This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Dan Tracy: Don't go. Don't cut it. I am I'm too old to have a mop over it. I literally look like a pageant boy. Like a like a page boy from the middle ages. For the it is not okay. No, Heath Ledger. It is I am not getting ready for my performance in The Walking Dead, the musical, although I'm sure that's on its way. Why don't you well, maybe I'm listening what our favorite one of our favorite casting directors, fan fan of the pods, said keep the long hair, Dan.

[0:35] Joe Carroll: Yeah, but you know what? You're going against the advice. That's okay. I I can't I can't be walking around the golf course with hair like this. You know, I need to cut it back, get ready for summer.

[0:46] Dan Tracy: I just couldn't agree less, but um, but that's okay. So an actor is saying his lines, and then out of nowhere, he just starts singing. Foxing Simony. Don't cry for me.

[1:16] Dan Tracy: Welcome to Guys Who Like Musicals. We're talking about Dan's hair. Welcome to Guys Who Like Musicals. The other piece of good news, and I just want to like, before we get into the stuff that we're gonna talk about, I did something this morning that I think I know that I didn't invent this, but it was maybe one of the most amazing things that's ever happened. Last night, Alex made homemade whipped cream, and we had ice cream, and this morning I put the whipped cream in my coffee. It was the greatest thing that's ever happened.

[1:46] Joe Carroll: See, fans, this is how you know that Joe is a boomer. He's completely unaware that this has been a TikTok trend for 18 months. Wait. Just completely unaware. He has no clue what you've all been doing on TikTok. It's so sad. Isn't it so sad? Are you sad for yourself?

[2:05] Dan Tracy: I'm thinking doing great.

[2:09] Joe Carroll: Okay, good. I'm doing great. No, I'm not. I'm not. I know that I'm not. But that so this is a TikTok trend. That's really funny, actually. That's classic. Because I did coffee. I uh And you whip the cream and then you put the instant coffee in it.

[2:27] Dan Tracy: Oh so you whip the instant coffee and then you whip the cream into the instant coffee so the whole whipped cream is actually coffee. Uh and then you put whipped cream on the top.

[2:38] Joe Carroll: Yeah. That's sleeping. I see. Okay. All right. All right. Well, here we are. So I need to get get hip to the uh 20th century, uh, apparently.

[2:49] Dan Tracy: Twenty-first century. I uh I I know I need to get to the end of the twentieth century.

[2:53] Joe Carroll: That was the joke. That was that was the like I'm still I read about TikTok. I read about TikTok in the paper version of the New York Times. I've told you this. I was sitting in my slippers reading about TikTok in the newspaper.

[3:08] Dan Tracy: Speaking of the newspaper. Speaking of the newspaper. Let's uh let's talk about some current events. Let's talk about some current events.

[3:15] Joe Carroll: So we we felt it was important to talk about the Scott Rudin situation. Uh we'll just get right into it because um there was this if uh for those of you who don't know, there was this bombshell article uh in the Hollywood Reporter about uh uh spelling out a whole bunch of accusations against Scott Rudin, hit the work culture, um, at his company, and uh the way that he has abused um people who have worked for him in the past.

[3:45] Dan Tracy: Um, and it's been this is the thing that there's been so much silence around it from outlets that should really be talking about it. Much bigger outlets than Guys Who Like Musicals. Um, but we're a couple guys who like musicals, and we thought that we should talk about it because it's this is a huge issue. This is something that um unfortunately is like the one of the best kept secrets of Broadway.

[4:13] Joe Carroll: Um I remember my first Broadway show. I was 22, and we were going at a press event uh for Once down to we're doing press somewhere, and we're sitting with a person who was working for the show who had used who used to be one of um his assistants. And I heard the first my first story that I ever heard about the abuses, the sort of mental and and physical abuse that would take place in his office.

[4:43] Dan Tracy: And this person would tell stories about getting phone calls at 4:30 in the morning, and uh, you know, where are you? You should be in the office, screaming at them and um show up at the office, things being thrown, all of this stuff. And we were sitting there like having a drink, like, oh my god, that's crazy. What a crazy story. And you know, things are starting to come out in a substantial way, and I think it's important that we talk about it.

