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[0:00] ♪ Musical number: "Get Your Backstage Pass" — performed by Backstage Pass Ensemble ♪

[1:26] Teresa Attridge: Hello, everyone. Welcome to Backstage Pass. It's Pals.

[1:29] Pauls Macs: And Teresa.

[1:30] Teresa Attridge: And we are so excited today because we have another great episode for you. We have the creative team from the new musical, Salem, joining us today.

[1:37] Pauls Macs: Yes. Hello, everyone. How are we doing today?

[1:40] Guests: Hi, everyone. Yeah.

[1:41] Guests: Hi.

[1:42] Guests: We're doing great.

[1:43] Pauls Macs: We've got three. Three is a magic number. Speaking of magic, why don't we get into who you all are, you magical individual beings, and then we'll get into the show. Where should we start?

[1:53] Pauls Macs: First off, I'm just really excited to see you all today because I was listening to the materials and Teresa and I were just saying the songs were going through our heads all day. But let's get started. Why don't we start with Jennifer?

[2:04] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Hi.

[2:05] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Hi. Jennifer Lucy Cook did the music and lyrics for Salem. Jen is a composer and lyricist based in Los Angeles. Jen specializes in music for the stage and screen, choral music, and pop songwriting. Recent commissions include Cantorum Chamber Choir, Choral Arts Ensemble in Minnesota, and Utah Valley University Chamber Choir. She is the recipient of the Edwin Fissinger Composition Award, the Chorus Austin Composition Prize, and the Cantus Emerging Composer Award. She is an alumni of the Johnny Mercer Foundation Writers Group with Goodspeed Musicals, and her theater commissions include Full House Theater Company, British Youth Musical Theater, and Shakespeare's Globe Theater in London. Jen's work as a composer and vocalist can be heard in the Netflix documentary Sins of Our Mother, in Starcade Arcade's video game Torsion, and in her musical recaps of The Bachelor that recently went viral on TikTok. She earned a master's degree in musical theater writing from Goldsmiths University in London and a bachelor's in media music from Brigham Young University.

[2:55] Pauls Macs: Thank you, Jennifer. Welcome.

[2:57] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Hey, thank you. Makes it sound very fancy.

[2:59] Pauls Macs: That's what happens when you're a fancy babe.

[3:02] Teresa Attridge: I've never watched an episode of The Bachelor. I've seen clips, but now I'm very motivated to go and watch the viral TikTok recaps that you have created.

[3:09] Jennifer Lucy Cook: It is honestly exactly the same, but better. I highly recommend.

[3:12] Pauls Macs: The recaps are even more fun, I think, than the actual show. Like, I mean, recapping in general.

[3:18] Teresa Attridge: That's funny.

[3:19] Teresa Attridge: Because it's just like, you get a take on it. And so my takes are all the musical takes, but I love a recap all day long.

[3:24] Pauls Macs: You know, I just lied to you. So I actually have seen an episode of The Bachelor. I don't think I've talked about this, but you know...

[3:29] Teresa Attridge: Pauls, why are you starting this episode with deceit?

[3:32] Pauls Macs: I know, I know, but I didn't mean to.

[3:33] Teresa Attridge: That is a theme of Salem.

[3:34] Pauls Macs: Hey, exactly. I'm tying it all in. For listeners who don't know yet, I think I've talked about this a little bit. I am from the country of Latvia, or rather my family's from the country of Latvia.

[3:43] Pauls Macs: And I once watched an episode of The Bachelor where they went to Latvia and did a bunch of Latvia things.

[3:47] Pauls Macs: Or maybe it was The Bachelorette. And it was like completely inaccurate.

[3:50] Pauls Macs: All the traditions that they did, I was like, that is not what people do in Latvia.

[3:53] Teresa Attridge: But, you know, it's a great moment for our country, I guess.

[3:56] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Yeah, I mean, this is your time to take a stand. Truly.

