This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:05] Jan Svendsen: Welcome to the Broadway Gives Back Podcast.

[0:07] Jan Svendsen: I'm your host, Jan Svendsen.

[0:10] Jan Svendsen: This podcast spotlights Broadway actors, shows, and organizations in their pursuit of social impact and philanthropy.

[0:17] Jan Svendsen: Join us as some of the brightest lights on Broadway share their stories about their favorite charities and how they got involved and the people and causes who benefited from these philanthropic efforts.

[0:33] Jan Svendsen: My guest this week, Naila McKenzie Ross, is the Disney Theatrical Productions Director of Inclusion Strategy, Business Affairs, and Legal Counsel.

[0:43] Jan Svendsen: She oversees all aspects of diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts, as well as serving as in-house counsel for Disney Theatrical Productions Broadway Domestic and International Live Stage Business.

[0:56] Jan Svendsen: Naila is a board member of the Black Theatre Coalition, the Broadway Advocacy Coalition, as well as an active member of the Equity, Diversity, and Inclusion Committee of the Broadway League.

[1:07] Jan Svendsen: She is a founder of Ensemble, Disney Theatrical Productions first employee resource group, created to support historically excluded and underrepresented communities in the theatrical ecosystem.

[1:20] Jan Svendsen: I am so happy to have her here today. Naila, welcome to the Broadway Gives Back Podcast.

[1:25] Naila McKenzie Ross: Thanks so much for having me, Jan. It's exciting to be here.

[1:28] Jan Svendsen: Well, I think this is an important conversation, but before we start that, I would love to do a quick icebreaker Q&A with you, because we don't really know each other, so this way I can get to know you a little bit better and our listeners can get to know you too.

[1:40] Naila McKenzie Ross: Great.

[1:40] Naila McKenzie Ross: Is that all right?

[1:42] Jan Svendsen: All good.

[1:43] Jan Svendsen: Okay, so if you could be a member of any fictional family from a Broadway show, a movie, or a TV show, what family would you choose to be a part of?

[1:54] Naila McKenzie Ross: So I really love this question because I feel like it's like Broadway show families are set up to be dysfunctional by design. So it's like I wouldn't mind being the fly on the wall for like August: Osage County or something like that, but I wouldn't want to be in the family. I don't know that I would survive, but I would, you know, want to be like observing the family. But when I really think about it, probably like the families that resonate the most for me are those chosen family shows. So Girlfriends was one of the first shows that I ever saw that really reflected like multidimensional Black women in television. And I really felt like I saw aspects of myself in each one of the characters, and I just love that they were sort of like this chosen family of sort of these Black women in all different areas and aspects of their professional lives and their personal lives. And so I would have loved to have been like in that chosen family. That's sort of my dream family if I could have had one.

[2:56] Jan Svendsen: What are three words that you think describe you?

[3:02] Naila McKenzie Ross: Um, so my husband would say that I am relentless and all, and like he says that with so much love, like in a really positive way. Also with like a tiny bit of side-eye, but relentless in that, you know, once I have an idea or a goal, like I'm very sort of in dogged pursuit of that, which I think has served me well in the work that I do. And then the other words I would use are cynical and dreamer. And I think they actually go together. Because I think, again, in order to sort of be in this work in a way that feels sustainable, you do have to kind of be practical about humans and systems and their limitations, and understand that, you know, sometimes progress happens incrementally. And so there's needs to be like a sprinkling of cynicism, but you also need to stay dreaming in order to stay motivated and passionate. So I kind of like the combo of those words together.

[4:08] Jan Svendsen: I've never thought of it that way, but I like that. What's the last book you read, or what are you reading right now?

[4:14] Naila McKenzie Ross: Oh my gosh, I'm reading How to Catch a Mermaid with my son. Honestly, I'm really interested to find out what happens at the end. We're at this page space now where he's seven, so we're reading chapter books, and I'm like, thank God we're reading chapter books because I actually can get into these plots and these narratives. So that's actually the official book that I'm reading right now. And I also started The Witcher because I'm a total sort of sci-fi and fantasy nerd. So because the work I do every day is very like you probably thought I was gonna give you some serious book, like, oh, I just finished reading, I don't know, the last Cornell West book that he wrote or something, but because I have to do all of that sort of in my everyday job, I love sort of escaping into fantasy and sci-fi. So I bought The Witcher, but I have not started it because I'm too busy reading to my son at the end of the night.

[5:04] Jan Svendsen: I can't wait to hear what happens at the end of the mermaid book. What is your most used emoji?

[5:12] Naila McKenzie Ross: Oh, that's a good one. Oh wow, I love that one. Probably like this one with the—sorry, I know this podcast—it's the one where like your hand is on your head and you're just like, oh my god. It's that one. And then also the one I send to people a lot is like king and queen emojis. I'm always telling people they're kings and queens. So probably those two.

[5:37] Jan Svendsen: When you go to a karaoke bar with your friends, what is your go-to karaoke song?

[5:43] Naila McKenzie Ross: Oh my—okay. See, you asked the wrong person for this because I actually have about 15 songs in my iPhone on notes for what I sing when I go to any sort of karaoke bar. So, um, because I love singing. Um, let's see. The thing that I probably always sing is—I'm not kidding you. This is my karaoke song list. Uh, "Satisfied," obviously from Hamilton. "I Dreamed a Dream." "Titanium." "Set Fire to the Rain." "Turn Me On." "Foolish Games." Shall I go on? There's so many on the great.

