This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Nik Walker: How was your night?

[0:01] Alex Smolowe: Alex.

[0:03] Nik Walker: So we don't usually talk about the movies that we're going to talk about in our cold open, but I just want to say, look, right now we're in this great period of invention, quarantine, where people are thinking when we first started quarantine, you know, yo, you know, Shakespeare wrote King Lear in quarantine. When you come out, you know, have a fucking masterpiece. And then everybody, you know, pushed up against that, and we're like, no, you shouldn't feel any need to have a fucking masterpiece when you come out of quarantine. I want to come out of quarantine with a time machine. I'll tell you why. Because with this time machine, the first place I'm gonna go is June 16th, 2020. That was yesterday.

I'm gonna go back to the Nick that had the idea to do the theme, the worst movie to watch at 2 a.m. over again, because we already did it, but then the audio was bad because my microphone at the time sucked, so we were like, let's do it again again. And this time, you know, last time I chose It Follows. This time I would I chose a movie that we will get into after the cold open. I watched it at 2 a.m. last night. Me and Alex watched our movies at 2 a.m. and I was texting him, and I was scared shitless. I have never been more frightened of a fucking movie in my life, and I want to get in the time machine. I want to go back to myself and say, listen, fucker, don't fucking do this. Are you insane?

What's wrong with you? Get fucking help. Get help right now. I would go back and meet Leonardo da Vinci. Little Justin. Little just. Fuck yeah. Oh my god. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome, welcome, welcome to Little Justice, this thing we do. I am Nik Walker.

[1:52] Alex Smolowe: I'm Alex Molo. Today's theme, as I said already, is not Leonardo da Vinci.

[1:58] Nik Walker: Really hate it.

[1:59] Alex Smolowe: This was your idea.

[2:00] Nik Walker: I know. This was a fucking dude. This was a terrible fucking idea. I was a little surprised because the first time we did it, you talked about how difficult horror movies are for you.

[2:09] Alex Smolowe: I kind of like it. You know, I grew up on this. I'm like, it's an experience for sure. You gotta brace yourself to get into a horror movie, but I can do it, but you avoid the Tower of Terror.

[2:18] Nik Walker: I hate it.

[2:18] Alex Smolowe: I fucking hate the Tower of Terror. I hate that shit. I hate because you know, I can do it when it's the Guardians of the Galaxy because the queue is fun. It's a fun cube. Benicio del Toro's there, and you got the little rocket puppet, like, hey, we're gonna break him out of the lift, and you fucking go in the lift and you're like, hands up, everybody, it's time to rock and roll, and like that's fucking fun. It's not like Twilight's O Tower of Terror, where it's like, on this night, you're gonna fucking die. You're gonna die. Like the whole thing, like you're gonna shit your pants.

[2:47] Nik Walker: It's safe to assume that you don't watch horror movies often.

[2:51] Alex Smolowe: No. So my wife loves a good horror movie, so I'm trying to get into them more. And here's what's interesting too. We try to choose very specific genres. Because if we were to just do the, you know, favorite horror movie, favorite this movie, favorite that movie, we'd be out of genres within half a half a year. Do you know what I mean? So what we're doing is we're getting specific about the genres that we are doing. So this is, this was not just a horror movie. This was the worst movie to watch at 2 a.m. Specifically, what movie is the worst movie to watch at 2 a.m.?

[3:22] Nik Walker: So first you have to break down what is 2 a.m. 2 a.m. is when it's dark. It's when it's like right before it's like an hour before the witching hour, shadows on the fucking walls. It's not just dark, it's empty. You know, it's like everybody's in bed. It's been quiet for several hours, right? It's not like, oh, like I'm going to bed and now it's 2 a.m. It's like, no, everyone's already been asleep. Things have had a chance to crawl out of the shadows. When I was watching this movie, I had my headphones in, but I also had some, you know, people riding, like random people would ride by on their bicycles. I don't know if they were delivering shit or whatever. It was fucking brutal, and I can't tell you how already terrified I was to the point where, and I tell you, you know, me and Alex were texting while we were watching these movies, and we were both like, God, our wives are asleep, it's just us. This is the dumbest thing we ever could have done. And I told Alex at a certain point I had to stop watching the movie with sound. I had to turn off the sound. That was how bad.

[4:17] Alex Smolowe: So you turned off the sound. So here you are sitting there, you've put headphones on, you've committed yourself to watching a horror movie, and we'll find out which one it is in a bit. How far into the movie were you before you turned the sound off? Because that seems ridiculous to me.

