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[0:00] Martín Acuña: Hi everyone, I am Martín Acuña and you are listening to Backstage Talk.

[0:19] Martín Acuña: Hello and welcome back to another episode of Backstage Talk. Today I have the privilege of interviewing the creators of a new musical called The Aviatrix. Today I am with Lily Dwoskin and Casey O’Neil. So thank you for being here. I am really privileged and honored to have you over. I am going to let you introduce yourself for a bit and we'll get going.

[0:47] Lily Dwoskin: Thank you so much for having us. We're thrilled to be here. I'm Lily Dwoskin.

[0:52] Casey O’Neil: And I'm Casey O’Neil, the composer.

[0:57] Martín Acuña: Great. First thing I want to know is, have you ever written a musical before?

[1:04] Casey O’Neil: Oh yeah.

[1:07] Lily Dwoskin: Yes. We've written quite a few, although this was the first that we wrote with each other. But we both attended NYU's Graduate Musical Theatre Writing Program in different years.

[1:21] Casey O’Neil: I actually graduated right as Lily came in, and that's right when we met, was overlapping there.

[1:31] Lily Dwoskin: Yeah. They like to keep the alumni active with the current students. So at one of those alumni mixer type of events is where we met for the first time.

[1:40] Casey O’Neil: Well, long story short, we've both written quite a number of musicals at this point. I mean, we had to have written at least one coming out of the program. But since then, we've both been very active in writing, not just musicals, but plays and other content as well. So we've got a few under our belts at this point.

[1:58] Martín Acuña: That's awesome. Actually, one of the programs I saw when I was going into college was NYU's Musical Theatre Writing Program. And it's just, wow, it's mind blowing.

[2:14] Lily Dwoskin: It was a really great experience. We would both recommend it to anyone who's interested. It's really comprehensive.

[2:22] Casey O’Neil: It is rigorous, but it is incredible.

[2:25] Lily Dwoskin: I went into the program never having written a lyric before. I thought I was a playwright who was going to learn how to be a book writer. And I came out like more confident in my lyrics than I could have ever imagined. I met, you know, 30 other amazing people, not to mention all of the brilliant alumni and faculty who I keep in touch with to this, you know, to this day.

[2:49] Casey O’Neil: Yeah, and I went in not knowing what our extension was. I came from a classical trombone performance and film scoring background and decided to jump headfirst into musical theatre. I, you know, I didn't know who Michael John LaChiusa was, even though he was one of my teachers. So, you know, that program really intensely just was like, here you are, musical theatre.

[3:16] Lily Dwoskin: And you had never seen a William Finn musical.

[3:18] Casey O’Neil: Oh, I didn't know who he was.

[3:19] Lily Dwoskin: Yes, you got it in class.

[3:20] Casey O’Neil: And he's like, wait, you don't, you don't know my shows? I was like, no. But you're right.

[3:28] Lily Dwoskin: But you know now, that's the point.

[3:31] Casey O’Neil: I do, yes.

[3:32] Martín Acuña: So when did you start writing together?

[3:35] Lily Dwoskin: So this was our first project together, although we've been together for some time. Oh gosh, has it been?

[3:43] Casey O’Neil: It's five and a half years we've been together.

[3:45] Lily Dwoskin: Yeah, and we got married a year and a half ago.

[3:48] Casey O’Neil: And we, I mean, we were trying out a couple ideas for shows. Like we, right after we got engaged, we did a trip to Alaska and we wanted to write a show based on the town of Skagway. And we just weren't finding the heart of it. And then we had this weird, you know, weird idea about like a neo swing sort of modernized Macbeth thing. And it was fun for a while, but then we, um,

[4:21] Lily Dwoskin: It didn't hook us.

[4:22] Casey O’Neil: Yeah, we were having trouble with it. And, you know, to get to the genesis of how we got to The Aviatrix, like we, it was really hot. I mean, it was like 100 or something degrees two summers ago in New York City. And we ended up out on the island, hanging out with my family, Long Island, that's where I'm from. And that day we were hanging out with my sister and her kid.

