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[0:07] Ben Rimalower: As Patty's Reno Sweetie used to say. The world has gone a little at a day, so let's look at Broadway in a broader way. With rods like Liza, vet and stretch. We're today through Maryland May Switch a couple. Cast offs. We're gonna give it to you straight a couple. Cast offs. Whose favorite thing to do is to appreciate Let's name that belt and feel the thrill of another housing round of Dolly concert kill at Broadway Tiva Toss.

[0:57] Ben Rimalower: With Benjamin, who do you think you are? Welcome to the Cast Offs Podcast on Broadway Podcast Network. I am Ben Rimalower, and I'm here with my lovely co-host, Daniel Nolen.

[1:11] Daniel Nolen: Hey y'all. It is a beautiful, beautiful uh spring almost summer day here in New York City.

[1:18] Ben Rimalower: It's hot, hot, hot.

[1:20] Daniel Nolen: I wouldn't know. I have not left my apartment.

[1:23] Ben Rimalower: Well, I finally cranked on the AC, but it's still like, it just doesn't quite go go go like it used to. So my apartment's still a little too warm for my taste. You know how cold I want it.

[1:33] Daniel Nolen: I do know. No one could ever be cold enough for you.

[1:37] Ben Rimalower: Very cold girl. Uh yeah. We have a very warm girl here with us today. We are joined by the fabulous star of stage, screen, radio, writing, and certainly other mediums that I am just not hip enough to even be aware of. Uh, Mr. John Hill, thank you for joining us.

[1:57] John Hill: Yeah. Thank you for having me. I was like, what's another medium?

[2:00] Ben Rimalower: Stage, film, TV, OmniFans.

[2:03] John Hill: Medium.

[2:03] Ben Rimalower: He looks more like a large to me.

[2:06] John Hill: Hey, baby tea, crop top season. I'm sure Daniel's got something cropped below the camera line.

[2:12] Daniel Nolen: Honey, I just bought a new crop top at the Fire Island Tola shop, our favorite uh store. And I had to go back and get a medium because the small was too small.

[2:23] John Hill: Oh, is that possible?

[2:24] Daniel Nolen: Only on Fire Island.

[2:25] Ben Rimalower: Well, Daniel is freakishly tall. Like the don't let the thinness fool you.

[2:29] Daniel Nolen: I'm very thin, but I still am very broad.

[2:31] Ben Rimalower: And do you identify as a twink?

[2:34] John Hill: Uh I identify what's whatever the past the past tense, the twink.

[2:38] Daniel Nolen: Twank.

[2:39] John Hill: Yeah. I mean, I'm a little- I think I've aged out of twink, but I mean I was back in the day.

[2:44] Ben Rimalower: Oh my god, rookie mistake. I have to put my thing on.

[2:46] John Hill: I know. It's like you've never done this before.

[2:50] Ben Rimalower: I um really have a struggle to be okay with people Daniel's age talking about how they've aged out of anything.

[2:59] Daniel Nolen: Well learning and learning.

[3:01] Ben Rimalower: Well, in our youth obsessed culture, it's like, I feel like every you know, 10 years or whatever, it just becomes uh the age of youthfulness becomes younger and younger. Like I feel like at this point, when you're above 26, it's like your expiration date is approaching.

[3:18] John Hill: Well, you know what, Daniel, I don't feel that way.

[3:20] Daniel Nolen: Mine either, but I have prepared for this episode.

[3:25] Ben Rimalower: Not on the assumption of that. We are going to be doing a fantasy football style draft of the all-time top twink roles in musical theater.

[3:36] John Hill: The tank bottom roles.

[3:38] Ben Rimalower: The top bottom roles.

[3:40] John Hill: It's America's top bottom. Um, it's really fitting that we are joined by John because long before he became the silver fox uh that we are here to record with today. He was, in fact, a Broadway twink. I had the pleasure of seeing John when he was in the original cast of Hairspray.

[3:59] John Hill: Can I stop you right there? This is inaccurate.

[4:00] Ben Rimalower: Yes, check his ass.

[4:05] John Hill: What is inaccurate?

[4:06] Ben Rimalower: I feel I was never of the twink persuasion. In fact, if you really want to go back to Hairspray, I would like the very bad link. She put out their seats. The day I was cast. I also don't have I never had twink energy. I always had I had faggot energy, but I never had twink energy.

[4:22] Ben Rimalower: Listen, I think that to like to like the general population of adults, anyone under 30 or 35 with good skin who's a homo and like remotely like effable to anyone is a twink.

[4:35] John Hill: My bones have never been thin enough to be a twink. I've always been large.

[4:40] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[4:42] John Hill: My stature has always just been too big to be a twink. I wanted to be one, I wanted to be thin.

[4:47] Ben Rimalower: Well, I saw you as Link Larkin in Hairspray on Broadway. And if that's not a twink role in musical theater, I don't know what it is.

[4:55] John Hill: Yeah. Well, I think we have different interpretations. So this will be fun to go through this role. I think we're gonna have a lot of battles.

[5:00] Ben Rimalower: I can see that you guys are gonna fight me when I'm like you're gonna be a big thing.

[5:03] John Hill: So you feeling cute is a twink.

[5:05] Ben Rimalower: Exactly.

[5:06] John Hill: Tevya is a twink. Rosie O'Donnell in Bidler was a twink role.

[5:10] Ben Rimalower: She made it a twink roll.

[5:11] John Hill: That's right. Well, you think any gay guy, you think any cute guy is a young cute guy is a twink?

[5:17] Ben Rimalower: No, not necessarily. Like there were characters that I wouldn't uh include in that. But I think maybe we can get into the nuances role by role.

[5:26] John Hill: And when you guys are like, you know, we can we'll debate. Maybe there'll be some that it'll be a two to one in different directions, you know.

