This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Nik Walker: Hey Alex.

[0:01] Alex Smolowe: Hello, Professor. You know, I was having a pretty good day today.

[0:07] Nik Walker: Uh-huh.

[0:07] Alex Smolowe: Taught a class. I've got some great students. And then I checked Twitter.

[0:14] Nik Walker: And uh, the goddamn rock and his family had or have COVID.

[0:19] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, I think they've gotten better. They've recovered from it.

[0:22] Nik Walker: They've recovered from it. This uh, is that you're just upset about this?

[0:27] Alex Smolowe: That the, I mean, obviously the rock's gonna beat COVID. I mean, the rock can be whatever he wants. He literally can beat me, he can beat you, he can certainly beat COVID.

[0:37] Nik Walker: Um, it's just I would say it's the relentlessness of like sh-shitty, shitty news. Thank God that he has recovered. Uh, you know, so much shitty news and a warning to everybody just because everyone's getting really, really bored of having to wear the mask and stay inside, it doesn't mean that everything is going away. You know, you gotta really maintain boundaries because people's boundaries are slipping.

[1:03] Alex Smolowe: They are slipping, but you know, there's one silver lining that I will say comes out of the rock.

[1:08] Nik Walker: What is this, Professor?

[1:10] Alex Smolowe: I'm gonna send the rock to kick your ass. Your candy ass if you call me Professor one more time.

[1:19] Nik Walker: You put the dumb in Professor Dumbledore.

[1:23] Alex Smolowe: You goddamn Jabroni!

[1:25] Nik Walker: Little Justin.

[1:28] Alex Smolowe: Little Justin.

[1:31] Nik Walker: Little Justin.

[1:35] Alex Smolowe: Fuck yeah.

[1:36] Nik Walker: That's the only one I got. And I dropped it. It's done now. It doesn't matter what's your name.

[1:47] Nik Walker: Oh, ladies and gentlemen, welcome, welcome, welcome to Poor the Rock.

[1:51] Alex Smolowe: Poor the reports.

[1:52] Nik Walker: It's a poor The Rock Johnson's Little Justice.

[1:55] Alex Smolowe: Dwayne the Rock Johnson produces our show now.

[1:58] Nik Walker: Uh no, it's a little justice. We're here. Um, you know, it's so funny. We uh, this is actually gonna be a little different of an episode. We're we're uh, we're not necessarily doing what we normally do where we pick a theme and I mean we are. We we are picking a theme and I guess technically there's a theme, but it's yeah.

[2:15] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, but we wanted to take a second, you know, in the midst of all that's happening in the world, uh we recently lost uh someone who was integral to the film uh industry, the entertainment industry, Chadwick Boseman, and um we wanted to do an episode to just sit with that and process that and uh and deal with that.

[2:35] Nik Walker: Because it is uh, you know, the uh it's it's this crazy freaking time where it's like the first thing that comes to mind is like, oh my god, was it COVID? Um it was not COVID in this case, it was it was colon cancer, which is crazy because he was so young. It's it's just a really it's a huge loss. It's a huge loss. And so we wanted to take a moment to celebrate this man, uh, Chadwick Boseman.

[3:00] Alex Smolowe: It's an interesting kind of um uh thing to look at socially, because obviously there's there's so much going on in the world, every day is a new hard conversation to have. Uh, and when something left field like this, you know, it comes out of nowhere. Uh, you know, the initial reaction is everybody posting and everybody, you know, uh getting it's kind of like a caught off guard. Like on social media, when you get caught off guard by something or when there's a sudden new topic of discussion, everything gets flooded.

[3:31] Nik Walker: And I think you find out in in the days afterward, after all the initial, you know, everyone grabs kind of the same photos and they make their remarks, and not that it's a bad thing, it's a it's a great thing. It's an amazing thing that everybody can collectively, you know, voice their things. But then as more information is delivered and more stories are told and more, you know, all of these things, you get this broadening sense of what it actually means, like what actually happened and what it actually means.

[3:58] Alex Smolowe: And it's it's so interesting to follow uh you know, to or to find out that it was 2016 that he was diagnosed with colon cancer.

[4:09] Nik Walker: Yep.

[4:10] Alex Smolowe: Uh and that was that was at the beginning of his career. This was before, you know, you think, oh, well, Black Panther was a while ago, so it probably happened, you know, after that and all that. But no, this was like before anybody even knew who this guy was.

[4:21] Nik Walker: And not that, and not that I mean, the thing, you know, the thing that's cut things crazy about Chadwick is when you start digging into his filmography and his work. I mean, this this guy's been working for for 20 years. You know, I mean, he it's you know, yeah, we we recently learned about him in in film, but he's been, you know, he was back um doing All My Children.

[4:42] Alex Smolowe: Um really that and this is so this is what's crazy. He was Reggie Montgomery in All My Children, uh, but he he was uh fired for voicing uh concerns about racist stereotypes in the script, and his role was recast with Michael B. Jordan.

[5:01] Nik Walker: Get out of here.

[5:02] Alex Smolowe: Not even joking, not even joking. And um, yeah, from there, I mean, and also I mean, he's not, and I think one of the cool things too is this is not just a film and television person, this is uh uh a playwright. This is this is a guy, so he was uh writing plays for a long, long time, got awards for his plays. He also was in the lab of Holler If You Hear Me, with which if you don't know is the uh is the Tupac Shakur musical that was that came out a while back.

[5:30] Nik Walker: But you know, he really he really has had this like truly amazing career in a very short time. So we just yeah, we just want to take a moment to to just talk about it. What let me ask you this, Alex, what what is it about celebrity deaths?

[5:46] Alex Smolowe: Like or not, you know, yeah, celebrity deaths. What is it that do you you think hits us so hard about these?

[5:54] Nik Walker: I mean it it's it's kind of com the common talking point, I think. You know, film and TV give everybody and and and celebrity culture in general, music and sports and everything. There's a common tongue in it, right? When something popular comes out, uh I can go to anybody in the country right now and talk to them about Tiger King, right? Or about a famous actor, about a famous musician.

[6:21] Alex Smolowe: Um it it provides this kind of uh you know focus points culturally for everybody to kind of share together, and I think it can get warped for sure. You know, the the celebrity worship gets out of hand, but I think that's only because uh there are so few things um based on people's, you know, appreciation and enjoyment, things that make people happy, you know. Nope nobody's getting revved up over politicians, nobody's getting revved up over, you know, famous people who are not you know involved in in something that that makes people happy.

[6:53] Nik Walker: You know, i the same thing that you know that happened with Kobe and and pretty much every celebrity death in the modern age, uh is is when it happens, it's it's a shock because it's kind of like everybody knows that person, you know, even though nobody knows them personally, everybody feels like they're connected in some way to that presence, and and it's kind of an ongoing, like you just assume it's gonna be there, and especially when someone dies young, you just you're it get you get so caught off guard by the suddenness of it.

[7:24] Alex Smolowe: The the suddenness of it and the fact that I also think about, especially for people who are photographed or filmed for a living, we have such a distinct picture of who they are. You know, one of the things that came up prior to his death was you know, he was going through a lot of weight loss and weight gain, and you know, this we knew we no no he didn't nope none of us knew he was sick. So people were commenting on that, like, ooh, Chadwick looking skinny, and they were you know, everybody was kind of making fun of him before it before people knew that he was really sick.

