This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Ben Rimalower: Broadway Podcast Network presents Giants in the Sky. How Sondheim and Lapine's Went Into the Woods.

[0:06] Ben Rimalower: With me, Ben Rimalower.

[0:08] Ben Rimalower: Today's guest, Daniel Henning, the Witch in James Lapine's blocking exercises.

[0:14] Ben Rimalower: Once upon a time.

[2:02] Daniel Henning: I played the Witch in James Lapine's blocking exercises. I also founded the Blank Theater in Hollywood and served as its artistic director for three decades, receiving nominations and trophies, including the LA Drama Critics Circle Award, Los Angeles Weekly Award, Ovation Award, NAACP Theatre Award, Backstage Garland Award, and the Dramalog Award.

[2:02] Daniel Henning: I have been responsible for developing over 800 new plays at the Blank, including over 350 by the best teen writers in the nation, such as Tony winner Stephen Caram's first play when he was 17. I have directed at Lincoln Center, Laguna Playhouse, the 2017 Ovation Awards, and the Los Angeles City Council LGBT Heritage Month celebration at City Hall. I also acted in numerous roles on film and television and am an acclaimed audiobook narrator. I serve on the Western Regional Council for the Entertainment Community Fund.

[2:02] Ben Rimalower: I was there in for a section of it. So okay, so that well, you tell I think I'm understanding that in James Lapine's blocking exercise, sort of like quasi workshop, Steven Dolganoff talked to me about having played the role of Jack in those exercises, that you also were there playing the role of the Witch.

[2:02] Daniel Henning: Yes, typecasting.

[2:02] Ben Rimalower: Well, I mean, I wish they could see you right now. You're giving me, you're the Witch I would cast, that's for sure.

[2:02] Daniel Henning: Um, yes, I played the Witch. Um, back this up for me, because like I assume that you were not just one of the people brought in by Joanna Merlin to audition in earlier in 1987.

[2:14] Daniel Henning: No. Um, so I was exactly like Steven said, I was a student at NYU. Um, and there was a notice up on the board exactly as he beautifully described. Um, and that that happened. And I did a little like a little countback to see like when that would have actually been. Um, because in my mind it seemed like a time when there weren't a lot of people around, like it almost felt like summer, but it couldn't have been. It had to have been like, you know, it had to have been like the last week of September, first week of October '86.

[2:43] Daniel Henning: Um, right, because this is before they went to San Diego. James was seeing whether or not he could pull off the staging without a choreographer. He said, "God, Daniel Henning is so fabulous in this role. I clearly don't need a choreographer." Then he got to San Diego, and the powers that be said, "No, actually, when we go to Broadway, you have to get somebody."

[3:04] Daniel Henning: Exactly. And I turned down the role of the Witch on Broadway.

[3:07] Ben Rimalower: So I'm sure you turned it down in all the revivals too.

[3:11] Daniel Henning: Wait, I just correct myself because I don't know if the powers that be said he needed a choreographer for Broadway. It's possible that James in San Diego or Steve or somebody else, I don't know who made the call, but then they did get a choreographer for Broadway.

[3:25] Ben Rimalower: So okay, but in these sessions with you, yeah, you, you so you responded to this not knowing what it was. There was this notice, and um, and I feel like I did know that it was actually for Into the Woods, but you know, no one had really heard much about it. I feel like it did a little bit, but uh, I immediately I was a senior at NYU at the time.

[3:45] Daniel Henning: Um, and the way that NYU works is that you have to, or at least at the time, I don't know now, but um, you had to take three years of studio and I had been studying at Circle in the Square um, and it was my fourth year and most people didn't take a fourth year of studio but I wanted to. So I was on kind of like an independent study course. It was just me and Alec Mappo were the only fourth year students at Circle.

[4:08] Daniel Henning: And um, and Alec and I, I met Alec at the auditions to NYU in San Francisco. Amazing. So um, and so I saw this thing and uh again I was like independent studies senior I was like well I gotta call about that and made the call and uh and told to show up. Steven said it was nighttime and I always thought it was daytime, but he might be right actually um because even looking at the dates we were in we had to have been in class what you know although I was on this independent study thing so I could even kind of pull out of a class if I didn't if I had something else that was important to do.

[4:42] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[4:42] Daniel Henning: Um, so uh so yeah it it was at West Beth. What I understand or what I remember from what I understood was that they had so we were at West Beth that is where they did the New York rehearsals for the Old Globe production.

[4:56] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[4:57] Daniel Henning: And so they set the room up two weeks in advance. So it was like this working space for you know Paul to be there for Sondheim to come in and with a new song and him play it and it was there. So even though we staged these things we weren't there for the whole two weeks but they were using it as like meeting rooms and it was taped out and you know all of that stuff.

[5:21] Daniel Henning: So um, it so there was a kind of this is like the brain central of Into the Woods.

[5:26] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[5:26] Daniel Henning: Yeah. And it was a very like, this is not exactly the right word, but um it was a there was a very casual feel to it. You know, it wasn't like we start at 9 a.m. or we start at 5 p.m. or whatever it was. It was like, you know, there was a time to start and you had to be there, but it wasn't like stage managers snapping their fingers and everyone hops up and goes to the work at five.

