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[0:00] Tommy: Boop boop! I know. You don't hear that royalty-free music anymore, man. I mean, that's, like, built into, like, GarageBand. Hey, the Musical Theatre Mash intro, which also... There's a show that's all about musical theatre. I can't remember after that. I forget what it's, you know. You're watching Musical Theatre Mash is the end of some GarageBand built-in, haven't-changed-issues. Yes! But it's great, because, like, every time you hear it on, like, a podcast or, you know, whatever, I'm just like, do you know where I heard that first? Yep. That's Musical Theatre Mash. It's your Sonic branding. Well done. That's true. My Sonic branding. Well done.

[0:42] Jimi: Welcome to Jim and Tomic's Musical Theatre Happy Hour. I'm Tommy. And I'm Jimi. And this is the only musical theatre podcast with salted ribs and well-lit scrims. Here, we take apart your favourite shows, muddle them together with a shot of buffoonery, and pour you a refreshing glass of musical theatre conversation. Jimi, what are you drinking today?

[1:13] Jimi: I mean, we're not gonna keep that up. Good day. Also, we were doing two different skits. I was doing, like, Parks and Recreation, like, late-night jazz hour. Yeah. And I don't know what. I kind of turned into a game show at the end. Yeah, it started off like, movie, like, and now. One of the most debilitating actor notes I ever got in high school was, Tommy, can you tone down the game show host a bit during Rumours? And, like, I didn't know I was doing it, which was the worst part about it.

[1:45] Tommy: What was the show?

[1:45] Jimi: Rumours by Neil Simon. It's a door farce. It's very funny. I think there's room for a game show voice in that. Yeah, it was not my character. It's just kind of how I talked on stage. It was, it was a very correct note. And I was like, oh, no, I didn't even know. I didn't even know. See? See? Like that. Did that peak? That peaked. Anyway, what am I drinking, you ask? Well, green elixir, says I. What else could it be? What else could it be? Unless it's lemons and peaches and what's in the punch? Oh, I don't know. Lemons and peaches and pears. Oh, my. I think that's what it is. Oh, gosh. Yes. A joke. Lemons and melons and pears. Pardon me. Lemons and melons and pears. I prefer peaches and pears. The alliteration is much nicer.

[2:32] Tommy: See? I guess you got the lemons and melons rhyme. Right. Like full rhyme. Yeah. Anyway. Why are we drinking these things, Jimmy?

[2:39] Jimi: Tommy, we're drinking these things because on the 8th of April 2010, NASA played a song from the musical that we will be talking about as the wake-up call on the International Space Station. That's the ISS, bitches. What show?

[2:58] Tommy: For the first time, I finally feel wicked. That was a bastardization of that quote.

[3:07] Jimi: For the first time, I finally feel. Yeah. Think of that. That doesn't make logical sense. That's what it says. I've memorized this show. No. For the first time, I feel. And it also. Oh, no. She doesn't say that in the show. She does. What she doesn't do is the weird riffy start to try and make a pop song. Oh, here it is. It's wicked. We're talking about wicked. Play the music. We're talking about wicked.

[4:31] Tommy: Good news! She's dead! The Witch of the West is dead! The wickedest witch there ever was! The enemy of all of us, here he comes, is dead! Good news! Good news! Look, it's Glinda!

[5:07] Jimi: I mean, bloody hell. Do we stop after this? I know. Where to begin? It's wicked. I don't know if, perhaps they do, but like, the sentence I was about to say are, kids who are the age I was when I saw Wicked now don't understand. Kids who, I mean, basically people don't understand why it's wicked. Like, Wicked was the Hamilton of its time.

[5:43] Tommy: Right.

[5:43] Jimi: And in a world before Wicked existed.

[5:50] Tommy: Yeah, well, that's exactly it. But also, Wicked is still Wicked.

[5:51] Jimi: I know. Do you know what I mean? There's been no new Wicked.

[5:55] Tommy: No. No, nothing has come close. And it's so wildly different from other blockbusters.

[6:01] Jimi: Well, all right. Wicked, music and lyrics by Stephen Schwartz, book by Winnie Holtzman, based on a novel by Gregory Maguire, opened in 2003, you probably know all this, on Broadway and had a tryout in San Fran before. Three Tonys, a Grammy, still playing after COVID, probably, very likely. You say the rest of it.

[6:20] Tommy: And it also opened up in the West End in 2006. And again, still playing, will continue to, you know. And then also, for the past 30 years, there's been talks of a movie.

[6:33] Jimi: Yes. Apparently, I'm directing now.

[6:38] Tommy: Yeah, I think you're directing it. When you drop out, I'll start. Although, I just read a thing today that apparently Steven Spielberg's on it now.

[6:45] Jimi: Really? Spielberg.

[6:47] Tommy: Wow. Well, but then I've also heard it might also be a series. But like, don't do a series of the musical.

[6:56] Jimi: No, do the book. Do a series of the books.

[6:58] Tommy: But if there's a book and kind of the music in it. Yeah, anyway. What's the point? Because people will be like, what is this? Trash.

[7:05] Jimi: Do you think, I mean, I know we ask this question a lot, but do you think there is, if you are out there, person who has never listened to Wicked, who listens to our podcast, number one, I adore you for making it this far into this episode.

[7:17] Tommy: And number two, I'm so excited to tell you about this musical.

[7:20] Jimi: Yeah, absolutely. Also, well done. Like, that is navigating a minefield. Thank you. I think. No, not you.

[7:27] Tommy: Oh, also that, yes.

[7:30] Jimi: But you, well done you. That's one of those, like, just handing prizes out nowadays to kids. Like that's, you just fell into that category. Anyway, Tommy, tell me about Wicked.

[7:42] Tommy: It's the untold story of the Wicked Witch of the West of Oz fame. So much happened before Dorothy dropped in Oz.

[7:49] Jimi: Oh my, what other marketing slogans from Wicked can you.

[7:53] Tommy: A new musical.

[7:55] Jimi: Yeah, that's fair. Those are the only ones. Something, something, define gravity.

[8:02] Tommy: So, you know, the green lady with the pointy hat. How'd she get there? Let's find out. Turns out it's different than you think.

[8:13] Jimi: Once upon a time in the mythical land of Oz, you know the one. See, but this is, there's so much fantasy shit in this stuff that I don't care about.

[8:23] Tommy: I care so much.

[8:26] Jimi: Joel Grey had sex with a well-to-do politician, a politician's wife.

[8:36] Tommy: And the politician.

[8:37] Jimi: Well deep here. Took in the green girl and begrudgingly raised her as his own. This girl is Elphaba. Eventually, and you get it, you get it. She's going to be the witch. Do you get it? She's the one. She's the witch. She's green. Glinda's here, but she's Galinda. We'll get to it. They go to the same school and hate each other and pick on each other.

[9:01] Tommy: Well, Galinda picks on Elphaba.

[9:04] Jimi: Also, Elphaba's sister, Nessarose, who uses a wheelchair, is at this school. And Nessa's more loved. But turns out Elphaba can do magic, which Madame Morrible, one of the professors at the school, takes a liking to. Also at the school is Dr. Dillamond, a goat who talks. Because in this world, some goats talk. But the rumor is some animals are losing their ability to talk.

[9:30] Tommy: The long-running joke has been they keep performing songs from Wicked at the Tonys. Eventually, they're going to have to perform something bad.

[9:39] Jimi: Which we'll get there. The most expositional and least catchy tune.

[9:43] Tommy: Well, arguable.

[9:44] Jimi: Um, turns out Elphaba and Galinda become friends. Also, Fierro's there. He's sexy and hates school and falls in and out of love with Galinda and Elphaba over the course of the musical. Galinda and Elphaba go to Emerald City, the Emerald City, even, to see The Wizard. Also to see a play and a bunch of other things. People dancing with streamers, but mostly The Wizard. Turns out, not a big head, but he's Joel Grey. He tap dances for a second.

[10:11] Tommy: Also, Joel Grey wants Elphaba to do magic for her. She thinks it's for a good reason, but it's actually for a bad reason. She gives wings to monkeys. Remember them from the movie? Turns out Elphaba's not really cool with this and steals the book, the Grimmery. And flies away on her broom! Remember that? That's the end of Act 1. They lift her up in a big stage thing, except on days when they don't. She runs out into the middle of the stage and everyone gets as low as possible and you ask for a refund for your ticket. Act 2!

[10:43] Jimi: How am I doing so far?

[10:45] Tommy: I'm loving this.

[10:46] Jimi: This is a fringe show. Glinda's in charge of the government now. Now, Glinda instead of Guh-Linda, because you changed her name because Dr. Dillam and the goat couldn't pronounce it and then he disappeared because we're racist against goats now. Also, there was a lion. That was in Act 1. We set it free. Then, things get complicated.

[11:06] Tommy: We kind of live in like a weird fascist state where we're trying to oppress the animals who can talk so that the wizard can stay in power, which they really don't delve into like how that's gonna work very well in the musical, but you just kind of accept it.

[11:21] Jimi: Fiyero is getting married to Glinda, or is married to her.

[11:25] Tommy: Engaged.

[11:26] Jimi: Engaged, that's it. That's what it is. But then Elphaba, there's a bunch of rumors about her because she's gonna be a witch now. Then she sneaks into Nessarose's wardrobe to give her shoes that make her what?

[11:38] Tommy: Walk!

[11:38] Jimi: Remember those? Can't call them ruby slippers because otherwise MGM will sue you. Also, they were mentioned briefly in Act 1 for some reason, but this is the time when they make her walk for a little bit. But then Bak, a character I neglected to mention at the beginning because of how minimally important he is portrayed to be across the course of the show, decides he's going to abandon Nessarose because she doesn't need his help anymore and she tries to do magic but actually just accidentally destroys his heart and in an effort to save her, Elphaba turns him into the Tin Man and that's one of the many moments where you're like, Oh, I recognize that in the show! Then a house falls on Nessarose. Later. But you know that part.

[12:18] Tommy: And for an inexplicable reason, Glinda gives Elphaba's dead sister's shoes to the little girl who arrived in the house that a cyclone brought, which we're pretty sure Madame Morrible made happen because, you know, political espionage. I guess most espionage is political.

[12:39] Jimi: Then Fiyero gets turned into the Scarecrow because we got to take care of that one. We go see the wizard again. He does a tap dance but he's still bad and Dr. Dillamond can't talk anymore. Elphaba turns Fiyero into the Scarecrow in an effort to save him. Um, then the play ends.

[13:06] Tommy: Keep going.

[13:06] Jimi: Just keep going. There's a confrontation.

[13:12] Tommy: We don't all have the luxury of traveling by bubble.

[13:14] Jimi: No, that was earlier.

[13:15] Tommy: That was way earlier.

[13:17] Jimi: Yeah, but it's so beautiful. Fiyero's died twice in this part.

[13:20] Tommy: Yep.

[13:21] Jimi: But everyone's gonna go kill the witch because that's how it works. It turns out the little girl-

[13:27] Tommy: Don't go with the bit that's literally the Wizard of Oz.

[13:29] Jimi: I don't know why you're struggling.

[13:30] Tommy: Well, but what part is propaganda put in by the fascist Ozzian state?

[13:38] Jimi: Dorothy throws a bucket at Elphaba and she melts but she doesn't. And then we once again resume at what was the beginning of the play where we see how difficult Kristen Chenoweth's life has been.

[13:52] Tommy: I mean, well done.

[13:54] Jimi: That was beautiful. That was beautiful.

[13:57] Tommy: It has a complicated plot for a very viral show.

[14:03] Jimi: Right, yeah.

[14:05] Tommy: I mean, yeah, complicated or just deep.

[14:09] Jimi: But like, the plot of- this is why they describe it as the untold story of the Wicked Witch of the West, right?

[14:19] Tommy: You know, the plot of Chicago is a woman kills someone and tries to get out of it.

[14:25] Jimi: Hmm.

[14:26] Tommy: Right?

[14:27] Jimi: Like, what's-

[14:28] Tommy: The single sentence-

[14:31] Jimi: You know, the plot of Les Mis.

[14:33] Tommy: Yeah, is the French Revolution.

[14:35] Jimi: Yeah, but the-

[14:36] Jimi: A lot, you know. You would spend an equal amount of time describing the plot of Lainey.

[14:41] Tommy: Both, honestly, based on very epic, episodic novels.

[14:47] Jimi: Yeah, exactly. Very dense, dense works. I think that was very good. You only made a couple of mistakes. That's okay. It's been a couple decades since I've seen this show.

[14:57] Tommy: Exactly. I think that's, yeah, well, I'm very proud of you.

[15:01] Jimi: What mistakes stood out the most to you?

[15:04] Tommy: Um, the, well, Bok was effectively enslaved.

[15:12] Jimi: Fair, yes.

[15:15] Tommy: And she was, yeah, basically enslaved the munchkins, and that's why she's the Wicked Witch of the East.

[15:20] Jimi: She was. Nessaros turns into a bad person.

[15:23] Tommy: Yes. Um, kind of because she's in a wheelchair. Awkward.

[15:28] Jimi: Yeah, Sam, we'll talk. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What else? Oh, um, the wizard is, uh, Elphaba's dad.

[15:36] Tommy: I said that. Joel Grey.

[15:38] Jimi: Did you say that right at the start?

[15:39] Tommy: Yeah, Joel Grey had sex with someone, and then.

[15:41] Jimi: Well, you didn't say it in order.

[15:43] Tommy: Well, no, but it starts at the beginning.

[15:44] Jimi: You only find out right at the end.

[15:47] Tommy: It's Joel Grey singing at the beginning, if you don't, if you can't figure that out right at the beginning.

[15:51] Jimi: Well, you know, his face isn't seen, so therefore it could be anyone.

[16:00] Tommy: It could be doubling, um, on that. I will say, and this is a, uh, uh, may, uh, uh, I don't know. This is the thing.

[16:10] Jimi: This is one of the first shows where I religiously listened to the cast album before seeing it, and then saw it.

[16:16] Tommy: Right.

[16:18] Jimi: I saw this show my senior year of high school. This is right at the beginning. Like, this is one of the first professional musicals I, like, saw intentionally that wasn't just, you know, a thing to go see, but like, one that-

[16:31] Tommy: You were a fan.

[16:32] Jimi: I knew about, I had listened to, and so, like, it was one of the first shows I went into being well aware of a lot of the stuff around it.

[16:41] Tommy: Yeah.

[16:41] Jimi: And also then not having the wherewithal to, like, unpack that, um, to, like, you, you know, Tommy, you experienced the story backwards, so remember that you'd experienced this in the wrong direction of consumption.

[16:53] Tommy: Okay, I get you, yeah.

[16:55] Jimi: Which perhaps informs, I'm, you know, Joel Grey's listed. It sounds like Joel Grey, that's got to be the wizard, which is not revealed on the cast album at all, but was not a huge twist in seeing the show, whereas there were plenty of other huge twists in seeing the show that I was unaware of, which perhaps will speak to the cleverness of the cast album at some point as well.

[17:14] Tommy: Yeah, exactly. Um, yeah, well, I say no time like the present. Let's crack open that book, shall we?

[17:22] Jimi: Then I meet the wizard, once I prove my worth.

[17:29] Jimi: Then I meet the wizard, what I've waited for since, since birth.

[17:35] Jimi: And with all his wizard wisdom, by my looks, he won't be blinded.

[17:41] Jimi: Do you think the wizard is dumb, or like Munchkin, so small-minded?

[17:48] Tommy: No, he'll say to me, I see who you truly are, a girl on whom I can rely.

[17:55] Jimi: And that's how we'll begin, the wizard and I.

[18:05] Tommy: Books don't make noise like that.

[18:07] Jimi: Mine does.

[18:08] Tommy: That's like in movies, whenever the, like, power goes out and the sound goes,

[18:13] Jimi: Because it's like, everything runs on the biggest generator ever.

[18:16] Tommy: Like, that's not, when the power, next time the power goes out, listen, very little will happen.

[18:20] Jimi: Yes, what you'll just hear is nothing, because the power's gone out anyway.

[18:26] Tommy: Okay, so I think a very good place to start is the origin of the origin story.

[18:34] Jimi: The book. You've read the novel, yes?

[18:36] Tommy: I've read all four.

[18:38] Jimi: I thought there were only three.

[18:40] Tommy: Holy cow.

[18:40] Jimi: No, there's four.

[18:41] Tommy: So we've got Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West. We've got Son of a Witch. We've got A Lion Among Men. And then finally, we've got Out of Oz.

[18:52] Jimi: Starring, of all people, Elphaba's granddaughter.

[18:56] Tommy: Who knew? How many came out before the musical?

[19:02] Jimi: Dos.

[19:03] Tommy: Okay.

[19:04] Jimi: No, that's not true.

[19:06] Tommy: Just one.

[19:06] Jimi: Just one?

[19:07] Tommy: Do you think, gut feeling, do you think the other three would have come out had the musical not been successful?

[19:14] Jimi: No.

[19:16] Tommy: No, wait. Do I think they would have come out? Yes.

[19:18] Jimi: Interesting. Maybe not all four.

[19:20] Tommy: Okay.

[19:21] Jimi: But there would have been more.

[19:23] Tommy: Yeah, just because that's great. Like, Gregory Maguire's thing is the story behind the story.

[19:30] Jimi: Like, he does pretty much all the books that I've read.

[19:32] Tommy: Does he have a Stepsisters one?

[19:34] Jimi: There's, yeah, Stepsisters. Mirror Mirror as well, which I think was made into a film.

[19:37] Tommy: Okay.

[19:38] Jimi: He did that. He does one about fairies. Like, yeah, that's just, that is just his thing.

[19:44] Tommy: And he does it really, really well. And there's nothing in those books that feels like it's been written in response to the music.

[19:54] Jimi: Like, there's no fan service.

[19:56] Tommy: Sure.

[19:57] Jimi: If that makes sense.

[19:58] Tommy: Yes.

[19:59] Jimi: Quite the opposite.

[20:00] Tommy: Yeah, because the books are wildly different.