[7:56] Nik Walker: And that I think I think being someone for whom you are in the public eye is just like a lot of things. And I think there's an example there's an expectation of vulnerability that that doesn't exist, right? There's an expectation from the public that you do actually know what's going on. You want you want to think that you know uh, you know, when George Clooney goes home at night what he's like and what his relationships are like and what a quiet conversation with this person would be like.

[8:13] Alex Smolowe: You want to think that that you have an idea because you've painted a picture of this person. I think the hard truth is that in almost every single case, I can't think of one celebrity uh where this wouldn't be the case. Um not that they're completely different people when the cameras are off and Twitter is down, but they are different people. They are someone personal. They keep a personal boundary, whether that's a thin boundary or a thick one.

[8:52] Nik Walker: Um, and the information they choose they share, they choose to share. You know, they have teams of people, and and it you know, it it proves it the fact that that uh you know Mr. Boseman kept his his illness secret from everybody right up until the end, which which is astounding to think that that's possible.

[9:11] Alex Smolowe: And then you realize, oh yeah, no, these are these are choices that they can make as as people. And that's and that's one thing that I think people really need to get a bigger a stronger appreciation for is the fact that um you know this is at a certain point, you know, when you have a certain amount of notoriety, um, social media in this day and age, that's your job. That is literally going to work.

[9:35] Nik Walker: That is posting and doing certain things is part of your job because your job is your brand, and so you have to keep a brand alive.

[9:43] Alex Smolowe: But who you are uh, you know, on social media and who you choose to be uh in real life and in your actual life can be vastly different people. You know, I I was laughing uh with uh Sasha today because we were talking about there was a uh scene uh she did the the musical version of Rocky, and there was a scene where uh they filmed uh the guy, my our friend Terrence, who played Apollo Creed, and her uh as one of his ring girls getting off a plane uh like as footage of them, like, you know, this is like the big challenger, Apollo Creed, and they like rented out this private jet and filmed this thing.

[10:22] Nik Walker: And you realize that like this was you know, this was really before like Instagram was like a huge thing.

[10:28] Alex Smolowe: That's actually a pretty big business is renting yeah, real celebrities renting out private jets for photo shoots.

[10:35] Nik Walker: For photo, I and I had no idea that that's like a thing that people do, that you rent out a freaking are you kidding me?

[10:43] Alex Smolowe: Oh yeah. Because then you pose it's like people posing in front of Lamborghinis and stuff in the 90s. Like it it you give this idea that you're living this luxurious lifestyle, right? If people think that you're on a plane to go, and it's literally lying. It's literally people going on a plane to give off the impression to people that they have have purchased time on this plane to fly somewhere, that they've chartered it themselves and that they live an opulent, luxurious lifestyle.

[11:09] Nik Walker: These are the extents that people are willing to go through, and like it's pretty easy to see through the falseness of it all if you just bring yourself back down to earth.

[11:17] Alex Smolowe: But people uh you you have to actually consciously do that. And it's so easy to just absorb yourself in social media and think that everything that's going on is is the reality and that you're getting all the information um and you're kind of part of it.

[11:31] Nik Walker: Exactly.

[11:31] Alex Smolowe: It's um and it's which is actually interesting because if you go through Chadwick's uh his Instagram page, um you see I mean there's a way to do it where you are being a genuine person.

[11:44] Nik Walker: Um and he this this just seemed like a very genuine person. There's nothing. I mean, everything I've seen about him, and you can kind of tell and honestly, honestly, the rock seems kind of like the same person, you know, in in between you know, clips of people drinking his tequila, which seems to be his entire social media strategy these days.

[12:05] Alex Smolowe: Yeah.

[12:05] Nik Walker: Um but you you get you get the sense that that he uh is is a genuine feeling, you know, charismatic person, uh in in uh on and off the stage, you know, in and out of the spotlight. And I got I got that with Chadwick on his social media and in interview clips and in things in the news that he had done, you know, gone to the hospitals and visited and everything about him made it seem and the fact that he's producing creatively on the side also, right?

[12:35] Nik Walker: That he's very involved in the craft and he's very involved with his family. You just you got this sense that he's he was just a good fucking person. And that that counts for something that counts for well counts for a lot of something.

[12:47] Alex Smolowe: It does.

[12:48] Nik Walker: It does. And I think that when you do it with grace also, you know, the feeling that it's not being forced, it's not for show, it's not being put up like, hey, like everyone, I hope everybody thinks that I'm a good person because I did XYZ, which a lot of people do. Using opportunities, which, you know, again, is it's not a bad thing, but it's a little false in the Hollywood sense. And just nothing I've seen about this man gave off that sense that it was anything but completely genuine. And I will say the, you know, he, um, in his genuineness, uh, you know, I just, uh, genuinity? Genuine, genuine, genuine, genuine, genuine, genuine, genuine nudity.

[13:32] Alex Smolowe: Genuine nudity.

[13:34] Nik Walker: In his genuine nudity, which you know, genuine nude. He's a genuine nudist. Um, no, I can't I can't overstate the impact that he had on people of color and on the black community. I can't I cannot overstate that.

[13:48] Alex Smolowe: Well, yeah, I mean talk talk a little bit about that because obviously I had a different experience when Black Panther came out than I think an entire, you know, portion of our culture did. Um so what because you were you were on tour at that point, and yeah, was that one of the films that you booked out of theater for and didn't want the whole nine months?

[14:04] Nik Walker: I went the whole nine. Sarah was there we talked about that. We dressed in Dashikis and uh I'll talk, I'll say that uh here's uh you know, this is and I said a little bit of this earlier today. Um here's the truth of it, man. You grow up, and uh as a young black, especially as a young black man, uh you were expected to play sports. That's like a thing. Um there's like a real social pressure that I felt to play sports. Uh trick question, uh not trick question, but but uh yeah, it's a trick, it's a trap, really, is what I'm saying, because I'm not good at sports. I'm terrible at them. Uh and I especially that young, I had I did not have a lot of coordination. Um so these are.

[14:49] Alex Smolowe: Were you big as a kid?

[14:51] Nik Walker: No. No, I was small. I was uh when I was in seventh, eighth grade is when I think you're a big guy now. Yeah, when I was in seventh eighth grade is when I really sprouted up. And that that so that there was a lot of basketball demand, and I tried. I tried. I just wasn't I can't see it. I did I mean I did it, like I was I was I played, I was starting center, and like I did it, and but I was I'm sure I was terrible. I just uh it's just not me. Um where I found my sauce was these stories were were these these movies and these these comics, and and I think about the you know, I was obsessed with Batman and Robin and Batman Forever when when those movies came out, like the the like like you know, the the Tim Burton ones were like a little I never quite got into those, but I was obsessed with Batman Forever. But like truly, like seal in front of the Bat Light singing Kiss by a Rose is just my jam, you know.

[15:47] Alex Smolowe: Amazing.

[15:48] Nik Walker: Uh oh, I remember. I saw it, I saw it at the drive in. It was probably the last like drive-in movie I ever saw.