[5:44] Daniel Henning: It was because, you know, James would be talking to Sondheim or to Paul or to the thing, and there would be discussions about stuff, and you know, and he was talking stuff out, and or and Ira, of course, Ira Weitzman, of course, um, was there. Um, and uh um, and um so it was very like we I don't know, it felt like it felt like we were all kind of like, I don't know, like, you know, workshop and something, you know.

[6:13] Daniel Henning: Really he really did he he gave us, you know, he he he staged us and moved us, um, but it also felt uh it it didn't feel collaborative, of course, because he was James Lapine and there was Sondheim, you know, we were like, yes, sir, how high. Um, but there was also something we were there was respect given to us, you know, which was really lovely. And in fact, years later, six, seven years later or something, um, I ran into to James and I was like, excuse me, Mr. Lapine, I'm I'm Danny Henning, and I, you know, and he's like, I know who you are. You know what I mean? Like he immediately like he still remembered that.

[6:51] Daniel Henning: So that had been he remembered me and in that process. Maybe it was just you know, the 20-year-old version of this playing the Witch. Maybe that's what he remembered. Probably quite a sight. I wasn't even there, and I can't get it out of my head.

[7:06] Daniel Henning: And you knew me a little bit, but like not too long after that.

[7:09] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, it was like I guess '94 when I met you, maybe, or '93.

[7:12] Daniel Henning: '93, I think.

[7:13] Ben Rimalower: You were just going to Cal.

[7:15] Daniel Henning: Yeah, yeah.

[7:17] Ben Rimalower: Um for anyone, I this will be described anyway, but it should be said that Daniel is the artistic director of the Blank Theater Company in Los Angeles for decades.

[7:26] Ben Rimalower: And um that's where that's where we met. But you were already Daniel, not Danny when I met you.

[7:31] Daniel Henning: Yes, indeed.

[7:31] Daniel Henning: Yes, indeed. Um so um, so we did, you know, uh, you know, Steve, uh Steven was right when, you know, they gave us sides and we did need them to write down the choreography and um and uh and also perform them. I mean, because you know, you can't really, especially in the Sondheim stuff, you gotta perform the lyrics or you know what I mean.

[7:54] Daniel Henning: We didn't we weren't required to sing them necessarily, um, although we were the melody was being played, and I think Paul might have been singing along as well. But but we were, you know, expected to speak in rhythm and and and that to be able to really get the intricacies of the of the choreography down, you know.

[8:09] Ben Rimalower: Um so on did you the first day that you show up, were you just like assigned, or did you audition, or how did it like how did they?

[8:17] Daniel Henning: No, no, it was just it was a it was not it, they weren't you know, they they weren't expecting me to sound like Bernadette, right? You know what I mean? Like it wasn't that it was I think it was literally, you know, uh I think we were as Steven said, you know, lined up and they were like, "You're Jack, you're Little Red," you know.

[8:32] Daniel Henning: Um, I think were there not enough women, like were there other girls?

[8:36] Ben Rimalower: Yes, no, there wasn't the steward and you have to be the Witch.

[8:40] Daniel Henning: No, they um no, they only had there were only six or eight of us. Um definitely the six leads, and there may have been two others that were kind of you know, the fill because you know, we did the first midnight. I'm pretty sure we did the second midnight, we did ever after, you know.

[8:54] Daniel Henning: So those are big numbers that require more than eight people. Um, and uh um and so there was not a complete cast, as it were. Do you remember uh anyone besides Steven?

[9:06] Daniel Henning: I don't, and I didn't remember him either uh until that story, and I was so happy because you know, like he mentioned in your podcast, like it's a little bit like um did that happen? Yeah, did I actually go through that experience? Um but the one person I met and and so I know it happened, um, and we stayed, you know, we we all these years later we still know each other is is Ira Weitzman. So I know what happened.

[9:30] Daniel Henning: Um I have a funny thing, which I'll tell you about um from that, that like uh something, which is another reason why it rings very true in my head. Um but yeah, so we we staged those numbers. We also did um we also he said we did boom crunch, which we did, which I did.

[9:49] Daniel Henning: So weirdly enough, there was like suddenly one number that was just one person, which was me. Everything else was these big group numbers, but because it was tied to your fault, it was we staged all of that, including the little scene that right before it, too.

[10:03] Daniel Henning: Um, and so um, and it's I'm surprised that he didn't mention um staging your fault because to me that is the most vibrant in my head, because I just watched the Broadway video just to kind of refresh myself.

[10:17] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[10:17] Daniel Henning: Um, and I would say that in general, all of the staging of those numbers um was a little bit more um uh uh it was a little they were all fuller than they ended up being on Broadway.

[10:31] Daniel Henning: So they paired. So his and they and it was movement, not choreography.

[10:36] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[10:37] Daniel Henning: Um, when you when you see that your fault, that is the bones of what we did. Um, but in fact, the original staging was more intricately loopy. Like one person going after one person and the other group going after the other, and then mixing up in between, and it was a it was entirely circles within circles within circles within circles.