[3:59] Pauls Macs: Tying it all in. Take a stand.

[4:00] Teresa Attridge: Yeah, expose them.

[4:01] Pauls Macs: You two should collaborate on that.

[4:03] Teresa Attridge: All right, we'll work on that later.

[4:04] Pauls Macs: Okay, TJ. Welcome, TJ. TJ co-wrote the book with Shelby.

[4:08] T.J. Pieffer: TJ is a New York-based writer and performer. He has studied and performed at comedy institutions and theaters around the country, including the Second City Conservatory, The Den, The Annoyance, UCB, The Pit, Omaha Comedy Festival, and Playwrights Horizons. His original musical comedy, Abduction, has received numerous readings, workshops, and productions, including MTAP, the New York Musical Festival, New Musicals Incorporated, and a licensed production at the University of Pittsburgh. His original musical comedy, Salem, was selected for the 2023 Johnny Mercer Foundation's Writer's Grove at Goodspeed Musicals. Yes. TJ is a contributor to the satirical online publication, The Broadway Beat. He is a recipient of the 2016 Ron Narinski Grant and the 2014 Carnegie Mellon University's Pre-College Scholarship. His original TV pilot was Shelby Solla, 1385, was a 2021 Austin Film Festival runner-up. He is a proud member of the Dramatists Guild and ASCAP.

[4:57] Pauls Macs: And then Shelby. Shelby co-wrote the book with TJ.

[5:00] Shelby Solla: Shelby is a playwright and screenwriter based in Brooklyn. Her plays and dramatic writing have been produced at New York Live Arts' primary stages, The Pit Loft, Pittsburgh New Works Festival runner-up Best Lab Works Production, Undiscovered Country's Infinite Festival, and Dixon Place. Most recently, she was commissioned to write a new play, Custodians, for a festival of professional playwriting alumni at her alma mater, Marymount Manhattan College. Shelby has studied improv at the Upright Citizens Brigade Theater and sketch comedy at the People's Improv Theater in NYC. The pilot she co-wrote with TJ Pfeiffer was selected as a second rounder for Austin Film Festival in 2021.

[5:34] Pauls Macs: There's so many accolades in this little virtual room. I'm a little gagged.

[5:39] T.J. Pieffer: It's wild to just have it be read to you. I feel like I was at my funeral.

[5:43] Shelby Solla: I know. Yeah.

[5:45] T.J. Pieffer: It's kind of like having a book report done about you in front of you.

[5:49] Shelby Solla: I didn't know what to do, but it was nice to hear.

[5:51] T.J. Pieffer: You were perfect. You sat.

[5:54] Shelby Solla: I did.

[5:56] T.J. Pieffer: Brilliant execution. Thank you.

[5:59] Pauls Macs: Well, thank you all for joining us. All these fantastic people. I think we should just open by talking about how you all met and came to collaborate and why you chose to work on Salem, especially through the lens of dark comedy.

[6:06] T.J. Pieffer: Absolutely. Well, we have quite an unconventional story. If I do say so myself, Shelby and I are both from Pittsburgh. So we go back there. Jen, I found on a subreddit for theater writing over the pandemic. She lives in L.A. and I was in Chicago. It was a Zoom relationship. The three of us linked up and Shelby was in Brooklyn. I was in Chicago. Jen was in L.A. We were on three different time zones for our Zoom meetings. I've only met Jen in person three or four times at this point, even though we've been writing together for three years. But it was a very lucky little match that we found.

[6:41] Shelby Solla: Yeah. TJ, did you know that as of tomorrow, tomorrow is our anniversary of when you first reached out?

[6:47] T.J. Pieffer: Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh.

[6:49] Shelby Solla: So special. I know.

