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[0:20] Robert W. Schneider: Hi, I'm Robert W. Schneider, and welcome to Fifty Key Stage Musicals, the podcast, a companion piece to the Routledge Press publication, Fifty Key Stage Musicals, which is available for purchase by going to Routledge.com or clicking the link below in today's show description.

[0:35] Robert W. Schneider: Today's episode focuses on chapter 48, the 2015 production of FUN HOME.

[0:41] Robert W. Schneider: And with us today is the author of that chapter, Courtney Laine-Self.

[0:46] Robert W. Schneider: Courtney is a director and choreographer interested in creating new work in the musical theater genre that incorporates non-realistic and abstract theatrical techniques, as well as developing methods on how to responsibly and with innovation revive Broadway-style musicals.

[1:02] Robert W. Schneider: She directed the regional theater premiere of FUN HOME at Millbrook Playhouse, holds an MFA in directing from Southern Illinois University and a BFA in music theater from The Hartt School.

[1:12] Robert W. Schneider: Courtney, I am so glad that you're with us today.

[1:15] Courtney Laine-Self: Thrilled to be here, Rob, thrilled to be here.

[1:22] Robert W. Schneider: But my first question for you is why is FUN HOME a key musical?

[1:29] Courtney Laine-Self: Particular kind of category is that it's the first depiction of a lesbian character as the protagonist in a Broadway musical. And actually, I feel as though that I think between yourself and me throughout the process, like that language developed even further, and the language of exactly what FUN HOME was doing. I think that was sort of what a watershed was developed as my research went along and as the chapter evolved. You know, I think where we got to is that it's a first, it's the first depiction of a Butch lesbian as a protagonist in a Broadway musical. That and to be a little bit more specific, that the plot sort of centers itself around the character's identity as a lesbian and evolution, you know, therein and certainly for FUN HOME, it was throughout all three sort of stages of Alison's character depiction.

And I know that when we were in our initial stages of looking at this show, you know, one of the things that we had hit upon and you cover so brilliantly I feel in the chapter is the character of Celie in The Color Purple, a musical that predates FUN HOME a little bit. But can you talk a little bit about Celie's character and why FUN HOME is going to be the primary focus of this conversation?

[2:56] Courtney Laine-Self: Yeah. And I so there were a few drafts of the chapter before The Color Purple even entered into the picture. And it was so there was a and I thought this was interesting and it's actually I think the process of getting the chapter to where it was and bringing Celie into the talk, the Celie and The Color Purple into the talk is sort of like a meta representation of what happened bigger picture with the sort of like critical commentary around The Color Purple versus the critical commentary around FUN HOME. So, you know, there was all this research that I was doing. And it didn't even enter my mind to sort of question the premise of the chapter, which is that FUN HOME was the first Broadway musical with a lesbian protagonist.

And there was a moment, and I think it was in the editing process when you had asked for more contextualization of other musicals that have happened since FUN HOME that include lesbian representation that may have been inspired by or been FUN HOME was a boon for that progress for those musicals. I started doing the research and The Color Purple started coming up for me. And I went, wait, wait, wait. Why haven't I been seeing this in the research? Why haven't I been, and I honestly didn't know The Color Purple all that well. I knew it all right, but I didn't know it all that well. In the research, I of course not only looked into the musical, but I also read the novel and did a lot of looking into Alice Walker and what Alice Walker said about the character.

So, and just side note, I think a thing that was so fascinating for me when sort of looking at these two musicals was that, you know, source material for Fun Home New Musical was really going back to Alison Bechdel and the graphic, the memoir graphic novel that she wrote. And The Color Purple, of course, the musical has, you know, the Pulitzer Prize-winning novel by Alice Walker. And so there's this source material in both cases, which was interesting. Celie, the thing about Celie as a character, I think there's a couple different considerations that make it a nuanced conversation about whether or not Celie should be considered the first lesbian protagonist in a musical, is that Celie never, first of all, self-identifies as a lesbian anywhere in the musical, nor does she anywhere in the novel.