[11:06] Daniel Henning: And they that's there, that's the idea of that number now, but it was like uh uh not to exaggerate, like four times more.

[11:15] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[11:16] Daniel Henning: So when everybody went after each other, it's your fault, it's your fault. There was always a move forward, there was always a pushback, that it all it circled around, and then when the four of them were, you know, and I feel like for half of it or something, um Steven wasn't there, maybe he came late or something.

[11:34] Daniel Henning: I didn't know Steven, but because I was part of the four in part of the staging of that, and then you know, and then went back to my regularly scheduled role of the wheel.

[11:49] Daniel Henning: Um, so it was very it was even more elaborate than um what it ended up being.

[11:54] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, which was interesting because I and and I saw the original production, of course, and um and I I didn't remember that it had changed, but then watching the video again, I was like, oh no, it's definitely less elaborate.

[12:05] Daniel Henning: Um, but the same absolutely the same idea. So I mean, and I guess that's what maybe what Laura brought in was like, you know, paring it down a little bit to bring the you know, um, but it's there's more they stand around more in that number, yeah, than we did.

[12:20] Ben Rimalower: Interesting.

[12:22] Ben Rimalower: Um and do you how many days were you there?

[12:26] Daniel Henning: You know, I mean, three makes sense, but it could have been four or five. Um, you know, I I know that I had time to get to know Ira.

[12:37] Daniel Henning: Um I also had um, which uh I don't now I'm I have uh I didn't realize we didn't all have this opportunity, but um I got Ira to give me a script the first day.

[12:50] Daniel Henning: So I took the script home the first night and I read the script. So I knew everything that was going on.

[12:55] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[12:56] Daniel Henning: Um I don't. I I think I get I'm pretty sure I gave it back to Ira.

[13:03] Daniel Henning: Oh god damn. Um one of the things actually, so here's my little our little my little joke with Ira. It's a ridiculously stupid story, but it's something that he and I have still have giggled about over the years.

[13:15] Daniel Henning: So the end of the first act, you know, and they were still working on it, and you know, and even on Broadway, they were still trying to figure out how to how to give that that curtain, you know, the right bump.

[13:26] Daniel Henning: Um and so I I believe that it was originally written. Sorry, my camera's a little out of focus. Hello, oh well. Um uh I uh I believe that the way that it was originally written was that um the characters leave the stage and then so it's an empty stage and then loud sounds and rumbling and then the beanstalk grows out of the stage and curtain, right?

[13:53] Ben Rimalower: Um the end of the first act.

[13:55] Daniel Henning: Yes. And so they were uh they were talking about that and trying to make that more, you know, the button, the first act button, the first act curtain moment.

[14:04] Daniel Henning: Um and so Ira and I started just over in the corner quietly, you know, while James was doing something else Paul or whatever. Um uh uh we quietly went through like how what that could be you know how do we give the first act that pack that pound that it really needs and um finally we came up with that um the cast would leave the stage and the beanstalk would grow out of the stage and riding it in a black sequin dress would be Yoko Ono.

[14:36] Daniel Henning: The giant's a woman answer to how to beef up the the ending of the first act of Into the Woods.

[14:47] Daniel Henning: That hit maker um and then she'd get to sing you know boom crash yeah I'm here for it she would have been a great witch um so what was what was your impression she was um yeah yeah um which is the eye of the beholder um what were your impressions of the piece at that time you know I was I was enamored with it you know um I mean it was it was such a I okay so I was at the first preview and the opening night of Sunny the Park of George.

[15:22] Ben Rimalower: Oh wow really um I had seen it many times during the run.

[15:27] Daniel Henning: Um I was also at the um Follies in concert when Mandy Potankin fed up uh uh the uh Buddy's blues yeah um so watching him stop in the middle of it you know and I and I had and and I paid a lot of money for my ticket to that there was a dinner afterwards that I was at, you know.

[15:46] Daniel Henning: So at this point I was I was very familiar with Sondheim and and his presence in the 80s, you know. I mean, certainly who he was before that and Sweeney, I saw Angela Lansbury just Sweeney and don't think. Um, but uh and then so I recognized um the departure that Into the Woods was for him.

[16:06] Ben Rimalower: Even from Sunday in the park.

[16:08] Daniel Henning: Yes. Yeah, because it's it's just you know, it's just a whole it i i I mean, it's fairy tales, and now he's telling like almost a family story, but in his own way, of course. Um, but you know, and and indeed it has turned out to be something you could take your kids to these all these years, you know, um, even though it's pretty dark.

[16:27] Daniel Henning: Um, which was you know, Sondheim's way of doing fairy tales, you know, they would have to be dark. Like, why would he do, you know, he's not gonna do the Jerry Herman version of that, you know.

[16:37] Ben Rimalower: No.

[16:38] Daniel Henning: Jerry Herman's into the woods.

[16:40] Ben Rimalower: Um just all takes place in the meat rack.

