This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Joe Iconis: I'm a writer, a writer of songs, pretty little ditties and sing-alongs.

[0:06] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Hi, I'm Jennifer Ashley Tepper. And I'm Joe Iconis. And you're listening to the ALBUM PODCAST.

[0:14] Joe Iconis: Today we're going to be talking about "Right Place, Wrong Time," a song by Katrina Rose Dideriksen and Eric William Morris. This song is sad, it's exciting, it's got twists and turns. It's a great episode. It's a great episode. And it's yeah, this song is the song that I always say is my most autobiographical. So listen to the episode and you'll hear why. And then check in on Joe. Make sure he's doing okay. Right Place, Wrong Time. Right Place Slash Wrong Time.

[0:54] Joe Iconis: So this is a song that was originated by and is performed on the album by the same two folks, Frequent Collaborators. Where shall we start? Where do we start? Well, yeah, let's start with the people. Yeah, we'll talk about the song. So the people are Eric William Morris. Is this the first time we've spoken about him on ALBUM PODCAST?

[1:17] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: I believe so. Although he's certainly on the album a lot. But I guess his songs are towards the second half of the album.

[1:22] Joe Iconis: Yeah, yeah. He sort of makes his first appearance here. I guess. Eric William Morris is someone who is one of my best friends.

[1:34] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: You just sounded like you were six years old.

[1:40] Joe Iconis: I was very one of my best friends. We share crayons every recess. And one of my most frequent collaborators. And he is another one who I met through auditions.

[1:49] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah.

[1:49] Joe Iconis: Eric auditioned for the workshop production of The Black Suits at SPF at the Public Theater in 2008. I had never seen him before. Eric walked in the room and he auditioned for the role of John Amoroso. And he was he was really good. But and I've talked about this before. I immediately was like, Oh, this guy's too handsome. Get out of here. I immediately in my brain was just like, I don't want to. I'm like, I'm not doing that. Get go go somewhere else, buddy. Because I had this idea, you know, like art is real. And I need people who look like people, not this model handsome guy, handsome son of a bitch coming in here.

[2:41] Joe Iconis: And so I really counted him out. John Simpkins, the director was really like, I think he's really good. Like, he's really he's really got something. And so I remember he came back and I was just like, I just don't know. I just don't know. And then it was Jason Tam. Jason Tam played the role.

[3:00] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Also very handsome.

[3:00] Joe Iconis: Yeah. Also beautifully handsome. Yeah. But it was always I just wanted Jason Tam, you know, like I was just right. And it was like we were doing this exercise of like, we got to see these new actors. It's like it should be Jason Tam. And he was so beautiful and he was he was great. But so that happened. So then we were doing a run of Things to Ruin and we were short this one guy, this one, you know, this one role. And so we had auditions and people auditioned and nobody really felt right to me. And then John Simpkins must have been the person who was like, what about that Eric William Morris guy? And I remember being like, OK, cool.

[3:39] Joe Iconis: And so we auditioned Eric, which at the time was literally a room. And I believe we were rehearsing Planted a Dirty Socks, maybe or maybe that was a different thing. Well, this was the run of Things that happened in the Zipper Factory, right?

[3:55] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yes.

[3:55] Joe Iconis: Yeah. And no, our auditions were at Ars Nova. And so it was like me behind the table, John behind the table. And then Jason Williams was like running the auditions. So he was like calling people in and then he was like sitting behind the table and watching. It truly is something where it's like if like I feel like if anyone tried to do that today, they would immediately be canceled. It sounds like it sounds like a Curb Your Enthusiasm episode where you set up a fake audition because you wanted to audition one person.

[4:28] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Right. You wanted to look real.

[4:28] Joe Iconis: Literally, that's what it was. And so Eric auditioned and it was like, OK, OK, this guy's pretty good. It's pretty good. I liked him. After our first rehearsal, we were rehearsing downtown. It must have been we must have been rehearsing at NYU. And I said to Eric, would you want to would you want to get a drink or something after rehearsal? And he was like, OK, yeah. And Eric has talked about this. And he was like he felt like that was his real audition. Like he felt like me and John and Jason, we all want to get a drink. We're like, like, what's this guy's deal? Is he cool or not?

