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[0:00] Teresa Attridge: Ever wonder what it takes to make a new musical sing? Our mission is to make the exclusive inclusive.

[0:28] Pauls Macs: We're interviewing the creatives who are changing musical theater one 11 o'clock number at a time. This is your Backstage Pass.

[0:43] Teresa Attridge: This week, we continue our conversation with Justin Huertas and delve deeper into the creative process in his musicals Lizard Boy and Lydia and the Troll.

[0:51] Pauls Macs: We also decide which musical theater characters deserve their own comic book. Actually, on the topic of how writing evolves, like over the course of it, you've been with the story for 10 years, right? That's longer than a lot of people's significant relationships.

[1:04] Justin Huertas: Longer than mine. How do you feel like in the writing of a story, keeping the crux of who that character is, right? Because like you said, Trevor was very much like 21-year-old Justin. Having more perspective in being however many-year-old Justin you are now, what does that look like in terms of going back in the script? Not only like being like, oh, I understand this better, but I can't make him understand it better. How do you hold space for him to stay where he is while you also understand more about who you are?

[1:32] Justin Huertas: Oh my God, what a great question. This has been like a journey as well, because as I, you know, speaking of like significant relationships, my partner, Tyler, who I've been with for over seven years, like I've learned so much about myself. I've just gained so much more or sharper emotional literacy just like being with him. I've gained language about my emotions and my emotional journey. And I'm so eager to feed that back into Trevor. And I tried, I tried. Two years ago in a workshop, I tried to give Trevor the knowledge that I have. It was so funny how flat it fell. It was just like, wait a second. When I give him that information, Trevor becomes my age now instead of how old he is in the script.

He's 25 in the script. And when I give him all of that knowledge, you sit there and you think like, why is he confused about anything? Why is he so lost? And why is he acting out? Why is he lashing out against Carrie? Just now it feels like he's being mean. And so like it took me writing a draft of, we called him, I was 34 during that workshop. I'm 36 now. We call that the draft of 34-year-old Trevor because like that's what it felt like. And it was like, oh, but that's not the story I'm wanting to tell. What's significant about his journey for me is that it happens when he's 25. And, you know, we say a lot of times queer people have two puberties. Yeah, two moments of coming of age. And we have the one that everyone goes through.

And then we have another one where we're like, oh, wait, I'm queer. My reality is different than everyone else's. And now I have to figure out how to be in it. And that was a really important aspect to Trevor's journey for me is making sure that it happens at this specific time. And at the same time, I still wanted to slip in Justin's wisdom now, just so I can clarify what I'm trying to like, you know, share with the audience. So a lot of that actually became Carrie. So a lot of these like moments where Carrie is kind of like telling him, like, I know that you're not trying to be a jerk. You just don't know how to deal with your pain. And it's that kind of language where I'm like, oh, it makes sense for Carrie to say that. Because 25-year-old Trevor can then reject it and then like work through it and then realize, oh, there was a value in what he told me.

[3:50] Pauls Macs: Well, I love that about Carrie. Carrie is so ridiculous in moments and yet simultaneously so emotionally insightful and so wise. He knows who he is and like he knows how to walk through the world. He's just lonely. And that's something that all three of the characters have in common. They're all very lonely people all trying to figure out where they fit in the world. It's easy for me to say, like, well, Carrie is this like very handsome white guy. Yeah, of course he knows how he fits in the world. But another part of Justin wisdom or Justin angst, really, that I was able to kind of feed into there is giving Trevor a moment to acknowledge. But you're a white guy who is walking through the world with your experience.

You can't know what I'm going through. He doesn't say you're a white guy. But, you know, he says he says, look at me, look at you. You couldn't know me. And that's a very new interaction from the past two years. And I think I probably added that in a couple of maybe maybe a year and a half ago.

[4:42] Teresa Attridge: Like which like which when did you see Lizard Boy?

