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[0:01] Zack Zadek: The music of tomorrow is being written today.

[0:10] Zack Zadek: The music of tomorrow is almost ready to play.

[0:18] Zack Zadek: Experience the musicals of tomorrow today.

[0:21] Zack Zadek: Get a glimpse inside the blueprint of an original musical being developed in real time.

[0:26] Zack Zadek: With New York Theatre Barn's podcast, The Musicals of Tomorrow.

[0:32] Zack Zadek: The music of tomorrow.

[0:40] Pauls Macs: I'm Pauls Macs.

[0:42] Teresa Attridge: And I'm Teresa Attridge.

[0:44] Pauls Macs: And we're the hosts of The Musicals of Tomorrow.

[0:46] Teresa Attridge: As the Artistic Director and Associate Artistic Director of New York Theatre Barn, we make space to speak in community with musical theatre writers and their creative teams.

[0:56] Pauls Macs: Lifting up songs from original culture-shifting musicals in development and introducing them to a global audience has become a major part of New York Theatre Barn's evolving story.

[1:06] Teresa Attridge: Each original musical's intention, content, and journey are unique and extraordinary to the storytellers who create them.

[1:14] Pauls Macs: We believe that there is no formula for musical theatre except authenticity.

[1:19] Teresa Attridge: We recently spoke with Zack Zadek, one of the writers of Love Rosie, and the writers of The Bridge, Kathleen Wrinn and Peter Hodgson.

[1:28] Pauls Macs: Our first musical is Love Rosie.

[1:30] Teresa Attridge: Based on the 2014 Lionsgate film, Love Rosie, and the 2004 novel, Where Rainbows End, the new musical, Love Rosie, has music and lyrics by Zack Zadek and a book by Peter Duchan.

[1:44] Zack Zadek: Rosie and Alex meet at 18. They're from different worlds, a gulf of misunderstanding between them, but they share a passion for music and for each other.

[1:53] Zack Zadek: The youthful choices they make, the leaps they take together, will change the course of their lives, pushing them closer together and pulling them apart.

[2:01] Zack Zadek: Two interconnected lives are tracked over a decade, asking the question, what is a love story?

[2:09] Pauls Macs: And now, here's our conversation with the composer and lyricist of Love Rosie, Zack Zadek.

[2:15] Teresa Attridge: Hi, Zack.

[2:16] Zack Zadek: What's going on, guys? How's it going?

[2:17] Pauls Macs: We're glad you're here.

[2:18] Zack Zadek: I'm very excited to get to share some songs from this with everybody at the Barn.

[2:24] Pauls Macs: That's right, and we're excited to have you back after presenting your work in our 2013 New Work series.

[2:30] Teresa Attridge: One of the shows we included that night was your musical, The Crazy Ones, about Steve Jobs digging into the darker, more untold part of his journey.

[2:37] Pauls Macs: That concert was at the Daryl Roth Theater's basement D-lounge, and the room was electric that night.

[2:43] Teresa Attridge: Everybody up on that stage has worked with us so many times.

[2:46] Pauls Macs: So, Love Rosie, I know a lot of people are familiar with what we were saying. It's been on Netflix since the pandemic started, so people are familiar with that, familiar with the book it was based on. How did this project come about for you?

[2:56] Zack Zadek: Well, first, I will quickly share that I learned something new about my own piece doing this Theatre Barn concert. The book, when it was published in the U.S., was published—the copy I have says Love Rosie on it. It does not say When Rainbows End. And I was like, When Rainbows End? I spoke to Peter, the book writer. This was like, What is When Rainbows End? Did they make a mistake? Do they think this is like a Judy Garland show? No, it actually was published under the name When Rainbows End in the U.K. So, I was like, we learned something. This is amazing. How did this happen? Basically, sort of the movie came across my virtual desk, so to speak. It was optioned to be a musical. And our producer basically, sort of as legend has it in our little team, our producer saw this movie while on a transcontinental flight.

It was one of the in-flight movies. He was like, Oh, what is this? Love Rosie, never heard of it. Turns it on. It was like, Actually, this could be an amazing musical, maybe. It goes and options the rights after he got off this plane. And then somewhere shortly after that, it came across in my world. And I watched this movie that I also had never heard of and was like, Oh, I totally see what you're talking about. Like, it's one of those underlying sort of stories that is really, really special as a book and as a movie. But you see sort of, Oh, it could be a completely different thing as a musical. I got very excited by it.

[4:05] Pauls Macs: Yeah. Cool. And how did Peter Duchan become to be a part of the team?

