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[0:00] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Hi, I'm Jennifer Ashley Tepper. And I'm Joe Iconis. Today, we're going to be talking about Run Away From You, which is in parentheses. It is. It's a good conversation about werewolves and strange song titles and, and art in general. And songs that you sing on Halloween. And Jason SweetTooth Williams. Enjoy. Spooky.

[0:40] Joe Iconis: I ignore the television as I wait for you to close your eyes. Run Away From You. This song title is in parentheses, which is so subversive, Joe, tell us about that. It's the song title is in parentheses, because the actual name of the song would be the werewolf song. But if it was called the werewolf song in parentheses, Run Away From You, it would give away the, you know, the, it's not a joke, it would just it would give it away. Yeah, no reason. And so it's an ass syndrome. Exactly. Yeah. So it's definitely my dance 10 looks three of titles. But I once I realized that I loved the idea of having it in parentheses. Because I loved the idea of people being questioning why is that in parentheses, right? And perhaps thinking like, oh, there's another title where the song is called the werewolf song, which I don't know if anyone does, but I'd like to think that they do.

[1:30] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah.

[1:31] Joe Iconis: And the other thing I love about it is, obviously, there's like a legendary new musical theater song called Run Away With Me, which is the you know, it's Kerrigan and Laramie song, very beautiful, like the most sort of like, you know, romantic, contemporary, you know, direct, you know, rolling piano line musical theater song of all time. And so I always I always liked that this is like the opposite of that, you know, it's like Run Away With Me, Run Away From You. Yeah, like, you know, some similar, but the opposite. Um, they should be in medley.

[2:13] Joe Iconis: Yeah. Um, yeah, this song has been performed largely by Jason Sweet Tooth Williams with other people as well. Yeah, there was I've seen some great performances of it. But it's, it was a song that I wrote. I wrote with Sweet Tooth in mind, for sure. And, and he's the foremost interpreter.

[2:32] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah, I feel like well, you know, with your songs, if we actually went through and we're like, who has performed each song and did like, you know, obviously, you've performed each of your songs about like, you would get like the highest number. But after that, it would definitely be Jason, like Jason has sung all of your songs the most of anyone.

[2:48] Joe Iconis: Which means that, you know, there's multiple instances on this album of like, someone originated a song and someone else is singing it. And like, there's so many, you know, Jason has originated so many.

[3:02] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah.

[3:03] Joe Iconis: Yeah. I mean, you know, I love, as we've talked about, I love actors. And I love how material changes depending on who is interpreting it. Or the way I like to work is that material changes depending on who is interpreting it. And so I like on this album that there's a few songs that were originated by by some people and are now being interpreted by others. And it doesn't mean that, you know, anyone's version isn't the official version doesn't mean anyone's version doesn't exist. It's just kind of like what it is now. And, you know, and when, you know, album two on the move comes out, maybe there'll be some of these songs with different singers, like, yeah. But yeah, but Jason is definitely my number one.

[3:37] Joe Iconis: As far as that goes. I just love him. I just love him. I think he's, he's just such a great actor. He can do so many things that are, that are disparate. He's, he's, he's just like a, like a, you know, get your hands dirty, sort of actor, who's in this, this package, as a, as a human that I just find endlessly inspiring. And he, more than anybody that I work with, seems like a real person, which is like, he just seems when he's on stage or whatever, he just seems like a human being who would be walking down the street, who happened to find his way to a stage or to, you know, a concert or whatever. And it's and and there's just no bullshit in his performances, even his performances that are very stylized.

[4:37] Joe Iconis: And I've seen him do like a lot. I've seen you like a lot of like crazy experimental shit. I've had him play, you know, he plays Santa Claus. Like he like plays like characters who are like characters. Like he's not, you know, just like a naturalistic actor. But even, even in those characters, even in those like big, big, big roles that I've seen him play, he just has this thing that just, it's just real. It's just, you know, and I frequently, you know, say that he's, he's like my Philip Zimmer Hoffman. Because, you know, he like, you know, I guess just like, you know, physically, or I was gonna say, facially, you know, he was like similar coloring to Philip Zimmer Hoffman, you know, that sort of like, you know, red face, white guy with blonde hair.