[16:45] Daniel Henning: Um what uh how did how did you feel about that departure uh as a Sondheim fan? Uh I thought it was an amazing next step, you know. Um, you know, and I also knew James's work from, you know, Falsetto, March of the Falsettos and Um that too, and you know, so it just it seemed like a a a little surprising, but also like how magnificent.

[17:10] Daniel Henning: And I remember that first day, uh, you know, kind of like Stephen was saying, the um the uh uh it was confusing because there were all of these fairy tales and how did they fit together, you know. Um and then I got to read the script.

[17:25] Daniel Henning: And so then I got to see, oh, this is how they fit together. This is really interesting. Um, and you know, so I really enjoyed, you know, finally like um, you know, seeing all of that come together. Um I mean, this was really the moment.

[17:39] Daniel Henning: I mean, when I think about this time in the fall of 86 in the um history of Into the Woods, because they had done a year earlier a reading at Playwrights Horizons.

[17:53] Ben Rimalower: And then a couple months earlier they had done a workshop at Playwrights Horizons.

[17:56] Daniel Henning: Oh the first act only were they both first act only or was it the whole thing? I think the workshop in June of 86 only had the score of Act One, but it had a script for Act Two as well.

[18:09] Daniel Henning: I mean, you know, it had it had a score and script for Act one, but Act Two had no music. Um kind of like here we are. Um but um I think uh but here but but it hadn't been staged and how would they come together?

[18:23] Daniel Henning: And you know people even in readings of very crystal clear plays audiences in a reading are sometimes confused yeah because it's just people talking.

[18:34] Daniel Henning: So for this the exact moment that Into the Woods is really you know transitioning from a piece that's been heard uh to going to San Diego to starting those rehearsals at Westbet two weeks after you to put the entire show up on its feet and this is the exact moment when James Lapine is envisioning how this show actually comes to life in in motion and the fact that and it's so vivid and and uh amazing the way you've described it as this like you know I mean the word workshop has you know different meanings but it really seems like a lowercase W.

[19:14] Daniel Henning: It's like James Lapine's like theatrical workshop where it's just like you get there, they've already been there, you know, they stayed late last night. Like they're having meetings there when you go home. Like this is the place where they are rolling up their sleeves.

[19:28] Daniel Henning: It's a sandbox, you know. And what what a man, and it's so odd because that's not really how we think of Broadway. Um, and Woods was to become obviously this Broadway staple.

[19:40] Ben Rimalower: But James Lapine was really fashioning it in his own artistic, creative, uh, different way.

[19:49] Daniel Henning: Uh, you know, putting together these elements, and um, how cool that you were one of them.

[19:55] Daniel Henning: Yeah, it was it was it was that I mean, that is I think that's a beautiful way to describe it because that that is, I think, exactly what happened. And then, of course, you know, the maestro would go home and do maestro things and then come back and give them to us as gifts.

[20:10] Daniel Henning: And um, you know, and I know Steven mentioned the the the giants in the sky. Well, I had um, because I I don't know, I've always been like this, but like, you know, I didn't get to those rehearsals at five o'clock if the call was five, I was there at 4:30.

[20:25] Daniel Henning: Because who knows what might be going on in that room. And I knew the room was open, and I knew they were doing this kind of, you know. And so I was like, well, what happens if I get there a little early? Let me see.

[20:36] Daniel Henning: And um, and so I walked in uh one day at the top of rehearsal, and there was no one in the room. Maybe there was a stage manager in the room.

[20:47] Daniel Henning: Um, uh, but Paul, and I and I get and it must have been like the third day or something, because Paul and I were chummy at this point too, Paul Ford, and um, and I walked in the room and uh his face lit up and he he pointed his finger and he crooked his finger at me.

[21:03] Daniel Henning: He said, Come here. And then he literally pointed to the piano bench next to him. He said, sit down.

[21:09] Daniel Henning: And he said, You're the fourth person to hear this. And then he sang no more.

[21:15] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[21:16] Daniel Henning: And I wept.

[21:17] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[21:18] Daniel Henning: Um, I had a difficult relationship with my father at that point. Um, I knew the play, so I knew the song in context, and there it was.

[21:28] Daniel Henning: And he was singing, and the, you know, it was like Sondheim had heard it, obviously, and Lapine's, and then Paul was number three, and then I was number four.

[21:38] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[21:39] Daniel Henning: And they didn't, it wasn't in rehearsal. He didn't, we didn't do it. It wasn't played. I don't think anybody else got to hear that experience.

[21:45] Daniel Henning: But I can tell you that no more was written and presented in those two two weeks for sure. Amazing.

[21:52] Ben Rimalower: Amazing.

[21:53] Daniel Henning: You know, and and and even just seeing it again the other day on the video, you know, it's still just even just telling the story right now. I'm getting like tingly, you know.

[22:02] Daniel Henning: Yeah, I feel like that is something that I will, you know, forever hold in my heart, you know.

[22:08] Ben Rimalower: Listen, you could make a case for that being one of Sondheim's best songs.

[22:12] Daniel Henning: I mean, certainly for a lot of people, it's their favorite in Into the Woods.

[22:15] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah.

[22:16] Daniel Henning: And it's I also want to circle back to something else you said that is really sitting with me.