[4:09] Zack Zadek: Peter, who's not, I'm representing both Peter and myself tonight as team Love Rosie. Peter Duchan, very talented book writer. Honestly, Peter had been somebody who I really, I knew his work from Dogfight. He wrote the book to the show Dogfight that I really enjoyed. And we had sort of met socially at a few hangouts before. But when we were talking about somebody to bring on to work on the book for this, I was like, Oh, maybe we sent it to Peter. And Peter instantly sort of had the same vision. There's one of those sort of strange collaborator things where you meet somebody you've never really met before. And you're like, Wait a minute. I think that's a great idea. I think that's a great idea. Oh, my gosh. We should write a musical together. So this was sort of the perfect vessel for us to try collaborating.

[4:49] Pauls Macs: So tell us more about the show's development.

[4:52] Zack Zadek: Well, we developed the show at a really great institution called the Powerhouse at New York Station Film. It's sort of up at Vassar. And we've done a lot of work up there. One of the songs here was written during that residency. And so far, we've just been sort of, you know, getting our ducks in a row internally. So this is an exciting time.

[5:08] Pauls Macs: Awesome. Well, we're psyched to hear the first song. Tell us about Right Place, Right Time.

[5:10] Zack Zadek: Yeah. So Right Place, Right Time, first of all, is a duet. And I am not. But I'm going to. Well? I'm going to. Last I checked. So I'm going to sort of do my best to sort of sing it as one person, a two-person song. But basically, this song, in many ways, is like the show in microcosm, in a sense, because it's our two main characters, Rosie and Alex, encountering each other several years after they thought they may never see each other again. Right. And one of the things that the show is interested in exploring are who are the most important people in our lives, whether it's in the romantic context, the context of friends, something in between, as it is in many cases for our two main characters.

But that moment where when you see somebody after so long and have to ask yourself, just based on the sheer coincidence of it, is this a sign from the universe in some crazy way? Or is this just, you know, are we just a bunch of particles floating around in a sea of chaos? Right. Is there something, is there a sign here or are we just reading into it? And that's very much what the song and very much what the show is about. What does it mean when a person who you haven't seen in years feels like they've never left your side?

[6:38] Zack Zadek: So much has changed, but you could never be a stranger. It all feels so damn familiar that I feel, well, terrified. A part of me says we forget this ever happened. You'll be a memory as I run to catch my flight. But I can't shake this uncanny sort of feeling that there's a reason why I'm sitting here across from you tonight. Maybe if you want something to happen, you have to give up the illusion of control. Oh, I let go for the night. Because for a moment, this feels like I'm in the right place at the right time.

[7:47] Zack Zadek: It only takes a crooked smile and inside joke to make it seem like years have never passed us by. Hard to admit that I still fantasize about you. Do I stop to question how? Do I stop to question why? Or are some things supposed to happen? Maybe it's all out of our control. Oh, just let go, free fall and fly. Because for a moment, this feels like I'm in the right place at the right time.

[8:42] Zack Zadek: Right now I see better what we choose. Because some things are meant to be. That's why we're in the right place at the right time. Time slows when you're growing up, growing up. And life keeps going, it keeps going. And I know when there's something that's supposed to happen. It's not a love story. It's not a love story. It's not a love story. Until you know how it ends. Oh, right now I see it doesn't matter what we choose. Because some things are meant to be. That's why we're in the right place at the right time. Oh, just let go, free fall and fly. Because for a moment, this feels like I'm in the right place at the right time.

[11:00] Zack Zadek: Mmm.

[11:03] Zack Zadek: Mmm.

[11:26] Pauls Macs: That was awesome.

[11:27] Teresa Attridge: Yeah.

[11:28] Pauls Macs: Thanks, guys.

[11:29] Zack Zadek: I can't even imagine it with two people.

[11:30] Pauls Macs: Two people. I mean, I know that sucked. But with two people, it really kicks.

[11:36] Teresa Attridge: Super melodic.

[11:37] Pauls Macs: I'm still singing it in my head.

[11:38] Teresa Attridge: Mm-hmm.

[11:39] Pauls Macs: Me, too.

[11:40] Zack Zadek: Thanks, guys.

[11:41] Pauls Macs: Awesome. Well, tell us about Feel Like Home.

[11:43] Zack Zadek: So Feel Like Home comes later in the show. It's sung by Alex, who basically is asking himself this question of he's with somebody else at the time that he sings this. And he's just had this thing with Rosie. And it's very dramatic and complicated. And you'll have to see the full show. But basically, it has to...

[11:58] Zack Zadek: Ask this question of what does it mean when you have this whole shared thing with somebody, and it's more than just you and more than just that person, but we've created sort of a time and place together, and when home might be another person, not a physical space. What are the connections that are most vital? How do we measure our lives and other people? So it also reminds me of that famous lyric, Anywhere You Hang Your Hat Is Home. Awesome. Well, let's hear Feel Like Home.