[5:11] Joe Carroll: Yeah, and what's interesting, what's most interesting to me is that the w uh what's different about this moment is that it centers the mistreatment of these uh these people who have been abused by him instead of centering the storied career of Scott Rudin. Because this um, you know, this story has been covered by some publications. None of them uh Playbill ran an article kind of just summarizing it, but there have not really been any statements by producers, by shows, by theaters, by uh by the union, by major actors.

[5:55] Dan Tracy: Um nobody's really said anything um to to any capacity, but but The Atlantic, uh surely, Shirley Lee, uh who's a culture writer at The Atlantic was talking about how, you know, this is the first time that this this man has had a huge article about him where it's not praise. Everybody knew what was going on, and they wrote about it in this way that made him seem like this like mythic super boss who was so artistically relevant that he was allowed to act however he wanted.

[6:29] Joe Carroll: He was literally called boss Zilla in a 2005 Wall Street Journal article. Right? He was called uh legendary in Variety in '99. He was praised in the Los Angeles Times, the New York Times, Page Six. The most feared man in town. Mr. Rudin holds the unofficial crown of Hollywood's most feared boss.

[6:54] Dan Tracy: Right? Right. So, you know, now it's kind of coming out that like maybe we should reconsider a lot of this, and yeah, maybe we should. I've never met Scott Rudin, never worked for Scott Rudin. I've heard stories of him from people who have worked for him, so that's all, you know, I can't really speak to any of that.

[7:15] Joe Carroll: Um, but I have heard that he definitely treats who he knows he needs to treat well differently. So if you are the star of his show, it's a different situation. And I have heard also that he does treat his actors well, which may be why some of these actors aren't afraid, are not as willing to come forward, because this doesn't seem like something that we necessarily have the ability to change, but that's up for debate as well.

[7:45] Dan Tracy: If we all decided not to work for him anymore, things would change.

[7:49] Joe Carroll: Well, and that we're gonna talk about that because here was you you actually said you were like, you know, we should get on the show and talk about this. And I'm frankly I'm freaked out to talk about it. I am. And I'm scared to talk about it because of like I know that Scott Rudin's not gonna listen to Guys Who Like Musicals, but like it's still out there.

[8:14] Dan Tracy: And so, like the last audition that I had before the world shut down was to was to replace, was to replace in To Kill a Mockingbird. I remember. And I I made it, I had a bunch of callbacks and I made it to the end. And the casting director said, you know, hey, will you come back later uh today to read for Scott Rudin? And I was like, you know, this was just about a job.

[8:46] Joe Carroll: This was about a job, like a, like a life changing, a job that I've always wanted. I've always wanted to do plays, I've always wanted to be taken seriously in that way, as we, as we both do. And it was, it was a huge opportunity. So I didn't get it. That's okay. He was, he just kind of sat behind the table. You know, nice to meet you. Thanks, good job. Off you go. I think he gave me one note.

[9:11] Dan Tracy: And but like why I'm freaked out to talk about it because, like, I'm we are in this this capacity as actors, like, where we need health insurance, where we want to work, where we want to tell stories, we're not movie stars, we don't have enough money to not work. And now we need to take a stand about about this guy.

[9:38] Joe Carroll: And that is literally the reason that we unionize. We unionize so that we have a collective voice so that I don't have to be scared of the scary producer. Right. Hearing what I have to say and holding it against me. And our union has said nothing. And I don't want to pass the buck because yes, we're individuals, and yes, we need to stand up for what we believe in.

[10:04] Dan Tracy: But like if these allegations are true and the guy, the guy physically assaulted people, that's not just like a bad boss. That's not just somebody like being a hard ass at work. And yet here we are talking about it. And like all I wanted to do was try to replace in his show, which I know is a place of status, and I know that like getting to be in a Broadway show is is a place of of great of great status.