Self-identification is not necessarily the only determining factor of what a character's sexual identity may or may not be, especially considering the historical context like of when The Color Purple was set, but even like the historical context of when the novel came out or even when the musical came out in 2005. The novel came out in the 80s, the musical came out in 2005. Lesbianism in general has been villainized, it has been criminalized, it has been marginalized. It wouldn't be shocking for a character and or the people who depict those characters to have a vested interest in not having the character self-identify as a lesbian necessarily. But so there is that as a consideration. Alice Walker and everything I could find also never identified Celie as a lesbian and spoke very specifically sort of about the fluidity of Celie's understanding of her own sexual identity, which I think is important.

But also there's the plot consideration. And I think this was another major thing of where we got to. So there's a quote a reviewer, a writer named, and I might get his, I might pronounce his last name wrong, David Levisley, wrote an article, and one of the things he said was that FUN HOME quote is unashamedly about a lesbian individual and her personal experience with issues related to her sexuality. So there's this notion that FUN HOME, specifically in the plot, in the action of the play, it is about Alison's understanding of her sexual identity. Whereas Celie's sexual identity is not of primary interest to the plot and to the action. It is very clearly a part of her journey. But, you know, the Color Purple really is about Celie's ability to sort of find love for herself, sort of self-love and identity as a much broader notion, what identity is for Celie.

But, you know, like I said before, it's obviously a very nuanced conversation. And the fact is, even though I think ultimately we came back to FUN HOME still holds the place. FUN HOME still holds the place of having the first lesbian protagonist, the critical context and conversation around The Color Purple never talked about Celie's queerness in any way. Racism and misogyny were largely spoken about, but the queerness was really sort of relegated to the background, not across the board, but primarily. And so I still think it is important to bring up in the conversation.

[8:46] Robert W. Schneider: Why do you think that male-identifying individuals, gay characters, seem to have been populating the musicals since the 1980s, but it's taken a longer time for female-identifying lesbians to get a place on the stage? Why is it okay for the men, but it takes longer for the women?

[9:07] Courtney Laine-Self: This goes back to intersectionality. You know, I mean, all of these topics are complex and exactly, you know, where they fit into kind of the societal and cultural milieu as well, I think matters. I think there was a rise in sort of gay male awareness in the 80s. It became a part of the cultural conversation in a way that art certainly tends to precede and reflect back after. So, like as things are happening, you'll start to see this stuff come up sort of artistically in the cultural conversation in the zeitgeist. And why it's taken a long time for lesbianism to be centered or to at least be more centered. I wouldn't necessarily call lesbianism centered right now. It's still left of centered. You know, I do think it's a question of intersectionality. And so we're combining sort of sexism and misogyny into that as well. That the fact that it's concerning women specifically, you know, I think comes into play.

[10:13] Robert W. Schneider: What do you think the impact is of FUN HOME for those in the audience, especially lesbians who are seeing themselves reflected for the first time on stage? And I know you had a lot of this material in your chapter.

[10:26] Courtney Laine-Self: Yeah, and actually, and I want to back up just a second to comment on what you were saying and then remind me, and we'll come back to this. Another thought that I was having in relation to the question you had asked before about why lesbianism has been brought up and certainly been depicted on stages later, you know, I and the intersectionality, I think it's also about who's writing the stories. You know what I mean? So like Lisa Kron and Jeanine Tesori were the first all-female team to win. You know what I mean? So like there aren't a lot of females behind the table in general. There's some crazy stat. And because I'm a director I pay more attention to these stats, but like there's some crazy stat that like five percent of women on Broadway are directors.

And professionally, like nationally for just professional theater in general something like 20% of women are directors. So I mean, and I think the same goes for playwrights who are being produced as well, so certainly at higher levels. So I think it is also about who is telling the story. So for FUN HOME, and we can bring The Color Purple to this as well, these were both, I mean, Alison Bechdel is a lesbian and she wrote a story about herself. That's why the character showed up, you know, and I think that's also why people had a hard time denying its sort of authenticity, you know. And even for The Color Purple, The Color Purple isn't specifically autobiographical to Alice Walker, but the character Celie is slightly autobiographical to her.

It's been talked about and Alice Walker herself identifies on that sort of like spectrum of fluid sexuality. Alice Walker, much like she depicted Celie, has said, "I don't want to" or "I don't like labels," and I think to label yourself limits a person, you know, etc., etc. So these, you know, the character that she wrote, Celie, is very much like her. So I think it has a lot to do with who is telling the story. And maybe it's not just that lesbianism in general was started to be accepted culturally later, but literally women being in charge of writing the stories at a much larger scale or proportion at a proportionately higher percentage was also happening later.