[15:55] Alex Smolowe: Oh my god.

[15:56] Nik Walker: Double feature with like Dragon World.

[15:58] Alex Smolowe: And you walk don't don't talk about fucking Dragon World.

[16:01] Nik Walker: You watch it. You watch it now and you realize what a tr like truly tragic. These movies are atrocious.

[16:06] Alex Smolowe: No, they're true.

[16:08] Nik Walker: Batman Forever is only outdone by Batman and Robin.

[16:12] Alex Smolowe: Which is makes Batcard forever look like a but the thing is they are filled with these moments that are memorable.

[16:18] Nik Walker: No, they are. These movies were good. The back card. The back card, never leave home without it. The back card and the bat nipples. That's when I that's when I said no. Bat card was that's my that's my that's my say no point. But um I look back at these movies. Yeah, no, no, no, no. Well, no, no, we're still on track, still on track. Back card is always on track. But I look back at these movies and I realize now um how supremely white they are. And I don't mean that in the way of culturally. I just mean there was maybe one black extra in these films. And for a young black boy growing up who loves superheroes, it was a very lonely uh space.

[17:01] Alex Smolowe: Yeah.

[17:01] Nik Walker: And there just there just wasn't I just didn't see. I just didn't see myself, and I Black Panther is not my favorite Marvel movie. It's not. I think that in all of them, and in terms of this first ten years, I think Civil War is the one that has everything that I love. I think I think it really encapsulates I think Civil War was like the next step of the evolution of the Marvel movie where it's like, oh, you guys wanna oh you wanna do this. You wanna get crazy. And like, you know, it was um really like the this this this um the you know I follow honest trailers if any of you watch honest trailers it's like this really funny uh screen rants thing that they do on YouTube where they they like do quote unquote honest trilogy movies and they they called they call the three phases of Marvel the first phase like is like the you know the like playing by the rules like can we do this phase the second phase is like uh like you know we're we're getting a little more bolder phase and then the third phase that has civil war is like when they said fuck yeah I'm a golden god I can do no wrong and like they're just fucking doing whatever they want to do and that's what that felt like to me Black Panther also falls in that category but it's not you know it's not my favorite movie it's not my favorite Marvel movie.

[18:22] Alex Smolowe: So yeah so let me ask you because Emin and I had this conversation about Black Panther because you know as a movie I didn't think it was really much better or worse than than most other Marvel movies. But what it represents yes right the fact that this movie exists yeah uh yeah yeah talk about that dynamic.

[18:44] Nik Walker: Well that's that's what I wanted to get to the fact that you have an African king as your superhero the fact the fact that your story is truly about the disconnection of black of black Americans from Africa. That is literally and like and that Disney lets you make that story. Do you know what I mean? Which like is incredibly I mean to Ryan Kugler's credit and like does his best to to make it very subversive. There were things said in that movie that I was like, they let you they let you say that. Because he doesn't he doesn't ever say it like on the 'cause no executive had the balls to call it out. Yeah. But like it's it's so I mean he hit it but like if you're listening it's there. Like like the some of these lines are just like ooh you really go there.

You really are making a statement. And that alone was powerful. But seeing seeing this like black man who was royal and who was evolved and who was flawed and and especially the way that Chadwick played him it wasn't you know I think I think that Marvel heroes can either be quippy or be like stoic and militaristic.

[20:02] Alex Smolowe: Yeah.

[20:03] Nik Walker: And Chadwick found a way to yeah he f you know T'Challa definitely falls more in the stoic version of things but Chadwick gave him such a vulnerability. Yeah he's he's a warm stoic he's a war he he really is a he's family he cares family in that and that was the first this is really the first Marvel hero I think who has this in them where not it's it's you know Star Lord is about family Chris Chris Pratt Star Lord is about family but it's it's about the family he lost and is hurt because he lost it. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. T'Challa is about I have a family and I'm gonna do whatever I need to do to protect that family. Right. And to honor that family and that is just such a different narrative for black people to see the to see themselves in on screen.

[20:49] Alex Smolowe: Well I mean and I think presenting a world you know this is a world that exists separate from everything else right instead of a story about trying to incorporate into a world that you don't fit into, it's about being strong in the world that you are in and that you know and the people you're surrounded by. It's saying it is like you don't have to be something else. You don't have to give any ground on what your voice is and what your culture is and who your people are. It is okay to have your own kingdom of you.

[21:20] Nik Walker: Yeah. Of you. And your family. Um, and I think that that's so separate from from you know, the depiction of the black struggle and in other movies and TV shows and things where it's it's about it's about running up against it. It's a it's about how it conflicts with everything. Instead of instead of just showing up, you know, a powerful group of people existing how they want to.

[21:42] Alex Smolowe: That's exact you you I couldn't have said it better. It that that's exactly right. And and and just I just think about all the young kids who come up in this era where they can see these films, as opposed to me who grew up with the Batman Forevers of the World. Do you know like it just I can't it makes a difference? It makes such a difference. And and that's why his loss is so huge, because like you have to understand there's there's only so many of us that they let through, even now. Even now when things are better, when thing when when we have made huge strides, there's no, you know, I can't the you cannot.

[22:13] Alex Smolowe: Well, so so we talked about Attack the Block last week. Did you read what John Boyega wrote?

[22:27] Nik Walker: Oh, oh well, I mean, yeah, and he's been saying that on his Twitter. Do you want to fill them in what he's been saying?

[22:32] Alex Smolowe: Well, so I I don't I didn't read too deeply about it, but basically John Boyega came out and and talked about basically just d directly address the fact that through the start the new Star Wars trilogy, he was kind of brought in and and tokenized and then moved off to the side, which is absolutely true. His character was presented in the first film uh in The Force Awakens as like this this guy's the new front and center hero of Star Wars. Over the course of the film, he was kind of resigned to you know class clown.

[23:02] Nik Walker: Absolutely.

[23:03] Alex Smolowe: Absolutely and and in a way that was like very strange. It was very strange. For who and like and and the way I think the way he phrased it was nuance. He's like, they gave Daisy nuance, they gave Adam nuance, and I like his characters didn't have any depth. Like there was nothing. And this is this is what's this is what's really messed up. Him, Oscar, and Kelly, all of them got relegated to these roles that were like, Yeah, what the hell are you doing? You know what I mean? Like, like it it once it you you you set off with the promise of bringing us a new generation of heroes, yeah, and you once again did what you have done. And and in a narrative that actually doesn't need do you mean like it would have been one here's the thing Star Wars, we're not looking for like nuanced portrayals.

We're just looking for good heroes, but like what you don't have to do is like turn everyone else into like a afterthought or a joke and like just focus in on your two white leads. Like you can you can find a middle ground there. Do you know what I mean? And and I think that that's I think that he's absolutely right. And then also, I mean, like, I can't imagine being at the forefront of a franchise like that, and being, you know, having to deal with all the stuff that comes with that from the fans, because the fan I'm sorry, uh I'm a Star Wars fan, but we can be some of us are vicious, and I'm and what when I'm when I say some of us, y'all know who I mean. They are vicious, and they don't and they don't let uh and like and like, you know, calling it like a social justice casting or whatever, it's like, nah, maybe it's he's just a good actor.

