This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Dan Tracy: All right, welcome to Guys Who Like Musicals.

[0:02] Joe Carroll: Welcome to Guys Who Like Musicals. This is very exciting because my agent called.

[0:08] Dan Tracy: And uh we have we got him on the phone.

[0:11] Joe Carroll: And uh Ben, I think you're calling me right now to say that I booked the job.

[0:18] Dan Tracy: The big movie job based on the TV show that's gonna be a movie musical based on a book.

[0:27] Joe Carroll: Joe's gonna be an enchanted everyone.

[0:27] Dan Tracy: Hey!

[0:29] Joe Carroll: Right? That's what the original enchanted.

[0:31] Dan Tracy: It's the original enchanted.

[0:33] Joe Carroll: It's not the sequel. It's actually a whole new there, it's a reboot. It's gonna be very exciting.

[0:38] Dan Tracy: He's playing Amy Adams, but as Amy built around me.

[0:43] Joe Carroll: He's real transformational stuff.

[0:44] Dan Tracy: But that's why you're here, Ben.

[0:46] Joe Carroll: It's great start.

[0:47] Dan Tracy: It's too start.

[0:48] Joe Carroll: It's to tell me that I booked the job.

[0:50] Dan Tracy: That's it. That's all the time we have for today. Thanks for joining us.

[0:52] Joe Carroll: Guys Who Like Musicals. Thank you for coming. I'm so happy to see you.

[0:56] Dan Tracy: Thank you for coming on here.

[0:59] Ben Sands: Of course. Thanks for having me.

[1:01] Ben Sands: And now I will say the actual reason that I'm here, which is that, you know, I was aware that Joe had this podcast, obviously, with Dan. But I hadn't really listened, but I am a, I listen to a lot of podcasts in my life.

[1:18] Ben Sands: And what I ended up doing in the midst of all of this pandemic, is I popped over to the feed, and suddenly I saw, oh, they have all of these clients that they've interviewed.

[1:31] Ben Sands: And clients of yours. I mean, I literally went on the list. It was like there were 10 or 15 people that I was like, oh, I should listen to this, I should listen to this side of it.

[1:38] Ben Sands: All of a sudden I had listened to hours upon hours basically called. And it turns out I'm a fan of the podcast.

[1:46] Ben Sands: So I of course called Joe to tell him how much I was enjoying the podcast, and then said, by the way, if you ever need a guest, I'm happy to come in.

[1:53] Ben Sands: I saw that Dan's agent got a slot well before. So I'll just tell you that I would be happy to do this if you are interested.

[2:01] Joe Carroll: So that's how it actually I aged myself a slot on your podcast.

[2:05] Dan Tracy: I am so glad that you did. And I, you know, it's true, Dan's. Dan's agent was one of our early, early guests.

[2:13] Dan Tracy: I think the truth is that Joe was scared in the beginning to bring on Joe was afraid to put himself out there.

[2:21] Joe Carroll: So now we've gotten into this. So Joe's just booked us like eight guests. He's like really feeling it now. He's feeling confident, you know.

[2:27] Dan Tracy: Good. Good.

[2:29] Ben Sands: Well, I've been encouraging Joe to feel more confident his entire career.

[2:33] Joe Carroll: See, I think you should be trying to do the opposite. Pull it back.

[2:36] Ben Sands: This is good. This is good. This is what the next 40 minutes is gonna be. It's balance, it's balanced, Joe. You need both of these energies in your life.

[2:43] Joe Carroll: Uh yeah.

[2:44] Ben Sands: So an actor is saying his lines, and then out of nowhere, he just starts singing.

[2:52] Ben Sands: Fox Eximity.

[3:00] Ben Sands: Don't cry for me.

[3:17] Joe Carroll: How do you find them?

[3:19] Ben Sands: Um, yeah, it's a question that I probably get asked more than any other question, to be honest. And it's very difficult to describe because the way that people get agents is really different for every single actor.

[3:33] Ben Sands: It's all individual. There's no prescribed way to do it. Otherwise, everyone who wanted to do it would just do it.

[3:40] Ben Sands: Right. Um, what it really comes down to is relationships and work. So basically, obviously, you know, there are great schools like the one, the ones that you both went to and showcases, and that's a place where the industry knows that they're going to see sort of vetted talent who has been trained and obviously had to go through an audition process to get in there before the training.

[4:06] Ben Sands: So that's why we're all there is because it's like, oh, this university, this institution has vetted this talent. So I know that I'm seeing talent of a certain level. Then basically, there's everyone else.

[4:18] Ben Sands: So when everyone, the other versions of that are going to see shows. Um, so there are, it's kind of a fallacy that you must have an agent to get a job. That actually is completely untrue.

[4:34] Ben Sands: There are lots of different pathways to jobs, particularly entry-level jobs. If you think about it as a business the same way that every other business functions, there are entry-level jobs as an actor, and those are those sort of smaller, lower paying, lower budgeted shows.

[4:50] Ben Sands: Um, agents will all good agents, anyway, go to all kinds of shows because you never know what the right opportunity for your actor is gonna be, what the right showcase for your actor is gonna be. You may learn something new about the talent you already represent.

[5:09] Ben Sands: So, you know, we go see all kinds of shows. So a lot of times I'll see someone, whether it's in a stage show, or whether it's, you know, a guest star on a television show, and I see it and I spot that person, and I really like their look, their energy, their work, something about that.

[5:25] Ben Sands: And then it's about the relationships that exist. So, you know, casting directors through open calls, managers who we work with all the time, most other actors on our list that are, you know, those are the referrals that I take seriously because those artists, I trust their taste.

[5:45] Ben Sands: They are vetting that talent for me and then putting them in front of me for me to evaluate to see how do you fit into my world. So there's a million different ways in.

[5:54] Ben Sands: And I always sort of say, like, rather than focusing on getting representation, focus on the relationships with creatives, focus on the gatekeepers to the actual jobs, which are casting directors, focus on those relationships. And then when you're working, agents will come to you.

[6:14] Ben Sands: The right agent will come to you as soon as you are working.

[6:14] Joe Carroll: Right.

[6:14] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[6:18] Joe Carroll: That's really good advice. It's like Jessica Voss gave that same advice. It was part networking and part just making it happen and finding opportunities to showcase yourself and just networking within that, you know, taking a chance.

[6:32] Ben Sands: Jessica's a perfect example. She's a client of ours.

[6:32] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[6:35] Ben Sands: And I mean, I love her. I love her deeply. She's so funny and she's so talented. One of the most fun interviews ever.

[6:35] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[6:43] Ben Sands: She was, I never talked to her, I'd never met her before. And it was like, she's just, it's wild. Her manager, Jeff Berger, is someone who we share quite a few clients with.