[4:44] Justin Huertas: I went on industry night, which, first of all, I was feeling real fancy. That was my first time as like an invited industry person. And I was like, I'm not going to know anyone. This is crazy. It's just going to be a room full of strangers. Who am I sitting in front of? Technically a stranger, but I know who they are. George Takei. I sat in front in front. I felt him breathe on my head. Like, can you I was so shook. I don't even know. No, truly. I didn't know until I heard a little like a little laugh. It's so funny because, yeah, we were not told we were not told. All we were told is after industry night, stay in costume because we want to do a photo op with a couple industry people. And we were like, sure.

And we were at that point we were just like, oh, we're going to be so sweaty and gross. And I'd rather get out of my costume. But, yeah, fine. We'll do that for you. Our wonderful producers. And so I didn't I didn't know until after the show ended. One of our producers, Carolyn Miller, came backstage with George and George just ran to like the bathroom. And she's like, oh, George just needs to go to the bathroom really quick and then we can take a picture. And I see him going to the bathroom and I'm just like, George Takei. Oh, my God. Saw the show. And Carolyn's like, yeah, you understand now why I didn't tell you that. I was like, yes, I do. I do understand. There's something really poetic, too, about the first time you realize who it is.

It's because he's like running to the bathroom, just like just like a blur. And it's so funny because like we later learned you probably knew this, Teresa. But like he was there for a while before the show started. It wasn't like they ushered at him at curtain. Oh, yeah. He was just sitting there. He was fucking chilling. And the three actors, we go out and tune our instruments and set props and everything on stage in full view before every show. You know, and that's like the whole 10 minutes before showtime. We're out there tuning our instruments. It's a great touch, by the way. Love it. We also try and make an effort not to look at the audience because we're like we're doing our own thing and let's just be in our zone.

And if we need to check in, whatever, whatever, whatever. Like literally, if we had looked out, we would have seen him. But we're just so rigid in our routine that we did not look out. We did not notice. We had no idea. Oh, my gosh. It was a day. It was a day for everyone, but specifically a day for George Takei. George Takei's big day.

[7:05] Justin Huertas: And I think I found out that George Takei was there on B-Reel. Yes, because I hadn't taken my B-Reel yet. And so I was like, oh, my God, wait. Oh, my God, wait. Hey, George, can you take one more selfie with me? And so I have a B-Reel with George Takei in it. There is nothing realer than that. Yeah, truly. Speaking of representation. That's the most real moment. The original sci-fi action fantasy. Asian queer. Right there, baby. Yeah, like an icon. Oh, my God, I couldn't believe it. Captain of the USS Accessior. You can just picture him like in the car going home just being like, I'm just going to make him look like a lizard to himself. Can I do an impression of him? No. Yeah, I thought so, too.

I thought it was great. And you know what? That's fine. I thought that was great. I have literally never attempted it. And that was a wild thing to do first. I loved every second of it. I think we could talk. Unless anybody else want to say anything. We could just talk about Lizard Boy for like four hours, I think.

[8:06] Pauls Macs: I'm wondering, Justin, one more thing about Lizard Boy, which I think will tie our two shows for today together. One thing that as a Seattleite I truly appreciate about your pieces is that Seattle is a character in your work. Just as in the same way, I feel that New York City is a character in a lot of Marvel comics. Can you talk to me about where that came from and why that was important to you? And then we'll talk about how that manifests in Lizard Boy.

[8:29] Justin Huertas: You know what's funny is before I knew really what the story of Lizard Boy really was, I knew it was going to be set in Seattle. Because at that point I was under commission at Seattle Rep, which meant I got invitations to opening night, which meant I saw every opening night that I could at Seattle Rep. They have two spaces, so it happens pretty often, and they have quite a few shows in their season, so I tried to watch every single one of them. They did a production of God of Carnage, and God of Carnage I think is usually set in Brooklyn, but they tried to set it in kind of a wealthier city just near Seattle called Bellevue. I was watching this and watching like, you know, it was subtle differences, but the way they talked, I don't know, it just felt like I was still watching a show set in New York, but for some reason they were trying to trick me into thinking it was local. And that just got me thinking like, wow, every play I've seen has been set anywhere else, like has been set in, you know, New York or London or L.A. or Arizona. And I think I just got...

