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[0:01] Tim Rice: Hello, this is Tim Rice.

[0:03] Tim Rice: Welcome to episode 14 of Get On to My Cloud.

[0:17] Tim Rice: By early 1977, the album, or LP, long playing record, that Andrew and I had made of Evita had been very successful in the United Kingdom and elsewhere, and the single of "Don't Cry for Me, Argentina" by Julie Covington, even more so.

[0:33] Tim Rice: As our Jesus Christ Superstar album had been so successful in the United States seven years before, leading to a Broadway show, we hoped for a repeat in America.

[0:44] Tim Rice: This did not happen.

[0:46] Tim Rice: The U.S. promotional campaign for the Evita studio album was an absolute disaster.

[0:52] Tim Rice: No one in the American Record Company seemed to have a clue about the concept, or about what we were trying to do, or about Eva Perón, or even much of a clue about us.

[1:01] Tim Rice: The contrast between MCA in 1970 and 1977, at least as far as we were concerned, could not have been more marked.

[1:10] Tim Rice: Musical chairs were a bigger feature than usual of the music business in the 70s in the U.S., with top executives coming and going almost as quickly as many of their recording artists.

[1:22] Tim Rice: Virtually all of the MCA Records team in America who delivered superstars so brilliantly had departed, and none of the new top bananas had been around in those far-off superstar days.

[1:34] Tim Rice: When we went over there in 1970, as complete unknowns, we were nevertheless treated like Led Zeppelin from the moment an MCA limo met us at JFK.

[1:44] Tim Rice: This time around, as we lurched through a few second division radio stations in various cities, not even treated to first-class travel.

[1:51] Tim Rice: We were lucky to be met at all at an airport or station, and if we were, it was usually by some harassed salesman in his beat-up station wagon.

[2:00] Tim Rice: We quickly deduced that Evita was not a major part of MCA's 1977 game plan.

[2:07] Tim Rice: The overall cock-up was perfectly illustrated by their release of "Don't Cry for Me, Argentina," the single, on the label of which they billed the artist as, quote, "Evita featuring Julie Covington," unquote, thinking that Evita was the name of some English band we dug up to record our song.

[2:26] Tim Rice: We didn't get particularly bad press or reviews.

[2:29] Tim Rice: It was worse than that.

[2:30] Tim Rice: We got virtually no reviews.

[2:32] Tim Rice: And nearly all radio stations were distinctly underwhelmed.

[2:37] Tim Rice: I felt that the only reason MCA even issued the Evita album in the States was that they'd look pretty stupid if those two weird English guys who'd had a hit with Jesus a few years back had another hit with this Eva Perón lady on another label.

[2:52] Tim Rice: But because things were going so well at home, we didn't let it get us down.

[2:56] Tim Rice: Huge interest was building up.

[2:58] Tim Rice: As I'd suspected, Eva Perón herself was becoming a star with almost as many pieces about her, fashion, historical, political, appearing in all parts of the media as there were articles about our show, or rather, proposed show, because we hadn't begun to put it together yet.

[3:16] Tim Rice: We were pretty confident that Robert Stigwood, who owned our management company, would want to produce the show, even though we currently lacked virtually every other piece of the jigsaw.

[3:26] Tim Rice: Andrew's most significant contribution to the business end of Evita had been to send not quite finished tapes of the album to Hal Prince in America.

[3:35] Tim Rice: Robert and we readily agreed that he would be the dream director, though surely unlikely to take the job, being Broadway's most celebrated musical figure, then working on Sweeney Todd, one of a string of Stephen Sondheim shows he'd directed, all to sensational critical reaction.

[3:53] Tim Rice: Why would he leave his home patch and work in London with two Brits who were not yet established in the theatre, or certainly not established in New York theatre?

[4:03] Tim Rice: The answer was that Hal liked the work.

[4:06] Tim Rice: He sent Andrew a three-page response a full three months before the album was officially released, apparently after just one hearing.

[4:15] Tim Rice: It's a fascinating document, at least if you're interested in musicals in general and our stuff in particular.

[4:22] Tim Rice: And it's worth quoting at some length.

[4:24] Tim Rice: I will not attempt an American accent.

[4:27] Tim Rice: Here's Hal's letter.