[5:33] Ben Rimalower: A lot of litigation to be had.

[5:35] John Hill: Yes, you know, I love to live for litigation. Um uh so John, as our guest, you'll go first, and then we'll do a snake drafts uh going down.

[5:46] Ben Rimalower: So uh wait, Daniel Snake draft? Is that a sports term?

[5:50] Daniel Nolen: It is.

[5:50] Ben Rimalower: I'm so uh athletic right now.

[5:52] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, um I'm an athletic supporter. Daniel, what remind me? Do we start with number five or number one?

[6:00] John Hill: Uh number one, right?

[6:03] Daniel Nolen: Oh, because this is like I don't this is this is like the divas. Like we gotta save like the Yeah, I guess I guess we started with number one. Yeah, that makes more sense because otherwise it's too easy to sneak attack.

[6:14] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Um, so John, number one with zero competition from us. What is the uh number one twink role in musical theater?

[6:25] John Hill: Wait, just fresh in my memory on what a snake is. Okay, so we're starting. I'm gonna give you I have five things to nominate, basically.

[6:32] John Hill: Right. So your first one you get because we haven't gone yet. So I can get argued out of the other ones I have to nominate.

[6:40] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, or even just like I mean, yeah.

[6:42] John Hill: Well, you don't basically argue it out, but like someone else might take it from you.

[6:47] Ben Rimalower: Like that's fine. If but people take everything from me, as long as people have heard me on record as being the one who did it first, that's fine.

[6:52] John Hill: It's just like they won't they won't hear you first except for on this round. Because you're gonna edit it out.

[6:57] Ben Rimalower: Okay.

[6:59] John Hill: No, I told you we don't edit. We don't edit.

[7:01] Ben Rimalower: That's why some of our episodes are long.

[7:03] John Hill: Okay, uh gosh. So we're all so good. Uh I'm sure. I'm sure I'll start with um Jack from Into the Woods.

[7:10] Ben Rimalower: Ah, yes. Wonderful, wonderful.

[7:12] John Hill: It should always be a Twink.

[7:14] Ben Rimalower: No. See, I really don't agree because, and I obviously it was kind of like a few. But you're just being contrarian.

[7:19] John Hill: That's the same thing.

[7:19] Ben Rimalower: No, I'm not. I think with the capital.

[7:22] John Hill: Absolutely not. The reason I don't include Jack, even though it's clearly been played by many twinks, including in the original production, is because I think the best Jacks are when he's like a prepubescent little boy like Oliver.

[7:35] Ben Rimalower: That is how here's where we get into it.

[7:38] John Hill: Yeah. I'm going by the soul of the character. I'm not going by like traditional casting. Like it at its core, Jack is someone who comes out and says, okay, I want a giant to dominate me, and I just want to be where you are.

[7:50] Ben Rimalower: No. Fuck my cow. I'm small. Take me, I'm your sub.

[7:54] John Hill: And then does not want the giant to dominate him. He wants to be pressed to the giant's breast.

[8:00] Ben Rimalower: Played by Glenn Close in Shakespeare in the Park. But go ahead.

[8:02] John Hill: Well, I like I like Jack as a twink just because I want Giants in the Sky to be sung as a tenor. You know, I want to hear that belt note as a tenor.

[8:09] Ben Rimalower: I don't want it to be like, go to giants in those songs.

[8:13] John Hill: I do.

[8:13] Ben Rimalower: I don't want that. Or like one of those actory guys who can just kind of speak, sing it, and act like they, you know, were just like a good actor.

[8:20] John Hill: I want to hear that screlted.

[8:22] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[8:24] John Hill: I need it, I need it screlted. I need a money note at the end.

[8:29] Ben Rimalower: Um, all right. Well, uh, it looks like there's a lot of debate about Jack. So uh Daniel, what is your first?

[8:33] Daniel Nolen: My first uh number one twink role of all time would be Fiero and Wicked.

[8:43] John Hill: Oh, that's good.

[8:45] Daniel Nolen: See, and I don't like Fiero to be Twink. I want Fiero to be like a fucking like hot man.

[8:49] John Hill: Well, and listen, I mean Nor Leo Butts played him originally, and he is not a Twink, but more so I the I think three times I've seen Wicked, they've all been played Twinkley.

[9:00] John Hill: It is always it always. And now it's always cast Twinkly.

[9:03] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, yeah. So yeah, Fiero is the number one twink roll in my IMHO.

[9:08] John Hill: I hate that character. He has the worst songs. I hate that whole storyline. I would be so much more into Wicked if you just removed Fiero from the storyline.

[9:17] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, I mean, well, it's confusing also because then there's Bach, who is also kind of a twink roll.

[9:23] John Hill: Very much so, yes.

[9:24] Daniel Nolen: Well, with that, then what is your uh I'm so happy that I have no competition. My first choice is gonna be my number one. It's Navian in the heights.

[9:35] John Hill: Oh, wonderful.

[9:37] Daniel Nolen: And what's that, John?

[9:38] John Hill: Never seen it.

[9:39] Daniel Nolen: Oh, you should watch the movie. It's very good.

[9:41] John Hill: Oh, I guess I saw the movie.

[9:43] Daniel Nolen: Which one is that?

[9:44] John Hill: It's the lead. It's um Anthony Ramos.

[9:47] John Hill: Who's actually Twinkier than Lynn Manuel Miranda ever was?

[9:51] Daniel Nolen: That's true. Um, and uh I chose that for the best twink role because it I best roll is not the category, but because it is the best role, I chose it for my number one twink role because he's the lead character, he's the narrator, everything is from his perspective. You know, if you were like a young actor who'd been making his way up a community theater like um uh ladder, and you know, playing these like featured roles, maybe jacking into the woods when you were whatever age we all agreed or disagree is the right age, you could still be cast. But then let's say you're like 17, 18, 19, and you do it in the heights at that theater, and that is your fucking show. You know, that's Alpha Butt, that's Evita.

