This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Unknown speaker: Next up on Destination Freedom.

[0:02] Unknown speaker: Let's get back to this hair.

[0:04] Unknown speaker: Now I've done seen the best of them with a conch.

[0:07] Unknown speaker: Good black men.

[0:08] Unknown speaker: Let's see uh Lewis Johnson, Count Basie, Cab Callaway, Nat King Cole.

[0:16] Unknown speaker: My daddy says it's just another example of the black man trying to be white.

[0:19] Unknown speaker: He calls it utter foolishness.

[0:21] Unknown speaker: Uh again, I say your daddy is a plum fool.

[0:28] Unknown speaker: Ain't not a soul as clean as a Negro with a conch.

[0:32] Unknown speaker: No white man, no born buzz cut Negro.

[0:37] Unknown speaker: You best stop listening to what your daddy say.

[0:39] Unknown speaker: That their horn is not for little boys with daddies in their ear.

[0:44] Unknown speaker: Say no more.

[0:45] Unknown speaker: Conk for show.

[0:47] Unknown speaker: Wait.

[0:48] Unknown speaker: Uh, do you think getting my hair conked will make me lose my identity?

[0:52] Unknown speaker: I don't know about all that, but you about to be cleaner than a bill of health after I'm done.

[1:08] Donnie Betts: Welcome to Destination Freedom Black Radio Days Podcast.

[1:11] Donnie Betts: The copyrighted program of No Credits Productions LLC.

[1:20] Donnie Betts: Racial biases spark a fuse when a 17-year-old black student starts his first day at a new high school, named after the KKK Grand Wizard.

[1:28] Donnie Betts: The student finds himself in unsolicited trouble and is confronted by a black male principal.

[1:33] Donnie Betts: The principal begins to lecture the student and believes he is teaching the student a lesson, but instead receives a lesson from the student.

[1:41] Donnie Betts: The lesson.

[1:42] Donnie Betts: The conch.

[1:44] Donnie Betts: Black hair history is provided with a short excerpt about the conch.

[1:48] Donnie Betts: Hairstyle worn by black men in the 1940s and early 50s.

[1:52] Donnie Betts: A young black musician walks into a barbershop inquiring about the conch hairstyle or a style that's gonna make him look clean for his music debut.

[2:01] Donnie Betts: A barber and his friend greet him with a regular barbershop banter, knowledge and education about the craze of the conk hairstyle for black men and the mindset that comes along with it.

[2:12] Donnie Betts: The lesson, the conk on Destination Freedom, Black Radio Days.

[2:18] Donnie Betts: Next.

[3:44] Donnie Betts: The year is 2013, a year before the name change of Nathan B. Forrest High School, named after the first grand wizard of the KKK.

[3:55] Donnie Betts: Tahuti Brown, an 11th grader after school, leans against the wall in the hallway, waiting to speak with the school counselor.

[4:02] Donnie Betts: He's just transferred from his old school, Marcus Garvey High.

[4:06] Donnie Betts: He's dressed in a black hoodie, sagging jeans, a baseball cap, and a backpack.

[4:11] Donnie Betts: He bops his head and lip syncs to Drake's song "Started from the Bottom."

[4:16] Tahuti Brown: Hey grandma.

[4:18] Tahuti Brown: First day of Nathan B. Forrest High was whack.

[4:21] Tahuti Brown: I'm like one out of five black boys here who don't play on the basketball team.

[4:25] Tahuti Brown: It's not like Garvey High at all.

[4:25] Tahuti Brown: I'm staying after to talk to the counselor today.

[4:31] Tahuti Brown: I don't really trust counselors, but I guess I have to since Ma wants me to sort out my feelings about what happened to the trick.

[5:01] Ms. Wilson: Excuse me, young man. The bell has rung and school is over.

[5:05] Tahuti Brown: Hello?

[5:06] Ms. Wilson: It's time for you to go home.

[5:08] Tahuti Brown: I said, excuse me.

[5:10] Ms. Wilson: She rips the headphones out of his ears.

[5:12] Tahuti Brown: Hey yo, what the hell? What did you do that for?

[5:15] Ms. Wilson: You clearly heard me telling you that the bell has rung and school is over.

[5:20] Tahuti Brown: Oh, my bad, my music was playing.

[5:22] Ms. Wilson: I'm sick and tired of you people loitering and causing trouble after school.

[5:27] Ms. Wilson: All you do is drink, smoke, and listen to your gangster rap.

[5:31] Ms. Wilson: I'm just sick of it.

[5:33] Tahuti Brown: You people.

[5:34] Tahuti Brown: Uh look, Miss, I'm not loitering.

[5:37] Tahuti Brown: I was just waiting on the—

[5:37] Ms. Wilson: Save it for someone who cares.

[5:42] Tahuti Brown: If anyone does.

[5:44] Ms. Wilson: What? Are you even a student here? Let me see your student ID.

[5:46] Tahuti Brown: Miss, I just transferred today. I haven't received my school ID yet.

[5:51] Ms. Wilson: Sure you haven't. You looking for some of that, uh, smoke, selling or buying.

[5:58] Tahuti Brown: What the hell are you? I'm not. I don't know what you're talking about. I'm not selling or buying anything, lady.

[6:04] Tahuti Brown: You're being real extra, for real.

[6:06] Ms. Wilson: You thugs need to stop posing as students and hanging out here, okay?

[6:11] Ms. Wilson: Just by the way you're dressed, I can tell you belong to some kind of street gang. Now leave.

[6:16] Ms. Wilson: Ms. Wilson begins to push Tahuti, forcibly out the door.