[4:31] Nik Walker: I'll tell you where it comes from. Um, when I was a kid, I was, cause I've always been scared of scary movies. And not even like scary movies. Movies that like, if I was to watch them now, I'd be like, oh, that this is actually not a scary movie. Movies like Congo. I was terrified as a kid of Congo. I did not want to watch it. And I remember, uh, because what would happen is whenever my cousins and my mom would take me to a movie, whenever the scary part would start, you know, r ratcheting up, I would stand up in the middle of the theater, and then people behind me would be like, get the kid to sit down. And then I, but I would stand up and then I would stand up for about ten, fifteen seconds, and then walk out to the aisle, and then walk up the aisle and just stand in the back of the theater till this part is over, and then I would return to my seat.

And that was how I watched these films. And to this day, I still do a similar thing where I put my hand in my ears. And the reason that I turned the sound off is because one of the second times that I did this, one of the very kind teenage movie attendants, like it was almost like it was almost out of a scary movie because he like appeared like I was in the back of the theater and all of a sudden this like movie attendant like comes around the corner from the shadows and he's like, Hey kid, you know what makes it scary is the sound. So if you plug your ears, it won't be scary anymore. And then he just wanders off like a fucking ghost.

[5:50] Alex Smolowe: But it's true. The what the ghost attendant said is true. Your life has been shaped by a creepy teenager stalking around a dark movie theater talking to little children.

[6:03] Nik Walker: Yeah.

[6:06] Alex Smolowe: I got it. Yes. Now I understand your relationship to horror movies because you have lived in one.

[6:11] Nik Walker: Because I absolutely lived in one. But it's so true. So you know, half of what makes horror movies horrifying are the sounds, and when you have a horror movie that has a good soundscape, I was just like, okay. There was a big climax about, you know, 30 minutes, 40 minutes into the movie, and after that moment I was like, let me watch it without sound for a little while. And then I turned it back on and I did it.

[6:34] Alex Smolowe: Did it work?

[6:35] Nik Walker: Oh yeah, it was less scary. It's actually you should try it. Try it with not a horror movie you know.

[6:40] Alex Smolowe: Well, I see I'm an adult person, like I can get through a horror movie.

[6:43] Nik Walker: Yeah, I don't want to. I don't wanna do that.

[6:45] Alex Smolowe: And get to the other side. I don't know if you know this, but people are dying every fucking day. I don't want to subject myself to too much insanity. The world is insane enough. However, well, so yeah, so that brings me to the point of horror movies are really built to make you feel uncomfortable, right? There's like this human innate drive to want to be scared. And I'm I wonder why that is. Do people like it because it pumps their adrenaline?

[7:11] Nik Walker: I think it's adrenaline. I all I would also I'm sure there's a lot of analysis of this, you know, on videos. Please, by the way, if you find these analysis videos, tweet them at us at Little Justice Pod, you know, on the Twitter. Uh L-I-L-J-U-S-T-I-C-E pod. Gotta plug it there. Little just you know, I also think that on top of this, um, this neat this adrenaline rush that we get is like the idea that like, you know, on a good horror movie, you put yourself into someone's shoes. You know, horror movies are actually the best at building empathy for their central character because the entire conceit of a horror movie works on the premise that you identify with whoever you're following through this movie, right?

Because when they're scared, you're scared. So it actually creates a lot of empathy with a character, and horror movie scripts have to be really, really good to do that. But you're able to go through something terrifying and walk away. You know, that I think so I think it's not only the adrenaline rush, it's like a way to kind of dip your toe into danger without actually being drinking.

[8:11] Alex Smolowe: Right. The idea of conquering something, yeah, with a safe exit.

[8:15] Nik Walker: Because there always is a safe exit, right? Like you're watching a movie and you know, you know that there's no ghost in your house. You know that you're not gonna die. I mean, you kind of know. You're gonna walk away from this experience. So maybe there's some kind of like subconscious need to like survive something.

[8:30] Alex Smolowe: I think there is. I think we love feeling alive. I think we love feeling alive, and I think horror movies help us do that. And it's interesting to what to historically to track horror movies through time. I took a course in college, a film history course about horror movies, and every week you show up and we would watch a different horror movie from a different decade and kind of track the evolution of horror movies from the beginning. And it's so interesting to look at what comes out during different social points in the history of the world. Yeah like what kind of horror people are attracted to. I'll be curious to see what comes out of this year specifically because it brings out people's fears like what are people really afraid of?