[20:03] Jimi: I mean, I read a summary of the first one. And can I tell you some of the things I was surprised about?

[20:09] Tommy: Tell me.

[20:10] Jimi: Elphaba's a child of rape. Nessaros doesn't have arms. There's a big sex orgy club.

[20:18] Tommy: You're damn right there is.

[20:19] Jimi: With a tiger.

[20:22] Tommy: But it's a tiger with a capital T, so it's fine.

[20:25] Jimi: So, talking tiger. Tony the Tiger.

[20:27] Tommy: Yes, yes.

[20:27] Jimi: You can have sex with Tony the Tiger, is what you're telling me.

[20:29] Tommy: Exactly. Exactly.

[20:32] Jimi: Guess what? He's great.

[20:36] Tommy: Oh.

[20:38] Jimi: That was really funny to me. That was so funny, I couldn't even do the voice for it.

[20:41] Tommy: You didn't think that was funny?

[20:42] Jimi: Okay. Well, Tommy, it's one of those.

[20:45] Tommy: Anytime someone says Tony the Tiger, pretty much, they follow it.

[20:50] Jimi: He's great. Have you heard?

[20:52] Tommy: One of these days, I will tell you the untold internet story of how Tony the Tiger had to delete his Twitter.

[20:58] Jimi: Fascinating.

[20:59] Tommy: Saved that for our last call.

[21:00] Jimi: Yes, excellent. And then we can talk about the advert.

[21:03] Tommy: Perfect. Do you know that?

[21:05] Jimi: No.

[21:06] Tommy: What?

[21:07] Jimi: It's gonna taste great.

[21:08] Tommy: It's gonna taste great.

[21:11] Jimi: I can hear...

[21:12] Tommy: Never heard this.

[21:13] Jimi: Fantastic. I'm gonna take a note of that.

[21:16] Tommy: Tony the Tiger at the very bottom of our Google Doc.

[21:18] Jimi: Thank you very much.

[21:20] Tommy: Even if we record it now, we can paste it into a future last call.

[21:24] Jimi: That's fantastic. That's some great content.

[21:26] Tommy: Anyway.

[21:27] Jimi: Yeah, they're very different.

[21:31] Tommy: Very, very different beasts.

[21:32] Jimi: Firo's not cool.

[21:36] Tommy: Well, he's cool, but he's not like, hey, he's not John Hughes cool.

[21:43] Jimi: Sure.

[21:44] Tommy: Right. He's like a prince, you know, of the Winkies or the Vinkas.

[21:51] Jimi: So there's that, you know, the thing is, right? The books, the Gregory Maguire books lend themselves much more to the original L. Frank Baum, Oz world.

[21:59] Tommy: And they feel like they fit much more into that than the musical does.

[22:07] Jimi: Yeah.

[22:09] Tommy: But there is, basically, like, obviously, there's been so much written about this, and Stephen Schwartz has talked about it to no end. But I think the decision that they made with adapting the novel was to make it just more accessible.

[22:27] Jimi: Yeah. I have seen comparisons that that also tracks in the original novels to the MGM movie. That if you take the original L. Frank Baum novels and compare them to the MGM movie, there's a lot of simplification that happens for sake of the movie.

[22:50] Tommy: And like the original novels are a children's book slash maybe a political allegory. That's the thing is, they're really tricky because there's complex world building, right? But also really simple storytelling.

[23:05] Jimi: Yeah. And that I always find really tricky. Because you're like, what's feeding what here, you know?

[23:15] Tommy: Yeah, there's, I mean, lots of people talk about it, whether it's a political allegory or not, and no one will ever know because L. Frank Baum never spoke on it.

[23:21] Jimi: Right.

[23:23] Tommy: But there's no doubts on this earth that Gregor Maguire's books are extremely political and are mostly about politics.

[23:31] Jimi: Right.

[23:33] Tommy: And the kind of various different guises that politics take, like whether it is literally looking at political structures, whether it's looking at war, whether it's looking at sociopolitics, and it's all contained in these four books.

[23:52] Jimi: And to be honest, I think it's really, really well.

[23:55] Tommy: Yeah.

[23:55] Jimi: Written because that classic thing of having fantasy and using fantasy as a backdrop to illustrate something that.

[24:04] Tommy: Right. Because I don't read political novels. It's not my favorite thing at all. I find it quite dry.

[24:10] Jimi: Yeah.

[24:10] Tommy: But when you set it against a backdrop of fantasy and, you know, if your ambassador is a lion.

[24:17] Jimi: Right.

[24:17] Tommy: Then I'm like, I'm here. I'm into this. This is cool.

[24:20] Jimi: Sure. But the musical is substantially less political.

[24:27] Tommy: Although, I mean, I would still wager, still very political.

[24:31] Jimi: It was. Yeah, the themes are still there, for sure. And like, it was interesting going back in, like, this is, you know, a. I would, I would wager a very early post 9-11 musical in American culture.

[24:48] Tommy: There's a lot of talk about, like, manufacturing a narrative to create an implied force of terror in the world for political gain.

[25:02] Jimi: Yeah, absolutely. There's lots of, I mean, like, I've read about lots of comparisons between The Wizard in Wicked and the books. I'm talking about the Wicked universe here compared to George W. Bush as being someone who's much more of just kind of a manipulator and an orator and who, yeah, has an agenda and wants to drive that forward.

[25:27] Tommy: Right.

[25:28] Jimi: So that is looking at, you know, George W. Bush or Tony Blair, like.

[25:32] Tommy: Right.

[25:33] Jimi: The two kind of big powerhouse people there at that time doing very much that thing. And yet, like, the musical definitely has political elements, but it's not as much at the heart of the book.

[25:49] Tommy: Sure.

[25:50] Jimi: As they are in the novels where, like, that is actually kind of the main story.

[25:56] Tommy: Yeah.

[25:57] Jimi: And that you're telling and it's Elphaba's part.

[26:00] Tommy: Right.

[26:01] Jimi: And all of that and how she influences all of that. Fewer love songs, more risk board games.

[26:10] Tommy: Yeah, genuinely. I mean, like, honestly, like, the second and third book feel like risk.

[26:16] Jimi: Yeah. There is so much just deep political stuff that even though I was like, I don't really understand it.

[26:26] Tommy: Sure, yeah.

[26:26] Jimi: Because it was, you know, allegories that wasn't attached to something that I was really aware of.

[26:31] Tommy: Right. So, yeah, I mean, I really recommend reading the books because they're really smart.

[26:36] Jimi: Yeah.

[26:36] Tommy: They're not for kids.

[26:37] Jimi: Yeah.

[26:39] Tommy: No, sir.

[26:41] Jimi: I wouldn't even say they're young adult. Like, they just feel like good old novels.

[26:44] Tommy: Fully for adult novels.

[26:46] Jimi: Yeah. Um, but yeah, so I think the comparisons between the two. It's like the world has been created.

[26:59] Tommy: Yeah.

[26:59] Jimi: And to me, it just kind of feels like it stops there. They feel like such different beasts to me.

[27:06] Tommy: And I don't think in any way one is worse than the other or, you know, the musical lacks because it doesn't go as deep politically.

[27:16] Jimi: I absolutely don't think so. I actually think the storytelling in the musical is really good.

[27:22] Tommy: And I think they were really smart to focus on a relationship.

[27:25] Jimi: Yes.

[27:26] Tommy: Between Glinda and Elphaba.

[27:28] Jimi: Yeah, yeah.

[27:29] Tommy: Because that's what audiences relate to.

[27:33] Jimi: That's what they want to see in a musical.

[27:35] Tommy: Do you think I am struggling to find such a similar...

[27:42] Jimi: Another example of like a quote-unquote adaptation that is so...

[27:49] Tommy: That is so wildly different from its initial source material.

[27:55] Jimi: Where that change is not met with an overwhelming amount of negativity.

[28:04] Tommy: You know, I didn't find...

[28:04] Jimi: When it's been so beloved.

[28:06] Tommy: Yeah.

[28:06] Jimi: Do you mean like their original source material is so beloved?

[28:08] Tommy: Yeah.

[28:10] Jimi: Any Lord of the Rings musical anyone's ever attempted has been met with a thousand critiques. You know, talk about all the different...

[28:17] Tommy: Whether it's the Percy Jackson musical, which was generally well received. But people still have comments about like, Oh, this is like the book. This isn't like the book. Or like the movie for sure people were pissed about.

[28:27] Jimi: I know what you mean.

[28:28] Tommy: I know what you mean.

[28:29] Jimi: Yeah, excuse me. The people who love the book aren't denigrating the musical for what it is.

[28:37] Tommy: Yeah.

[28:37] Jimi: Yeah, I would. Yeah, I think you're right about that.

[28:40] Tommy: Like, yeah.

[28:43] Jimi: Yeah.

[28:44] Tommy: Yeah.

[28:44] Jimi: Okay. I would totally give you that.

[28:45] Tommy: Isn't that fascinating? Like in our Game of Thrones style world where, you know, Harry Potter, any book to other adaptation where so much of the discourse is based on how things are different. And people don't talk about how Wicked the musical is different from the book.

[29:02] Jimi: People don't care.

[29:04] Tommy: They don't care.

[29:04] Jimi: Well, I think there's a few reasons to that. One of them is because the books weren't explosively popular.

[29:12] Jimi: Sure. Right, and I actually think they've gotten so much popular since the musical, but I also think it's to do with the time when this was released.

[29:24] Tommy: Yeah, what do you mean? We'll talk about it later when we talk about fan culture.

[29:29] Jimi: Ah, yes. Okay. But yeah, I think that might have something to do with why there's not as much like, there's no comic book nerd who's like, we're on the book and where's the sex orgy song?

[29:45] Tommy: Right, exactly. But I do think, I think it's actually an interesting discussion as to if it was written now, in the kind of musical theatre landscape that we know and love today, which I would say is getting a bit more grown up and a bit more, you know, some of the stories that we've been seeing deal with harder hitting things. So if Schwartzy and Winnie Holtzman were writing this now, would they bring in more of the politics? Would they make, you know, would they drive that story about the animals being outcast a bit more? Would they look into, I guess, the slavery of the Munchkin people? Because even in the books that isn't hugely dealt with until the second book. So maybe they wouldn't. But like the animals, like that is kind of core and it's really core to Elphaba's character. So could they have gone in a bit more on that?

[30:47] Jimi: I honestly, I don't think they would in today's culture because the thing, the reason Wicked is popular, I would wager, and I think we'll talk more in this about fan culture, but people like going into Wicked is a, makes audience members feel smart because they can spot the, it's like a spot the differences painting. And those spot the differences have nothing to do with the novel's deep allegorical exploration of fascist politics. They have to do with like, oh, he's the scarecrow. And you don't need to do a lot to get to, oh, he's the scarecrow. Well, actually, you do need to do a lot to get to, oh, he's the scarecrow. Oh, he's the tin man. Oh, that's the lion. I get it. And I don't think, I don't think the Broadway going audience of even 2020 would want this show to be a deep political allegory.

[32:00] Tommy: Yeah. Okay. I think that's fair. I think they want to spot the differences painting. Not that that's a bad thing. I don't mean to minimize it.

[32:06] Jimi: No, not at all. And it is really fun. And I think that's why Gregor Maguire has written the books that he's written because it's a really, it's like, it feels to me like that kind of satisfying, um, like middle school drama. Do you know what I mean? Where you're like, I'm going to tell the other side, like, oh yeah. Like it is, there's something so satisfying about taking a look from a different perspective. Um, and so, yeah, I think that regardless, that would always need to be there. Um, but I just wonder because I would say like wicked is very much, and we'll go on to talk about the content very, very shortly, but, um, it is very commercial and it is very poppy. Um, and I just wonder, because the thing is, it's like, we know through Pippin and I guess some ways getting gospel, like Stephen Schwartz can write dark and he can write cutting.

[33:06] Tommy: Yeah. Um, so we know he can go there and I don't know, like, it wouldn't it be interesting to see like wicked with more of a Pippin tone that was more, you know, just shades darker, just wasn't afraid to.

[33:17] Jimi: Yeah. I mean, I think, and we're going to dive into the content in seconds, I imagine, but it is weird that the show has played for so long. This is kind of a new Broadway we're experiencing, you know, it is why I am bizarrely excited for the Beauty and the Beast revival, because I'm curious about what a second go is going to do. And, you know what, Wicked is 17 years old now. Did I do that math right? Yeah. And it's still the same, right? Every production of Wicked is still the original production. You can do amateur performances in like Australia, I think, and that's about it. I think it's just Australia. And so we haven't had a second go at Wicked. And I'd be so curious, someone not constrained by the original production team, what they do. If you could do a new set for Wicked, what would you do?

[34:17] Tommy: Yeah. Well, let's talk about what they did do. Is that a segway? That's kind of a segway. See, this is why I say let's get on my segway, because it's just like multipurpose and it doesn't matter. You just say it.

[34:26] Jimi: Yeah. Yeah, I know. But also I like to try and make really good content. So that's where we differ. And I have a hundred jokes and I just check them off every month.

[34:31] Tommy: A hundred, please.

[34:37] Jimi: Okay. Fifty. Fifty. That's fair. That's fair. Also, in a very meta way, one of my 50 jokes is I only have X number of jokes, which it just seems like cheating at that point.

[35:15] Tommy: We love it all.

[35:45] Jimi: I kind of just wanted, because you just talked about the set. Yeah, the show is spectacular. It's gorgeous. It's so like, as a baby tech theater kid, going to see the Chicago sit-down production of Wicked, my God, my jaw hit the floor. And that's part of it, which is so, it's been interesting going back, what I know now, so much of it is, I don't know, from a certain lens, is shitty setting creation. Take the first quarter of the show, from The Wizard and I straight into Loathing, the beginning of Loathing, just kind of happen in limbo. There's no, they bring the big gear columns on, but we're not like, and then eventually the school kids come back in. But all we have is like, I'm writing a letter, dearest Darlingus, Momsy, and Popsy, I'm downstage right, and Glinda's downstage left.

Blonde. Dun-da-dun, now I'll walk towards you, now you walk towards me. And I don't know, whereas many other shows are, especially in the era, are very explicit, like this scene takes place here, and this scene takes place there. Whereas One Short Day takes place in the Emerald City. Is there a big Emerald City? There's a bunch of people there and we'll move the gear columns around a bit so it looks a little different. That's it, you know, Dr. Dillerman's classroom is two benches, their bedroom is two beds. It is interesting that it can be as spectacular as it is, while being kind of generic. And this is the thing I am aware of, just because I've been in this discourse, but the set is so inspired from portions of the novel that have not made it into the book of the musical.

[38:08] Tommy: Exactly. That's exactly what I was just going to talk about. It's my favorite thing. Like the whole dragon, which isn't...

[38:17] Jimi: Yeah, the Clock of the Time Dragon is this huge, important, significant thing in all of the books. It's kind of akin to...it feels like Watchmen in the kind of prophetic manner that it is. There's this dwarf and a little troupe of...I don't know, I can't remember if they have a name or not, I don't think they do. Just like weird mystical people who run around with this dragon, who sits on this kind of like puppet theater. And they put on these shows that basically kind of tell you the future. But also it's a bit like Galadriel's font.

[39:01] Tommy: Yeah, in that prophetic way where you don't like...

[39:04] Jimi: Exactly, who actually knows what's going on? And they're always like extremely dark, but it's painted as this fun kids thing. And yeah, what is amazing is that's what the show is. The whole set, the gears, the lighting design, they're gear gobos in this thing.

[39:25] Tommy: Yeah, because before I saw it, because of the time period that we were living in, I'd never actually seen the set. So I didn't know that fact. And having read the books, I was like, ah, this is so cool. Because it was like, oh my god, you know, I went in with such confidence that they were going to get this right. Because that's such an intrinsic part of the books. That then made it on stage. I was like, they know what they're doing. And it just made so much sense. So for me, I knew straight away going in that this was a puppet show. So I wasn't missing set pieces and what have you.

[40:10] Jimi: Interesting, because it is such... The start of Wicked from fading the house lights is such a fascinating progression to me. Because you start with the overture, which is one of the few overtures in recent years that I can think of that is entirely staged. And it's also a pretty short overture, I would wager. But the puppet marionette moves, and it's kind of piloted by the flying monkeys, who may or may not be flying monkeys yet, and you don't really know. And then there's a big map of Oz, and that raises up. And then there's the big hat. It's the big old freaking hat. And I was rewatching some bits of this earlier, and I'd forgotten about the hat. Why is there a giant incorporeal witch's hat at the top of this thing? I will wager, from the scholarly perspective, your puppet theater perspective is very helpful. And the whole thing is framed as like, Glynda's telling us this story. There's a whole overarching framing device.

[41:16] Tommy: In a more pessimistic, but I also think realistic perspective, part of the success of the show, which I alluded to earlier, is like, it's the witch, you get it? It's the green girl, you get it? It's Margaret Hamilton from The Thing. And you know it, and it's her, but it's different. And it's the spot the difference painting. And because of the structure, I can picture the conversation that happened. There was a draft where the big hat wasn't there. You know, they raised the map. All the Ozzians came out and said, good news, she's dead. Glynda arrived by bubble. We talked about all that. Oh, hallowed halls, shiz. And we're already like 12 minutes in before we even see this green person named Elphaba, right? And even then, we're still 20 minutes in until we see the hat, and still 25 minutes in, or an hour in until we see the broom. The cloak.

[42:16] Jimi: Right? And you don't get until that point that, oh my god, she's the witch. And so much of it doesn't land if you don't know that. And so they're like, okay, what if we got a big hat? And at the very beginning, they all dance around with the big hat. Very first thing you see, big old hat. You know, second thing you see, silhouette of big old hat behind the clock, right? Get it? It's the witch. Do you get it? It's the witch. We need you to know it's the witch. Otherwise, none of it works. It's such a fascinating, you know, I think a lot in tech theater about how you onboard someone onto your musical, or onto your show, whatever it is, and how that starts the moment they start thinking about your show.