[22:20] Daniel Henning: Is this um, because people talk a lot about the departure for Sondheim at the beginning of the Lapine's collaboration, you know, from Marilee from Hal Prince to Sunday in the park with James Lapine.

[22:33] Ben Rimalower: Um, but it's interesting thinking about this sort of you know uh NYU senior 1980s lens on Sondheim, where into the woods is a departure from the Folly's in concert slash Sunday in the park with George because Folly's in Concert has no Hal Prince.

[22:33] Daniel Henning: Folly's in concert has no Boris Aronson, has no Florence Klotz. There's nothing um uh you know production spectacular about Folly's in concert.

[23:03] Daniel Henning: Follies in Concert is about, you know, uh Mandy Patinkin from Sunday in the Park with George, Howard McGillen from Sunday in the Park with George, right?

[23:13] Daniel Henning: It's Barbara Cook and George Hearn singing Too Many Mornings. It's not that different from Mandy and Bernadette singing um, you know, uh we do not belong together.

[23:24] Ben Rimalower: And, you know, it's it's for this to be um kind of the the Sondheim milieu that uh Little Red Riding Hood and Jack and the Beanstalk are suddenly like, you know, kind of like bursting into uh it really is a departure and it's such an interesting, different uh perspective, man.

[23:45] Daniel Henning: I'm so into that.

[23:47] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[23:47] Daniel Henning: It was uh it was definitely, you know, and I was super, I mean, I was I mean, when I got to NYU, uh I saw every show that opened on Broadway that first season that I was there.

[23:58] Daniel Henning: Because why not? I was from Poland, right? Like I I didn't get a chance, I mean, I did get to see Angela Lansbury and George Hearn do Sweeney Todd and tour in San Francisco, but like I was, you know, I didn't, and I saw Richard Burton do Camelot, uh, you know, in San Francisco, but in general, you know, and to finally have the opportunity to see every show that opened on Broadway, including Marilyn and American Fable, which I saw five times.

[24:20] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[24:22] Daniel Henning: Wow. Um, and it was partially to educate myself, you know.

[24:26] Daniel Henning: Like, why did I see Marilyn that many times? Because I wanted to watch them try to fix this show.

[24:30] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah.

[24:31] Daniel Henning: You know, and they cut that, really. Oh, they put that number in, you know, and I would go back to just watch those things happen.

[24:36] Ben Rimalower: So, which is why I was uh, you know, at the first preview of um of Sunday, you know, because it was part of my, you know, my educating myself, you know.

[24:45] Daniel Henning: Absolutely.

[24:47] Daniel Henning: That's what's always bothered me when you hear Sondheim and Hal Prince and other people from that crew, uh, I'll say it, bitch and moan about um, you know, the sort of like Broadway, you know, uh nastiness at the previews of Marilee Rolong.

[25:05] Ben Rimalower: And uh I'm sure that it was a thing, but I'm also like um, you know, a lot of those people were people like you at those previews of Marile Rollung who were like wanted to, you know, see the masters do their work, you know.

[25:26] Daniel Henning: And um, I love that. But listen, money bags, you went to the opening night of Sunny in the Park with George.

[25:32] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[25:33] Daniel Henning: Um, you went to five performances of Maryland.

[25:36] Ben Rimalower: Why didn't you fly to San Diego to see Into the Woods?

[25:39] Daniel Henning: Okay, well, first of all, I wasn't money bags, I was very clever about how I did all of that.

[25:43] Ben Rimalower: Tell it all.

[25:45] Daniel Henning: Uh and then, but I was I was well, uh actually I can answer that question because so you know, watching I wasn't a director, I was an actor.

[25:55] Daniel Henning: Yeah. I had not really directed much, although later my mother told me that I had been kicked out of my babysitters when I was 10 for directing all the skits and the kids did the other kids in the line.

[26:05] Daniel Henning: So apparently I've always been a director, but I wasn't then.

[26:09] Daniel Henning: And so, you know, I did that into the woods thing because hello, you know, it's Sondheim and Lapine's and you know, and a chance to be working on, you know, what I think was assumed was a Broadway show or something, you know what I mean?

[26:20] Daniel Henning: Just that opportunity um to further my education outside of my education at NYU, which was already great, but you know, and I and Circle in the Square Theater School was connected, you know, it's Circle in the Square on Broadway.

[26:32] Daniel Henning: So I was around a lot of Broadway shows and a lot of Broadway people and you know, from Kane Meeting Court Marshal through all the stuff they did in the 80s at Circle.

[26:40] Daniel Henning: And then um, and then so I I was I was excited to be doing the to playing the witch, you know, um uh and excited to be part of that process.

[26:51] Daniel Henning: But I also was excited to be, that's why I was like, can I see the script? You know, all of that stuff.

[26:55] Daniel Henning: Like I wanted to literally teach myself more about um the theater and about staging and all of that.

[27:03] Daniel Henning: So um, so uh it that inspired me to uh explore directing and uh more.

[27:12] Daniel Henning: So uh right after that, it had to have been literally right after that. Uh it was announced that um Circle in the Square Um Theater was doing at the downtown theater because the uptown theater had um a Shaw play that was a big hit that can extended.