You know, the 50s and 60s had this whole like nuclear bomb end of the world stuff going on. Um the 80s got us Candyman. Um, you know, I'll be curious to see with quarantine and everything like what really people are gonna need to face.

[9:29] Nik Walker: Well, it's interesting because so many of the horror movies that have come out recently right have been in some way reflective, you know, we call them, you know, somebody said social justice horror movies, right? In that they're speaking of not only the Jordan Peele movies but also like the Invisible Man. It extends to even like slasher movies, right? Like Scream resonated with a time because it was a very comfortable suburban and the idea of somebody with a knife coming into your house and killing you on some level resonated with the culture. Even though it's a dumb slasher movie it resonates on some level it has to and like that's not scary anymore. You know, they try to reboot Halloween and all these movies a million times and it doesn't work quite as well because we are not scared of it anymore. You know this unknown factor because we know everything with the internet.

[10:17] Alex Smolowe: Well and to your point I think what we don't know right now is ourselves. I think that that is the way that Jordan Peele has been able to get away with what he's done is because he is looking at us as a country, you know the movie Us and Get Out and all his, you know, all his other stuff, and it's and especially the movie that I chose that I should not have chosen. One of the things that I was like sh just struck by was like how much of a self-reflection it was, how much of like it was truly one of those movies, you know, it comes from a long line of movies before it that have similar plots, but the way this movie was done, I was like, oh no, this is something this is this is very much about societal reflection.

[10:57] Nik Walker: And I yeah it was so let's talk about the difference then between a regular horror movie and the worst one to specifically at 2 a.m.

[10:57] Alex Smolowe: At 2 a.m. What do you think it is?

[11:10] Nik Walker: So I mean, horror movies work on different levels, right? And the movie I picked made me realize the difference between a movie that's built entirely to scare you and a movie that's built to track a story. There are horror movies that you follow from beginning to end, it's all about the mood, and it's all about just trying to get you in a place where they can pop things out and scare you, and then there's some resolution at the end. There's other horror movies where you kind of get emotionally attached and there's horror involved. I think I haven't seen it since it was in theaters, but the movie Mama did that really well. I remember where like it builds to this huge climax and like the horror tends to fade away by the end because you're so invested in the characters and what's going on. And those movies tend to be quote unquote better movies because you come out feeling like you've experienced an arc.

[11:56] Alex Smolowe: Yes.

[11:57] Nik Walker: But at 2 a.m., a movie like that, like you're not really even if it's not shooting things out at you every 15 minutes, you know, you're gonna get tired because it's so late. So I think a really good 2 a.m. movie is one that like can push and pull you constantly.

[12:15] Alex Smolowe: Yes, yes, and that and keeps you on the edge of your seat.

[12:20] Nik Walker: Mm-hmm. I think something that really I think the, you know, just going back to like the basics of it, I think it's probably something that takes place at night. Because that's the other part of it too. Like, you want to watch this movie and you want to feel like this could be happening outside your home right now or inside your home right now. And also I think that there's something, you know, the 2 a.m. movie, I think supernatural bests anything.

[12:42] Alex Smolowe: Oh, I think so, yeah.

[12:43] Nik Walker: You know what I mean? Because I think that it has to come from a place of is it real, is it not real? And that's the question of that I've seen with, you know, the few horror movies that I've watched so far with the supernatural ones, it's like the best ones are is it real or is it not?

[12:56] Alex Smolowe: At 2 a.m., I want to know exactly, you know, if I feel a hand on my foot, I want to know that that's the prostitute that I hired, you know, at 11. You know what I mean? Just waking me up to you. Let me know he's going home. You know what I mean? Like that's you want to know that that it's the theater attendant checking in on the nine-year-old. On the nine-year-old. The more that I think about that story, the more I'm like, wow. There's such trauma. Do you need you need to talk about it? Do we need to find you somebody to talk about that experience? I just had therapy yesterday. Like I'm so good. But yeah, man, I think I think that's I think that's a huge part of it. So, you know, definitely a movie that keeps you engaged, definitely a movie that is supernatural, definitely a movie that takes place in a similar scenario to the one you're in while you're watching it.