[4:46] Lily Dwoskin: Yeah, and they have the membership to the, um, the Cradle of Aviation Museum in Garden City and invited us to come along. And we were there, you know, we like aviation, but also for the air conditioning. We were taking a little tour with one of the guides. And because I'm mean, and I always ask about feminism, I asked, well, where are the women pilots? They must be here.

[5:16] And he had this little twinkle in his eye. And he said, Oh, just you wait. And he took us over to an exhibit on Harriet Quimby. And they had a mannequin there with her exact purple flying suit next to her Bleriot plane. And he told us her story. And we, I think he had the synchronized mind thing.

[5:37] Casey O’Neil: It was one of those, like, we know each other well enough that we have these silent conversations with each other, where we can read each other's thoughts as the guy is telling us about Harriet Quimby.

[5:48] Lily Dwoskin: And so without like another word, as soon as he was done, we ran over to the gift shop, we purchased her biography. And that night we were reading it, highlighting it, taking notes.

[5:59] Casey O’Neil: And the next day, did we write Look Up?

[6:02] Lily Dwoskin: Yeah, we had a song pretty, pretty fast.

[6:05] Casey O’Neil: Yeah, I think the next version of Look Up back when it was the opening number.

[6:08] Lily Dwoskin: And the show has changed a lot.

[6:11] Casey O’Neil: So that was like, July of 2018.

[6:16] Lily Dwoskin: Yeah, 2019.

[6:18] Casey O’Neil: 2019?

[6:19] Lily Dwoskin: Yeah.

[6:19] Casey O’Neil: Okay, yeah, 2019 that we started it. So, and then we quickly had a draft done. And we were planning to do a reading of that first draft, like April 18 of 2020. And we, the day we sat down with this new director that we were talking to about directing the reading, was the day...

[6:44] Lily Dwoskin: It was the day Broadway shut down.

[6:45] Casey O’Neil: Yeah. So, and, you know, we had heard rumors about everything maybe shutting down. We had this meeting like going like, are we going to meet? Probably, it'll be fine. It'll be two weeks. You know, and then, of course, that got postponed to June and then that got postponed indefinitely. And at which point we were just like, you know, we got to do something with this, which, inevitably, led to what we ended up producing.

[7:13] Casey O’Neil: That is an awesome story about how everything started. And I love that you two have this silent language between you two. And as soon as this guide in the museum started talking about Harriet Quimby, you both, I can imagine, I can picture it in my mind, like you both stare at each other and like did like a little smirk. And you both knew that this was going to be your next project. I mean, that is really awesome.

[7:43] Casey O’Neil: I think we both, when he was telling us about how she was such an inspirational figure, not only in aviation, but to women. And we saw how high she rose in her career, and then so tragically died young. And there was so much irony woven into the story and almost like fate was, it felt like was written into the story inherently. It was just like, how, how have we not heard this before?

[8:14] Lily Dwoskin: Not only that, Casey has like a history of writing about air and space, and I have a history about writing about feminist figures. So it seemed obvious.

[8:23] Casey O’Neil: Yeah.

[8:25] Lily Dwoskin: It was meant to be. I mean, the two of you were meant to write this show. I mean, I'm starstruck about it. It's like the perfect destiny and universe conspiring for you two to write this. So what does this story cover? Because I know, I've seen on your Instagram that you have a lot of performers in the cast, mostly women.

[8:46] Lily Dwoskin: Well, the protagonist of the story is Harriet. And you're right that there are a lot of women in the cast. It's an all-femme presenting cast of seven women. This show is mainly about Harriet, but also a significant character is Mathilde Moisson, who was Harriet's best friend and also the second woman to get her pilot's license in the United States. She's also amazing. And the more we learned about her, the more we were like, oh, what more detail can we add in about her? She went from a supporting character to almost a dual protagonist by the end of this current draft.

[9:35] Casey O’Neil: And may even go further in a further draft.

[9:37] Lily Dwoskin: We have more plans for her, perhaps, in the next draft. Of course, so brilliantly portrayed by Holly Wools.