Like, the kid is a super talented actor. All five of them are super talented actors. And I and I say that again, I would watch Adam Driver read the frickin' phone book. You know what I mean? It's not and it's not about anything about Adam Driver's performance. It's just like you if you want to truly make a space, an equalized space, you gotta make an equalized space. And it was and again, I I yeah, I I I there's so much I could say about that, but I get I get the sense with Star Wars is that because there are so many kind of uh cooks in the kitchen in terms of of driving driving the thing and like toys are are a concern and all all of that.

[25:21] Nik Walker: I get the sense that the executives drove those decisions a lot more than the directors.

[25:27] Alex Smolowe: Absolutely because the third one, the last Jedi, had a different director at first, right?

[25:32] Nik Walker: Yeah, well it was supposed to be Gareth Edwards who did Godzilla.

[25:37] Alex Smolowe: Right, who did Godzilla? Which was pretty good.

[25:52] Nik Walker: Yeah. Do you think that, to me, that's executive stuff and so you never land anywhere actually that's gonna push a threshold that's gonna change anything?

[25:52] Alex Smolowe: Yeah.

[25:52] Nik Walker: Do you think that Black Panther, when Marvel sat down to pick not only that they were gonna make Black Panther but who they were gonna get to make it, do you think kind of leaving Kugler and Chadwick and all these people together to make the movie they wanted, was that an intentional thing? And is that an okay approach or not? Like, is it kind of working against something to be like, here, like go make this product, productizing their storytelling because it falls into a certain thing?

[26:29] Alex Smolowe: I go back to what I said about the three phases of Marvel. It sucks because Edgar Wright came in at the exact wrong time. He should have come in in these past three, four years, right? Because he came in when they were still like being a little trepidatious. The Russo brothers still hadn't proven themselves. Do you know what I mean? Like he came in and they were still trying to just kind of improve, plus the movies that they had already made, right? So he came in with a vision for Ant-Man, and they were like, that's too weird. And then recently, now that they've like, you know, once they established themselves, like they were like, let's embrace the weird. So they got Taika Waititi in there doing all sorts of like taking Thor and saying, let's re-jigger this thing completely.

You got the Russo brothers being their best selves and stringing together some incredible work in Civil War. And then you let loose with Ryan Kugler. And I think that specifically with him, I don't know what went on behind the scenes, but I can tell you there's no world with Marvel Studios, there's no world in which this stuff is not passed by every executive at some point.

[27:41] Nik Walker: Oh yeah. There's no world.

[27:42] Alex Smolowe: That said, what I felt when I watched the movie was that they let them go, they were like, we'll pull you back, but go far. Like, go far. Do you mean you got Ruth Carter, probably the best, I mean, if not one of the few black women costume designers of all time, but who has designed most in most of the black movies that you love, Ruth E. Carter designed the costumes, and you got her on Black Panther doing like straight up African, like not, we're not even pretending. Do you mean like there is no world in which this is not an African? There's no, all of these motherfuckers are dark skinned. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's not like there's, it is African, and the importance of that and allowing the story to be told, and then like again, like subtle things.

Like, I was honestly, the things that shocked me the most were the things they did with Martin Freeman's character. Because, like, in him, you have you literally have the voice of the studios in that character being like, you're a third world country, it's too much, you know, pull it back, whatever. And then Umbaku barks at this guy. He literally looks at me and says, oh, oh, oh, and like shuts him up. Like, every time this white man tries to talk in this movie, they're like, shh, it's not about you. It's not about you. And like, that is insane. The culture, like, that's beyond like just a racial joke. That's like, that is a statement. Do you know what I mean? That is huge. I will, I saw when I, you talk about me renting out the theater, that my Hamilton cast, well, you know, 90% of us are African American or have some African American heritage.

And when those moments happened, it was people standing up and clapping. There were swathes of people who went to see Avengers Infinity War solely because they knew those characters were in there. Yeah, they didn't know anything about the movie coming up into it, but they knew that T'Challa and Shuri were there and they were like, I'm gonna be there. That's the power of what they did, and that's why I think even if an executive at some point had their hands on it, whatever they did, that's how they should be doing these movies.

[29:54] Alex Smolowe: Yeah. Because it's, again, embrace the directors that you have. Let them run free. Let them do their thing. And then, yeah, and then you go back to in the editing room and you say, okay, here's what we need to put, here's what we need to adjust to make it this, reshoot this, do this. But like you at least let them be your baseline. And I just think, I also just think not even in terms of representation, but like in terms of product, you just get a better product. You know, let the artist be the artist, and then you be the business people. And I think that's, you know, talk about Star Wars. I think that's part of the thing too, is like whether or not, you know, I was, was John, what happened to John Boyega overtly racist?

We will never know. We truly will never know. We will never know if there was a meeting where like the black guy's not testing, pull him back. Do you know, we will never be in those rooms, but what you did definitely sends a certain message, and John Boyega's right to say something about it. And beyond that, I would go so far as to say that if you had a story that was, I don't know, planned out, if you knew what your story was before you did it, then you would have been able to give this actor any sort of arc, any sort of arc at all.

[31:17] Nik Walker: Yeah.

[31:17] Alex Smolowe: Because, I mean, it's tough to say that it was any one thing with that just because of how much of a mess it all was. And granted, you know, I went back to Return of the Jedi recently, and I don't know if you, if anybody's watched Return of the Jedi recently, but like the disparity in tone between episodes four, five, and six. I mean, like, it's nothing new. The only difference was those were, you know, they were somehow able to keep the through lines. The tones were, well, they were supposed to not be. Return of the Jedi was supposed to be Revenge of the Jedi, and it was, you know, Luke was supposed to die at the end and all this stuff, and then it was a studio thing. Like, oh no, we'll sell more toys if it's happy, and there's literally Han Solo literally becomes Barney the Clown.

Like, it's absurd. It's truly an absurd film. And I didn't realize it until I rewatched it. I was like, holy shit, this is bad. You guys, this is bad, guys. Like, what did you do? And especially because you set it up with the promise of Empire. But again, like story-wise, those three stories connect. Like, that's what makes it work is like you can at least follow the bouncing ball into the different tones. You know, but the Star Wars trilogy is like from the bottom, from top down, it's just like what the hell?

[32:38] Nik Walker: Well, so there's Chadwick Boseman through the lens of Marvel.

[32:42] Alex Smolowe: Yep. And what he brought to the world in that department as we've dug a little deeper into because I was not familiar with maybe any of his other work.

[32:52] Nik Walker: Oh, yeah.

[32:53] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So did what did you pick? Do we, you know, we just we each picked one to watch just so we'd have a broader conversation than just, oh, Black Panther. So I'll, yeah, what'd you find?

[33:08] Nik Walker: I mean, so what I'll do, I'll actually do what we normally do, which is, you know, do the thing, set it up, set it up. Because I mean, the filmography is not that big. I think you'll be able to get it right off the bat. We open with one of my favorite singers of all time, Marvin Gaye. And shots of the sixties. A lot of shots of the sixties. Document and truly footage of the sixties. Like this is not filmed. This is, you're seeing a lot of President Nixon, you're seeing a lot of the Vietnam War. You know, Tiananmen Square. You see the monk burning himself in protest of the Vietnam War. Really graphic images. There's one image that he, there's a shot of a man who was shot by GIs in the street, and you actually see it happen.