[6:22] Jan Svendsen: Okay, I've asked that question to other people and nobody has shown me a list of karaoke songs like you have.

[6:27] Naila McKenzie Ross: Oh, I'm serious about my karaoke.

[6:29] Naila McKenzie Ross: So very serious.

[6:30] Jan Svendsen: And last question, what are you most grateful for today?

[6:37] Naila McKenzie Ross: So I have to say I'm most grateful for people taking a chance on me, even if they didn't fully understand how maybe I fit into a space or my vision. And I think we'll talk a little bit about this as we sort of get into bits and pieces of my story, but like I think back to our English professor in high school who was also like the drama teacher, because you know they always sort of moonlight as the drama teacher. And so he cast me as Fiona in Brigadoon, which was such a—it was like a turning point in my life at the time. I went to a school that was primarily white, and I was really involved in theater and music, and I'd always kind of been cast as like the sidekick or like I was Ursula in Bye Bye Birdie.

I was like the apple seller in Annie, you know, so and I think when we get to talk about casting conversations now, I think it'd be so different, right? Today, but he cast me as Fiona in Brigadoon, and I remember just feeling so shocked and also so grateful for his vision and the fact that he was like, "No, this little brown, you know, Blasian woman, she can play this role, she can sing it, she can act it. I'm gonna put her up on that stage with a primarily white cast too." It wasn't like we were doing like a, you know, all the colors of the rainbow Brigadoon. It was like, nope, Fiona is brown and everyone else is not. And that moment really solidified for me the power of vision, because I think it changed the way that I saw myself, it changed the way that I saw the world, it cemented my passion for theater and how we can break down walls and boundaries, specifically in this space, and how powerful that moments like that can be for like such a young person, and also folks who are older when we go in a space and we see something and we are changed by theater in the audience. I'm really grateful for people like that in my life.

[9:05] Jan Svendsen: Yeah, there's so much to talk about. I want to start with a little bit of your story. So, and I was just gonna ask you this question but now I understand where it comes from. You went to Harvard undergrad and law school, right?

[9:17] Naila McKenzie Ross: Yeah.

[9:18] Naila McKenzie Ross: But you took a hiatus from law school to go study classical acting at the London Academy of Music and Dramatic Arts.

[9:24] Jan Svendsen: And I was gonna ask you what prompted that break, but now I think I understand. But still, that's a pretty bold thing to do in the middle of law school. What was going through your head at the time? What did you know motivate you?

[9:37] Naila McKenzie Ross: Yeah, there's a quote by Goethe that one of my good friends always talks about is like boldness has greatness and genius in it. I'm probably got it somewhat wrong, but I really think back to like that fearlessness that I think many of us have when we're in our teens and 20s and sort of I don't know that I would have made a decision like that today with all of the different considerations that I would think about with like family and finances. But I've always, as I mentioned, had a love for theater and the performing arts, and so it's been a through line in my life from the very first talent show that I performed in when I was like five years old, and it's been at the intersection of my identity.

Like I spoke about the Brigadoon moment which was really as much a theater moment as it was also an identity moment for me. And when I performed in my first talent show when I was five, I'm a Black woman of African-American and Japanese descent, and so I was raised very much in both cultures. I speak Japanese fluently. So for my very first talent show when I was five, I actually danced a classical Japanese dance and sang this song called Sakura in Japanese, and it was a way for me to express my identity, but also for the first time I saw how fascinated people were by this experience of seeing someone kind of that they weren't expecting speaking a language that they weren't expecting to come out of their mouth and dancing, and it was just again like the moment of seeing performance and its impact on both them and me, and really feeling so fulfilled in that moment.

So that's why performing arts for me has always been like a through line, a way to sort of self-actualize, but also to change people and change what they think could be possible. And so I knew going into law school that I needed to always have something to do with the arts in my life. So I actually auditioned for Lambda at the same time that I applied for law school, and I got into both, and then I decided I was going to go to law school for a year, and then Lambda was so gracious, they allowed me to defer my acceptance and go there for a year. And really in my head, I was like, I'll do one, I'll do the other, and then I'll make a choice. I thought it was gonna be so simple. I didn't quite think about the law school loan part of things and like how that's not a choice.

Once you're in, you're in. But I mean, it was the most amazing experience. I mean, just eating, breathing, living theater and Shakespeare, Jacobean drama, and like learning from these talented, passionate artists and being with people who were of like my same age and who were from all across the country and the UK, and just living and breathing drama every day.

[12:25] Naila McKenzie Ross: It was incredible. Um, and then we came and did a showcase right off Broadway and I think I still have the showcase. I want to say it was at New 42nd, but it was at one of the theaters that I know we go sometimes we have our Disney developmental workshops at. Um, so it's cool that I came full circle when I started working at Disney to be in one of those spaces that we did our showcase. But I realized the reality of being in the business as an actor is very different than being in drama school, right? Like you can't just play any role you want. Like you can't just, you know, perform without thinking about like how much you're gonna get paid. Like it's just there was something to the business of being an actor that did not appeal to me as much as I think the study of it.

And so I knew that I wanted to finish law school. Um, at the end of that experience, I went back and I had the most incredible year at law school doing constitutional law and contracts law and torts and all of torts of intra that's basically the law of really personal injury. Um, and it was a moment for me to kind of just, and I've always I think learned this about myself, you don't have to be one thing and that's okay and that's kind of the theme of my life.