[9:43] Casey O’Neil: Yeah.

[9:44] Lily Dwoskin: Oh, gosh, I could—

[9:45] Casey O’Neil: They're amazing.

[9:46] Lily Dwoskin: Everyone in the cast is amazing. But pretty much everybody is playing somebody that actually existed in real life.

[9:55] Casey O’Neil: With the exception of the muses, of course. They're a storytelling device, but everyone else—

[10:02] Lily Dwoskin: They also play some real people.

[10:03] Casey O’Neil: Yes, this is true.

[10:04] Lily Dwoskin: We have three muses who are sort of ensemble characters who play many different roles. And they each play a lot of roles, and they each have their kind of path. And we tracked them specifically, and we thought a lot about who would play what role.

[10:21] Casey O’Neil: I mean, they're covering a bunch of other real pilots that were around back then. The adjudicators for the pilot's exam, they cover the man who created the purple flying suit, even though Harriet designed it. We have—

[10:37] Lily Dwoskin: The reporters.

[10:39] Casey O’Neil: Yeah, the VinFizz representative. All people who were either exactly real or are estimations of the exact real people.

[10:49] Lily Dwoskin: It's actually interesting. The history of it all is so fascinating. And the thing about writing a musical based on real life is that there's always so many juicy historical goodies in there, and you don't want to lose any of it. But you also want to have a streamlined narrative that makes sense, it's clear, and tells the truth underneath the truth.

[11:13] Casey O’Neil: Oh, yeah.

[11:13] Lily Dwoskin: So that was very difficult, because I found every single piece of it fascinating.

[11:18] Casey O’Neil: And so did so many members of our team. And they were just like, we don't want to lose this. This part's so cool. And we were like, yes, it is. There's no room for it anymore, though.

[11:28] Lily Dwoskin: So in addition to being the first woman in America to get her pilot's license, and the first woman in the world to fly across the English Channel, Harriet Quimby was also a really successful reporter. And we were able to include a lot of that side of her life in it.

[11:45] Casey O’Neil: But before that, she had a whole years in Hollywood, and she wrote a bunch of screenplays.

[11:53] Lily Dwoskin: She was the first woman credited to write screenplays.

[11:56] Casey O’Neil: And grew up starting on a farm with her mother. And we tried to include little bits of historical nuggets when we could. But it hurt to lose anything, because everything she did was its own musical. It was incredible. And in addition to that, you mentioned the VinFizz. VinFizz was a product by Armour and Company, who were one of the first innovators in marketing. They had their VinFizz flyer, where they were one of the first companies to ever do aerial marketing. And that is its own juicy history, and how that was intertwined. And it could only just be a small part of our show.

[12:43] Casey O’Neil: And I think they were one of the first companies to use sponsors. So to have someone who's a big public figure being your sponsor, and I think that technically made Harriet the first female sponsor for a company, or first female spokesperson. Don't quote us on that.

[13:01] Lily Dwoskin: We have to double check that. But I do think that that's the case. But to circle around, what does the story cover? It's essentially the last two years of Harriet's life, which are the two years in which she flew. And she did so much in those two years. But it was only, I mean, I think it was just slightly under two years. She moves to New York, gets her big time journalism gig at Lesley's Illustrated. And she makes a big splash there. But by doing that job, she accidentally gets introduced to aviation. She went to the

[13:40] Casey O’Neil: First aviation show out in California and that's where she fell in love with the sport and then she met Matilde Moisan and then she met Matilde's brother John who was one of the leading aviators of the day. They literally called him king of the aviators and she coerced him to let herself and Matilde take flying lessons at their school out on Long Island. Right because the Wright brothers weren't allowing women into their school at the time. So that's pretty much where our story starts and it covers her rise and her achievements and her failures throughout that time into when she eventually gets her pilot's license she becomes a national star and ironically a leader of, I shouldn't say leader, an inspiration for feminists across the nation and suffragettes even though she didn't really mean to be.