[5:08] Joe Iconis: And we went to we went to it used to be called Boxers on on 4th Street right by the little park there. And now it's the Spaniard. But we went there and we had some drinks and got to know Eric. And truly, it's been like no looking back ever since. And he's, you know, the leading man of my dreams. He was in he was in Blood Song of Love as the musician and he was in Be More Chill at Two River as the squip. And he's done a million things with me. He's Mr. McAbee in The Christmas Show. And and he's remained as handsome as ever. He's actually gotten more classically handsome as he's aged.

[5:49] Joe Iconis: But the thing that I love about him is that he is like 100 percent like a character man trapped in a leading man's body, which provides such an incredible tension to all of his performances and in a way that is is is is inescapable. It's hard to articulate, but that speaks to your thing of like you wish that people could meet not in auditions because it's almost impossible to portray that in audition to like show all of those parts of you.

[6:21] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah, of course.

[6:21] Joe Iconis: And so you wouldn't know it until you saw someone perform and like worked with them in a room.

[6:24] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah. But yeah, no, that is very true. Like Eric, he has so many like shades to every performance. But you think you're going to get a handsome leading man and then you get so much more.

[6:35] Joe Iconis: Yeah. Yeah. And he just I mean, he can succeed as the handsome leading man. He did Mamma Mia and not Mamma Mia Murders. Spoiler for another episode of the podcast.

[6:46] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Mamma Mia.

[6:46] Joe Iconis: He did the original. He did Mamma Mia one. Yeah. But yeah, he can do that. He's very adept at doing that. But he's just so interesting. And he, you know, he can just he can do so many things. And, you know, listen, like Eric, he's done a million. You know, he's the lead in King Kong. He was the human lead in King Kong. King Kong is the lead of King Kong. But he you know, he did that on Broadway. He's he's, you know, he's in movies and TV and a million things. And still, I just think there Eric Waymore should never, ever, ever be unemployed. He should just go from thing to thing to thing as much as he wants to.

[7:20] Joe Iconis: Anytime I see a show on Broadway and there is a role that Eric could even remotely play and he's not playing it, I want to throttle the creative team. Like truly. There was a show that was just announced with the casting. There's like there's a male lead that literally I read it and I went like out loud publicly because it's the most like that's the most boring casting I've ever read in my life. And it should be Eric Waymore. And I know that he will eventually be that person who's just in every fucking thing. But and I just want it selfishly because I want to see it. And I'm also already angry at all the things that will take him away from my work. But I'm always happy to work with him as long as he'll have me.

[8:06] Joe Iconis: So we've already talked about Katrina Rose Dideriksen in terms of like the actress, but bringing the two of them together for this song when, you know, I feel like I because of Blood Song of Love and because like I've heard their voices together on so many songs and shows of yours, it just feels so like, oh, wait, is this not a song that didn't already exist? Like it almost feels like, wait, like when it happened, it was like, wait, this feels it doesn't make sense.

[8:26] Joe Iconis: It felt like it already existed.

[8:30] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah, no, it really. Yes, I agree with you. And and this is a song where their shared history, I think, actually kind of informs the writing of it. Because as I was writing it, I kind of knew that I wanted it for the two of them. And it helped it added to the whole the whole thing, you know, and I also I love that in Blood Song, they were, you know, Katrina played multiple roles. There's a lot of doubling in Blood Song, except for the musician, which is Eric's part. And, you know, her first role as the wife of Banana, at the top of the show, she was very adversarial towards him. And they, you know, they have a sort of gun standoff.

[9:10] Joe Iconis: And then at the end of the show, she plays a character who the musician is very kind to. But I do always think of her as first as like the wife of Banana, I think of her as this woman who's trying to literally murder the musician, he's trying to shoot him, because he's come to like take away her man. And played by Lance Rubin.

[9:36] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah.

[9:36] Joe Iconis: And to bring them together in this, you know, duet where they're, they really are two people on the same wavelength, you know, it's like they're two people who are just like, in sync. That's something that they never quite did in Blood Song.

[9:48] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: But yeah, but as you said, it feels like how's this not existed?

[9:53] Joe Iconis: Yeah. So without any spoilers, this is also a song that does have a twist where maybe maybe it ends up how people I guess that's a spoiler in itself. But I guess I just think it's a good idea.