[13:51] Jan Svendsen: Well, you are definitely not one thing, but Disney is so lucky to have you. Um, thank you. Um, I started this podcast about a year ago, and I ask a lot of the guests. I've had about 50 guests, and I asked a lot of the guests, you know, if you could change one thing about Broadway or what's one important aspect of Broadway that you would want to, you know, see improved. And I would say like 90% of the guests have said um equity, inclusion, diversity. Um, so I think I was really looking forward to this conversation because I think it's so on point with what's going on in the world, what's going on in our industry and our community, but also um what's so top of mind for um so many of the people that are talking about Broadway right now, and especially as Broadway is coming back yet again from this pandemic, um, you know, there are so many opportunities to make an impact.

Um, and so I wanted to ask you, you're the first official sort of director of inclusion strategy um at Disney, and um you guys are currently um deep in the rollout of this anti-racism inclusion training for employees. And I wondered what does that actually mean when you say what like what is the training include?

[15:12] Naila McKenzie Ross: In order to do that, we need to go all the way back to June of 2020. Um, because I think to be clear, I think the Walt Disney Company has actually been advancing many of these values for a long time, but never, and I'll be honest here, and people will say this about me, and I will say it first. I am Disney's biggest fan, but also one of Disney's biggest critics. In order to do this role effectively, I have to be able to hold both of those truths at the same time so that I can continue to push us forward while acknowledging the progress that we are making. And I have to be able to be honest about both of those things, right? So um, so I will acknowledge the inroads that we had made as a wider Walt Disney Company business as well as Disney Theatrical Group before June of 2020, when some folks kind of became aware of what had been going on, as we all know for centuries, right?

So in June of 2020, so Bob Chapek, our current CEO, he actually, for the first time ever, made a public announcement about the company's commitment to equity, diversity, and inclusion on a shareholder call. Now that's like maybe doesn't mean a lot to some people, but it's so critical that on a business call that typically would not have really included conversations about EDI, which sort of always felt like they lived in this HR world, that the head of the business said this is a key priority, a business priority for the company. We are acknowledging here and now that this is top of mind. And that was really the formalization of the sea change that we've seen throughout the entire, I would say, business world, but also our company and really starting to formalize and strategize around this work.

[16:59] Naila McKenzie Ross: So what he then did was um in partnership with our chief diversity officer Latandra Newton, rolled out an EDI strategy based on these seven pillars. And those pillars are, as I was saying before, um, transparency, representation, culture, accountability, community, and content. And so let's talk about each one because there's a lot behind each one of those words, right? Transparency is about what progress are we making? What information do we have that we can share when it comes to representation and our progress in this space, whether it's content, culture, representation of above a beep for all of our company, it's sort of like in front of the camera, behind the camera, on stage, off stage, right?

How are we transparent about the data and how do we communicate it both to our employees and our audiences? So then we can also track our progress. If we're not actually transparent about that, we can't see where we are and where we need to go. And we can't celebrate our wins, right? So transparency is really key to understanding the road that you have to travel, um, and being able to tell the story about where you've been.

[18:15] Naila McKenzie Ross: Accountability is about when we say all those wonderful things that folks said on social media, right? And black lives matter and we care and we're here and we stand in solidarity. Accountability is about okay, one year, two years, three years later, what have you actually done to live those values? And how are we going to hold ourselves accountable to that? What systems do we have in place, whether it is um employee resource groups or different leadership um teams that have conversations around this or establishing roles like mine within businesses to make sure that we're staying accountable to the values that we publicly stated we care about? Um, so that's what accountability is about. Like, how do we actually stay true to the values that we are espousing to the world?

Um, community is about something that, and I think something that we've always done really well as a company. How do we get back to the communities that we inhabit? Whether it is like the parks or it's 42nd Street or it's America, how are we actually right? How are we the world, right? Thinking about the reach of our content. How are we actually making the communities better that consume our content that are in our theaters? And how do we continue to cultivate the next generation of folks who are going to be in those seats or actually the creators of that content? So community is such a huge part, I think, of the work. I mean, all of this really intersects and informs one another, but community is something that I think Disney as a brand has always been very, very good about.

[19:53] Naila McKenzie Ross: Content, right? So much conversation around content right now, and how do we tell stories that are authentic, that are culturally specific? How are we putting together creative teams that can actually speak to that authenticity through lived experience? Um, that is really creatively, how are we creating inclusive spaces where folks can bring their thoughts and ideas in a way that feels open and honest? Um, that's what content is about. How are we connecting with our audiences that have always reflected the diversity of the world? But how are we reflecting it back to them in the content that we're creating? Um, but before you leave the content question, I think content is so critical, right? But it's also when you think about it, who's making the decisions and who has the power to decide what content is actually being performed in the case or what stories are being told.

[20:49] Naila McKenzie Ross: So does that go along with content? 100%. So and that goes that goes together with sort of exactly what you stated, right? Who is actually choosing the creative teams as well as who is in who who's on the creative teams and who's at the table when these ideas come forward, right? Who's actually even choosing the ideas that get made? Who is supporting financially the content and that within our industry, right? Specifically, that's so important, like which theaters are going to actually support which content, which play or which musical. Um, yeah, making sure that the folks who actually are the decision makers at the very top that are the gatekeepers, that the gatekeepers look different, but also the gatekeepers are educated on how they can create spaces that look different and keep those spaces looking different, right?