[10:35] Justin Huertas: High School Musical. Yes! Albuquerque. Yes. Though. And it's like I started getting like annoyed because I grew up in Tacoma, Washington, which is maybe an hour south of Seattle. And then I moved around Seattle a lot. And living outside of Seattle and journeying in to do touristy things, to see shows at the Fifth Avenue Theater or Seattle Rep or something, you know, Seattle became a very mythical place to me. I just got frustrated thinking like, wow, like Seattle's a magical place, and I feel like no one trusts that. No one knows it, but like if they do know it, they just don't trust that it'll maybe sell or I don't know what. I knew that Lizard Boy was going to take place in Seattle, and I knew what that meant for me was like landmarks and like literally the neighborhoods that I hung out in.

Like Lizard Boy is mostly the Belltown neighborhood, which includes like the super famous Seattle local like Burger Joint, Dick's. It includes like Sculpture Park, which is right on the pier, and like it's full of amazing sculptures, and it's like the best location I can think of for a climactic comic book movie fight. It was something that was very important to me. After I created Lizard Boy, you know, audiences came to that original production in 2015. They were excited about the Seattle references, and they were excited that there was a show that was set where they live, and it just got me really stoked to just keep doing it, because I'm like there isn't enough Seattle in the American theater canon, so I'm just going to like build.

I'm going to start building a corner for Seattle, and hopefully people will join, and we'll get more and more, and I think now I have four musicals, original musicals that are set in Seattle. And then Lydia and the Troll deals with the origin of a very specific Seattle landmark, right?

[11:20] Justin Huertas: Broad concept of an Alice in Wonderland journey through mythical Seattle. And that included this landmark in the neighborhood of Fremont called the Fremont Troll. This huge concrete sculpture of a troll holding a life-size VW Beetle. It's under a bridge in Fremont and it was commissioned in like 1990. And now it's just like a really cool tourist attraction and people like go do like the movie 10 Things I Hate About You. There's a whole scene. It's like Larissa Oleynik and Joseph Gordon-Levitt are like talking about my sister. I don't know. They're having a moment. Oh my god. I'm gonna be honest because I was like I've never heard of this before when we got the script. And then I was like yeah then you mentioned 10 Things I Hate About You and I'm like oh I'm a fake fan.

Yeah that's a real place. I think there's another movie that I've never seen that also has a scene set there. But yeah I mean it's been like a really fun touristy landmark that's fun to visit. And if you go to Fremont for like a drink or to go to a restaurant or something it's just fun to like kind of take a little walk to the troll bridge and visit the Fremont Troll. So that was a big plot point in my like Alice in Wonderland type story. But then I just started dwelling on just that concept and then I started getting excited about what the origin of the troll is. And then I trashed the entire concept of Alice in Wonderland and said like okay just the troll. I only care about the troll. So yeah and that was a really fun thing for me because I thought it was going to be a really whimsical family geared story about this like big funny troll.

Because when you look at it in real life it's quite benevolent. It's kind of like nice. It's a kind troll. Yeah it's not a mean troll. So I thought it was gonna be this like you know lovely family story. And then I started really getting into writing it after a really horrible breakup where I just needed to like get some feelings out. And that's where some of these songs came from. Hero of the Story is one of my favorite songs from Lydia and the Troll. And that came out of a breakup imagining my relationship from the other person's point of view. And then I was like oh wait a second. Am I writing a very mature story about how this troll got there? The origin story for the Fremont troll like it might not be as fun and whimsical as I imagined.