She was vocal about that she wasn't a feminist. Yeah so that was it's it's an interesting it's one of those interesting things that like we really wanted to write into the show because it's so cool and so interesting and she was a great feminist icon and we need more of those even today but you know she she was vocal about how she wasn't a feminist and then we didn't just we just didn't have room in the show for that based on the story we wanted to tell. So we we follow her trajectory rising, rising, rising into career but also what's just as important if not more important throughout the whole show is her relationship with Matilde who was really from what we have learned they were bosom buddies and they kind of had this falling out from when Matilde the longer she flew the more she realized that one day this guy was going to claim her and that that was really the fate of all pilots who flew long enough including her brother John and so we see that in the show and eventually you know Matilde has an accident decides she's not gonna fly anymore and tries to convince Harriet to not fly but Harriet is so taken by this adventure in her life that she continues to do it until it's too late.

Matilde on the other hand she uh she lived a long life um and didn't fly fly again until World War I I think World War I. It was one of the world wars I don't remember but she flew uh medical planes. Yeah where she flew medical planes um and that was the last time she flew. She lived into her 80s. That is a lot to cover and and it's I mean it has so many twists and turns and and a lot of characters that I can't imagine how difficult it was to to decide what parts of the story fit in. It's like making a puzzle.

[16:42] Lily Dwoskin: Yeah. I really do like to like concentrate on on that part because you both have spoken that you want to portray the story as this feminist icon even though she Harriet Quimby didn't identify herself as as a as a feminist because she is an icon without a doubt and even if she wanted to or not to be one she is. Was that difficult into the writing of the character like deciding what if what happened in real life and what your aims as writers were?

[17:08] Casey O’Neil: Well what's what's uh very interesting about Harriet um because what was what we were taken with most when we first were introduced to her um was was how much she did um and how every how everyone loved her how she was beautiful and charming and it seemingly nothing could stop her um and what we were searching for was some conflict with that because it seemed like everything she did everything she wanted to do she accomplished um and with practically no challenge and that's you know it's not interesting to see a paragon on stage um and we knew there must be some conflicts there because there has to be um and so we we looked within her um and and that's when we really discovered the theme of the show um which is what would you sacrifice for your dreams you know what what are you giving up by going for all that um with the with the feminist thing I I think if she lived today she would identify as feminist um I the movement has grown and changed so much um since then and society has changed and accepted terms differently than they did then um but we did include um one one quote in the show that I really like when she said flying is easier than voting because at the time women weren't didn't have the vote but she had gotten her pilot's license that's harsh that is harsh oh yeah.

[19:03] Lily Dwoskin: I would I would just add to that you know I I think I think we we ultimately decided whether it was conscious or not that we needed to find ways to show how much of an amazing feminist icon she was despite how she felt as opposed to telling people as opposed to telling people she was and you know we didn't have to write a story we didn't have to write a plot around her iconicism if that's the term around her her icon-ness uh as as a woman leading in a field that in multiple fields that men dominated and so do you yeah and just showing her doing it I think was enough and we didn't need to waste any structural areas in the show on on telling you something that you could just perceive through the rest of the story and I I think we did a good job of that and I think that she's an inspirational character regardless of the fact of how much we leaned on that theme yeah we went back and forth on how much misogyny to actually show that like to portray in the show um and I I think we struck a good balance with it it's it's there but it's not like you're seeing the patriarchy over and over again um and one important thing I think decision you made was to cast an all-fem presenting cast really puts the story in the hands of women takes it away from the patriarchy.

[20:37] Casey O’Neil: Yeah I I honestly want to see the show like I want to know more about it I want to see it produced I want to I need a cast recording I need to dive in into this let's get this pandemic over um so what how is the writing and composing process?

