're living in the right city for that.

[5:59] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yes, absolutely. I love the Library of Congress, like libraries are everything to me. But when I did first start researching this book, it was the deep pandemic, you know, it was locked down. So I luckily have like amassed in my years of theater nerdery, a pretty extensive library, and a lot of like online archives, a lot of newspaper archives. But one of my main sources for K. Swift and Fine and Dandy, and I always have to shout it out is this absolutely incredible book written by K. Swift's granddaughter, Catherine Weber. And it's called The Memory of All That: George Gershwin, K. Swift, and My Family's History of Infidelities. Great title, long title, we love it. But it really digs into something that I think I needed to roll over in my brain in order to write my book, which is a lot of women.

Understandably, their narrative is tied to that of a man, whether it's like a partner they wrote with, or you know, someone that they collaborated with, or oh, this person is famous because they worked on a lot of these person's musicals, who's a more famous man. And it was how do you tell those stories and emphasize the women while still being true to the narrative? And you know, K. Swift and George Gershwin's stories are inextricably linked. And that's interesting, and that's valuable. But how do you kind of like focus on K. Swift's story without getting away from the fact that like, it is really tied to George Gershwin?

[7:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, yeah. Okay. Speaking of, I want to set up our listeners a little bit for diving into Fine and Dandy. So last month, I know you all listened, we covered Lady Be Good. And listeners, you'll remember that we talked a lot about 1924, how it was a big year for the Gershwins, not only because of Rhapsody in Blue, which premiered that year, but also Lady Be Good, which was the brothers' first full musical together. Now, from what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, Jen, the next year 1925, George Gershwin gets hired to go play for like socialites at a party in New York. And I guess he would do that at a drop of a hat. Nobody had to really twist his arm. And the party was being thrown by James Paul Warburg, who is this big finance, like respected financial dude, advisor to Franklin D. Roosevelt, and his wife, K. Swift. So he shows up, plays at this party. And that is the beginning of this like epic tale.

[8:06] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah, that's totally true. That's 1925. Everything you said is part of a story that I think would make a really good musical, like the story of K. Swift and George Gershwin. But to back up a little bit further, you know, K. Swift, what's really interesting is before she married James Warburg, she was actually the one who was like, you know, a poor person playing at wealthy people's parties playing the piano, like before that was George Gershwin playing at her party. So K. Swift, her father was a music critic, which is kind of how she got exposed to the arts, but he died at a pretty young age. And she started playing piano, you know, in order to make a living for her and her mother. And so when she eventually married, you know, James Warburg, she was thrust into this society world of wealthy folks that, you know, when she met George Gershwin, he was like a very like-minded soul who had kind of had the same goodness and artist again.

[8:56] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. So she is a trained pianist. Had she really been composing at that point? Or is she improvising?

[9:04] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah, she was composing. She was a pianist. You know, I always love that George Gershwin, and I found out researching my book, George Gershwin did this for K. Swift, but she wasn't the only woman or person that he did this for. George Gershwin thought the best way to train from being like a pianist and a musician to becoming a writer was being a rehearsal pianist for other people's shows. So for K. Swift, he helped her get a job as the rehearsal pianist on A Connecticut Yankee, the Rodgers and Hart show. And that really helped her move forward, you know, as a composer in her own right. Not only does he become kind of a mentor musically, but they also, I mean, fall in love? Question mark?

[9:45] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah. So the crazy story of it is that K. Swift was married, you know, and she had three daughters, and she was married to this like wealthy family. And when she met George Gershwin, you know, they started an affair that was a little bit public knowledge, you know, it was the crazy, you know, 1920s, 1930s. But they really became like musical soulmates. And, you know, most of the Porgy and Bess original music is written in her hand, like he trusted her creatively as much as she trusted him. You know, the Gershwin show, OK, is basically like, you know, named for her.

[10:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my gosh, I didn't even put that together. Of course.

[10:22] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah, they really became inseparable. And what's interesting, you mentioned, you know, James Warburg was eventually FDR's economic advisor during the Great Depression. So, again, this would make a great miniseries, like your husband is going to D.C. to like save the American economy. And meanwhile, like in Manhattan, all this great art that you and your, you know, man, you're having a love affair with who is George Gershwin are creating, you know, is kind of allowed to flourish because your husband is otherwise occupied. It's an interesting story. And, you know, there's so much more to it. I was really taken by the fact that, you know, George Gershwin sadly passed away in his 30s of a brain tumor.