[6:51] Shelby Solla: But yeah, TJ e-mailed me and was like, do you have time to like work on a show? Because it was the pandemic. The answer was yes. But also I don't say yes to projects very easily. But the minute that TJ was like, well, I've been thinking about a musical based on the Salem Witch Trials, but it would be a comedy. I was like, yes. So it didn't take a lot. And then TJ shared some of his work and it's amazing, of course. And I was like, OK, this could be very fun. And then I met Shelby through TJ and we do a lot of Zoom meetings and group text chains and whatever else. But it works. TJ and Jen got coffee in L.A. once, but the three of us as a unit met in person for the first time at Goodspeed, where we spent two weeks in a house together.

[7:35] T.J. Pieffer: So it truly could have been absolutely disastrous.

[7:40] Shelby Solla: Real reality show synopsis.

[7:43] T.J. Pieffer: We were like, this will either make us or break us.

[7:46] Shelby Solla: Yeah. And it absolutely broke us.

[7:49] T.J. Pieffer: Oh, it made us, yes.

[7:51] Shelby Solla: It broke us and rebuilt us.

[7:53] T.J. Pieffer: Forged in fire, truly.

[7:55] Shelby Solla: Yeah, exactly.

[7:56] T.J. Pieffer: And that's where we met Teresa.

[7:58] Teresa Attridge: Oh, yes.

[7:59] T.J. Pieffer: Did you meet Teresa there?

[8:00] Shelby Solla: I will confess, I've been in that house that you were in.

[8:03] Teresa Attridge: I saw the conspiracy board.

[8:05] T.J. Pieffer: You've eaten our dips.

[8:07] Shelby Solla: With all the red yarn tying the various ramblings together.

[8:12] Pauls Macs: You need to know about this. You need to know about this, pals. For the listeners, when people drop a reference that they all know and I don't know, can we clarify what that was?

[8:21] Shelby Solla: Shelby kind of got into like a QAnon cult when we were in Goodspeed.

[8:25] T.J. Pieffer: They had to drag me out of the office.

[8:27] Shelby Solla: She had a conspiracy board on the wall.

[8:29] Pauls Macs: Wow.

[8:30] Shelby Solla: Yeah. Honestly, the writer's grove was just a cover to get Shelby out.

[8:35] T.J. Pieffer: Right. And Jen and I were like...

[8:36] Shelby Solla: Walk her up. What else can I say?

[8:38] T.J. Pieffer: There was no other way to get her out of the cult.

[8:40] Shelby Solla: We tried everything.

[8:41] T.J. Pieffer: We had to lie about an opportunity.

[8:42] Shelby Solla: Yeah.

[8:43] Shelby Solla: They successfully reprogrammed me, though.

[8:46] T.J. Pieffer: Yes. She now believes Michael Jackson is dead.

[8:49] Shelby Solla: But we actually had a wall of index cards of the plot. And so we would kind of switch scenes around on our wall. And when we had everybody over, it just looked like we were like plotting some heist or something because it was just crazy taped all over the wall.

[9:03] Shelby Solla: And like scribbled index cards, but color coded with here's a musical number, here's a scene. And we also had the whole board of our dream cast for the different roles.

[9:13] T.J. Pieffer: And so we had photos of people all over the wall, like a kill list or something.

[9:18] Shelby Solla: It was really aesthetically pleasing, though.

[9:21] T.J. Pieffer: Most serial killers are mutable signs, and it was giving Virgo for sure.

[9:26] Shelby Solla: I don't think there's any Virgo in any of our charts, is there?

[9:31] T.J. Pieffer: I'm a Leo.

[9:32] Shelby Solla: No, not mine.

[9:33] T.J. Pieffer: What a Leo thing to assert.

[9:37] Pauls Macs: Hey, pals.

[9:38] Teresa Attridge: No one asked.

[9:39] Pauls Macs: OK.

[9:42] Teresa Attridge: I don't know.

[9:43] Teresa Attridge: It's a little witchy while we're all here. Does everyone know their sign? Their big three mayhaps.

[9:47] Guests: Mm hmm.

[9:48] Guests: Mm hmm.