[21:00] Lily Dwoskin: Yeah you've got a lot of information so you had to cut I guess big chunks of literal history to fit them in into a maybe two hour and a half show and I mean so much we could have we could have written probably six musicals out of the amount of content that her life provided and even even though the information on her out there is slim relative to other historical figures it was it was enough that we could say this is amazing this is amazing this is amazing this is amazing over the course of her 38 years and and then be able to do our own interpretation and to tell our to to focus on her story in a way that we feel we could tell it so it's like just that perfect balance there wasn't too much and there wasn't too little but to to to find the focus I mean we really thought about what is our theme what are the concepts that we were trying to tell and then we decided what the what the beats in her life were that helped tell that story and we wrote a lot of songs um while we were figuring that out um we like to joke that we could fill a second musical with the amount of songs we cut and rewrote it's less of a joke and just more of a statistic it's just reality I think I think we had something like 18 cut songs from between draft one and draft two in what there were 22 zones in the show yeah yeah something like that but it was basically like we wrote to figure it out um and we have uh you know what a giant white board filled with uh song titles and lists of things that we wanted to go back to I highly recommend whiteboarding it is just it is the fiber of musical theater writing um and I feel really fortunate um to be able to work with Casey as a composer who's really loves to uh contribute to the story because I am a book writer who doesn't like to do it by myself I don't know that she's lucky I know I thrive in the collaboration um and having somebody to really talk about this amazing woman puts up with me so much and my obsess my obsessive watching of videos on story structure and plot and character writing between Dan Harmon and Brandon Sanderson it's just constant but that was where we unlocked this second draft yeah um because we were struggling we were like this doesn't feel like it's it's really fulfilling by the end and like we know these are the beats we want how like how do we get there um and it was just something you said about oh these are all the correct beats but they're just you know one off they're one too early um on the story story circle yeah and if we just shifted everything over a little bit um we're gonna get to the heart of it.

[24:06] Casey O’Neil: Yeah I think that was the same conversation where we had the crazy idea to put on a socially distant music movie musical oh both of these things are my fault.

[24:21] Lily Dwoskin: Don't apologize it was a crazy time and we had a lot of fun yeah um but I mean uh sorry I was going to expound on process uh if um I don't know if that's interesting but uh I mean obviously we live together we're married and so constantly writing together and being at home all the time at the height of the pandemic uh or at least at the height of lockdowns was just an opportunity for us to stay incredibly motivated and to keep writing writing writing writing and to say all right well we hit this beat and what are the next beats that we want to hit and then we would just make a checklist and we would just go bang bang bang bang bang and knock them off and then you know once we brought some some members of our team on board like our director Ellie uh and Ellie was at script meetings with us once a week yeah that was extra motivation to have something to show her at the meeting so it was definitely a motivation and I'd say there was maybe an even amount of you writing first and me writing first.

[25:25] Casey O’Neil: Yeah there were actually quite a few music first moments um I like I like a music first I find the song tends to be cashier that way I think I do my better work if if I'm just kind of like tossing stuff without you know with without an ambition um on onto the page and then just being like hey Lily can you put words on this.

[25:44] Lily Dwoskin: Yeah I mean as a lyricist I work best I think when there's at least a seed of a song when there's something I can listen to in my head to write to and what what does the musical sound like it's an excellent question um I've been struggling with this question which is not uh which you know is not what a composer for musicals should struggle with because I'm supposed to be able to say well it's this meets this you know in an elevator pitch but it's definitely the most different thing I've ever written like I come from a classical background and a lot of my stuff has been highly influenced highly influenced by that and by the the jazz in my background as well uh so the last two musicals I wrote before this uh Cat Massacre was the Great Cat Massacre uh that I wrote with Greg Moss uh we co-wrote everything it was very jazzy very sort of lived in that weird area of um like Little Shop and Urinetown and those strange little musicals that have fun punchy maybe jazzy scores um but also contemporary musical theater and then you know Danny and the Rocket was kind of this ethereal show uh you know in a lot of ways but also had some fun contemporary musical theater this one I don't know well you've I think you can see all of that in there um but also a strong influence of pop because you started getting into pop music in the last like two years yeah way late in the game I mean I just started listening to like 80s and 90s pop I just I just started listening.

[27:21] Martín Acuña: Welcome back to Backstage Talk! Today, we have the incredible creative team behind the new musical, The Aviatrix. Please welcome Lily Dwoskin and Casey O’Neil!