[6:20] Tahuti Brown: Don't touch me. Get off me. Get your hands off of me.

[6:23] Tahuti Brown: Dehunty tries to break free. Jerks his arm away, and Ms. Wilson is slightly pushed back.

[6:29] Ms. Wilson: Oh. You pushed me. You tried to knock me down.

[6:34] Tahuti Brown: No, no, no, I didn't.

[6:36] Ms. Wilson: Ms. Wilson sticks her hand in his face and pulls out a walkie-talkie.

[6:40] Ms. Wilson: Help! Security! Security! I'm being attacked by some hoodlum posing as a student.

[6:46] Tahuti Brown: What? I'm not a hoodlum, and I didn't attack you.

[6:50] Ms. Wilson: I need backup. Tell Principal Shoey to get here. Now, now!

[6:55] Tahuti Brown: You're crazy. I didn't attack you. You put your hands on me first. You wouldn't listen.

[6:59] Ms. Wilson: Stay back. If security and Principal Shoey can't handle you, I know the police sure as hell will. And I'll call them in a heartbeat.

[7:05] Tahuti Brown: That's all y'all ever do. And then they kill us.

[7:11] Principal Shoey: Principal Shoey runs in and managed to get between Tahuti and Ms. Wilson.

[7:18] Principal Shoey: What the hell is going on here? Who told you it was a good idea to attack my staff, young man?

[7:22] Tahuti Brown: Just let me go! This white lady's lying on me! She put her hands on me first and said she was gonna call the police. They did the same thing to my big brother.

[7:29] Tahuti Brown: Yo, let me go, man. I hate this school.

[7:32] Principal Shoey: Calm down, young man. You're the transfer student, right? In my office.

[7:38] Principal Shoey: Young man, do you hear me talking to you in my office now?

[7:43] Ms. Wilson: I'm so glad you came in time. He got so angry. I thought it would be a good idea, you know, to call the police in case he became more violent. Some of these thugs just hang around here for fun, just looking for trouble.

[7:56] Principal Shoey: Ms. Wilson, I will have you to know that he is a transfer student from Marcus Garvey High and not a thug.

[8:03] Principal Shoey: As the school's counselor, it amazes me how you can hold such biases.

[8:07] Ms. Wilson: Did he physically attack you?

[8:10] Ms. Wilson: Yes.

[8:11] Ms. Wilson: Didn't you see him hovering over me like he wanted another piece of me?

[8:16] Principal Shoey: But he said you put your hands on him first.

[8:19] Ms. Wilson: All I did was ask him to leave the halls, Principal Shoey.

[8:22] Ms. Wilson: You know how these thugs—

[8:25] Principal Shoey: If you haven't figured it out, your actions and words are what push students to a thug mentality and straight into prisons.

[8:33] Principal Shoey: You know, as educators, we have dedicated ourselves to critical race theories and culturally responsive pedagogy.

[8:40] Principal Shoey: It's important we are aware of our own biases, Ms. Wilson. I'll send you a calendar invite to discuss this further.

[8:46] Principal Shoey: Have a good day, I'll take it from here.

[8:48] Ms. Wilson: But I have a good day, Miss Wilson.

[8:52] Tahuti Brown: Whoa. You need to chill out and calm down.

[8:57] Ms. Wilson: Don't tell me to calm down. I'm sick of them. They don't know me. I swear they don't know me.

[9:04] Tahuti Brown: Tahuti Brown. 11th grade transfer from Marcus Garvey High.

[9:09] Tahuti Brown: Whatever you're reading still can't tell you nothing about me unless you do your research.

[9:14] Principal Shoey: But I always do my research, Mr. Brown. Especially when a student of color walks through these doors. So tell me, what was that all about?

[9:23] Tahuti Brown: Ask her. She's the one pressing me. She's just very assumptive.

[9:28] Principal Shoey: I heard you mention something about your big brother. Did that have something to do with it?

[9:34] Tahuti Brown: Nah. You didn't hear me say nothing.

[9:38] Principal Shoey: Mr. Brown, here at Forest High, we strive to be the best academically, as well as pride ourselves on the moral behaviors of our students and staff.

[9:48] Principal Shoey: Flipping chairs over, punching lockers, not going to be tolerated. There are very few students and staff of color here, so you have to go above and beyond to prove you are a good fit.

[9:59] Tahuti Brown: Good fit? I didn't ask to come here. And I didn't do anything wrong. This school's named after a KKK grand wizard, and there are literally five black students here. So please, don't talk to me about this school's moral behaviors.

[10:13] Tahuti Brown: They thought hiring some old uppity nigga would pacify it, I guess.

[10:16] Principal Shoey: Boy, you bet.

[10:18] Principal Shoey: Excuse me, Mr. Brown. Black students who come from the hood like yourself fail to realize how important it is to be set on a path of success.

[10:29] Principal Shoey: We have to stop making excuses. I've worked hard to become black excellence, Mr. Brown. I hope you're striving for the same goal.

[10:37] Principal Shoey: The question we need to ask ourselves is what does it mean to be a black man struggling against similar systems of dehumanization and oppression? And how do we overcome that?

[10:48] Principal Shoey: How do we sing our song in a land that positions us as anti-intellectual, oversexed, violent, misogynistic, emotionally distant and cold?

[11:00] Principal Shoey: Why is it that we are the culture where it's corny to be smart and responsible? We as black men must fight daily to change that narrative that we are all not thugs.

[11:12] Principal Shoey: This is your first day at a new school, and it's important to make a good first impression. Your behavior reflects poorly on all us black men on this campus, specifically me as your principal.

[11:24] Principal Shoey: I feel sort of an obligation to you, Mr. Brown.