[10:30] Joe Carroll: But like Karen Olivo walks away from Moulin Rouge because in part due to the lack of response to his abuse. And like that takes some unbelievable balls, some unbelievable gusto and and strength and and you know stictuativeness to do the right thing. And I don't know, man. It's it's hard.

[10:57] Dan Tracy: I don't know. That's kind of how I feel about it. It's like it's hard to talk about. I'm like, I don't I don't know what to say. I don't know what to do because it's horrible. Like if these accusations are true, and they say they certainly there's no reason to think that they're not, like, he should say something.

[11:16] Joe Carroll: He should have a statement. The New York Times should run something. There should be some ram, there should be some ramification for this. No, and yet that article comes out last week, and nothing is probably gonna sue them for defamation.

[11:29] Dan Tracy: This is the this is the hard part here. You're talking about one of the most wealthy individuals, the most powerful individuals in the industry. You want to talk about like how much money this guy spends on these publications.

[11:42] Joe Carroll: His ad spent at Hello Dolly was 150,000 a week. It was written about in Forbes magazine because it was one of the reasons why the uh original investors of that show were not being uh recouped as quickly as they should be. The show was a huge hit, they sold out every week, and yet he was still spending 150,000 a week to run this these ad campaigns.

[12:01] Dan Tracy: And that's you know, at that time in 2018, and at that time he was also had Sweat, 1984, and then the next season was Carousel. And I don't know if you remember, but I certainly remember all of those banner ads on everything for Carousel. Two page ads and in new newspapers, and and you know, I can't necessarily speak to any of this stuff as like fact.

[12:24] Joe Carroll: This is just like my rudimentary research about what I can see, but 150,000 a week times 52 weeks is 7.8 million dollars and you know Playbill.com is not making millions and millions millions of dollars so a lot of these places are gonna be scared this is a huge I mean if he's running three shows that's at eight million dollars a year ad spend that's 25 million dollars.

[12:24] Dan Tracy: Yeah, I mean we're joking about my reading the ne reading the pa reading the paper version of the New York Times as I do it was like there was there was the full page it was like it was the full page of Carousel the two full pages of of Hello Dolly Mockingbird had two full pages with a fold out the leaflet fold out with a fold out with a with the leaflet fold out which was like and like honestly like I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist about it I really don't but like how does that you know what I'm saying how does that not relate like you were saying that's what I'm saying somebody's gonna spend that much money on your publication you know it's it I I think the only way that things happen is if Hugh Jackman pulls out of Music Man.

[13:37] Dan Tracy: Right. Hugh Jackman and Sutton Foster pull out of Music Man and suddenly because it shouldn't be on Max Clayton to pull out of Music Man because that's what I'm saying. It shouldn't even be on Karen Olivo. It shouldn't be on the people who like it we need support we need theater owners we need like you know yes we need support we need support from the top.

[14:02] Joe Carroll: And it seems like an issue that needs to be addressed among those stakeholders.

[14:08] Dan Tracy: Yeah, those people at the top. But at the same time, you know, collective action does make change. And as we've seen in all of the political movements in the last year in places like Georgia, you know, people can make change. And can a f you know, if all of if all of you out there decided to never buy tickets to another Scott Rudin show, things would change. You know, that's when you start to get the attention of a Coca-Cola, you know. When they start saying, like, oh, actually, collective action has shown us that we can now be bold, because otherwise the business leaders aren't bold. It's a really complicated issue.

[14:53] Joe Carroll: Right. Um I don't feel like I owe anything to Scott Rudin, but at the same time, I think you've highlighted something that is definitely a cop-out, and some people will look at as our cis privilege, our white cis privilege to say, but uh, you know, as from a career standpoint, we're in a position where we are still looking for health insurance. I'm not in a position to turn down work because I'm not in a position to uh be in that place in my career. So that's the that's the difficulty here is that to put this on actors to say you should not be in any Scott Rudin shows ever as a fan is not necessarily paying attention to the fact that like some of us don't have the some of us are living closer to paycheck to paycheck than others.