[10:04] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Okay.

[10:04] Joe Iconis: Yeah. If you if you're listening to this, and you haven't listened to the song, stop. It'll be a better experience. Song first, podcast second, you want to listen to the like, you know, director's commentary before the movie.

[10:13] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: But I feel like this is a twist that is surprising even as a twist, because you're like, wait, what, like, I'm sad about this song.

[10:20] Joe Iconis: Yeah, you know, this song, this song is one that I frequently come back to when people ask me which of my songs is my favorite. And I always I always say starting to forget, which is one of the first songs I ever wrote first real songs ever wrote. That's later on in the album. But this this one "Right Place, Wrong Time" is, is as close to a favorite song of my own as I have. And I think that that it's a it's a few reasons. It's because it's exactly what I intended it to be. When I sort of had the idea for it. I the idea was in my head for a really long time. And it was and I wasn't able to articulate the idea. I knew I wanted to write something that was about that was about feeling sort of stuck and feeling like you're you're waiting for your your your ship to come in and you don't think it's coming in.

[11:20] Joe Iconis: And, and I actually I had, I had a song with ship imagery that was kind of like, you know, circling around in my brain, and I couldn't quite make it work. And, and, and, and then once I kind of hit upon this idea of like a writer and a singer, and it's a duet, and it's this kind of like throwback country song, that just something just clicked about it. And then when I realized that I wanted to kill him, sort of towards the end of the song at her hand, that that's when everything made sense. And that's when I, that's when I was like, okay, this is what the song is. And the way that song turned out is like, what I dreamed it would be. It's just exactly what I wanted to say with the song.

[12:05] Joe Iconis: And so it's a favorite. And also, you know, something that's so funny, like people also always, always, always ask me about, you know, like songs that they think are really personal, songs that they think are autobiographical. And the ones they always think are autobiographical are the ones where it's like, you know, the pronouns I are, you know, being used in there. And I'm talking about, you know, myself as a writer, like the song, all the mistakes that I made about the girl. And, and "Right Place, Wrong Time," when I listen to it, even still, I feel like this is as autobiographical a song as I have ever, ever, ever, ever, ever written. And it is just it is exactly how I felt when I wrote it in 2016.

And it's in the times in my life, when when I feel like frustrated, and when I feel when I feel like not where I want to be, and like, I'm fighting an uphill battle, which is how I feel right now, in the, as I as I record this podcast, it is like exactly what I'm feeling what is expressed in the song, both the words that they say and the actual story of the song, and how it unfolds and how it actually feels. That that's just that's just what it is. And so that's why I think I keep always come back to it as like a song that I love, because it's just it remains just true. And it's like the ultimate, I don't know if it's good, I don't know if it's bad. But I know it's exactly what I want to say.

[13:36] Joe Iconis: Yeah. Um, how much when you're writing a song where you have specific actors, like Eric and Katrina, in this case, in mind, how much are you shaping it around their voices musically versus like lyrics, character, what the song is?

[13:50] Joe Iconis: Um, I'm, uh, I think in the in the initial writing, it's more about the, or it is, it's about the lyrics and the character. I'm not really thinking about, well, I know, Eric can sing this note, and this is range. And I know Katrina can sing this note, and this is her range. I'm just thinking about the characters. I'm thinking about the story. And I just want to get the story told. Because in this particular song, she's a singer, I knew that I wanted to be able to give her an opportunity to do some, you know, in your face singing, because it felt like it would only serve the story of the song. But that kind of comes later. I'm sure and I and I know them well enough, or I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna write the song, it's the end, and then we're gonna get in a room.

And then we'll figure out vocally, what happens. And then we'll shape that. And it's that that's sort of what happened at the end of the song, where I knew, okay, you know, they're gonna do, they'll do something exciting here as the kind of culmination of this, of this song event.

[14:49] Joe Iconis: Yeah, but yeah, it's like the lyrics and the characters first, and then I worry about the music later. Right. It's interesting, because I also feel like and the other time we've talked about Katrina a lot on the album as the actress, and that might be one of the major exceptions to this, because what the song is about is partially like the way that Katrina can sing. So it's like more integral to the lyrics and the plot.