[6:53] Ben Sands: And I was aware of who she was because she has this big social media presence. And then I've been, you know, sort of following her being alphabet and wicked. It's a fairly, fairly relatively new relationship.

[7:03] Ben Sands: And basically, I had a client who was in Jerry Mitchell's new show that was happening in Atlanta. And Jeff represents Jess, who was also doing the same Jerry Mitchell show in Atlanta.

[7:14] Ben Sands: And so Jeff and I were talking, and we decided to go down together to go see the show because we have a relationship. And he was saying, you know, Jess doesn't have an agent at this point, you know, blah, blah, blah.

[7:24] Ben Sands: And it turns into I'm in Atlanta having coffee with Jeff and Jess before going to see the show. And then that turns into a meeting. It's it happens really organically, depending on who the person is.

[7:37] Ben Sands: But agents, yes, part of a big part of our job is helping procure employment, but we are certainly not the only way that jobs come about. And in fact, most major jobs come about as a combination of what the agent is doing alongside pre-existing relationships with creatives that you know from past work with casting directors who have been bringing you in over time and are your fans.

[8:05] Ben Sands: And that final casting process where it's the group of creatives and casting in the room together, having the conversation about who's getting cast. There are a bunch of different people who contribute to that final conversation.

[8:18] Ben Sands: And it's of course the director and the writer, if the writer is living, the, you know, it in terms of musicals, it's music directors and choreographers and casting directors and producers.

[8:30] Ben Sands: And ultimately, in order to get a major job, you have to have at least one champion in that room who is saying to all those other people who are in charge of the casting process this is the person, this is the actor that we need to hire.

[8:30] Joe Carroll: Right.

[8:43] Ben Sands: The agent is not in that room. We are not having those conversations when we're at the final casting. We help get opportunities for you to get into the room, but then once you're in the room, you know, ideally we have this idea that you walk into a room, you audition, and you get the job.

[8:58] Ben Sands: That's not how it is at all. You're building relationships over time. So when you go in for, you know, Pat Goodwin, who you guys interviewed, who I like dearly, he's just like the most wonderful man.

[9:10] Ben Sands: Uh he's so good at his job because when he auditions people, he remembers who they are, he remembers what they do. He takes stock over a period of time, and then he can represent to his buyers, which are the creatives that literally employ him and put and pay his bills.

[9:28] Ben Sands: He can say to them, I believe in this actor, and I have seen over the course of the last year or 10 years or however long it is, that they've consistently come in and been prepared and done good work.

[9:39] Joe Carroll: And that means that those creatives can feel really good and confident about hiring that actor based on Pat's endorsement, if that makes sense.

[9:39] Dan Tracy: Right.

[9:48] Ben Sands: Yeah, so that's really, really good perspective, I think, because you forget that it's still the top of the totem pole is this relationship idea and this absolutely over time, you know, you need a champion in the room. That's really really smart. I love that.

[10:07] Ben Sands: Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. And that there are a million different relationships that can lead you back to representation.

[10:14] Ben Sands: If the question was like, how do you get an agent? You know, then you said something to me when we first started working together that you know, I had an actor approach me and was like, I want to, you know, would you send my stuff to Ben Sands?

[10:28] Joe Carroll: And I was like, and I got all weird, I got all weird about it because I was like, I don't want to send, you know, send, I don't want to, I don't know. Like, should I send their headshot and resume to my agent and be like, you know, sort of their champion?

[10:43] Ben Sands: And you told me you're like, listen, who if anybody asks you, just send it. If you want to give somebody a personal endorsement, if you want to say, like, hey, this person is amazing, I am going to listen to your endorsement of a certain person because of that relationship, you know.

[11:00] Joe Carroll: So I've done that a couple times in our time on a in our journey working together, but it's like, you know, that relationship can come from anywhere, like you said. It's either it can come from casting, it can come from creatives or different people you worked with.

[11:12] Ben Sands: That's super and also I feel like especially you and I, Joe, but honestly, my relationship with all of my clients, I hope there's enough respect and understanding there that if you're sending me someone that you're really passionate about, obviously I'm going to give that person a really good look, make sure that I'm spending the extra time to look at the materials and to watch the videos and to probably do a YouTube search or Google them or whatever.

[11:37] Ben Sands: I'll go the extra mile to really evaluate based on the strength of our relationship. But I also know that you respect what I do enough to know that even the most talented person may not be the right fit for me.

[11:51] Joe Carroll: Totally, right?

[11:51] Ben Sands: And that's based on a whole bunch of variables that have nothing to do with who that actor is or how talented they are.

[11:51] Joe Carroll: Right.

[11:58] Ben Sands: And so I know that you respect what I do enough to know that just because you love someone, just because I love their work doesn't mean that we're the right agency for them.

[11:58] Joe Carroll: Right.

[12:09] Ben Sands: There's so many different factors in that conversation that, you know, all an endorsement says is please give this person an extra look, which honestly is exactly the same thing when, and the reason why I really get this is because it's exactly the same conversation I have with casting.

[12:09] Joe Carroll: Right.

[12:26] Ben Sands: Right. It's to say, you trust my taste. We have a relationship based on the strength of that relationship. Please give this actor an extra look. Please, you know, don't watch 10 seconds of their self tape.

[12:42] Joe Carroll: Please continue to watch for the entire thing all the way to the end, please.

[12:46] Dan Tracy: Right, right, right, right, right, right, right.

[12:48] Joe Carroll: And then let me know.

[12:49] Dan Tracy: You mean casting directors don't watch our entire tapes?

[12:53] Joe Carroll: You mean when they send us 20-page packets, they don't watch the whole thing for the stuff?

[12:57] Dan Tracy: Wait, this is the first time I'm hearing this.

[13:00] Joe Carroll: Wait.

[13:02] Dan Tracy: I've wasted how much time?

[13:05] Ben Sands: It's never a waste.

[13:06] Dan Tracy: It's never a lot of things.

[13:07] Ben Sands: It's not a waste, Dan. You're always working the muscles.

[13:10] Ben Sands: You're always working the muscles.

[13:13] Dan Tracy: Is the end of your workout in the gym a waste?

[13:16] Ben Sands: Yeah, yeah.

[13:17] Joe Carroll: He's right, Dan. It's just a burnout.

[13:21] Joe Carroll: Oh my gosh. I want to, I want to know. I always love asking, and we asked Pat Goodwin the same question. Just your journey to becoming an agent. You know, there's so many jobs in entertainment. Dan and I are actors, but we also do 45 different jobs to try to make ends meet. But I sometimes feel like people don't even realize the breadth of opportunities there are to work in entertainment.

[13:42] Ben Sands: You went to Boston University, you majored in theater. Were you, uh, were you a like an acting concentration?