[11:26] Tahuti Brown: Well don't. You're not my dad, all right? I have a father. What you need to do is stop preaching to me and work on doing your job and finding out why your black students are being treated like common criminals.

[11:38] Tahuti Brown: I heard you talking to that white lady. Y'all could all use a lesson on critical race theory.

[11:45] Principal Shoey: Hmm. Says here you were the lead editor of your school magazine. Wow, a journalist. I can see that. You certainly seem like a very smart, talented, and outspoken young man, especially with a name like Tahuti.

[12:01] Principal Shoey: Did you know that your name means Egyptian God of earth, moon, sky, air, and sea? God of writing, speaking, and knowledge. Mostly known for inventions such as the hieroglyphics, also known as the messenger.

[12:14] Tahuti Brown: Yeah. I ain't gotta act like some basic white boy to show you my intelligence. You can't tell me nothing, bruh.

[12:21] Tahuti Brown: I can educate you.

[12:24] Tahuti Brown: Bruh. When black people display their intelligence, they are not imitating any ideal of whiteness. Intelligence is not an inherently white trait.

[12:35] Principal Shoey: Like I said, my black excellence is self-made, Mr. Brown. I attended Morehouse College, which is a historically black institution, and gained networks with so many brothers it helped me gain traction in my career, despite my environment.

[12:49] Tahuti Brown: Oh, let me guess. You grew up in the hood and overcame drugs and gang violence and still made something of yourself?

[12:56] Principal Shoey: Yeah.

[12:58] Principal Shoey: Yeah, I've heard that one before.

[13:01] Tahuti Brown: No. I came from a good home. Both of my parents were and still are attorneys. We lived in the suburbs. Surrounded by nothing but racist white people who called me uppity nigga quite frequently. I had to fight that environment.

[13:17] Principal Shoey: They expect men like us to fail, but I know we're greater.

[13:23] Tahuti Brown: Nah. You think you're greater than me. You look at how I'm dressed and automatically think I'm some kind of lost thug you have to save and lecture.

[13:32] Tahuti Brown: Hey uh, I got things to do. I'm a bounce.

[13:35] Principal Shoey: We're not done here.

[13:37] Principal Shoey: You're not a thug, Mr. Brown.

[13:39] Tahuti Brown: Tell that to the lady who said I attacked her. Your assumptions of me not being capable of conducting myself properly is the same as that white lady who's afraid of me because I'm black and listening to rap music.

[13:50] Principal Shoey: Your moral base and her racist biases are the real problem. Not me.

[13:55] Tahuti Brown: Touche, Mr. Brown. You're absolutely right. I appreciate you enlightening my perspectives. Sometimes I get so caught up in wanting to save my people, I forget to cheer them on. So thank you. The secret of change is to focus all your energy, not on fighting the old, but building the new. Socrates. That's one of my favorite quotes. Uh yeah, uh yeah, my brother made me memorize it. Cause he says I get lost to my feelings about the past a lot. Um he showed me my black excellence.

[14:40] Principal Shoey: Your brother sounds like a good man. What happened to your brother, Mr. Brown?

[14:49] Tahuti Brown: I have a little brother. Well, had a little brother. He was killed eleven years ago. He was only seventeen. It was sort of an accident, wrong place, wrong time, kind of a thing. After he was killed, I decided to go into education so I could teach young brothers other options in life. But I found myself, as you say, preaching to young black men trying to get them to change.

[15:19] Principal Shoey: You're making me realize my misplaced judgment. Come on, young brother. Just tell me what happened.

[15:33] Tahuti Brown: That's why my mom made me come to this school and live with my grandma. She said this school would be better for me, so I could get my mind off my big brother. Tariq. They killed my brother, man. Why did they kill my brother? I miss him so much.

[16:09] Principal Shoey: Who killed your brother?

[16:12] Tahuti Brown: Who killed your brother? Sunday morning breakfast. Mom needed eggs from the store. Just turned 16. Asked if I could drive my brother's whip. I prefer his Lexus over the explorer. Golden sunshine. Blue skies, basketball on the blacktop. My brother would get so mad at my reach, cause I'd always block his jump shot. I hopped in the driver's seat, big bro rode shotgun. He listened to gospel music all day with mom, so we turned up some trap rap for fun. My ball. Game point, Euro step to the hoop, bounced it off the backboard, gave myself an alley oop. We hit the block fast. I thought I was flexing. Tire marks on the curve to avoid the car from wrecking. That's game. He smiled and said that I cheated. Tried to mush my head. He told me if I messed up his tires, he'd tell my girl I used to pee in the bed. We laughed. Blackout.

[17:04] Tahuti Brown: The park was so full that day. So many kids at the playground. We passed the cop car on the street. My brother yelled for me to slow down. I heard ice cream trucks, kids laughing, loud bass and range rovers. I seen flashing lights, heard sirens, voices saying, pull the car over. I looked over at my brother. He screamed out to run. He told me to be cool because in the car he had a gun. Bullets flying, children crying from the hands of hood gangs on the street. The officer told us to step out of the car and asked for ID. I looked back at the court and all I could do was holler. They said my brother fit the profile of an armed bank robber. So many people shot. I tried to look for my brother in all of the mess.

They searched our car, found the gun, and tried to place my brother under arrest. That's when it happened. Bloody basketballs when my brother lay. One shot to his chest from the bullet spray. My brother resisted and told the officers he was licensed to carry. They didn't give a damn because of them. He looks scary. They killed my brother.

[18:06] Unknown speaker: Excuse me, Principal Shoey. I don't mean to bother you again, but there's a new student that was supposed to come see me today after school. Says here on his school records he's an amazing writer. We should get him to join our media blog. His name is T Hooty Brown. Have you heard of it?