[10:39] John Hill: I mean, no contest.

[10:41] Ben Rimalower: But wait, is your name uh have you named yourself Troll in this broadcast?

[10:45] Daniel Nolen: I have. Thank you for sharing that with the audience.

[10:47] John Hill: It was meant to be an inside joke with the two of you.

[10:50] Ben Rimalower: Because I feel that I uh was never a twink, but if I ever had any chance of being one, it is long behind me.

[10:57] John Hill: Wait, so you were just like under the bridge, like that twinks were crossing over like the troll, just like sending them riddle riddles, hoping to pull them down into your troll layer.

[11:06] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, the three Billy Twinks gruff.

[11:08] John Hill: That's that's what I am now.

[11:11] Ben Rimalower: The three Billy Magnussons gruff.

[11:15] John Hill: Oh, I saw him running the other day in LA.

[11:18] Ben Rimalower: I'm so jealous.

[11:19] John Hill: I would like a slow-mo tape of that.

[11:21] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, let me tell you something. Those titties bounce. And that is my favorite fetish. I love it.

[11:25] John Hill: I hope he was wearing those shorts that are like slit up the sides and they just like little curtains blow in the wind.

[11:31] Ben Rimalower: Yes, honey. The answer, my friend is blown in the wind.

[11:34] John Hill: Anyway, troll. No, so now I the troll goes next with my number two choice. And um, Daniel, I apologize in advance. I don't think you're gonna be happy that I have got this. Um, but my number two is Seymour in Little Shop of Horrors.

[11:49] Daniel Nolen: Oh, long down on my list.

[11:51] John Hill: I'm shocked.

[11:52] Daniel Nolen: Um, I understand that could be cast as a middle-aged Jewish man in certain productions, like the original. And Rick Moranis was like on the second half of his 30s when he played the part. But I do prefer it with Jonathan Groff, freshly uh exfoliated center stage.

[12:10] John Hill: Well, here's the thing about about Seymour. And I say this as someone who played Seymour very twinkly, but I prefer it when Seymour is like, is like uh a down and out, like straight man. Like I love it, like I love Rick Moranis. Like, I don't like it when Seymour's played too gaily. You know?

[12:31] Daniel Nolen: I like him played just gaily enough.

[12:34] John Hill: I like it when it's still a like you can you can believe that he's like going to the back of the flower shop and like jerking off to Audrey, you know, in his own time. Like when it's played too twinkly, I'm like, oh, he just wants to rescue her because he's like, you know, a kind person. But I I actually want there to be a little bit of sexual tension. I I don't want to say the other role that I would say this about, but Seymour is one of two because the other one is also on the list. Um, but I think it's a role in musical theater that even though the character is heterosexual ostensibly, as far as the plot is concerned, the show is so campy and is so fantastical that it actually doesn't matter. It would not bother me at all. You could have the most mincing crisp pot as Seymour, and I would be like, Yes, honey, feed that plant. Feed that plant.

[13:24] Ben Rimalower: Um well, and and also regardless of our uh opinions, like this is this is the the great twink roles um of musical theater, regardless of our opinions. So that has been historically a very twinkle.

[13:39] John Hill: Thank you for honoring our history.

[13:41] Ben Rimalower: Um it is your turn, Daniel.

[13:42] Daniel Nolen: Okay, speaking of our history, um, the next on my list, number two, is uh Cornelius Hackle from Hello Dolly. Um again, another one that I think Cornelius in the in the show, he's like 32 or 34, so he's actually a little bit older than uh prime twink age. Um, and I think Gavin Creel, you know, was was uh very age appropriate. But again, all the other times I've seen that role, especially on tour with Carol Lee and with uh whoever I guess it was maybe with Bernadette, uh just played by the Twinkiest of Twink, like fresh out of Amda, barely of drinking age, Cornelius Hackle.

[14:26] John Hill: So I mean, Gavin also I think is like the best kind of like gay twink, even though he's like, I think he's almost my age, at least in his 40s. But like he, you know, I mean, it's the reason I loved him so much in Hello Dolly, and I would love him so much if he did Little Shop, but I did not like him. I'm sorry to be honest, um, in Into the Woods or in She Loves Me, you know. And um I in but in Hello Dolly, I the gayness makes it uh all the better. It's fucking Hello Dolly.

[14:56] Daniel Nolen: Totally, totally. And and you also want to believe him as someone who's like truly maybe never kissed a girl, you know.

[15:04] John Hill: Yes, that is very plausible. All right. It's it sounds great. I I support both of these. I have nothing. Wait, you look a little judgy, you look a little judgy.

[15:14] Daniel Nolen: No, I'm panicking because I think I I approach this again, like from more of a spiritually twink uh perspective, which is a record. I'll just say my next one. It's good to get all the perspective, spiritual and otherwise.

[15:24] John Hill: Okay. Uh, because I put down Ada'Annie from Oklahoma.

[15:26] Daniel Nolen: That's a tough one.

[15:27] John Hill: Oh, for Christ's sakes. Well, I mean, she's up here like somebody fuck me. Like, she's basically like a girl like 2003 at Posh. Like, she's like a twink who's like, you guys, I'll do anything for it. Um, okay, so I think this is actually uh infuriating, but also uh uh enchanting because um I mean certainly I have always dreamed of like why are we gendering? Anyone could be a twink. I mean, this is spiritual um but twinks are pretty gendered, I I feel I know, but like that I'll drink my LaCroix. Think of your most you are forever a twink. Think of your most traditional twinks, they would all be great Ado Ang. Peter Pan, again, a woman.

[16:10] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, I thought about Peter Pan. Um, it's I mean I mean, you know, some little twink at an open mic night singing I can't say no. I can I have seen it, I'm sure.

