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[0:00] Jeff Malone: Welcome to Half Hour with Jeff and Richie, the podcast where we take a deeper dive into the latest shows we see, sharing our insights and opinions on the performances, storyline, and everything in between.

[0:10] Richie Grasso: In today's episode, we'll be discussing the new off-Broadway musical, WHITE ROSE: The Musical.

[0:15] Jeff Malone: Whether you're unable to catch the show in person or you're looking to enhance your experience after seeing it, this episode is for you.

[0:21] Richie Grasso: And as always, we want to give you the heads up that this episode will contain spoilers.

[0:26] Jeff Malone: So if you're ready to dive into this production, stick around with us.

[0:29] Jeff Malone: I'm Jeff.

[0:30] Richie Grasso: And I'm Richie, and we're thrilled to be your hosts for today's episode.

[0:33] Jeff Malone: So without further ado, let's start the conversation about WHITE ROSE: The Musical.

[0:56] Richie Grasso: The musical is based on a true story and follows a group of university student activists who stood up to Hitler in Nazi Germany, risking everything by creating and distributing leaflets that challenge his propaganda.

[1:07] Jeff Malone: The show is currently playing at Theater Row, and it has a book by Brian Belding.

[1:11] Richie Grasso: Okay, so before we dive deep into this show, I think we'd like we should start with our bold statements about the piece and see how this unfolds in the discussion.

[1:20] Jeff Malone: Richie, I'm dying to know your bold statement on WHITE ROSE.

[1:23] Richie Grasso: Here we go.

[1:24] Jeff Malone: Oh, are you?

[1:26] Richie Grasso: Okay. Mine's gonna be a quick little bold statement here. This show had great potential with a great concept, but it did not have enough time for us to fully invest in it.

[1:39] Jeff Malone: Hey.

[1:41] Richie Grasso: Um, this was my bold statement about this was this didn't work.

[1:47] Jeff Malone: Mm-hmm.

[1:48] Richie Grasso: I think that's and when I read this amazing caption about this amazing true story of these university student activists who stood up to Hitler in Nazi Germany. Like what an amazing thing. This sounds like this is going to be like we're going to tell this important story, which is so true. How important and wonderful is this story? Yet so much of this did not work.

[2:09] Richie Grasso: And I was unfortunately very disappointed in what I saw on stage for maybe 90 to 95% of it, unfortunately, is a high, high percentage of it I did not like.

[2:19] Jeff Malone: Yeah, which it's kind of unfortunate because you know, we've now seen two musicals in the same season, one on Broadway and one off-Broadway that kind of are tackling the same topic here, which in Harmony, we see these students kind of in the show.

[2:38] Richie Grasso: I think the Julie Banco character is part of this whole group of people that are distributing the leaflets. So as soon as I saw this musical, I was like, oh, WHITE ROSE, this is. I was like, oh, I'm very interested in this because I feel like this is the same people that we saw in Harmony, and I would love to see a little bit more of an expanded story on them.

[3:01] Jeff Malone: So I was very intrigued by it because I think what the show is doing in terms of like marketing and idea and concept, it was great. It just didn't fully hit the mark.

[3:13] Richie Grasso: I don't really even know if I agree with you on marketing because I don't the playbill has a picture of someone on it. I don't even know who this is. I don't know.

[3:22] Jeff Malone: I was very well, not that marketing. I'm talking more about just in general, what the overall concept and story of the show is.

[3:30] Richie Grasso: I see.

[3:30] Jeff Malone: Yeah. I I'm listen, this is when we talk about a lot of Jewish culture struggle pieces. I looked at things like Cabaret and Fiddler on the Roof and Prayer for the French Republic, and I say, oh, use those three wonderful pieces of theater. Why are they working? Is it because Prayer for French Republic is taking us into different time periods? Is it because Fiddler on the Roof and Cabaret are using comedy and dance to tell the story? There's so many other elements, but when I look at something like Harmony and WHITE ROSE, I feel like both of these shows were like, let's just sing now. Let's just go here now. Oh, put the chair down here now and say this line now. It didn't seem like it was doing anything with telling these important stories.