That is about retention and sustainability. We can't just bring people into the room and expect that they're gonna feel like they can share if they were never in the room before. And we're we also have to be mindful of, and this gets to the training piece. I'm gonna diverge for a second. Um, because this is where training and culture, so we'll talk about the culture pillar, um, are so critical. You can get the representation pillar, which is about making sure that our employees are performers, our office staff, our box office staff, our ushers, that they reflect the world that we are in this always diversifying, but always very much has been diverse American um fabric that we're in right now, being very specific to like where our work sits, even though we are international, my work focuses in on sort of our North American um spaces.

And so once we do succeed or start to increase on the representation pillar, how do we retain, keep, and make sure that people are who are in these spaces feel heard and are heard and have real positional power and influence? Um, and that is culture goes to that because it's those micro systems that can really undermine your culture. You can have a culture of like saying, okay, we want everyone to bring their ideas, we welcome folks from all different lived experiences, we have this beautiful creative team now that we put together of folks from all different backgrounds. But if the culture doesn't support it, if in your meetings, let's say there's multiple microaggressions that occur, right, and end up silencing the voice of the people that you've brought into the space, it doesn't matter how inclusive you think your space is, your microsystems have now undermined it.

[23:35] Naila McKenzie Ross: So culture for us is about educating people very clearly on what does exclusion look like and what does inclusion look like? What do microaggressions look like? And when we built our training, we took the Walt Disney Company's sort of overall corporate training, but knowing how theater people are, and how first of all, how critical we all are about anything that involves some sort of like presentation or performance, which is what usually these trainings are somewhat there's there's a performance and presentation aspect to them because we do them live and facilitated, but also knowing how specific our ecosystem is. Like we're not a film, we're not television, we're not a business, like we're not sort of a, you know, um, a bank.

So it needs to feel real and authentic and relevant to us. So we piloted those trainings with a cross section of employees across all of our sort of landscape. So um stagehands, um, actors, musicians, accountants, and made sure that they felt like, are we actually is this?

[24:43] Naila McKenzie Ross: Did you even is this microaggression even relevant to you? Have you heard this before? Or what are the ones that you actually have heard so we can educate our entire business about the 10 or 15 that everyone keeps on hearing over and over again? So that never happens again. So we customized it and we made it bespoke for our folks. And then we rolled it out to 600 plus employees across our productions and our office staff. And I would say that it was the equivalent of having almost the equivalent of having one-on-one conversations with every person in our business about how they felt either included or excluded. And it was invaluable information for us to have in something that we could not have gained in any other way, I think.

And we raised sort of the bar as to like, okay, here's the standard because we mandated it. So we said, here's the standard of what everyone needs to know going into a room, no matter what your role is. You need to understand what these things are in order to be a good employee, in order to be a collaborative colleague, in order to just be the kind of human being we want representing Disney Theatrical Group. And in order for us to live our values, we have to say this is the standard, this is the bar. So that's I think the philosophy behind inclusion training.

[26:15] Naila McKenzie Ross: Is those who need it most are not necessarily the ones who are going to benefit from mandatory inclusion training. But we're looking for Ney Myers, who I really have a lot of admiration and respect for as the head of inclusion strategy for Netflix always says, you don't need everyone to be on board, but you need the people who have influence to be on board to make change. And so this idea that somehow we would change everyone's hearts and minds, I think this is where the cynical dreamer in me comes into play. That's not realistic. But if we can change enough people or get enough people on board to have the tools to make change who have enough influence and power in our system, that's what we need. So that's a long way of talking about training.

[27:07] Jan Svendsen: No, no, no. I think it's really interesting. Can you give me an example of you know this idea of these microaggressions? I think we're people are aware of it, but then they're not aware of it at all, you know? And can you take us through an example? It could be something made up or it could be something that actually happened, where there was a situation and there was a microaggression and how it was dealt with and how it was communicated and how like the process worked and the outcome.

[27:38] Naila McKenzie Ross: Yeah. Um there's one that I think if you have any black folks listening to this, which I'm sure you do, will be quite familiar to them. It's the articulate microaggression. And this one happens, and I use this one a lot because it actually happens, I hear it at least once a month. No, that's not no exaggeration. And it's a perfect example of a microaggression that is intended to be complementary, but is unintentionally invoking stereotype and harm really for a specific community. So I'll just I'll be as neutral as possible. So we had a really interesting presentation that myself and a colleague were watching, and there was this fabulous black executive who was presenting and did like a stellar presentation, and the person texted me and was like, they were so articulate.

Oh my gosh, I totally understand why they did like this emoji holding my head emoji. Um and here's a few things that are important about microaggressions. There's not like one size fits all way to respond to microaggressions. I don't believe in that. I actually think that we first have to think about what's your position with respect to the person who has enacted the microaggression, the source of the microaggression, as we would call it. And if you don't feel comfortable addressing it for whatever reason with that person, it is okay for someone who is the target of a microaggression to say, I don't feel like dealing with this today. In fact, I think I'm just gonna sit on this one, and maybe if I hear it again, or maybe I'll talk to a friend, that's a okay.

So I think you know, there's this sort of idea that like, oh, we all have to like react to them, particularly when you're the target and you've heard things like this over and over again, there is no onus on you to have to address that. So I think that's important to say, particularly for folks in historically underrepresented and excluded communities. But if you have the emotional space and energy to take that moment, there's a few ways you can address it. And we use this sort of framework that is the framework that you use to actually provide feedback to someone. And first you sort of identify the situation in very neutral terms without sort of bringing any sort of color to it or judgment.