[16:21] John Hill: Okay, I'll do another one. Oh, cheetah Rivera.

[16:25] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[16:27] John Hill: She's such a twink. She's a tenor.

[16:30] Daniel Nolen: Yeah. Uh it's funny, you know. I also where I'm getting hung up is don't forget that my roommate and best friend for many years was Tyler Maynard, who is the quintessential twink of that moment. And I've seen him do Ellen Green in uh Little Shop. I've seen these things, and so to me, Ellen Green is the twink role in that in that show.

[16:48] John Hill: Interesting. Um but also like when I see Edo Annie, I always think Tyler. Um, okay, well, then I'll throw something else. I just want to say shout out to Tyler Maynard, one of the great musical theater talents of our era.

[16:54] Daniel Nolen: Of our era.

[17:00] John Hill: Is overdue for like a defining Broadway triumph to put him rightfully in line with Kristen, Adina, and Audre.

[17:08] Daniel Nolen: Right, yes.

[17:09] John Hill: I'm serious. And like it is time. Like, think about his uh contemporaries, not just myself and you, but like Shoshana and Leslie Kritzer. These are people from CCM same class. Like who I think if you got us all together and said who's the most talented, most hilarious bag you know, yeah.

[17:26] Daniel Nolen: It's it's Tyler. Like literally the most talented.

[17:29] John Hill: Hands down. It's time. It's time. But so um, okay. Well, can I leave Edo Annie up there? Or should I think it's like a little bit?

[17:36] Daniel Nolen: Leave it up there. Go with your gut.

[17:38] John Hill: I want us to honor your inspiration. And you should have Taylor, you should have Tyler on the show.

[17:43] Daniel Nolen: We will. That's a great idea.

[17:45] John Hill: Yeah, you should. Okay, so I'll I'll say Ado Annie. Let me have my gimme. Um, and then uh, do you want me to say another one? Or do you want to do that?

[17:52] Daniel Nolen: Wait, I think you do, yeah, you go next again, right?

[17:55] John Hill: Yeah, yeah. That's the snake, John.

[17:57] Daniel Nolen: Oh, the snake. Okay, well, the next one I was gonna say again, something from my resume uh early on in my career. Um, not that I played this role, but I witnessed several people playing this role who were really, really talented. Um, several who went on to, I think became twinks in their own right. But one of the great roles for a twink in musical theater to meet is Tam and Miss Saigon.

[18:19] John Hill: Wow. A silent character. That character has a lot of like emotional body work to do. Twinks, twinks just should be seen and not heard. Also, a lot of twinks consider themselves uh like important enough to be like to sacrifice people's lives for, you know what I mean? Like, I think it's like they think their lives are so dramatic, it's life or death. I mean, certainly Leia Salonga knows what you're talking about.

[18:51] Daniel Nolen: Um, wait, did any of the boys you saw as Tam, you worked with as Tam? I should add now, John was in the national tour of Miss Saigon as Chris, uh, which is by the way, one of my twink roles. I'm sure you guys will disagree with, but it's way way further down on my list. In your time as Chris, did any of the boys that played Tam, did any of them grow up to be, you know, someone that we know now?

[19:08] John Hill: Someone that we know now. Uh, let's see. Well, the funny thing is, like, again, just to coming back to like whether or not you can gender a twink and like what does it mean to really be a twink and a twink's, you know, soul. Most of the Tams, I think maybe 99.9% of them were female.

[19:34] Daniel Nolen: Interesting.

[19:35] John Hill: Because back then, this is very misogynist, or or the opposite. I don't know which one it is. But um, they uh girls at that age were more, I guess, quote unquote, um, what's the term? Easy to work with, less annoying.

[19:48] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[19:49] John Hill: Yeah. Than little boys. They were more controllable.

[19:52] Daniel Nolen: So that's very true.

[19:53] John Hill: Little girls, yeah. Fascinating. So I mean, like, are is Eva Noblesada like one of your TAMs.

[20:00] Daniel Nolen: Wait, how do I know that name?

[20:02] John Hill: She restarred as Kim in the revival of Miss Saigon in 80s time. That's a good uh documentary, like Where Are the Tams?

[20:09] Daniel Nolen: Where are the Tams? Where are the Tams? Go find that. Where have all the Tams gone?

[20:15] John Hill: Um, moving right along. Uh my number three uh twink is a name that rhymes with Twink, and it is from it. John, this is for you for from Hairspray the Musical, Link Larkin.

[20:29] Daniel Nolen: I have I have to contest this. I have something else on my list that I that I have to just can I sure.

[20:36] John Hill: What do you mean? You don't think it's a you don't think it's a twink role?

[20:41] Daniel Nolen: Um Hairspray can have more than one twink. I mean, I had two characters from Hairspray on my list, just none of them made the No, you're right. It's a twink role. I just think the Twinkie-esed role in that show is IQ, not that it's that big of a role.

[20:55] John Hill: IQ is that's interesting.

[20:57] Daniel Nolen: That's that's that was lots of straight guys play that role.

[21:01] John Hill: Yeah, but it's a really sl like not to size anyone, but like it is a slender, small, you have to be the smallest, kind of youngest, spryest, jumpiest one to play IQ. Um not the role I would have played in my youth either.

[21:15] Daniel Nolen: You're a you're a you're a Wilbur, babe.

[21:21] John Hill: Okay, yeah. So I'm sticking with Link, Twink Larkin.

[21:24] Daniel Nolen: Twink Larkin. I see it, yes.

[21:26] John Hill: Um, wait, okay, so that's me for my number three. Um you know, I just keep going for these lead roles. Um, and this is one that I think really changed the nature of play for Twink on Broadway forever. That is Mark and Rent.

[21:43] Daniel Nolen: Interesting.

[21:44] John Hill: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow, Rob Sapp's made a couple of appearances on this list.