And part of that story is that he and Kay Swift have been having this affair. And at times they considered, you know, getting married. Kay Swift eventually did get divorced, you know, mostly because of her affair with George Gershwin. And when they considered getting married, George Gershwin went off to Hollywood with Ira for a year. And the decision that George and Kay made was like, we're going to not talk for a year. He's going to go to Hollywood. And after a year, if we really feel like we should be together, we're going to get married and we're going to do this. And George Gershwin passed away of that brain tumor in his 30s in Hollywood. So there's like, I mean, it's the most tragic thing I've ever heard.

It's like an epic love story. You kind of can't believe it's true. But the beautiful thing is like Kay Swift not only spent a lot of the rest of her life carrying on George Gershwin's legacy, in addition to continuing to write herself. You know, she was the composer in Residence of Radio City. She wrote a really cool show called Paris 90 that went to Broadway. But she really she lived into her 90s. She carried on George Gershwin's legacy. She married like a rodeo star and eventually wrote a book about that, that she called Who Could Ask for Anything More after a Gershwin lyric. She's like a very fascinating lady with lots of levels to her love life.

[11:58] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: 100%. And so she died in 92, 93?

[12:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. So yeah, lived a long, long life. Now, despite living a long life, so much of her work. How do I say this? I mean, Gershwin lived until the 30s. And nobody has a hard time finding a Gershwin song. And yet, here's Kay Swift, who's lived a long, long time and people don't know her at all. Some people know some of her songs, Can't We Be Friends was recorded by a lot of, you know, famous folks, like her songs have been recorded for everyone. It brings Sinatra, Peggy Lee. But the thing is, you know, it, at the time, one thing that I was fascinated by writing my book is people did not make a big deal when Fine & Dandy was the first full-length hit Broadway musical composed by a woman. It was a hit musical, and it kind of stood on its own merits. But at the time, I think the journalism wasn't as focused on like identity. And it was a big deal, but it really wasn't chronicled at the time.

[13:01] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Welcome to A Musical Theatre Podcast! I'm your host, Jeffrey Scott Parsons, and today we have a fascinating episode lined up for you. We're diving into the musical "Fine and Dandy," which has one of the most incredible backstories in musical theatre history.

[13:31] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: This musical was composed during the Great Depression by a woman who was not only working on a Broadway score with her husband but also navigating a complex relationship with one of the biggest composers of all time. It's a story that goes beyond the title and reveals so much about the human experience.

[13:51] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Joining me today is the talented producer and musical theatre historian, Jennifer Ashley Tepper. She's known for her work at 54 Below and for the hit musical "Be More Chill." Jennifer, thank you for being here!

[14:11] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: I'm excited to explore "Fine and Dandy" with you, Jeff. This musical is a gem that deserves more recognition, and I can't wait to share its history and significance.

[14:31] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: The story of Kay Swift, the composer, is particularly compelling. She was a trailblazer in a time when women were often overlooked in the industry. Her contributions to musical theatre are profound, and "Fine and Dandy" showcases her talent beautifully.

[14:51] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: It's interesting to note that while she was creating this score, her husband was working closely with the US president. The juxtaposition of their lives during such a tumultuous time adds layers to the narrative of the musical.

[15:11] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: The score itself is delightful, filled with charm and wit. It reflects the era in which it was created while also being timeless in its appeal. I think listeners will find it resonates with them even today.

[15:31] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: I also recommend checking out the 2004 World Premier Recording of "Fine and Dandy," which is available on platforms like Spotify and Apple Music. It's a great way to experience the music firsthand.

[15:51] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: And for those interested in learning more about Kay Swift's life and legacy, her granddaughter's book, "The Memory of All That," offers a fascinating insight into her family history and the complexities of her relationships.

[16:11] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Before we dive deeper into the musical, I want to remind our listeners to check out last month's episode on "Lady, Be Good!" with William A. Everett. There are some inspiring connections between the two shows that you won't want to miss.

[16:31] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: So, Jeff, where would you like to start our discussion about "Fine and Dandy"?

[16:51] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: I think it's essential to highlight the context in which this musical was created. The Great Depression was a challenging time for many, and yet, through music and storytelling, Kay Swift and her collaborators found a way to uplift and entertain.