[18:37] Unknown speaker: Granddaddy all back. No camping fat black. Both captain stayed floating, no fabric wave runner. I'm a gunner. I'm a hair block. I have a solar all summer. And I put that on Osama and my motherfuck-up mama. I'm a terrorizer act of playing like they won't some drama. I'm a chopper with a chopper pull up.

[18:59] Unknown speaker: In 2014, Nathan B. Ford's high school's name was finally changed to West Side High School after 55 years. Next up, the conk on Destination Freedom.

[19:41] Unknown speaker: Destination Freedom Black Radio Days presents The Conk. Written by Kenya Mahogany Fashaw. Characters, James, young black male, 19 to 20. Hart, the barber, black male. Shorty, black male, man of the world in his own mind.

[20:15] Unknown speaker: A young boy named James walks into the barber shop. The year is 1945, the end of World War II.

[20:44] Hart: Good morning. How y'all doing?

[20:46] James: Good, good. You looking to get cleaned up?

[20:49] Hart: Yes, sir. Hart. The magic barber is the man for you then, young blood. My dude already cleaner than a fresh pray of Stacia Adams. Hart shall hook me up. You know, I'll get draped from head to toe, and I only have the best taking care of the treasure on top of my head.

[21:09] Shorty: Hey, my boy Shorty, no mind. I can take care of you. As much time he spends here, you think he worked here.

[21:16] Hart: Who you looking to impress anyway? You got your young cold scuttle blonde? Where on the color scale is the lucky lady?

[21:23] James: I don't deal on no cold. The light is better and white is right. This girl here, light up the rune and got all the Negroes wide-eyed and lusting.

[21:34] Shorty: You one of those, huh? Running from your own kind.

[21:37] James: Yeah, you heard what I said. You mean to tell me I've been associating with a handkerchief head, Uncle Tom ass Negro this whole time?

[21:45] Hart: Don't do your sisters like that, shorty.

[21:47] James: I ain't doing them no way.

[21:49] Hart: Don't do me like that, Hart. Get off my back and leave me alone about them white gals. I want to see you try to get a woman before talking to me about how I treat any woman. Damn it.

[22:00] Shorty: You sure you wanna talk that jive when I got this razor in my hand? Ain't nobody scared of you, sucker.

[22:04] Hart: Oh, shut up. There it out, shorty. I gotta make my letters.

[22:11] Shorty: As you command, oh sucker of the razor.

[22:17] Hart: Hey, what you looking to get done today, young blood?

[22:21] James: I'm not sure. I'm supposed to leave here with a clean cut. My daddy wants this hair off my head, but I got a gig coming up, and I need to look the part of a musician.

[22:31] Hart: Uh-huh. This kid came to the right place. Kink no mo. What you play?

[22:38] James: Uh, saxophone.

[22:39] Hart: What you talking about, kink no mo. Young blood, let me tell you. I'm the best conk barber around, never to be associated with the company Knox Kinks Crazy. That KKK foolishness ain't welcome around here. Still don't know why them Negroes named the conk company after the KKK. But I'm the best. Go blow your horn in the cleft club and find out. I work my magic. I wash, straighten, trim, even throw a little dye in there if you'd like. Now you know. What you say your name was?

[23:09] James: Uh, I'm James Wilson.

[23:10] Hart: Jeans ain't ready for that heat. So don't put him in the kitchen, baby. I remember I gave a country boy like you a conk back in Boston not long ago. My boy Red.

[23:22] Hart: Ah, here we go. He always talking that mess about how he did the best conk in Harlem, but don't want to rent no chair. He just hang around my shop all day. Hard, will you stop interrupting me before I bust your chops? My hustle bigger than cutting these dirty neck Negroes' heads all day long. Back to what I was saying. Red, he ended up being my best friend. We've been running around Roxboro together. His hair was like a Brillo pad before I got to him. I let his hair grow out, and after some weeks of growing, I sent him to the store for some Congolese dream recipe. Now my little mix ain't got nothing on hearts. But what I used was some potatoes, that red devil dye, eggs, Vaseline, a bar of soap, hair combs, a water hole sprayer, rubber apron, and gloves. That's all I needed to get to work.

[24:20] James: What's all that for? We going back to war with the Japs or something?

[24:23] Hart: It's the beginning of the new you. The better you. Catch my dream. Cooler than the other side of the pillow. Flyer than a bald eagle. More style than any white man walking around Manhattan. This hair, young blood, is shiny, slick, pack. Mm-hmm. That's freshly trimmed style that catches all the women's eyes. Yes, it does. Mmm. Gonna leave right here. Also known as conk. Make a woman fall in love with you and have you screaming your name. Then she's gonna wanna rub her fingers through your hair. Yes, Lord!

[25:06] Shorty: Enough of all that what he's talking about. I use my own special mix of potatoes, eggs, and lie to lay you down and straighten you out just right. I don't know what Red was thinking about. Letting shorty style him up. Red lucky he's not running around here bald like Jack Johnson. Scalp burning and all fooling around with this jig.

[25:26] Hart: Get up off of me. I did right by Red.

[25:30] Shorty: Oh, enough of what you talking about. Shut up, fool. Young man, your hair long enough. What you say? You ready to get conked out?

[25:39] James: My pops talk real bad about having one. I don't know. He says everyone suffers from an inferiority complex, and things looking like that don't make it no better. He told me black men who conk lost touch with themselves.

[25:51] Hart: Your father ain't the one sitting here right now, neither. He ain't nothing but a conk busting, beating his gums.