That starts with the first poster they see, or how they hear about it, or all of these things are actually a part of your performance, whether you want them to be or not. You know, this is the thing that Great Comet did well with their bizarre hallway into this luscious Russian stage. Fantastic set design. And, you know, the same with Wicked. There was some thought put into, like, sure, we're telling the story, but we need to help our audience understand our story in this really specific way as quickly, easily, and effortlessly as possible. To the point where I forgot about the big hat, you know?

[43:41] Tommy: Right, exactly. And that's the thing, is you do, like, it's not, and it's because that opening is so...

[43:49] Jimi: It's such an assault to the senses. I mean, like the dragon is moving and spitting out fire. Also, it's a dragon since when was that in The Wizard of Oz? There are people doing acrobatics outside the Proscenium. Stuff spinning, gobos a'plenty. The lights, it's incredible. And then suddenly there's this hat, and then... we're in Oz. It's that proper like, wow, what's going on? What's going on? And then you're in it. And yeah, the thing is, I actually don't think it's bad. Like it's normally the kind of thing where I'd be like, yeah, normally I would think, what a stupid decision. But like, it is, it is so it is. I want to describe it. It's it is such an effective, stupid decision.

[44:31] Tommy: Yeah. I think you're right. Like it's it's almost so easy. Yeah. We'll just get it. Of course. What's the most iconic thing? It's the hat. A big old hat. Can we get a big old hat and then you dance around with the hat and that'll fix it. Done. Easy. Like the only thing I could think that we could make it to make it as something a bit more cohesive would be to have other big set pieces like a big broom and a big house. I do like it. I do. I would love to see the revival that leans more into make the whole thing more of a puppet show. Yeah. That would be that would be fun. That would be a fun choice.

[45:05] Jimi: That would be like when the Amdram rights finally come out, when I'm in my 70s, that might be my initial way into the set. Totally. Like it's just it's such a striking piece of imagery in the books. I think it's actually how the books start. And it's really affecting it. Like there's something about just the way it's written. And I mean, that's the case with the books in general. Like they are very affecting books. It's quite a graphic writer. And I just really liked that. That's how they started. The whole show was with this kind of homage to the books. And it's like, that's good. You're not. Yeah. You're not running away from it. You're not like, yes, of course, the books. And I'm going to do my own thing. Yeah. They're keeping that in mind. And it works.

[45:53] Tommy: I mean, the whole production is so people talk about the big things like, you know, she flies at the end of act one. It's great. Right. People talk. But like Nessa's wheelchair that wheels on its own the whole time. And even just the way every time there's some kind of musical transition, they're using bits of the set to accentuate that everything's on, you know, a hook and knife in the floor and being pulled automagically, even if it's just a bench or a bed or, you know, very few props are just like pushed on in this thing. And a lot of that has become part and parcel in the contemporary Broadway scene. You know, all of the Waitress set moves on its own, but the Waitress set doesn't need to move on its own.

Right. Yeah. They made a design choice that has now become the standard in the set design of this thing that like for the most part, people don't move the things, the things just move and the things move as part of the story. There's not like a blackout and we shift and we come back like everything happens a vista, which is like, oh, 17 year old me. That's it.

[47:04] Jimi: But even like when it comes to like their actual kind of set pieces, for example, like with the As Long As You're Mine scene, when they bring down the vines or when they go to Munchkin Land and they bring up the houses and they come in and then they change the goal. But like it all it does have that kind of good puppet show vibe that everything is running on this kind of clockwork. Yeah. And I think that's really cool. Like I think I think it is like it's just so exciting. It's so it's clever. It's exciting. And it's neat to have. It's it's an unexplained framing device, which I can't find another off the cuff example of, you know, if you're just seeing the show, no one ever tells you why the front of the stage is a gear. Right. Right. Yeah. You don't. But but that's a that can be OK. You know, exactly. Exactly. Because you don't question it.

[48:03] Tommy: Yeah. I don't think I've ever had anyone be like, but what if I was a dragon doing there? Right. Like, you know, I mean, you're just like, OK, it's something about it where you just kind of get it. Freaking cool. Like, man, so cool. Yeah. Oh, and it's cool. It's cool in this. Then we can move on from the set. Yeah. Gushing about it. But like where the chandelier is a gimmick. The chandelier is certainly informed by the story. Yeah. You know. Oh, you know. Oh, and then the chandelier fell. No one leaves Wicked talking about the dragon.

[48:41] Jimi: The dragon. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Because there is so much else going on. And the whole show is like that. The whole show is exactly like that's the thing is, I actually think the whole show is a bit of an assault, but not in a bad way. Yeah. Like, because I remember the first time I saw it, like, see, was it Defying Gravity? No, I think it was No Good Deed. No Good Deed has always been my favorite. And I was curled up in like a little ball like this, just sobbing. Yeah. Right. But it wasn't the kind of like, I'm so sad. It was just like, I'm so overwhelmed. Like, because at that point as well, you've just had the big fight. She's just run off. Fear has been grabbed away. And like, again, that stuff isn't in the cast recording.

Right. The fight scene between Glinda and Elphaba isn't in the cast recording. Yeah. And so and then obviously No Good Deed is fascinating because it's like the biggest amount of smoke at any stage ever. And just a trapdoor and light. Yeah. It's just like, yeah. Oh, right. And then that song, you know, is like, yeah, so moving.

[50:04] Tommy: Can we talk about the cleverness of the cast recording?

[50:06] Jimi: Yeah, absolutely. Because like, this show was built to be commercial from day one. You know, it's the reason recording was made very quickly. Yeah. You know, I mean, there was no question. Idina Menzel is in it because of marketing. Like there are a lot of choices made about this show. Because she wasn't the first. She was Stephanie. Yeah. And we'll get to that.

[50:27] Tommy: Were you about to say that Stephanie's not as good or Stephanie's better?

[50:30] Jimi: I was gonna say Stephanie's better. Duh. Oh my gosh. She's so much better. Yeah. But yeah, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Right. The cleverness of the cast recording of being a tool for marketing to give you, like, cast recordings have gone through such a, we should talk about Robbie at some point, but such a roller coaster of existence, right? Previously constrained by physicality limits. Your record's only so long. You only got so many songs done. That's what you get. To a point of being like a, almost a historical record of the show as it existed and something you buy after you've seen it, right? Or if you're never going to be able to see it. But then, you know, Wicked does this thing where like, hey, buy the CD and then maybe come see our show and it'll be fun. And very specifically omits important, interesting details on the cast recording in a way that I don't know if any other musical has done since.

[51:31] Tommy: Oh, since, since yes. But previously, previously, absolutely not. I'm unsure. Like that thing is, I can't think of that makes such a specific, like, we're going to leave you some surprises. Right. Exactly. I mean, because like, like Hamilton, for example, um, have the, uh, not Philip, the other Anthony Ramos one. Um, yeah. His death. Yes. Um, and then you do end up with things like Dirty Rotten Scoundrels where it's like, hello, John Lithgow here. The next three tracks contain major spoilers for the story. Right. Like, um, so there is like, there definitely is it, but, um, I think yeah. Excluding like Wicked Witch of the East as a number, um, which I mean, it's one of those things that it probably wouldn't work because it's not a number. No, it's so, it's so story centric. Like it doesn't track in the way that like, you, you kind of need something bad on the album for the plot to make sense, but it's not, you know, it's not going to hit your, your recap on Spotify.

[52:41] Tommy: Okay. No, but let's talk about something that I actually really like.

[52:48] Jimi: I also like it. I just enjoy the meme of it being such a great, bizarre song. I mean, I don't know why Something Bad gets the rep when Sentimental Man is on the cast recording. Like, I am a sentimental man. That's all I've heard of that song in the past seven years. Like I couldn't tell you the last time I listened to that song. I couldn't tell you. So one, Sentimental Man used to be in my audition book, which is a poor choice. God. Yeah. Um, if you came into an audition with that, I would have asked for a different song and I'm not even kidding. Even in a fucking amateur audition, I would be like, I'm not listening to it. But number two, just so we can see if you pulled out fucking Abernathy from Guys and Dolls is like your next one. I would have asked you to leave. You need to leave now.

[53:36] Tommy: But number two, I want to mention it so we can put it in the show notes. Okay. There's a comedy improv, not improv, scripted comedy performance of a song called The Song That No One Likes.

[53:49] Jimi: Yes, exactly. And is, is mostly about a sentimental man. Exactly. It's a sentimental man. And the more I could have loved you, whatever it's called from Guys and Dolls, like it is, is that, and that one from Waitress, like, it's such a- And it was one of those revelations of like, I didn't realize this was a trope that's been in front of me for so long. Like, leading lady, leading lady, I have this pocket watch that I mentioned so briefly in the first scene. I want you to have it. It's not important or anything. I just am sick of carrying it around. Oh, honestly. And it's like, yeah, the older actor who they've got in for clout, because he's a, you know, well-renowned older actor. That's why five people applauded so loudly when I made my first entrance. Exactly. It's so fucking dead on. Oh, it's delightful. Pause the podcast. Go look it up in the show notes right now. You will adore this performance. It's dead on. I hate all of those songs.

[54:49] Tommy: Yeah. It's such a shame because Joel Grey is such a delightful choice for The Wizard. He is, yes. And they wrote songs that are songs written for Joel Grey. Yes, absolutely. And they're just boring. I mean, like, Wonderful's nice enough. I still don't often listen to that, but I will never listen to Sentimental Man. That's fair. Ever. You could cut both of them and the show would be the same. Right, exactly. But this is why I don't understand why Something Bad gets this, because there's some really nice harmony. Yeah. My, honestly, my least favorite song is As Long As You're Mine. I know. Why? I know. It goes, and I struggle explaining it, and I get that reaction every time I say this.

[55:33] Jimi: Is it just one of those things? I don't not like it. I just like it the least. I think part of it is it goes a little too hard for me.

[55:38] Tommy: Sentimental Man.

[55:39] Jimi: Yeah. It just feels like someone's dumped a romance novel on top of me.

[55:47] Tommy: Oh, they have, and it's so delicious. You obviously just didn't have enough unrequited love in your youth. That song. Yeah. It's perfect for the age that it's aimed at.

[56:03] Jimi: Yes, it is. Yes, it is. You know what I mean? It's so sexy and visceral.

[56:09] Tommy: No, you're right. And man, Young Gay Tommy crushing on straight boys in my class. That should have been right up my alley. I don't know, man. Do you know what I mean? It's literally forbidden love. It's a song of forbidden love in a sexy location with some hanging vines.

[56:27] Jimi: It is a swamp. I don't know if I would describe that as a sexy location.

[56:30] Tommy: It's sexy. There's haze. A sexy swamp. That's sexy.

[56:38] Jimi: And also, but also, they have a really raw sexual relationship in the books as well. So having that context going at like.

[56:43] Tommy: Is a nice. Yeah. You buy it. I can't believe I'm so sad about that.

[56:50] Jimi: I know. To change the subject, we mentioned briefly, like Stephanie J Block is a better Elphaba than. But I want to say this from the beginning because this frustrates me. I do not want to get drawn into better Elphaba discourse.

[57:04] Tommy: Oh, I wanted to have that conversation. I hate this, Jimmy. And I mean this so sincerely and so truly. I don't care in the way that other people care.

[57:22] Jimi: Yes, well, you should. Because the thing like what is a differentiator for you between who is a better and a worse Elphaba? Like if you pick.

[57:31] Tommy: So. What's number one on the list?

[57:33] Jimi: As in what is my best Elphaba or what is like what am I looking for?

[57:37] Tommy: If you had a matrix of like Elphabas on the left and moments you were going to talk about on the top.

[57:43] Jimi: I'm looking for. So for me, first and foremost is acting.

[57:50] Tommy: OK, sure. Right. And performance, particularly your wizarding eye and your No Good Deed. I actually don't really care about you Defying Gravity.

[58:00] Jimi: OK, so I need to see your transition. I'm more on board now because. Right.

[58:06] Tommy: But this is the problem. So much of this discourse is like confined to Bring Me Down.

[58:15] Jimi: Right. And fuck that. Who cares?

[58:25] Jimi: As, you know, Elphaba Farrakhan, we know our riffs, we know our… But it does come into it because the thing is, and I actually think it's kind of fair because vocally it's such a gauntlet, it is such a difficult piece that when you hear women singing it well, and sometimes, you know, stonkingly well, I don't know, you do get that kind of like, oh my god, it's like watching a good, I don't know, people watch, people who like sports, watch kicks, do you know what I mean? Like good kicks and things, or touchdowns, they watch those, or bats. But that's, oh man, also there's a, I think Billy Eichner hosts a piece, I don't know what late night talk show it was on, but it's where people tailgate Wicked, it's very funny.

We'll find it, we'll put it in the show notes. They all paint themselves, they paint their bellies green and they're like, yeah, Wicked! I love that. I've just been watching loads of Billy on the street in the past couple of days, that's funny. Yeah, I think it's him, I'll double check. But yes, I get it, and I don't, like, I don't care!

[59:43] Tommy: Ah, but you should care because it's fascinating. Like, it's, well maybe it's not fascinating, I don't know what, I don't know why, I don't know why I do it, but I am one of those, like, I have my top ten, and I know the specific performances where they did this riff and they nailed it. Like, I know, I've never made the videos myself, but I've certainly consumed them. And I think this is the self-revelation I'm having about myself, as someone who's made, my most popular videos are like, who's the best Mrs. Lovett, right? And like, I'm learning about myself. I don't, like,

[1:00:21] Jimi: You don't care.

[1:00:22] Tommy: Well, my discus-

[1:00:23] Jimi: No!

[1:00:24] Tommy: The word best is the wrong word for me in those discussions. I'm talking about who is supporting the content of the show most successfully. Which, people who are comparing Elphaba's, Because, you know, apples to apples, every performance of Wicked is about the same. It's about the same.

[1:00:51] Jimi: It's not, right, what I'll do, right, is I'll put in the show notes, like, three really good contrasting Elphys, right? Like, really good, and you'll hear, you can hear the difference in the storytelling.

[1:01:03] Tommy: A tasting of Elphys, if you will? A flight of Elphys?

[1:01:05] Jimi: Absolutely! A flight?

[1:01:08] Tommy: Alexi Akadere has, like, notes of, um, wounds. But, you know, Eden Espinosa has much more mossy undertones. I don't know.

[1:01:19] Jimi: We gotta cancel the podcast now. That's the funniest thing I've ever thought of.

[1:01:25] Tommy: Right? It totally works. Um, no, but you can hear, you can hear the- and this is, but this is a good thing, because you can hear these women, who are actors, acting. Like, and when it comes to musical theatre, that's what we want. We want to be able to hear the acting. Because when you can't see it, that's all you got. And when you can, and like, yeah, so I do have my favourite, and I think the best is Eden Espinosa.

[1:01:55] Jimi: See, and so, but this is me, and this is me, perhaps, and if this made it to last call, this won't make any sense, but trying to get around the task in Taskmaster, um, my absolute favourite Elphaba is Anna Gasteyer, but not in Wicked. Anna Gasteyer, you can find it on Playbill's YouTube channel, Anna Gasteyer performs Defying Gravity from the PBS series The Kate, and she does, like, a down-tempo ballad version of Defying Gravity that is the most beautiful interpretation of the song I have ever seen. And does- would not make sense in the context of the show.

[1:02:43] Tommy: Of the show, uh-huh.

[1:02:45] Jimi: And it's my favourite performance.

[1:02:46] Tommy: I must say, though, Anna Gasteyer is an incredible Elphaba.

[1:02:49] Jimi: She's awesome. I have no doubt. I adore Anna Gasteyer in everything she does. I also do it with Glinda's as well. My favourite's Kendra Kassebaum, but, you know, that's neither here nor there.

[1:02:59] Tommy: How do you feel-

[1:03:00] Jimi: What you'd like- so with Glinda, it's a bit- it's a bit more superficial.

[1:03:03] Tommy: Sure.

[1:03:04] Jimi: So, give me my moment to fucking fangirl, okay? Give me my moment.

[1:03:08] Tommy: No, absolutely, yes.

[1:03:10] Jimi: Right? So, um, with Glinda, the one you have to look for is, and thank goodness, when they take it up to the G. But it's really impressive!

[1:03:23] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:03:24] Jimi: Like, it's just really impr- you know, do-

[1:03:26] Tommy: But-

[1:03:27] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:03:28] Tommy: Like, when they-

[1:03:29] Jimi: And-

[1:03:30] Tommy: Come on!

[1:03:31] Jimi: And to your metaphor before, this is why I don't care about sports.

[1:03:34] Tommy: Right, fair. But this is where I can, you know, this is where I can sympathise.

[1:03:38] Jimi: Yeah, sure. No, totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1:03:39] Tommy: Where you would watch the replays, um, and be like, okay, now that was good. You nailed that. Um, yeah. So anyway, that's- I've kind of done- I actually don't- this is the reason why I wanted to do Wicked. So I'm happy to just- I'll go, if you can feel the rest of it.

[1:03:55] Jimi: It was amazing that-

[1:03:56] Tommy: But that's all I wanted to talk about.

[1:03:57] Jimi: People were putting predictions on Twitter, and they were like, I think Tommy's not going to like it, and Jimmy's going to have a bunch of different Elphaba's he enjoys. Um, and I very much enjoy Wicked.

[1:04:06] Tommy: Absolutely.

[1:04:07] Jimi: I do not enjoy best Elphaba discourse. I find it-

[1:04:13] Tommy: It's fine.

[1:04:14] Jimi: Uh, tedious.

[1:04:15] Tommy: But this is something we know about us, and from doing this podcast, is that I'm really actor focused.

[1:04:23] Jimi: Sure. And I'm much more production and story focused. Yeah.

[1:04:28] Tommy: Yeah, exactly. Like, that's a big part of it for me, is the performance. You know what

[1:04:35] Jimi: So, I think that lends itself to that narrative.

[1:04:38] Tommy: Who's your favorite wizard?

[1:04:41] Jimi: I don't care. I just don't care. I've never watched a video.