Do you think something that takes place in someone's house is gonna be scarier than somebody, you know? Yeah, because I think I just think I think it even if it just centers around or comes to a home at some point. Yeah, that is your safe space, and all of a sudden it's showing the movie is showing you that your safe space is not safe. That scared the shit out of me. Golly damn, dude. I'm sorry. Well, you wanna you wanna line it up? I'll line it up, dude. And I think you're gonna get it, because uh, you know, if you're a horror movie aficionada, you should you should get this pretty quickly. Because this this movie changed the game in a lot officially not. So fuck. I don't even want to think about this movie right now.

Fuck. You can do it. We're here for you. The entire listening audience is here to to get you through this experience. Thank you, guys. Thank you. So fuck you! Oh, fuck you. Dude, my fucking mic just went in the red because I s I jumped so low. You're a fucking bitch. I'll kill ya. I'll goddamn kill you. So the uh so we open on a on a title card, it's a black screen, and then fades up in some white lettering, and it's a eulogy. It's a it's obituary, and it's talking about a woman who just died. Then from that, there's some more creepy ass music. It fades up, fades up, fades up, fades up. You hear uh the first thing you hear, by the way, is a clicking sound. Weird clicking sound. You're not sure what the fuck that is.

And then now we're pushing in, we're in a home, but we're pushing in on another home in this home. A doll's house. Stop it, Alex. God damn you. God damn your ASMR bullshit. Do you know what movie it is yet? I think I do. Yeah. Pushing in this doll's house, which has a lot of detail to it, and we see there's a young man laying in a bed, but this is not a doll young man, it's a real young man. His father comes in to the bedroom carrying a black suit. Come on, Peter, it's time to get up. You know, Peter, this yah, this high school age kid is like resisting getting up, but he's gonna get up anyway. Wake up. Father goes out to a tree house where a young girl is sleeping. Uh she slept her whole night.

He's like, hey, come on. You know, first of all, don't be sleeping in the tree house. This late, it's you know, it's cold. But you also have to wonder how the how the fuck did the father not know that his like 10-year-old daughter was asleep. It was not in her bed, it was in this treehouse. How did he not know that? Whatever. They go to this goddamn funeral. The mother gives this very interesting eulogy. She talks about how she didn't really know her mother and uh kept her at a distance, and she was actually kind of surprised to see all these people here. The daughter is meanwhile drawing in a notepad. You can't tell if it's a picture of the mother, or if it's a picture of the grandmother who's it's an open casket funeral.

But there's like a foreboding sense, like even at the funeral, you just feel eyes watching. Like the little girl is at the casket, and there's a guy in the corner, and he just smiles her to this creepy ass smile. And, you know, they go through a day, but uh the what I'll what I'll what I'll draw to a close where I'll bring the title in is when the mother later is in her workshop, the mother, you know, builds these doll houses, you find out. And uh she's closing up for the night, and all of a sudden she just she's just walking around in the workshop, and you just see her fucking mother standing there in the goddamn room with her, smiling. Like, and you bar you don't even know if she's smiling, it's just so fucking faint. Of course, this movie is hereditary.

[17:38] Nik Walker: You know you were her favorite, right? Even when you're a little baby, she wouldn't let me feed you because she needed to feed you. Crazy. She wanted me to be a boy. You know, I was a tomboy when I was growing up. I hated dresses and dolls and pink. Who's gonna take care of me? Um, excuse me, you don't think I'm gonna take care of you? But when you die. Why I'm pro I'm proud of you, Alex. Watching it. Alex, I I'm proud of you for deciding that this is the movie that you were gonna watch, and then sitting down and even if you weren't watching it with sound. Here's what I'm gonna say straight up. One of the best acted movies of that year. And I I hadn't seen it. I hadn't seen it before this, but truly I Yeah, I th I think it was.

I remember really enjoying it. I think I think Ari Aster is a really he also did midsummer. Um the witch. He's an exciting no, he didn't no, no, no. That's that's different. I like I like that guy more. Really? I don't remember his name. Dave Eggers. Eggers, Dave Eggers. You're right, you're right, right. Yeah, yeah, no, Ari Astor did hereditary and midsummer and Dave Eggers did uh The Witch and The Lighthouse. I think what Aster does well and what Hereditary does really well is it's it's subtle horror, right? It's very psychological. It sets this mood, and you never really trust what you're looking at. And it it's it's built on getting you so connected with the characters that little slight adjustments to to the reality of their situations, it work really well, right?

Like little stuff that wouldn't work if you didn't care about the characters or understand the characters, and then every now and then there's these explosive moments, uh, like the car accident where it just everything just flips on its ass and shakes you up a little bit. But um so had you seen this movie before?