[21:49] Daniel Nolen: Wait, Rob Sapp was Mark and Rent. Wasn't he?

[21:51] John Hill: For a minute. Not that I ever saw, but could have been. Okay, um, and then who's your number?

[21:58] Daniel Nolen: You uh fusion number four.

[22:00] John Hill: Okay, number four, uh going back to a little deeper in my youth is Dickens in the Secret Garden.

[22:06] Daniel Nolen: Oh, thank you.

[22:06] John Hill: That's a good one.

[22:07] Daniel Nolen: Oh pinnacle. One I did not even think of.

[22:10] John Hill: Maybe then I mean, honestly, Dickens is a twink role in all the ways that define a twink role, but also Dickin overlaps with the category of parts almost like the witch in Into the Woods, just a magical character with like mystery and power. He's like the When a thing is Twink.

[22:28] Daniel Nolen: Yes.

[22:28] John Hill: Yes, yes, that is our theme song. The thing is Twink, you know. I mean, he's like, yeah, he's like the puck of uh Secret Garden.

[22:35] Daniel Nolen: Totally, totally. Um of course, John Cameron Mitchell is forever a twink. I mean, he is still in his 60s, you know, showing up and twinkier than ever.

[22:47] John Hill: Yeah, I mean, he's still like when I see him, you know, spinning at Julius on Thursdays at Matashine, he has more energy than the rest of us put together. Um when a thing is twink, you know, that's really funny.

[23:05] Daniel Nolen: Okay, back to me. Now my number four. Now this is where. Um is uh Mistopheles from Cats.

[23:18] John Hill: Oh, Twink. There were there were so many cats to choose from in cats, but Mistopheles is the one who he's literally like the magical, you know, magician cat. Um, I I think like Rum Tum Tugger has to be a little mask, um, although also very fabulous. But uh Mistopheles to me kind of seems like the one who is like kind of the smallest and like the most uh spry spryest, not not taking up a lot of space except in his one big number he gets where he gets to leap around and do a lot of choreo. Um so yeah, Mistopheles was the cat I landed on. He's actually kind of the dickin of cats.

[24:02] Daniel Nolen: Yes, yes.

[24:05] John Hill: Magical twinks could be a separate category.

[24:08] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, truly.

[24:09] John Hill: Yeah, the year of magical twinking.

[24:11] Daniel Nolen: Oh yeah. Wishful wishful twinking.

[24:15] John Hill: By Joan Joan Dickian.

[24:17] Daniel Nolen: Oh my turn or no?

[24:21] John Hill: Yes.

[24:21] Daniel Nolen: Uh I mean, I just feel like it's obvious that Marius is up in there.

[24:25] John Hill: Oh, that was, yes, also on my list.

[24:27] Daniel Nolen: Also very good choice. Like, there's it's kind of like you get it's like your first, it's like your virginity, you know. Like any twink who who didn't play Marius doesn't get to qualify as a twink.

[24:37] John Hill: I know. I I did play Marius, thank you.

[24:40] Daniel Nolen: You have the hair for it.

[24:41] John Hill: You have the hair of an Epanine, but the soul.

[24:45] Daniel Nolen: It was not it was not quite this long when I played when I played them.

[24:49] John Hill: You didn't have a wig?

[24:52] Daniel Nolen: No, baby. Guthrie Oklahoma, we could barely afford lights and mics. Let alone wigs.

[24:56] John Hill: Yeah, let alone nice ones like these.

[25:00] Daniel Nolen: Fontine to have to cut her actual hair.

[25:04] John Hill: That's okay. Oh anyway. Wait, so okay, that means back to Daniel for number two.

[25:10] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, because that was your last one, right, John? That was your number five.

[25:14] John Hill: I had like Tulsa as a backup. But yeah.

[25:16] Daniel Nolen: Wait, I think that was only four, right?

[25:18] John Hill: Uh it was four for me. I I Okay, yeah. Did you want more then?

[25:22] Daniel Nolen: One more.

[25:22] John Hill: I have Tulsa from Gypsy up and great.

[25:24] Daniel Nolen: Love that. I mean, that I will say it five is uh the best where it belongs, but in a way it's the ultimate twink role. Just because it's like such a twink cameo. It's like as we know, Gypsy is a one-woman show.

[25:39] John Hill: Yeah.

[25:40] Daniel Nolen: And like there's just like a little like dash of twinkle. We need one. And it's always somebody who like well, I don't want to be rude, but it that be rude. Kind of like anybody can kind of get in there and do it.

[25:50] John Hill: Well, they have to be. I can't dance. I could I couldn't even audition for that. But I mean it's kind of like you get to be like if somebody's fun and you love them and you want to have them in your cast, like go get them.

[26:00] Daniel Nolen: The best Tulsa that I ever saw, and all due respect to David Burka.

[26:06] John Hill: Not David Burka, not the fabulous triple threat Tony Yasbeck.

[26:10] Daniel Nolen: Justin Bohan.

[26:12] John Hill: Not Justin Bohan, who was also good. Not not Joe Mahoda.

[26:17] Daniel Nolen: Uh great as he was. My favorite Tulsa was Leo Ash Evans in the Ravinia production.

[26:24] John Hill: Love Leo. Yes.

[26:25] Daniel Nolen: I don't I don't know her.

[26:27] John Hill: Leo is an actor's twink. A twink. An actor's tulsa. A twinkers actor. A twink stalsa. I can't believe I said to Leo though, he's playing Tata in ragtime somewhere this summer. And I'm like, in what universe I would really think of him still as like Mother's younger brother, another great twinkle. But we're all aging.

[26:51] Daniel Nolen: But one's a twink always a twink.

[26:54] John Hill: That's true. That's true. Gwen Verdon is a twink. Like you're always the soul of a twink.