[12:32] ♪ Musical number: "Feel Like Home" — performed by Zack Zadek ♪

[17:18] Zack Zadek: Thank you for that. Thank you for having me. Well, it was super cool to hear those two songs from Love, Rosie. The treat is totally mine, guys. Thank you for doing this. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. We'll see you soon. Our second show is The Bridge, an epic new musical based on the love story that built the Brooklyn Bridge, which has book and lyrics by Kathleen Rinn and music by Peter Hodgson. When Emily Roebling's husband falls mysteriously ill and is unable to continue as chief engineer, Emily must do the impossible, secretly take her husband's place as chief in an era half a century before women were allowed to vote. With a genre-defying score as vibrant as New York City itself, The Bridge explores the forces that unite and divide us.

It is a story of mistakes and forgiveness, of great sacrifice and even greater hope, of finding a way forward across the uncrossable. And now, here's our conversation with the writers of The Bridge, Kathleen Rinn and Peter Hodgson.

[18:18] Kathleen Rinn: Hi, it's great to be here.

[18:24] Peter Hodgson: Hello, hello.

[18:25] Kathleen Rinn: Thank you for being here. Peter, your full-length musicals include Lady, Mercy and Boundless. And as a musical director, you've worked on Kate Kerrigan and Brie Loudermilk's The Bad Years. Kathleen, your full-length musicals include 10, The Story of Grace and Joe and The Forgetting of Snow, co-written with Paolo K. Tirole, who we love. You're also a professor of musical theater at Syracuse University's Department of Drama, which is one of the nation's leading musical theater training programs. So your show tells the untold true love story that saved the Brooklyn Bridge and is anchored by a powerful female identifying protagonist. What was the impetus for your collaboration and what drew you to excavate this story?

[19:03] Kathleen Rinn: Yeah, so Peter and I actually met in graduate school at NYU. And I remember in our first year there hearing his different projects that would get shown. And every time I heard his music, I was like, I want to write with that music. I want to write with that music. And so it was kind of a quick falling. But I mean, I'll let you speak for yourself. It's a quick falling on my part.

[19:26] Peter Hodgson: She's not wrong. We were made to write with everyone in our class. So we really didn't get a say of who we were writing with. That in and of itself was just like invaluable experience to have. But anytime I heard Kathleen's lyrics, I was like, oh, they're so like, and this is a thing personally for me, they're so structured. It's so nice. Like, it makes sense. It just made sense to me. It just clicked. Like sometimes that happens. I'm not sure I could actually put that into like the mechanics of exactly what it was. But I just gravitated towards them. And so when we got the chance to work on a couple projects together, it was instantly like, this is easy. Yeah, we're gonna do this for a while.

[19:58] Kathleen Rinn: And we were actually introduced to the idea of and the story of Emily Roebling and this kind of secret backstory to how the bridge got built by a classmate of ours at graduate school. But I've always just been so enamored with untold stories of women from history. I really I'm a real research nerd. I love diving into time periods and getting to imagine the behind closed doors action and hearing about the fact that this incredible feat of engineering had this second incredible feat of this sort of puppeteering of strings and staying out of the limelight and taking over when her husband fell ill was just unbelievable to me and for a decade. I mean, she essentially ran the site for a decade. And I kind of did my own reading last night. And you know, basically, he got sick and she went to his bedside and would relate things back to the people constructing the bridge. It's wild to me.

[20:51] Peter Hodgson: Yeah. And like the thing that really kind of sealed the deal about why this needs to be told is when you look up even scholarly articles or people's like thesis projects that have to do with the bridge. They always say like, well, the last 10 years were from a courier, like a trusted courier of Washington or a secretarial assistant. And you're like, you got to be kidding me, right? You got to be. You couldn't even like give a name to it. You had to say a secretarial assistant or something. So that kind of sealed the, OK, well, we have to tell it. We have to do our best to tell it.

[21:23] Kathleen Rinn: And Washington didn't even see the bridge open, right?

[21:30] Peter Hodgson: No, he didn't come to the opening. He actually didn't set foot on it again for I mean, basically from the time that he was out when he got ill with the bends. He then didn't come back until years after it had opened. So he was very detached from it. And I just to say to you, the idea just had so much music in it. I mean, the music of the city, the music of the building. I mean, you look at that bridge and it's hard to not hear it sing. Right. And so that was a big draw for us, too.