[4:12] Richie Grasso: Well, this is yes. Because I think there's two reasons. When we like go to the actual concept here and the book, we're kind of talking about like with Harmony. Did it fully hit the mark with the book? And we're, you know, we already have that podcast on that episode. But now with WHITE ROSE, it's the same thing. This is already a true story. So it's how are we enhancing this story and telling more about this story? And I always think like a lot of writers that are coming into the scene, I think you need to dive a little bit more into what it is you're actually trying to get across. If the main character here is almost the leaflets and it's not your cast, why are we not developing that storyline around the leaflets even more?

[4:59] Jeff Malone: These university students literally wrote these leaflets and put it out there for people to read about Hitler and Nazi Germany. And they were getting them across. And I think so many times it was taken away, and we have random kind of storylines about these people that really have nothing to do with what it is that the show is actually trying to tackle. So from that standpoint, I don't think the show really was well developed in that sense.

[5:28] Richie Grasso: Not to mention, tell us actual things about I don't, there were so many mini subplots going on. I actually didn't think this needed to be musicalized. I didn't think the score did anything. There was one or two songs, the stars song that sung, but we have so many songs about stars and musicals that, like all songs about stars in Les Miz and Mean Girls, they all seem to work because they're about dreaming and hope. And so but there was moments, yeah, where you're looking at the score. The score didn't enhance the storyline at all. A lot of the times I'm like, why are they singing right now? But it was also very stiff, like with I mean, everywhere you looked, it was like the set was like, okay, put this chair here now. Say this line. The book was very cheesy, corny. It was, it was not going deep enough.

[6:18] Richie Grasso: Um, I just I was just constantly disappointed as the show kept going on. And then I thought to myself, okay, one saving thing was the lighting. I actually thought for a small space like that, it was lit pretty well, and there was some nice lighting going on to show different locales. But you have a set, there's a band that's too loud in the back. I can't hear the actor. I was sitting in the third row. The sound design was very off. It didn't, I couldn't hear the actors half the time. Then I heard the actors louder in the wings backstage talking during the show than I did actually through their microphone. I'm not trying to over exaggerate that. Um, it just seemed clunky and it didn't seem like it was ready.

I feel like the scene is more workshopping. Um, there were some nice costume moments, but it just seemed like it was thrown together and not done. I don't know. I was so disappointed because I know so many pieces that are ready for an off-Broadway Theater Row, midtown Manhattan space like that. And you're talking about a commercial run, and oh, I was just so disappointed in just how this was presented because what an important story to tell, and what a poor way of telling it in this musical, unfortunately.

[7:28] Jeff Malone: Right, which is why I kind of want to bring it back to the actual concept here, because I feel like what could have made it better was really developing this whole leaflet idea more for us as the audience member. If we're supposed to be watching this to learn from things, I think we should have had more moments about what was actually getting put into those rather than the relationships between the students. I don't know if we're really necessarily supposed to care about the relationships between them. And if that was our job, I didn't. So the fact here is I cared more about oh, what are they trying to tackle? What's the trial, what's the messaging that they're trying to get across to the members of Germany or around the world? Because we later learn within the show that there are different groups writing these leaflets out, which was such a it felt like such a small moment in the show, and I don't think it really did it justice.

[8:22] Richie Grasso: And I'm kind of saying, like, why? And then we go to a step further towards the end of this show where they're holding the leaflets in their hands, and then they throw them into the audience, which I think should have been a bigger moment. And I think it's overlooked as a moment in this show because if you didn't get one, you're kind of like, oh, well, I wonder what they say. And if you did want get one, did you read it? But like why where was the building to that moment that like they're building the leaflet, they're writing the leaflet, we're gonna spread the leaflet, and boom, here everyone gets a leaflet now. But I'm or when we're leaving the theater, you know. Look, I'm gonna go back to a show that we did see what the constitution means to me.