[12:41] Robert W. Schneider: Thinking about you had said like what some of the reception had been.

[12:45] Courtney Laine-Self: Yes, because I know you conducted a lot of personal interviews with people. And can you tell us about that? And if you learned anything about the show you did not know until you started talking to these individuals.

[12:55] Courtney Laine-Self: Right. And I think this is important to state. And so I think it matters, you know, I think my intersection with this piece coincides with my directing that first regional production of it. And being in the town where Alison Bechdel grew up. So it was like this rare dramaturgical opportunity that I, you know, we can talk more about later. But I, you know, I think that's my entry point into, you know, really knowing and loving this piece and really looking into all of these kind of dramaturgical and sort of research concerns.

[13:52] Courtney Laine-Self: Um so yes, so for me with this chapter, um, it was important that uh to me, not that I wasn't reading about and not that I, you know, I can't look at the the the show at FUN HOME and think, you know, obviously this was a huge deal uh for lesbian representation on stage, but it's not personal to me in that way.

[14:17] And so speaking with um lesbian women and hearing what their reactions um to the piece was upon first seeing it.

[14:27] And I was generally speaking to, you know, honestly, Rob, I would have been interested to speak to lesbian women who are older because I spoke to people that I think are kind of my age and younger, so mid-30s and younger, so that it felt like FUN HOME was kind of a part of their uh young young, either either teenage or sort of young adult development as well.

[14:50] Um, but I would be interested to talk to people who are more like, say, Alison Bechdel's age.

[14:55] You know, it was it was just to generally the consensus was finally they were able to see themselves on stage.

[15:04] There was uh one woman that I talked to who said she brought her mom and turning, she she she said that she turned during the production and looked at her mom at a pivotal time, you know, maybe it was during "Changing My Major" or "Ring of Keys" or something like that, and looked at her mom and saw what what she said felt like for the first time her mom maybe having a different kind of understanding of sort of who her daughter is, um, and that it was uh so impactful and meaningful to her that there was something that could help kind of like um illustrate this to her mom or uh help, you know, like round out a conversation or an understanding with her mom.

[15:46] Um I just actually randomly stumbled upon an article that wasn't even specifically about FUN HOME.

[15:54] I was searching something else, and so the internet was doing a funny thing of like paying attention to keywords.

[15:59] Yes.

[15:59] But uh I found an article that was like 30 stories about when you knew you were a lesbian, like the moment you knew you were a lesbian.

[16:07] And there was there was one that was like, I I saw a video from "Changing My Major," the musical, the you know, from the musical FUN HOME, the song "Changing My Major."

[16:17] And that girl, they just what they wrote was that girl, and they met Emily Skeggs, who plays Medium Alison.

[16:23] She said, and that girl walked out on stage in underwear and taught like socks pulled up, and I thought, I'm a lesbian.

[16:29] You know, so there's this, there's this notion of like finally being like that.

[16:33] It's speaking to a generation of young women who are in the process of coming out and and figuring out who they are and seeing that depiction on stage was like a part, like a pivotal sort of seminal part of that understanding of their sexuality, and that is both inspirational and at the same time heartbreaking.

[16:54] Like I think about the generations and generations past of women who just didn't have that.

[17:01] They just didn't have the opportunity to see themselves that that part of themselves depicted in any way.

[17:09] There's a fantastic documentary uh called Before Stonewall, which was made, I think in the early 1980s, and it discusses how uh queer individuals, but especially lesbians had little zero representation and this feeling of alienation and isolation.

[17:29] So it just warms my heart to know that an individual who was watching this musical realized they're not alone.

[17:36] And I think that's the power of musical theater.

[17:39] Yeah, there was there was something there was something that Beth, I was reading something else Beth Malone wrote recently too.

[17:43] And Beth Malone was was the original um Old Alison, as she's as she's uh affectionately referred to as.

[18:42] Um, in a in a more mainstream and and visible way, and in a way that doesn't, as you say, that doesn't inherently contain the tone of ostracization and the tone of isolation is inspiring.

[19:00] You are in a really special position, and the reason that we wanted you to write this this chapter is because you got to direct the regional premiere of this wonderful musical.