It might actually be very very dark and serious. And then it was. What I think is interesting is it's already coming from a very personal place. But as an audience member when I was watching Lizard Boy I was like oh this is so Justin. This is so Justin. And I felt that way as well watching Lydia and the Troll. There were moments where like oh this is so Justin. But I also as I was watching felt like oh but also this feels like a collaborative process. There are other voices telling the story and it's really really exciting.

[14:12] Justin Huertas: Yeah I had this feeling that Lydia was going to be about a singer-songwriter who had all the tools. Had all the tools that she needed to succeed but didn't believe that she had those tools. She exists in a world where she doesn't see you know again representation matters. If you don't see someone who looks like you or someone who acts like you, sings like you, talks like you up on that stage then how do you know whether you can do it? And she didn't have that representation and so she's like it's gonna take a lot for me to just break through the ceiling. And so this character is just like in a really vulnerable place which is the perfect kind of place psychologically to be in for a troll in disguise to come along and try and steal your life from you.

As they do. I was going to read a synopsis and I don't need to because that was way better than the synopsis I found online. So we're good there. And so the parts that are me are the artist aspect and like that insecurity is something that I'm sure you know all of us kind of feel at one time or another. But also something that was contributing to that for me was this really toxic relationship. This codependent relationship that I was in where I felt like oh well if I can't do what I love and support myself he says that I should do something else. And maybe he's right and maybe the thing that he wants to do which is he wants to start a family move up to Mill Creek and he'll support us. And my songwriting and my performance that'll just be a hobby that I don't need to make money off of because we'll have his money.

That was the thing that I knew was going to be true in the story. The very first couple workshops I cast my dear friend Sarah Russell in the role of Lydia and Sarah is a dark-skinned Black woman. And then we brought on Amina Kaplan who is also a dark-skinned Black woman. And it was Amina who was like okay this story is dope and I'm into it. What I'm observing is that you're writing Lydia as an everywoman and you're having Sarah play that everywoman. What happens when you write specifically for the human being that Sarah is? And so we started diving into whatever that meant. And so truly where it stemmed from there's a song where you kind of first see how destructive this relationship between Lydia and her boyfriend Pete is.

And there's a lyric where he is looking back on like the good times and he says we were in this car we were listening to music and I said I love your hair and you accidentally said I love you. And that was just a funny lyric to me. It was based on a real moment that happened with my current partner Tyler where I said I love your shorts and he said I love you. Oh my god. And then like that was our first time saying I love you. So I just thought it was a cute lyric to put in. And it was Amina who was like well this Black woman if someone's saying I love your hair and what she instinctively spits out is I love you there's a reason for that. And so you know we got into the conversations about like you know Amina's experience with her hair and being told that it was like it was kind of a sign of not being polished enough for whatever she was doing like in school your hair is not. All these restrictions kind of being put around Black hair.

[17:24] Justin Huertas: Yeah like the weaponization of the word. Yes absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah like what does that. Yeah yeah you know. And not only that but then once you get into like just the world and it's like now the world has sort of internalized these opinions. I mean like internalized. It's white supremacy for like hundreds of years. That's how we've internalized it. But what those kinds of standards and like those unconscious standards of Black hair and what that does to someone to get them to a point where someone that you're dating that you're not even sure you want to be with says I love your hair and you accidentally say I love you and suddenly like you're in it. So we dove into that. It was just like generous generous collaboration with Amina and with Sarah.

They trusted me with their stories. I did my best to translate them into song and lyric. So that was a huge huge huge kind of leap for Lydia. Once that element was explored I suddenly understood what all of this was about. It's not just I have the tools to be a great songwriter. I'm just afraid or I'm insecure. It's the world has told me Black women can't do this. And so Lydia having to really just push herself through all of that noise to a place where she can just trust in who she is. So it was that and then Stephen Tran who is my frequent collaborator on the music end came on as our music producer. And in envisioning the story Amina was talking about multimedia, projection, shadow puppetry.