But, but it's, he has this like, he has a similar sort of humanity to me, where it's like, even, you know, every Philip Zimmer Hoffman performance, no matter how crazy it was, he just felt, he just felt real. They all feel like real people. And that's how it, that's how, that's how Jason's performances hit me.

[5:46] Joe Iconis: It's also, okay, I'm about to say two opposing things about this. But it's like, Jason is so good at doing any new musical theater. And it's specifically, I think, because of like, how your years long collaboration has like, he has such a great brain for picking up something that's brand new, and like shaping it and, you know, interpreting it and doing all that. And then on the flip side, related to what you're talking about, it's like this thing that people are allowed to do in plays, but not in musicals. And I just saw the minutes. So I'm thinking about the minutes on Broadway, maybe listener side. But it's like, those characters who feel very normal feel very off the street feel like, oh, yeah, that's who you'd see at a city council meeting.

Like, you wouldn't necessarily see a musical about those people, they just feel like normal, walk off the street characters. So like, the way that Jason can kind of, as you said, like play someone who seems like a normal human, and then represent them in musical theater material is rare.

[6:34] Joe Iconis: Yeah, because he doesn't lose it when he's singing. Because like, that's the thing, again, with like, you know, musical theater, the, you can do naturalistic in a play in a way that's a lot easier than you can do it in a musical, because, you know, in real life, people don't sing and in musicals they do. And people become so presentational. Yeah. And there's, you know, there's so many actors who I like a lot. But when I see them in a musical, it's like, oh, their scene work, they're using a different voice than their song work. You know, it literally feels like these are two different things. And no one seems to care. It's like, everyone's kind of fine with this, which is cool. But that that's not my thing.

I always love when the singing just comes out of the speaking, because it's it's all, it's all the same character. It's all the same voice to me, even if they're singing very impressively, you know, and totally, I mean, there's some masters of this, you know, Jason's so amazing at it. And it's like, they're, it's a very rare skill. But like, I always think of Brian Darcy James to like, he's someone who I feel like 100% it is rare. It is rare skill.

[7:35] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: It really is. Norbert Leo Besto.

[7:37] Joe Iconis: Yeah. But yeah, but Jason is just, you know, it's when he's singing and he sings things. He has a beautiful tenor voice. It just sounds it sounds like somebody speaking in a way that I love so much. And yeah, and his performance of the song is like, absolutely one of my favorites, because he just, you know, he just like goes for it in such a whole hog way, in a way that every time I've seen him do it, it allows the audience to be laughing at the conceit. And then it allows the audience to feel the terror. And then it allows the audience to feel heartbroken, which is what I wanted to do with the song. You know, I wanted to like, can convey all of that.

[8:15] Joe Iconis: And the song itself, you know, it's about, it's about, you know, someone with a secret that they're ashamed of, that they can't help. And that secret could be anything. But it's something that is ruining things in their lives. And, you know, and as much as it's like the werewolf song, I do, I hope that people hear it and can like, and can relate to it. And I've over the years, I've been really surprised at the amount of people who have told me that they were personally affected by this song. Because I think you really can, you know, you don't have to get any of that. You can look at it and be like, oh, this is so hilarious. It's a song about a werewolf who he doesn't want his girlfriend to find out.

It totally works. And then he howls at the end, which is like, you know, even if you hate the song, it's like, oh, he's howling, how cute. But I think if you want to go a step further, there's hopefully, you know, a lot there. And it's like, and I, and I'm, you know, writing very, you know, very,

[9:17] Joe Iconis: Honestly, I mean, you know, I always try to write honestly, but it's not meant to be a, you know, a joke song or a gimmick song. No, it kind of fits into the... we talked about another song on the album that also does like the sad boy trio of Things to Ruin. It's almost like the werewolf's another sad, sad boy.