[26:58] Daniel Nolen: Gwen Verden is dead.

[26:59] John Hill: Right, but she's always. Oh, her soul lives on. Um I like how you were very open minded with the twink, John. I like how you how you think of it as non-gendered.

[27:11] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, like you, like that's the you have the spirit of like Roxy Hart is a twink. It's a twink role. You have a twinky, kind of youthful, slutty exuberance. It's just like demanding copy.

[27:22] John Hill: I think this is very good. Youthful slutty exuberance is a very hungry.

[27:27] Daniel Nolen: Hungry.

[27:28] John Hill: Yeah. Thirsty. Hunger. Thirsty. Yes. Yes.

[27:32] Daniel Nolen: Well, this is that's a good, a good way to define it. Um, okay. Well, my next, my next uh and final uh twink, twink roll. Wait, is this the final one of the whole thing?

[27:44] John Hill: Yeah.

[27:45] Daniel Nolen: Is oh god. I mean, I have several on my short list. But um.

[27:50] John Hill: I feel like you're coming from mine, and I'm scared.

[27:53] Daniel Nolen: Um, it is Anthony from Sweeney Todd.

[27:56] John Hill: Woo-hoo.

[27:58] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[27:59] John Hill: He has the best song.

[28:00] Daniel Nolen: He has the best song.

[28:01] John Hill: He's always played by like a gentle uh Beggar Woman is kind of a twink.

[28:06] Daniel Nolen: No. I mean, Beggar Woman is a troll.

[28:11] John Hill: She literally lives under a bridge.

[28:13] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, she's evil.

[28:14] John Hill: Yeah. Um, yeah, Anthony. I mean, another it was either that or Pippin, but I think uh I don't know. I mean, I I think Anthony is more of like a get.

[28:30] Daniel Nolen: So yeah. Wait. So go ahead.

[28:35] John Hill: So let's let's let's reiterate.

[28:37] Daniel Nolen: I haven't done my number five yet.

[28:39] John Hill: Well, you haven't?

[28:40] Daniel Nolen: No.

[28:40] John Hill: Because you you did Cornelius, right?

[28:44] Daniel Nolen: Jeesh.

[28:51] John Hill: Oh, I didn't even think of Freddie. That's a good one. I love Freddy so much because first of all, Freddy has the most beautiful song in the world. Well, and it's one of the rare instances where a twink gets to sing baritone and not tenor. Yes, which I appreciate. And also Freddy is just so like he just wants love. He's in love with Eliza, and she just keeps on rejecting him, and he's just like, he just has his heart on his sleeve, and he just keeps on trying. Even when it's like so cruel, he's singing this like beautiful love song, speak, and the world's full of singing, and it's a throwaway. They're like, it just gets cut off. He doesn't even get a whole song there. They're just like, no bitch.

And he never loses his like open heart, good attitude. Well, at that end, just like Cornelius, just like Seymour. I think Freddy is a good example of the twink type of twink character that he's not just pining after a woman like romantically, but he's almost like worshiping her in almost like a diva worship way. Like Seymour with Audrey, him with Eliza. I mean, they they they're you know, Eliza and Audrey both are kind of these larger than life um creations that you know have suffered some sort of abuse, whether physical abuse with the dentist or you know, living on the streets and then having to you know be under the thumb of Henry Higgins. There are these sweet kind of um, you know, almost like saviors that look to them and want to help them.

[30:20] Daniel Nolen: I mean, I definitely see that like Matthew Broderick in Sleeping with the Enemy.

[30:26] John Hill: The movie Sleeping with the Enemy?

[30:27] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[30:28] John Hill: He's not in that about that. Wait, what am I thinking of?

[30:30] Daniel Nolen: The night we never met.

[30:31] John Hill: I'm confusing those movies. I don't know. I'm just getting back to my Kevin Anderson IMDb in the 90s. Sleeping sleeping with the Enemy is a great movie, though.

[30:39] Daniel Nolen: Julia Roberts.

[30:39] John Hill: Such a good movie. Yeah, her hair is so crazy. Who's the good guy in that one?

[30:44] Daniel Nolen: Um Aiden Quinn.

[30:45] John Hill: That's it, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[30:47] John Hill: And he's uh he's a musical theater teacher because there's that one scene where he she watches him out the window singing uh Westside's story. Wait, so is he like like like code switching, supposed to be gay in that?

[30:59] Daniel Nolen: I don't think so. I think it was like the 90s when you could be like a drama teacher and not be gay, you know.

[31:03] John Hill: Ridiculous. What was that time like?

[31:05] Daniel Nolen: I know. It was it was awful. Um anyway, okay. Let's let's all go through and and read off our list to just to so everyone everyone hears them again. Johnny.

[31:16] John Hill: Oh god. Okay, Jack from Into the Woods, stand by it. Peter Pan, notable honorable mention. Um I just want to mention IQ and hairspray. Also the twinkiest role in that, except for maybe Amber, who was the ultimate twink. Uh Ado Annie, thirsty, thirsty, desperate, and you know, demanding. Tam and Miss Saigon. Insane. Tulsa from Gypsy. Tulsa. I my quintessential, like bullseye for me is Marius from LeBez.

[31:46] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[31:47] John Hill: I I think Tulsa was your bullseye, but I think yeah, I think we need the we need these edited down to a five-point list. So we can Jack Tam Aido Tulsa Marius.

[32:00] Daniel Nolen: Fabulous. Okay, because when the episode comes out, we're gonna we're gonna like release release the list to I'm gonna get in trouble.

[32:06] John Hill: To the world.

[32:07] Daniel Nolen: No, you're not. No, you're not. Um you're gonna get in trouble. You're the most, you're you're the most progressively thinking of all of us.

[32:13] John Hill: Um okay, mine were uh Fiero, Cornelius, Hackle, Link Larkin from Hairspray, Mostofeles from Cats, and Anthony from Sweetie Todd.