[21:49] Kathleen Rinn: Yeah, I mean, a musical was like the only way to tell it. I mean, there's that saying of like, when a character can't speak, they sing. And it's like, well, she literally wasn't allowed to say her piece in this story and in this history. So it was like, well, of course, behind a closed door, she's going to belt her face off or something, you know, a little bit of frustration there.

[22:14] Peter Hodgson: So well, speaking of stories of untold stories of women through history, we had the great privilege of developing a musical called I Married Wyatt Earp, which became The Bell of Tombstone, which is about the wife of Wyatt Earp and the women of the American West. And it's co-written by our board president, Emeritus Sheila Ray, who actually saw Kathleen perform a song from this at a virtual presentation. And that's how we did it. So I just wanted to say that. So tell us more about your development path before you performed this at Maestro and Sheila was like, we have to work with her.

[22:43] Kathleen Rinn: Absolutely. So we started researching about four years ago. So we've been working on it for a while. We researched for about a year and then started writing in earnest. And since then, we've been lucky enough. We've had two residencies at the Catwalk Art Institute, which funnily enough, is not that far from Cold Spring, New York. They're both along the Hudson and Cold Spring is where Emily Roebling grew up. And it's also where she and Washington are buried. When we've worked there at Catwalk and written, we've been just along the Hudson and looking out on this river that Emily looked out on growing up. And also just looking out on a river is really inspiring for the piece. So that's been like a second home for us for this show.

And then we got to do a workshop at Syracuse. It was a really exciting process just to get to hear all these new perspectives on the piece and start to see it live. To see people care about the story as much as we do, you know, like we've been living with this for so long. It's like we know these people, even though we're never going to speak a word to them. We know these people. And when we had other people come in and also be like, this is insane. Why don't people know this story and start to dig into it? And they were doing their own research. And it was just so affirming to be like, oh, this is a story that people care about. And this is a story that deserves to be told. Tell us a little bit about the first song you're going to present tonight. Absolutely. So

[23:56] Peter Hodgson: One thing that we have come up against again and again in our research for The Bridge is the fact that there is so much information to be found about the men surrounding this project, and particularly about Washington, Emily's husband. But there's just so comparatively little to be found about Emily. We know that Washington was a colonel in the Civil War. We know that he had this really tumultuous relationship with his abusive father. We know that becoming chief engineer of the Brooklyn Bridge was this incredibly trying experience for him mentally, emotionally, physically. But what we don't know is what Emily felt about any of that, as she was his partner. And he even called her the strong tower that he leaned on, right? So that's the only piece of information we have about her experience of supporting him through this. And so this song, "Something I Can Do," is our best guess at what it was really like for her.

[24:42] Kathleen Wrinn: It's being performed by you!

[24:48] Peter Hodgson: It is. So here is "Something I Can Do."

[24:59] Kathleen Wrinn: I don't carry what he carries. I don't feel the hurt he feels. I'm not sure just where the wound is. But I know it never heals. I can't wake him from the nightmares that his memories put him through. But I can tell him that I love him. That is something I can do. I can't be there in his childhood to defend him from his dad. I can't unsay the names he calls him or give him peace he never had. I can't kiss away the bruises or the bones that broke him too. But I can love him. I can love him. That is something I can do. Right now his burden's heavy and my own is small. Right now I lift him up and he can't help at all. But when my burden's heavy, as it may one day be, he'll be ready to lift it for me.

Till then I'll hold him when he's shaking, and I'll never ask what for. He won't say just what he's grieving, if it's his father or the war. But I'll pretend it doesn't scare me, though we both know that isn't true. But still I love him. I love him. Yes, I love him. I love him. Oh, I love him. I will love him. That's the one thing I can do.

[27:23] Peter Hodgson: Thank you.

[27:33] Zack Zadek: Beautiful. Great job, Kathleen.

[27:35] Kathleen Wrinn: Thanks. And when we, I remember we wrote that at Catwalk, Peter, right? The second time, I think?

[27:39] Peter Hodgson: Yeah.

[27:39] Kathleen Wrinn: Yeah. And I mean, that one was really the moment where we started to feel like we got inside of Emily and started to trust our own guesses at what her experience was like. And so that was really like a quiet moment for her that was, I remember, really important to us in our process.

[27:58] Peter Hodgson: Yeah. And it was one of those things where Emily was a person and like, that's where you connect with her. They didn't feel things differently back then. If you had a partner who was in trouble, you still felt the same way you would today. And that became really, really clear when we just kind of reached into the void and went, this is how we would feel. Like, this is the music I would feel. These are the words Kathleen would feel. And it connected us to the humanity of her and subsequently, all the characters we started looking at that way too.