[19:14] And if it doesn't get any better than that, in the hometown of Alison Bechdel, and if it doesn't get any better than that, Alison Bechdel showed up and gave and gave you the stamp of approval on your production.

[19:27] Tell me a little bit about the process of creating this story right in the backyard.

[19:33] You know, I directed this at a at a place called Millbrook Playhouse.

[19:36] Um, and then, you know, uh FUN HOME came around, and and I think it was first of all, it was a really big deal that Millbrook was able to produce it.

[19:45] Millbrook is in fact, you know, a a small, a small summer stock theater.

[19:50] I think it embodies really the the heart and soul of what Summerstock Theater is and really what regional theater is in in many ways.

[19:58] Um and so I was thrilled when this happened.

[20:01] So, yeah, so Millbrook is in a town called Mill Hall, Pennsylvania, and 10 minutes down the road, um, like a road that is directly adjacent to the theater, like boom, it's right off the theater.

[20:14] You go, you go 10 minutes maybe down that road, and you're in Beach Creek, which is Alison Bechdel's hometown.

[20:19] You take a you take a left-hand turn off that highway.

[20:22] The highway that that Alison sings about in um "Telephone Wire" in that in that song, and you know, um, that that specific highway is like, you know, literally the highway that is mentioned.

[20:35] Um and so you turn off of that, and there's the the FUN HOME, there's the funeral home, and you you drive like one minute down the block, and there's the the house that they lived in as well, that like grand huge sort of like gothic uh architecture uh house that that Alison grew up in.

[20:54] Um and so it's all right there.

[20:58] I have never I have and I don't know, I don't know what your thoughts are, like as a as a director as well, Rob.

[21:04] Like, like I have never dramaturgically been in a position like that.

[21:09] Like, like just nuts.

[21:11] And it's it's not just the fact that it was so close, it was also Millbrook itself.

[21:15] Like, if you I wish I I should have pulled up the page in in the graphic novel, but there is a there's a um a page of uh what do you call like one of the drawings that's square, you know, there's a little square that Alison Bechdel drew of Millbrook.

[21:28] Like there is because you know, it was young Alison as a as a child watching her mother, Helen play a leading role in in, and she she played leading roles in in multiple shows.

[21:37] She literally performed at Millbrook.

[21:40] Bruce was um on the board at Millbrook Playhouse, so like even the theater itself is connected.

[21:46] Uh so I was able to interview um family members um that could tell me that talked to me about Bruce that said kind of you know what he was like.

[21:59] I I so I talked to Bruce's sister, who was one of the first people I talked to upon coming into town.

[22:04] Yeah, it was it was um incredible.

[22:08] Uh and I mean there's another story that I I think is interesting.

[22:12] So anywhere from Bruce's sister, who like totally like uh grew up with Bruce, like like knows it's so personal, you know.

[22:18] Um, but but then also like I was at Sheetz.

[22:20] So if anybody knows Pennsylvania, so like Sheetz, there's a Sheetz like in walking distance from Millbrook, and that's where like everybody at the theater hangs out and where we get our food.

[22:28] So I would just station.

[22:30] It's a gas station.

[22:31] That's right, sorry, for anybody non-Pennsylvanians.

[22:34] Um it's uh it's a gas station, it has food too.

[22:37] You go in and you can order stuff.

[22:38] So anyway, so we're there and we're waiting in line for food.

[22:41] And uh just a guy, I was a local, was like, Hey, so you from out of town?

[22:46] And I was like, Yeah, I'm here, I'm in directing.

[22:48] And I told him, and he goes, Oh, uh, Bruce was my high school teacher.

[22:54] I was like, awesome.

[22:55] What was he like?

[22:56] And he goes, he was great, he was great, he was so good.

[22:58] He was a really good teacher.

[22:59] Like, and that that was the conversation, but I was like, you know, just like mind exploding of the amount of people.

[23:05] Um, I think another standout was we um actually the the actor who played Bruce, um was kind enough and generous enough to rent out the house, not the funeral home.

[23:22] Yeah, did you know this, Rob?

[23:23] Did I have a chance?

[23:24] No, no, I didn't know so.

[23:26] Um he rented out because um, so the Bechdel family no longer owns it.

[23:30] Um Mennonites own it, and they rent it out.

[23:35] And we rented out the entire house, and it's massive.

[23:41] I mean, it's huge.