[15:44] Dan Tracy: And and I think what having having known uh known Karen Olivo as I do from working on Moulin Rouge, um, and we were just texting a little bit about, you know, I just reached out as it like to support her when that video came out, and and she throughout the entire Moulin Rouge process I realized that she is incredibly pro actor she is the most like she is maybe some would say I think to a to a fault I don't but like she is 100% behind the actor so we were trying to sort of collectively bargain as a as a cast to try to get points on the back end of production we were collectively bargaining to you try you know people were getting injured things were happening it was like this crazy and she was always like at the front of the march saying you know leading the actors into battle for those of us who feel scared to speak up you know and so she comes out and she's literally like she's like fuck it I can't be a part of this and and I just I I don't know it's incredibly inspiring and I just I wish I was in it's moments like this when I wish I was less scared.

[16:57] Joe Carroll: Yeah. So yeah I mean it's obviously a really complicated issue and it's easy to be afraid to say anything but you know we have to say something I think it's on us to take some kind of stance. It's clear that there was a culture of Dan like you were saying treating the little guy like shit right treating the assistants like shit treating the people in the office like shit um you know and that there's been there there was a a real sort of it came to a head a few years ago when like uh CIA and William Morris started having to pay I mean they still don't pay their assistants basically anything. I mean, I think the assistance of CIA and places like that make like 20 bucks an hour living in New York City.

But like you can't you can't treat people like that. That's a this like this old Hollywood thing or this old boys' club thing or whatever. It's where where you can just treat people like shit. And it's like there's a difference between being a tough boss and like a hard, hard nosed like to the grindstone, five AM in the office working hundred hour work weeks. There's a difference between that and throwing a fucking computer at somebody.

[18:07] Dan Tracy: Yeah. You know, and there's more examples of that. Andrew Feminella, the casting director posted a video on their Instagram about some of the abuse that they've seen as a casting director. They have a really great account that is definitely worth checking out. Um Yeah, casting by them. Uh casting by them. On Instagram I I think it's the same on Twitter. I know I just know the Instagram. Yeah, and and they've had a lot of experiences with this kind of workplace culture and that they've spoken about, which is definitely worth checking out too. And there have been other instances where this has been spoken about, where there are other kinds of abuses in the industry that have been covered up and that's all kind of speculation.

So there's a lot to happen, I think. We may be on the verge of the final stages of the Broadway Me Too movement where things actually start to kinda come out about people and things and actors and directors and producers and you know it's gonna be an interesting summer before we get back into the theaters.

[19:09] Joe Carroll: Well, and that's the thing that's crazy is like at the same time the the vaccination news could I mean, aside from the Johnson and Johnson stuff this past week, but like it almost couldn't be more positive. People, you know, tours are starting to talk about schedules in the fall and early winter, shows are starting to put in place. I was talking to some friends this week who um there uh so was talking to Max Clayton about it. That like, you know, what is the plan for Moulin Rouge and and you know, people getting you know, like having gym, you know, like they gotta get back in the gym and start taking classes on top of taking, you know, starting rehearsals and all this stuff. And so those things are starting to happen, which is so exciting, but also like there's a reckoning and shit needs to change.

[19:54] Dan Tracy: For sure. So do your research, be conscious of where you spend your money, and let us know if you have any thoughts that you'd like us to share. Um we quickly kind of want to shed light on another issue which is happening all over the Twitter verse, which is uh something that we were hesitant to speak about as again, white cis men on a podcast called Guys Who Like Musicals. Obviously, we're completely aware of how gendered we are. And we're we're probably on the wrong side of this conversation to be weighing in, but we thought that the the um the issue itself being presented on the show at least would make space for the conversation among fans so that you can kind of go away and do your own research and figure out how you feel about what's going on.

[20:45] Joe Carroll: But there's been some talk about um Lauren Patton's character and Jagged Little Pill that we wanted to discuss.