You see the last seconds of this man's life, actual footage of it. And you're just going through, going through, and then it cuts to present day Vietnam in a hotel. I think it's called the Majestic Hotel, I think my mind is correct. My mind is remembering. And there's an older black gentleman waiting in the lobby sipping a drink, and another black gentleman comes up behind him, and either it's like kind of a reunion, like you know, you get the sense, okay, are these guys soldiers? Have they been here before? And then two other black gentlemen come up and they're having a reunion and they are like hugging each other, and you know, you're kind of getting a sense for who they are character-wise.

One of them seems a little more reserved than the others. One of them is like flashing his money around, he's apparently paid for the whole trip. One of them's like the Joker, the other one's like the smallest one's like the leader. And then they go out to a bar and they're just like dancing to old 70s music. And one of them earlier has pulled out a picture of a fifth member that you can guess is no longer with them. The man in the picture is of course Chadwick Boseman in the movie is The Five Bloods. Our platoon was ordered to find a C47 CIA plane that went down with the payroll for the native people, the Lahu. Now they didn't want to be paid in paper currency, so Uncle Sam was paying them in gold bars for their help against the VC.

Well, we found the gold. We bury it. For now. Yes, we say the VC got it. They don't, we come back and collect. You may rip it off. We ain't ripping off shit. Who feel like they're ripping something off? We was the very first people that die for this red, white, and blue. Yeah, that's right. It was a soul, brother. Chris Versadics at the motherfucking Boston Massacre. We've been dying for this country from the very get. Hoping one day they give us our rightful place. All they give us was a foot up our black asses. But fuck that. I say the USA owe us.

[36:17] Alex Smolowe: So originally I wasn't going, originally I was gonna pick one of his biopics because he's done a ton of biopics.

[36:24] Nik Walker: Yeah.

[36:24] Alex Smolowe: But so yeah, I mean, I kind of want to talk about because it's a short filmography, but you kind of see the evolution of a career. You see kind of the path that he had put himself on. Yes, from pre to post Black Panther. He really did an amazing job of, you know, I think it was really cool. And I didn't even realize it when it was happening, but that he was just going around playing black heroes. And that was such an amazing thing. And I think that, you know, Spike Lee in interviews has said that all those choices led to him being cast as this character in The Five Bloods. This character that he plays, Stormin' Norman. One of the things I love about this, The Five Bloods, is that all the characters are named for the Temptations. Norman, Otis, David, Paul, Eddie. Who am I missing?

[37:09] Nik Walker: Otis, David, Paul, Eddie.

[37:19] Alex Smolowe: Oh my god. Who is the, Alan, you would know in the show. You're in the show.

[37:24] Nik Walker: Who do you play?

[37:26] Alex Smolowe: Oh, Melvin.

[37:27] Nik Walker: Nope, it's Melvin.

[37:28] Alex Smolowe: Melvin's, I play Otis. I play Otis, but Melvin's who I'm missing. But the cool thing is that Spike Lee said that, you know, we needed this character that Chadwick plays in this movie is not, it's truly a supporting role. It's like, it's very much like that and character.

[37:55] Alex Smolowe: That's the heavy, right? It's like Ian McKellen and Ian McKellen and Kate Blanchett, and this is very much and Chadwick Boseman. Um and he plays like the leader of this old troop in this movie, and it is really a special performance because so much of it is about him being this kind of ethereal presence. Like he lives only in their memory, and so there's an intensity that he brings, and a just kind of like a in it's a very it's it's very eerie. It's very eerie to watch because especially because this man is dead now, to watch a movie where he's essentially playing a ghost. Um so I haven't watched it yet. Is it it's like it takes place in the modern day following modern day soldiers after they've grown up and they're looking back and it goes back and forth.

[38:47] Nik Walker: It's pretty yes, that's exactly what it does. And it's really a treasure hunt. So that the plot is without and this doesn't give anything away, but the plot is that as soldiers in the Vietnam War, they found treasure, they found gold.

[39:00] Alex Smolowe: Gotcha.

[39:01] Nik Walker: And they buried this gold and promised each other that they would come back to get it once everything was cleared and safe. And this is the four of them returning. Norman, who Chadwick plays, did not make it back, so they're also coming to pay, you know, pay their last respects to him. Um and it's that story, it's like the story of this treasure hunt, but it also just like it just gets into issues of masculinity and of black men's experience in America, and you know, just like most Spike Lee movies do, there's so many layers to it. It, you know, sometimes Spike Lee to me is a hit or miss, but in this this one is a hit. This one is actually absolutely one of his best films since Malcolm X. It is truly a gut punch. It's not an it's not it's not it's a it's a thrilling watch.

[39:49] Alex Smolowe: I think what he also allows himself to do is like I think one of the things that Spike down sometimes is that he gets obsessed with his social commentary and the social commentary overrides the movie. And I find that, and this is similar to what Pete Chapman said. I think we talked about this with Pete Chapman, that Spike is best is at his best when he's kind of confined by genre, in my opinion. I think that when you just give him the constraints of like this is this movie about this, and then he finds a way to subversively put his stuff in there.

[40:23] Nik Walker: Mm-hmm.

[40:23] Alex Smolowe: It rings truer and it just hits you better. And this is one of those movies because the movie is literally a treasure hunt. That is the movie. Um and a very, very tense and thrilling treasure hunt. Um and then the social commentary comes in and you're like, and it just hits you. Delroy Lindo in particular um will be getting an Oscar nomination this year. I guarantee it. I guarantee it. Um it is the that his performance uh is absolutely stunning.

[40:51] Nik Walker: But Chadwick I really need to watch this.

[40:53] Alex Smolowe: You do so yeah, tell me tell me about about Chadwick. What I love about Chadwick's performance in the movie, um, he really doesn't have that much screen time. Um it's very, it's very uh like he's he's in there uh in like I said, in their memory. But it's all about his eyes.

[41:15] Nik Walker: He does this thing without giving too much away. There is an intensity to him that he always brings to his characters, but particularly in this one, he, you know, ghosts are very interesting things in film because they are both there to be reminders of the person we lost and their warnings. And especially in this film, his ghost is a warning, and his ghost is not always like a welcome presence in the minds of these older men.

[41:52] Alex Smolowe: And he plays this role with such a power, but all like it's a power that's like, you know, Spike does that wonderful thing where he has you staring straight at dead at the camera, and Chadwick's eyes just stay, I can see them right in my mind. You are as in awe of him as you are scared of him.

[42:13] Nik Walker: Yeah.

[42:13] Alex Smolowe: I mean, it's something he I it's something I don't think that he can help but bring to it. It's just that there he has that, you know, they talk about like an it factor of something you can't quite define, some kind of power where you don't need to say a word, you don't need to do anything. You understand where this person's kind of center is, right? You understand what they're about and what they stand for and what they you know the power that they have without them having to do anything.