[9:49] Pauls Macs: I'm Tara's son. Libra rising. Pisces moon.

[9:52] Teresa Attridge: It tracks.

[9:53] T.J. Pieffer: I'm a Leo. That's all I know, actually.

[9:55] Shelby Solla: Wait, what are you?

[9:56] T.J. Pieffer: I knew this at one point, but I don't know anymore.

[9:58] Pauls Macs: It'll be a bonus episode.

[10:00] T.J. Pieffer: I'm not saying what the year is.

[10:01] Pauls Macs: It sounds like it's a beautiful pandemic creative love story. And actually, Teresa and I have only met once in person as well.

[10:08] Teresa Attridge: I'm actually in Seattle right now, and she's in New York.

[10:10] Pauls Macs: Oh, nice.

[10:11] Teresa Attridge: I'm New York Theater Barn's Artistic Associate. I am currently living in Seattle. So it's really fantastic that we can all meet up and chat, even though we're in different places.

[10:19] Pauls Macs: That's kind of a gift.

[10:21] Teresa Attridge: Is that not what musical theater does? Does it not connect us across the latitudes and longitudes of the world?

[10:27] Guests: It does.

[10:28] Guests: It sure does.

[10:29] Guests: And across subreddits.

[10:30] Pauls Macs: Through music?

[10:31] Guests: Through laughter.

[10:32] Guests: Across all of Reddit.

[10:34] Pauls Macs: Reddit goes public tomorrow.

[10:35] Guests: It does.

[10:36] Guests: It does.

[10:37] Pauls Macs: I love interviewing comedy writers. It's like too good.

[10:38] Teresa Attridge: It's so good.

[10:40] Pauls Macs: Wait, so TJ, you had this idea to do a Salem musical, but a comedy. Where did that come from?

[10:43] T.J. Pieffer: It was kind of reverse engineered. I just was trying to look for an IP that everybody knew, but wasn't licensed, like wasn't a movie. I looked at everything, literally like the three little pigs, nursery rhymes to historical events, just kind of finding what might be something that's new.

[11:00] Shelby Solla: I landed on Salem just because there's so much material there, it could be like a mini-series. There were just so many crazy things that happened. Shelby and I really like JoJo Rabbit and Our Flag Means Death and these kind of dark, historical satirical pieces, where you take a really messed up time and kind of twist it into dark humor. And this seemed like very fertile ground too.

[11:24] T.J. Pieffer: Yeah, Shelby and I had already co-written a pilot together called 1385, which is about the first female court jester in medieval times. So we had already established a partnership as writers and that we like writing historical fiction, but in an unexpected way. And I had been for like a year or two toying around with a pilot idea about the Salem Witch Trials. It just kind of all came together in a very universal way, like the universe brought it together.

[11:55] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Yeah. A higher power of some kind, be that God or the devil. I think it was the devil. So that kind of all clicked. And then Jen connected to the story as well. And it was all kind of the dominoes fell. I'm so glad that T.J. trusted me initially with exploring the idea because I came from like a really conservative upbringing and I've wanted to make art about it, but not in an overt way for a while in a way that kind of spoke to how I went through that looking at it through like the lens of Puritans and the groupthink mindset of all of that. I was like, okay, I can totally relate to that. I can tap into that. I immediately have ideas.

[12:31] Jennifer Lucy Cook: I mean, you can really tell in the lyrics. I grew up very Catholic. I remember one of the main things I remembered the first time I heard music from the show was that really uncomfortable, like part of me kicking in and being like, I also want to be really good actually. And I was like, ooh, okay, that was strong in my body. I don't know how I feel about that.

[12:50] T.J. Pieffer: But in the way where it felt safe to dig into when you are meeting a collaborator online, what are the key points of compatibility that let you know that this is probably going to be a good thing, right? Like, is it a vibe having a similar vocabulary? Is it the ability to build an idea, kind of like winging it together? Or is there a more formal interview process? Like, what was that actually like to vet one another?