[17:11] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: The themes in "Fine and Dandy" are incredibly relevant, even in today's world. It speaks to resilience, love, and the pursuit of happiness, which are universal experiences that everyone can relate to.

[17:31] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: As we explore the characters and their journeys, I think listeners will appreciate how the musical captures the essence of human emotions and relationships.

[17:51] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: I'm excited to share some of the standout songs from the score. Each number tells a story and adds depth to the characters, making the musical a rich tapestry of experiences.

[18:11] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Let's talk about some of the key musical numbers that really showcase Kay Swift's talent as a composer. The melodies are catchy, and the lyrics are clever, making them memorable and impactful.

[18:31] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: One of my favorite songs from the show is "Fine and Dandy," which perfectly encapsulates the spirit of the musical. It's upbeat and fun, yet it also carries a deeper message about finding joy in difficult times.

[18:51] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Another standout is "The Coconut Tree," which has a whimsical quality that transports the audience to a different world. It's a great example of how Swift used humor and imagination in her writing.

[19:11] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: As we discuss these songs, I encourage our listeners to think about how they relate to the themes of the musical and what they evoke in terms of personal experiences.

[19:31] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: The interplay between the characters and the music is what makes "Fine and Dandy" so special. Each song serves a purpose in advancing the story and developing the characters.

[19:51] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: I'm thrilled to be sharing this musical with our audience today. It's a hidden gem that deserves to be celebrated and remembered in the canon of musical theatre.

[20:11] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: So, Jeff, what do you think are some of the most significant takeaways from "Fine and Dandy" that we can share with our listeners?

[20:31] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: I believe one of the key messages is the importance of perseverance and creativity in the face of adversity. Kay Swift's journey is a testament to that, and it's something that resonates with artists and audiences alike.

[20:51] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Additionally, the musical highlights the power of collaboration and the magic that can happen when talented individuals come together to create something beautiful.

[21:11] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: It's also a reminder of the rich history of women in musical theatre, and how their contributions have shaped the art form we love today. We need to continue to uplift and recognize these voices.

[21:31] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: As we wrap up our discussion, I hope our listeners feel inspired to explore "Fine and Dandy" further and appreciate the legacy of Kay Swift and her work.

[21:51] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Thank you for joining us today, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this incredible musical!

[22:11] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Don't forget to check out my new book, "Women Writing Musicals: The Legacy That the History Books Left Out," available for pre-order on Amazon. It's a deep dive into the contributions of women in the musical theatre landscape.

[22:31] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: And be sure to follow me on social media at @jenashtep on Instagram, TikTok, and X for more insights and updates on musical theatre history.

[22:51] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Thank you for being part of our community, and I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did!

[26:03] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: I think they changed what they're making for the current licensed version, so I'll have to remember. Yeah, now they're making shoes, but that wasn't what it was. Now they're making shoes. Were they just making nonsense before? Possibly. The fact that I know every detail about K-Swift but can't remember that is emblematic of that it wasn't focused on the plot, it was focused on the songs. But the basic plot involves this widowed woman who takes over her husband's factory, her late husband's factory, and basically the romantic entanglements that she and her daughter get into with factory workers, and one of them being Joe. And the plot starts out and you're like, okay, this is a plot. And then by the fourth sentence, as I would explain it to you, it's like this person loves that person, and they love that person, and that person gets promoted in the factory.

And you're just like, okay, there's 14 people that all love... And then the secretary loves him, and then the son loves... And it's just a romantic, zany set of entanglements, essentially, all set in this factory.

[26:57] Jeff: Yeah, and I want to say that it's written, like the book, it's a two-act musical comedy, written by Donald Ogden Stewart. And everyone's like, who? But like, step back everybody, Donald Ogden Stewart, responsible for the Philadelphia story? I mean, maybe like one of the most influential rom-com writers in history.

[27:20] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah, and that's why the book, I think it was praised a lot in 1930, and he was part of the Algonquin Roundtable. He was a very respected, intelligent writer of many different forms, and he eventually became mostly known as a screenwriter. But Fine and Dandy was as much his work as it was K. Swift and Paul James.

[27:42] Jeff: At this factory, we got some stock characters that we'll just discuss. We got the widow, who's the owner. She has a daughter named Maribel, our typical 1930s ingenue. Then there is a guy who becomes the male ingenue, and he is a Yale graduate, a factory employee. Right away, we see that, oh, she has money because her family owns this factory. He's a go-get-em American boy graduate from college who wants to climb the ladder and fall in love with her, right? So that's kind of like one little plot.