All of these cool technical tricks. And Stephen was super inspired by that and inspired by some of my writing which was some of the songs or I was listening to a lot of Billie Eilish's first album. So like there's a lot of like darkness in some of these songs. And Stephen was like where do you go? I know what this is. And so he started creating kind of electronic music that felt dark dark and gritty Billie Eilish. Once the music took a turn that way then Lydia became an aspiring music producer instead of an aspiring songwriter.

[19:23] Justin Huertas: Yeah this is probably like the most collaborative experience I've had working on an original show like this because I had so many amazing voices kind of lending their journeys to Lydia and just making her journey all the more rich for it. I love that that's sort of like the inverse to Lizard Boy in that it was the more you it was the more true the story was. For Lydia the more true you were to somebody else the more you were able to find in it. And it was one of those things where like I didn't know that was allowed at the time you know that was probably like 2018 when we really dove into that kind of work of really exploring Lydia as a Black woman. And I truly in that moment I was like am I allowed to do that?

Amina and Sarah like we're here right next to you. Yes you're allowed to do that. We're doing it together. And I was like oh okay great. Well it sounds like you've been able to pick or just get matched with or you just have the most incredible collaborators. And what's amazing is that when you find someone you work well with you hold on to them but also it seems clear that like you are making an authentic effort to honor their voices. And I'm sure they appreciate that because I know that there are a lot of artists who feel like their voices are invited into a conversation but then they're not really yeah really invited. They're more like a superficial invite. Lydia and the Troll is so exciting because I just believe it shows your versatility as a writer and yet there are just such amazing Justin things. Like I think magic is part of your aesthetic. You know I think magic shows up in your pieces. And like magical.

[20:48] Justin Huertas: Yeah specifically. Especially in theater. Like magic rooted in what we already know versus like a land entirely not here. Like it is Seattle. That's that's great. Stop! You are. Trace is amazing. One of my favorite moments because there's so many great moments in the show. Yes. But one of my favorite moments is there's a chase towards the end. It involves Lydia trying to unlock and getting on one of those lime bikes. Magic. That's where you're talking about magical realism. It's a chase with a troll but it involves a lime bike. Both things are happening at the same time. This is an amazing magical moment and yet I recognize that from my real life in a way that I've never seen that on stage or in a movie before.

Thank you. And that's another one of those things where I just I do very much gravitate toward absurdity. And it just yeah that was one of those things that just kind of made sense to me. Well the troll because you know knowing how the sculpture is structured that I'm writing the show about. It's a troll that's holding a Volkswagen Beetle. If the troll has Pete captured I need that Volkswagen Beetle to get into that troll's hand. So Pete is trapped in the beetle. The troll has the beetle in hand and is running. But now Lydia doesn't have a car and she can't just run. And I'm not going to cut to the bridge where we all get there. I want to know how she got there. I think like it was a joke. I feel like we were talking about it in a workshop and someone said well she probably gets on an Uber bike.

And I was like oh my god. Because of course the thing that pops into my head is you need to take time to unlock it. And now I can put this sizable break in the middle of this climactic song. So funny. She just has to unlock the bike. You know I just love you know messing with the expectation that we all have from action movies. And like just seeing what happens you know.

[22:27] Justin Huertas: Oh yeah. It's the part where you're at the movie and somebody who has to tell everyone their opinion is like bitch go. Exactly. Like it's just a moment where people like feel the need. Yes.

[22:40] Pauls Macs: You're waiting with bated breath and the stakes are so high. And then you go to like the smallest little thing that's not working, which is what people do. You know what I mean? You hyper fixate on the thing you think will help, no matter how crazy it is. And it's just good, good shout out, cause that was probably like, oh man, me who can't ride a bike. I was just living my paradise. Correct me if I'm wrong. Justin, was there a shadow puppet of the line bike? With like the little pedaling?