[13:15] Shelby Solla: Or is it like just a certain deadpan delivery when it comes to your jokes? Like, oh, I vibe with this person's brand.

[13:20] T.J. Pieffer: I don't know what you're talking about, Val. I'm sure all three of us have different answers. For me, obviously, liking the same sort of media is a green flag. And then obviously, just personality-wise, almost like a friend date is a huge part of it. And for me, it's about time that you're willing to give because this is just such a big time commitment. A lot of people will be like, yeah, let's write a musical about Abraham Lincoln, and then it never goes anywhere. Write that down, guys. But these guys' commitment to the idea and the project is also a green flag that we're all in on it 100%, which is actually pretty rare, especially when you're not commissioned or anything. And it's just kind of a piecemealed situation.

[13:58] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Just to piggyback on that, that was our very first conversation is like, at what level are you talking here? Is this like for fun? I've done too many things for fun now. I want to do something that goes somewhere and has a life and reaches people and that I'm proud of. That was in our very first conversation.

[14:15] Shelby Solla: But also just to say that I've had a fair few people reach out wanting to collaborate. But one thing that set T.J. apart in that first email was he had specific references. He had done the research to like find my work and what he liked about it and talked about that. And I was like, oh, he's not just bullshitting me here. He doesn't just want like any old writer. He was looking for somebody who had the qualities that he found in my music. It's interesting how rare that is when approached by a collaborator. So that was an instant green flag too.

[14:44] T.J. Pieffer: I'm a hashtag fan of Jen. Green flag. I love that. I always hear red flag, green flags. That's even better.

[14:49] Jennifer Lucy Cook: I mean, our green flag means death.

[14:54] T.J. Pieffer: We'll take it. We'll take it.

[14:56] Shelby Solla: I mean, I can also imagine talking to someone who's like, I also have a woman as a co-writer, just like as a woman being messaged on the internet is kind of like vaguely assuring to be like, okay, so you're probably not like the creepiest person.

[15:09] Jennifer Lucy Cook: No, definitely. The woman could have been a garbage bag stuffed with hay in his closet for all she knew, but...

[15:15] T.J. Pieffer: Luckily, it was Shelby.

[15:20] Shelby Solla: There we go. Wow, just dumping your previous collaborator, a woman made of hay in a garbage bag just like that.

[15:25] T.J. Pieffer: Well, she couldn't write for Abraham Lincoln the way that I wanted her to.

[15:30] Shelby Solla: So that's true.

[15:31] T.J. Pieffer: And then I'm gonna say the synopsis really quick, because I think the synopsis gives people a good feel of what we're talking about when we say comedy.

[15:37] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Yeah.

[15:37] T.J. Pieffer: Outlandish conspiracy theories, misinformation spreading like wildfire, and an infamously controversial trial in the early 90s. Yep, this is 17th century New England. Salem is a dark musical comedy that follows two Puritan teenagers, Abby and Betty, as they plan accusations of witchcraft in an attempt to con their way out of the oppressive theocratic swamp town of Salem, Massachusetts. After pushing the limits of townie gossip, they find themselves centered in a web of witchy conspiracies more intricate than they could have ever imagined.

[16:08] Shelby Solla: With pamphleteers presented as 1690s cable news anchors, deliciously danceable pop music numbers, and an apparition of the devil forged from the imagination of a teenaged girl, this is not your high school English teacher's take on The Crucible.

[16:22] T.J. Pieffer: Is now a good time for me to mention that I was in a production of The Crucible in college? I feel like I talk about my college theater career a lot on this podcast because it's fun, but I was in The Crucible in college. And I think it's still one of my favorite plays. I played Ezekiel Cheever, not John Proctor. Everyone's like, oh, were you John Proctor? Or were you Hale? Were you Paris? I'm like, no, I was Ezekiel Cheever, who is not in your show.