[28:31] Kathleen Wrinn: And all the dots, there's all these like little dots to be connected for him in terms of perhaps in terms of PTSD. They didn't have language for it back then. There's no sort of diagnosis that would be given, but there's all these little hints throughout. And so that's something that we decided to explore too.

[28:47] Zack Zadek: And how do you think they would feel if they knew you had created a musical about them? Is this something, does their family know about the show? How is your research really driven? I'm so curious.

[28:58] Peter Hodgson: Yeah, no, it's a wonderful question. I mean, up to this point, we don't as of yet have any connection to the Roebling family. It is something that we're interested in. One thing we know about her, she cut out all of the newspaper clippings about the bridge and made these enormous scrap albums of it for her husband. And so she definitely was up on any sort of publicity, anything that was being said about them. So I'm sure she would know that this was occurring if she were alive. But yeah, that's definitely something that we're interested in going forward. And we've tried to be really true to their spirit as well as to as many of the facts we could keep about them as possible.

[29:31] Kathleen Wrinn: Yeah. And there's great resources actually, like in 2017, in June of 2017, I think, there was a book called The Chief Engineer, which released a lot of manuscripts from Washington. It changed the whole course of our like, kind of rough outline.

[29:46] Zack Zadek: Well, if you are a Roebling family member, or you know one, get in contact with Kathleen and Peter. I love that your journey is both about authenticity, but also about your personal experiences. And if you were there then and how you can connect to the story, tell us about our second song, "Onward."

[30:03] Kathleen Wrinn: So this is the end of the act. And Washington has fallen ill with the bends and they didn't know what the bends were. They called it something called Cason's disease. But essentially, the majority of him just like didn't work. And so he was ready to resign. And he told Emily, and Emily had another idea.

[30:21] Peter Hodgson: And he'd gotten the bends just for people who don't know from digging down the foundations had to go so deep and the decompressing of coming out of that. And again, this is this whole bridge of firsts. They didn't know how why people were getting sick. But all we knew is that he could no longer continue. And so she only had one choice. So here is Kathleen again singing "Onward."

[30:44] Kathleen Wrinn: When you are there at home, lying in that bed, looking out that window, you'll wish that you were here, leading like you led. So this is where I'll be. And I'll go from here to there. And I'll go from there to here. And you have a bridge in me. And we'll go onward, onward, on to what's next, what's new. To a shore we swore we'd never reach. And suddenly, we're standing on the beach. That's what bridges do. When I am with the men, learning as I go, using all their questions. The workers will never listen to you, Emily. They'll wish that I were you, and knew the things you know. But I won't have to be. For I'll go from them to you. And I'll go from you to them. And they'll have a bridge in me.

And we'll go onward, onward, on to what's next, what's new. To a side we tried but could not meet. Then suddenly, there's a road beneath our feet. That's what bridges do. When the ground is even, and it's miles of open land, we can get across all on our own. But when there is a river, or our legs refuse to stand, that is when we cannot cross alone. That is when we trust a bridge to help us walk on air. Washington, you've got us here. Now let me get you there. Onward, onward, onward, on to what's next, what's new. Onward, onward, onward, to a goal we hold within our sights. Where suddenly, New York is Brooklyn Heights. That's what bridges do.

[34:38] Peter Hodgson: Hopefully that gets you through the 15 minutes and brings you back for acting. I mean, it's very clearly one of those songs where the lights go out after and you're like, what did I just see? I can feel it already.

[34:51] Zack Zadek: Well, thank you both for this beautiful presentation.

[34:54] Kathleen Wrinn: Yeah, thank you so much.

[34:55] Peter Hodgson: Thank you guys for having us.

[34:57] Zack Zadek: Thank you. I'm so inspired to learn more about the bends and this like chamber underneath the water and how it was created. It sounds so fascinating.

[35:06] Kathleen Wrinn: It's unreal.

[35:07] Peter Hodgson: We got songs about that too.

[35:10] Kathleen Wrinn: We have a long sequence about that. So we got you covered, Jo.

[35:16] Zack Zadek: Awesome. Well, thank you, Peter and Kathleen. We'll see you very soon.

[35:19] Peter Hodgson: Thank you guys so much.

[35:20] Kathleen Wrinn: Thank you so much. Bye-bye.

[35:21] Zack Zadek: Well, that's all folks. Episode 25 marks the final episode of The Musicals of Tomorrow, which means we've been able to bring you 50 original culture-shifting musicals. Thank you all for your support. A huge thank you to Pauls Macs and Hector Flores Jr. for their incredible work and everyone at New York Theatre Barn. If you'd like to learn more about these original musicals and New York Theatre Barn, visit us on the web at www.nytheatrebarn.org.