[23:06] Justin Huertas: Yes, Seattle Rep is amazing. They literally made a deal with Uber to borrow a line bike. We had a real life line bike on stage that needed to be unlocked before every show. And straight up, she takes her time. For me, it's like, take your time because I think it's funnier if it takes you a while to unlock the bike. But then like logistically, one of our shadow puppeteers needed to put his rig on that had the shadow of the troll running with a car in hand. So he needed extra time. So she gave him extra time. Yeah. And then after she rides off stage, then her part is taken over by a second puppeteer played by Sofia Franzella, holding literally, our puppet creator was incredible. A very lifelike shadow of Sarah Russell on a line bike and the feet move and the gears turn. It's wild. It was wild.

[23:59] Pauls Macs: My God, as a puppeteer, I am saying that I did not see this. As a lover of all things fantasy, I really feel like even though you didn't know me at the time, I feel a little betrayed by you for not telling me personally about it.

[24:12] Justin Huertas: I should have.

[24:13] Pauls Macs: So I'm not saying we're fighting, but I am saying I know I'm gonna say it. Yeah, there is some repair that needs to happen. Maybe that's how we'll repair our bonds during this podcast as we're going on this journey together. I'm so excited for this next game because the last two games were Teresa's idea, but I was the one who thought, oh, I think I know what I want to do with Justin. And so our game today we're going to play with each other is we're going to come up with what musical theater characters deserve their own comic book. Can we talk about what their powers are or maybe they already have powers? And I've thought a lot about this already. And so I'm going to start if that's OK.

[24:50] Justin Huertas: Please do.

[24:51] Pauls Macs: You have to. The last show I directed was the 25th Annual Putnam County Spelling Bee. And so I was thinking, oh, you know, William Morris Barfee. He has a magic foot. I want to follow his adventures. But also, I want to know what happens to all those kids. We have an epilogue at the end of the show. But like what happens in between? And also, I want superhero origins for all those characters. Like what happens when Oliver Stravsky gets superpowers?

[25:17] Justin Huertas: Oh, my God.

[25:18] Pauls Macs: Comic book universe. This is?

[25:19] Justin Huertas: Yes.

[25:19] Pauls Macs: The Avengers. Yeah, I want them to all unite as a superhero team. We told you there has some Doctor Strange shit going on. He's already got a cape.

[25:26] Justin Huertas: He's got a cape.

[25:27] Pauls Macs: He kind of just zones out.

[25:30] Justin Huertas: That's good.

[25:32] Pauls Macs: That's it. That's who that is. Other ones I was thinking about. I feel like Into the Woods needs a sequel.

[25:39] Justin Huertas: Oh, yeah.

[25:40] Pauls Macs: And that's already set up in a fantasy story world where magic happens. I mean, the witch has powers. We get I wish at the end. I know it's two acts and it subverts the traditional story structure in the first act by doing act two. We all want to know what happens to those characters in act three. I'm very curious about the baker and the baker's wife's son who was kind of born out of magic. I really think that once he grows up a little bit, there's something. I bet he has powers. I bet there's something happening there.

[26:10] Justin Huertas: Oh, a thousand percent.

[26:11] Pauls Macs: You know, and beyond baking powers, like witch powers too. Somehow the witch manifests in that birth somehow.

[26:21] Justin Huertas: Yeah.

[26:21] Pauls Macs: Oh, yeah. And I bet it's like a journey of him trying to figure out where his power came from, which leads us back to the witch played again by Bernadette Peters in the comic.

[26:32] Justin Huertas: Oh, my God. I'm obsessed with that.

[26:34] Pauls Macs: Played by, but drawn. Like we all just know she was there, even though it's a book.

[26:39] Justin Huertas: Oh, my God.

[26:40] Pauls Macs: Well, like not even hiding that it's just her in the picture.

[26:43] Justin Huertas: How's he got me again?

[26:44] Pauls Macs: Because I feel like we don't have a game where my answer is not Elwood's. And I'm really trying to think of something that's not Elwood's.

[26:48] Justin Huertas: No, I thought of Elwood's too. I thought of Elwood's too. We both love Legally Blonde.