[28:26] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah, and these archetypes, like you mentioned, they involve class and they involve money in a way that would have felt really relevant in 1930. Incredibly, absolutely. Then we got the Joe Cook character who's named Joe Squibb. Joe Squibb, hilarious. Amazing, I know. Every time that I have gone through my notes and I just catch the name Joe Squibb, I think of June Squibb, which now, do I want to see a revival of Fine and Dandy with June Squibb? Possibly. Here's the thing. He is this former mechanic. He's kind of nothing at the factory. All of these weird instances, which just happen to showcase Joe Cook's crazy set of skills, all of these weird little accidents and things end up getting him the next promotion and the next promotion. He has card tricks and that impresses the widow, and so she's like, you're the new general manager.

[29:27] Jeff: Yeah. It's a constant series of like, but it all works out for his betterment. Yes. At one point I read a review that was like, one of the ways he got promoted to the next round was like, he outsmarts a toothless man eating a sandwich. I was literally like, what is this plot? It was an excuse for Joe Cook's specialty act. It was an excuse for great songs. At the time, it was like, how do we make this audience happy? But it's not about the social importance of the story in a very deep way.

[29:57] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah. Underneath it all is this social satire, the social commentary, the capitalism commentary, which I think is always prevalent through musical theater. It's really fun. I was saying in a recent episode that my new requirement for enjoying a show, regardless of how important or soulful or relevant it is, is that it's got to be entertaining. I am at that point right now where I really need to be entertained. It seems like people were with this thing. Joy and entertainment are such a good delivery mechanism. I always think of that part in Merrily where musicals are a great way to say important things. They're thinking about traditional musical comedy somewhat in that. It's like you might go home and be thinking about the social classes or intergenerational conflict because you had so much fun responding to just the joy and fine and dandy. It's a delivery mechanism. Great point. Love it. Just got chills.

[30:53] Jeff: Okay, so Jo has a love interest. Her name's Nancy. Nancy just happens to be the sister of Mr. Ingenue. Yes, exactly. The Yale graduate comes into this factory with his sister already an employee. She is engaged to an assistant manager, but we all know that she's probably going to end up with Joe Cook. You're articulating really well what I was talking about, which is like, if we were all watching this, I think we'd be like, oh, that person, that, but like just going through the plot, you're like, that's a lot of love triangles.

[31:33] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, we're in full like trapezoid, crazy geometry. The other character that I want to just bring up real fast is Miss Hunter, who is like the company secretary. She's sexy. She's sassy. She knows how to tap dance and originally played on Broadway by one of my all-time heroes. I mean, truly, I love Astaire. I love Gene Kelly. But Eleanor Powell is one of my tap dancing idols, period.

[32:04] Jeff: Yeah, yeah. Incredible. And she was playing and she was in this originally.

[32:10] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah, tap dancing up a storm, I believe. I mean, how could she not? Yeah, my gosh. That's kind of the main plot. You can imagine who gets together with who, right? Joe Cook and the sister end up together. The two ingenues end up together. And then the funny last minute wedding is the widow. And is it the fiancé like Nancy, like the old assistant manager? I think that's correct. As you're describing this, it sounds so much to me like the drowsy chaperone, which of course is satirizing musicals of that era. And it's like this person marrying this person and like you can barely keep it straight.

[32:51] Jeff: Yeah, 100%. And it all happens in like the last 30 seconds of the show and curtain. The other thing in addition to the comedy are these amazing songs. So I want to go through some of the score. And I want to hear about some of your favorites. For me, I don't know how you feel. But for me, sometimes it's hard to hook me with an ingenue duet, because they all kind of sound the same. And they're all wistful. And maybe milquetoast a little bit is the word I'd use. But I love the Rich or Poor song.

[33:24] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: For the two ingenues. I love the starting at the bottom song. It's because there is a little bit of that Great Depression undercurrent that creates some tension, right? Yeah, of social class of not being where you want to be of ambition. It makes them a little bit more energetic than I think other songs. And I think just the plot that you described that we were talking about, like they allowed everyone to be a little bit zany. So even the ingenues are getting some pretty funny material. And that echoes in the songs as well. The Let's Go Eat Worms in the Garden song that I mentioned, which I just love. And on the album, I'm like giggling at Gavin Creel singing it. But the lyric is like, I love someone that don't love me.