[1:04:45] Tommy: Who- Brandon Urie. I don't know if he's ever played the wizard, but I kind of want him to now.

[1:04:49] Jimi: Can you imagine- that would be hot. That wouldn't make sense, because he's too hot.

[1:04:56] Tommy: He'd be like, the fucking Oz, the Great and Powerful, like, Dave Franco, or James Franco. I can't remember which one he is.

[1:05:01] Jimi: I think it's James.

[1:05:03] Tommy: That's a bad film.

[1:05:04] Jimi: Ooh, hmm. I wonder if he's done it. Probably not. Andre De Shields.

[1:05:11] Tommy: Good point, actually. I don't know if he did do it or not.

[1:05:16] Jimi: I don't think he has. That'd be a good choice.

[1:05:19] Tommy: It would be. It would be. I'm here for it. I think he must have.

[1:05:25] Jimi: There's been so many wickeds.

[1:05:27] Tommy: There's been so many wickeds.

[1:05:29] Jimi: I like that this is an answerable internet question, but I want to leave it unknown for someone to tell us.

[1:05:35] Tommy: I'm ready for that. They'll be right in there. Because there will be people out there who have listened to the wizard videos. They're weird.

[1:05:40] Jimi: Yes.

[1:05:45] Tommy: Right? Elphaba's, not so much.

[1:05:48] Jimi: This is going to be-

[1:05:49] Tommy: Wizards, totally weird.

[1:05:50] Jimi: My return to YouTube is top 10 wizards from Wicked.

[1:05:56] Tommy: Top 10 sentimental man.

[1:05:57] Jimi: Top 10, top 10 doctor, top 10 Dr. Dillamond's from Wicked.

[1:06:01] Tommy: I'd watch. I don't mind that as much. Before we move on from talking about the content.

[1:06:09] Jimi: Yes.

[1:06:10] Tommy: Did you know they changed the accent in the UK?

[1:06:13] Jimi: Of the wizard?

[1:06:14] Tommy: Of everyone.

[1:06:15] Jimi: They're British?

[1:06:16] Tommy: Yes.

[1:06:17] Jimi: Fascinating.

[1:06:18] Tommy: And they sing in British.

[1:06:22] Jimi: How? I'm now doing-

[1:06:25] Tommy: That's such an interesting-

[1:06:30] Jimi: Yes. Have I been able to find a reason? No. So I would like to-

[1:06:37] Tommy: Because it's easier. Because I can watch the West End cast of Hamilton on the Oliviers and pick out, in the way that you can pick out terrible British accents, I can pick out very, very good, but still in that uncanny valley American accents.

[1:06:54] Jimi: But also what I'll say is, Glinda talks like this, like it's, it's like-

[1:06:58] Tommy: Like she gets an elevated British.

[1:07:00] Jimi: Like hyper British. So nobody speaks like that. So it's still an accent. It's still an accent.

[1:07:05] Tommy: And it is. It's not America, it's Oz. So there is no Oz-ian accent.

[1:07:09] Jimi: Absolutely. And so I don't know whether they've just done it to make it regional, but yeah, after Idina and Kristen left the- I don't actually know if Kristen did do it. After Idina left anyway, it went British.

[1:07:24] Tommy: Oh, I didn't even think about that, that they kept it American until their marquee stars left. Huh. That's even more fascinating.

[1:07:35] Jimi: But I don't think- I think it was Dan Pilkington to start with. That's something I should know.

[1:07:40] Tommy: But then why, why even bother? Why not just have some American accents and some British accents?

[1:07:46] Jimi: I don't know.

[1:07:47] Tommy: As I do know, like I've heard stories of regional productions in the UK of like American themed shows where they'll do their best to give everyone, you know, oh, if they can possibly have a Scottish accent because it might suit their character, we're going to do whatever we can to like bend their accent away from American. But I never thought about just like whole hog, you know, and why isn't that more prevalent? Why don't they do that with, I don't know, Mamma Mia?

[1:08:21] Jimi: Because there's not much fantasy musical, though.

[1:08:23] Tommy: Yeah, but who cares if the people-

[1:08:25] Jimi: Mamma Mia is British, though.

[1:08:27] Tommy: Yeah, but do they- so do they do British accents in-

[1:08:30] Jimi: I don't know if they do British accents in the States, but they do British accents in the UK.

[1:08:34] Tommy: They do American accents in the States. I'm pretty sure.

[1:08:36] Jimi: Oh, interesting. Well, there you go.

[1:08:38] Tommy: I'd have to look. Yeah, I guess you're right. There's not a lot of fantasy musical.

[1:08:42] Jimi: Were you allowed to just go accent free? Although what I will say, when they did the tour of Lion King, Zazu was Scottish and there was never anything worse than that. They made a joke about Irn Bru.

[1:08:56] Tommy: Really?

[1:08:57] Jimi: Yep.

[1:08:58] Tommy: That's terrible.

[1:08:59] Jimi: It was one of the worst things. No, like the production was incredible. That Zazu was like abysmal. It's annoying because I love The Morning Report. Anyway, wicked. It's- all I want to do right now is just go listen to the different riffs.

[1:09:17] Tommy: Oh!

[1:09:18] Jimi: And it's interesting because they're pre-approved and they're only allowed to do certain ones.

[1:09:22] Tommy: Really?

[1:09:23] Jimi: And Stephen Remus will have your ass. Yeah! Like, and so this is- but this is it. So, Eden.

[1:09:29] Tommy: Again, just give me- this is it.

[1:09:31] Jimi: I know, I'm listening.

[1:09:33] Tommy: I'm not lamenting you, I'm lamenting Broadway culture.

[1:09:36] Jimi: So, no, it's great.

[1:09:38] Tommy: Let them do the riff they want! They're professionals! Why does it need to be approved? Who cares?

[1:09:42] Jimi: Oh, I see. Because, you know, sometimes- but the thing is, is like sometimes you can go- with riffing in particular, you can go off the rails and you might not nail it. And then the stage manager gives you a note and you fix it next- like?

[1:09:56] Tommy: But so that's- so that's literally what happened. So Eden Espinosa went out and did- I think- was it the Defying Gravity one? I think it was Defying Gravity, which is now pretty much the most commonly used one because afterwards, Stephen Remus was like, you can't just go out and do that. If you want to do something new, you need to ask me first.

[1:10:17] Jimi: And then I'll check it and I'll let you know if you can do it.

[1:10:21] Tommy: But that's very good. So we're going to keep it and it's now one of the alternate ones that we teach.

[1:10:25] Jimi: Huh. How- man, that's going to be such a wild part in the MTI libretto whenever they publish it.

[1:10:31] Tommy: It's the-

[1:10:38] Jimi: And it's so- because like the original riff itself is a meme and like, goddammit, I hate-

[1:10:44] Tommy: No. No, you don't. It's really great.

[1:10:48] Jimi: I do. I really do.

[1:10:49] Tommy: It's weird, isn't it? Why people just get obsessed with our riff.

[1:10:51] Jimi: Because it's not- it's not the art.

[1:10:55] Tommy: But it is, though. It's the craft.

[1:10:57] Jimi: Which is- which is different from the art, I would wager.

[1:11:02] Tommy: Well-

[1:11:03] Jimi: I don't care how Van Gogh held his paintbrush.

[1:11:08] Tommy: But if he didn't, would it be the same? I don't know if that fits in.

[1:11:16] Jimi: We gotta get- we're getting out of here.

[1:11:17] Tommy: We're not doing something in the park with George.

[1:11:18] Jimi: I'm hopping on my Segway. We're getting out of here.

[1:11:20] Tommy: I'm jumping on it too. It's time.

[1:11:49] ♪ Musical number: "I Couldn't Be Happier" — performed by the Original Broadway Cast of Wicked ♪

[1:13:01] Jimi: It's time for Jim and Tomic's Theme Hour.

[1:13:16] Tommy: Do you know, there are a lot of, I wish there were more, but there are a few academic non-fiction books on musical theatre analysis.

[1:13:24] Jimi: There are indeed.

[1:13:27] Tommy: There is only one that I have been gifted twice.

[1:13:34] Jimi: It's called For Good.

[1:13:36] Tommy: It's called Changed For Good.

[1:13:38] Jimi: It's called Changed For Good.

[1:13:40] Tommy: And it's like a study of, it's a feminist study of musical theatre.

[1:13:44] Jimi: And on the cover is Elphaba and Glinda.

[1:13:49] Tommy: And I have two copies on my bookshelf.

[1:13:51] Jimi: One hardcover, one paperback, I think.

[1:13:52] Tommy: Oh, nice.

[1:13:53] Jimi: I didn't know they did a hardcover.

[1:13:56] Tommy: I think I'm looking now.

[1:13:58] Jimi: I can't find them.

[1:14:01] Tommy: I might have confused this.

[1:14:02] Jimi: Now I see I also have two copies of Nothing Like a Dame.

[1:14:06] Tommy: So...

[1:14:07] Jimi: Oh.

[1:14:08] Tommy: Which is the diva culture one.

[1:14:11] Jimi: Yes.

[1:14:12] Tommy: No.

[1:14:13] Jimi: Yes.

[1:14:14] Tommy: I have a lot of books and I can't keep track of them.

[1:14:16] Jimi: Yeah, fair.

[1:14:17] Tommy: It's the moral of the story.

[1:14:18] Jimi: Exactly.

[1:14:19] Tommy: Anyway.

[1:14:20] Jimi: Wicked!

[1:14:21] Tommy: Wicked!

[1:14:22] Jimi: The end.

[1:14:23] Tommy: Yes.

[1:14:24] Jimi: No.

[1:14:25] Tommy: A good point well made, because that's a good, the two essays about Wicked in that book are very good.

[1:14:31] Jimi: Yes.

[1:14:32] Tommy: Delightful.

[1:14:34] Jimi: And I think it kind of makes it clear why this show resonates with young females.

[1:14:43] Tommy: Yes.

[1:14:44] Jimi: In particular.

[1:14:45] Tommy: It's interesting because it speaks a lot about queer representation as well.

[1:14:54] Jimi: But not specifically related to it.

[1:14:57] Tommy: So like, it's definitely from a feminist perspective, but quite correctly highlights that this is also an important queer story as well.

[1:15:11] Jimi: I mean, there's a, I think it's a more recent interview and like, you know, quoting actors on analysis of their characters can be a problematic alley to fall down, but I think it might be both of them.

[1:15:21] Tommy: I think it's Adina and Kristen who said they're pretty sure had things gone differently, Glinda and Elphaba might have been girlfriends, lovers, something, something, something, which, you know?

[1:15:37] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:15:38] Tommy: Fair.

[1:15:40] Jimi: I mean, it's interesting because in the books, I mean, the books, there's no signs of that.

[1:15:44] Tommy: That's, that's not, that's not the case.

[1:15:48] Jimi: But they do just have a really interesting relationship, like a really complex female relationship.

[1:15:54] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:15:55] Jimi: Which is great.

[1:15:56] Tommy: And I'm glad that that's the thing that I would say is at the core of Stephen Schwartz's Wicked.

[1:16:02] Jimi: Yes.

[1:16:03] Tommy: Is their relationship.

[1:16:05] Jimi: Like, that's really what the thing is about.

[1:16:07] Tommy: The untold stories of the witches, the witches of Oz.

[1:16:10] Jimi: Yeah, they're both on the poster.

[1:16:13] Tommy: It's not.

[1:16:14] Jimi: Yeah, there is.

[1:16:15] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:16:17] Jimi: It's not just the Wicked.

[1:16:18] Tommy: Guess what happened to the Wicked Witches?

[1:16:19] Jimi: Like, it's these two and how they helped each other.

[1:16:23] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:16:24] Jimi: So I think, again, they talk about it quite a lot in one of those essays, but it's something that hadn't really hit me before is actually the musical storytelling of their platonic love story.

[1:16:37] Tommy: Sure.

[1:16:39] Jimi: And the fact that it mirrors your classic musical theater trope.

[1:16:45] Tommy: Love story.

[1:16:46] Jimi: Love storyline.

[1:16:47] Tommy: Because their meet cute in the same way as, like, Annie Get Your Gun or Carousel.

[1:16:55] Jimi: Their meet cute is bashing heads.

[1:16:59] Tommy: Anything you can do, I can do better.

[1:17:01] Jimi: Yeah, exactly.

[1:17:02] Tommy: It's they don't get on.

[1:17:03] Jimi: I mean, they really don't get on here, but it's that complete trope of we don't like each other.

[1:17:12] Tommy: And it's funny because they start it off as if it's deep love.

[1:17:19] Jimi: Because my heart is racing, my face is flushing, what is this feeling?

[1:17:22] Tommy: It's hatred.

[1:17:23] Jimi: Right.

[1:17:24] Tommy: That's really funny.

[1:17:26] Jimi: And then, obviously, they don't have a proper, proper duet again, till for good.

[1:17:33] Tommy: But you could argue that popular is a duet.

[1:17:36] Jimi: Sure.

[1:17:37] Tommy: Just because it's so involved with the two of them.

[1:17:40] Jimi: In its performance, it is a duet on stage, absolutely.

[1:17:44] Tommy: Exactly.

[1:17:45] Jimi: Exactly.

[1:17:46] Tommy: And the same way with their interaction in Dancing Through Life and the dance break.

[1:17:51] Jimi: Is them falling in love.

[1:17:52] Tommy: Like, that's their falling in love moment.

[1:17:56] Jimi: Even without music or underscoring, but the, you know, we can't all travel by bubble fight.

[1:18:01] Tommy: Yes.

[1:18:02] Jimi: Aha.

[1:18:03] Tommy: Is a two-hander.

[1:18:04] Jimi: Like, is this such an important scene?

[1:18:07] Tommy: It is.

[1:18:08] Jimi: And that, again, sits in the tropes so well of the conflict, when they fall out of love because they have the argument, and then they come back together at the end, realizing that they're much better together than they are apart, right?

[1:18:21] Tommy: It's just so, it's really well written.

[1:18:25] Jimi: And actually, until I'd read that in that book, I hadn't realized quite how well written it was.

[1:18:30] Tommy: Oh, it's so good.

[1:18:32] Jimi: I mean, even the interstitial bits in Defying Gravity are some of the most moving parts of the show.

[1:18:38] Tommy: Absolutely.

[1:18:39] Jimi: And it's, it's, it's the respect that's passing between the two.

[1:18:43] Tommy: I hope you're happy now that you're choosing this.

[1:18:45] Jimi: I hope it brings you bliss.

[1:18:46] Tommy: Yes.

[1:18:47] Jimi: It's, yeah, it is.

[1:18:48] Tommy: It's that beautiful mutual respect between these two characters.

[1:18:54] Jimi: And again, musical theater, quite notorious for being anti-feminist in a lot of its portrayals of women.

[1:19:05] Tommy: And mostly, you know, due to the fact that a lot of musicals are love stories, and those love stories happen to be heteronormative, male-centric love stories.

[1:19:18] Jimi: Exactly.

[1:19:19] Tommy: Male-centric being the off-the-point here.

[1:19:21] Jimi: What I love in this, Fiyero doesn't get a look in.

[1:19:24] Tommy: I know.

[1:19:25] Jimi: Fiyero's just like, who even is he?

[1:19:26] Tommy: Nobody cares.

[1:19:27] Jimi: It does.

[1:19:28] Tommy: It does make me, God, I wish he was there less sometimes, really.

[1:19:32] Jimi: Right.

[1:19:33] Tommy: Uh-huh.

[1:19:34] Jimi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1:19:35] Tommy: Because it does, and like, I don't, I'm not well-versed enough to know how this compares to the original book.

[1:19:40] Jimi: I wish Fiyero was a little less important, because I think Elphaba and Glinda's story is interesting enough without a competitive love interest.

[1:19:52] Tommy: And that seems like a mainstream cop-out that is somewhere between mildly helpful and not necessary.

[1:20:03] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:20:04] Tommy: I think it is unnecessary, because it's not in the books.

[1:20:08] Jimi: He doesn't have a relationship with Glinda.

[1:20:11] Tommy: He is just purely in love with Elphaba, and it's a really raw carnal—

[1:20:15] Jimi: That's really disappointing to me, because you could rewrite it out.

[1:20:21] Tommy: You know, we begin Act 2, we're really excited that Glinda's being anointed first vizier to the Wizard, and we're so excited.

[1:20:32] Jimi: So Fiyero's here, he's head of the militia.

[1:20:35] Tommy: On to the next scene, right?

[1:20:37] Jimi: Right, right, right, right.

[1:20:40] Tommy: But, they didn't go full into it, because what's quite good is that neither of them—

[1:20:49] Jimi: their relationship is never perfect.

[1:20:51] Tommy: Do you know what I mean?

[1:20:52] Jimi: It's never like, I love and I'm happy and I'm settled.

[1:20:55] Tommy: Even in Thank Goodness, she talks about, there's a kind of a sort of cuss, there's a couple of things he had lost.

[1:21:00] Jimi: There are bridges you crossed you didn't know you crossed until you've crossed, and it's that joy that—

[1:21:07] Tommy: Which reprises later, right?

[1:21:08] Jimi: Right.

[1:21:09] Tommy: It doesn't thrill like you think it will, like, she's just talking about how disappointed she is in love, because she's not got her best friend by her side anymore.

[1:21:19] Jimi: And she realizes in that moment, actually, that's so much more important.

[1:21:24] Tommy: And then, you know, goes on to make some silly decisions.

[1:21:29] Jimi: Fiyero ends up being killed, you know, but also, it just doesn't really, it doesn't really matter.

[1:21:36] Tommy: Right.

[1:21:37] Jimi: Because even after Elphie brings Fiyero back to life, their love story, like, yes, they might run off together in the end, but it's kind of just by proxy.

[1:21:54] Tommy: It's not, it's not the story.

[1:21:57] Jimi: Which is delightful, and I think for its time is very progressive.

[1:22:01] Tommy: I'm curious in like, because also, like, one of the reasons to include Fiyero was because we got to round out the trio of the Scarecrow, the Tin Man, and the Lion, where they come from.