[26:51] Pauls Macs: But the Elwood's.

[26:53] Justin Huertas: Oh, my God. Listen, I don't think I've ever made up a game where my answer wasn't Elwood's, which might be my challenge. But I feel like I would follow like a series of novels about Elwood's solving like cases. It's almost like she does it in a like pushing daisies way, where there's some kind of like magical way she finds the answer and has to solve it.

[27:14] Pauls Macs: Oh, my God. I love that. It's brilliant.

[27:15] Justin Huertas: Didn't you play Emmett in a production?

[27:17] Pauls Macs: I did in a concert, in a concert production of Legally Blonde. We felt really awesome about it. It was me and a dear friend of mine, Alexandria Henderson. Alexandria played Elwood's. She was a black Elwood's and I was a Filipino Emmett. It was awesome. It was awesome.

[27:31] Justin Huertas: Work.

[27:33] Pauls Macs: I played Emmett. That was the last show I ever acted in. That was my grand finale.

[27:37] Justin Huertas: Yes.

[27:37] Pauls Macs: Because Emmett was like make a green roll. Oh, my great Emmett. Oh, the chip on your shoulder. And so I played that. It was a fine experience. I said, I think I'm a director.

[27:45] Justin Huertas: Yes, yes.

[27:46] Pauls Macs: Yeah. Oh, I was good. I kind of am Emmett a little bit.

[27:48] Justin Huertas: Yes, own it.

[27:49] Pauls Macs: I love that you know you were good. People should say that. You were really good.

[27:52] Justin Huertas: No.

[27:55] Pauls Macs: But I'm not as good as Justin, though. Me who hasn't done Legally Blonde and is clearly projecting.

[28:00] Justin Huertas: I don't know.

[28:01] Pauls Macs: I also, I have to be everyone. But specifically, I need to be Enid Hoopes.

[28:05] Justin Huertas: Oh, my God. Yes.

[28:06] Pauls Macs: She comes in, she patters, she leaves. Act two, she comes in, she belts, she leaves. It is the role for the woman who wants to make the biggest impact with the least amount of work. I just love her for that. I would also be very, very interested in a comic book about what happens to Toby.

[28:25] Justin Huertas: That's interesting.

[28:26] Pauls Macs: In Sweeney Todd. We always go to- When I was in Sweeney Todd too, we always go to Sweeney in Legally Blonde. But I love the idea of a really dark exploration of like the people that Toby meets in the psych hospital. And this idea of like, there are other people who are like children of this innate underbelly of London who actually, from what they've witnessed or seen, even if they don't have powers necessarily, they form like some kind of elite Batman-esque type squad. Or maybe like a really dark Teen Titans arc where Toby is like-

[28:57] Justin Huertas: Oh, my God. That's awesome.

[28:58] Pauls Macs: And he uses a little barber knife, but like-

[29:03] Justin Huertas: Oh, my God. These answers are so good.

[29:06] Pauls Macs: Well, what's yours? I want to know your good answer.

[29:08] Justin Huertas: I don't know. Here's the thing is like you say comic book and then my brain goes like graphic novel, like not necessarily a superhero story.

[29:14] Pauls Macs: A thousand percent.

[29:17] Justin Huertas: But like my brain is like, I would love to see the graphic novel of Sunday in the Park with George. I think that that would be like so beautiful. And like, I'm also a huge fan of like Brian Lee O'Malley, like Scott Pilgrim, the whole Scott Pilgrim series. And he also has this amazing graphic novel called Seconds, which is also I recommend. It's so it's wonderful. But the way that he kind of uses negative space for a lot of different, it's just amazing. And I just like think about like white, a blank canvas, turning the page and seeing what happens to the blank canvas as like, you know what I mean? I'm just like, I want that.

[29:57] Pauls Macs: I'm freaking out. I mean, I need it.

[29:59] Justin Huertas: That's perfect. It's a perfect opportunity.