[4:29] Tim Rice: I tried to include everything that occurs to me without regard for your feelings.

[4:34] Tim Rice: Overall, I think it's a fascinating project.

[4:37] Tim Rice: You fellows deal in size, and I admire that.

[4:40] Tim Rice: Before I get into individual scenes, numbers and lyrics, I'd like to say I had a feeling, which grew, that something's missing in the second act, that fate intervenes and levels Eva rather than instruments of her own doing.

[4:54] Tim Rice: You touch on growing disillusionment within the government, but you don't describe it theatrically.

[5:00] Tim Rice: There's no confrontation in which Evita and Perón accelerate their own downfall.

[5:05] Tim Rice: The first act is structured so well that I found myself considering eliminating the intermission, which is a cop-out.

[5:12] Tim Rice: And then I realized what I was missing in the structure of the second act.

[5:16] Tim Rice: It's all in number 16, and the money kept rolling in, and probably should be solved there.

[5:22] Tim Rice: The opening is dazzling.

[5:24] Tim Rice: I'm crazy about the idea of Che functioning in the piece, but I think again for the stage, he should be much cooler, loose, and cynically humorous.

[5:33] Tim Rice: If he is to be strident, it should be after the waltz, after he is politicized.

[5:38] Tim Rice: The funeral is brilliant, as is Magaldi's song.

[5:43] Tim Rice: So far, I was really enjoying this letter.

[5:46] Tim Rice: I always thought that a movie in a Buenos Aires cinema, being interrupted by the announcement of Ava's death, followed by Andrew's majestic, almost overwhelming interpretation of Ava's funeral, and then Che's vicious and I hoped witty put down of Ava and her weeping millions was a pretty strong start to the show, which clearly had stirred Hal's creative juices.

[6:09] Tim Rice: However, I didn't think ditching the intermission would have gone down well with theatre owners who would not be thrilled to miss 20 minutes of flat out bar takings.

[6:18] Tim Rice: Back to the letter in a minute, but jumping ahead to the eventual London production.

[6:22] Tim Rice: Here is the great David Essex, my favorite Che, commentating on Ava's extravagant funeral.

[6:27] Tim Rice: Oh, what a circus.

[6:39] Tim Rice: Oh, what a circus or what a show!

[6:44] Tim Rice: Argentina has gone to town over the death of an actress called Eva Perón.

[6:53] Tim Rice: We've all gone crazy.

[6:56] Tim Rice: Mourning all day and mourning all night, falling over ourselves to get all of the misery right.

[7:09] Tim Rice: Oh, what an exit!

[7:12] Tim Rice: That's how to go when they're wringing your curtain down demand to be buried like a fabulous.

[7:12] Tim Rice: It's quite a sunset and good for the country in a roundabout way we have made the front pages of all the world's papers today.

[7:12] Tim Rice: But who is this Santa Evita?

[7:12] Tim Rice: While this howling hysterical sorrow, what kind of goddess has lived among us?

[7:51] Tim Rice: How will we ever get by without her?

[7:59] Tim Rice: She had her moments, she had some style.

[8:08] Tim Rice: Outside the Casa Rosada, Krangava Perón, but that's all gone now.

[8:16] Tim Rice: As soon as the smoke from the funeral clears, we're all gonna see how she did nothing for years.

[8:59] Tim Rice: You let down your people in feature.

[9:03] Tim Rice: You were supposed to have been immortal.

[9:07] Tim Rice: That's all they wanted.

[9:09] Tim Rice: Not much to ask for.

[9:11] Tim Rice: But in the end, you could not deliver.

[9:18] Tim Rice: Sing you fools, but you got it wrong.

[9:21] Tim Rice: Enjoy your prayers, but you have a good love.

[9:23] Tim Rice: Queen is dead, your king is through.

[9:25] Tim Rice: She is not coming back to you.

[9:29] Tim Rice: Sure business kept us all alive.

[9:31] Tim Rice: 17 October 1945.

[9:33] Tim Rice: But the star is gone.

[9:35] Tim Rice: Glad is one thing.

[9:36] Tim Rice: That's a pretty bad state for a state to fear.

[9:39] Tim Rice: Still gathering, we had the stage.