[16:40] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Not yet.

[16:43] T.J. Pieffer: Paz, this is actually your audition. I didn't tell you.

[16:45] Shelby Solla: Let's pitch the character. What did he do in The Crucible? He hangs him?

[16:49] T.J. Pieffer: He comes in and John Proctor and Goody Proctor just had an argument. And he's the one who finds a puppet, though he calls it a poppet. And he's like, I found this bewitched puppet, Goody Proctor. You've been with the devil or something. It's been a while, but...

[17:02] Shelby Solla: We could give you like a Sound of Music goat puppet number with your...

[17:06] T.J. Pieffer: Exactly the character.

[17:09] Shelby Solla: You're going on the conspiracy board. You're on it.

[17:12] T.J. Pieffer: Something that I really want to ask, and it is such a like big, vague, like esoteric question is, what is a joke? Like, where do you find the humor? But more than that, how do you execute it in a way that is both truthful and satisfying?

[17:27] Shelby Solla: I had another related question. What I noticed about the comedy, which I love so much, was there's like a blending of the contemporary world with 1692 Massachusetts. For example, when Paris announces Salem Village welcomes Martha and George Corwin's beautiful new twins, Silence and Obedience Corwin. There's such a heightened take on Puritanism. That's so funny.

[17:47] T.J. Pieffer: It is such an A plus joke.

[17:48] Shelby Solla: Yeah. Or when Betty says, I would stone my firstborn to hear from God. That like contemporary lens on it. Or the fact that like Abby and Betty, I think...

[17:57] T.J. Pieffer: Mercy and Mary.

[17:58] Shelby Solla: Wow, I'm doing really good with remembering this plot. They have this book club. I doubt they had book clubs in Salem. But they have this book club where they just read the Bible over and over again. They're like, the end. In the beginning. So maybe that is a helpful lens. How is your process of writing the joke? Did you intentionally blend the contemporary with the traditional?

[18:19] T.J. Pieffer: The tone and the voice was definitely intentional when it comes to blending the contemporary language and perspective on a different time. Some of it is also hyperbole. Like what is the most extreme version of Puritanism? Kind of like you said, Silence and Obedience is actually probably not that far off. Like we're pulling names from name lists that are from like birth and death records. Like these were real people.

[18:44] Shelby Solla: Constance and Prudence are real names.

[18:46] T.J. Pieffer: Oh, for sure. There are people that are named like Thou Shalt Not Lie. And that was a person's name. I don't know what they were called.

[18:53] Shelby Solla: Jermaine's son is Jermajesty. Like a name is not even real.

[18:58] T.J. Pieffer: Yeah, I mean, and in that respect, maybe we were kind of tame. Like Mary and Mercy is pretty chill. It's an interplay of like, how would we feel about this today? Like what is our take on it today? And what's absurd to us today? But also what is the most extreme manifestation of their circumstances in the time that they're living in?

[19:17] Shelby Solla: What is it about absurdity as a concept that is so funny to us?

[19:22] T.J. Pieffer: I think we're used to, especially in serious things like the Salem Witch Trials, which we usually have ingested through The Crucible or in like a textbook in school. There's this irreverent-ness to anything that's a little bit more screwy than what we're used to knowing about it. So just pushing that the names are kind of pushing a bit of a contemporary spin on it is enough of a juxtaposition that it's just not something that our ears are used to.

[19:48] Jennifer Lucy Cook: In general, Teresa, going back to your first question, I don't know if I should use the word ethos or pathos in this answer.

[19:54] T.J. Pieffer: I won't know which one you mean. I won't know what you meant by either one.

[19:58] Jennifer Lucy Cook: I gotcha. I'm looking up the words on my Merriam-Webster Dictionary app right now. Ethos, the distinguishing character sentiment, moral nature, or guiding belief of a person, group, or institution. That, that, yes. I think the three of us just kind of feel and it's less of a verbal way. For me, at least when I'm writing, I just kind of think about if I'm the audience member, is the butt of the joke on the right person, which is usually the religious structure or the cleanliness of the town and not the victims. You know, it's kind of a mental vibe check on that balance. That's kind of unspoken right now between the three of us because we all kind of understand the tone.