[13:48] Ben Sands: I was. I was acting, I was an acting major. And this is back, I mean, BU has changed a lot, but when I was there, it was really like acting was the major. And then they had just literally just with my class, started a theater studies offshoot. And now it's a whole different program that's focused differently. But I so I'll go back even a little bit before then, which is I actually was a professional child actor. I grew up in Cincinnati, Ohio, and there is quite a scene there. And I worked at Cincinnati Playhouse in the Park, which is a Tony Award-winning regional theater. I did a bunch of shows there. The largest PBS studio in the country is in Cincinnati, Ohio. I did a television series for PBS. The tapes are somewhere, and I hope they never see the picture of the stuff.

[14:31] Joe Carroll: We're finding them. Listen, hey Matt, hey Matt. I know you're listening to this, Matt. Can you just make sure that you find that? Thanks. Thanks. We're gonna want to put that on the timeline this week.

[14:42] Ben Sands: But then I, you know, I then I decided I loved it, and I found a community there as this like weird gay kid in Cincinnati, Ohio in the in the 90s, uh, in the early to mid-90s. And then I basically decided that I was gonna take it seriously. I did a summer program at Northwestern, so I'm a cherub. That's what that program is called, uh, National High School Institute, um, which was really it it's it was really foundational in establishing my respect for the discipline of the craft. And that led me to say, okay, I really want to go to a conservatory program. I went to Boston University. They have a partnership with Lambda, so I did a study abroad in London for six months at Lambda, and then so you know, I started this whole journey when I was 11, then cut to I'm 21 and graduating from school because I'm young for my grade, and I moved to New York, and I had already kind of been aware that this thing, this industry that I devoted 10 years to, this one career that meaning acting that I did that I devoted all of its time to was probably not the right fit for me anymore because I'm a kind of personality that is I'm fairly tightly wound.

I'm an anxious person, uh, I crave structure. I moved to New York, loving New York as much or more than the business. I never wanted to leave New York. And as an actor, you go where the work is. I also, because of the nature of what BU's program was at the time, it was churning out pretty famous actors fairly regularly. That's what the program at that point was really um trying to do. So a lot of my friends, particularly the people who were a couple of years ahead of me, um, were finding pretty massive fame and success pretty early.

[16:35] Ben Sands: And so there was a really intense experience that I had my senior year where a former upperclassman who I was really close with was shooting a big movie around Boston. She had a huge part. It was with Julia Roberts as the star, and her co-stars that had the same size parts as her were Kirsten Dunst, uh, Julia Stiles, Maggie Gyllenhaal. Like that it was Mona Lisa Smile. That's the movie. I buried the lead there. But basically, she came in to have dinner with me because we were really close. And we went to dinner at just sort of this regular university restaurant, and it was her, Julia Styles, Kirsten Dunst, and me. And it was, I mean, it was wild for a senior in an acting program to have that experience and see close up what not what the work is like on set, but what the life is like of these people who are, you know, sort of the version of success that my very ambitious mind wanted at that moment.

Right. And through the course of our dinner, there were four or five different times. People came up to the uh table to talk to us, and they asked, like, they were like, oh, it's my 21st birthday, come have shots with us. Well, you know, there was a whole lot of interaction with strangers, fans. And, you know, to their credit, they're amazing at what they do. And they were really gracious. And they were, you know, that's part of the job of being a famous actor, is that you have people who come up to you who are moved by your work, who want to have some interaction with you. That is a really beautiful thing that successful actors do. And I do not have that personality. I am shy as can be when I'm talking to people that I don't know.

I don't want to talk to people unless I know them. I'm like, I it's just not, I'm not outgoing and gregarious in that way. That's not who I am. So I looked at that version of success and I said, wait a minute, wait a minute. Yeah. If that's what success looks like as an actor, and I say that I want to be an actor and I say that I want to be successful, but I don't want that at all, then what am I doing with my life? What am I going towards? What am I working towards? Right. And that led that started me on a journey where I started to say, okay, I, if I don't want to do this, but I've devoted 10 years of my life with an incredible amount of time within those 10 years. I've always been a pretty disciplined type A work, work, work kind of person.

Then what can I do other than this? And I care about the industry. I care about the message. I care about arts and what that what the arts have the power to do in our society and in our world. So I wanted to stay within the industry. So I ended up going through a series of internships. I interned for a casting director for six months full-time. It was all musical theater. While I was there, we did like the original Bear a Pop Opera off Broadway. We did the Boy From O'Maz, we did Dracula the Musical on Broadway. That was crazy. We did Brooklyn, the musical on Broadway. I mean, it was a lot, it was a lot. By the end of that experience, I decided I never want to be a casting director because it is literally the hardest job that there is in the theater. I'm convinced of it.

[19:43] Ben Sands: Yeah. They get none of the credit when everything goes right, and they get all of the blame when things go wrong. It's I I sort of look at it, I always equate it to like what the stage manager does in the actual theater, which is like the hard job. They're there first, they leave last, they make sure everything runs smoothly, and no one thanks them for it. It's crazy. I and I say that as like one of my very best friends in the world is the stage manager, but like I saw that as part of the casting process, and I was like, I I don't, I don't have the constitution for this. I so then I interned for a producer, I interned for a director, and then ultimately I went in and interned for my agent at the time, um, which I'm still amazed that he let me intern for him.

And uh immediately I was like, oh, this is great. Um, and part of it is that I really see agenting as part of the service industry. We have relationships with artists, but it's it is ultimately our goal to help artists that we believe in achieve their dreams. So it's really rewarding to call an actor. I mean, I still remember Joe, the conversation when I called you to say that you booked the prince in Cinderella on Broadway and you had made the leap into principal roles on Broadway. Like I mean, I get chills thinking about it. That was so fun to know that this is something you've devoted years and years of your life to, and I believe in you and I'm pushing you, and but I'm I'm a small part, you're the one who goes in the room and actually books the job.

But that's the part of the of the job that I really love. And then, you know, another part of the job is protecting clients. So when they're in in the theater or within when they're on sets, I always say, like, agents are the ones who actors call on the worst day of their professional year when everything goes wrong, or they're in an unsafe situation or whatever happens, they call me and it's my job to fix it. So it's a little bit of crisis management. But the nice part of that is I find solutions. That's part of my job. I'm I protect the actor and I find solutions. So that keeps me really interested. And then I also get to go to an off, well, when it's not a pandemic, I get to go to an office every day.