Everyone got a little pocket constitution to read. Where was that moment that we're we're leaving, and it's like here are the leaflets, here are the leaflets, read them, spread them. This is such an important message. It's such an important message even now with everything that's going in the world with the Jewish community, and it's just like it just felt very overlooked.

[9:28] Richie Grasso: But I got one, and some of the excerpts from it, which I'm assuming are real excerpts from the actual WHITE ROSE leaflets of history. The lines in your adopt resistance wherever you are. We will not be silent. The white rose will not leave you in peace. Support the resistance, distribute the leaflets. And it's all these just it's like very important things. And for this musical to have the dialogue that it did in the singing that was just like okay, and it was rushed, and there was so many subplots, and I didn't really feel like anything was any and the singing was okay, but there was not enough ensemble numbers. There was tons of slow ballads, tons. Every song was a slow song. Um not to mention that there was just this disconnect of I don't know, I didn't really it's such a shame. I'm like so angry, kind of because there's this should have been told in a better way, done it more stylistically, maybe, or maybe.

[10:21] Jeff Malone: But when you think more, but when you think more about this as well, you as an audience member should be leaving that theater saying, like, I want to join the WHITE ROSE. I need to be part of it. Think like Newsies. When you're it's watching a production of Newsies, and like they're the small, you know, group of boys, and then it grows bigger and bigger, and you by the end of it, you're like, I want to be part of the news. Like this, it felt like you were supposed to feel that way, but then you didn't.

[10:53] Richie Grasso: I will commend. Listen, I think when the actors and singers up there, they were really committed to what they were doing, right? So whether the book and the score was written one way or the other, at times I do think it was pushing on borderline overacting, like it was so much, but there was a lot of commitment to what they were doing. They were so determined to, you know, the I didn't see lazy acting up there. I didn't see I saw committed people, but it just seemed like it was too much going on.

[11:19] Jeff Malone: And then I will, and then you know what it reminded me of at times? It reminded me of like, you know, when we saw The Lightning Thief on Broadway, and it was like a children's book.

[11:28] Richie Grasso: I don't remember.

[11:29] Jeff Malone: Well, I don't want to remember The Lightning Thief.

[11:31] Richie Grasso: Well, yeah.

[11:32] Jeff Malone: I'm saying like a preteen, like, let's go fight vibe was this. Like, it almost was like this very important, wonderful historical thing was being represented as like, let's put up the preteen kids' story version of this game. Let's see. And like that lessened the impact of this for me because it just seemed so surfacey in what was happening. And for a show that was less than two hours, I felt like I was sitting there for four.

[12:01] Richie Grasso: True.

[12:02] Jeff Malone: I mean, which I think should lead us into a little bit more of the creative conversation now here with the direction, the character performances, and the overall design of the piece.

[12:15] Richie Grasso: We'll be right back.

[12:19] Jeff Malone: Welcome back. I mean, I think we've said a lot of this already. It's just it felt very premature to be on the stage, especially in a venue like Theater Row.

[12:31] Richie Grasso: Yeah.

[12:32] Jeff Malone: Right? I mean, and it's nice to see new names on creative teams, music direction and choreo and like designers, a lot of new names. And of course, if this is a younger team and they're getting their feet wet in the industry, that's great that they got something put up. And maybe they'll learn from this and say, listen, every great started, even like Sondheim's first show we ever wrote like in college, he says was kind of a flop. Like everyone has these like rough starts, you know. I'm not saying like everyone needs to have this perfect thing right out of the gate.

[13:03] Richie Grasso: But this I'm not saying it needs to be perfect. I'm just saying before we're putting works on the stage, we need to go back to the workshop models, and we need to make sure that we're developing the concept more. And you need to be getting people outside of your ring giving you feedback on a piece like this. Because I feel like we're doing this now, but this is like a full off-Broadway production. And like, you know, would we have a different moment where we're sitting in a reading and we would be going to them and saying, hey, like you maybe should really develop that idea more, and maybe you should kind of find your own unique sound and not kind of feel so like Spring Awakening meets Les Miz meets, you know, Next to Normal kind of vibe, which also, if we go on that whole score side of things, I'm like, wait.