[20:32] T.J. Pieffer: Yeah. And I think we did spend a good amount of time talking about like where the comedic fences were. Like how much contemporary reference are we happy with? Because an earlier draft had a lot more direct references to like the politics of today and like some pop stars and stuff like that. And we took that all out because that was a fence that we decided we wanted to build. And yet, like you said, Pals, like we have contemporary turns of phrase and like sort of takes on how we might speak now. Because I think like what's so fun about that comedically, that sets up an expectation that we then break. Like we set up the expectation of we're in this time, and then we break it, which is the very granular essence, I think, of what humor is.

But then also, I think that's what helps provide that link between then and now that we want from this, right? Like we want to be like, okay, of course, we would never hang someone for a witch now. But then the more that you can draw through humor, like draw the comparisons, the more you can be like, hang on a second, in what ways am I also a little bit of a victim to some sort of conspiracy theory? I think that's what's so fun about it. It's the same way with the music, like we wanted to not do like period music, it was very much pop, but that's never addressed in the show, of course, because that's just the language of the show. And that's yet another way of setting up an expectation that we then break. So hopefully, the layers of that are consistent. But we have talked a lot about where those fences are for us. Totally.

[22:01] T.J. Pieffer: So, for "Cursed," the main girl that you'll hear is Abby, voiced in this demo by Kay Seball. She's amazing, and I did the backings and the other girls. So, Kay sings for Abby, and she is, basically, this is her first attempt to convince the girls that they're possessed by witchcraft. What she wants is for them to be so convinced that they're possessed that they'll then spread it through the town. With any luck, the town will get angry at her uncle Samuel, who's the reverend, and just kick him right out of town, and they'll all get to go back to Boston. Everything will be fine. That's what she wants to happen. This is, like, early in her plan, when she's like, okay, look, girls, I think I feel a little bit itchy. Do you feel a little bit itchy, too? Oh, no. I think I want to dance to this music. Oh, no. And it's like, the power of suggestion gets played out in real time, basically. Fantastic. Well, here is "Cursed," performed by Kay Seball and Jennifer Cook.

[23:25] ♪ Musical number: "Cursed" — performed by Kay Seball and Jennifer Cook ♪

[27:06] T.J. Pieffer: Wow, oh my gosh, like that's what I'm talking about. Literally, I've never wanted to be possessed by the devil more in my life.

[27:13] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Fantastic, I'm sure we can arrange that.

[27:15] T.J. Pieffer: Truly, do you promise? This is the first song I heard from the show. As Teresa likes to say, this song fucks.

[27:21] Shelby Solla: It fucks.

[27:22] T.J. Pieffer: This is not what I imagined at all. And then I was so surprised because as I kept listening to more and more songs, each song has its own vibe, which is really exciting. But this one, it's a whole mood, it's a whole vibe. So congratulations, it's fantastic.

[27:34] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Thank you. It had to be specific enough to possess. So I'm glad that you felt that.

[27:38] T.J. Pieffer: Absolutely. Actually, I'm going to jump into something that you just said, which is about the link between what's happening in Salem versus what's happening right now. Because that's what I was thinking about a lot as I was reading it. And I think there's this whole fascination with the Salem witch trials. Because for myself, who was in "The Crucible," you look back at that time period and you're like, how could they have possibly not figured out that what they were doing was horrible? How could that many people have gotten swept up in this hysteria? And yet we are in a situation right now, where one of the leading candidates for president is basically a criminal, is going to stand trial and actually participated in an insurrection against the United States after the last election. And yet there's so many people who are like, yeah, this is fine. This is the most political we've ever gotten on the cast. It's getting wild in here.