[19:39] Alex Smolowe: No, I had never seen it before. And speaking to the car accident, I think that that's what the movie does so you like you said, right? So much of this movie are slow pans and and and and he plays with your line of sight so well. He he plays with the foreground or the background so well and the foreground, but he'll have you focusing on one thing, and then the scare will come from someplace completely different. And you'll have sat with that one thing for so long that you're truly waiting for that one thing to pop off. Like, like it's it's these kind of double whammy scares that are just too much. Like, like in so the car, this is spoilers, spoiler work, spoiler alert for anybody who's listening.

But that fucking car scene, you know, that so the kid, you know, the the brother uh goes to a party with the sister lies, says he's going to like a pep rally, but is really going to a school party. And the mother, there's like a whole thing. The mother allowed her 10-year-old, you know, or small child to go with her high school or to a party, which is a problem in itself. But um, you know, she goes there, uh, eats something with nuts, has goes into anaphylactic shock, cannot breathe. This poor little girl. The brother is high as fuck, gets in a car to get her home. They're on the road, they're driving fast. He sees a fucking deer, swerves, sh her head gets fucking decapitated. And it happens so fast, and he is just in such fucking shock.

Her head was sticking out the window and it's gone. Just gone. And he just and he drives home and it's completely calm. But like, you know, uh the shots of shock that they were able to capture that they chose to put in, and like you're just sitting with him, and then he just goes to bed. The motherfucker just goes to bed, leaves this headless body in the car for the mother to find the next day. And this is actually based off a true story, believe it or not. Um really, yeah, where two friends it wasn't it wasn't a guy and his sister, but it was a guy and a friend were partying and they got high and they were driving home, and the guy had his head at the window, and it you know, his head got fucking cut off by like a signpost or some shit, and then the guy kept driving and like was just in shut shock that he just left the body in the car.

[21:44] Nik Walker: Yeah. Like I mean, I I think that I think it does it explores shock really well in that sense. Because like shock is like one, it's one big thing, and then kind of this like quiet echo for a long time, right? Where where but before like the reality of consequences set in, before anything, there's like a a blankness, right? Where where like sound sounds different and the world, the light works different. And this does that work because it takes a really long time for someone to find the girl's body, and you're just you're waiting for it, and you're following him, and he's really calm, and and you feel really uncomfortable knowing exactly, you know, oh, there's a decapitated's like dead in the car, like, and you're just sitting there waiting and waiting, and then he falls asleep and wakes up and you're waiting, and it's just like I think it explores that really well. His other movie, Midsummer, does like tripping on on acid.

[22:34] Alex Smolowe: Oh god, yeah. The whole movie they're all tripping on acid, and it does this really like the whole it's it's horror, but it's bright outside, and everybody, you know, and and the the little the little nuances of what that experience not that I would know, but the of of what that experience is, where it's not shoving it down your throat, it's just letting you be there, and it's slowly degrading and and warping and it makes it problematic because you realize that any any scenario can be a scary scenario if you just let it settle. That's what the movie does so well is these slow fucking shots, these slow fucking shots, and and the things that that pop out at you aren't even popping, it's not like boo.

They're just standing there. They're just standing there and they're doing their thing. And then so that when something fast does happen, and like like the you know, the the again spoilers, but the final sequence. So what you find out is there's a demon that the dead grandmother has invoked. Because the whole movie, by by the way, let me slow down. The whole movie, I think the true brilliance of the movie is that it really is about generational trauma and the inheritance of generational trauma. So you have a m you know, the the mother played brilliantly by Tony Colette is from the very beginning kind of unsure about her mother who's just passed, rejecting in a lot of ways her mother who just passed, and the son who is also played brilliantly by Alex Wolf, who is the young kid in fucking Jumanji, by the way.

[23:57] Nik Walker: Um the new Jumanji, the one he's the kid that that that turns into the rock in the game. Please keep your eye out for him because I just I'm gonna say it here now, this kid is the real fucking deal. I was like, god damn kid. I'm just jumping all over the place now, but my mind is still addled from this movie. This there's a scene, um, so let me slow down again. The you know, the the grandmother invokes this demon, and the you know, the demon is trying to find a host, and the host is supposed to be the son, so it's all about kind of tracking this demon as it kind of inches closer to getting inside the sun. At one point, it, you know, it the climax of the movie, it gets into Tony Colette, she goes off, she is running around chasing this kid, terrifying.