[25:59] James: Watch your mouth about my daddy, brother.

[26:01] Hart: Now you two settle down. We ain't got no space for that up in here.

[26:05] Shorty: Nah, he don't know a damn thing about style. Your daddy don't understand the total package. From conks to zoot suits, and so every inch is important. Especially if you plan on being seen blowing that horn anywhere around here. The talent has to match the look. You catch what I'm throwing?

[26:24] James: Yeah, I get it. All my dad wants is for me to focus on is getting in one of those black colleges so I can get a good job. All I want to do is play my horn.

[26:34] Hart: You look like you about what? 19, 20? About time, you start living your own life.

[26:40] James: Yeah, not living your born ass daddy's life.

[26:43] Hart: I'm not gonna tell you again to watch your mouth talking about my daddy, old man.

[26:46] Shorty: What you plan on doing about it? You scared of your daddy. What do you think? I'm gonna do to you. I'm the one you need to be scared of.

[26:56] Hart: Ah, come on. Sit down, James. Play this fool sort of no mind. Let's get back to this hair. Now I done seen the best of them with a conk. Good black men. Let's see, uh Lewis Johnson, Count Basie, Cab Callaway, Nat King Cole.

[27:14] James: My daddy says it's just another example of the black man trying to be white. He calls it utter foolishness.

[27:20] Hart: Uh again, I say your daddy is a plum fool. Ain't not a soul as clean as a Negro with a conk.

[27:31] Hart: No white man, no born buzz-cut Negro. You best stop listening to what your daddy say. That there horn is not for little boys with daddies in their ear. Say no more. Conk for sure.

[27:45] James: Oh wait. Uh, do you think getting my hair conked will make me lose my identity?

[27:51] Hart: I don't know about all that, but you about to be cleaning in a bill of health after I'm done. Don't you want to prove your daddy wrong by going to some nigga college and become a big time horn player?

[28:04] James: I do want more gigs. I play real good. Most people like it.

[28:08] Hart: Well, let's get you more gigs, young blood. While you're at it, make sure you throw in some of them white gags, too.

[28:16] Hart takes his lie brush and starts to apply it in his hair. The lie begins to burn instantly.

[28:22] James makes groaning noises, begins to grip the chair, and is noticeably starting to feel the pain.

[28:28] Hart: Come on, come on now. You can take it, young blood. You're almost there. That conk gonna be right for you, I swear. Just a little longer. Then we wash it out.

[28:36] Hart starts to comb through the chemical-filled hair. James is looking more and more uncomfortable.

[28:44] James: It really hurts. I need to wash this mess out now. Is my hair falling out? Tell me something. Y'all lied to me. My head is on fire.

[28:59] Hart: Tell this boy he'd be all right so he could shut up. He's right for change. I've been doing this for a long time, so you ain't careful hands.

[29:08] Hart: All right, I'm all done. Let's head over to the sink and wash it out.

[29:10] Hart proceeds to wash, then style. Hart swings James around in the barber chair with his fresh, straightened conk.

[29:22] Hart: Woo! Wee! Shiny, slick back like a brand new cat lack. You play that saxophone full time and you got yourself a day job.

[29:33] James: I work over at the hotel as a bellhop. Them white folks be looking at me sideways all the time.

[29:39] Hart: Probably cause your hair was looking like it did.

[29:42] James: Kiss my ass. My supervisor said I needed to do something about it. Since I got my first gig coming up at Minton's Playhouse, I figured I'd get right up in here. So I can look right up there. I hear a lot of names drop up there.

[29:55] Hart: I give this same style to half the musicians in Harlem, Young Blood. I told you that you was in good hands.

[30:02] James slowly gets up and begins to check himself out in the mirror.

[30:06] James: Amazement. Ho hoo. Lee smokes. Look at my head. I look so different.

[30:18] Hart: Magic, my brother. That'll be 30 cents.

[30:22] James: Thank you. Thank you so much.

[30:25] Hart: He ain't gonna know what to do with himself.

[30:27] James reaches into his pocket and pays Hart. James, so mesmerized by his new look, begins to walk out with the mirror in his hand.

[30:35] Hart: Hold on now, Superstar. You walking out with one of my mirrors.

[30:39] James: Oh, uh, my apologies. I better get going. Thank you for this.

[30:44] Hart hands James his saxophone case. He feels confident. Suddenly, two to three white women join in dancing while admiring his new do. He continues to play while dancing along with them.

[31:03] Shorty: Ha ha ha! That's my nigga.

[31:14] Donnie Betts: I've just heard Destination Freedom production of The Lesson and The Conk by Kenya Mahogany Fashaw. The cast for The Lesson was Stevie Wise, Don Randall, and Latifa Johnson. The narrator was Donnie L. Betts. The cast for The Conk was Don Randall, Stephen Wise, and Donnie L. Betts. Their narrator was Latifa Johnson. This series is based on Richard Durham's Destination Freedom. No Credits Productions LLC, and Donnie L. Betts produces it in the spirit of the original series, sharing the stories of Black, BIPOC, and Indigenous people. Subscribe to our podcast, our Broadway Podcast Network, Spotify, iTunes, Apple, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to leave a comment.

[31:56] Donnie Betts: I'm Donnie L. Betts. Thank you for listening to Destination Freedom, Black Radio Days.

[32:23] Donnie Betts: So this is Donnie Betts, and thank you so much for listening to Destination Freedom Black Radio Days production of The Lesson and The Conk. And there were some subjects that were brought up in those audio dramas that I want to discuss a little bit farther with somebody who has much more knowledge than I do to discuss that.