[15:07] Joe Iconis: Yeah, yeah. I mean, and also, because, you know, it's like, because the song is about the song is about, you know, people who are perfectly talented, they just were born on the wrong day, you know, and and so I think it's the song itself, it only makes more sense when the singer has a great voice when her talent is so obvious when her talent is so like, it's right there, we can all hear it, and we're all excited by it, and we're all cheering for it, and it doesn't matter at all. It has nothing to do with that, because, you know, as Abigail Pogerman says in the in the movie, you know, art is not a meritocracy, like that's not what this business is. Right. And just because you're the most talented person, the most wonderful person with the best intentions, with the the most exquisite, you know, god-given talent, it doesn't mean that you're gonna be able to do the thing you want to do.

It doesn't mean you're gonna be able to get the place that you want to get, which is a really ugly truth, but it just is, you know, and it's like, whenever I hear, whenever I listen to the song, and whenever I, you know, get excited about Katrina singing, I always think of "Cabaret," which is my favorite musical, and how people, you know, always talk about how it doesn't make sense in "Cabaret" when Sally has a great voice, which is why, you know, it's, you know, Sally should be cast with not a great singer, because if she has this great of a voice, what is she doing singing in a shitty club like the Kit Kat Club? And this idea of, like, why would Liza Minnelli be singing in a shitty club like the Kit Kat Club?

I just so don't agree, and I think it makes it even sadder, because I think that is the reality. I think that there are, there are countless people who are, who are performing in, in awful places. There are countless people who are performing in their bedrooms who we don't even know about, who we'll never know about, because the circumstances of their lives are such that they don't get to show their talent, and whether that's, you know, personal things that are stopping them, or whether that's, you know, they're not getting hired for things, and then eventually they don't get hired, and they die, you know, that's what it is, and I think that is just the reality of this, of this, this business, and so, yeah, so it, it, it makes, you know, sense to me, and that's the sort of underlying thing that fuels this.

[17:23] Joe Iconis: Or it's like, I also think part of the tragedy, and definitely when you have someone like Eliza Minnelli in "Cabaret," it's, we as an audience see that person's talent, and the other characters in the show don't see that person's talent, and that's part of the tragedy, yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's like, it's unappreciated, and we know, and it's like, we want to, like, jump through the screen, and be like, would you, don't treat her like that, you know, go give her name to a talent agent or something, but it doesn't, it doesn't always happen. Sometimes it does, and that's, and sometimes it does, like, that's the, you know, that's the hope, and that's the thing that certainly I hang on to. It's like, well, what if it's different?

And a lot of people who I know, who haven't gotten to the place they want to be, that's what they hang on to, and it's like, well, maybe, you know, because that's the magic thing about it, there's no rules, so it's like, yeah, your life can change in an instant, and your life can change in an instant, and you can end up, you know, on Broadway, and your life can change in an instant, and you can end up run over.

[18:11] Joe Iconis: Sure, yeah, this song makes me think of, I feel like, in a world where you ever did a version of an album or a concert where it was, like, Joe Iconis goes, and it was country, or it was, you know, some kind of, I'm saying country, because that's what I think it is, but, like, if you were to ever take your work and kind of filter it, like, more fully through one genre as a lens, like, would it be country? Like, folk country? Like, what kind of genre would it be?

[18:36] Joe Iconis: Because, I don't know, I just always think of this song as being, like, the entree into, like, some other Dolly Parton-esque style.

[18:46] Joe Iconis: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I do, there is something about country music, and, you know, "Bloodsong" is a show that is, it's country-tinged, for sure, but it's not sort of whole hog country. There's, like, mariachi in that show, and there's, you know, and blues, and I do really love country music, and Dolly Parton is, you know, my favorite songwriter, if I had to pick one, and I love the storytelling of country music, and I love the actual, the sonic world of older country music, for sure.