So I have structure to my day. I never have to leave New York unless I'm choosing to for business trips. I'm not like flying to New Mexico to shoot a series for who knows how many years. So that kind of uh the lifestyle of an agent, the constant consumption of art is something that I really love. I get to do that. So I I sort of I saw this combination of factors. So when I was basically a year out of uh conservatory, I had already started down the path where I was interning, and then pretty swiftly was like, this is what I want to do. And I very quickly became his full-time assistant and gave up uh acting entirely. And then I just sort of was in the right place at the right time. So basically, he and another uh agent at that company left and started their own company, and they asked me to come with them and they franchised me as an agent in part, I think to incentivize me to go, which was really nice.

Um, and so I went with them, and suddenly I was, you know, 24, 25 years old and a full agent in New York City. And basically I've been doing it ever since. And once I started at that, obviously there was a whole world that grew inside as I got a more nuanced view of what agents do and how they work with talent and how the business works and how television and film works, because that's been a huge interest of mine, you know, basically since I was a kid. And so I found ways to sort of grow myself and with within the business and within the business in New York. Um, so it's been a whole journey there. But it's uh yeah, so that's how I ended up. I just love it.

[23:31] Joe Carroll: I love that. It's so that's so full. And I like, I wonder, was there a moment when you're cause you were sitting at that agent at that agency and you're sitting at the desk and you're like, this, I know this is exactly what I want to do. Like, like you like it, it it you had learned a bunch of stuff you don't want to do, and then you were like, no, this fits. This is like a glitch.

[23:49] Ben Sands: Yes, yeah. Yes, I remember in fact, I remember this specific moment, which I was talking to another assistant uh at the at the office. And at the time I was an intern, but I we had put out all of these auditions, I think it was for Wicked, honestly. Um, and we had put out all of these auditions, and I had organized this list of like, you know, it was 15 or 20 appointments. It was a it was a fair amount of things to do. And then I was talking to her, and I sort of gave her a to-do list of like, we'll do this, this, this, and this. And this is someone who's honestly was she was above me in the pecking order. So it's kinda I was getting a little big for my britches. But at the time, you know, I graduated from school and I was feeling kind of lost, and I didn't know where I was gonna find my confidence.

And I'm this sort of shy kid who is like I I felt like my feet landed on the ground, and I found confidence in this moment of being like, oh, I know what to do. I actually know exactly what to do and how this should work. This isn't hard. Is it challenging? Yes, challenging in a fun way. Right. But it's not hard. I actually think it's easy because it's a perfect fit for who I am and how I function. I have an eye for um organization, for understanding the process of the way things work, for communicating with two different parties who aren't necessarily speaking the same language. And I sort of can get people to the same table to speak the same language and understand where someone else is coming from.

[25:23] Ben Sands: And I sort of in that moment, I would I it felt so good and it felt so right that that's the moment that I was like, oh, I'm gonna trust this. I'm gonna trust this. This is what I this is what I need to be doing.

[25:36] Joe Carroll: Yeah, that's so cool. I just I want that for everybody. I want that for all the people in the world to have that moment, you know, you feel it, your feet under you know, hit the earth that way. I just love that.

[25:47] Ben Sands: We always do a deep dive on a project. We talk, you know, to actors about their journey through a project. But I love hearing the behind the scenes about the journey of an actor to getting a role or a project, you know, when agents are like, oh, this is a very cool story, and I'll lead with one. And I don't know if this is the one can I tell like a bit a bit of the Laura Dreyfus story? I don't know if you know the one I'm gonna tell, but sure, but the one I remember this. So my friend Laura Dreyfus, we did once together. We went on a date on the politician together, which was really silly and hilarious. She, you told me that she so she goes off and she does a series regular for one season on Glee. And that last season or the final season. And play that really hilarious character on the last season of Glee. And they're looking for somebody to play Zoe in Dear Evan Hansen, right? That's the character.

[26:41] Joe Carroll: It actually it goes it goes back before.

[26:43] Ben Sands: Oh, okay, okay. Well, you tell it. You tell it, you tell it. Um, basically, so I did not I did not get her that job. She she had an offer to do the reading. Okay. So she did the reading of Dear Evan Hansen. This was a very early informal, just sort of around the table, and she did it. And then she booked Glee. And then there was a workshop that was sort of the next stage, not even the first like public workshop. This is just sort of as they were going. And we somehow worked it out so that she could do both, which was they really helped the Dear Evan Hansen people actually helped accommodate her going to start shooting Glee and then cut to the end of the Glee, you know. So she did that workshop, she went out and shot Glee, and obviously that was the final season, so it's not like she had any commitments after that.

And then they were doing the first big presentation at 890 Broadway. Yeah, you know, obviously things change a lot. There was an ensemble in the show at that point. There was it was it was the bones were very much there, but they were really finding exactly what it was sort of eventually going to be.

[27:52] Joe Carroll: Got it.

[27:53] Ben Sands: And they decided that they were going to have a real casting process for the role of Zoe because they've never had a casting process. I never fault a creative team or a producing team for saying, you know, we've never actually searched, we've never, we don't know what's out there. Let's make sure, especially as we're, as this show is telling us what it wants to be. Let's make sure that we're really hearing it through the voice of and through the mouths of different actors so that we really understand what it is that we're building and can get inspired in the right direction. Um but I knew what it was, and I knew how I had read it, I had listened to some of the music. I loved it. I thought it was just so, so good.

Um, and I love the story that it was telling and what it was putting out into the world. And so basically, I had the conversation with casting, and I was sort of like, what's the issue here? Like, what's the hesitance? Uh and basically, you know, they described that they wanted to hear it from a lot of different people, and they never did a search. And I said, I totally got that. And then basically at some point there was a concern about maybe she might be too old. And I was like, she's playing a high schooler on television right now. Every week, it is literally airing. We episode three has aired of this season, and she is playing a high schooler on Glee. And, you know, I understand the way that creative teams are.

I'm sure that this creative team was not watching Glee at that point. You know, you never know what people are into. And so basically, I found ways to pull the episodes from the internet and then cut together a couple of clips. And it wasn't even the full season, it was just a couple of episodes, but it was like this is this will show you with the camera right up in her face to show you really what she looks like right now, where she's playing the age of this character just to prove. And look, whether or not that helped secure her the role, I have no idea. You know, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna take the leap to taking credit for it. But I like to think that I helped push it over the finish line. Yeah, it was she was the right person for the role. I mean, she was brilliant.

[29:53] Joe Carroll: Yes, and it was just that extra, it's that extra, like it's the extra push. Like you said. It's like, you know, like where the actors are running a race and then the agent just comes and shoves you over the finish line. Like that, I just love that story because it's like that extra effort that we don't know. I'm sure you didn't call Laura as that's happening. You know, you do that behind the scenes, you do that definitely. You know, you're not gonna be able to do that.