[32:42] Donnie Betts: We're very honored to have Dr. Brenda J. Allen as our guest as she speaks about critical race theory.

[32:51] Dr. Brenda Allen: Thank you so much. I am honored to join you. I am Professor Emeritus at the University of Colorado, Denver. My PhD is from Howard University. I retired in April 2019 as a Vice Chancellor for Diversity and Inclusion at CU Denver and the Anchorage Medical Campus, where I had a career in scholarship, teaching, service, mentorship, and professional development for organizational communication, social identity, and power, especially focusing on higher education.

[33:25] Dr. Brenda Allen: And I'm very pleased now to be liberated to do that work on my own terms. And that includes having wonderful opportunities like this to talk with you about critical race theory.

[33:38] Donnie Betts: Well, we're excited to have you speak about that. What does it mean? What is critical race theory?

[33:45] Dr. Brenda Allen: I'll start with just saying, you know, CRT stands for, as you've mentioned, critical race theory. And CRT is a perspective that was developed in legal studies, and this perspective asserts that racism embeds United States social institutions within its laws, policies, regulations, rules, and so forth.

[34:12] Dr. Brenda Allen: And because racism embeds these institutions, differential outcomes exist and persist based on one's racial identity. Examples of these social institutions are education systems, the labor market, housing, health care, and the criminal justice system, just to name some, and of course the ways that those overlap and intersect with one another.

[34:40] Dr. Brenda Allen: So basically, critical race theory stresses the systemic nature of racism as the primary source of reproducing racial inequality through laws, policies, regulations, and so forth. And it also critiques how then that institutionalized racism, but structural racism perpetuates a racial caste system or hierarchy in the United States.

[35:09] Dr. Brenda Allen: Another thing to note is that CRT really, really stresses that racism, unlike what some would have us receive from them, racism is not a thing of the past. Not only does the legacy of racist practices persist, but also we are it can and will persist, right? We will continue to have these challenges if we don't actually acknowledge and try to address them.

[35:38] Dr. Brenda Allen: And it has intergenerational implications that lots and lots of statistics can bear out. So it's not just race, but racism foremost, right? So sexuality, gender identity, social class. Moreover, it's not just about black and white people.

[36:01] Dr. Brenda Allen: Well, a lot of people who are doing the pushback. Um, for example, I just bring up one individual that's running for office in Virginia, uh, Glenn Youngkin, uh running for governor. He wants to be part of his platform, he wants to ban critical race theory. He said he feels that it's um, well, you know, because that's a dog whistle uh for a lot of people knowing that.

[36:22] Dr. Brenda Allen: But he said it never was taught in Virginia. Uh you can't see what's happening in Georgia and Florida because they're talking about critical race theory. And as I said before, again, it was never being taught in Virginia. Well, maybe it should have been, because that's part of the problem there. You still have a former governor who was doing uh when he was in college, having gone to um flat parties and blackface.

[36:46] Dr. Brenda Allen: So if it had been taught, maybe we would have a better understanding that all these kind of things are hurtful to uh individuals, as you said, it's not just black and white, it's it's it's gender and so on and so forth. So, what do you think why we've seen so much pushback from individuals like this person that's running for governor?

[37:05] Dr. Brenda Allen: Well, I first of all, um, it intrigues me that people are talking about teaching critical race theory, especially when they're talking about it in K through 12. If you if you really understand critical race theory, it's something that in terms of it actually being taught, actually part of a curriculum, right?

[37:25] Dr. Brenda Allen: As this is a perspective on race in the legal system. Uh typically that's not until undergrad and beyond and in particular areas. So it's not so much, and so that's one of my concerns is that the rhetoric is like don't teach it. It's not so much about teaching CRT as it is about persons who are in within all of these institutions that I named earlier, right?

[37:51] Dr. Brenda Allen: Um, criminal justice system, healthcare, education, labor markets, housing, et cetera, should understand what critical race theory is contending, right? It's much more important that those persons understand these issues and that that guides their behaviors to strive to change the systems, right?

[38:12] Dr. Brenda Allen: To strive, as it's fascinating that some of those same individuals and institutions probably have some kind of commitment to diversity and inclusion, right? And equity. And a way to do that effectively is to acknowledge our racist past, to understand how they embed systems and and also to understand, which is a myth or really a misrepresentation.

[38:36] Dr. Brenda Allen: Critical race theory is not saying individuals are racist. It's much more about understanding how race and racism embed our systems. So I think that a key problem is that people don't seem to even really understand what critical race theory is, as well as what it strives to help us with, right?

[38:44] Dr. Brenda Allen: Strives to help us understand how these how racism embeds systems. Actually, though the um legal scholars and lawyers and others who uh originated critical race theory see it as, you know, if you understand it and then you begin to bring this lens onto your work, that it can also really help us to disrupt um to to really look at laws in a different way and strive to create better and different laws, which we've done.

[39:28] Dr. Brenda Allen: You know, Brown versus the Board of Education would be an example of that. As you said, this concept is more than 40 years old now. And now all of a sudden it's blowing on the scene. Uh, and you it was created by legal scholars. One of the people that I really look up to is Derek Bell, uh Kimberly Crenshaw, uh, and Richard Delgado, mm-hmm.

[39:50] Dr. Brenda Allen: Among others, yes. Yes. And so uh some of it stem from, as you said, uh, other factors, poor financial risk and racial composition of individuals and and and redlining and those kind of things. It's it's it's much bigger than people trying to make it so simple.

[40:09] Donnie Betts: Exactly.

[40:10] Dr. Brenda Allen: I think and and I really appreciate the fact you brought up that it has nothing to do with the younger kids from five to twelve, you know, tw of K25, K through twelve, sorry, KG twelve. It's really more of a academic study once you get an undergrad in grad school.