[20:53] Dan Tracy: Yeah, and also just that one if if we've learned anything this year, um, and that bringing up issues that are maybe difficult to talk about and failing slightly is better than not talking about it at all. So if Dan and I sit here and offend anybody, um, we're sorry. And and we're just gonna try to be try to be better, and we wanted to try to, we wanted to bring this issue to light again as two wickedly um privileged white dudes. Um, but uh Jagged Little Pill. This this week there was an article um that was written by Christian Lewis, who is a uh non-binary freelance theater writer um who's written for New York uh American Theater, Huffington Post, Broadway World Medium, um, and Out uh and various things.

[21:41] Joe Carroll: Um C. Lewis reviews on Twitter is their handle.

[21:46] Dan Tracy: Um we just we were we saw this article and we thought it was worth talking about. So um Lauren Patton's character, according to this article, was originally written as a non-binary character in Jagged Little Pill. They them pronouns, et cetera, et cetera.

[22:01] Joe Carroll: Yeah. And what this article alleges is that there were numerous references to Joe's non-binary gender. The character used they them pronouns, had a fight with their mother about gender, uh, and they were dead named various things, and that that was stripped from the show uh before it came to Broadway, right?

[22:09] Dan Tracy: Before it came to Broadway. Um, and so but then after the show comes to Broadway, um, that uh uh Lauren Patton's character Joe is no longer non-binary, and the change is kind of unaddressed for the most part uh throughout um press and interviews and the writings about the show.

[22:41] Joe Carroll: Um, and then Lauren Patton tweeted something that said Joe was never written as anything other than cisgender, and that it was the writer Diablo Cody and Diane Paulus who chose to alter the character.

[22:55] Dan Tracy: Um and it's something that that the non-binary community was very excited about before the show came to Broadway because there's basically no representation of of trans non-binary queer characters uh on stage.

[23:09] Joe Carroll: It's one character in Head Over Heels is the one that is pointed to in this article. Otherwise, there's absolutely no representation for non-binary um people on Broadway stages, which is pretty upsetting for that community because there are so many non-binary human beings who are huge fans of Broadway. It's just completely not seeing their own existence represented.

[23:34] Dan Tracy: Right, yeah. Right, right. There's just there's no representation whatsoever.

[23:39] Joe Carroll: Right. Um, and so there's and there's a lot of there was a lot of talk about in this article, which we're again we we point you all to you should you all should read it. It's it's it's really remarkable that there's a there's a history on on stage and on screen with transphobia, um, and you know, with shows like Tootsie and the Upcoming Mrs. Doubtfire and and um uh Something Like It Hot, where where the joke, the butt of the joke is is the trans experience.

[24:10] Dan Tracy: So the butt of the joke is you know Robin Williams' hairy legs or what you know, whatever the whatever the like that is, they're they're they're just pointing to that, and like that's the joke. And it's incredibly offensive. It's incredible for uh especially for people for trans people.

[24:27] Joe Carroll: Um and so there's this movement on Twitter, or you know, people are calling this out to say that if Joe was a non-binary character back in Boston when they did the out of town, that they should return the character to its non-binary roots. The understudy is a non-binary performer.

[24:46] Dan Tracy: And she have that be represented on stage.

[24:50] Joe Carroll: Right. And so, you know, it's worth reading about, talking about, um, you know, I think that one of the things that that Dan and I, we we have we're represented fucking everywhere. You know, like we have never, we've constantly, and you know, there was, I forget which book it was, but one of the books that that we read this year in trying to learn learning about it may have been uh Abraham X Kennedy's book about being anti-racist, that like anything that if you are a straight white Christian man in those four categories, anything that diverts from those four categories has been oppressed and and is a is a minority that that has been um that has been oppressed, right?

[25:34] Dan Tracy: And so Dan and I sit here as all of those things.

[25:37] Joe Carroll: I don't know. I'm rambling a little bit. No, I think, you know, what the article calls to is that with so few trans and non-binary roles in American musical theater, it's really important that we recognize these themes when they are there.