[30:16] Ben Sands: Well, and part of it is that like part of my job is to protect the actors. Like the casting process is brutal. It's pretty. It just is for everyone, for everyone, not just actors. It's hard for directors, it's hard for Cassander. Everyone has relationships with really talented artists. No one wants to disappoint artists that they believe in. And so it's difficult. Yes, there are the there's there's the really exciting moment where you have your cast and you get to inform your cast, but there was there's a final callback where there are at least three for every role, usually. Right. And you you say yes to one, but you're saying no to two other people for each role that you really love their work.

Because they wouldn't be in that final callback if you didn't really love their work. So it's right, it's brutal. And part of my job, I think, is helping actors navigate the audition process and half the battle, more than half the battle, honestly, because if you've if you're on my list and if you're in those rooms, you're a really talented actor. Half the battle is literally just protecting the head space, is just allowing the actor to continue to have the confidence to walk into a room where the odds are stacked against them always. But to say, I can walk in this room and I will be this actor who gets the job, it is me. That requires an insane amount of confidence, honestly. And confidence that I've never had, which is part of the reason I was like, no, no, thanks in terms of like the career of acting.

I was like, I don't have the fortitude for it. But I feel like part of it is like I don't want to tell the actors about doing those kinds of things in general because I want the actor to believe that they can just walk in and get it anyway.

[31:56] Joe Carroll: Wow. There are so many emails I've gotten from my agent that's like, oh yeah, literally, actually, after I went in for the first, it was probably after the reading they did of Dear Evan Hansen. Uh-huh. And I was in the room for the whole team, you know, Benjamin Justin and and Michael and everybody's there. And it went really well. And I was like, okay, sick, I'm gonna get a callback for this. And then I get an email that it wasn't going forward, and the feedback was they think you're too handsome for the world.

[32:30] Ben Sands: There's no way that that's true. There is no honesty because I you're Connor, clearly.

[32:37] Joe Carroll: Yeah, it was for Connor. But there's very basic, sort of when we're especially when we're dealing with musicals in particular, I feel like we're dealing with archetypes a lot. You're dealing with a lot of storytelling that has nothing to do with the personality. It's literally like I and I point to this a lot in film and television because I think it's really um it's really relevant there, where that's a visual medium. There are all kinds of storytelling. Um they're all they're all different parts of the storytelling world that happen on film and television without the actor opening their mouth or saying a thing, without the actor even acting or thinking or looking in a certain way. It's literally like we look at these types on television and it tells a lot of the story.

And, you know, part of what also sort of drew me to agenting is that I my my favorite kind of storytelling is storytelling that plays with those archetypes, that turns those archetypes on their heads. And I feel like from the very beginning, and I again, like I'm not taking credit for anything. This is just I think I lucked into personally being pointed in a direction professionally that the industry ended up going naturally. I try to move the needle as much as my can and I can in my little way. But in general, I think the the industry itself moved towards having an understanding of representation matters. And on the one hand, there's the emotional aspect of that, which I can really personally relate to as someone who, you know, I came out very young.

There was no one in my suburban Cincinnati conservative high school who was out at the time in the 90s, and I came out my sophomore year. And then before senior year, Will and Grace came out and was a huge hit. And all of a sudden, literally, I went from being a kid that was sort of around and gay and weird and into theater and the arts, and I became one of the most popular kids in school by senior year because of Will and Grace, the bullying that I went through, the also all of that, it really changed. And it was because all of a sudden it was cool. Like there was a there was a Will and Jack prototype. All of the popular girls suddenly wanted a gay best friend. And of course, I had my crew of people who I was really close to.

It's not like I like jumped over some kids' crew. That's not me at all. But my day-to-day experience changed because of this television show that came out. And because of that, again, it's another sort of foundational part of who I am, that when I got into the business, I was having the very early conversations with, you know, the people at Law and Order SDU and the people at Telsi sort of saying, like, well, does this role have to be male? Does it have to be white? Does it have to be, you know? And then that conversation luckily has progressed to say, does this character have to be trans, has to be cisgendered, could it be transgendered, could it be non-binary, could it be have you thought about size diversity?

Have you thought, you know, like those kinds of stories are always the most interesting and most creative to me because it takes these archetypes that we think we understand and then flips it on its head and hopefully, hopefully, fingers crossed, changes the way that the audience sees society in general and interacts with other people. The whole point is um honestly, I think our the power of our business is bringing our society closer to love. That's the foundation of what I hope our business does is literally take the way that everybody, the average American human operates in the world and says, can I look at another person who I don't know or who doesn't look like me and have more empathy, more compassion, understand that my experience is not everyone's experience.

[36:28] Joe Carroll: Um so yeah, I mean, that's a long tangent to talk about it, but that's what drives.

[36:35] Ben Sands: I didn't know great. I wasn't searching for you to find a way to make me feel better about this feedback that may or may not have been true. I was more trying to point to the fact that I think that it's admirable that agents have this wherewithal of making sure that they don't tell you everything and that sometimes you want to know, but then if you do you actually want to know, because you probably don't want to know. And that's just something that I've always found interesting because my agent, I think has also done a really good job of that.

[37:01] Joe Carroll: Absolutely. Feedback in general is so interesting too. I it's something that I thought that I have thought about a lot and that I've sort of I've gone on a journey with because at the beginning of a career, very early in the career, I think of feedback is super helpful because it's sort of like you're looking, you're getting your C legs about what it's like to be in an audition room. You have to understand sort of like, are there major red flags of what you're doing wrong? But eventually you reach a point where the quality of your work is not in question. Honestly, both of you have reached a point in your careers where you have worked enough that clearly what you do in the room works. You wouldn't have gotten jobs and you wouldn't still be working if that if you didn't have the quality to back that up.

And so then it reaches a point where if you're worrying too much about feedback and you're sort of getting to a place where you're thinking about what the team wants instead of what your take is on the material and how you interpret it, um, then you run the risk of losing what is so special and unique to you in that moment, you know?

[38:04] Ben Sands: That sort of like ignorance is bliss sort of thing that like, you know, the more you think about it, the worse it makes it. You just need to like go in and do your thing and yeah, because it can limit your point of view. And like your rhythms are gonna be right for some things and they're not gonna be right for other things. And that's right. That's okay. That's okay because there is something, and the most exciting work happens when you connect to what's uniquely you as an actor and bring that into the room. And obviously that's not right for everything, the same way that it's not right for everyone. You don't want to be everyone's, I don't know. What's that line from uh best in show? Yeah, I'd rather be um not vested show.

What's it called? Uh I'd rather title the show. Yeah, title show. Uh I'd rather be one person's everything as opposed to every, what is it? I think something like eight person's favorite thing as opposed to eight thousand or eight thousandth person tenth favorite thing or something like that. Yes, that's it. That's it. Yes.