You love someone that don't love you. Let's go eat worms in the garden. And like, I just said that is my favorite lyric being like, it doesn't rhyme. I mean, the score does have a lot of perfect rhymes. But when you hear this like syncopated jazz age version of these like kind of ridiculous, it's so they're so catchy. They're so fun. And they're original, you know, it's it's not quite at the point where the songs are truly like, you can only have them in Fine and Dandy. They're fully integrated. You couldn't put them in another musical. It's still 1930. But they are really unique unto themselves. Like Paul James had this like unique voice that, you know, even the title song, it's so musically fascinating.

And my favorite part of Fine and Dandy, and I really think even if I didn't know who wrote what, but it's the music. It's like Fine and Dandy. It's so just the score is thrilling and driving and like active in this way that it's just so fun to listen to shout out to K-Swift.

[35:05] Jeff: The zany quality I think is the other real driving energy here. I totally agree. Let's talk a little bit about Hubby's lyrics. What do you think? Because like, this is a dude in finance. And as much as he's the other man in our preferred love story, he's doing just fine as a lyricist.

[35:25] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah, totally. And it's also like, I mean, again, like, of course, romanticize the K-Swift George Gershwin story, and it's fascinating. But like, who knows, you know, we all know, like the nuance and complicated nature of these things. And sitting here decades later, not involved in it. I'm like, you know, like, I think there was a lot of love there between them as well. He was obviously a very creative, gifted lyricist. He also was like, really interested in and invested in the arts. And, you know, they had a family together. There's, there's a more complicated story that I think, again, would make a fantastic miniseries. I would love to watch that. You got to produce it. That's what's gonna, I mean, that's what it has to be.

[36:01] Jeff: Yeah, James Warburg, you know, led a fascinating life as well. And again, like, think about being someone who's writing a musical during the Great Depression, and then also trying to like help save the economy during the Great Depression. Like, that's a fascinating story. And I find that a person who can do both just in terms of personalities is a unique individual. We often talk about dating other artists versus dating muggles, you know. And sometimes you need somebody in your life who is like the financier, but to find a financier who can also, you know, come up with a pretty fantastic rhyme, like, more power to you, Kay Swift.

[36:33] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: I love... Oh, go ahead.

[36:38] Jeff: Oh, no, go ahead.

[36:39] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Well, I was just gonna say, I also love that quote from the granddaughter that says, you know, some married couples have a baby to save their marriage, and my grandparents had a musical. Like, come on, that is fantastic. Incredible quote. It's also just so interesting to me that, like, at the time, you know, we know what history was like. We know what marriage was like. We understand, like, society. And at the time, how many men were cheating on their wives, how many marriages were open because of what men were doing. And the fact that there's such a headline because it was a woman who was kind of like publicly, openly, you know, having an affair, and because it was George Gershwin, it's fascinating.

But it's also like, it's, it just points to like the double standard of like, you know, we don't insert famous musical theater male writer who had many affairs outside his marriage. And like, it's not a headline. And we don't know who those women were. And it's not that much part of the story. It's just like, it's always interesting to me to like, zoom out of that and be like, yeah, but because she was a woman, and because it was George Gershwin, it's a big part of the story.

[37:38] Jeff: Do you think that she was looked down upon because of it? Like, was there any sort of nepo baby, you know, for lack of a better term? View on her like, oh, she's just writing the coattails of some dude that she's having an affair with?

[37:50] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Not quite. But I do think the interesting thing about it that you bring up is like a lot of women were only given a seat at the table to write musicals or contribute to theater if a male relative gave them one, whether that was a brother, a father, an uncle, or like an affair with theirs. It's throughout the decades, you see that. And again, you never want to make the story about that. And like all of those women are talented and deserve a seat at the table on their own merits and had to work very hard to stay there. But just because of how society like worked, a lot of the time, you're like, oh, you know, we know who that is, because she collaborated with her breath. Like, there's a lot of that throughout.