[25:57] Dan Tracy: Now it sounds like there could be a lot of things that could have happened with Lauren and with the creative team. Maybe Lauren wanted the character to be non-binary, and the creative team never really agreed to that, and there was some kind of disagreement about the representation of the character, which is very easy to do. It's very easy, not acceptable necessarily, but she may have been trying to make some sort of cultural step, but then the creative team decided that they shouldn't do that. Maybe the article points to maybe because she's a cis white woman or just a cis woman in general, that she shouldn't be playing a non-binary person, which may have been the right call, but if it was originally, it's just really complicated.

And it's complicated, super complicated. And the point being that we need to be more aware of our trans representation and create opportunities for non-binary performers and have non-binary characters played by non-binary people. Non-binary people should be the ones telling their own stories.

[27:09] Joe Carroll: Right.

[27:10] Dan Tracy: Right? We don't necessarily want to see some non-oppressed group telling the story of an oppressed group. We're trying to move away from that habit.

[27:17] Joe Carroll: Right.

[27:19] Dan Tracy: Joe, yeah, Joe and Joe and Dan writing a script about the trans experience. It's like, it's not, you know.

[27:25] Joe Carroll: No thanks.

[27:26] Dan Tracy: And I just, you know, one of the things that I think is tricky though, you know, with Lauren Patton in particular, is like, again, we're actors, we're proactors, like I know that actors aren't perfect, but she was, she's an actor who got cast in a role. Yeah, again, I don't want that to sound like a cop-out, but it's like if the people behind the table, if the people who create a show put her in the show, then why is it her fault? Why does she need to walk away?

[28:02] Joe Carroll: Well, that's super complicated, Joe, because I think a lot of people nowadays are calling for actors to have more courage to say, it's the same thing like if you're a white person who gets cast in a Hispanic role that you should probably say, I don't want to do that. And just be like looking, appearing to look something that you're not is not necessarily something that we're supposed to do anymore. And that I think is the issue here is that fans are saying, like, I think there's a chance that Lauren thought she was doing the right thing by trying to represent an underrepresented community on the Broadway stage. I think she probably thought she was doing the right thing, but then it ended up backfiring. And that's what's really hard. I don't think that there was any malice here.

[28:49] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[28:50] Joe Carroll: This is different than Tootsie. This is not the butt of somebody's joke.

[28:52] Dan Tracy: And yeah, right. And I completely agree. And I also I want to just go back to what I said and be like, no, I'm with you that people marginalized communities should be played by marginalized communities. Like, I really believe that.

[29:06] Joe Carroll: Right.

[29:08] Dan Tracy: That okay, so we know we get that. But as we get closer to that line, like I played a gay character in college, it was one of the best experiences of my life. But so as we move and as things change, like my high school theater director used to say when there was a change in the show, like, hey, this is a change, and we're like, okay, this is a change. This is good. This is a good change. We're moving forward towards something better. Change is good. That like we're moving towards something better. We're moving towards a world where characters can be played by the people that they represent.

[29:41] Joe Carroll: Um, and have that representation so that when, you know, a non-binary person sits in the audience and watches a non-binary person on stage, and then that person walks out the stage door and signs the playbill, they can speak to their experience together.

[29:56] Dan Tracy: I get it. I just, I'm like, it's just, it's tricky, man. Like I hear you.

[30:02] Joe Carroll: I hear you.

[30:02] Dan Tracy: So Lauren Patton needs to walk away from the show. Like that's what Twitter's asking. That's what certain people are asking. Certain people are asking the creative team to do that. And it's one of the stronger performances. I mean, she was getting a standing ovation every single night out of town for "You Oughta Know," you know.

[30:21] Joe Carroll: So it's hard.

[30:23] Dan Tracy: So what we wanted to do was point you all in a direction just to know what's going on.

[30:28] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[30:29] Dan Tracy: And you make your own decision. Make space for a conversation, even though our opinion on such a conversation is probably not one that matters, and we will be the first to recognize that.

[30:41] Joe Carroll: Totally.

[30:42] Dan Tracy: 100%.

[30:43] Joe Carroll: 100%.