[39:02] Ben Sands: I'm sad I don't, I loved that show. I saw that show in the front row. I loved that show. I'm sad I don't remember that lyric anymore. It was so good. Um, what was your, what's been your greatest challenge of your career so far, Ben?

[39:17] Ben Sands: Takes a deep breath. Yeah. Greatest challenge. I've uh, I've been really lucky, honestly. I I um yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I don't have a good answer to that. I don't have a good answer to that. I think the biggest challenge was figuring out what I wanted to do. And then once I've done obviously there have been setbacks, it's not like there are never setbacks, but I am uh I think I started life as a pretty depressed, weird kid. And my my versions of figuring out how to cope with that is um my I have incredible parents, and my my dad taught me a gratitude list very early. So as a result, I've kind of turned into a really rosy, optimistic, glass half full kind of person, but I always kind of roll my eyes at that because like the teenage version of myself looks forward and is like, oh, you're so cheesy.

That's ridiculous. But like I I think there is, at least in my life, there's a lot of I have a lot of gratitude. There's a lot of great things, and even in the midst of the pandemic, which honestly, like, so I became a partner in the New York office, uh, well, and the agency in general, but I kind of run the New York office. That happened officially in 2019. So we had sort of one year where it was just absolutely incredible and firing on all cylinders, and it's been incredible. And then 2020 hit, and probably well, I guess this is the answer. The answer is the pandemic.

[40:42] Ben Sands: Yeah. Well, I was gonna ask how you were able to innovate and how you know agents, you know, had to, we've all had to innovate in the last year, but how what that was like for you.

[40:53] Ben Sands: Yeah, um, the pandemic has been nuts for everyone. So again, like I, you know, there I speak through the lens of I have a lot of privilege and I have been really lucky in a lot of ways in the midst of all of this. But it's certainly been a challenge. I mean, a big part of what I love about being an agent is the uh other agents in my office. We're we're all very close, we're a tight community, and uh, you know, we love going to see theater and coming back the next day and talking about it in the office, and you know, whether you're whether it's theater or a movie, you know, we go to Sundance every year, and then we get to talk about all of those movies and New York Film Fest, everything. And uh the we've we've all really felt the loss of that community time, being able to just get in the same room and be with each other.

That's it's really hard to sort of do what we do, which is a lot of logistics and it's a lot of navigating different personality types and having difficult conversations. Um it's been really difficult to navigate that, you know, just sitting with my husband who's not in the business at all in my one bedroom apartment as he listens to every phone call I have because he doesn't have a choice. Hi, Gwendell. Yeah, that's the that's been tough. Um that's been tough.

[42:20] Ben Sands: The other side of it is that we've become experts in, and by we I mean the agenting community, the rep community in general, have become experts in things that we never thought that we would. Um, because part of protecting the actor and making sure the actor is safe is understanding health protocols, understanding quarantine and travel rules, understand, you know, there's this whole sort of functional brain that every agent really has to have in terms of not just the creative side, but understanding how a job actually happens, what contract paperwork is like, what the legal rules are versus interpretations of rules. And then the other side of that is, you know, that that's as it relates to actors.

The other side of that is now as a partner and running an agency, understanding, you know, the rules and regulations of what it takes in the midst of a pandemic to reopen offices. Yesterday I was literally on a webinar for an hour and a half going over regulations of reopening an office space and what it looks like. That has nothing to do with actors. That's just making sure that I'm keeping my employees safe. Right. Aside from, you know, payroll and insurance and all of that, you know, that's all literally a part of my job. So is it the most fun part of my job? No. Right. No. Right. No. But ultimately, also, I, you know, again, like glass half full Pollyanna attitude, but um, you know, I'm I I feel lucky that I get to have those conversations. I feel lucky that I'm in charge of my own destiny in that way. I'm I'm really lucky. So yeah.

[43:57] Ben Sands: No, I I love it. Um, what uh now this is you got into there's been so many incredible snippets over the course of this hour that I I would consider advice. I would consider like anybody who wants to be an actor, wants to be an agent, or loves an actor or loves an agent. Uh you know, there's so much good stuff in here. But do you have any specific? I know I'm sure you get asked for advice all the time. Um, but this is a two-part question. If you have any advice for young actors and any advice for Dan and Joe.

[44:30] Ben Sands: How about how about this? How about this? I I have I have advice that I try to follow for myself every day. Um I certainly have uh all kinds of tools set up to help me examine what it is that I really want. Intentions are everything, I think. Um, you know, for me, and everyone's really different. I operate from a place of really recognizing that my experience is unique to me. For me, during this pandemic when it's been so difficult, I have a daily yoga practice. That daily yoga practice literally helps me center, breathe, get back into my body, into my brain. And instead of being sort of driven by emotions, I'm driven by my authentic self and what I actually want. So I think it's very easy to get wrapped up in what other people think is important.

And those other people, particularly when you're young, it's your parents, it's your teachers, it's your friends. As you get older, it becomes, you know, maybe your parents still, if you're lucky enough for that, they're still around, or your siblings, or your spouse or whomever. Um, but ultimately the only person who you can really know entirely is yourself, but it requires a lot of work. It requires a lot of time dedicated to introspection about what is going to make you specifically happy. And then the goal, if you can do it, is to figure out ways to articulate that authentically and then pursue those things that are going to actually make you happy as opposed to make you feel important, as opposed to impressing other people.

The more you can sort of take, I my my therapist for a long time said instead of your eyes focusing out, focus in. Get to know what it is that you actually want, and then pursue that. And part of the that was because I had my therapist from the time that I was, you know, a teenager, that that really helps me navigate my transition out of being an actor because basically I realized oh, this path I'm on is not going to make me happy. Even if I get the success in a way that I want to like impress others and that's about others, I'm not going to be happy within the midst of that. So, what's the point of that? And I do believe that there are lots of different ways of achieving happiness for different people.

Even when I look within myself, there's social justice work that I really care about, there's uh community work, there's outreach work, there's healthcare that I find really interesting. There's all there's all kinds of different pathways. And what my job is is to continue to connect to what I really want and then make sure that I'm pursuing that. And I believe in the ability for everyone to get what they want out of life. And I think if you're really clear with yourself about what you really want, and then you find ways to be proactive about achieving whatever that is every day, if you make a list and then you break it down, and then you break it down even further to something that's you know more and more accomplishable.

Every day you'll move a little bit closer and a little bit closer and a little bit closer to your goal. And then maybe one day you'll achieve the goal and then you start on the next one. But you know, it's you'll you'll achieve whatever it is you put in the time and the energy and the effort to get. So just be really intentional about what it is that you're pursuing.

[48:07] Joe Carroll: Yeah. Oh man, that's really good advice. Joe, you should write that down.

[48:12] Joe Carroll: I'm gonna write that down, and I'm gonna start making some lists.