There's a the most heartbreaking scene he's in, you know, he she it chases him into the attic, and he's in the attic and the door is locked, and he's just like it's like heartbreaking because this kid's just being chased by his mother and he just doesn't understand what the fuck she's doing. And meanwhile, you the shot of her, the now famous shot where she's like on all fours on the ceiling of the at you know, like on the attic door, like banging her head furiously against the attic door. It is oh my god, dude.

[25:14] Alex Smolowe: Um and then and then, of course, the fucking PIS de Resistance. So he, you know, he he gets in the attic and he discovers this is all a fucking cult, and he sees the you know the decapitated head of his sister and all this bullshit. Yeah, talk to me a little bit about about the ending, because I uh I was talking about a movie like Mama that it it answers it, it answers the question of its own mythology in a way um that's satisfying and hereditary to me did did not. Hereditary to me used supernatural and and creepy as an out for a story that wasn't quite totally developed.

[25:57] Nik Walker: What is the thesis of the film?

[26:00] Alex Smolowe: Generational trauma and the fact that you can't outrun your parents.

[26:04] Nik Walker: That's literally what it is. You truly write like Tony, the first image of the film, which I think is so brilliant, is the dollhouse. And again, you realize that Toni Collette's character who's trying to push away from her mother builds these dollhouses, right? That's what she does. She, in intricate detail, recreates scenes from her life with these dollhouses, and you very quickly get the implication that this is a form of control for her. This is her way of having some sort of grip on a world that she feels is slipping out of her grasp, even though she is trying to run away from a trauma. She has put that control on her son, right? She's trying to control his life, and he's pushing away from her. And so it's this cycle of generational trauma and control. You get traumatized, so you look for control, and you pass it down constantly.

[26:59] Alex Smolowe: So I think that the ending, you know, again, spoilers for the third time, he said, the demon ends up taking over the son. It does catch the son, and it's very sad because you feel so bad for this fuck. He's had the worst couple of weeks in his life, and you're just like, oh, you poor boy. But it's also, I mean, it's the truth of it, which is like you really can't escape these things. Now, what you do to heal it, you know, I think is the original sin the movie is pointing towards, right? None of these people actually try to reconcile with their trauma; they just try to push it away. And that's what happens when you push it away, is it controls you.

[27:39] Nik Walker: And you know, the mother, I mean, God, like Toni Collette's character's death in this fucking movie is probably the scariest moment of the film.

[27:50] Alex Smolowe: I don't recall actually.

[27:51] Nik Walker: You don't recall her levitating above her son and cutting her own head off with piano wire? You don't recall that?

[27:57] Alex Smolowe: No, it's just another Tuesday for me.

[27:59] Nik Walker: Alex, you fucking asshole. I guess that movie, like, by the time it gets to the end, I just remember being exhausted by it.

[28:07] Alex Smolowe: It's terrifying.

[28:08] Nik Walker: Yeah, and I don't, I'm recalling it now, yeah, that might have happened.

[28:14] Alex Smolowe: Let me just say again, Toni Collette cuts off her own head with piano wire while staring blankly into the eyes of her son.

[28:26] Nik Walker: That is how the movie ends, and the movie's not even over. That's maybe seven minutes away from the ending of the movie. The movie continues after that moment.

[28:36] Alex Smolowe: Dude.

[28:37] Nik Walker: Oh my god.

[28:39] Alex Smolowe: I vaguely remember now.

[28:40] Nik Walker: And that's the thing, right? When you have a movie that is well-paced, that is well-structured, you know, even if your ending is a little ambiguous.

[28:49] Alex Smolowe: Well, so the real ending, so then he goes out to the tree house, right? The one where we first find his sister.

[28:54] Nik Walker: Yes.

[28:54] Alex Smolowe: And there's like 18 old naked people in there.

[28:58] Nik Walker: The cult.

[28:59] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, the cult. His grandmother's cult.

[29:02] Nik Walker: And I don't know. To me, it just seemed like why? Well, it just tried to get bigger and bigger and bigger and end on this like pulling you deeper and deeper into it. The implication was stretched.

[29:15] Alex Smolowe: To me, the implication was that this is something that his, you know, his grandmother's control was never relinquished, even in death. This was all planned. Killing the daughter was planned. Everything that happened was part of a larger plan, and this was something that he could not escape.

[29:28] Nik Walker: Interesting.