[23:42] It has like there are like 25 beds in there, and the reason why I know this is because we slept like the entire cast and crew.

[23:48] We like slumber partied, and like it was like whoever wants to stay can stay.

[23:52] And so we like had beds for everybody.

[23:54] It was nuts, but we rented it out.

[23:58] Um, and for for uh I think two days or three days, because I think it was two nights.

[24:04] Um, and we I we held rehearsals in the house.

[24:08] So, like there's one um song, it's a it's the trio.

[24:13] God, I think it might just be called the trio, I don't remember what it's called, but it's Helen at the piano, uh-huh, and it's the three kids sitting in front of the TV in in in like an adjacent room, and then in the library, another adjacent room was um Bruce and uh I also forget because this is the character that's like Bobby, Jeremy, Ron, and they have nine different roles, yes.

[24:38] Yes, that it's that character of like the the guy that like does work that that Bruce had a bit of a um a fling with sort of in the musical.

[24:48] Um so those two in the library, and there's this beautiful song they sing.

[24:53] And so what we did was we rolled an upright piano into the hallway, and I I put each of the actors in their rooms that they're supposed to be in, and we literally rehearsed that song in the actual sort of like architectural spatial configuration that it was original, like that originally happened in.

[25:11] And I mean, we were it felt like this.

[25:14] Um it just felt magical.

[25:17] It just was really incredible.

[25:20] What did you come away with after spending a night in this house that you then implemented in the rehearsal process?

[25:27] Um, you know, I think for us, I you know, I think I I first of all, I think there's the the level of like, you know, whenever you're trying to put up a show, in every rehearsal room, I'm trying to make magic.

[25:44] Like I'm always trying to create magic.

[25:45] And and what that means is different and specific to each production, and you can't force it to happen, and it doesn't always happen, and you gotta try to stay present and figure out the unique, you know, sort of opportunities presented for each piece.

[25:58] That that was the magic with that one, you know.

[26:01] It was just magical to be able to do that.

[26:04] But I and I think the reason why is because as if we didn't know, it's like we sort of intellectually knew how important the show is, was um sort of cerebrally.

[26:17] And I think what happened was being there in that house, as one of the things there were, I think there were many things that got us to this point, but there was this like experiential visceral level of understanding the importance of the story, the the tragedy of this story, the um, you know, the heartbreaking nature of this story, and and that it's not just a story.

[26:42] This was somebody's freaking actual life.

[26:47] Um, you know, it's not just something that people can relate to because people can relate to it.

[26:52] People can't, it doesn't need to be a real story to be an awesome story, but the fact is it was real, and so I think we felt the gravity.

[27:00] I think there was something about really not having any um wavering on the gravity of this story and the importance of this story being told, and and and arguably specifically the importance of this story being told in this town to these people.

[27:17] And what was the reaction from the town watching somebody they knew now being portrayed by someone else singing and dancing and reliving their death, which was a suicide, correct?

[27:32] Right.

[27:32] Courtney Laine-Self: And it was a suicide. I don't know that it was legally declared a suicide, like I think legally on the death certificate, it was declared an accident. But you know, as far as Alison Bechdel is concerned, as far as her as an individual, but also the sort of character of her writing the graphic novel, there is no debate that it was a suicide. But I, you know, what is interesting, so just with that specifically with the town, I did talk with people and I mean I talked with the person who called 911. Oh, yeah, I talked with the person who saw it happen, who saw Bruce step out into the street and get hit and called 911 and was there. Like I spoke to her. You know, it wasn't ever my intention. I wasn't going in and being like an investigative journalist.

Like I wasn't trying to, you know, so like whenever I did talk with people, I I wasn't, I I I had to, I was um, I didn't need to try to get to the bottom of what they really thought about some of these things that were in fact personal and difficult and tragic and private. You know what I mean? Like to a certain extent, what their feelings are is private. Alison put the story out, and that's her right to do because it is her story. She gets to do what she wants with it. But other people have their stories as well, right? Like they have their memories and experiences as well. And I didn't feel like I didn't want to pry. That's I didn't want, you know, I I wanted to ask and whatever they were willing to divulge.