[48:17] Dan Tracy: We're working on Joe's daily task manager.

[48:19] Joe Carroll: Yes, that is that's my intention.

[48:22] Dan Tracy: That's your intention for me as the country.

[48:25] Joe Carroll: I appreciate it.

[48:25] Dan Tracy: The co-time. Thank you.

[48:28] Ben Sands: I'm trying to help you then.

[48:30] Dan Tracy: No, if Joe worked hard as hard at everything else as he does at being an actor, we would be set.

[48:38] Joe Carroll: But alas, what he really wants is to be a big actor.

[48:41] Dan Tracy: And you know, I don't believe it. I don't know. Like you're on that part of his life. And I want Joe to be the biggest star on the planet.

[48:47] Ben Sands: Well, you said that thing earlier about like going to Albuquerque to shoot a TV show for God knows how long. And I'm like, man, that sounds I've never been to Albuquerque, I've never been to the desert. That sounds odd.

[49:01] Dan Tracy: Let me tell you about Albuquerque, okay? They could have filmed Breaking Bad as a documentary thing. No offense to anybody who lives in Albuquerque, but you drive through there and you're like, oh yeah.

[49:08] Ben Sands: Dan and I walk what hold on.

[49:10] Dan Tracy: Go ahead.

[49:10] Ben Sands: I just have a big question. So, so you know, I'm sure you feel really proud to have found talent. And when you discover people, you feel how does it feel to have discovered such shot duds? Man, you know what, Dan? How does it feel? Are you disappointed all the time, Ben?

[49:28] Ben Sands: I saved it till the end, Joe. I knew it was good. Like the way you started to smile with the Cheshire cat grin, and I was like, he's gonna say something about Joe does knew. No, no, I'm totally. Actually, I do I do want to tell the story of how Joe came into my life, though, because I think it's very useful because we think like, oh, Joe went to University of Michigan, he graduated from University of Michigan. He had a showcase, and that's where we met. Actually, not true. And this is it's one of those things where it's like, even if you're going to a school, that's not, you know, it there are no guarantees. So, Joe, because he was a senior at University of Michigan, and because Rachel Hoffman is so connected to the University of Michigan, she I think she sort of introduced you to a couple of different people as as she was doing master classes, and then he auditioned for a couple of things.

And before his showcase, she sent me a couple of self tapes, and she was like, He's in the mix for a couple of things. I think he's someone you should know. Obviously, when Rachel Hoffman speaks, we all listen. She's a queen. Right. Um, and so I watched those tapes, which were incredible. And then he was in town for a callback well before his showcase, and we sat down and met. And I remember sitting down and meeting with gosh, you must have been 21.

[50:35] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[50:35] Dan Tracy: 21 year old Joe Carroll.

[50:37] Joe Carroll: And he walks in looking 30 years old. I mean, there's just he I've always said like Joe has looked 30 since he graduated from school.

[50:45] Dan Tracy: Don't say that too loud, though. He's a little, he's a little sensitive. Be a little careful with that one. That that's one that we might want to keep away from his ears.

[50:53] Ben Sands: Good for you.

[50:53] Joe Carroll: Well, Dan, Dan, Dan, we have Ben and I had this exact, we had a part of this conversation a few weeks ago, and I'm excited about it.

[50:59] Ben Sands: I'm good.

[51:01] Joe Carroll: I've looked inward and I had a lot of therapy.

[51:04] Ben Sands: He's not a therapy. He's really ambassador. I'm super stoked to start playing Young Fathers.

[51:09] Joe Carroll: Good. Um, but Ben continue to talk about how great I am. Go ahead.

[51:13] Ben Sands: We always say, we always sort of say, like a lot of agents are sort of like, you book big jobs when your insides match your outsides. Yes, right. Right. You're looking and sort of in in a professional capacity, obviously. You're you're sort of looking and vibrating at the right frequency for what your insides are. They sort of match. Right. And, you know, what I was so impressed uh with Joe by in that initial conversation, was he was just really grounded. He knew exactly who he was. He's always been Joe. Like that sort of like the intelligence, the um, the ability to sort of be honest and in a moment, that is that's it's a really unique quality, particularly in someone that young. And then obviously he was competing for some pretty major stuff at that point.

But then he showcased, and I I hope you won't take this the wrong way, Joe, but his showcase was not amazing. Like he showcased fine, but it wasn't great. There are there are sort of the stars of the showcases and whatever. And uh and we were, you know, we said we're not gonna, you know, we're not gonna force you to make a decision, we're not gonna sign you until after your showcase. I understand that's a big thing that you've been building toward it. It becomes this whole thing in college where it's sort of like it's all leading to this moment, which I think is also not true, but also not helpful. It feels true in the moment, and I want you to have that experience and whatever. So he showcased, and he showcased fine.

Um, but ultimately, I already knew him. I already knew who he was. I already knew what he was capable of because I'd seen those incredible self tapes. And so what what was a moment that could have become a total feeding frenzy with all of the different agents sort of circling and trying to convince him? It became like there were only a few of us who were really coming after Joe at the time. And it was nice because it meant it was nice for me because it meant that he signed with me pretty quickly, which was which was great. But I felt great about it, and he felt great about it, and it ultimately was the right fit, and he was so good. So, like it's it's yet another example of just like showcases are one audition.

Think about how many you have in your career as an actor, like it's one, and you're always gonna have an audition that goes a little south. It's like it's fine, it happens. And I I'll never forget after that showcase. Um, really, I don't know what I with blind faith or something. Like, yeah, I had a I had two, I had three meetings. Um was a dud from my perspective. I didn't I didn't dig it. The uh the second was was I liked, but they weren't totally feeling me. And I walked back into to artist and rep that was called Stone Manor Solange at the time, and I said to y'all, I'm like, I'm ready to work. I want to work with you. I'm ready to work if you are. Let's let's do it. Literally playing my like like bluffing, basically.

Basically bluffing. I hadn't, I had no, I had nothing else. And luckily, I I completely hit the jackpot because I I was terrified I wasn't gonna get representation. Of course, we know now that that's certainly not the end of the world when you're 21, but I was so I don't know what gave me the the gall to come in there and be like, I'm ready, let's go. There was no courting at that point. There was no like, how are you feeling? How like you guys, I was just like, I'm ready if you are. And Timstone was kind of like, uh, what uh okay. Um, well, we'll give you a call. And then I I got in the elevator and I was like, shit, I've no fuck I what did I do? Oh, they hate me. And and then you guys called me as I walked, I got out of the elevator and you said, turn back around and let's let's let's sign and sign on the dotted line.