[42:39] Nik Walker: And I mean the movie I chose, it's the same thing where you know just just him being there, even without any dialogue, you from from the way that he's looking at these characters and the movements he's making, you understand, you know, what he is.

[42:57] Alex Smolowe: Completely.

[42:57] Nik Walker: And it's so unique.

[43:00] Alex Smolowe: It's incredibly unique. And it's and it's you know, there's so many, I mean, there's so many actors right now uh who especially black, you know, black men, I think we're in this weird place because we are getting our asses kicked by black British men. Um and that's actually just true across the board, I think. I think I don't think it's just for black men. I think for men in general, Brits are kicking our butt.

[43:25] Nik Walker: Brits are coming in and being like, yo, we got this.

[43:28] Alex Smolowe: Because I think that in America, I think that we that acting is personality. In Britain, it's still craft. And so you have guys coming over there, uh Daniel Kaluuya, I for I I'm sure I'm not pronouncing his name right.

[43:43] Nik Walker: Is he English?

[43:43] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, oh yeah.

[43:44] Nik Walker: He's British, bro.

[43:45] Alex Smolowe: Really? Isn't that crazy?

[43:47] Nik Walker: British.

[43:48] Alex Smolowe: British. Chiwetel.

[43:49] Nik Walker: I totally forgot that you would say that Tom Hollandwood. I was watching an interview that you've got to do.

[43:53] Alex Smolowe: Isn't it crazy?

[43:54] Nik Walker: Oh, yeah, he's British. It's it's the same thing. And I'm watching The Wire and Idris Elba.

[43:58] Alex Smolowe: That's what I'm saying.

[44:00] Nik Walker: Yeah.

[44:01] Alex Smolowe: It's it's insane when you have like what training will do. And there are people who are trained, who stand like uh the person I will always come back to is Lakeith Stanfield.

[44:12] Nik Walker: Um is he British too?

[44:14] Alex Smolowe: No, he is American, and but he is trained. That boy is trained, and you see it because it's not just about it's it there's just a there's just a gravitas to the work and there is a there is a uh a depth that is not there, you know, when when you're just showing up to be personality and read the lines off.

[44:35] Nik Walker: Yeah, he he you know, he he understands what it is to craft a character, you know.

[44:42] Alex Smolowe: Um you know what that's why I don't like Chris Pratt.

[44:45] Nik Walker: I think I'm thinking about not that I don't appreciate it and or think that he's a talented person, but I think that's what he's lacking, you know, through the Jurassic Park movies, especially is like it feels like he is showing up to be hit a personality and he can deliver the lines competently. And that's and and in this age, when going back to our original conversation about in this age of like Instagram and all this stuff, like that sells because yeah, you know these people on Instagram.

[45:15] Alex Smolowe: I mean, that that's a huge part of it.

[45:16] Nik Walker: That's the part of it. You want to yeah, I don't I don't really care about Jurassic Park. I want to spend some time with Chris Pratt.

[45:21] Alex Smolowe: Do you mean like when Jurassic or Jurassic World, sorry, because it's not Jurassic Park, because that was the thing, like right when when Jurassic World or when Jurassic Park came out in '93, like yeah, Jeff Goldblum was he's like definitely is definitely a star. Laura Dern, like young up and comer. Um, you know, they were trying to get Harrison Ford for Dr. Alan Grant, and then uh went with Sam Neill.

[45:42] Nik Walker: Um, do you mean but like none of these people were like box office draws?

[45:46] Alex Smolowe: Not a one of them, not really, you know.

[45:49] Nik Walker: But now you have a Chris Pratt helming Jurassic World, and it's like, yeah, come spend some time with Chris Pratt and some dinosaurs.

[45:56] Alex Smolowe: Do you mean like that's that is the sell?

[45:59] Nik Walker: And so again, I it's not to say that you know, clearly the man is doing something right because he's making hand over fist, maybe not now in the pandemic, but like his movies make hand over fist.

[46:08] Alex Smolowe: Oh, yeah.

[46:09] Nik Walker: Well, I mean it's it's a huge part of it. I mean, uh, as an actor in Hollywood, I'm sure you have to look at your career and and and play to your strengths. And there are actors who are working because they are very talented craftsmen, and there are actors that are working because they are really fun to watch. They're very entertaining, and they have the right series of, you know.

[46:28] Alex Smolowe: I don't know how you move from Parks and Rec to being a global movie star, uh, but good on it, good on him for doing it.

[46:36] Nik Walker: Yeah, um, my my choice that I went with for Chadwick, and I'll I'll set it up just so we can it's not super important. Um I I wanna I want to be careful with this one because I didn't really enjoy enjoy it.

[46:49] Alex Smolowe: That's fair.

[46:50] Nik Walker: Um and I don't want to I don't want to disparage it, I don't want to talk about the negatives because they're definitely there, but it's an interesting, you know, I'm I'm looking at it more in the context of of this career that he was building and and these choices that he's making where where he fits into the Five Bloods as you know he he's made a career of playing these heroes, um, and he fits in thematically and all that. This one's um a little bit different of a choice.

[47:16] Alex Smolowe: Uh, and I'm I'm curious about it.

[47:18] Nik Walker: So I will go through it really quickly. So we open on a church, a sermon, a packed house, a lot of people there. Um, the priest is talking about. First, Reginald found a woman as strong, driven, and smart as he.

[47:39] Alex Smolowe: And then I think of his boy, Andre.

[47:45] Nik Walker: And I see the same, sometimes infuriating fearlessness. We focus in on a young boy and his mother sitting in the front.

[47:55] Alex Smolowe: It's the son of the man who's died, and he's watching, and the priest is talking about the mother and how he found this wonderful woman.

[48:04] Nik Walker: And how they had this wonderful son, and he's, you know, and what what this boy, what with using his father's legacy, what this boy is gonna bring to the world. Cut to present day.

[48:15] Alex Smolowe: Uh the little boy is Chadwick Boseman.

[48:18] Nik Walker: He's a detective, and he's on, he's in he's in front of an uh internal and fares, internal affairs investigation.

[48:27] Alex Smolowe: I didn't have a choice.

[48:30] Nik Walker: I could choose not to be a cop. Being a cop isn't a choice for me.

[48:36] Alex Smolowe: What is it?

[48:37] Nik Walker: DNA. He's he's being questioned about maybe he uses too much force. Is it always justified? He's got a reputation as being trigger happy. He defends himself, you know, as as saying he's he's doing what needs to be done, he knows who he is, he's you know, he could never it's in his DNA to be doing this, but you can tell he he doesn't he doesn't fit in with the rest of the room.

[48:59] Alex Smolowe: That's you know, it's cops talking to cops.

[49:02] Nik Walker: Yep. Um, and you can tell that he immediately through the way he delivers this monologue. It's a it's like a pretty serious dramatic scene just because he's there. The dialogue is whatever. The, you know, the the scene is not even, it doesn't seem that important, but just his seriousness, his gravitas that he brings in swings like a hammer.

[49:24] Alex Smolowe: During the Civil War, some soldiers just kept loading their muskets without ever firing.

[49:30] Nik Walker: Five or six balls loaded on top of each other. Vietnam, only 30% of frontline infantry soldiers ever fired a shot.