[27:51] Lily Dwoskin: Hi, Martín! Thanks for having us.

[28:11] Casey O’Neil: Hi, Martín! It’s great to be here.

[28:31] Martín Acuña: I’m excited to dive into your project. The Aviatrix tells the story of Harriet Quimby, the first female pilot in the United States. What inspired you both to create this musical?

[28:51] Lily Dwoskin: Well, I’ve always been fascinated by Harriet Quimby. She was such a trailblazer in a time when women were not given many opportunities. Her story is not just about aviation; it’s about breaking barriers and pursuing dreams.

[29:11] Casey O’Neil: Absolutely! When we started working on this musical, we wanted to highlight her achievements and the struggles she faced. It’s a story that resonates with so many people today.

[29:31] Martín Acuña: That’s a powerful message. Can you share a bit about the creative process? How did you both come together to work on this?

[29:51] Lily Dwoskin: Casey and I met through a mutual friend, and we instantly clicked. We both shared a passion for storytelling and musical theatre. Once we started brainstorming ideas, Harriet’s story just felt like the perfect fit for a musical.

[30:11] Casey O’Neil: We spent a lot of time researching her life and the era she lived in. It was important for us to portray her accurately and respectfully while also making it engaging for the audience.

[30:31] Martín Acuña: Research is key! How did the pandemic affect your work on The Aviatrix?

[30:51] Lily Dwoskin: The pandemic was challenging for everyone in the arts. We had to pivot our approach and find new ways to collaborate. We did a lot of virtual meetings and workshops, which allowed us to keep the momentum going.

[31:11] Casey O’Neil: It also gave us time to reflect on the story and make it even stronger. We used that time to refine the script and the music, ensuring that every element served the narrative.

[31:31] Martín Acuña: That’s a great way to look at it. What can audiences expect when they see The Aviatrix?

[31:51] Lily Dwoskin: They can expect a heartfelt journey filled with inspiration, music, and a bit of humor. It’s a celebration of a woman who dared to dream big and the challenges she overcame.

[32:11] Casey O’Neil: And we hope it sparks conversations about women in aviation and the importance of representation in all fields.

[32:39] Martín Acuña: I love that! Where do you see the musical going next? Any upcoming performances or plans?

[33:07] Lily Dwoskin: We’re currently working on a workshop production, and we’re excited to share it with audiences soon. We’re also exploring opportunities for a full production.

[33:37] Casey O’Neil: Yes, we’re eager to get it in front of people and see their reactions. It’s such a rewarding part of the process.

[34:07] Martín Acuña: That’s fantastic! I can’t wait to see where this journey takes you both. Before we wrap up, do you have any advice for aspiring creators in the musical theatre world?

[34:35] Lily Dwoskin: My advice would be to stay true to your vision and don’t be afraid to take risks. The world needs new stories, and your voice matters.

[35:03] Casey O’Neil: I completely agree! Collaborate with others, learn from feedback, and keep pushing forward. It’s a tough industry, but passion and perseverance go a long way.

[35:31] Martín Acuña: Wise words! Thank you both for joining me today and sharing your insights about The Aviatrix.

[35:55] Lily Dwoskin: Thank you for having us!

[36:25] Casey O’Neil: Yes, thank you!

[36:55] Martín Acuña: And to our listeners, make sure to follow The Aviatrix on social media to stay updated on their journey.

[37:25] Lily Dwoskin: You can find us on Instagram and Facebook!

[37:53] Casey O’Neil: We’d love to connect with everyone!

[38:21] Martín Acuña: Don’t forget to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts! Your feedback means a lot to us.

[38:51] Lily Dwoskin: Thanks again, Martín!

[39:21] Casey O’Neil: Yes, thank you!

[39:47] Martín Acuña: A big shout-out to Juan Hernández and Andrea Martínez for our wonderful intro and outro music.

[40:15] Lily Dwoskin: It’s been a pleasure!

[40:41] Casey O’Neil: Absolutely!