[30:01] Pauls Macs: Yeah.

[30:02] Justin Huertas: Yeah. Those art forms speak so well to one another. I feel like if we're going graphic novel now, we're getting now we're getting now we're getting by well. Look at us. I feel like Cabaret is a great graphic novel. I feel like the potential for just like the things that you can do in pictures that you can't necessarily it's not that you can't do it on stage, but like some of those images when the way you're able to isolate an image and also control the aesthetic of the illustration. Like, for example, I love this in comic books when it's like the difference between a white panel where they've got the six and white, but then it's like a fully black panel. Those smaller aesthetic decisions, I feel like you can really capture the creepy mood of the MC or just even the way that the art style itself would get a little darker and like more shading and just or if it starts to desaturate in color as the war goes on.

[30:50] Pauls Macs: Honestly, why aren't we?

[30:51] Justin Huertas: I know. I think we've found we found we need to do this the next job the next gig.

[30:58] Pauls Macs: Oh my gosh. Justin, have you just put together another one of your little dream?

[31:01] Justin Huertas: Yes, I have. Thank you for coming.

[31:03] Pauls Macs: Which is your superpower. Honestly, I feel like is if there's anything that we've learned about you is that you are the Charles.

[31:11] Justin Huertas: Oh my god. I think that might be it. Let's use that quote.

[31:15] Pauls Macs: Well, and he's got connections at Marvel Comics now. So at 10 years from now, when we're on a Marvel Comics.

[31:19] Justin Huertas: Oh my god.

[31:30] Pauls Macs: One more thing, which is the more really sets up a sequel. I'm not sure there will be a be more. If they do, they have to call it be more chill to the musical. And they have to write Michael in the bathroom. But it's George Takei running to the bathroom by himself.

[31:46] Justin Huertas: Yeah.

[31:47] Pauls Macs: Ooh, yeah. This is great. These are money makers. With that callback. Is that the perfect note to end on? I feel good about it. Should we say we've had an amazing journey together today, my friends? Justin, you are a joy. I know that you two have been buddies forever, which, by the way, is beautiful to see. Look at the both of you. Established artists. Respected. Bespectacled. Killing the game. Bespectacled. It's really beautiful. It's a real joy to watch two people who've grown together a lot admire one another. So thank you for letting me into that space with you all today.

[32:19] Justin Huertas: Teresa, if we hang out the next time I'm in New York.

[32:22] Pauls Macs: Oh, we're going. Find a way to get Greg Cotus to hang out with us. Then what happens is you need to come to Seattle. And then the three of us will hang out. Let me tell you, the moment I have enough free time to fly, I can make that happen at the back of the hat. So it's really just about everyone having the same time off. And then you guys can point to the Starbucks you used to work at. And, oh my god, honestly, it's giving working when you're like, see that building.

[32:46] Justin Huertas: I love that you just did that.

[32:47] Pauls Macs: I can't handle it. I just love that you just did that.

[32:49] Justin Huertas: Oh my god.

[32:51] Pauls Macs: I feel like we can keep going. But I'm just going to say, Justin, this was amazing. Thank you so much for being here.

[32:57] Justin Huertas: Thank you. I love talking about this kind of stuff. This is such a joy.

[33:01] Pauls Macs: Yeah, well, I think for me, having seen Lizard Boy in different iterations or seeing Lydia just recently, it's really exciting to know even more of the story behind the creation of these musicals to see how authentically you're honoring your voice as a creator, but also honoring the voice of your fellow creators and collaborators as well. Thank you again for being here. Honestly, what is there to say except Lizard Boy, run. Lizard Boy, fly. Bye.

[33:27] Justin Huertas: Thanks for listening, everybody. See you next time.

[33:32] Pauls Macs: Thanks for joining us on New York Theatre Barn's Backstage Pass, hosted by Teresa Attridge and Pauls Macs. If you like what you hear, you can like, subscribe, and share. See you next time.