[30:44] Dan Tracy: So that's what's going on in the theater this week. Um, so on one hand, it's like it all exists at the same time, though, you know, like there's good news and there's hard news where the theater is. There's some light at the end of this tunnel that we can get back on stage, but the stage should not be what it was before. That's the thing about all this time and all of these awakenings that have happened. It's like it can't be the same. Broadway can't be the same. Everybody thinks that it, you know, yes, it's been around for thousands of years and that it just isn't gonna return the same way that it happened, but like it can't.

[31:19] Joe Carroll: Nope.

[31:20] Dan Tracy: So if there's a move to strike, what are you doing?

[31:26] Joe Carroll: What am I doing?

[31:27] Dan Tracy: Well, listen, back to if we want to talk about the union shit a little bit more. Um, I'm wildly let down.

[31:34] Joe Carroll: Me too.

[31:37] Dan Tracy: Wickedly, wickedly wicked. I have not paid my dues. The other small piece of the week, you know, Eden Espinoza's Instagram post about not feeling represented by the union that we are all members of and therefore not paying her dues kind of went viral, and a lot of people were sharing it because you know it's come to that time when the union's asking us to pay our dues again. And I haven't paid since the pandemic started because I mean kind of because they said we wouldn't be penalized for not paying, but at the same time because it was not clear to me what the union was kind of doing to support us.

[32:12] Joe Carroll: And um, in like what to do or how to be safe, or you know, like especially in the beginning when it was so scary, it was just a little everything was kind of like, well, what are we supposed to do?

[32:26] Dan Tracy: And so now it's now there's calls, you know, there's a big march. I think tomorrow there's a protest march for union members to and they're gonna walk up to Scott Rudin's office and they're gonna walk to the equity office and speak their truth. And I think there's a movement inside the union, you heard it maybe here first, maybe, that there might be some talk of strike come the fall and people talking about picket lines. And I'm just curious if you had any thoughts on that.

[33:00] Joe Carroll: Put them on the spot.

[33:03] Dan Tracy: I mean, again, like I mean, from the guy, yeah, like, but from the guy who's like needs a job, you know, needs a job who's scared to talk about Scott Rudin.

[33:11] Joe Carroll: Right.

[33:12] Dan Tracy: Like, really? Like, this is, I, you know, how do you, how do you not? This is the thing that I think about, and I know that I'm a small fish here, but how do I go down there with a sign and picket outside of Scott Rudin's office and then try to walk in and replace in "To Kill a Mockingbird"?

[33:35] Joe Carroll: You don't.

[33:36] Dan Tracy: Exactly, you don't. That's the thing that people are asking of us.

[33:43] Joe Carroll: Exactly, exactly. That we say I'm good.

[33:48] Dan Tracy: Right.

[33:48] Joe Carroll: I'm not gonna audition for that. I'm not gonna work for him.

[33:52] Dan Tracy: Right. And so I think I just need to like we need to start selling some more shit on this podcast.

[34:01] Joe Carroll: That's right.

[34:02] Dan Tracy: That's right. It's tough, man.

[34:04] Joe Carroll: No, I mean I don't want to make fun of it. It's not something to make light of, but um yeah, I don't know.

[34:10] Dan Tracy: I don't know either.

[34:11] Joe Carroll: So if anybody knows it's easier for me to say uh whatever. You know, hasn't cast me before, why would he cast me in the future?

[34:19] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[34:20] Joe Carroll: But I get it.

[34:22] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[34:22] Joe Carroll: I think that's the problem.

[34:24] Dan Tracy: That's why we're here.

[34:26] Joe Carroll: I just want to live in a world and I know this sounds like fucking puppy dogs and fairy tales, but I just like want him to apologize.

[34:33] Dan Tracy: It's not gonna happen.

[34:36] Joe Carroll: I know.

[34:37] Dan Tracy: He doesn't accept wrongdoing. This is the other thing, you know he got sued 6.8 million dollars by Spotco last year for not paying them. Spotco is an ad agency, um 6.8 million dollars that they were owed for multiple productions, including the "West Side Story" revival, and Rudin said this is false and he countersued, right? What are you supposed to do?