[32:25] Daniel Nolen: Perfect. My mine were Usnavi, Seymour, Mark, Dickens, and Freddie Ainsford Hill. Such a great this is great. Good. And I want to say, I want to give shout out on Freddie to the greatest Freddie I've ever seen, Jordan Donica in the Lincoln Center Theater Revival, who is now uh or just I'm not sure, is he going to Broadway? He was Rapunzel's Prince in Into the Woods at City Center.

[32:56] John Hill: No, actually, I think he might be being he might be being replaced by uh Joshua Henry, yeah. I'm assuming that's who Josh was playing. He must have some fancy TV job, but he was so spectacular in that. Um he's really hard to call a twink because he's like 6'9 and like you know, probably like could be like a football like star if he wanted to be, like in pro football, to keep it on the sports analogies, uh necessarily snaking down, snaking down. Oh.

[33:26] John Hill: But he uh is really funny and charming.

[33:31] Daniel Nolen: Just like you.

[33:33] John Hill: Thank you, John.

[33:34] John Hill: Oh yes, you're welcome. Okay, wait. So what else are we gonna talk about for the next 15 minutes?

[33:41] Daniel Nolen: Well, I why don't we talk about um some roles that are not twink roles?

[33:47] John Hill: Yes. That we would love to see played instead by a twink. Uh it's sort of the kind of thing John was saying, maybe with Ado Annie. Like, I think that's an interesting um idea. Like like gender, like um, I almost put down um from company uh uh Jamie. It used to be Amy, now Jamie. I mean, that's but I almost I almost did PJ from company used to be Marta.

[34:11] John Hill: Yes, but like like I mean, honestly, like wouldn't Alphabet be a great twink role? Every twink wants to or maybe even more so Glinda. I think Glinda.

[34:20] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[34:22] John Hill: I I I would see like there hell hath no fury, like a twink scorn. And so I would say something more like I would like to see uh Javert played by a twink because like that side of a twinkle is so angry. Like you twink. Yeah, like a mean, vengeful I if I don't get my way, I pull myself off this bridge. Like Jamie Saparo in um Smash. Like evil kill myself. What's another good evil twink roll? I like the evil twink rolls.

[34:52] Daniel Nolen: Oh, um I mean, like, I guess, well, I guess if Audrey was a twink, then the dentist could be like another mean twink. That would be funny. You know what? A lot of twinks graduate and do play. If they're funny, they graduate and play the dentist.

[35:07] John Hill: Oh, a um evil twink roll is Mordred and Camelot.

[35:12] Daniel Nolen: Moldred. I don't remember who Mordred is. I love Camelot, but I'm not sure.

[35:15] John Hill: Like Morgan La Fay's son. I think he has the song The Seven Deadly Sins or the 12. How many Deadly Sins is it?

[35:22] Daniel Nolen: Seven.

[35:23] John Hill: Also I know that Barrett Foa played it at Paper Mill Playhouse, so the math. Lancelot's kind of a twink roll. I had Lancelot on my list, actually. I love that song. Also another another moment. Sir John objects. Another moment when the bear. I don't know. I don't know that show. It's coming back, right? It's being revived at Link Lincoln Sentra.

[35:45] Daniel Nolen: Oh, that yeah, that is true, isn't it? I forgot who they said was doing it.

[35:50] John Hill: Anyone from Avita, just to bring it back to your like, you know, Che is not really a Twink, but you know who is a Twink from uh from A Vita is another suitcase, another hall bitch. That is a twink who's on her way off from being like banged for one night, and she's like fine, whatever. Although Che was played by one of our favorite Twink in the City Center team of course.

[36:08] Daniel Nolen: Yes, that is absolutely uh Jason Jason Gote, who's actually, I think maybe my age or older, but he's still very, very twinky to me. Um what are some other what are roles that you guys John, what roles did you play as a as a youngin?

[36:25] John Hill: Uh Link was, I guess that's a Twinkie role. I guess Chris per um Ben's roles. I was uh What about like back in your like community theater days when you were a kid?

[36:36] John Hill: Anthony.

[36:37] Daniel Nolen: Oh, you worked your way through the twinklies.

[36:40] John Hill: I did. Who were the leads when you were Anthony and Sweeney Tot?

[36:44] Daniel Nolen: In community theater in Texas.

[36:46] John Hill: Oh yeah, for some reason I thought you did like a big production, like it, you know, in Houston or something.

[36:50] John Hill: Oh, you know, I skipped that phase of anyone's theatrical career, which is probably why mine is so short. But I didn't do I had an agent who's like, you know, in between your Broadway roles, you need to go and like be really hustling these traditional roles at at regional theaters across the country. And I was like, you want me to go? You want me to do what? Like I couldn't. I also didn't have any sort of uh training or book that would um facilitate that. Like I don't know the standards as well, so I didn't really get that get to play. And I also couldn't dance, so a lot of twinks no, I don't really dance.

[37:21] Daniel Nolen: Can you not can you really not dance?

[37:23] John Hill: Um I can I can fake it. I can fake it a little bit. I'm trying to think what else. Uh let's see, Sweeney Todd. Little Night Music, Henrik.

[37:30] Daniel Nolen: Oh, Henry Oh yeah, that's a good time. Henrik Henrik was on my short list. Um I think we've really discussed all the other ones I had on Gabe from Next to Normal, that was one I had, but I didn't have to. Uh is Evan Hansen a twink?

[37:44] John Hill: Evan Hansen is a twink, yes.

[37:47] Daniel Nolen: It's a complex twink with issues.

[37:49] John Hill: Yeah. I finally saw the movie on a plane.

[37:52] Daniel Nolen: Oh, I haven't seen it.