[27:34] Daniel Henning: So the so they moved the next production at Circle Downtown to the downtown theater on Bleaker Street, and it was the world premiere of The Widow Claire, starring Matthew Broderick and Halle Foote and Dan Butler and eight-year-old Sarah Michelle Geller.

[27:49] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[27:49] Daniel Henning: Um and I knew that was happening, and I was my it was my senior year, and I had this sort of like, you know, you know, um, poo-poo platter of uh classes I was taking and you know, and and choosing the choosing what I wanted to do.

[28:01] Daniel Henning: And I was like, well, I know what I want to do. I want to be the assistant director on that show.

[28:05] Daniel Henning: And so from the experience of being with Sondheim and Lapine's, I then went to Circle and Square Theater School and I was like, you need to get me a job on this show.

[28:13] Daniel Henning: And they're like, there's not a job on the show. And I was like, I'm paying a lot of tuition to you right now.

[28:18] Daniel Henning: Make me a job. I don't need to be paid, but I want to do.

[28:21] Daniel Henning: So then I became the assistant Michael Lindsay Hogg's assistant um on The Widow Claire, which was they it was had to have been like literally from like a week after I did the End of the Woods stuff.

[28:34] Daniel Henning: So the reason I didn't go to San Diego to see End of the Woods is because I was working an off Broadway show.

[28:39] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[28:40] Daniel Henning: I was on and then I stayed with The Widow Claire as an ASM through you know the six month run or whatever.

[28:45] Ben Rimalower: Wonderful that's the answer why wait so how did how did you finagle your way into the opening night of Sunday in the Park with George?

[28:51] Daniel Henning: Uh you know what? I bought a ticket day of there was just, you know, and it was front row mezzanine.

[29:00] Daniel Henning: I'd already seen it five or six times so I knew that was going to be a great seat. Uh it was front row mezzanine. It was snowing it was a very cold snowy day.

[29:08] Daniel Henning: I happened to have a tuxedo that was in the days when people actually dressed up to go to the um and wore tuxedos so I had a tux so I wouldn't stand out you know um uh and uh and the and I that day I bought the I guess I must have gone up to the box office because that's how you did that then yeah um and uh and I um uh and I got the because you know cancellations right so I basically bought a cancellation ticket to the opening night of Sunday the Park of George amazing um and uh okay so then they into the woods goes to um the old globe were you talking to Ira Weitzman or anybody else involved?

[29:48] Daniel Henning: Were you getting updates?

[29:50] Ben Rimalower: Not so much.

[29:51] Daniel Henning: Just things that might filter down through because now I'm in the community. So like, you know the of course, the best the best information network in New York theater at that time were the box office treasurers.

[30:04] Ben Rimalower: Really?

[30:05] Daniel Henning: Oh yes. They all knew everything. They all talked to each other. They all knew what was going on amongst themselves. They, you know, absolutely. Like that was the and they didn't have they weren't invested other than you know, being there and knowing it's all happening and the money flowing, so they really know what's happening or not happening.

[30:23] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[30:23] Daniel Henning: So um, and I was uh and I was um I had a good buddy who was who I worked with at the Widow Claire. Um, and then he actually went over to run um Little Shop at the Orpheum, and then he got and stayed there for 30 years or something. Uh uh and but he was like my little conduit to the like box office treasurer community.

[30:42] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[30:43] Daniel Henning: Bitchy, bitchy box office treasurer community. Not my friend, my friend's not too bitchy, but they all were.

[30:49] Ben Rimalower: So do you like you remember when you found out it was going to the Martin Beck and that kind of stuff?

[30:55] Daniel Henning: Yeah, absolutely. Um it was, you know, um uh uh it was again I probably heard it from within the you know, within the um the community uh uh before it was sort of announced or what have you. Um, but I definitely remember I remember the signs going up. I remember the, you know, the um the beautiful because I hadn't really seen like key art from it or anything. I was in the workshop, I didn't say there was none of that.

[31:23] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[31:23] Daniel Henning: Well, it would have been different anyway. The art in San Diego was not the same exactly.

[31:28] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[31:29] Daniel Henning: Um yeah, I'm trying to see if there um, you know, there um I think that by the way, um I most of the cast was in place when we started rehearsal, but I don't think Ben Wright was actually cast yet. I think they were still maybe working that out. So, you know, Steven's saying he wanted to, you know, audition for Jack, and of course I had the same, you know, I had the same question and the same thing as well. And I think it was because he wasn't quite cast yet, and we knew that, so there was like a little bit more opportunity that we might, you know.

[32:01] Ben Rimalower: We weren't really, we were speak singing.

[32:04] Daniel Henning: We're um, you know, we weren't really singing singing, um, and I'm not sure how anyone can sing Boom Crunch, but um uh so but but the rest was like we I knew Ellen Foley was doing it, I know we we you know that was part of maybe Ira was telling me these things. I don't I don't know exactly. Um uh I I seemed to sort of just connect into the the information in the room a little bit more, again, maybe from coming early and other stuff like that.