[13:54] Jeff Malone: Okay, I'll go back to that because I thought the overdramatic moment in the beginning was we were gonna have a Spring Awakening kind of take on this. That I think would have really worked for a show like this.

[14:04] Richie Grasso: Totally, totally.

[14:05] Jeff Malone: Total characters have more of those emotional-driven pieces with lyrics that are gonna tell the story. But then after the second song, it kind of like went away, and we went to like high school style performances here. And I'm like, wait, wait, wait, am I watching a high school performance? I don't want to feel that way when I'm off-Broadway here. It also seems a little bit safe to the point where, like, yes, I know in Sound of Music when Lisa's boyfriend becomes part of the Nazi regime, and she's like, "What are you doing? Why are you joining them?" Right? Like, we've seen this before, which is so difficult about this time period is people were—some people were leaving their friend groups to join the Nazi regime.

Like, what are you doing? You were my friend, and now you're—why are you joining the Nazis? And that I actually think they did get right in this. Was that like, oh my gosh, why you—what is happening? But then that alone is difficult and gripping and challenging. And for you to then go on with like this—the book writing and the lyrics being so corny, cheesy, you cheapened what was going on here, and what's going on here is not cheap at all. This is important. So I just hit the emotional impact that it needed to when you're telling this.

[15:14] Richie Grasso: Right. And that's another concept that they could have ran with. It could have been a little bit more about how the guy who's joining the Nazi army is still so madly in love with the girl. I forgot her character, but Jo Ellen is playing her, and like I think his storyline was kind of—Sophie. His storyline was developed. We got to see that arc of like he did—he was trying to go against Nazi Germany and wanted—he essentially would have been part of this, and he wanted to help all of the WHITE ROSE as much as he could. And that's another point that's like so—but I don't know if we're taking that really away from it. Like, you know, we're kind of giving that more credit than I think this show actually did.

I did feel like I was watching a college thesis production of this that would then go to New York and have the greats like Jason Robert Brown and other people come in and watch and give critique and book edit, and it just feels like it kind of went from a college right onto this big stage. Maybe they got the funding for it, and maybe that's what was exciting for them. There are some Broadway names here in this and off-Broadway names, so they were able to get that, but I just—I just didn't think this was ready, and it was very difficult to—I wish it was just a play. I wish I saw a film or a documentary about this group of people, because then at the end it was unclear: did they all die? Did some of them die?

Which we later learned that they didn't all die. So through execution, they didn't all die, I don't think. It just seems so—I—one of the reviews said one of the people in this group was actually missing from this stage production. There was actually another member that wasn't even—why was that person left out of this? I'm just thinking of what I've been reading in the research and hearing, and yeah. I don't know. Just from like characters in general, I think there's so—something way more powerful on if like they just—I think it kind of needed more around them. I think the ensemble around them kind of didn't add anything to it. It was kind of just like they're randomly here. There should have just been more with what it was like to be part of the WHITE ROSE.

[17:30] Jeff Malone: Mm-hmm.

[17:31] Richie Grasso: I don't—I don't know why we had character moments about personal lives. I just don't think they really added to it. And then maybe if there was, you know, maybe we could have had some flashback moments if one of the characters was having his third child and was having difficulty going through that with his wife that was at home, and he had to make a decision. Do I keep the resistance fight or do I go to my home? There could have been a moment there where maybe we saw him with his wife and we saw his personal struggle, but maybe there wasn't enough time for that. I don't know. But then that's skewing because that's one of the many plots we were trying to tell here. And I—I listen, is this ready for Broadway?

I don't think so. I mean, I think this would have to go through a lot of rewrites and edits and it's definitely not ready for Broadway. It definitely needs a way clearer vision on like an expansion on this actual storyline because they're definitely not doing the story justice. I didn't leave there knowing much about the WHITE ROSE. And in a musical like this, I do think I should be leaving there having learned something about them. Because we're not gonna cheapen and camp up a story like this for Broadway.