[49:38] Alex Smolowe: So ten soldiers in battle, only three truly fighting.

[49:42] Nik Walker: Are you really using war analogies here, Detective Dave?

[49:45] Alex Smolowe: What do you imagine the other seven would do it? Over the course of this first act, we follow two criminals who are gonna knock over a bar. You know, they there's cocaine there, they're gonna steal. It goes wrong, they end up killing a bunch of police, and they have to shut Manhattan down. Chadwick's the the lead detective who's gonna catch him, he says, shut shut down the 21 bridges.

[50:11] Nik Walker: I need to take my meds.

[50:12] Alex Smolowe: No, no, no, no.

[50:13] Nik Walker: You took home. You you already took home.

[50:16] Alex Smolowe: You look tired.

[50:19] Nik Walker: You work too hard.

[50:22] Nik Walker: You got that right.

[50:25] Alex Smolowe: It's the job.

[50:27] Nik Walker: What I'll do.

[50:28] Alex Smolowe: I know.

[50:31] Nik Walker: You gotta look the devil in the eye.

[50:35] Alex Smolowe: Yeah.

[50:36] Nik Walker: The film is 21 Bridges.

[50:38] Alex Smolowe: Uh, because I guess that's how many bridges there are that connect Manhattan to the rest of the world.

[50:44] Nik Walker: So the idea is they shut the island down. It's a very love that title, by the way.

[50:45] Alex Smolowe: Love that.

[50:48] Nik Walker: It's it's a great title. Uh it's an absurd premise.

[50:53] Alex Smolowe: Sure.

[50:54] Nik Walker: Um, if you ever thought about it, it's again, this is where like I don't want to get into the negative.

[51:01] Alex Smolowe: No, yes.

[51:01] Nik Walker: This movie is surprisingly 80s.

[51:05] Alex Smolowe: Yes.

[51:05] Nik Walker: It's surpr it it harkens back to an era of, you know, more bullets, more car chases, bigger ideas, uh, you know, very hard, you know, just just big, you know.

[51:20] Alex Smolowe: It feels yeah, watching the trailer, it felt like uh a movie that uh that Denzel would have done.

[51:26] Nik Walker: Absolutely. You know what I mean? Like this would have been one of his starring vehicles.

[51:29] Alex Smolowe: And and everything is done, everything is done competently. Uh and and Chadwick's performance is great.

[51:38] Nik Walker: Um, but what struck me is and what's different from literally everything else I've seen him in, is that it could have been somebody else.

[51:46] Alex Smolowe: Yes.

[51:47] Nik Walker: That can't they could have cast somebody else.

[51:50] Alex Smolowe: Yes.

[51:51] Nik Walker: Um the character is not deep.

[51:54] Alex Smolowe: Yep.

[51:54] Nik Walker: You know, all he's got for his personal struggle is his, you know, the story with his dad, who was who was killed by criminals, you know, and died fighting back against the criminals.

[52:05] Alex Smolowe: And so you get kind of what drives him, and he wants you know, the very classic, like the cop wants to fight against, you know, the dirty cops, and and because he's got principles and morals and you know, fight for what's right and all that kind of stuff.

[52:18] Nik Walker: And um it's very, very generic in that sense.

[52:22] Alex Smolowe: And it was it was interesting. It's just it's interesting. I don't know. Fun to watch a movie like that though, because they don't really make them like that anymore.

[52:29] Nik Walker: But what I will say, in in in you know, it in line with everything else we're saying about Chadwick's career. You know, when Denzel, like I think about um what's that movie he made uh about with Anne uh Annette Benning about terrorism in New York?

[52:48] Alex Smolowe: The Siege.

[52:49] Nik Walker: The Siege, the Siege with him and Bruce Willis and Annette Benning. Um you know, these these kind of generic movies where Yeah, they could it could have been anyone.

[53:00] Alex Smolowe: Like I think about Manchurian Candidate, right? And again, great character. Could have been anyone, did not have to be Denzel.

[53:07] Nik Walker: Could have been anyone. Did not have to be Denzel. But I think that...

[53:09] Alex Smolowe: Go ahead.

[53:13] Nik Walker: Well, so yeah, so this this felt like because of Black Panther, because of the rising star. And that's how it felt when they advertised it too, you know.

[53:21] Alex Smolowe: Yeah.

[53:21] Nik Walker: He's front and center, Chadwick Boseman, action film, whatever. I think it's it's like co-produced with the Chinese. Um it was kind of built as this global action movie, uh, pushing Chadwick, you know, onto things beyond Marvel.

[53:38] Alex Smolowe: Um and the and the cast around him is great. Sienna Miller is in it, J.K. Simmons, as always, is amazing.

[53:41] Nik Walker: Taylor Kitsch from Friday Night Lights is in it, who's pretty good. In a role that I just read was actually Chris Pratt was up for it.

[53:50] Alex Smolowe: For Taylor Kitsch's role?

[53:52] Nik Walker: Yeah, they were gonna Chris Pratt.

[53:53] Alex Smolowe: That makes sense. Again, really anybody, you know, he he plays one of the two uh guys who tries to to steal the the drugs and gets caught up in this huge thing.

[54:03] Nik Walker: Um so it it's and it's it's fun, you know. Again, everything is everything is competent, and what what Chadwick brings to it, I think, is that idea where whereas Denzel, he walks into a room, you know, cock of the walk, I'm here, I'm gonna fuck you up, I'm a here.

[54:22] Alex Smolowe: You know, you know.

[54:23] Nik Walker: He plays Action Star as like a I'm in control and you better watch out kind of action star. Um Chadwick's got that vulnerability, right? He's got that quietness. He's got that, he's not gonna let anybody fuck with him.

[54:37] Alex Smolowe: He says all the right things and does all the right things to push back when he needs to and to make sure that nobody's getting in his way.

[54:42] Nik Walker: He has the energy and and the uh the momentum of a Denzel like character, but he does it quietly. He does it stoically, he does it, you know, uh a little gracefully. Um and you uh and you understand through that without him needing to prove it, which the script goes ahead and and basically, you know, it's a paint by numbers kind of like this is who I am and why I do this kind of thing.

[55:04] Alex Smolowe: Yep.

[55:05] Nik Walker: Um you you still understand why he's making the choices that he does and and the interactions he has with the obviously torn, you know, quote unquote criminals who actually maybe maybe they're not bad people and they're just caught in a bad situation, and he's the only one who recognizes it.

[55:19] Alex Smolowe: It all makes sense because it's him.

[55:23] Nik Walker: You're the only cop tonight who space first and show second.

[55:27] Alex Smolowe: It's fucking morning.

[55:28] Nik Walker: And you killed eight of us.

[55:30] Alex Smolowe: Not all wait, we're clean.

[55:33] Nik Walker: Who cares?

[55:35] Alex Smolowe: You do.

[55:38] Nik Walker: How do you know I'm any different?

[55:42] Alex Smolowe: Because you would have shot me by now.

[55:44] Nik Walker: But it's not enough to it's not enough to save save the movie, unfortunately.

[55:48] Alex Smolowe: No, no, but you know, but again, I think that I think that the beauty here is like uh look, every script that you get, every movie you make is not gonna be the best movie in the world.