[1:22:13] Jimi: And so we got to spend enough time on him that he makes sense.

[1:22:16] Tommy: Same with Bach.

[1:22:17] Jimi: I think we do the least with the Lion.

[1:22:21] Tommy: And God, I wish they didn't make him a love interest.

[1:22:27] Jimi: Or make him a love interest, like he is in the books, but yeah, because that's the other thing.

[1:22:32] Tommy: And this is something, I don't know where I stand on this, and I always get into arguments with people about this.

[1:22:38] Jimi: So Elphaba just dies in the books.

[1:22:41] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:22:42] Jimi: Spoilers.

[1:22:43] Tommy: That's the thing I knew.

[1:22:44] Jimi: Well, she dies in the film.

[1:22:47] Tommy: Right.

[1:22:48] Jimi: But that's propaganda.

[1:22:49] Tommy: That's true.

[1:22:52] Jimi: But yeah, it's but actually it is ambiguous.

[1:22:55] Tommy: To be fair, it is ambiguous in the book.

[1:22:58] Jimi: It's ambiguous.

[1:22:59] Tommy: And it continues to be a biggest and actually continues to be a bit of a plot point, which is extremely well written about and out of Oz, the fourth one, share with the granddaughter.

[1:23:10] Jimi: Anyway.

[1:23:11] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:23:12] Jimi: So there's, there is these changes because that's like the kind of running off into the sunset together.

[1:23:16] Tommy: Yeah, it's fine.

[1:23:19] Jimi: But you don't like, you're not like, oh, thank God she's with Fiyero, like, that isn't what you feel like.

[1:23:24] Tommy: You're actually just like, it's so sad.

[1:23:26] Jimi: She can't be with Glinda.

[1:23:28] Tommy: Yeah, because the emotional impact is centered on like, you know, it is this is a protagonist discussion, right?

[1:23:34] Jimi: Who's the protagonist?

[1:23:36] Tommy: Is it Elphaba or Glinda?

[1:23:37] Jimi: And like, right.

[1:23:39] Tommy: You know, there's an argument to be made that the show is written in a way that the protagonist is Glinda, that we center our emotional audience read in, in her, you know, emotional reaction to this moment, which rings the same at the end of the show, whether Elphaba dies or Elphaba survives and Glinda doesn't know.

[1:23:59] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:24:00] Tommy: It is still the same reaction for Glinda.

[1:24:02] Jimi: And then I like adjacent to that, I see the kind of like little shop reading between like in a movie.

[1:24:08] Tommy: Well, no, I guess that's the opposite.

[1:24:12] Jimi: Hmm.

[1:24:13] Tommy: You should be more comfortable with killing them in the musical.

[1:24:18] Jimi: Because you're going to see them come back at the curtain call, you know?

[1:24:21] Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

[1:24:22] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:24:23] Tommy: Hmm.

[1:24:24] Jimi: Yeah, no, I hadn't thought about that.

[1:24:25] Tommy: I knew she died in the book, but I hadn't thought about the repercut, like, what if you wrote it where she died in the musical?

[1:24:30] Jimi: How does that play out?

[1:24:33] Tommy: Because the thing is, is Glinda still thinks she's dead.

[1:24:38] Jimi: Glinda doesn't have a, like, she doesn't secretly know.

[1:24:42] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:24:43] Jimi: And how she's dead.

[1:24:44] Tommy: Like, the only thing is, is just to give it that pure, happy ending.

[1:24:47] Jimi: But I do, and I'm, I'm solidifying this thought in my head for maybe the first time.

[1:24:52] Tommy: But I do think this is a distinct difference in how we appreciate these art forms is that, you know, you've, you've been backstage at opening night where the director says, we're so excited to invite our last cast member to our production, the audience, right?

[1:25:07] Jimi: It's a trope and a metaphor people use that we don't use in a movie.

[1:25:12] Tommy: Right.

[1:25:13] Jimi: Yeah, yeah.

[1:25:14] Tommy: And like, so the audience does get one more beat of emotional reckoning in like, oh, thank God she came out of that trap door.

[1:25:27] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:25:28] Tommy: In the musical.

[1:25:31] Jimi: And as well, I guess, they do sing together at the end.

[1:25:37] Tommy: Yeah, which would be harder to do.

[1:25:39] Jimi: I mean, you can do it in an Into the Woods style, but, you know, issue ghost.

[1:25:43] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:25:44] Jimi: Like, you want to get that emotional moment of their voices next to each other either way.

[1:25:48] Tommy: So you have to get her physical actress body out on stage.

[1:25:52] Jimi: She needs to be there.

[1:25:53] Tommy: So do you write it into the story or write it into the stage mechanics?

[1:25:57] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:25:58] Tommy: Yeah, I don't know.

[1:26:01] Jimi: And it is an interesting one.

[1:26:02] Tommy: I think, I don't think it makes it any less feminist if she does die.

[1:26:07] Jimi: Sure.

[1:26:08] Tommy: You know what I mean?

[1:26:13] Jimi: I don't know.

[1:26:14] Tommy: I don't know.

[1:26:15] Jimi: But it's not, I don't hate the show because of it.

[1:26:18] Tommy: You know what I mean?

[1:26:19] Jimi: It's just, to me, it's a shame because I always love a death.

[1:26:23] Tommy: Sure.

[1:26:24] Jimi: I wonder if, because that feels like a focus group decision, right?

[1:26:29] Tommy: That feels like a universal pictures, writer's room.

[1:26:33] Jimi: Exactly.

[1:26:34] Tommy: That's the chorus line Cassie gets into the line, as opposed to not, you know what I mean?

[1:26:41] Jimi: At the end of it.

[1:26:42] Tommy: Yeah, I could see that happening.

[1:26:43] Jimi: And, you know, as much as that's kind of like shitty art by committee kind of stuff, doesn't make it less true, right?

[1:26:51] Tommy: No, exactly.

[1:26:52] Jimi: Would people be more upset with the show if she died?

[1:26:59] Tommy: And also there is that thing, because obviously she does die in the film and the books.

[1:27:06] Jimi: So you get that moment of, actually, she was alive!

[1:27:11] Tommy: The untold story.

[1:27:12] Jimi: Yeah, exactly.

[1:27:14] Tommy: Right.

[1:27:15] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:27:16] Tommy: And it does, in the structure of the musical, you know, as we've talked, the first lines of the musical are the whole story.

[1:27:21] Jimi: Good news, she's dead.

[1:27:26] Tommy: And to pull a full reversal on that.

[1:27:30] Jimi: That's fun.

[1:27:31] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:27:32] Jimi: And, you know, it does kind of feed into the books a little bit, because there is a question mark.

[1:27:38] Jimi: And he just gives the other side of it. Fair enough, Stevie.

[1:27:41] Tommy: And I doubt we're not going to make a Wicked 2 at this point.

[1:27:44] Jimi: No. Although it'd be cool that it wouldn't work. The other books do not adapt.

[1:27:49] Tommy: No. Musical theatre sequels are never successful.

[1:27:54] Jimi: No.

[1:27:55] Tommy: Full stop.

[1:27:56] Jimi: Full stop.

[1:27:57] Tommy: Don't try.

[1:27:59] Jimi: Bessel the Whorehouse comes back. Whatever the second Annie is.

[1:28:02] Tommy: Bring Back Birdie.

[1:28:03] Jimi: Grease 2.

[1:28:05] Tommy: Although Grease 2...

[1:28:07] Jimi: If there is one exception...

[1:28:10] Tommy: Actually...

[1:28:11] Jimi: Love Never Dies.

[1:28:13] Tommy: No.

[1:28:14] Jimi: Frozen 2.

[1:28:15] Tommy: Has a movie, though.

[1:28:17] Jimi: Yeah, but if they stage that...

[1:28:19] Tommy: Fair. Although the first didn't do well enough for them to do it.

[1:28:23] Jimi: Which is unfortunate.

[1:28:23] Tommy: I know. But I think Frozen 2... Anyway, fuck it, we're not talking about that.

[1:28:27] Jimi: Although, Edina, weird.

[1:28:30] Tommy: Follow-up stage production, Lion King 1 1⁄2.

[1:28:33] Jimi: Lion King 2, thank you very much. Simba's Pride.

[1:28:37] Tommy: All of them. Let's do all of them. I want a Lion King cinematic universe.

[1:28:41] Jimi: Absolutely. I must say that 1 1⁄2 is very good.

[1:28:46] Tommy: One thing I do want to note, speaking of it as a feminist piece, though, is the other incarnations, or the other literal incarnations, I should say, also have weird interjections with women and womanity, if that's a term. Is that a term?

[1:29:06] Jimi: I don't know. What do you mean?

[1:29:08] Tommy: Kind of. As in, like, the nature of women.

[1:29:11] Jimi: Okay. Sure.

[1:29:13] Tommy: Womankind, as opposed to mankind.

[1:29:15] Jimi: Womankind. Yes. Womanity.

[1:29:18] Tommy: Womanity. I like that.

[1:29:18] Jimi: I guess manity is...

[1:29:19] Tommy: I know. Now there's a bad connotation.

[1:29:22] Jimi: Manity.

[1:29:23] Tommy: But it's a fun word. I don't know.

[1:29:25] Jimi: We're men. We're not allowed to...

[1:29:27] Tommy: We can't coin terms. Anyway, L. Frank Baum's original stories were written at the time of the women's suffrage movement.

[1:29:37] Jimi: In America.

[1:29:39] Tommy: Right. Gregory Maguire's adaptations were written in the mid-90s when we were having the Spice Girls. Becoming an institution and this idea of girl power and moving away from the 80s, you know, women are in an office and should wear high heels, to women are people.

[1:30:05] Jimi: Women are people.

[1:30:06] Tommy: And let's give them power.

[1:30:08] Jimi: They'll tell you what they want, what they really, really want.

[1:30:11] Tommy: Exactly. So I think that's really interesting that what Stephen Schwartz has made, making this love story between two women, is a complete product of the original piece. Because actually, all of the books, all of the main characters are women.

[1:30:29] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:30:29] Tommy: Like Tin Man and Cowardly Lion, etc. aside, they are kind of just the bystanders.

[1:30:37] Jimi: But Auntie Em, Dorothy, the Wicked Witch, Glinda, there's other... Ozzia is the god of Oz, and that's a girl.

[1:30:48] Tommy: Like, there's just women.

[1:30:53] Jimi: In the same Gregory Maguire's, you've got Glinda, you've got Elphaba, Madame Morrible. There's another woman called Yackle, who doesn't appear in the musical.

[1:31:05] Tommy: Very female-centric.

[1:31:06] Jimi: And I just think that's a quite a cool thing that that's a part of this Oz world.

[1:31:11] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:31:19] Jimi: I'm trying to think.

[1:31:26] Tommy: Name a women-centric musical before Wicked.

[1:31:31] Jimi: I know.

[1:31:32] Tommy: Right?

[1:31:32] Jimi: But no, like, come on.

[1:31:34] Tommy: No, but it's hard.

[1:31:36] Jimi: But women-centric is really tricky, because like, in some ways, even like Hairspray.

[1:31:43] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:31:44] Jimi: Even though a man plays one of the main women.

[1:31:47] Tommy: I think there's some problematic stuff there.

[1:31:48] Jimi: No, but fair, but a fair cop. But...

[1:31:51] Tommy: Gypsy.

[1:31:54] Jimi: It's because of the love stories, right?

[1:31:58] Tommy: But they detract, because it's a core part of their narrative.

[1:32:02] Jimi: Whereas, that's what I'm saying in this, is like Fiyero isn't really a core. Like, he provides some conflict between the two of them.

[1:32:09] Tommy: Sure.

[1:32:10] Jimi: Sure.

[1:32:11] Tommy: But he's not a part of their story.

[1:32:15] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:32:16] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:32:18] Jimi: Like their story, as in the story of, you know what I mean?

[1:32:21] Tommy: But like, Herbie is a really important part of Mama Rosa's story.

[1:32:27] Jimi: Right.

[1:32:27] Tommy: Like, and a lot of plot points don't happen without him.

[1:32:32] Jimi: Exactly.

[1:32:32] Tommy: He kind of, you know, he's the encouraging one. In the same way with Hairspray. Whereas I think, in separate occasions across the course of this entire episode, we have said variously, you could drastically cut down the wizard, Bach, or Fiyero in this story, and...

[1:32:50] Jimi: Absolutely.

[1:32:50] Tommy: Doesn't really matter.

[1:32:52] Jimi: Doesn't matter.

[1:32:52] Tommy: Like, sure, they need to be there. Plot points, absolutely. But you don't need to flesh them out.

[1:32:56] Jimi: They don't need numbers.

[1:32:57] Tommy: No.

[1:32:57] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:32:58] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:32:59] Jimi: Bach doesn't need a cell.

[1:33:01] Tommy: Give Madden Morrible a song.

[1:33:02] Jimi: Yeah, why doesn't she have a song?

[1:33:05] Tommy: Just because she's just shy, isn't she?

[1:33:08] Jimi: She does have the best speech, though.

[1:33:11] Tommy: Oh my God.

[1:33:13] Jimi: That monologue is really good and very powerful.

[1:33:16] Tommy: This book, the whole, and like the book book, not the novel book.

[1:33:21] Jimi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1:33:24] Tommy: Winnie Holtzman.

[1:33:25] Jimi: Who, this is, she had written a play, but this is her first musical theater.

[1:33:29] Tommy: I think she's done TV before, but yeah, first musical.

[1:33:33] Jimi: And I think she had done some theater playwriting stuff.

[1:33:37] Tommy: Right.

[1:33:38] Jimi: No, I'm wrong. Hold on. Fuck me. This is totally wrong. While at NYU, she wrote the musical Birds of Paradise.

[1:33:43] Tommy: Rewind.

[1:33:45] Jimi: Oh, okay. But nothing on Broadway, like nothing.

[1:33:48] Tommy: Winnie Holtzman, and this is her first Broadway musical.

[1:33:53] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:33:54] Tommy: It's kick-ass.

[1:33:56] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:33:57] Tommy: The book for this show is so good. And we haven't even delved into, mostly because there's not a lot of write-ups about it. But there was some legal struggle about, in one of the original drafts of the book of the musical, there was a lot more references to the MGM film that they could not get the rights to.

[1:34:16] Jimi: And it's why I think they're like crystal studded shoes instead of ruby slippers and things like that.

[1:34:22] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:34:23] Jimi: But also the aforementioned, you know, pears and peaches and melons, oh my. There's, at one point, like-

[1:34:31] Tommy: Well, we can't come and go by Bubble.

[1:34:33] Jimi: Like, one of the best lines.

[1:34:35] Tommy: Or even, I think The Wizard says to Elphaba at some point, like, I love Oz. And she's like, me too. There's no place like home.

[1:34:43] Jimi: Which is a reference to the book, but we know it because it's from the movie.

[1:34:48] Tommy: Yeah, exactly.

[1:34:49] Jimi: The way the libretto tap dances around, not quite referencing the movie, it's so good.

[1:34:58] Tommy: It's so well written.

[1:35:00] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:35:02] Tommy: Yeah, mad ploddits.

[1:35:03] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:35:06] Tommy: So, well done.

[1:35:08] Jimi: Yeah, all around.

[1:35:10] Tommy: Wicked.

[1:35:10] Jimi: It's a pretty good show.

[1:35:12] Tommy: It is.

[1:35:13] Jimi: It is indeed.

[1:35:15] Tommy: Let's talk business.

[1:35:17] Jimi: Every moment, as long as you're mine, I'll wake up my body and make up for lost time.

[1:35:34] Tommy: There's no future for us as a pair.

[1:35:43] Jimi: I may know, I don't care, just for this moment.

[1:35:53] Tommy: As long as you're mine, come be how you want to.

[1:35:59] Jimi: And see how bright we shine, follow the moonlight until it is through.

[1:36:18] Tommy: And I will be here holding you.

[1:36:29] Jimi: As long as you're mine.

[1:36:40] Tommy: I am a sentimental skit.

[1:36:45] Jimi: Ooh, also, I don't know if this will fit in here or not, but there's a video online backstage in the percussion pit for this show.

[1:36:55] Tommy: Oh my god, I know the video.

[1:36:56] Jimi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1:36:57] Tommy: The second percussionist in the show is wild. Has a microphone on his baseball cap so he can put it near the bizarre and interesting rhythm instruments that live in like a secret basement under the theater.

[1:37:11] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:37:12] Tommy: So cool. Percussion pit cams, by the way, are so fascinating.

[1:37:18] Jimi: The Les Mis revival one.

[1:37:20] Tommy: I will, like, one of my late night YouTube spirals will be any kind of orchestra pit, conductor cam, instrument cam.

[1:37:28] Jimi: I am always so curious about, and it's also so satisfying.

[1:37:37] Tommy: There's a great one of Wicked, and they're all, like, these are audition materials for the conductors, right? Like, that's why they're out there. It's like, look at what a good job I do. And there's one where it's defying gravity, because that's the thing you want to conduct, and it's just a conductor cam, but you can, like, see the fog start rolling in, and you see her, like, taking vamps.

[1:38:06] Jimi: Bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, and then they'll keep going. And then, so we've got to bring her, and then she, like, waits to see whatever the riff is.

[1:38:11] Tommy: No, it's not the riff.

[1:38:14] Jimi: It's not controlled by the riff, it's controlled by the staging.

[1:38:17] Tommy: So she, um, I can't remember the exact, I should know.

[1:38:21] Jimi: Sure.

[1:38:21] Tommy: Naughty. I'll link to Stephanie J Block explaining it. But basically, um, she's here, or is this no good? This is the end of No Good Deed, but Defying Gravity is similar. Um, so she's here, um, no good deed, will I do again? And she turns, and then that is your upbeat, and then she throws it forward, and then that's the cue.

[1:38:47] Jimi: That's so cool.