[35:01] Joe Carroll: Well, there's somebody there, there's uh yeah, there's somebody else who loves to do that too, is a new resident of the state of Florida.

[35:06] Dan Tracy: Um, yeah, I guess that's just what it is. And I think that if we've come to anything, it's like that's just like what we gotta do.

[35:19] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[35:19] Dan Tracy: And I like, I don't, it's just crazy. I mean, think about like think about the people what we've had on this podcast who have worked for Scott.

[35:27] Joe Carroll: Oh yeah, I know.

[35:29] Dan Tracy: I know. I would say it's in the upper 90 percentile. People on this podcast have like literally gotten phone calls from Scott Rudin to be like, can you be in this show? We want you in this show.

[35:39] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[35:40] Dan Tracy: Right, right.

[35:42] Joe Carroll: So yeah.

[35:45] Dan Tracy: They're calling on us to say no. Just like they were calling on people to say no to Harvey Weinstein.

[35:51] Joe Carroll: I exactly.

[35:53] Dan Tracy: The crimes are a bit different, but still the same kind of power wielding. I don't know. What do you think, fans? What should we do? Should we throw in the towel?

[36:03] Joe Carroll: Twitter poll.

[36:04] Dan Tracy: Instagram poll, should we just uh well because I do think that's responsible. I mean, walking away, walking away saying I'm out, I think for someone like Karen is an incredible move of, you know, she's a Tony Award winner and a multiple nominee, and she's about as the kind of top of the heap as far as theater performers are concerned. You know, people are coming from all over the country to see her play a role, and for her to be like, no, I'm not returning to a theater community that's like that, it speaks volumes.

[36:40] Joe Carroll: I think if Joe Carroll walked away, it wouldn't have to say. They'd be like, thank goddess now I don't have to see Joe Carroll in this garbage.

[36:49] Dan Tracy: Oh my god.

[36:50] Joe Carroll: And then you that's so uh But I mean again, not to joke about it, but it's like I if I don't if you know if you don't laugh, you're gonna cry.

[37:00] Dan Tracy: So you could joke about anything. I mean, it's a complicated time.

[37:04] Joe Carroll: It's a complicated moment.

[37:05] Dan Tracy: And uh we still really like musicals. Thank God you got two guys who like musicals to weigh in on it.

[37:11] Joe Carroll: I'm sure that's exactly what you were looking for.

[37:14] Dan Tracy: But like please, please, please reach out to us. I mean the reason that we're talking about the reason that we talked about any of this today was because of the fans on Instagram. That's and that's probably a good way to end this conversation is to say yeah if you have a take for us that we may have missed, or if you disagree with some of our takes, please let us know loud and proud. It would be nice if you could put it in a DM so it wasn't public, but like if you wanna just go and blow up our spot, then I'm not gonna say drag us, it's okay.

[37:47] Joe Carroll: Yeah, that is the moment we're in.

[37:49] Dan Tracy: Totally, totally. And we love you and we appreciate you. Thank you very much for being here, for listening, for sticking around, and uh more fun stuff to come.

[38:02] Joe Carroll: Thank you for listening to Guys Who Like Musicals.

[38:05] Dan Tracy: We are now part of the Broadway Podcast Network.

[38:08] Joe Carroll: Woo!

[38:09] Dan Tracy: We are hosted by Dan Tracy.

[38:11] Joe Carroll: That's you.

[38:12] Dan Tracy: And Joe Carroll.

[38:13] Joe Carroll: That's me.

[38:13] Dan Tracy: We're produced by Ryan Kincaid, and Matthew Mucha is the social content manager. You can find us on Instagram at Guys Who Like Musicals, on Twitter at Musical Guys, or the old fashioned way at www.guyswholikemusicals.com. If you'd like a chance to be featured on the Ask the Guys segment of our show, please call 203-900-7990 and leave a message with your question.

[38:34] Joe Carroll: As always, thanks for listening.