But um, it was for those personal, like very sort of difficult. It was left a little abstract and unclear as to exactly whether or not somebody felt like it was a suicide or it was an accident, as to exactly whether or not somebody felt that Bruce was gay or that he wasn't gay. He just sometimes, you know, I don't I don't know what that viewpoint, you know, sometimes messed around with men or like I don't that was left very ambiguous to me from person to person, which I think is also a part of FUN HOME. I think that comes out in the graphic novel too, the town's understanding of what that story was as well. And I and I want to make sure to say, because essentially what you asked me was, you know, what was the reception?

At least of the people who came to see the show, the reception was quite positive. The reception was uplifting, and I think that you know, I spoke with a couple people, and I don't want to put words in their mouth once again, but the and it's you know, at this point it's a memory for me too, right? Like I'm four years away from this. But what I sort of remember in my head about it was that there was a part two of like for some of the people that I some of the people in town that I spoke to about, there was a sense of feeling seen in a certain way, like the town, the community, feeling seen in a certain way. Alison, and maybe I'll read this because it's actually isn't in the chapter, it was in an earlier draft.

So, as you mentioned before, we invited Alison to come see, and she came to a performance and she did a talk back afterwards. She graciously did a talk back afterwards, and so you know, community members were were whoever was there was able to ask her questions, and she was just a complete and total class act. But she said, so in an interview or in a uh yeah, in an interview afterwards, she said of that experience of going back to Millbrook to see the show done, this was her quote it was super surreal. I was a little afraid. I felt anxious, like, oh my god, I'm going to see all these people and they're going to be pissed off with me. Because there were people in my hometown who did not think FUN HOME was a good thing.

And then when the interviewer asked how it went, Alison replied, there was this great warmth that I just hadn't expected. I had thought I was going back to 1977, but the place has changed. It has evolved. Um is what she sort of took away from that. So I think probably Alison's thoughts about it, Trump mine, like times a million. You know, what a wonderful gift that the two of you have given one another in your very brief interaction on this particular story. I think that's just so what what a gift to cherish. What a gift to cherish. And the reason why we asked you to come and tell the story of this show.

[32:26] Robert W. Schneider: What doors did FUN HOME open for subsequent shows? If we wouldn't have had FUN HOME, we wouldn't have had fill in the blank. And I know we're still very close to FUN HOME in terms of a historical perspective. So we might not still see the full effect of it just yet, but immediately what might come to your mind.

[32:47] Courtney Laine-Self: Yeah, I um, you know, the things that I could see, and I and I also want to say that, you know, essentially what I examined and researched was really like stuff that's been brought to the Broadway stage. And I and I I want to like give a disclaimer, which is that um Broadway is a good sort of uh like kind of litmus test for things that pervade the sort of like social consciousness and awareness of like you know, theater that kind of continues on. But the fact of the matter is, like I don't I don't actually think that Broadway necessarily represents the best of American theater. I think I think it might. I think I think it might. But I think it's important to say that, especially with when you're talking about, you know what this book is talking about this 50 key musicals it is talking about these musicals where it was the first time that something happened the first time something happens is never on Broadway.

The first time as I talked about before like there you know with with lesbian representation in in sort of performance art it was represented you know a bunch before and you know but on the fringes and and on the periphery and in the margins. So I just want to I just want to like say that that I didn't what I'm you know what I'm talking about here is not including many many many other things.

[34:03] Robert W. Schneider: Oh no of course you know the focus of this book is the commercial Broadway theater.

[34:09] Courtney Laine-Self: Right. Oh my gosh yes I think we could name hundreds of shows that yeah so um so I just wanted to say that but you know there was um the prom, which I think is uh uh has you know the movie came out last year and so I think there's more people who have been able to see it since you know the the pandemic now is messing up our ability to like to continue to see some of these shows uh the prom obviously the the plot is centered around a young um lesbian who is I I I think she's coming out I don't know to what extent like her realization of her sexual identity is a part of the plot or whether it's just about her being able to come out to her town. I I sort of forget. I mean, for her, when the show starts, she's out and she's proud and wants to take her girlfriend to prom. The girlfriend is the one who hasn't told anybody.

[35:12] Robert W. Schneider: That's right.