[37:53] John Hill: I saw I love the show. I love it. I love the show too. I don't want to, I don't want to uh tarnish my my experience with it. Because I feel like now Evan Hansen has gotten such a bad rap, you know.

[38:05] Daniel Nolen: I could see, I enjoyed it because I I did not know the show at all. I had never seen it on Broadway. I didn't know the music except for things I'd heard, you know, at the Tony's or whatever. Um but I thoroughly enjoyed the movie because I re I was like, oh, I get the source material on Broadway. This show is probably really great.

[38:21] John Hill: Yeah. So I was able to and I I enjoyed the the spectacle of what I was seeing on the plane. I couldn't believe how's Amy Adams?

[38:29] Daniel Nolen: Well, you know, I love her.

[38:32] John Hill: Not my favorite in musicals. I did not like her in Into the Woods in Central Park.

[38:36] Daniel Nolen: Isn't it funny though with her? She's someone I love through and through and can do no wrong. Love her so much. But um you th because I saw Into the Woods as well, and it it didn't. I was expecting so much. In theory, that is the perfect casting for that role. And in every I think, you know, um I like I think that Joanna Gleason, like we Daniel and I talk about this all the time because we all grew up with a lot of things. That's a perfect performance. And we all grew up watching the video. So we don't only memorize the cast recording, we know the line reading she gave. I was watching a clip of Sarah Borrellis, and it was like, it does, I was thinking how great she is, but it was like no matter how good or perfect anyone is, you just it's hard to separate yourself from the but Sarah was a mile better than Amy Adams, let me tell you that. No comparison.

[39:21] Daniel Nolen: Well, well, you know, I didn't like that production though.

[39:25] John Hill: In the park?

[39:26] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[39:26] John Hill: They didn't know.

[39:29] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, the steampunk production. I don't like anything steampunk. I don't like the aesthetic. It was very cool. First of all, the young people were amazing. Gideon Glick and Sarah Styles and Jesse Mueller. They were absolutely brilliant. I'll I'll I I wasn't in a good place in my life. So I was only full of hatred and rage. Didn't like it. Everybody loved the young people. I mean, it's more controversial, some of the older people. They were wonderful. And and and what's her name? Um Donna Murphy.

[39:55] John Hill: Donna Murphy was good. It wasn't the best, but Christine Zabornick was fabulous as Jack's mother. Um, well, going back to Amy Adams, I love her too so much. She's one of my favorite actresses of the screen. But you know what I heard she was not great in was the Glass Menagerie on the at the at the West End, which is on playing right now. I was seriously, like, I love her so much. I was like, am I gonna fly to London just to see her do that's a perfect part for her, though.

[40:19] Daniel Nolen: Oh, wait, as who?

[40:20] John Hill: As Amanda. Blowing my mind. No, I was like, she would have been a great Laura back in the day, but no, she's definitely the guest. Um I'm not ready. Oh, I'm not ready for that. I heard it was not good. Whoever I talked to was like, save your money, don't, don't. Or if you, or if you go, there are other productions to see, but not. I mean, Sally Fields was like 70 and she was flawless.

[40:40] Daniel Nolen: That is how I like it.

[40:41] John Hill: I also didn't like Sally. I didn't like that production, though.

[40:43] Daniel Nolen: Did you see Cherry Jones?

[40:46] John Hill: Yes, I did.

[40:47] Daniel Nolen: No, I wish I would have. I wish I'd have said that. You need someone who can interpret it from a lot of different angles. And also someone who's literally from Tennessee. No shade to anybody else, but like in particular. You know, Blast Marsh was a play I did in high school. Tom is very twink in her. Oh, right. Um, for a closeted guy in high school in Texas who like wants to also be artistic, and it's kind of accepted because in that interpretation, he's just kind of a little quirky and creative. Right. Huge homo. But like that was such a weird experience. But like, I do like the depth of having somebody who knows every little minor um nuance having grown up in place like Tennessee like Jerry Jones, like who as a big part of her um life, you know.

[41:27] John Hill: Oh, I love that. I didn't know she was from Tennessee.

[41:29] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, me either. I just knew she wasn't Jewish.

[41:33] John Hill: But John, it is such a thrill to have you here because you know every nuance of musical theater from just the dance belt to Broadway and beyond. It is really you were on the inside, you were there, you were the twink, whether you acknowledge it or not, and you were you were you were part of it, and I think you bring a real uh freshness to the discussion. Jeanette quoi.

[41:57] John Hill: Uh I love you guys so much, both huge fans.

[42:01] Daniel Nolen: Have Tyler Maynard on.

[42:02] John Hill: Well, you were.

[42:03] Daniel Nolen: Absolutely will. We will absolutely will. We might just cast him as Ado Annie and skip the podcast.

[42:08] John Hill: And John. If people, if people are twinks or otherwise, are thirstier for more John Hill or if they want to run up that hill, where can they find you? And what else do you have for us?

[42:19] John Hill: Okay, Bush. Yes, get your hounds of love and come follow me at John Hill on Instagram. I don't tweet. Uh, you can listen to SiriusXM channel 102. I'm Andy Cohen's co-host Mondays and Wednesdays. I have my own show on Tuesdays, 8 a.m. live Pacific. Yikes. This is too much information and also Discretion Advise Podcast with Mark McNamara on Apple Podcasts.

[42:40] Daniel Nolen: I love Andrew.

[42:41] John Hill: Wonderful. Wonderful. We love you, John. Come back again.

[42:43] John Hill: Thanks for having me.

[42:46] John Hill: Bye.

[42:50] Daniel Nolen: Thank you for tuning in to Cast Offs the Podcast. If you're in New York City, come visit us every Monday at 8 p.m. at Club Coming. A big appreciation to our good Judy's composer Billy Reese for the cast offs theme song and to the wonderful photographer Austin Ruffer for our cast offs photo. Check them both out online. See you next time.