[19:09] Joe Iconis: Yeah, there's just something so evocative about that, and I would love to write more in that world, and I have, and it is, it's funny, I feel like my natural inclination when I'm writing is to either go to, like, this this very melodic pop place, pop rock sort of, but with stuff like "Yesterdays," or songs like even "The Answer" or something, this very melodic pop, it's like Weezer, it's like Fountains of Wayne, that sort of thing, it's that, or it's country music. It's sort of folky, like, even though I write on piano, I, a lot of times, I'm sort of imitating acoustic guitar patterns, you know, and that's what you hear more on, like, "52," or, you know, like, "The Whiskey Song," which isn't on this album, but, and it's just sort of where I live when I'm, like, trying to write something that's telling a story, and then, and if, and unless the story and the characters are really dictating a style to me, it's usually going to be one of those two, and so, which is to say that, yeah, I would love to write even more in the country, you know, idiom.

[20:33] Joe Iconis: Is it true that, like, Katrina and Eric have only performed this? Am I forgetting some?

[20:38] Joe Iconis: No, you know who performed it? Daniel Gimbel performed it once.

[20:42] Joe Iconis: Oh my god, she did, and it was amazing, and it also was, like, wasn't it, it was last minute?

[20:48] Joe Iconis: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course she did.

[20:55] Joe Iconis: Yeah, the incredible Daniel Gimbel. Music copyist? Performer, yes, of course. Music coordinator, performer. And those are the only people that have performed it.

[20:59] Joe Iconis: I think so, yeah.

[21:04] Joe Iconis: Yeah, I don't think another guy has ever performed it. Maybe I should stop asking this, because inevitably one of us, usually me, has forgotten one performance of a song.

[21:11] Joe Iconis: That's right, everyone, yeah, everyone listening, please be kind to us.

[21:20] Joe Iconis: Yeah, I don't think anyone else ever performed it. It was written after, like, all of the things where, like, oh, you know, like, it was never done at NYU in the Showcase. It was never done by, like, a one-off performer.

[21:27] Joe Iconis: Yeah, it's only lived in concerts, and, yeah, and I actually also, I remember the first time that we did it, which was at the string of shows we did in 2016 at 54 Below. It was the string of shows where Betty Buckley did "Old Flame." I remember, as we were doing it for that first time, me being at the piano at 54 Below, and even, and feeling like, even this, even me and us being on this literal stage, in this literal building, feels like it's connected to the song. It feels like if we would have been in this world, this world, you know, I mean, 54, it wasn't 54 Below, it was Studio 54. If we would have been in this world in the 70s, I think we would have done okay, and perhaps slightly more okay than we're doing at this time.

Like, I so had this sense of, like, because I felt that so many times in my life, where I'm just like, oh, I'm just, like, not, I'm, like, not the guy for this particular moment. It's, like, I wish, like, I was a little bit earlier or a little bit later or something, and it's, like, and that, it's this thing that, like, haunts me, and I think sometimes in my career, I've been very lucky, where I have sort of met up with a moment, and it's, and, you know, which is how, like, "Be More Chill" happened, but I do, my overwhelming sense, that's the thing, and maybe it's in my head, or maybe it's not, that's the thing that I'm always, I feel, like, secretly battling, like, that's, like, my demon, this demon of, like, you were born on the wrong day, you should have been born five years earlier, or 25 years earlier, or, you know, 10 years from now, and, yeah, and so, I think, like, that, you know, just performing it on that, on that ground, it was, like, impossible to not think about that.

[23:06] Joe Iconis: Yeah, I remember it well.

[23:13] Joe Iconis: Yeah, and could you not wear a shirt that said, End of Story, which is one of my favorite Katrina Rose Dideriksen outfits.

[23:20] Joe Iconis: Just Katrina putting a button on the song, but with the thing on her shirt. Perfect.

[23:25] Joe Iconis: Yeah.

[23:30] Joe Iconis: Hey, thanks so much for listening, or watching to my podcast. Do me a favor, and go to wherever you just listen to, or watch this thing, and subscribe, or like, or give us a great rating, or review, and then head to bpn.fm slash album to find out even more information about this podcast, more ways to watch, more ways to listen, and check out my album, "Album." Thanks so much for hanging out.

[23:44] Joe Iconis: Album Podcast is executive produced by Liz Armstrong, produced by Dori Berenstein, Alan Seals, Kim Garris, and the rest of the team at the Broadway Podcast Network.

[23:53] Joe Iconis: Be sure to visit bpn.fm slash album for both audio and video versions of this podcast, and to listen to "Album."