[32:31] Ben Rimalower: Um and what about the following year when when the show um in 1987, I mean the show closed at the old globe in January, yeah, and then um they wound up uh doing another workshop at 890 Broadway uh in July. Uh so do you know, do you were you following sort of the story between you know January of 87 and July of 87?

[32:58] Daniel Henning: Not really. Um that was my you know, I was that was my senior year at NYU, you know, I was like busy graduating. Yeah, and and working off Broadway. Um so I was super that was where my focus became there.

[33:11] Ben Rimalower: Um I did uh I did see the Broadway production. I didn't see it a lot because by that point I was then um managing Circle in the Square downtown and we were doing um Oil City Symphony.

[33:24] Daniel Henning: Oh yeah.

[33:26] Ben Rimalower: So even I think I literally had to take the day matinee or something that I was able to that I didn't have a conflicting performance for. But I remember the schedules were were almost identical. We did the off-Broadway. I think we did the five show weekend. Um but uh other than that, um, so I don't so I I only got to see that production once. Um I did also see the first national tour with a bunch of people who ended up being friends, and some of them were friends at the time, and you know, um that was really cool too.

[34:01] Daniel Henning: Did you see Cleo Lane?

[34:02] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[34:04] Daniel Henning: Was she incredible?

[34:05] Ben Rimalower: Incredible.

[34:06] Daniel Henning: Well, I had seen, I had seen my God, I'd seen Edwin Drood uh, I don't know, seven or eight times at that point.

[34:11] Ben Rimalower: Wow, you know, um, just because I, you know, because they were all phenomenal, including Betty Buckley.

[34:16] Daniel Henning: Yeah.

[34:17] Ben Rimalower: She was oh my god, and Edwin Drude, she was truly remarkable. I also saw because I'd seen Song and Dance many times with Bernadette. I saw Bernadette's final performance in Song and Dance, and then I saw Betty Buckley's first performance in Song and Dance.

[34:31] Daniel Henning: Wait, that is that the legendary night that Betty belted the end of Unexpected Song.

[34:36] Ben Rimalower: Oh yeah.

[34:38] Daniel Henning: Um and you know, the funny thing was that you know, because Bernadette was, you know, at that point, and she'd had a you know, she had a lot of vocal trouble during Song and Dance.

[34:45] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[34:46] Daniel Henning: That's Christina Bianco's hilarious for Ben Broadway number, see me on a Monday, please. Um and and actually Bernadette had introduced me to her singing teacher who really helped her through that, Adrian Angel, and then she became my singing teacher in that time as well. But you know, and and so she was, you know, she was sick in Song and Dance, and then and the the video of Sunday um she did when she was sick.

[35:11] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, right.

[35:12] Daniel Henning: That's why some of the vocals she overdubbed after the fact.

[35:15] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[35:16] Daniel Henning: Yeah.

[35:16] Ben Rimalower: Um and so but it was remarkable to see to see Bernadette's final performance where she, you know, not a consonant to be found. You know all like she's weeping. Because she's leaving the show and it was so deeply personal and a one woman thing she was breathtakingly phenomenal. And then and then Betty ended up being like the school mom version of the Betty will be so pleased to hear that.

[35:40] Daniel Henning: Um okay you you criticized Bernadette's diction that makes my day with with with but with an incredible you know with it with a it it was a different heart. You know what I mean? Like there was Bernadette so it was I wanted to see them both that close together to really compare.

[35:54] Ben Rimalower: Wow yeah it's like so it's like one night and then the following night I think it was a Sunday and a Tuesday. I think there was Monday off.

[36:01] Daniel Henning: God what did you do on Monday?

[36:04] Ben Rimalower: Wondered what Betty Buckley would be doing with Song and Dance.

[36:06] Daniel Henning: Hilarious um so uh well around that time I mean I I believe Song and Dance is why Betty did not go to the old globe. Um oh that would make sense because she had done the Plair it's horizons workshop uh in June of eighty six and then she did uh of Into the Woods and then in July of eighty seven she did the pre Broadway workshop of Into the Woods as the witch um right and so you remember knowing that Betty was coming uh in and um was going to be the witch in Into the Woods?

[36:17] Daniel Henning: Yeah I I remember and then at the time it felt quite sudden um that there was there was Betty Buckley and then there was Bernadette Peters.

[36:17] Ben Rimalower: Yeah yeah I think it was extremely sudden.

[36:56] Daniel Henning: Um let me ask you have having played the witch yourself um was there a sense before Bernadette's involvement that the witch was the starring role um well from my perspective yes yeah yeah considering I am the you know the first the first diva to have played that role in the in the but you had the script I mean like you know unlike Steven Dolgenov you were going home and you were reading it and you know at that time I mean the script that Ellen Foley had in San Diego uh she had Boom Crunch but she had no stay with me no children will listen yeah yeah it I feel like I feel like yes there was a sense well if if she was the antagonist you know and and they were the protagonist you know all of them little red yeah um and that was a and that was another thing that I found you know really interesting in sort of the structure of a musical or any piece of dramatic work to have like a pro a an antagonist but a group that is the protagonist.