[1:38:48] Tommy: For the button. Like, it's so good. Like, it's, again, this beautiful, well-oiled machine. The whole, the whole thing, and I remember the first time I saw it in Chicago, you could tell it was, like, uh, you know, the, the B team stage manager or something. Um, especially, the big one is that the, it's, like, halfway through Dancing Through Life, bump, bump, and, like, all the Christmas lights come on, and you, you could tell it was a half a beat late, and it was just wrong.

[1:39:12] Jimi: It's just, like, a missed cue.

[1:39:13] Tommy: And I was, like, damn it, that's a mistake. I make it, and I'm a high schooler. That's really sad.

[1:39:18] Jimi: But my favorite thing.

[1:39:18] Tommy: Especially because, like, you're in the rhythm.

[1:39:20] Jimi: I know, you should just do it.

[1:39:21] Tommy: You should be able to just hit it, go.

[1:39:22] Jimi: Well, nowadays, we're probably right before, nowadays, many more, like, post-Hairspray, are just on a click track. And, like, everyone's just on a click track. The conductor's on a click track, like, just, just, you hit go, and away we go. But my favorite thing about the Defying Gravity Wicked Conductor Cam is you can see that all of the orchestra pit stand lights are also controlled by the lighting system, so they're all part of the theatrical lighting system, as opposed to being just plugged into the wall.

[1:39:57] Tommy: Because on the final beat, bump, they all turn off, so that it can be pitch black in the theater.

[1:40:07] Jimi: And the idea, you're done playing the music, you don't need to see your music in that moment. And so they just turn them all off, which is such, like, that attention to detail.

[1:40:21] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:40:22] Jimi: And that's probably, like, they probably didn't do that first. They probably were like, oh, we can see the pit lights in certain scenes, we need to be able to control how this works. But, like, that's, oh, those moments in theater. And no one knows.

[1:40:37] Tommy: I am a theatrical professional and didn't notice it the four or five times I've seen Wicked.

[1:40:43] Jimi: It took me, like, deep diving into a backstage video to notice it.

[1:40:46] Tommy: But I find that interesting, because surely not all, because I can't actually remember what the pit is like in the Apollo, and, uh, what was it, the New Amsterdam? At least in Chicago, there's the main stage floor is like a big circular gear, and then there are two other gears left and right that protrude a little further.

[1:41:08] Jimi: So then you end up with this, like, scalloped opening where the conductor's at, and then you can kind of see down in there.

[1:41:14] Tommy: Right, okay.

[1:41:15] Jimi: The Chicago Theater, I'd have to double check. I think that Apollo, no, I think about it, though, I actually think that Apollo is not understage. You can, like, see the conductor and all.

[1:41:23] Tommy: It's not like a conductor cam.

[1:41:25] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:41:27] Tommy: So, and I don't know what it was in the New Am, but, you know, that sort of, that stuff is, I love that stuff.

[1:41:33] Jimi: That's your alphabet riffs.

[1:41:40] Tommy: Yeah. Give me a conductor cam any day. A dusty black and white, infrared, you know, unflattering angle of a guy in a microphone going like, one, two, ba-da-da-da-da-da, and then seeing the lights change and he, like, laughs at it when he's like, ah, you got that, oh, that time, that inside joke we have, oboe player, like.

[1:43:14] Jimi: Have I told you that I've had Paul Gemignani and Paul Giamatti confusion for a very long time? I thought they were the same person. I thought it was a very talented actor-slash-conductor. Different people, I have since learned. I think Paul Gemignani could act. Could Paul Giamatti conduct? Definitely not. He could do Paul Gemignani's style. I want a Freaky Friday where they change places. A very niche Freaky Friday. I'm here for it. Anyway.

[1:43:59] Tommy: ‘Wicked, Jimmy. It's still playing. It's still going. Well, you know. In theory. There's no business like no business like no business like none. Right. Yeah, it is. And I can't see it closing.

[1:44:17] Jimi: No, which is perhaps the development hell that the movie's been stuck in.

[1:44:22] Tommy: Yeah, perhaps. But also, what I will say, it's definitely not the same musical it was since Hamilton came out.

[1:44:36] Jimi: What do you mean?

[1:44:38] Tommy: Because Hamilton is the new hype bus, like extreme hype bus.

[1:44:44] Jimi: Right. And to be honest, I'm actually a lot more surprised at how well Hamilton is doing in the West End. It's doing a lot better than I expected it to.

[1:44:56] Tommy: Yeah. I still don't know if it will have the 20 year, 25 year long.

[1:45:02] Jimi: Yeah, run that.

[1:45:04] Tommy: Right. Not 20, sorry, 17 years. But.

[1:45:11] Jimi: I.

[1:45:13] Tommy: Yeah, it's surprised me how well it's done.

[1:45:16] Jimi: Yeah. So.

[1:45:20] Tommy: But that has definitely taken the sting off of the big, mad Wicked. Because now no longer when you speak to the musical theatre layman, do they say, oh, yeah, I love Wicked.

[1:45:31] Jimi: Right.

[1:45:32] Tommy: It's, oh, yeah, I love Hamilton.

[1:45:34] Jimi: Right.

[1:45:36] Tommy: Right.

[1:45:38] Jimi: Like that's the new go to.

[1:45:40] Tommy: It's a freaking joke in Knives Out.

[1:45:42] Jimi: It's like, oh, Hamilton.

[1:45:44] Tommy: Yeah, you're so right.

[1:45:46] Jimi: You're so right. Like that, that, like it has been an ouroboros and like is starting to eat its tail.

[1:45:52] Tommy: The Hamiltonian culture.

[1:45:54] Jimi: Yeah. That's exactly it. A movie.

[1:46:00] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:46:02] Jimi: Would help stoke a flame there.

[1:46:04] Tommy: Absolutely.

[1:46:06] Jimi: And give it a bit more energy and maybe get it out another 10 years.

[1:46:08] Tommy: Yeah. Especially if it was a good movie.

[1:46:12] Jimi: What do you think?

[1:46:14] Tommy: If it was a bad movie.

[1:46:16] Jimi: If it was a bad movie, can you imagine?

[1:46:18] Tommy: Death Metal. Although, well, you know, like Cats is going to be a cult classic.

[1:46:22] Jimi: But that's, that's the thing. Like Cats went there.

[1:46:26] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:46:28] Jimi: It's a cult classic in the zeitgeist.

[1:46:30] Tommy: Right.

[1:46:32] Jimi: Yeah. Whereas like Wicked is respected.

[1:46:36] Tommy: Right. Exactly.

[1:46:40] Jimi: What do you think? Like, you know, we're, we're, we're analysts. Isn't, isn't Wicked the fifth longest running on Broadway?

[1:46:46] Tommy: Something like that. I think it's harder than that though too. Or maybe it's one of the five to pass a billion. It's broken a ton of records, right?

[1:46:54] Jimi: Okay. What's, what's in its way?

[1:46:58] Tommy: So, oh, this is.

[1:47:00] Jimi: Oh.

[1:47:04] Tommy: That's a surprise.

[1:47:06] Jimi: Okay.

[1:47:08] Tommy: Starlight.

[1:47:10] Jimi: And I was wondering, is it including Germany in that?

[1:47:12] Tommy: But it's not. Mamma Mia, which I knew. Cats, Lion King, Chicago, Blood Brothers, Phantom, Les Mis.

[1:47:18] Jimi: But, currently running, then you've just got Lion King, Phantom.

[1:47:24] Tommy: Les Mis for the West End.

[1:47:26] Jimi: Okay. But like, what keeps the Wicked lights on, you know?

[1:47:34] Tommy: Yeah. Is a fascinating question. That producers across the country would like the answer to, you know?

[1:47:42] Jimi: Absolutely, absolutely.

[1:47:44] Tommy: Yeah. I mean, it's, it's good, it's good story and spectacle.

[1:47:50] Jimi: It is easily accessible on its first watch. And you can find new things on a rewatch.

[1:48:00] Tommy: Is a spectacle if it's your 50th time.

[1:48:06] Jimi: Yeah. There is your fancy culture of, how will they do this riff? Which, as much as I poo-poo, it shouldn't be discredited, right?

[1:48:16] Tommy: Not at all. There's definite repeat offenders there.

[1:48:20] Jimi: Yeah, I think it's, because if you look at that list, I would say the only other one that I would put in a similar bracket would be Les Mis.

[1:48:32] Tommy: Because of, it's like, for as much as it's hugely commercial, it's not lowbrow.

[1:48:40] Jimi: Yeah, yeah. Whereas your Cats, your Mamma Mia's, Lion King, it's not lowbrow, but it's still an event.

[1:48:48] Tommy: It's not... You can go to it with an understanding just of the spectacle.

[1:48:56] Jimi: Yes, exactly. And that is really, that is the main appeal. Whereas I think for Wicked, actually, it is the sum of all of its parts, which make it good.

[1:49:04] Tommy: I also think, and perhaps this will trickle into our next point, but it also, I would say, maybe save for Lion King, but I think there's a debate there, has the broadest demographic of a lot of those shows. You know, you don't want to bring your seven-year-old to Les Mis.

[1:49:20] Jimi: Or if you do, they're me at seven, but you're not going to bring a field trip of seven-year-olds to Les Mis. They're going to get really bored.

[1:49:30] Tommy: Yeah. You could probably bring a field trip of seven-year-olds to Wicked and have a pretty high success rate.

[1:49:36] Jimi: I think Lion King's on that list, too, because it's, you know, ergo Disney. And also, it's like, it's just like, oh wow, wow, because it's Spectacle, Spectacle, Spectacle.

[1:49:46] Tommy: But yeah, I think there is a huge audience for it, but also the kind of core target audience of the kind of tween to like mid to late twenties spans such a broad amount of time that they are going to keep going back.

[1:50:06] Jimi: But even I would say, you know, my mom loves Wicked. Like, I think, my dad loves Wicked. Like, I think their quote-unquote core target audience is just a big bucket. Sorry, target audience isn't what I meant.

[1:50:28] Tommy: Okay. Like, the I guess kind of like the sweet spot audience.

[1:50:34] Jimi: Sure. Do you know what I mean? Like the audience that will, the voracious. An untapped audience in other, this is the like Spring Awakening, Wicked, Avenue Q, the youngening of Broadway that we kind of saw in the early 2000s.

[1:50:46] Tommy: Perhaps mostly because of, or you know, in large part because of Wicked.

[1:50:54] Jimi: Because of Wicked. I think fully because of Wicked because before that there was nothing that was as much of an event.

[1:51:00] Tommy: I mean, we're still, we're in the dark years of recovering from the AIDS pandemic.

[1:51:06] Jimi: Well, but you know, I mean like we're still kind of the Euro musical is just starting to fade out now.

[1:51:14] Tommy: So, fully because I'm trying to think what else actually was still running at that time.

[1:51:22] Jimi: Yeah, I mean, we're coming off of let's see Hairspray was the year before Millie, the producers.

[1:51:30] Tommy: Millie, so that's I'd say Millie Hairspray. Millie in particular because of Sutton had a like the seeds were planted and then I think Wicked was the water that made them grow.

[1:51:48] Jimi: Like yeah, Wicked just it really hit the nail on the head for this kind of voracious fan culture because I don't know why I don't know maybe because it's like it's not just one strong woman. It's two strong women. You know, I mean like it could be something as simple as that. There's two people there that I can obsess over and you're either an Elphaba or you're a Galinda.

[1:52:14] Tommy: And you can choose whereas if you just go see Millie, you can only be a Millie Dilmont. Do you know what I mean? No one's going to be a Muzzy.

[1:52:24] Jimi: Right.

[1:52:26] Tommy: There's a t-shirt. No one's going to be a Muzzy.

[1:52:30] Jimi: But I also think this season in particular is really fascinating and significant because it is kind of like the origin story of the contemporary Broadway that we're seeing today. Like I would happily try and argue that.

[1:52:54] Tommy: And it just so happens that the head of our network made a documentary about it.

[1:53:00] Jimi: But it's a really interesting documentary because it is kind of that idea of like all of the seasons to pick this was a really key one because the four shows that they talk about, I don't know if people have seen it, it's called Show Business, like the path to Broadway or something like that.

[1:53:20] Tommy: And it covers basically the life on Broadway of Wicked, Avenue Q, Carolina Change and Taboo.

[1:53:32] Jimi: Which are four very, very different shows that kind of had in their own individual ways equal amounts of promise. Wicked was your commercial surefire hit. Most money, it was going to be fine regardless. Avenue Q was these new guys who had this really kind of weird left field idea, but it was accessible as anything because it was just so good.

[1:54:06] Tommy: Then Carolina Change was the other side of it, like serious, not happy, really contemporary storytelling that people are still teething on today.

[1:54:22] Jimi: And then Taboo, which was super queer, jukebox fronted by Rosie O'Donnell. Man, what a wild time on Broadway.

[1:54:44] Tommy: Absolutely. It's kind of mad.

[1:54:48] Jimi: And then you also had The Boy From Oz, which they don't talk about. But that was also happening at that time.

[1:55:02] Tommy: So it's just a very, very interesting time.

[1:55:04] Jimi: And then also to think actually, Wicked didn't do that well. Didn't do great critically. Lost the Tony.

[1:55:12] Tommy: Didn't get the Tony, even though everyone said it was going to get the Tony.

[1:55:14] Jimi: I got in such a big fight with my other musical theatre nerd friend when we watched the Tonys at his senior year graduation party. And I had put on my bingo card that Avenue Q was going to win. And he was like, Wicked's going to win. And I was like, I think Avenue Q's going to win. And I was right.

[1:55:30] Tommy: Thus began my long career.

[1:55:32] Jimi: I would have said Wicked. There would be no doubts in my mind.

[1:55:38] Tommy: And I would have agreed with Ben Brantley.

[1:55:42] Jimi: Is it Ben Brantley or Michael Riddell?

[1:55:44] Tommy: I think it's Ben Brantley. I know one of them they feature lots and he loves it.

[1:55:50] Jimi: But he talks about how he said that Tonya Pinkins should have won for Caroline or Change.

[1:55:56] Tommy: But I said it went to Idina.

[1:55:58] Jimi: And was obviously only one of their three Tonys. I find that very politically interesting because I don't think she deserves it.

[1:56:06] Tommy: I think Tristan deserves it over Idina.

[1:56:10] Jimi: I think Tristan deserves it over Idina too. I absolutely agree.

[1:56:14] Tommy: I don't want to penalize that part to fuck.

[1:56:16] Jimi: I know Idina's performance very well. If you look at Wicked and what happened with it in that time you wouldn't say this is going to last forever. And yet, here we are.

[1:56:32] Tommy: I do think the other thing that is worth acknowledging and this actually leads into another fascinating fact that I've since learned. Do you know who the lead producer on Wicked was?

[1:56:46] Jimi: Mark Platt. They don't publish it a lot.

[1:56:51] Jimi: Or what's-his-Platt did, was a lute producer. Father of, well his name's John Platt.

[1:57:00] Tommy: Father of what's-his-Platt, who's a white male named Platt. Exactly. Oh no, it was Mark Platt, pardon me. John Platt was a...

[1:57:06] Jimi: Thank you! I want to talk about Universal Pictures.

[1:57:13] Tommy: Oh, I see. Well, Mark Platt worked for Universal Pictures. Got it. Universal Pictures, after Wicked was known as Universal Pictures Stage Productions, had been involved in some producing beforehand of stuff you've never heard of, save for maybe Best Little Horror House in Texas, which is interesting and I'd like to unpack before that. But after that, Wicked, Billy Elliot, bloody bloody Andrew Jackson, Bring It On, Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross, Mean Girls, they became a force to reckon with. And this is interesting nowadays in our...

[1:57:50] Jimi: Did you watch any or hear any of the news of the Disney conglomerate marketing funders call or whatever they had a couple days ago?

[1:57:59] Tommy: The investors presentation that I cried at openly, yes, yes. Where they said, we are going to reinvent everything again! And it's this bizarre, like disassociative thing of like, you really want to support these artists and, you know, large monopolizing corporations might be a force for good in the world.

[1:58:10] Jimi: It's really tricky. Isn't it really frustrating? It's not a discussion to have right now because I don't know where I stand yet. There's a lot. But nowadays, perhaps one of the one standouts that's not under the Disney umbrella is Universal Pictures.

[1:58:31] Tommy: Right, exactly. And in a world where we're, you know, maybe three quarters of a decade out from Lion King that literally cleaned up Broadway the street for the sake of its, you know, Disney starting to buy up as much of Broadway as possible. And then comes Universal Pictures with their surefire commercial hit that they know will be a surefire commercial hit in that very Disney way. But the thing they do that Disney didn't do well is, no one knows that Universal did Wicked.

[1:59:08] Jimi: Yeah. Which is a very clever marketing thing.

[1:59:12] Tommy: So are you meaning because it doesn't have that kind of stigma attached to it?

[1:59:14] Jimi: It doesn't feel like, oh, the big mouse has made this.

[1:59:16] Tommy: Like it feels like a homegrown.

[1:59:20] Jimi: Exactly. And there are productions on Broadway that Disney Theatrical doesn't put their names on that they try to like the whatever, not the recent, recent revivals of Little Shop, but I think the second recent one was very Disney sponsored, but you have to search real hard to figure that out. So they learned, but, you know, Wicked has the money for the marketing and has, you know, Universal has recording studios and people who do this.

[1:59:41] Tommy: Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I think like to, to give Universal a little bit of credit, it wasn't their idea. So Mark Platt originally had the rights to do a movie and I think he'd been working on it for two years and wasn't hitting on anything. And that classic apocryphal was about to give up when the phone rang and there was Stephen Schwartz.

[2:00:06] Jimi: So Stephen Schwartz separately had read the book and was like, this needs to be a musical who has the rights.

[2:00:11] Tommy: Oh, it's Universal picks up the phone is like, hi, this needs to be a musical. And they were like, interesting. Okay. And they went with it there.

[2:00:21] Jimi: Yeah. So in a way Wicked was the gift to Universal that allowed them to do Billy Elliot, you know what I mean? Onwards and upwards. But I don't think, yeah, I don't think there's a, no, is that the right way to phrase it? I don't think it's a coincidence.