[30:20] Naila McKenzie Ross: Like a dispassionate summary of what happened. Yes. And you basically say, So, you know, when we saw that presentation where so and so was presenting, and you said they were articulate, boom, factual summary. Then you talk about how that landed and why potentially it might have landed in a negative way. So when you said so and so was articulate, I'm not sure if you know, but that is that's something that for the black community is actually a pretty old school stereotype that it really actually kind of suggests that most black folks aren't articulate, and so this person is somewhat special or exceptional when really they're not. They just happen to be presenting well. Um, and so to highlight that as if they were articulate, articulate actually means that they can speak fluently, and so it means that you're setting the bar kind of low for our community.

Boom. I explain the microaggression. And I always like to add if you if you have the emotional bandwidth, I call always say this bandwidth is important. You can give the person grace and say, I know you may have intended this as a compliment. So you can always add that on at the end or the beginning. Sometimes that gives the person space to hear, um, and to really be able to express curiosity around what it is you're about to say, but also not something you must do. Something if you have the emotional bandwidth to do people have heard these over and over again, kind of run out of that emotional bandwidth. Uh, but to say I know you intend it as a compliment, and in other circumstances it might be, but here's why it's not specifically for our community.

And sometimes I follow up with an article, there's a really good article specifically on this one about Kamala Harris and Barack Obama that's on the New York Times that you can send. It's literally on this topic.

[32:25] Naila McKenzie Ross: So it gives it gives the person who may be going into a defensive place of oh, she's sensitive, or she's, you know, as we would call like an eggshell plaintiff in the law. Like this person is actually not the barometer. And so you can kind of provide a secondary source to say, and the New York Times agrees with me. So here you go. And um, that was that's actually literally I just gave you a real life example of what I did um before with a microaggression. And do people get defensive? I would think that they'd want to like justify and say, Oh no, no, no, I'm not really a racist. I would have said that about anybody, you know.

[33:04] Naila McKenzie Ross: Oh, totally, totally. Yes, yes, the defensiveness comes in right away, which is why which is why I think the intent part is really nice in terms of kind of diffusing that a bit to say, I know you intended it to be a compliment. And that's okay, but here's why it's not a compliment specifically for my community. Um, and so you give that person grace, which kind of gives them the space to not have to defend, and this worked well, but also I have to say it worked well with a person that I have a trusting and open and respectful relationship with. Um, so there was good intent assumed on both sides. Like I knew their intent was good, and they knew my intent in sharing this information was also good, and I think that also is critical to having like a good interaction around being able to tackle microaggressions.

[33:56] Naila McKenzie Ross: Um, more often than not, what we talk about is bystander intervention. Folks kind of um who may observe a microaggression stepping in with the permission of the person who was the target and addressing it, oftentimes that can be very helpful because it takes the onus off of the target of the microaggression to be able to breathe, go and recover somewhere because they probably heard it for the umpteenth time, and then someone who maybe isn't of that lived experience saying, Hey, I learned about this a while ago, and sometimes that information can be received in a way that feels easier for the person who is a source coming from someone who may have locked that same experience, and the defensiveness sort of melts away, ideally um under those circumstances, but yeah, they're they're tough.

[34:52] Naila McKenzie Ross: And it's I mean, at the end of the day, you want this person to just really understand and digest what has just taken place, right? And hopefully that as they become more aware, their behavior will change and their exact will change, right? I've heard that same person point it out to others, so that's actually an example of bystander intervention. I no longer now have to do it because I've created a space and a line of communication with folks where I've shared this information and knowledge and now they're sharing it with other folks. So um yeah it's that ideally is how it sort of grows and blossoms into like creating culture because then everyone has that piece of knowledge and then it can start to spread out even within across your circle um and so other folks can benefit from that from that one intervention that you didn't even realize you know are benefiting from it.

[35:52] Jan Svendsen: Well your law degree is one thing but your um psychologist and sociologist and anthropologist and all that um information you know sort of know-how is so amazing.

[36:06] Naila McKenzie Ross: I know thank you. These conversations that you have are having and um you call this like you also have a term for like brave space where people can come and have a conversation in a in a safe space right and is that a conversation like employees can come to you or they go to each other or how does that is that sort of set up or is it something that happens organically and instinctually?

[36:08] Naila McKenzie Ross: Yeah so we like to set up um and it's interesting there's debate around calling them safe spaces or brave spaces um and and so I'll address that first like safe space there there are folks and I I'm t I tend to agree with this assessment who would say you can't really ever guarantee a space is totally safe, meaning that um you don't know what someone's going to say in a space, right?

[37:05] Naila McKenzie Ross: So um, so in many ways we're tending away from that term into brave space, which is that you can agree at the beginning of these conversations that folks can show up with honesty and empathy and humility, and that if harm does occur, that there's a way to address it and there's a way to be respectful about it.

[37:26] Naila McKenzie Ross: Um, and so that's sort of what a brave space means that we are going to assume good intent, but we're also going to equally understand that our impact might land in a way that's harmful, and we're going to be respectful of that dynamic that could happen in a space.

[37:41] Jan Svendsen: So thank you for explaining that.

[37:43] Naila McKenzie Ross: I just I feel like I learned something really important now. Thank you.

[37:47] Jan Svendsen: You're welcome.

[37:48] Naila McKenzie Ross: Yay! That was completely interchangeable to say sit safe and brave space. But you know what? I totally understand what you're saying. And yeah, that's amazing.

[37:56] Jan Svendsen: Okay, thank you.