[38:07] Ben Rimalower: That's an interesting take on it.

[38:08] Daniel Henning: You know um that was a real I felt so there so the witch role did stand out.

[38:13] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[38:14] Daniel Henning: And Ellen Foley was a TV star, you know, so she was a star, you know, in you're talking about the one season on Nightcore before she was replaced?

[38:22] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[38:23] Daniel Henning: But at that moment she was right you know what I mean and that was part of it is like oh they have a TV star coming in to play the witch.

[38:31] Ben Rimalower: So yeah there was a sense that's a very gay take, Daniel.

[38:35] Daniel Henning: I don't know.

[38:36] Ben Rimalower: I don't know.

[38:37] Daniel Henning: I'm sure Ellen would love to hear that but um not my take. That was what, you know what what was talked about. Like she was.

[38:45] Ben Rimalower: That sounds like hype.

[38:46] Daniel Henning: I don't think that they actually felt confident with that that Ellen Foley. I think that as a matter of fact, my suspicion is the reason they were got replaced Alan Foley was because they felt they needed a star.

[38:59] Ben Rimalower: Well, it you know, I I mean I don't know all of the intricacies inside of that. But it but you know, and especially in the 80s when it was there was sort of a bigger prejudice against California and theater. Um I think that that because I absolutely remember the idea that she was the TV star coming into this show.

[39:22] Daniel Henning: So maybe they thought like California needed a TV star or something. There was something about her being, you know, not you know, uh above not above, but um uh not a Broadway star but a TV star.

[39:34] Ben Rimalower: I don't know, Daniel. She was a very experienced Broadway actor at that point.

[39:38] Daniel Henning: She just wasn't famous for I I didn't uh this is just at the time that's what somebody said to me that that was one of the things that they were excited about with her was that, yeah.

[39:49] Ben Rimalower: Um was that person the publicist?

[39:52] Daniel Henning: No, I mean it could have been Ira. It could have been Iraq that's there were there were very few people in the room, like I say. I mean, Paul and James and Ira and probably stage manager, and I don't think that there weren't a bunch of people around watching us. This was James's play box, you know.

[40:10] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I love it.

[40:12] Daniel Henning: Um and you know, and and by the way, even the the first midnight and ever after, and and you know, um there uh I I feel like that was actually pared down from what we did too. Um like the first midnight there we used the passerelle more. Uh and so there were things in that, even though it's it was fairly simple, it was even a little more simple on Broadway. Like they pulled back the passerelle work on the first midnight.

[40:38] Ben Rimalower: Did you feel um those were improvements, those sort of um uh reductions?

[40:45] Daniel Henning: Um, you know, I think that I I think by the time it it um by the time I saw it, because now it's a year later, probably over a year later, um uh it it's um uh I had it now there's all kinds of new songs that you know, and it was just a very like it was a it was a not different, but it was uh an expanded version of it. Um I and I I kind of went to, even though I I had said all this stuff about I kept going to see these shows to like learn about how this was all done. Yeah, uh I I this one I went to um just as a fan and to like just bring my heart to this experience that I was now deeply personally connected to.

[41:31] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[41:31] Daniel Henning: Um and Boom Crunch was gone at that point too. So so I remember just well, I remember wanting to get to know more. I remember wanting to be on a non judgmental journey, and because I knew that's where the show was going, and that song had meant so much to me being the fourth person who ever heard it. Um I remember like the giddiness of like going back to the giddiness of like when I was a kid and going to theater and wanting, you know, I just was able to give my heart over to it. Um, and so I really it was a seeing it and knowing that I had even the tiniest little part of that was profound for me.

[42:13] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[42:14] Ben Rimalower: That's beautiful.

[42:16] Daniel Henning: Um, thank you so much, Daniel. It is really uh, you know, this show is so is so personal to so many people, you know, as fans and all the people that have done productions all over the place. And then it's so interesting to find um, you know, a theater colleague uh who I wouldn't have guessed has this, you know, strange, interesting, specific personal experience very intimately uh with the creation of the show. So I really appreciate you sharing it with us.

[42:46] Daniel Henning: Well, you know, when when I first, you know, when I saw that you were doing this podcast, and you know, and I knew that I had this, you know, experience. I, you know, I thought about sort of saying something to you, but I was like, not Ellen Foley or you are theaters or whoever, you know. So I didn't even like drop you a note and say, I have this really weird experience. Um, and but then when I saw that you had the interview with Steven and listened to it, I was like, oh my god. Well, okay, I guess I have to confess I was the witch.

[43:15] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, you do.

[43:18] Daniel Henning: Well, I I you're forever tinged in my eyes. Um not a TV star like Ellen Foley, but a Broadway diva like Betty Buckley.

[43:27] Ben Rimalower: Um, well, thank you for talking to me, Daniel.

[43:30] Daniel Henning: Anytime, my friend, anytime.

[43:36] Ben Rimalower: Thank you for listening to Giants in the Sky, how Sondheim and Le Pine went into the woods on the Broadway Podcast Network. Look out for episode 44 with Felicia Rashad, Replacement Witch.