[2:00:45] Tommy: Sure. But it is, it is this fucking catch 22 of like, Wicked is good because it has high production value.

[2:00:55] Jimi: Yes. It has high production value because it has money.

[2:01:03] Tommy: Yes. It has money because it has a big corporate sponsor.

[2:01:10] Jimi: Yes. I am uncomfortable with big corporate sponsors deciding my art. But when the art is good, why does that matter?

[2:01:21] Tommy: Yeah. That's fair. Because Billy Elliot, right. And because Wicked, like, you know what I mean? Like extremely good, high quality.

[2:01:30] Jimi: Yeah. Art. Yeah. You know, it's not, um, doling out the trash, but even I was gonna say like, like this, but that isn't true. Disney stuff is also really good, but like people don't, you know, and like I struggle, you know, maybe we will get into this conversation or maybe this will end up in last call, but like, it's the lowest last call ever. There's, there's Disney shit that I love. And there's Disney, there's independent Disney artists that I know on Twitter that I adore.

[2:02:01] Tommy: Right. And I'm really uncomfortable with Disney owning so much stuff because they own so much stuff.

[2:02:13] Jimi: I know. And it lets them manipulate particular messages in a way that is legitimately harmful to society.

[2:02:19] Tommy: It can be, but also it, I think they can also distribute messages that are really positive.

[2:02:29] Jimi: But, but I mean, as an easy example, how many times do you think a positive queer message was toned down in a Disney product for the sake of their general audience?

[2:02:43] Tommy: So I think historically, infinitesimal I think means really small.

[2:02:48] Jimi: Yeah. The other opposite.

[2:02:49] Tommy: Infinitely loads. Right. But, but I think we will see a change.

[2:02:57] Jimi: But would we, if Disney didn't have such broad reaching audience marketing, there wouldn't be forces that would have caused them to make those calls. If instead we had a more diversified, independent or codependent bevy of artistic creators and funders and patrons, then the things that needed to go as far or as hard as they wanted to could without the mouse having to worry about a joke that the Simpsons are making, which is where we live now.

[2:03:35] Tommy: Right. But that is utopia. That isn't realistic because investors go where the money is.

[2:03:43] Jimi: I know, but the money's just as simple as that.

[2:03:46] Tommy: And the money's just in Scrooge McDuck's vault right now. And that's the problem.

[2:03:48] Jimi: Well, that's it. That's the big, that's the thing. But, um, it, yeah, it's so, it is really challenging, but I would say, why are we talking about Disney?

[2:03:57] Tommy: I know it seems so universal. I know. This is why I like.

[2:03:59] Jimi: Right. Cause I'm a, I am a big Disney fan and I understand the, the, you know, monopolies aren't useful to anyone.

[2:04:04] Tommy: Um, but, uh, they seem to be getting more responsible with their storytelling.

[2:04:14] Jimi: Or is social justice just a new marketing avenue?

[2:04:22] Tommy: Perhaps. But I know. And what's the difference, right. At the end of the day, what is, what is the point of social justice? If not to make these changes.

[2:04:31] Jimi: Sure. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

[2:04:37] Tommy: Um, as long as they keep, as long as it stays that way, right. Do you know what I mean? As long as it's not a trend, which I don't think it is because it's kind of a Pandora's box thing of, well, when you make your first gay Pixar movie, right. Then you can make another one because you've already done one.

[2:04:51] Jimi: Right. Yeah. I mean, um, so yeah, of all of the monopolies of all of the conglomerates, I have a lot of faith and trust in Disney, um, that they'll do the right thing.

[2:05:05] Tommy: Uh, but I appreciate, yeah, they have a lot of stuff. Is it just cause you've drank the Kool-Aid?

[2:05:13] Jimi: Crafted Kool-Aid. Well, 100% I'm a deep Disney nut. Um, but also for reasons, like good legitimate reasons. Cause they make good art and they hire good artists. Cause they make really good stuff.

[2:05:27] Tommy: Yeah. Stephen Schwartz, mostly a Disney composer.

[2:05:36] Jimi: Anyway. Yeah. Sorry. How did we even, I don't even, I can't even work out how we started. Oh, just talking about stuff.

[2:05:40] Tommy: Yeah. Um, Wicked is still playing even after this five hour long conversation about Disney. It's still going.

[2:05:47] Jimi: It's still going and probably will continue. Um, like I see no, their, their like house sales and stuff are still really still selling out.

[2:06:01] Tommy: Yeah. Still selling out. It's incredible. It's really, really incredible. And do you know what else is interesting that I'm just, I'm having this thought in the moment for a musical that has played as long as it has, it has not needed to, far as I can tell offhand, you'd know better, needed to start to pull some of the Chicago or white press stunts. Like there's not a lot of stunt casting in Wicked.

[2:06:27] Jimi: No. There's like Broadway centric stunt casting, you know, RE Joel Gray and stuff, but like not, you know, there's not a lot of YouTubers in Wicked these days.

[2:06:38] Tommy: But it's because it's impossible to do because they need to be good vocalists. They need to be good actors. That in and of itself, my is, is twisting the dial more towards me being like, okay, challenging music can be okay in a musical.

[2:06:49] Jimi: Yes. Okay. Oh yeah. Of course. I forget you don't like that.

[2:06:56] Tommy: As a, I don't like, I get it, but in the, in the way that like I don't watch sports, like I don't really, I don't really care about the, you, there's ways to do the end of Defying Gravity that isn't so vocally challenging, that is still as dramatically inspiring in my own humble opinion.

[2:07:06] Jimi: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and they'll probably be in the MTI published version, right. In the same way that like when you get the rights to Hello Dolly, you get the Carol Channing key and then like the normal person key.

[2:07:21] Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But an argument on the other side would be challenging vocals keep prohibits done casting.

[2:07:34] Jimi: Yeah. I mean, the thing is, is it actually doesn't necessarily need to prohibit stunt casting because they'll just, well, we'll just take that down. We'll just edit it. Don't worry.

[2:07:44] Tommy: Um, and thankfully Wicked hasn't felt the need to do that. And the thing is, is like, um, what's incredible is they've put a lot of young, new, you know, grafting action into the limelight. And when you, when you play Elphaba, when you play Glinda, you have a fan base and you will become a name.

[2:08:04] Jimi: Yeah.

[2:08:09] Tommy: And I think that's a really good thing. I think that's fantastic.

[2:08:40] Jimi: Sure I meant well, well look at what well-meant it. All right enough, so be it, so be it then. Let all laws be agreed. I'm Wicked through and through since I cannot succeed.

[2:08:58] Tommy: Fiyero saving you. I promise no good deed will I attempt to do again, ever again.

[2:09:07] Jimi: No good deed will I do again.

[2:09:27] Tommy: My Segway plays music. Did you know that?

[2:09:30] Jimi: It's probably the sound of music.

[2:09:34] Tommy: How weird and outdated of you. Um, so I mean, we've talked about a lot about the fan culture because hi, my name is Jimmy. Um, and I'm a fan of the show, um, with a capital F. Uh, but I think, yeah, there's so, there's so much to kind of pull apart here because I think it's genuinely interesting to see where this sits in the fan world that we talk about quite a lot.

[2:10:04] Jimi: It does seem to be.

[2:10:08] Tommy: Is Wicked the first musical that had musical fans in the way that we contemporarily understand them today?

[2:10:15] Jimi: So I think the way we contemporarily understand today is internet fans.

[2:10:20] Tommy: Yeah.

[2:10:21] Jimi: Right. It's, it's the, it's the symbiosis of internet and musical theater. You can be a fan of the show having not yet seen it, nor ever having the potential to see it while also not being a specific fan of the art form as a whole.

[2:10:33] Tommy: Right.

[2:10:38] Jimi: You're not like a nerd. You're a fan.

[2:10:40] Tommy: Exactly. Because I think taking Millie, right, taking that example, this just happens. Um, if you lived in New York, you could easily be obsessed with Sutton Foster and Millie.

[2:10:51] Jimi: Yes.

[2:10:52] Tommy: Easily. Um, but if you watched the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade.

[2:10:57] Jimi: Yeah.

[2:10:58] Tommy: Right. You'd be like, that's brilliant, but it's not going to hook you so much that you're going to be like, I am going to become obsessed with this show.

[2:11:06] Jimi: Right.

[2:11:07] Tommy: Right. Yeah.

[2:11:08] Jimi: Um, because Wicked got the cast album out like that.

[2:11:13] Tommy: Right away. Yep.

[2:11:15] Jimi: Um, because their marketing was extremely good for even their out of town.

[2:11:20] Tommy: Yep.

[2:11:21] Jimi: Right. It already had a life.

[2:11:24] Tommy: Yeah.

[2:11:24] Jimi: Like a good life before it even hit Broadway.

[2:11:27] Jimi: Then you throw in a cult classic actor like Idina Menzel, because Rent is the other musical that had deeply voracious fans, do you know what I mean? But the thing about Rent is it was pre-internet.

[2:11:37] Tommy: Right, yeah. And was, I would say, a little less accessible to the masses. Rent, depending upon your political bent, let's call it, social bent, is a little inaccessible in ways that Wicked isn't.

[2:11:46] Jimi: Yes, fair. Fair, fair, fair. But I think, well, maybe it's like a nowadays you, I'm looking at that, because I think nowadays if Rent was released, well, I can't be arsed talking about the politics of Rent, but in theory, nowadays if Rent was released, people would be obsessed with it to the point of, you know, Hansoning it. Right?

[2:12:02] Tommy: Yes. Anyway, so going back to the start of the internet and the start of fan culture, because we're right there, Tommy.

[2:12:07] Jimi: Yeah, that was us. I feel so excited to talk about it because, you know, that is, this is our beginnings. The first time I ever saw Wicked was on fucking MySpace.

[2:12:17] Tommy: I know.

[2:12:18] Jimi: Yeah. It was on someone's MySpace wall. Yeah. Like being it, this was one of, it was not the first, but one of the earliest iTunes albums I was able to get.

[2:12:25] Tommy: Yes. Oh my God, do you remember? I used to buy them all on iTunes.

[2:12:29] Jimi: I know. Well, and like, it was a significant change in that, like, I didn't have to go to the library and rip the CD to get the CD, which I had to do with things like You're in Town two, three years earlier.

[2:12:37] Tommy: Yeah.

[2:12:38] Jimi: And I think that is one of the things that made it go like wildfire because the UK, do you know what I mean? I knew Wicked before it was in the UK.

[2:12:46] Tommy: Yeah. That was so rare.

[2:12:48] Jimi: Yeah. Because like at that time as well, I wasn't the musical theatre deep nerd that I am today. Wicked in many ways was one of the shows that came out of that. It wasn't the show. It was right. But, um, yeah, like it was still a big part of me getting involved in the discussions because everyone else knew about Wicked.

[2:13:07] Tommy: Yeah.

[2:13:08] Jimi: Wicked. I mean, unequivocally Wicked was the show for me as being already a burgeoning musical theatre nerd. This was my senior year of high school. I was working on writing a musical with a friend. It wasn't that I didn't know musicals, but it was.

[2:13:20] Tommy: Paperclips.

[2:13:21] Jimi: Paperclips. Something to do with paperclips. It's nothing to do with paperclips. This was a musical because it entered the zeitgeist. You could talk with people about and especially because like it sat down in Chicago pretty early.

[2:13:31] Tommy: Um, 2005 or six, maybe.

[2:13:34] Jimi: Yeah. That would make sense. People like everyone just went to go see it. Um, and so you could talk with people about it. Whereas like, no one wants to hear my opinions on title of show, right?

[2:13:43] Tommy: Right. Nobody gives a shit about that.

[2:13:45] Jimi: Um, yeah. Spelling bee. Who gives it? Who gives a toss? Right. Like if you're not talking about Wicked, then what's the point? Are you talking about Les Mis? That's the only other one I care about. You know what I mean?

[2:14:00] Tommy: Like that's the kind of thing.

[2:14:01] Jimi: I remember my first year of uni, I went in a Wicked themed pub crawl. Do you know what I mean? Like, what even is that?

[2:14:08] Tommy: Right. It is delightful.

[2:14:09] Jimi: I dressed up as the wizard.

[2:14:11] Tommy: I do think that's even more delightful that you dressed up as a wizard. I also do think it is a perfect storm. Not just that it's the internet age, but that it is this show in the internet age.

[2:14:20] Jimi: Yeah.

[2:14:21] Tommy: Because everyone has seen the MGM movie.

[2:14:24] Jimi: Yes. Everyone is culturally aware. Like who's in the Wizard of Oz? Dorothy, the Scarecrow, the Tin Man, and the Lion. Although I did have to pause for a second to put that on. Always forget Lion.

[2:14:34] Tommy: Yeah.

[2:14:35] Jimi: But like everyone can quote, even if they've never seen the movie, something from the Wizard of Oz, right? The MGM movie. And this show does such a good job and like legally of dancing around that movie because they don't have the rights to it. Different movie studio. But just not only referencing it, but like that's the whole point. That's the spot, the difference painting.

[2:14:54] Tommy: And so it becomes something that is exciting for people who don't know or like, or are interested in musicals, you know?

[2:15:01] Jimi: And like, I don't think there's a, there probably is. The internet is infinitely fractal, but like this show isn't riding on the coattails of the huge, the large Wizard of Oz fan base, right?

[2:15:12] Tommy: Yeah. It's not like all the ones that were on the message board, you know what I mean?

[2:15:15] Jimi: Like that's just not the case. They were wicked fans.

[2:15:18] Tommy: Yeah.

[2:15:19] Jimi: And yeah, I think it is, it's because this show, but also I think it's because the content of this show appealed to the others, right?

[2:15:27] Tommy: Yeah, sure.

[2:15:28] Jimi: And, and so the same, so really interesting. Have you ever seen the documentary Repeat Offenders?

[2:15:34] Tommy: I've not. It's on my list, but it's, it's pretty good. It's pretty good. A little bit sensationalist.

[2:15:41] Jimi: Sure. But some really nice stories. But Patty and Emily and Emily, uh, feature on it a fair bit.

[2:15:48] Tommy: Um, and it's by far the best thing in it is what I'll say.

[2:15:51] Jimi: Actually, no, there's, there's one woman who really likes Starlight Express and she's wonderful.

[2:15:56] Tommy: That's a choice.

[2:15:57] Jimi: She's German. So it makes sense, but no, it does. It honestly, it would maybe change your opinion, but it's not like, anyway, pat them over there. They're having a chat.

[2:16:06] Tommy: Um, and, uh, Emily, uh, basically just says this thing that, that kind of like just let, you know, we had just dropped that pen and I was like, yeah, of course. Sure. Yeah. Of course. And it made so much sense.

[2:16:18] Jimi: So basically she said that, um, one of the reasons why, um, fans get so voracious and protective, particularly when it comes to musical theater, that kind of gatekeeping thing that we've definitely talked about before that we're guilty of in a lot that we are guilty.

[2:16:31] Tommy: Yeah. Every time you can feel yourself slipping into it, it's, it's not good behavior, but it's very easy to fall into.

[2:16:37] Jimi: Um, she said it's because, um, musical theater fans are so often treated as the other for so long, um, in their lives that when they eventually get on the infield, when they become like a place where they can, you know, run free, um, they seize the opportunity to become the big name on campus, um, for the first time, because always they're the people who are outcasts know nothing of that when they can know the most about something for sure.

[2:17:05] Tommy: They'll let you know.

[2:17:06] Jimi: Absolutely. Early Hamilton Tumblr discourse, like look no further.

[2:17:10] Tommy: Right. Exactly. Contemporary Hamilton, Disney plus internet discourse. You can see it rear its ugly head again.

[2:17:16] Jimi: Absolutely. Absolutely. Like it is, it's such a, to me, it's the thing that I actually, I, I dislike the most about our community is the gatekeeping and is the, uh, yeah, just the, the cruelness sometimes because people don't know a specific thing.

[2:17:32] Tommy: And because I'm to me, I'm like, if people are learning about musical theater, if they're showing an interest beyond passively listening to something, good God, that's exciting. And you want to nurture that.

[2:17:43] Jimi: You want to be like, okay, I mean, we've got you rewind, rewind your podcatcher. I was guilty of this and caught myself in the moment at the very beginning of this very podcast. When I said, if you've been listening to this podcast for this long and haven't yet heard of wicked.

[2:18:00] Tommy: Right. There you go.

[2:18:01] Jimi: Yeah. Tommy recalculates and thinks, yeah, I'm so excited to share this with you for the first time, but that was not my initial thought. Right. My initial thought was going to be like, where are you? How did you get it?

[2:18:10] Tommy: Right. Some gatekeepery bullshit.

[2:18:12] Jimi: That's it. That's it. And we need to get so much better at, at, at not doing that because like I get a lot of my friends enjoy musical theater.

[2:18:20] Tommy: Right.

[2:18:21] Jimi: Some of them are a couple are nerds. And the majority like wicked. Right. I mean, like the majority are like, yeah, I love wicked.

[2:18:28] Tommy: Yeah.

[2:18:29] Jimi: And we need to get so much better at being like, yeah, but do you not know this?

[2:18:33] Tommy: Right.

[2:18:34] Jimi: Have you not heard of this? Right. We need to get so much better at going away from that because no, they don't know that. Of course they don't know what title of show is.

[2:18:43] Tommy: Right. Why would they?

[2:18:44] Jimi: Yeah. Like they don't have a, they don't have a way in.

[2:18:47] Tommy: Exactly.

[2:18:48] Jimi: Yeah. So why not be like, oh my God, I love wicked. Well, actually, um, Kristin Chenoweth, who is in that show, who's also in this musical, You're a Good Man, Child of the Bride, she's also in a musical called A New Brain. You know what I mean?

[2:19:02] Tommy: Like, that's how you lead people into the fire.

[2:19:05] Jimi: You'd love her in this recording of Candide. It's kind of like an opera. It's slow at points, but it's great. How good is this song? You know what I mean? Watch this video. And then it's like, oh, that is fantastic. Oh my God. I'm going to listen to that.