[40:25] Dr. Brenda Allen: So I think that's where people are really getting that misinformation and speaking about things that they are not fully educated about.

[40:34] Donnie Betts: That's exactly right.

[40:36] Dr. Brenda Allen: And really what I would I would hope is that people who are being educated, you know, who are going to become teachers, who are going to become quite frankly, politicians, healthcare workers, etc., should really understand the role of race and racism, the history within their various areas of um employment, career pathways, and so forth, because again, that's a way that, you know, that is the saying, those who don't know the past are doomed to repeat it.

[41:06] Dr. Brenda Allen: And it's not at all meant to make people feel guilty or some people feel um, you know, ashamed of who they are, uh, you know, that fear that white students will be uh exposed to damaging or self-demoralizing ideas.

[41:20] Dr. Brenda Allen: That's not the goal at all. Rather, it is I found when I was one of my roles, I've been in higher education here in Colorado over 30 years, retired in 2019, and since have been doing a lot of the diversity, equity, and inclusion consulting work. And I found when I was teaching at CU Boulder that many of the white students that I was teaching and helping them to understand these issues and also to be empowered and to be allies, they got very upset that they never knew about any of these kinds of things, not about critical race theory itself, right? But rather about some parts of U.S. history that critical race theory is associated with, which is again it's not saying critical race theory itself, but the very truth about racism, the truth about boarding schools for indigenous folks, right?

The truth about a variety of laws specifically against persons from Asian and Asian American descent. In addition to, of course, black folks and Latinx, Hispanic, et cetera, you know, how law has played a key role throughout history in terms of racism.

[42:32] Donnie Betts: Yes.

[42:33] Dr. Brenda Allen: Yes. So let me ask you about when you see the flood of books in the last two or three years that have been published. And they may have a smission of critical race theory in it. Or they may have a smear smiling talking about racism and that sort of thing. How would you help parents? Now we're talking going back to young kids now. Parents understand this flood that has a lot of what you talk about, kids being upset that they weren't taught about these things, but how do you parents understand that what they need to do and educate themselves to have kind of academic backgrounds to know prepare the kids for when they go into school they may because they may not get these kind of things, you know, it depends on the school they go to.

[43:20] Dr. Brenda Allen: I mean that that is just a powerful and important question and that's an important question for all parents and families, right? Anyone with the sacred responsibility of helping our young, you know, prepare our young folks to be certain kinds of adults and human beings period. So I think it's as is the case for probably any other topic that matters, right? You think, I think, for instance, for some reason about sex education, right? You would want your those you have that sacred responsibility for helping to become human, you know, adult human beings, you would want to have a sense that whatever you're consulting is legitimate, is valid, right? It's thoughtful, is inclusive, et cetera. So I think a key challenge is, as you're stating, the proliferation of materials.

It's hard to know, okay, what should I be, what should he, how should I even be trying to grow and learn. I was just with the healthcare professional, and that person when who found out, you know, what I do, said, oh my gosh, I'm really looking a white person, said, I really want to do something in terms of racial justice, but I don't know where to begin, right? So I think it's very important to strive to identify sources and resources that have been curated by whatever kind of criteria one would use to say this is a legitimate valid source. I think it's always important if one has the time and the resources to go to the original sources, right? So you mentioned some of the earlier legal scholars specifically about CRT.

But again, I'm not so much saying that people need to fully learn and understand CRT as much as the notion of racism, you know, what it's primarily saying. So it there's no easy answer except to do the due diligence to try to find trusted resources based on persons whom, and this is tricky too, right? Persons whom you trust. They may not know. And that that to me is like the crux of all of this is that I'm seeing in so much rhetoric, seeing in so much of ways that people are pushing back on a variety of issues that people aren't using critical thinking, that people aren't, you know, when I see people hear people say things, I was at a certain meeting the other day with some candidates who were asked this question about CRT.

And I said, really, the question isn't should we be teaching CRT in schools? The question is, do you understand CRT? And if you understand it, how might it be relevant, right? In terms of how you would perform your role. That's what I'd rather see. I think I drifted from your original question.

[46:09] Donnie Betts: No, that's okay. That's cover it. That's beautiful because when you talk about that, you talk about topics that should be discussed, and that's racially schools, underfunding of majority black and Latino school district to support.

[46:22] Dr. Brenda Allen: That's exactly right. Those are the kind of things that are. And that and that often is framed in structures and systems and embedded laws and so forth that themselves are racist, right? They are racist. And, you know, with striving for racial equity, all we're striving for, and it's a big all, is that you could no longer predict outcomes based on race, based on gender, based on the neighborhood you live in, right, based on the school you went to. That's what equity, racial equity is seeking. And right now it doesn't exist. The numbers show that. And anyone who says those numbers are wrong or it's just about one individual or individual here and there, I don't think they're really being honest with themselves.

And perhaps they are pushing back against fear and a variety of other kinds of emotions. But if it's for folks who really want us to achieve the phenomenal, you know, goal of you know, liberty and justice for all in the United States, this notion of race just has to be dealt with. And the good news is, back to your earlier question, there is a wealth of resources and approaches that can have where you can have critical conversations, where you can acquire strategies and techniques where you can become deepen one's commitment and understand that it's gonna take time and effort. Understand that if you're not feeling uncomfortable, you're probably not growing, right? Of understanding that we're all raced.

So when we talk about race, this is not just for black people or black indigenous and other people of color. It's for all of us, and that ultimately we all can benefit and can again become that which this nation has asserted itself to be for a long time.