[35:12] Courtney Laine-Self: That's right. That's right. Um, so obviously the arc of the story centers around a young girl's sexual identity as a lesbian. So that is, you know, I think I think FUN HOME has directly impacted our ability to sort of tell that story and to tell it as uh, you know, well, what I was gonna say is what's interesting about the prom is the prom sort of marries uh to a certain extent subject matter of FUN HOME to a certain extent, but also like the stylistic tone um of other activist musicals, LGBTQ activist musicals, which FUN HOME isn't one like that. What I'm talking about are like say uh it it has the tone of of Hairspray, which is sort of like an activism musical as well, but it also has the tone of maybe more gay male musicals like um La Cage and like Kinky Boots, so tone-wise, uh there's a real difference there. And um, and so I think I actually think the prom is an interesting sort of marriage of of both of those um aspects. Uh interestingly.

[36:27] Robert W. Schneider: Um so there's the prom, and then there's Head Over Heels, which you know, Head Over Heels is looking at a lot of different things.

[36:36] Courtney Laine-Self: Um, but there is an Head Over Heels is sort of the one that I I know the least, but I think that there is like there's a a central or like the the principal couple is a lesbian couple.

[36:48] Robert W. Schneider: Yes.

[36:48] Courtney Laine-Self: Um, yeah. So there's there's Head Over Heels, and then there's Jagged Little Pill, which um Jagged Little Pill has Frankie and Joe as a same-sex couple. I I think Frankie is a lesbian, and I think Joe is.

[37:11] Robert W. Schneider: No, Joe's a lesbian and Frankie is bisexual.

[37:13] Courtney Laine-Self: That's what it is. Yes, yes. Um, and you know, I think that has some some similar kind of subject matter. That it it's, you know, it mo it most closely aligns itself to medium Alison's arc. Actually, most of these do. Interestingly, that that seems to be the I here's a new thought. Here's a new thought I'm having in this moment, Rob. It seems like a lot of the representation is about this kind of teenage, maybe you know, 15-year-olds, to like maybe 22, 23, 24-year-olds in like their understanding of their sexual identity. It does seem like we're depicting lesbianism within that frame, still where FUN HOME is really um unique in its representation of lesbianism, is in that like old Alison is isn't is a middle-aged woman.

So she was, I think she was 40 or 40. I should know this because it's like really in the material. It's been a couple years, but she was in her 40s. Oh, she was the age that her dad was when he died, whatever age that was. Yeah, that's that's why it was like I've been thinking a lot about my dad. But it's a woman, um, essentially middle-aged woman, lesbian who is being shown on stage, and also small Alison, right? Like a 10 year old, a nine or 10 year old girl who's like coming to terms with her identity as a lesbian. That also, I mean, that is like a that still is this like we still don't talk about lesbianism in terms of you know that that very, very young understanding. Um, so you know, I think most of these things are uh do fall in sort of like uh being compared to the medium Alison storyline.

[39:03] Robert W. Schneider: That's such an interesting point that we keep it always uh, or most lesbian stories we see go into that middle slot.

[39:10] Courtney Laine-Self: It's like it's the time when you're allowed, and this is where like we're it's not like we've like solved it. It's not like we're like fully accepting of lesbianism all across the board in all corners of society. So it's like what we're seeing right now commercially, what we're seeing is a an uh an age range in a person's life when they're allowed to be and they should be sort of experimental. Um, and so like maybe we're more like as a like a commercially societal notion, there's something more narrative, yeah, about about having the conversation within that particular time frame. I still think it's rather taboo to talk about old lesbians and young lesbians, and so all you music theater writers out there listen, and this is that's there's your call to arms.

[40:01] Robert W. Schneider: I absolutely love that. What a what a great way to end this conversation. Writers, you have work to do.

[40:08] Courtney Laine-Self: You have work to do.

[40:09] Robert W. Schneider: Very true. Courtney, thank you so much for joining us today. Um, the chapter is absolutely brilliant as a member of the queer community. I thank you for your sensitivity and for your dedication to telling our story. Uh, your production of FUN HOME was absolutely fantastic. And when you say that not all the great things are on Broadway, I would agree that FUN HOME is probably one of those. Your production was a brilliant thing that deserved to be seen by many, many, many people.

[40:39] Courtney Laine-Self: Yes, thank you.

[40:40] Robert W. Schneider: Folks, please make sure to purchase a copy of Fifty Key Stage Musicals by visiting Routledge.com or by clicking in today's show description. If you want to learn more about FUN HOME, please also review the links in the below description.