[2:19:17] Tommy: And then people organically find these little roots and utopia.

[2:19:21] Jimi: It's that. I mean, there's an XKCD comic for everything, but it's that XKCD comic that's like, I'm so excited to introduce people to new things.

[2:19:29] Tommy: Yeah.

[2:19:30] Jimi: You know, cause that never happens. It doesn't. And it's, that's, I think that like Patty and Emily really hit on a really good point there. And it's something I think we all need to get a lot better at because it's so, and it is, it's true because we get so excited because we're like, hang on, I know so much and I can, and your instinct is to put people down.

[2:19:51] Tommy: Right.

[2:19:52] Jimi: Because you're like, I am at the top. Oh my God. I know so much. You don't even know James Corden is doing an offensive portrayal in the prom.

[2:20:01] Tommy: Right. Right. Right. Right.

[2:20:02] Jimi: Cause I've actually had some really difficult, uh, interactions with some of my friends about this. So because we host a musical theater podcast, um, everyone thinks I know everything about musical theater.

[2:20:12] Tommy: We don't know.

[2:20:13] Jimi: I absolutely don't know everything about musical theater. Like many of our listeners will attest to that as they do on a biweekly basis.

[2:20:20] Tommy: Absolutely.

[2:20:21] Jimi: Um, and guess what? I'm fine with that. It's great because there's too much responsibility at the top if you have to, but you feel a lot of pressure.

[2:20:30] Tommy: So I was at a musical theater quiz, um, which was full of musical theater fans. A lot of people there, I would say no more than me musical theater, but because I do this podcast, everyone was like, well, obviously Jimmy's going to win.

[2:20:41] Tommy: Obviously.

[2:20:42] Jimi: And people like, can I be on your team? I'm like, don't like, what are you doing? So when I inevitably didn't win, people were screaming at me.

[2:20:51] Tommy: Like, I can't believe you didn't win. I can't believe I beat you. Oh my God. This is amazing. You're not, I can't believe it. I thought you would have won.

[2:20:58] Jimi: And I'm like, this is disgusting behavior. And I got really angry. I got really angry at my friends because I was like, this is how do you think this makes me feel? You're basically just be like, you're fucking stupid. You do a podcast of this and you didn't win this.

[2:21:10] Tommy: Cause I'm like, yeah, because guess what? I don't know everything.

[2:21:14] Jimi: No. Right. And it is that exact same kind of gatekeeping mentality of like, Oh my God, I know more than you. I'm going to put you right down. Not at all.

[2:21:23] Tommy: Right.

[2:21:24] Jimi: We need to share. Let me bring you in. That's such a rant. I'm so sorry.

[2:21:29] Tommy: I think it is so important. And I know and try to check myself and I'm more and less successful at it in this kind of gatekeeping. We've talked about it before. There's a persona that I've cultured on my YouTube channel, especially.

[2:21:41] Jimi: And I'm trying to get away from on this podcast, but still exists and is a thing that also some people come to look for that I am kind of a curmudgeon about shows and we'll have dissenting and disliking kind of opinions.

[2:21:53] Tommy: And that's not the best choice.

[2:21:54] Jimi: It's not. And it's hard to find the balance. It's why we always catch ourselves whenever we describe the show as being like anything near what a theater critic would be, because that's not what we want to be about the show.

[2:22:06] Tommy: Because and like, honestly, I think critics are one of the most poisonous part of this industry because they do strike that kind of gate. They're literally their job is to be the gatekeeper.

[2:22:16] Jimi: Right. Should you see this show? Let me tell you whether I'll put the drawbridge down or not.

[2:22:21] Tommy: Absolutely. What fucking bullshit.

[2:22:23] Jimi: Yeah. How dare you assume you know that much. And also, for example, like seeing that show business documentary, the critics feature quite a lot in it.

[2:22:31] Tommy: And they keep going back to this like kind of roundtable they're at where they're having this really smarmy meal together.

[2:22:36] Jimi: It's not it's not it doesn't make you like critics watching them because they're really up their own arse.

[2:22:41] Tommy: But one of them.

[2:22:42] Jimi: Oh, my God. That was a fun noise.

[2:22:44] Tommy: It's not like Scott even was that.

[2:22:46] Jimi: What? I don't know. I heard it, too.

[2:22:49] Tommy: I heard it, so it can't be Scott.

[2:22:51] Jimi: That's in your ears.

[2:22:52] Tommy: That might happen in real life.

[2:22:54] Jimi: Is your phone somewhere?

[2:22:56] Tommy: I mean, yes, but it doesn't make that noise.

[2:22:59] Jimi: But that wasn't in my.

[2:23:01] Tommy: No, I heard it.

[2:23:02] Jimi: What?

[2:23:03] Tommy: Something like that. It sounded like the Skype messaging noise.

[2:23:06] Jimi: It did. But why wasn't it?

[2:23:08] Tommy: I don't know.

[2:23:09] Jimi: Why did it come at my laptop?

[2:23:11] Tommy: I don't know.

[2:23:12] Jimi: Oh, my God. I'm very good.

[2:23:14] Tommy: Anyway,

[2:23:15] Jimi: I don't like that at all.

[2:23:17] Tommy: Anyway, so I can't remember where I got to.

[2:23:20] Jimi: Quite smarmy roundtable.

[2:23:22] Tommy: Yeah, one of them was like, actually, do you know what? When I went back to see Taboo again, I actually quite liked it.

[2:26:04] Jimi: I made a mistake in what I said. I'm like, yeah, but you're not going to post a retraction, are you? The thing's already posted its closing notice, and here's you being like, you made a snap decision and doomed a show. That's one of my, and it is one of my most painful videos. I don't think I've ever rewatched it, but I am very appreciative that I made it, is Sondheim September, and I remade a discussion of Sunday in the Park with George.

[2:26:29] Tommy: I remember that.

[2:26:31] Jimi: Because I did a watch along, and was super critical and didn't like the show. And then I think at your recommendation, actually, I watched a boot of the British girl.

[2:26:37] Tommy: The London, yeah, Jaina Russell.

[2:26:42] Jimi: And it was, and it hit me different. And, like, immediately, I think I watched it like on my phone sitting on my bed, and like, in minutes was like, I'm filming this follow-up about how I feel. And like, you know, it's unscripted. It's not my best work. And I have not rewatched it. I don't like rewatching myself to begin with. But it will forever live on my YouTube channel, because that's important.

[2:27:12] Tommy: Exactly.

[2:27:15] Jimi: To know that you can change your mind, to know that all of this is subjective. There are no rules as much as we like, categorize and talk about patterns and try and poke these things out. And that's fun. And whatever, it's art, like you can do anything.

[2:27:30] Tommy: Right. Right. But I think, I think that's a really good point, because I don't think enough people change their mind.

[2:27:36] Jimi: Right.

[2:27:38] Tommy: I remember, right, back when I was becoming a musical theatre fan and developing these gatekeepy mentalities, I remember I used to be like, Spring Awakening is the worst thing that's ever happened to musical theatre. Bullshit. I barely, I think I'd listened to the cast recording once loosely. And I made that decision because it had, because I was like, it's overtly sexual. It's just like, to me, I was like, it's just trying to be controversial for the sake of being controversial. Right. Not understanding that that actually isn't the case at all. And it's really deeply artistic. Like, and I just made that thing. And because I just wanted to sound, you know, I wanted to sound up my own art.

[2:28:23] Jimi: Well, it's a, it's an easier decision. Like, I think, you know, we, it made it into Last Call, but I think, but Jimmy and I talked a bit about the prom movie that has come out that we haven't watched yet. But also there's lots of hot takes on the internet about how James Corden kind of does, perhaps, an offensive gay, interpretation of a gay character.

[2:28:39] Tommy: Yep.

[2:28:41] Jimi: Which, if you ask my gut right now, I'm pretty confident that thing exists in this movie. And it's a thing I don't like. And a thing that would make me really uncomfortable even supporting watching the movie. I will probably watch it at some point. And there are parts of it that I'm probably really going to like. And some of the queer lesbian representation in it that I think are going to be really important. And some of the Ryan Murphy-isms that I'm going to hate. Like, there's, you know, I'm, I hear there's some like fat phobic shit in there. And, you know, I'm always upset when they don't cast Broadway stars in the movies. Like there's all sorts of things. And it is that, it's, you know, it's Matt Smith with Vincent Van Gogh at the art exhibit. Like there's piles of good things and piles of bad things, but they don't disbalance each other.

[2:29:26] Tommy: Yeah.

[2:29:27] Jimi: Both of these things can exist at the same time. And you're right. There's a lot of gatekeeping-y discourse as shows like break out of the bubble of musical theater and enter just pop culture, like Wicked did. Like you can hear, you can hear remixes of Wicked songs playing on speakers at Target still to this day.

[2:29:47] Tommy: Yeah.

[2:29:50] Jimi: Right. That doesn't happen with, like what, Hamilton, maybe. That's probably about it.

[2:29:57] Tommy: Well, it's not happened yet with Hamilton. You know what I mean?

[2:29:59] Jimi: I've heard, I've heard Hamilton at a Starbucks. I've heard some of the Hamilton mixtape at a Starbucks. Yeah. Which is really cool.

[2:30:04] Tommy: Oh, the mixtape.

[2:30:05] Jimi: Yeah. But, and that's what you're hearing when you hear Wicked too.

[2:30:08] Tommy: Yes. Okay. I know what you mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2:30:10] Jimi: But that doesn't, that doesn't happen with the art form we love. And it's easy to fall into the trap of like, well, why doesn't it? You know, why am I not hearing the prom when I go, when I'm at the McDonald's drive-thru? And, you know, it is worth it to remind yourself to like resist those urges and be welcoming when someone enters the dark side.

[2:30:38] Tommy: That's it. That's it. I think it's just like have welcoming at the forefront. Don't have, don't try and be protective. Don't try and just demonstrate how much you know. That's not what it's about. It's find out how much they know.

[2:30:55] Jimi: Yeah. I love

[2:30:58] Tommy: And then support them.

[2:31:03] Jimi: The teacher trick I've learned, very useful conversation starter, or to get you out of a you don't know how to respond. What did you like about it?

[2:31:08] Tommy: Yes.

[2:31:10] Jimi: What did you like about it?

[2:31:14] Tommy: Yeah.

[2:31:14] Jimi: Oh, I love Wicked. Yeah. What do you like about it? Figure it out. Dive in deeper with the person.

[2:31:18] Tommy: Exactly. It just leads to much better discourse.

[2:31:22] Jimi: Yeah.

[2:31:26] Tommy: Hmm. Changing lives, Tommy. We're changing lives.

[2:31:30] Jimi: Yeah. Okay.

[2:31:33] Tommy: For the better.

[2:31:37] Jimi: Yeah. Uh-huh.

[2:31:37] Tommy: Because they knew us, they have been changed for good.

[2:31:44] Jimi: I briefly, this will be divulging too much, but that's all right. In between teaching jobs that I liked, I took a teaching job at a school that I was not so thrilled about that needed someone to teach theater, but they mostly needed someone to teach choir. I'm not a choir teacher. I took three years of piano in junior high and was in choir a couple times. I taught four sections of choir and one section of theater. Choir enrollment went from 23 to five by the end of the year.

[2:32:15] Tommy: Oh, God.

[2:32:18] Jimi: And I found a new job. And like, adored my students, loved them to death. I was a bad teacher for them. Not like a lazy teacher, just like incompetent.

[2:32:25] Tommy: Right. But they shouldn't have recruited you into that position.

[2:32:28] Jimi: Exactly. Also, it was like, the only reason choir and theater existed at the school is because they were like, if you didn't get into honors math, then you took an art. And the arts they built was like, so it was like people who didn't want to be in choir.

[2:32:42] Tommy: Yeah.

[2:32:44] Jimi: Yeah. Very problematic. But the like six kids that stuck it out with me till the end of the year, we were recruited to sing a song at graduation. And I picked, for good, Great Graduation Song.

[2:33:02] Tommy: Fantastic.

[2:33:04] Jimi: A great backing track sold by whatever music publisher we had.

[2:33:08] Tommy: Yes. I know it well.

[2:33:12] Jimi: And I knew the song very well. And it was two parts, S.A. and T.B. And there was not a dry eye in the house. Well, in the gymatorium.

[2:33:22] Tommy: Still a house.

[2:33:26] Jimi: Still a house. Biggest successes. And my favorite part was, after I conducted the song at graduation, I left the rest of the ceremony because I needed to make it to a job interview for another job. I didn't watch the rest of the graduation.

[2:33:43] Tommy: That's perfect. And then is that the job you're in now?

[2:33:47] Jimi: That's the job I'm in now, yeah.

[2:33:53] Tommy: Well, thank goodness.

[2:33:56] Jimi: Thank goodness.

[2:33:56] Tommy: Good, I'm glad you think that.

[2:34:00] Jimi: We'll have a celebration the Glinda way. Thank goodness.

[2:34:04] Tommy: Welcome to my quarantine one-man performance of Wicked.

[2:34:14] Jimi: So, I think it was Megan, it might have been Kendra again, but I think it was Megan who does a really good, like, yodel-y, I can't remember the correct term, but like a little yodel-y flip. And thank goodness. Great. Again, I'll put it in the show notes.

[2:36:07] ♪ Musical number: "For Good" — performed by Jimi and Tommy ♪

[2:36:11] Tommy: Tommy, that was wicked.

[2:36:11] Jimi: That was wicked. Jimmy, we didn't spend a lot of time talking about the MGM film, but you know a realization I had, I think spurred on by a tweet recently?

[2:36:22] Tommy: Right.

[2:36:23] Jimi: In the movie.

[2:36:24] Tommy: Yeah.

[2:36:25] Jimi: Mrs. Gulch, right?

[2:36:30] Tommy: She's mad at Dorothy. Do you remember why?

[2:36:34] Jimi: Because she owns a dog?

[2:36:35] Tommy: Because Toto bit her, allegedly.

[2:36:40] Jimi: And she says, I'm all but lame from the bite on my leg. I've had such a terrible bite on my leg from your daughter's dog.

[2:36:52] Tommy: What is Miss Gulch known for?

[2:36:56] Jimi: Cycling.

[2:36:56] Tommy: Riding her bike!

[2:36:58] Jimi: Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point.

[2:37:01] Tommy: And that is why Auntie Anne was just like, I'm having none of it. Because she knows. She's smart.

[2:37:08] Jimi: The movie could have ended right there. She'd be like, you rode your bike here, get out of here. There's a tornado coming.

[2:37:12] Tommy: Exactly.

[2:37:13] Jimi: Yeah. And then she can ride a f***ing bike in a tornado.

[2:37:18] Tommy: That's true.

[2:37:20] Jimi: She's fine.

[2:37:21] Tommy: That's my favorite X Games competition.

[2:37:24] Jimi: Yeah?

[2:37:25] Tommy: Tornado BMXing.

[2:37:26] Jimi: I'm in X Games mode. That's a TikTok reference, I think.

[2:37:32] Tommy: Do you want a Taskmaster reference? What's fun? BMXing!

[2:37:38] Jimi: That's great. Tommy, I'm so happy you're watching it. Anyway, do you want to know what we're going to do next?

[2:37:44] Tommy: I do, but will you tell me in the form of a quiz question?

[2:37:48] Jimi: Oh, fine, I guess. Do something a bit different. Hey, a musical adaptation of this. Musical adaptation of this holiday film is, as far as we can tell, Jay Leno's only foray into musical theater. Jay Leno.

[2:38:06] Tommy: What's the deal? Have you seen these musical theater? This is out there. I watched one the other night. I'll tell you all. Anyway, if you want to get in...

[2:38:13] Jimi: Did you like my Jay Leno impression?

[2:38:14] Tommy: That was actually quite good. That was very, like, talk show host.

[2:38:18] Jimi: Thank you.

[2:38:20] Tommy: If you want to get in touch with us, our show Twitter and Instagram is jimandtomic.

[2:38:26] Jimi: Or drop us an email on our website at jimandtomic.com. I'm not, again, I'm not going to keep that up.

[2:38:34] Tommy: While you're there, you can check out our Patreon.

[2:38:38] Jimi: Do you know the reference I'm doing from Parks and Rec?

[2:38:39] Tommy: You sound like Vincent Price.

[2:38:43] Jimi: Who's that?

[2:38:44] Tommy: He's Vincent Price. You would recognize his voice immediately. He has the spookiest voice on television. It's a little lower, too. But I'm here to spook and scare you.

[2:38:57] Jimi: Okay, that wasn't what I was going for. I was going for a Parks and Rec reference, but it's fine. Anyway, hey, when you're on our website, jimandtomic.com, please check out our Patreon if you would like to financially support the show and get access to our extra podcast, video podcast that we like to call Last Call.

[2:39:16] Tommy: You get to see our faces.

[2:39:18] Jimi: You get to see our faces. This time it's a bumper edition.

[2:39:21] Tommy: It's like seven hours long.

[2:39:24] Jimi: Yeah, seven hours long. Yeah, and we just want to say a big, big thank you, as ever, to our current patrons, who we love dearly.

[2:39:34] Tommy: We adore you. I'm making a heart shape with my fingers.

[2:39:37] Jimi: Me too. You can see that on Last Call.

[2:39:40] Tommy: Most of all, it helps us when you tell your friends about our show. People only find it really, really, really, really only find our show when other people tell them about it. So thank you to all of you who do that and do it.

[2:39:54] Jimi: Indeed. Thank you very much. And hey, Tommy.

[2:39:57] Tommy: Uh-huh. Cheers.

[2:39:59] Jimi: Cheers.

[2:40:17] Jimi: There's this really like big paragraph about her pubic hair. I'm not even kidding.

[2:40:23] Tommy: Why didn't they put that in the musical?

[2:40:25] Jimi: Yeah, I know. It'd be a great number.

[2:40:30] Tommy: What rhymes with pubic?

[2:40:32] Jimi: Um, loop-ick. I don't know. Like, someone who doesn't like loop? I don't know.