[28:24] T.J. Pieffer: Wow.

[28:27] Jennifer Lucy Cook: I'm a conservative, by the way, Pals. So whatever you say, be careful.

[28:31] T.J. Pieffer: I think most of our audience is conservative. So we're going to lose half of that.

[28:33] Shelby Solla: That's why you're so obsessed with Abraham Lincoln.

[28:36] T.J. Pieffer: Yeah. Because you're like, well, he was technically a Republican.

[28:39] Jennifer Lucy Cook: And I'm like, let's not—

[28:40] T.J. Pieffer: He was.

[28:41] Jennifer Lucy Cook: He was, Teresa.

[28:41] T.J. Pieffer: He was technically—

[28:42] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Continue, Pals.

[28:43] T.J. Pieffer: He was. But like this idea of using fear, because I think that's definitely a prevalent theme in the show. How did you think about that? Like the prevalence of fear in Salem and connecting it to our world today?

[28:48] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Fear is just so galvanizing of a tool to use to get people to do what you want. And I think we're so tempted to look at history and say, well, that was what, 400 years ago, 350 years ago, or however many years ago. Those people were so primitive. I'm clearly so much smarter now or so much wiser now. And I think it's actually harder now because your information isn't coming down a funnel from a single source. Information and perspective is hitting us constantly every time we look at our phone or walk out the door or try to log on to work from every different angle. And I think that if you don't feel afraid right now all the time, I want whatever you're having. I want whatever cocktail you're on, because that just seems to be the pervasive feeling, definitely in our generation. But I think across all generations in the United States and probably everywhere, it's not that far of a jump.

[29:53] T.J. Pieffer: I feel like the double-edged sword of living in the modern day now is the amount of information we have can either educate us or it can solidify us in a wrong that we want to support our own cause, right? It's very easy to look for proof of your case in a world where people can post whatever they want, right?

[30:14] Shelby Solla: Exactly.

[30:15] Jennifer Lucy Cook: That is such a big part of the theme and the heart of our show that we've really tried to articulate, is that we have some choice in the kind of bubble we create for ourselves and the kind of truth that we want to believe. And it's really easy to be like, well, this other person reads this news source and obviously nothing they know is correct because it's different than what I read and what I believe. But then also we're pretty willingly creating our own reality to strip away any partisan aspect of it and acknowledging that actually we're all only getting little granules and nuggets of the truth for better or worse for our own sanity, for our own agenda, for our self-empowerment. We cultivate these realities and beliefs to kind of keep us warm at night and help make us feel safe and right.

[31:12] T.J. Pieffer: There's safety in feeling right and security.

[31:13] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Absolutely. And there's like a little bit of a nuance there too, because I think there's like an extreme version, which is being like, well, reality is everything is horrible and we should just feel bad the entire time. That's not necessarily like what we want to say. Like, obviously knowing what the truth is, is a very important part of Salem and an important part of what we all are figuring out. But also the wise women who end up getting accused of witchcraft, they have a song called "Bloom" which is all about how in less than ideal circumstances, they've been able to find their own way of blooming where they're planted. And it's not perfect, but they've carved out a good life for themselves in spite of Salem itself.

And that is one of the lessons that Abby and Betty, the young girls learn throughout the show is that things might not be perfect. And yes, truth matters and uncovering things matters and thinking for yourself matters, but also imagining the world that you want to live in matters too. And sometimes we can't do that unless we can imagine what that might be. And I think that's one thing that theater does so well is that allows us to use our imaginations and be like, oh gosh, how do I want my life to go? How could this be better? How could I bloom where I am? I hope that there's an element of that in it as much as there is a sort of grappling with reality at the same time.

[32:30] T.J. Pieffer: Thanks for joining us on New York Theater Barn's Backstage Pass. Join us next time as we continue our discussion about the new musical Salem and we decide which musical theater characters are actually witches in disguise.