[37:57] Naila McKenzie Ross: Thanks. Yeah, it's and uh the language honestly around this work is always changing every day. Uh honestly, like literally. And it's nice, that's why it's nice that I have a community of EDI practitioners that I'm close with, and we'll be like, no, we're not saying that anymore. We're not saying people of color anymore, we're saying people of culture. Did you read the article by Rust the Medicine? You know, so it's it's really it's lovely to be that actually cultivates a practice of always being humble, like having humility and curiosity in this space because everyone is going to get it wrong, and it's really I don't even like to say you're gonna get it wrong. I mean, there are clearly things that you we should not be saying anymore, and we know, right?

[38:34] Jan Svendsen: Right.

[38:35] Naila McKenzie Ross: But there's also a space in which, like, we're just trying to kind of refine and get things a little, you know, give voice to folks who didn't necessarily have the space to define things before and give them the respect of, oh, that's really interesting. So, okay, so y'all want to refer to yourselves as people of culture now. Great. Why? I'm curious. Not, oh my gosh, I can't keep track of all the different terms that black people want to call themselves. What's going on?

[39:02] Jan Svendsen: Right.

[39:02] Naila McKenzie Ross: So I think it's that difference between those two approaches to this work is so important for I think folks who want to cultivate a growth mindset and really continue to be anti-racist. So much of it is about curiosity and humility, as opposed to like I read white fragility and now I'm anti-racist. Like the everyday practice of it really is how do I listen to the people who are different from me in my life and really give really hear them and respect them. So anyway, tangent, going back to your original question, which was how do we set up these conversations?

[39:37] Naila McKenzie Ross: Many of these conversations came out of um the murder of George Floyd in uh 2020. And what the Walt Disney Company did, which I think was so wonderful, um, was essentially set the stage to say you can talk about what is happening in your lives and in this world, and it's okay to bring that context into the workplace because part of when we say we want you to bring your authentic self, we'd be totally disingenuous if we said, but don't talk about the fact that you, as black and brown people, feel like when you walk to work, you might be shot, and then you can show up and smile and just carry on as if nothing has happened, and sort of broke down that fourth wall of disbelief of we come into the office and we just work.

No, no, no. You're bringing all that social context into the space with you, and not just black and brown people, whether it's folks of Jewish descent, whether it's folks who are Asian American, like you're bringing the context of what's going on with your community into the space. So let's talk about it.

[40:46] Naila McKenzie Ross: And so we set that space up. We have community agreements, sort of similar to what I what I kind of went through with what is a brave space. How are we going to speak in this space? Um, we have facilitators like myself, folks from HR. Um, sometimes we actually um bring in psychologists because as you uh intimated so much of this work steps into that territory, uh, which I think you know folks need to acknowledge more. Um it's not just a marketing, like EDI is not about marketing and HR, like we are dealing with the whole human here, right? And everything we bring into the space, and so yes, psychology is a big piece of that. Um, so sometimes we'll have conversations that if they feel particularly um heavy and that we need that level of expertise, we'll either have someone actually moderate the conversation in an affinity space, or we'll make sure that folks have the benefit of being able to touch base with mental health providers after the conversation.

But essentially, it's sometimes we have some guiding questions, depending on if there's a situation that has occurred. Um but for the most part, we ask employees to just show up and share if they feel compelled to what is going on in their hearts and minds, and how are they showing up or coping in a space? Um, and just that cultural shift is seismic because it says we really mean the whole you comes to work.

[42:22] Jan Svendsen: I like that you comes to work.

[42:24] Naila McKenzie Ross: Yeah.

[42:25] Jan Svendsen: Yeah. And and that's an important concept for everyone, everywhere.

[42:31] Naila McKenzie Ross: Yeah, 100%. It's hard to live it too. It's so easy to switch right back into we're going through the meeting, dot dot dot, and then can we please acknowledge what just happened in the subway? And sometimes even I in the meeting am like, oh, can we just not talk? I I'm just getting through like a place where I'm coping. I don't want to talk about that, but there is something about acknowledging the reality of human experience that is so critical to creating an inclusive culture. So it's yeah, it's really fascinating because our corporate structure in business doesn't allow for that really, but in order for us to do this work, we kind of have to break down some of those boxes.

[43:19] Jan Svendsen: Right.

[43:19] Naila McKenzie Ross: And so many people have actually used the corporate structure of just like focusing on work to then not focus on the bad thing that just happened in the subway, right?

[43:31] Jan Svendsen: That's right.

[43:32] Naila McKenzie Ross: You redirect so that you don't have to feel that hurt.

[43:36] Jan Svendsen: Yes.

[43:36] Naila McKenzie Ross: And and so it is changing our whole sort of gestalt and and psychology.

[43:42] Jan Svendsen: That's right. Which is why I think you'd be a great psychologist too. I think it's another degree you should be getting.

[43:48] Naila McKenzie Ross: I don't have to read any even more fantasy books to escape. But yes, it's definitely definitely hard, I think, of the skill set. Tell me how you work together with organizations like Broadway Advocacy Coalition and Black Theater United and Black Theater Coalition.

[44:06] Naila McKenzie Ross: Yeah, I mean, all just really incredible organizations. And I I have friends in each organization. I'm on the board as you mentioned earlier, a Black Theater Coalition and Broadway Advocacy Coalition. So in terms of Black City United, you know, we're very much a part of the New Deal. And I mean, that's just talk about a monumental sort of structural um progress, something like that has never existed before, to have it sort of codified in an agreement like that is is just something that I know will go down in the history books. So that's really exciting to be part of that conversation, and they're doing really great work there.