[29:29] Alex Smolowe: And, you know, because again, he goes into this room, he sees the naked people, he sees all these fucking effigies, and then the light switches over him, and the demon is taken over, and he clicks his tongue. And they say, "Hail payment, hail payment."

[29:44] Nik Walker: Okay, this is the—and then by the way, ladies and gentlemen, if you ever want to know when shit is gonna get worse before it gets better, if Ann Dowd is in your movie.

[29:51] Alex Smolowe: If Ann, if just in general, if Ann Dowd is in your movie, unless your movie's Walk Hard.

[29:58] Nik Walker: Yeah, if Ann Dowd shows up in your life.

[30:01] Alex Smolowe: Well, no, that's what's her name. That's Margot Martindale.

[30:03] Nik Walker: And I always get them confused because Margot and Ann are not the same.

[30:08] Alex Smolowe: They're not the same.

[30:09] Nik Walker: Ann Dowd and Margot Martindale are two, and they're both brilliant actresses.

[30:13] Alex Smolowe: I'm literally looking at Ann Dowd's picture. I'm like, no, that's her.

[30:16] Nik Walker: But it's not. It's Margot Martindale.

[30:18] Alex Smolowe: Yeah.

[30:19] Nik Walker: And I only know that because Margot Martindale is one of my—if you Google Margot Martindale, the first thing on Google that it fills in is Margot Martindale and Dowd.

[30:27] Alex Smolowe: I know.

[30:28] Nik Walker: They literally, they're very similar in picture them together.

[30:33] Alex Smolowe: And they've actually played very—wow.

[30:35] Nik Walker: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Isn't that crazy? Like, very easy mistake.

[30:39] Alex Smolowe: My mind is blown.

[30:40] Nik Walker: Yeah.

[30:41] Alex Smolowe: Very easy mistake.

[30:42] Nik Walker: So, how did you feel when you get to this point? Because this is a movie that descends, right?

[30:47] Alex Smolowe: Yes.

[30:48] Nik Walker: Yes. It's a slow descent into madness.

[30:51] Alex Smolowe: Very slow descent into madness.

[30:53] Nik Walker: So it's late at night. You're getting more tired. You're getting—you're like, physically, right? The trauma of the first half of the movie has left you in a way. So, like, do you think that shaped how you experienced the ending?

[31:05] Alex Smolowe: Yeah.

[31:06] Nik Walker: Oh, I, by the end, I was like, I just want this. Like, I was just like, I can't do this anymore. I literally, and it wasn't like a I have to turn the movie off. I was like, well, we're gonna finish this shit. But I also, as soon as the movie was over, you know, I had to fucking turn out the lights and go back to my fucking bed.

[31:23] Alex Smolowe: And there's all these—and like half of the movie's scares are people hiding in shadowy corners of your home when the lights are off. So it was like, fuck you. And like I almost punched my cat because he was like, "Meah," shut the fuck up.

[31:32] Nik Walker: Shut the fuck up, Ferris. You don't know what I'm going through right now. I'm sorry, I love my cat. He's my best friend. But goddamn, it was terrifying.

[31:45] Alex Smolowe: So yeah, but you know, but in answer to your question, by the end of it, yeah, I just felt like there was just so much imagery that I had seen that I really—and to be honest with you, it didn't take me too long to fall asleep. I was like, I was like out. I was like, nope, done. We're going to bed.

[32:01] Nik Walker: And I put on—you, we were texting each other laughing, like, it's time for some Always Sunny after this.

[32:05] Alex Smolowe: I actually put on like the opposite of this, which is like I watched this YouTube channel called Townsend's, which is this guy who makes 18th century cooking. He's like this basically the Mr. Rogers of the 18th century.

[32:17] Nik Walker: Yeah, and so he was like, today we're gonna learn how to make succotash.

[32:22] Alex Smolowe: We're gonna make corn succotash. And I was like, Great, teach me how to make succotash, sir.

[32:28] Nik Walker: The anti-horror is corn succotash.

[32:31] Alex Smolowe: Fucking bowlock, 18th century corn succotash.

[32:33] Nik Walker: So yeah, and then he turned and looked into the screen and started talking to you directly.

[32:37] Alex Smolowe: And then I said, absolutely not. Good night. Bye.

[32:40] Nik Walker: Goodbye.

[32:41] Alex Smolowe: But seriously though, I will say, if you're just looking for a good—like, I really do believe it's just such a well-done film.

[32:48] Nik Walker: It's, yeah.