[9:38] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah.

[9:39] Joe Iconis: The werewolf's another sad boy. What? Talk about the production of this, like, number, like, you know, because it has been done so many times in concerts and like a small version.

[9:43] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah. The production, like in what way?

[9:48] Joe Iconis: Oh, the musical production. Like, what were you excited to add to it for the album? Yeah. You know, the I think that this tune is one of the more like sort of straightforward production wise. As far as instrumentation goes, it's really like, you know, it's this the music is like kind of classic rock. You know, it's like, you know, guitar and bass and drums and piano and there's organ on it. And so it kind of takes you to the like 70s rock world. You know, Ian and Charlie would talk about Meatloaf a lot, you know, and doing the playing Jim Steinman.

[10:25] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah.

[10:26] Joe Iconis: And it is like, which I never ever thought of when when, you know, writing this tune, but it's definitely is has that there's like, you know, the I think the subject matter gives it the sort of hint of like gothicness, but it's like the the bridge, especially that like the word you like that. Stay off the busy street. That's the I think is what can take you to a Jim Steinman place.

[10:46] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah.

[10:47] Joe Iconis: The thing that I love in it so much that we we don't do a lot of vocal effects on the album, but Ian put this like this like nuts vocal effect on Jason's voice in certain parts or it's he's it's like it's he's singing with himself like an octave down. So it's like there's like two Jason's, but they're an octave apart. And it's what sort of creates that like that strange werewolf like or an inhuman like sound that we use a few times on the album. And I like it because it sounds it sounds both inhuman and and and and very much tied to this werewolf character. And it sounds like kind of poppy too, you know, it sounds like it used in a different context. It could just be like a Harry Styles sound or something.

And so I like that because I think that it's the you know, that's if we're using the language of pop and rock music, it makes sense that there'd be this like vocal affectation on on on Jason. It just so happens that this vocal affectation takes us to this place of of of him being a monster.

[11:55] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: How did you and Ian and maybe Charlie and anyone else talk about which instruments to make prominent in certain moments or on certain songs? Because I feel like there's a choice being made throughout the album that maybe, you know, there's other new musical theater where there's a guitar and the instrumentation and you never really hear the guitar. And like there are some songs on the album where you're like, oh, wow, like I'm really hearing the guitar. I was talking to our collaborator, Mike Rosengarten, about this because he's one of the guitarists. But how do you kind of pick and choose and talk to Ian about that?

[12:22] Joe Iconis: Yeah, I so I mean, Ian, Ian does the first round of mixes. Right. So he will take all the tracks and then he'll kind of do the first pass where things, you know, go up and down and say, OK, this part, you know, the guitar a little more, this part, you know, the keyboard a little more. And then he sends them to me and then I just give a million notes on everything. And it's, you know, Ian and I have worked together long enough that he kind of knows he kind of knows what I'm going to like, you know, so the first passes are usually like really good and they're usually like and it's in a way that is so, you know, I'm so spoiled and it's as I only realize it when I work with anyone who's not in or it's like, oh, right.

Ian like knows me like that. That's why he made the guitar loud here and he made the guitar soft here. He knows what I'm going to hang on to. But it's really to me, it's like very gut based. You know, I do not I do not know how to record music like I did not go to school for that. I'm not good with that. I do not know, like the rules about how you're supposed to mix things. I don't know the rules about like, well, if the guitar is at this level at this part, it has to be at this level at this part. And there is worth to that. And there's there is like real structure for how, you know, music is made and how, you know, when people listen to something and they're like, oh, that's like a really good mix.