[55:59] Nik Walker: But did you did you elevate the movie? Did your presence make the movie more than it should have been than it ever deserved to be?

[56:06] Alex Smolowe: And it sounds like from what you're saying, yes, he he did that.

[56:11] Nik Walker: And that that is a power.

[56:12] Alex Smolowe: He did all he could.

[56:13] Nik Walker: He did all he could. And I mean, it brings there's you know the other aspect of all this, obviously, that we should talk about, you know, we we can't know anything for sure, but uh from 2016 on, he was battling cancer.

[56:26] Alex Smolowe: Which which is a which is a fight that drains you not only emotionally, knowing the fight that you have ahead and and a potential outcome, um, but physically going through chemotherapy and and you know, all of the weight loss and all of the just you know, I've I've I've seen family members go through colon cancer. My aunt passed away from colon cancer, and and watching the progression of what that is, by the end, it's it's hard to get up and get out of bed.

[56:53] Nik Walker: Um and and to to run a career. Not you know, not even keeping people in the dark about it, but just to to go and all of what it takes, all of the energy that it takes to do even one of these things.

[57:06] Alex Smolowe: There's a school of thought that says, you know, should we glorify the fact that he you know kept pushing forward because at the end of the day, you have a person who you know should have been resting.

[57:18] Nik Walker: I mean, not should have been resting, but like he he chose let's let's say this, Chadwick chose to do exactly what he wanted to do. But anybody that's sick deserves to be able to rest.

[57:29] Alex Smolowe: What what this says to me where I come down on this is you did what you loved. That's what I that's what I love more than any of this is like you if you are gonna especially after the movies you made, dude.

[57:42] Nik Walker: You got a whole st you had a whole studio invested in your health. All you have to do is be like, hey, I'm good. When when that dude from Andy Whitfield from Spartacus, when he started his battle with cancer, they literally they shut down. They said, Cool, we're gonna rewrite we are not filming this until you're better, bro. We're gonna rewrite the second season and we're gonna go back in time so that your character's not even in it yet.

[58:04] Alex Smolowe: So to give you time to do what you gotta do.

[58:07] Nik Walker: And that was that was stars. Do you know what I mean? That's not even Disney. Disney who like you just made them f cajillion dollars and he chose to keep working.

[58:20] Alex Smolowe: And that's I I I I view it less about like, oh my god, the strength that that takes, more about you fucking loved what you did.

[58:28] Nik Walker: And that that's what I I think is the best part. That's the thing that I that is an inspirational to me is like and and it's the thing that gives me hope in the midst of all this, because it's like if there's something that you love that you are that you truly feel you're built to do, you find a way to do it.

[58:45] Alex Smolowe: Just because it gives you joy.

[58:47] Nik Walker: And I and I I want what I what I hope for him, I hope that every moment on set was a joyful one. I I just hope that every time he stepped on into work, that he, even if it was a bad day, I hope he just enjoyed the work because that's I that's the only reason I can think of that you would do that.

[59:07] Alex Smolowe: And um I think it was Spike shared a clip um the day or two after after he passed away of a behind the scenes, maybe the last day of shooting on Five Bloods. And it's just them, you know, that they're they are coming out saying, you know, like we want to do it one more time, one more time, and the whole the whole cast comes out with water guns and just starts spraying everybody and everybody's you know, laughing and having that kind of like, you know, that family element that you want on a set where everybody you know you're just you're just ripping on everybody else and you're you're out doing work, but but having a great time doing it.

[59:40] Nik Walker: And I I think it, you know, it just kind of showed that yeah, he was, you know he was there having fun he was there sharing sharing his his heart and his soul with people and yeah and I will say I miss it I miss it so much that is something uh in a in a very real moment I will tell you like I I think about that often and there's you know there's a couple people who are who are returning back to to work um in the arts you know getting getting you know whether they're filming up in Vancouver or you know people filming out out of the country but it is um that camaraderie of being around a group of people and and working towards a common goal on something uh is something I miss every day.

[1:00:21] Alex Smolowe: So I me too.

[1:00:22] Nik Walker: Yeah.

[1:00:23] Alex Smolowe: I'm very glad that he got to got to have that in his last years.

[1:00:27] Nik Walker: Um but Chadwick listen uh we so appreciate everything that you did and everything that you are and your legacy will never be forgotten.

[1:00:38] Alex Smolowe: Um you know you have in such a short time made such a mark on this world um thank you for everything you left uh left us to enjoy and we can't you have one more gift you have uh Ma Rainey's Black Bottom based on the the uh play by August Wilson and the um in his I always forget what the cycle is called but it's a cycle of ten plays.

[1:00:59] Nik Walker: Is it the Pittsburgh it might be the Pittsburgh cycle of Philadelphia I for I forget.

[1:01:02] Alex Smolowe: Um but can't can't wait to can't wait to check it out. It's gonna be I'm sure it's gonna be amazing.

[1:01:05] Nik Walker: Um have you ever seen it the the actual play?

[1:01:10] Alex Smolowe: Yeah oh no no I've seen so so the thing is um August Wilson is one of the it's it's it's kind of fucked up, but August Wilson when I was when I was in school, kids, August Wilson was the playwright that like you know uh when whenever a black actor came in um they'd be like oh yeah do some August Wilson and they'd throw you in August Wilson like every black actor, it's the Pittsburgh cycle.

[1:01:35] Nik Walker: Every black actor gets a get got an August August Wilson scene because that was the only black playwright that schools knew to...

[1:01:35] Alex Smolowe: Oh he did Fences, that makes sense.

[1:01:46] Nik Walker: Yeah, no, he it's the yeah, it's Fences. It's it's the Pittsburgh, it's all the all the plays are all decades in Pittsburgh.

[1:01:53] Alex Smolowe: So Jitney is the nineteen seventies, Ma Rainey's Black Bottom is nineteen twenties, Fences 1950s, Joe Turner's Come and Gone is 1910s, Piano Lesson in 1930s, Two Trains Running is nineteen sixties, Seven Guitars nineteen forties, King Hedley 1980s, Gem of the Ocean, nineteen hundreds, and Radio Golf is the nineteen nineties.

[1:02:08] Nik Walker: So the kind of focus you need to have to see a plan like that through.

[1:02:13] Alex Smolowe: Insane is insane.

[1:02:14] Nik Walker: Insane.

[1:02:15] Alex Smolowe: Um yeah, truly, and I mean, let's be real. I mean, you know, I say that I mean August Wilson, easily one of the best playwrights of our time. Um, and and those plays are incredible. So I can't wait to see it.

[1:02:27] Nik Walker: But uh, but yeah, this is this has been a nice send off to a truly, truly, truly legendary actor. Um so thank you, Chadwick.

[1:02:35] Alex Smolowe: And uh Nik, you uh you you take care of yourself, buddy.

[1:02:41] Nik Walker: You too, professor.

[1:02:42] Alex Smolowe: Little Justice.

[1:02:46] Nik Walker: Little Justice.

[1:02:49] Alex Smolowe: Little Justice.

[1:02:52] Nik Walker: Fuck yeah.