[45:01] Naila McKenzie Ross: Black Theater Coalition, I mean that organization is so incredible. The people behind that organization, T. Oliver Reed, Warren Adams, Reggie Van Lee, um are just talk about relentless and committed. And I mean, and literally the tangible results of what they are done to change representation in the American theater, what in what feels like overnight. There's I believe, and I I don't want to misquote numbers at this point, but 40 or 50 different fellowships established in different GM offices and producer offices like ours. And I literally see the the room changed as a result of the fellowship. So Disney, we have two fellowships that we've established through working with Black Theater Coalition.

Um is a press marketing and sales fellowship, and the other is in our uh with with our producing team, and both fellows, um Lori uh and Tyra are fantastic, and like I said, are in all these meetings with me. And so I'm literally seeing the representation change before my eyes, in which, you know, I was many times in my career, I've been the the first and the only, um which is changing and is great and it needs to change. Um, and so it's it's lovely for me to be part of that change and just see how organizations like BTC are literally changing it the theater before our very eyes. Um there was such an exciting, like I we had a really exciting moment after the MJ musical opening, and which it just kind of so happened that there were a lot of Black Theater Coalition fellows and folks like myself who are on the board, kind of gathered um afterwards, and it I had never been in a space post-show like that that was so filled with black and brown folks and uh in Broadway.

And I mean, 10 years ago, I would never would have had an experience like that, and it was really, really beautiful and affirming. Um, and so yeah, the the work they're doing is is fantastic, and we're hoping to just establish and keep these fellowships going on an annual basis. Um, fingers crossed, and so I can see you know, these fellows will then go into the industry and then open doors for others, and it's just gonna be again that those seeds are planted in those trees. It's all about the pipeline, and there are so many different fellowship programs with the organizations that you just mentioned, and also the Miranda family supports you know, a lot of um scholarships and fellowships and for people of color. So I think that's that's the key.

[47:47] Jan Svendsen: Uh before we we you know segue off to some other things. Yes, now this is a group that you created at Disney Theatrical Productions, and it's a resource group for everyone, right? Of any any kind of job, any kind of position.

[48:07] Naila McKenzie Ross: Um, and what is the goal of of this group and what does it do?

[48:13] Naila McKenzie Ross: Yeah, so ensemble was our very first um business employee resource group, which is the goal of of what we call a berg, it's like a horrible acronym. Goal of a berg is to um provide an affinity space, a networking space, uh, and actually a safe space uh for uh employees of different dimensions of diversity. And it started out with me being at Disney Theatrical Group and looking around and sort of seeing, you know, a few black folks in over here and over there, and being like, we need to know each other. We need to know each other. There was a company manager and Kendra Moore, who's um one of my good friends, who we hadn't spoken to each other because our paths just hadn't crossed at that point from a work standpoint, but I know we needed to, and one day she just came into my office and we just started talking and we were like, we need to do this more often.

And I said, you know what? Let's start an employee resource group. We need one. We have so many different dimensions of identity represented actually already at this point when I when I first started at DTG, whether it's LGBTQIA Plus, um black folks, API folks.

[49:26] Naila McKenzie Ross: So I was like, let's create spaces where we can gather based on our affinity. And particularly in the black community, you know, that's something that with so few of us in these spaces, that can be a really safe space for us to kind of just talk about the experience of being first and only and to sort of just re-energize to go out into spaces that are primarily white. And so it started out with a few committees. So I started out as the I guess the president and the chair and created sort of the governance structure and all of that, and now we've expanded to membership is about 120 employees, and we have several committees. We have a black and African American committee, a Hispanic Latine community, a parents committee, a women's committee, a disability committee, an AAPI committee, and an LGBTQIA plus committee, and with our new sort of emerging professionals, they started a committee specifically for emerging professionals.

And it's all under this umbrella of employee resource group, which they meet on a monthly basis. I'm now the executive sponsor. I promoted myself. So we have presidents now who actually co-chair who oversee the day-to-day of the group. But yeah, it's blossomed into this beautiful employee-based network that actually also works with my inclusion strategy team to create programming that resonates with the different communities. So we worked really closely with Ensemble last year in creating some Black History Month celebratory moments that really didn't come from the top-down, like sort of a press or marketing initiative, but came from what I call like the bottom up, like the grassroots employees saying this is how we want to be seen and heard. How do we make that a reality?

[51:23] Jan Svendsen: Your LinkedIn bio says, quote, change maker, theater lover, lawyer, mother. And I know you've just mentioned your kids and the books you're reading. And I wondered, how do your kids inform your work in diversity and equity and inclusion and vice versa?

[51:43] Naila McKenzie Ross: It's really something I think kind of raising kids in this world right now. I mean, on the one hand, it's so fascinating. Like my kids talk about kombucha and like, you know, like I don't know. I'm just like, what? I didn't even know what kombucha and quinoa were back in the day. Like I'm just like, this is I feel like I'm just winning as a parent when they say those things. By the way, just a little segue first. Did you know? I just read this that elementary school kids, the most popular lunch for elementary school kids now is sushi. Yes. Yes, I love that so much. That is amazing. So I feel like you know what, we're succeeding as a culture if that's the case. But like in all seriousness, they inform my work because they constantly remind me of through that dreamer part of the work, like why the work is important.