[18:40] Richie Grasso: What I did feel like—not to keep comparing this to Harmony, but what I did feel like Harmony actually did do well was Chip Zion's character, how he was there telling the story, and then at the end, when he was the only one left, there was heart there. There was a sense of, oh my gosh, he survived what—and he has to tell this story. There was none of that here. There was no—it was just young people telling the story. But like you said, when it's Newsies and it's high energy, or when it's Spring Awakening, it's angsty rock. Why couldn't we have had something like that? These young university people fighting, and instead it was like surfacey safe. It was like we're singing about it. No, show me your anger.

You're using the printing press, and the paper wasn't even really coming out of it. And I don't know if it was broken or like they weren't using it to the fullest. Remember the printer that was there? Was that not working? Could we have been showing them really running through the audience? Come up to me and hand me one. You know, use the audience. Like, really get me. I don't know. There's just—oh, a lot of missed opportunity, I think. And I feel like—you know my thing on narrators in musicals. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. Sometimes I feel like it's just like cookie cutter. But actually, I do kind of think a narrator would have really helped with this show a little bit more, especially if we're trying to do it in this quick 90-minute musical style.

Like setting it up, either being the professor or being one of the living members of the WHITE ROSE or being with someone that was there. They could have been telling you, like, let me tell you a story about, you know, these amazing people, very similar to probably why Chip Zion's character was added to Harmony in the first place. Because I know that in the early stages of that they said there was no narrator, and then that was added later on. It just helps with context for people to understand, like, okay, we're telling you a period piece here, and you know, this is a living member, and that's how we know this information.

[20:36] Jeff Malone: I mean, you know, it's disappointing, Richie. I'm disappointed because I think that when you—I know that there are eight to ten people on a creative team working so hard to put something on that they care about, and I'm not gonna sit here and say, "Oh, you..." I'm just giving constructive criticism, like I think this could have been better and that could have been better, and good for them for getting to where they are, but this is not ready yet. And you're in a commercial house. That's what I'm trying to say. I don't think the cart is before the horse here, and I don't think we're quite in the right space for this, and I don't know if this is gonna get the traction that it needs. Kudos to a young team for really wanting to put a story up there that's never been told on a stage before. But this is—it's messy. It's not—it's not working. There's a lot that's not working for me.

[21:22] Richie Grasso: And I do want to read a review that came out. This is by David Barber.

[21:28] Jeff Malone: We'll be right back.

[21:32] Richie Grasso: Let's jump back into things. One of the critics of this, and he said, quote, "The show doesn't make enough of the bleak irony that the group was destroyed just as the war was turning definitely against Germany. It's fascinating to speculate that would have happened if Heim, Sophie, and the others had lived to see Hitler's fall. In any event, this urgent, compelling subject requires more skill than the show's creators can supply. The young adult fiction treatment applied here robs the narrative of its power. The story of the WHITE ROSE is deeply important, especially so today. But this version is simply a mistake." And I can't agree with that more, unfortunately. He's basically saying how important the story is, but how mistakenly told this was on the stage in the way that it was.

[22:18] Jeff Malone: Well, it's the what could have been moment. And again, I do agree with him as well. Like, and we said the same thing about Harmony. How different would that musical have been if we got more of the what could have been if they lived on to be the Comedian Harmonists? And this, what would have happened if they lived on to be like these great, you know, people of the resistance? And instead, we're kind of—they're standing there at the end of this musical, and I'm like, why are they standing there? I don't know what happened to them now. But there's a clear message of what actually did happen to them. So this is not for up to the audience to decide what happened to them. They were dead. So I don't understand like why we're trying to figure that out at the end.