Like there are all these checkmarks that I don't know what they are. I just go on a purely gut level. And so that's and so that's really it. Like it's my my feeling of like, oh, this this part wants to feel it wants to feel dirty or messy or like did anyone play anything where they're making a mistake or didn't play anything where there was like fuzz or something? That's what we need in this one measure. And so I think hopefully the the album as a whole, it has those peaks and valleys that feel very dramatic because it's like it's not even just the performance. It is the literal mixing and what we're what we're choosing for you to hear in any given moment. And so much of that is driven just by my sort of impulses, my gut impulses.

[14:26] Joe Iconis: And so and so, yeah, I think it is. It's a little bit it's a little bit more maybe erratic sound wise than other things, but in a way that I think makes sense because it's, you know, everything is coming out of the drama of the situation. Everything is coming out of the characters. Everything is coming out of the, you know, the the arc of the song. And so it doesn't make sense to me that that, you know, the piano should be at one level throughout the whole thing.

[14:48] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: You know, it's good to hear you articulate this as it pertains to Ian, because I feel like you and I talk a lot about how like these long collaborations are so meaningful and helpful because you develop shorthand with people and then it's always so hard to come up with kind of an example. And I feel like Ian, having played like bass in a million concerts of yours, can produce like tracks in the album in a different way, the same way that like Lance Rubin as an actor understands something that he can bring out in a lyric because he's worked with you as a writing collaborator. And it's like there's so many instances of that on this album. And sometimes it's hard to come up with like an example. And that was such a beautiful one.

[15:24] Joe Iconis: Yeah.

[15:25] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah. I feel like also it's even, you know, shout out to our brilliant copyist Danielle Gimbel, who like has worked with you as a performer and who captures so much when she's, you know, doing copyist work because she knows it as a performer. And I feel like, you know, this is an opportunity. I'm so grateful that like we've both had with our friends and collaborators on our album to work with them in different capacities so that we all understand every job we're doing better because we've done a different job.

[15:48] Joe Iconis: Yeah.

[15:49] Joe Iconis: A hundred percent. I mean, and there's, you know, it's all of the people we've talked about, Daniel Gimbel, Ian Keggy, Charlie Rosen, they all wear multiple hats on the album. You know, it's like they're all doing different things. They're all they all of them perform on the album as well as work behind the scenes.

[16:10] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Totally.

[16:11] Joe Iconis: Yeah. And I think that all of that stuff just informs everything else that that they do and that we all do.

[16:15] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah.

[16:16] Joe Iconis: This is another one that I think is is slightly spiritually connected to Ammonia, especially at the end, because this is another one that I'm really proud of, that the sort of realization that that the man has what he can't, he cries as he's looking at his partner. And he says, you know, because I couldn't tell you that what I know is that if I had the choice to not be a werewolf anymore or to remain being a werewolf, I would choose to keep being a werewolf. Right. Even though it's ruining us, even though it's ruining me, it's ruining you. If someone said I can take this away from you, this man is saying I couldn't do it. I would choose to to keep doing it. And I think that in a lot of art that's about people who struggle with things, the triumph is like always supposed to be them overcoming it.

And and this and Ammonia, it's someone saying, like, you know, they're going through this whole thing. And then at the end, they're like, and I am going to do the same exact thing because I that because I am.

[17:28] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah.

[17:29] Joe Iconis: Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah. So it's like I don't you know, and I don't know I don't know what that says about about me or about the songs, but I really like it. It feels very honest.

[17:41] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah, totally.

[17:46] Joe Iconis: Hey, thanks so much for listening or watching to my podcast. Do me a favor and go to wherever you just listen to or watch this thing and subscribe or like or give us a great rating or review and then head to BPN dot FM slash album to find out even more information about this podcast. More ways to watch, more ways to listen and check out my album album. Thanks so much for hanging out. Album podcast is executive produced by Liz Armstrong, produced by Dori Berenstain, Alan Seals, Kim Garris and the rest of the team at the Broadway Podcast Network. Be sure to visit BPN dot FM slash album for both audio and video versions of this podcast and to listen to album.