You know, at the end of the day, my kids are still however they end up wanting to identify in their future, they are seen by the world as two black children who are growing up in this country, and there are definitely endless opportunities for them to succeed, but there's also an equal amount of barriers in their way, and so I really do see my job as doing my part to make their path easier, and so much of like my North Star is thinking about them and other folks like them, right? Who are going to be coming behind me, and what is the space I want to leave for them to enter into. And so they do inform me in that way, and they help me keep a sense of humor about things for sure, which is you know, the reset of like coming home and like you know, one of my daughters, so I have a daughter who is two, and my son Kai is seven, and one of her favorite things to do right now is to like streak through the hallway.

Like nothing will resent you more than like a little baby running through the hallway, and you're like, um, so they just keep me grounded in that sense. Now Kai is really interesting because someone told me once that you have the children you need, not the children you wanted necessarily, and Kai very early on identified as a girl, and currently identifies with he pronouns, but very early on identified as a girl and has always gravitated towards things that are like within the binary, more feminine, dresses, and it was really interesting for me doing this work because I had an area of growth that I as a parent had to really lean into, which was how am I navigating these feelings of my child wanting to wear this dress to this event?

Like we had a friend's like a christening event, and in a space that I didn't know how it was going to be received, and how am I gonna prepare my child for what might be said? How am I preparing myself for what might be said? And Kai has really challenged me to grow in the space when it comes to gender expansiveness and thinking about what that looks like and how I can show up as a parent, but also as an advocate in my own work. And really like how can I create a space in which someone like Kai feels as free as possible to be what Kai is going to be, and Kai's taught me as a parent, really like those are the fundamental values of VDI, right? Like, how can we create a space of freedom for people?

And you know, some days I think I do better than others, but I think that we all have those spots that we feel that discomfort around. That was what it was for me, and we were able to, as my husband and I like leaned into resources like the Ackerman Institute, which is amazing. They have a gender family project, like where you know where your shortcomings are, like lean in to support. So the wonderful support system for families of gender-expansive kids, and folks who were kind of struggling with the same conversations around this, creating a space for kids who identify as trans and binary, so that my child could have a space of kids that he could show up in a dress and they'd be like, cool, right?

And those spaces were led by folks who identify as trans and non-binary who were teens and young adults, so they could also see like this is what it looks like when you are older and like see themselves potentially reflected in the future. So yeah, they have definitely taught me a lot.

[57:04] Jan Svendsen: Thank you for sharing that story. That's beautiful. As a last word, can you give me and our listeners some advice on being a change maker in today's world?

[57:14] Naila McKenzie Ross: So, one of my favorite podcasts actually that I listen to is I think I mentioned Brene Brown. I may or may not have mentioned Brene Brown earlier, but Brene Brown's podcast comes up in every podcast, by the way. I mean, I know I feel like so cliché saying that, but it's really true. Renee Brown's podcast and her guests are just fire, like there's always she just knows who to bring on, and they're always wonderful, and I always end up following or purchasing something on Audible after people on. But she had someone on recently, and the quote has just stuck with me, and literally I find a moment to think about it every day. And it was James Clear who wrote the book Atomic Habits, and she just had him on, I think maybe a few weeks ago.

And the quote was you do not rise to the level of your goals, you fall to the level of your systems, and probably the best quote I've heard about this work in the last year or so, because I think it goes so much to where we're at right now as an industry. I think we're all aligned for the most part on our goals. I think you know, there's those who maybe will never get to that space and you know, go on that journey, but I think the rest of us, we know what our goals are, we're pretty much aligned on our goals. But what we're not necessarily clear on is the systems that either need to be built, rebuilt, dismantled, rethought, challenged to get there. And your intentions can be incredible and amazing.

Your values can be like airtight, but I think ultimately those microsystems that we talked about, you will rise and fall by those microsystems. So when I talk about microsystems, it's sort of like, how do you hire? How do you recruit? How do you promote? How do you lead a meeting? Like just all those little systems that cumulatively create the bigger system. What's going on in those little moments when you're really, really pressed for time, what kind of decisions are you making that are undermining your values? I think you can end up creating a system of exclusion with those microsystems that tells a completely different story unintentionally than the values that you set out to accomplish. So I feel like it's such a great North Star quote.

And I would encourage anyone who is in this space. And PS, everyone in this space should be a change maker. Everyone, everyone has that responsibility. And so I think everyone should be thinking about that quote and how you're living up to it, or maybe not.

[1:00:05] Jan Svendsen: Thank you. That's a perfect way to end this podcast. And you are an amazing change maker, and I think you have now inspired hopefully all me at for sure and our listeners to be better change makers and more active. Thank you so much for being here today.

[1:00:21] Naila McKenzie Ross: Thank you. You're too kind, and I really I had so much fun chatting with you. So anytime I'll come back anytime if you want me to.

[1:00:28] Jan Svendsen: Okay, I want you back.

[1:00:29] Naila McKenzie Ross: Thanks so much, Jan.

[1:00:31] Jan Svendsen: All right, I'll come back just because you insisted. Part two coming soon.

[1:00:38] Jan Svendsen: Thanks for listening to this episode of the Broadway Gives Back Podcast. Broadway Gives Back is part of the Broadway Podcast Network. Special thanks to my producing partner, writer, editor, and friend Jim Lochner. And thank you to everyone at BPN, including Dori Berinstein, Alan Seales, and Kimberlee Garris. I'd also like to thank Julian Hills from the Bulldog Agency and Eric Becker from Broderick Street Music. If you like what you hear, don't forget to subscribe and rate this podcast wherever you stream your podcasts. You can also follow Broadway Gives Back on Facebook and Instagram at Broadway Gives Back Podcast and on Twitter at Broadway Gives. To learn more, visit BPN.fm slash Broadway Gives Back. Thanks so much.