And it's been that's so funny. It was I was I was terrified. I was like, I'll uh it it totally works out the way it's supposed to, I guess, is the end of the story because after that showcase and I only had a a couple of meetings and the meetings didn't go very well. It was like you only need one. You need one great person to believe in you. And Ben, I just cannot thank you enough for that.

[55:17] Ben Sands: And that's what Joe said to me, and I did the same thing.

[55:20] Joe Carroll: Did you with BRS?

[55:22] Ben Sands: Yeah, I've told you that story. I thought you were telling my story for a second. I was like, is he telling my story as if it's his? But it was just that it was the same story. I literally went in and I was like, I've met with a bunch of people. I kind of took it in a step further. I said I've met with everyone, and I don't want to be at a big place. I wanna sign with BRS. This is what I want. Chuck Bodner was like, You're fucking awesome. This is gonna be great. Let's sign. And we did, but I had had it. So funny.

[55:46] Joe Carroll: That's so funny because Joe, what's funny in your the what was illuminating to me about your story is that you got into the elevator and you were like, oh shit, they hate me, blah, blah. And this is what I mean about there's all kinds of things that you have no idea about, right? Which basically, we don't because we work collectively, and Timstone's no longer at the agency, but we have a bunch, you know, he retired, but we have lots of other agents around. And what you don't know is we all have to have the conversation. We all have to agree. No one in that room has the power to say, let's sign. Right. No. Like we meet you, and then we all have a conversation where everyone is able to talk about it. Right. And then we offer, but you didn't know that walking in. And that exact same situation is a metaphor for every other situation in the business. There are all kinds of variables that you know nothing about.

[56:39] Ben Sands: Exactly.

[56:39] Joe Carroll: Exactly. And I just am so thrilled at how it's worked out. And I I love you. I appreciate you. Um we our last question that we ask uh everybody is um the unreachable star question, which is kind of like, what do you see a million miles in the future? Something you're pointed towards, something you want to accomplish. Could be personal, professional, artsy activists.

[57:03] Ben Sands: No, it's a really thing. It's a really good question. And honestly, I've I've been an agent now for over 15 years, and I've sort of my I always said from the very beginning, I remember going into my interview with Scott Manners, my now business partner, who you know, he's a very intimidating old school kind of agent. Yeah, and I sat down to talk with him, and he was like, What do you want? And I said, I want to own, I want to be a partner at an agency, an agency that I care about and that I like, uh, and that I love the talent and I love the people I work with. And he was like, Well, that's bit that's a big thing. And I've now been there for 10 years, obviously. That's not like that just happened overnight.

Um, I I definitely proved my worth there before I became a partner. Um so that sort of big unreachable thing, I got right before the pandemic. Yeah. Now I think the big unreachable thing is just rebuilding strong, as strong, stronger, making sure that I'm I want to make sure that I'm keeping up with the business and with the conversations on the business side while still connecting to that core conversation about representation and authenticity that I I just feel like that's that's sort of the next um stage. You know, there's a there's a there's a real reckoning going on in on Broadway, but in entertainment in general. And you know, there's all kinds of different stories that we've seen that we can point to.

Some people call it cancel culture, I don't, I really call it um accountability culture. I'm not here to cancel anyone, but I think it's important to hold people accountable for bad behavior. I also think it's really worth um understanding the culture that created different personalities and the times that we were in. Like when I started as an agent in New York, I this is I always just sort of point to when I started as an agent in New York, electronic submissions didn't exist. Self-tapes required actual hard copy VHS or DVDs that you would mail. Um there were three television shows in New York, and all three of them had law and order in the title. And honestly, I haven't been around for that long.

Like it's it hasn't yet been 20 years. A lot of the people who are understandably and and I'm very happy that they're being held accountable for their behavior in the past. It's hard to imagine as people who live in this moment now, what kind of a world they came up in and what kind of behavior was incentivized in those systems to succeed. And then you reach a point where you're succeeding, and uh then obviously culture changes. And my hope is that it evolves. My values have always been very present. I try to be very um inclusive, I try to be empathetic, I try to really listen. I think that's like the most important thing is just listening to other people's experiences and not thinking that we have the answers to everything.

Um so I guess my goal is really to stay on that road and make sure that as I continue to push our agency forward and our artists forward, that I'm really open to new points of view, that I'm really listening to uh who's out there and what listening to what they're saying and pushing me even further in the direction of empathy and openness, if that makes sense.

[01:00:46] Joe Carroll: That makes that perfect sense.

[01:00:49] Ben Sands: I I adore that. I I thank Ben, I I cannot thank you enough for today for this, for literally everything for my career, for my health insurance, for my apartment, for you did all that yourself, Joe.

[01:01:05] Ben Sands: I just helped a little.

[01:01:06] Joe Carroll: I just helped a lot. You helped, you helped massively. I I can't, I can't say how grateful I am for you. Thank you.

[01:01:12] Ben Sands: Thank you for talking with us.

[01:01:15] Joe Carroll: Um of course, thank you guys, and honestly, thank you for putting out this podcast because in a I stumbled onto it at a at a time in the pandemic when I was feeling really disconnected from this community, which is uh one of the things that I love the most about the business is this community of actual human beings who are just trying to create something um beautiful and moving. And uh it's been really hard for us to do that for well over a year now. And it's work like you're doing right now and like this podcast that is keeping us connected so that we have the next step to go to. So thank you for that.

[01:01:55] Dan Tracy: That's the nicest thing, anybody.

[01:01:57] Joe Carroll: Thank you for framing it like that.

[01:01:58] Dan Tracy: I know.

[01:01:59] Joe Carroll: Jeez.

[01:01:59] Dan Tracy: That's let's okay. I'm gonna keep doing the podcast, I guess.

[01:02:03] Joe Carroll: Because it is been it's been hard uh during this time, but you're totally right. I miss the community too. And uh it's been a little a slice to have this.

[01:02:12] Dan Tracy: So all right. I I love you. Thank you for today. Thank you for your time. Now you gotta run run off and and go find me a Marvel movie.

[01:02:20] Joe Carroll: Um you got it.

[01:02:21] Dan Tracy: You got it.

[01:02:23] Joe Carroll: Good God.

[01:02:24] Dan Tracy: One step at a freaking time, Carol.

[01:02:26] Joe Carroll: I know.

[01:02:30] Dan Tracy: Thank you for listening to guys who like musicals. We are now part of the Broadway podcast network. We are hosted by Dan Tracy. That's you and Joe Carroll. That's me. We're produced by Ryan Kincaid, and Matthew Mucha is the social content manager. You can find us on Instagram at Guys Who Like Musicals, on Twitter at Musical Guys, or the old fashioned way at www.guyslike musicals.com. If you'd like a chance to be featured on the Ask the Guys segment of our show, please call 203 900 7990 and leave a message with your question. As always, thanks for listening.