[9:46] Tim Rice: She didn't say much, but she said it loud.

[9:50] Tim Rice: Sing you fools, but you got it wrong.

[9:52] Tim Rice: Enjoy your prayers, but you have a girl.

[9:54] Tim Rice: Your queen is dead, your king is true.

[9:57] Tim Rice: She's not coming back to you.

[10:02] Tim Rice: David Essex, Oh, What a Circus. Those were the first words I wrote to that great tune, which is most famous, of course, as Don't Cry for Me, Argentina. David Essex had a big hit record with Oh What a Circus via a great pop version produced by Mike Bat.

[10:18] Tim Rice: Back to Hal's epistle. I think Shay is too British. I think some of his recitatif is corny. Quite frankly, below the rest of the material. I don't get a clear character as I do of Ava and Peron and of some of the minor characters. My thoughts there were, hmm. For Hal then went on to criticize the ladies's Got Potential and dangerous jade. But he was back with full praise for I'd be surprised any good for you and another suitcase in another hall. As he put it, I like Ava's seduction of Peron and the scene that follows with his mistress. I think it will work well on stage. The last scene in Act One is marvelous.

[11:00] Tim Rice: Some of Hal's other thoughts. I don't think the aristocrats are written as ingeniously, either musically or lyrically, as they should be. In Rainbow High, I do not like the reference to Lauren Bacall, principally because it distracts. Much as I like the waltz, there are some words which I do not like, such as, so why go bananas chasing nirvana's? I think it distracts because it's not up to quality. Hal had several other pertinent comments after just one hearing, remember, and many of his suggestions were carried out, though Lauren Bacall survived just as well because she came to the opening night in New York in 1979 and got one of the biggest cheers of the night. Bananas and Nirvanas hung in there for London, but got the chop for New York. The song in which Ava seduces the would-be president is, of course, I'd be surprisingly good for you. No changes were required there, I'm relieved to say.

[11:57] Tim Rice: Here are Elaine Page and Joss Ackland.

[12:52] ♪ Musical number: "I'd Be Surprisingly Good for You" — performed by Elaine Page and Joss Ackland ♪

[15:07] Tim Rice: Elaine Page and Josh Ackland from the London Original Cast recording. Hal finished his lengthy and by and large very encouraging letter by saying, in summing up, I think the style of the piece should be abrasive. Simple, raw is probably a better word. Contemporary Brecht, bold. Best to you both, Hal. PS. Tim, I wish I'd met you. It might make some of these criticisms easier to take in a more personal context.

[15:45] Tim Rice: Occupied as we were with the final stages of the record album's launch. Then there was Christmas. Then we began to hit the charts. Then we got to number one. Then we thought, shouldn't we have got back in touch with Hal Prince? We came down to Earth worrying about whether the great American was still remotely interested. After all, his letter had been written six months previously. But the great man was still interested. The only snag being that he was not available for a while. We had to pencil in summer 1978 for the London opening. This would, however, give us plenty of time to get everything right, we hoped.

[16:27] Tim Rice: I think podcast number 41, Slot is free. But this time around, I've already played extracts from the eventual London show, which demonstrate that we certainly got the casting right. David Essex as Che, Joss Ackland as Perron, and the then comparatively unknown Elaine Page as Ava. One of the lesser known numbers, which Hal was quite happy with, was entitled Shears a Diamond, in which Peron attempts to justify Ava's position and influence in the government to his military colleagues, whose disillusionment with both Perons is becoming more and more of a threat to them. It wasn't going to end well.

[17:05] Tim Rice: Here is Joss Ackland again.

[17:16] ♪ Musical number: "Shears a Diamond" — performed by Joss Ackland ♪

[19:02] Tim Rice: Although Hal had committed to directing the show, which was very exciting news, we still had the long way to go before we got to the stage of mounting the first ever production of Evita, which eventually featured the recordings I've just played in this podcast. We had a lot of ups and downs, casting crises, struggles with the press, and the inevitable confusion and panic that precedes any major West End opening, particularly a major musical. All this was waiting for us along the road.

[19:41] Tim Rice: That was episode 14 of Tim Rice's podcast, Get Onto My Cloud. Presented and written by me, Tim Rice, and produced by Peter Hobb.