[48:19] Donnie Betts: And I think what I see, and thank you so much for that answer, it's beautiful. Some teachers now are afraid that they won't be able to teach things like trail of tears, the civil war, the race movement or the southern freedom movement. Because I think if they teach it and reproach the subject, then they're going to be called racist. You know. I just think this this to stifle our children one more time, you know, and not just black children, white children, indigenous, and children. All of our children, children. So these curriculums have to be more open to that. So I'd say with the politicians and the policymakers, they really need to educate themselves rather than speaking in generic terms or anecdotal terms about something they've heard or read or something like that, or somebody has a louder voice in a council meeting or a louder voice in a school board meeting or bring it up. You know, and I think that's what people re all they're asking is can you just be better listeners? I think that's what I would like to tell people. Just be a better listener and educate yourself.

[49:32] Dr. Brenda Allen: Definitely, yes. And and right. So one thing that's that I've I noticed is that sometimes people seem to be conflating culturally responsive teaching, which is also CRT, right, with critical race theory. And so culturally responsive teaching, again, the good news is what we're talking about here, where we are now in the world and how many folks like me have been doing this kind of work and thinking about it and processing it and striving to have empathy for everybody while also trying to move everybody along, you know, in terms of thinking about things like privilege, advantage, disadvantage, oppression, et cetera. The key thing is that there is a way to do it effectively. And that um, and I you know, I would be remiss if I didn't say people ought to be concerned that some of the ways that these subjects might be taught could be more harmful than beneficial if people haven't been, and here's where systems owe it to everyone within those systems, not only to hold them accountable, right?

For instance, in education, holding educators and staff and everyone else, right, accountable for culturally responsive teaching or culturally affirming ways that you engage with communities. They also deserve to receive the best of professional development and education so they can bring those best practices into those situations. So that you know, and understand that all of us are have been socialized in ways that if we don't address these and if we don't strive to use the best practices, what we're going to do is perpetuate and deepen, right, the divide that already exists. So there's a lot at stake for everybody.

[51:29] Donnie Betts: Yes. And I think you put it um just the way it should be broached, and that is it is not easy, it's complex. It takes deep diving on everybody's part. You can't have a simple answer. Everybody, you know, unfortunately our society we live in now wants a quick and easy answer to everything.

[51:46] Dr. Brenda Allen: Yes, right. Three ways to blah blah blah, right? I had someone contact me to say, come in and do implicit bias training for my whole staff. And I said, tell me about, you know, are you a learning organization already? My approach to this work is systemic, strategic, and sustainable. So that no, I'm not gonna do a one and done. That's not fair to any ever anybody.

[52:09] Donnie Betts: Yes.

[52:10] Dr. Brenda Allen: Yes. And I think that's what they usually like say, everything everybody wants a quick fix.

[52:15] Donnie Betts: Mm-hmm.

[52:16] Dr. Brenda Allen: Well, for me, this has been fantastic. It's not a quick fix. We'll have you on to talk some more about this. But it's a great companion for the two shows that people will be able to listen to, and that's the lesson, which is very it's just what it says the lesson that we all can learn something and the conflict deals with identity.

[52:35] Donnie Betts: Definitely.

[52:38] Dr. Brenda Allen: Yeah, and the subtle waves and lit and you know, read between the lines, listen with a with discerning ears. That's why I said become better listeners. And engage with a sense of curiosity. And strive to have dialogue rather than debate.

[52:53] Donnie Betts: Yes, yes. I always say discussions, conversations, because that's that's really what it's about. We have conversation. We know we have a cup of coffee, a cup of tea, or whatever. Let's have some conversation about it. And not, you know, you may disagree and you may agree to disagree. That's fine. You know, that's where we that's what we can come to, some kind of conclusion if we can have those disagreements, and then maybe we can reach a common ground, but just don't be inflexible that you can't. And and be receptive to learning something you didn't know, you didn't understand. And by the way, of course, these kinds of conversations, I think are they can be particularly powerful and productive when they are informed, right?

[53:35] Dr. Brenda Allen: Yeah.

[53:37] Donnie Betts: Dr. Brenda Allen, thank you so much for joining us on Destination Freedom Black Radio Days. It's truly an honor. And I know how busy your schedule is, so I will just appreciate the time that you're taking with us.

[53:48] Dr. Brenda Allen: Thank you.

[53:49] Donnie Betts: You are very welcome, Donnie Betts. Thank you for all that you have done and continue to do. I really appreciate and value. You are a treasure here in the state of Colorado and beyond.

[54:01] Donnie Betts: Thank you. I appreciate that.

[54:02] Dr. Brenda Allen: All right, then you take good care.

[54:05] Donnie Betts: Okay, you do the same.

[54:06] Dr. Brenda Allen: All right, talk to you soon.

[54:07] Donnie Betts: Okay.

[54:08] Dr. Brenda Allen: All right, bye-bye.

[54:11] Donnie Betts: That concludes this episode of Destination Freedom Black Radio Days. Our producer director, Danielle Betts. Support for Destination Freedom is provided by the Bon P. Stanford Foundation, the ULIPAN's fund of the Denver Foundation, Arts and Society, and Karen and Johnny Klein. Destination Freedom Black Radio Days is produced by Danielle Betts. The series is remixed by Maurice Smith, aka Reese. Make sure you check us out at nocredits.com and pick up our podcast wherever you get your podcasts. iTunes, Radio Public, Spotify, etc. Follow us at Twitter at Donnie Betts, hashtag No Credits Productions, LLC, hashtag BlackRadio Days, hashtag Destination Freedom BlockRadio Days. Thank you for listening.