What could have happened is the bigger thing. I think that I was—it was so safe that there were times where I'm like, wait, isn't this the time period where people being arrested at any second, mutilated, killed, tortured? Really, really difficult things. And when you think of moments where the story Cabaret goes really dark in that—in these dark times. Even Fiddler on the Roof. The act, if you all remember the show at the Act One finale, I know it was a different time period. The wedding is destroyed at the end of Act One. They come through and they destroy this wedding. There was anger, and then—and this was just like in WHITE ROSE. It was like, oh, I think I'm gonna get arrested. Oh, let's run here.

Oh, let's be quiet. Oh, it was just so surfacey. It wasn't like I felt really like, oh my gosh, these people are—and then when they say they were executed at the end, and then they're singing, it just was surfacey for me. It wasn't where it needed to go for this very dark, difficult time.

[23:57] Richie Grasso: You know, I agree with that. A missed opportunity and unfortunately is not working for me. And hopefully the story can be told again and it will always be remembered. And we remember these difficult times in history, but not in the way of this musical, unfortunately.

[24:13] Jeff Malone: No, I think, you know, they have a great base, they have some great potential. But again, if they ever wanted to go to a place like Broadway, it easily needs almost a full rewrite, especially in the score. It also needs to kind of be decided if it should even have a score, or if it should just be acted. And if it is a score, then it needs more refinement in really understanding what it is as a musical. And I know we were seeing this show just started a couple weeks ago, and maybe they're still getting their footing backstage on stage. It just seemed a little clunky to me. It seemed like it wasn't 100% there yet. And like I said, if I'm watching this in a collegiate educational environment or in a small, small, small space.

But when you're in a commercial space, I hate to say it, but in today's day and age, you gotta be ready when you're in those spaces. You gotta be ready. And at the end of the day, the show has already opened, so they're not making any changes to it currently.

[25:12] Richie Grasso: Yeah.

[25:12] Jeff Malone: And that is what it is. So it's not like we can blame it on it just opening and it's still clunky or something because it's still the same book and score that is going to be on that stage.

[25:24] Richie Grasso: Yeah.

[25:24] Jeff Malone: So well, there's our time that kind of flew by talking about this. That does wrap up our discussion of the episode today. Any final thoughts on WHITE ROSE: The Musical, off-Broadway, Jeff?

[25:35] Jeff Malone: Listen, if the creative team listens to this, I do think you have potential in this show. There's a lot of things that you can definitely improve on. So I would look into that. Other than that, this was not the favorite of my season. I will say I'm not a perfect director, perfect producer. I'm not saying that at all. And like you said, if the team was listening, I would want to say good congratulations to you all for putting your heart and soul into something. As I'm—when I'm directing pieces, I always want second and third opinions. I want as many people to come in and tell me how they honestly feel about it. And hopefully, this will be taken with a grain of salt and understood that, yeah, I think there's a lot of issues here that need to be resolved.

I don't think it's quite done and ready yet, but hopefully it runs for the next few weeks successfully and they see where their next steps are. But it will—like I agree with you, it wasn't my favorite of this season either, unfortunately.

[26:29] Richie Grasso: Mm-hmm.

[26:30] Jeff Malone: Yeah. So that does wrap up our episode today. We hope you enjoyed our deep dive into WHITE ROSE: The Musical. The show is playing until March 3rd.

[26:38] Richie Grasso: I think it's playing—I think it's actually playing longer than that.

[26:40] Jeff Malone: Oh, I think it might be April.

[26:42] Richie Grasso: Maybe it's April. I think it's—we're gonna put the ticket link in the description in this. If you want to get tickets to go check it out, we'll give you all the details in the description of this episode.

[26:50] Jeff Malone: Yes, and don't forget we want to hear from you. Continue the conversation with us on Instagram and TikTok at Half Hour Podcast and let us know your thoughts on WHITE ROSE. If you enjoyed our show, please leave us a review. Your feedback helps us bring more theater to you. And remember, you can listen to our past episodes and stay tuned for upcoming ones as well. Until next time, I'm Jeff.

[27:08] Richie Grasso: And I'm Richie saying ta-ta for now.

[27:11] Jeff Malone: Bye.