It wasn't really looked at the nepo baby discourse was different. And it's really interesting to think about how that's evolved because of inequity in America and like social injustice. But I'm laughing because it's so ridiculous. But we don't have more, you know, equity. But it's interesting that it used to be like, oh, they're going into the family business. That's really wonderful. And sometimes that was farming. And sometimes that was being a stagehand. And sometimes that was writing. But it was like the family business. And it's a beautiful thing. And it's legacy. And it's training the generations. And then this negative, you know, connotation creeping in of like, but that's giving opportunities to people that come from a certain.

[39:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome back to A Musical Theatre Podcast. Today, we’re diving into the fascinating world of FINE AND DANDY with our guest, Jennifer Ashley Tepper.

[39:35] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Thank you for having me! I’m so excited to talk about this musical and its incredible backstory.

[39:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It really is one of the all-time great stories in musical theatre history. Can you give us a little background on the creators?

[40:15] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Absolutely! FINE AND DANDY was composed by Kay Swift, who was a groundbreaking female composer, and her husband, who was working closely with President Franklin D. Roosevelt during the Great Depression. It’s a remarkable story of love and creativity.

[40:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And there’s also the element of her relationship with George Gershwin, which adds another layer to the narrative.

[40:45] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yes, that’s right! Kay Swift had a significant relationship with Gershwin, and it influenced her work and her life in profound ways.

[41:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: What can you tell us about the score? It’s often described as “fine and dandy,” but there’s so much more to it.

[41:23] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: The score is delightful and sophisticated, showcasing Swift’s unique voice and her ability to blend different musical styles. It’s playful yet deeply emotional.

[41:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I love that! It’s fascinating how the context of its creation during the Great Depression impacts the music and lyrics.

[41:53] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Exactly! The themes of resilience and hope resonate throughout the score, reflecting the struggles of the time.

[42:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And the characters are quite interesting as well. Can you share a bit about them?

[42:33] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: The characters are vibrant and relatable, each with their own dreams and challenges. They navigate love and ambition in a way that feels timeless.

[42:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It sounds like a rich tapestry of storytelling. What do you think makes FINE AND DANDY stand out in musical theatre history?

[43:13] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Its unique perspective as a work by a female composer during a time when women were often overlooked in the industry is a huge part of its significance. It’s a celebration of creativity and resilience.

[43:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely. And it’s great that we’re finally giving it the attention it deserves.

[43:53] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yes! There’s so much to explore, and I hope more people discover this gem.

[44:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: For those who want to listen to the score, where can they find it?

[44:33] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: You can find the 2004 World Premier Recording of FINE AND DANDY on Spotify and Apple Music.

[44:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Perfect! And I know you have a new book coming out as well. Can you tell us about that?

[45:13] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yes! My book is titled Women Writing Musicals: The Legacy That the History Books Left Out, and it highlights the contributions of women in musical theatre history.

[45:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That sounds incredible! I can’t wait to read it.

[45:53] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Thank you! I’m really passionate about bringing these stories to light.

[46:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And for our listeners, how can they follow you and your work?

[46:33] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: You can find me on Instagram, TikTok, and X @jenashtep. I love connecting with fellow musical theatre enthusiasts!

[46:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Fantastic! And for those interested in learning more about Kay Swift, there’s a great book by her granddaughter.

[47:13] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yes, it’s called The Memory of All That: George Gershwin, Kay Swift, and My Family's Legacy of Infidelities. It offers a personal look at Kay’s life and her legacy.

[47:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thank you for sharing that. It’s so important to keep these stories alive.

[47:53] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Absolutely! The more we know about our history, the better we can appreciate the art form today.

[48:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Before we wrap up, have you given "A Musical Theatre Podcast" a nice review yet?

[48:33] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: If you haven’t, now’s the time! It really helps us reach more listeners.

[48:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And if you’re interested in supporting the podcast, consider joining us on Patreon for just a dollar!

[49:13] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yes! We have some great content there, and it’s a wonderful way to connect with the community.

[49:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And don’t forget to check out our TeePublic shop, where we donate profits to Broadway Cares/Equity Fights AIDS.

[49:43] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: It’s a great cause, and you can get some fun merchandise while supporting it!

[49:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thank you so much for joining us today, Jennifer. It’s been a pleasure discussing FINE AND DANDY with you.

[50:13] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Thank you for having me! I had a wonderful time.

[50:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And thank you to our listeners for tuning in. We’ll see you next time on A Musical Theatre Podcast!

[50:53] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Bye!

[51:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Bye!

[51:33] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Bye!

[51:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Bye!

[51:53] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Bye!