[32:49] Alex Smolowe: And I liked it better. If Midsommar is your only introduction to Ari Aster, Hereditary is very different.

[32:56] Nik Walker: Better in my opinion.

[32:58] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, please watch. I haven't watched Midsommar all the way through. I've only watched clips, so I have to do that next.

[33:04] Nik Walker: But yeah, you kind of need to watch Midsommar all the way through to get it.

[33:08] Alex Smolowe: It's a very slow burn into madness.

[33:10] Nik Walker: And it doesn't use shadows; it doesn't use any—it literally, like, you just start to go crazy as you're watching it.

[33:17] Alex Smolowe: It seems like it's a very similar setup in a way to—

[33:17] Nik Walker: It is, yeah.

[33:22] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, and the whole thing, it's a—you know, I think he describes it as a breakup movie. Like, the whole thing is about ending a relationship and power and control in a real relationship.

[33:32] Nik Walker: Which, like, yeah, it fits, it works, and it's good, but it's not Hereditary.

[33:39] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[33:41] Nik Walker: So, you know, I watched—

[33:41] Alex Smolowe: Proud of you.

[33:46] Nik Walker: I'm proud of you. I'm never doing that shit again.

[33:47] Alex Smolowe: This was—next we'll do worst movie to watch at 3 a.m.

[33:51] Nik Walker: Listen, you know what? I was actually thinking about that. I was like, because that's kind of the natural sequel to this is at some point we do a 3 a.m. like what's the—like when you're even more tired, what's the worst movie tomorrow?

[34:01] Alex Smolowe: So I actually wouldn't be down for that, but this was terrible for 2 a.m.

[34:05] Nik Walker: So fuck you, Hereditary.

[34:08] Alex Smolowe: Oh, hey, hey, hey.

[34:11] Nik Walker: It's alright.

[34:13] Alex Smolowe: Charlie, you're alright now.

[34:17] Nik Walker: You are Payman.

[34:21] Alex Smolowe: One of the eight kings of hell.

[34:30] Nik Walker: Hell Payman!

[34:33] Alex Smolowe: Hell Payman!

[34:36] Nik Walker: Hell Payman!

[34:40] Alex Smolowe: Hell.

[34:49] Nik Walker: Alright.

[34:50] Alex Smolowe: This one, this one you'll get.

[34:52] Nik Walker: This one everybody knows.

[34:54] Alex Smolowe: So my original choice was—

[34:54] Nik Walker: Your original choice was It Follows.

[34:59] Alex Smolowe: Similar kind of movie, actually, to—I mean, completely different from Hereditary, but that same kind of, you know, slow burn, it's coming for you.

[35:08] Nik Walker: My original movie was Paranormal Activity, which I thought just because it's in your house, it's things happening to you at night, it worked really well.

[35:19] Alex Smolowe: The style of it and the little—it's the little things that get you.

[35:24] Nik Walker: I went a different direction now as I thought I was scrolling through all the horror movies I could find in my collection, and there was one that I just—I kept going past, like I'm not gonna watch that. Like there's no way. Like I'll find something easier to swallow. And I kept coming back to it saying like I really don't want to watch this right now.

[35:41] Alex Smolowe: Yep.

[35:41] Nik Walker: I thought that there has to be—there has to be a reason that this is the one movie, even though I've seen it a couple times already, it affects me physically to think about putting this on, putting headphones on, turning off the lights, and watching this right now.

[35:54] Nik Walker: Fuck you.

[35:54] Alex Smolowe: Fuck you.

[35:54] Nik Walker: Terrible.

[35:54] Alex Smolowe: So I was like, alright, that's the one.

[36:06] Alex Smolowe: They're talking—one girl is talking to the other about the, you know, the electromagnetic waves in the air and how dangerous they are.

[36:07] Nik Walker: Okay.

[36:07] Alex Smolowe: Two girls watching TV.

[36:13] Nik Walker: These movies suck.

[36:15] Alex Smolowe: I heard there's so many.

[36:16] Nik Walker: And they eventually get to the topic of a VHS tape.

[36:20] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, about this tape.

[36:22] Nik Walker: I have not heard about this tape, and I don't want to hear it.

[36:24] Alex Smolowe: You haven't heard about it?

[36:25] Nik Walker: I haven't heard about it.

[36:27] Alex Smolowe: If you watch it, stop it.

[36:29] Nik Walker: It'll show you in seven days.

[36:32] Alex Smolowe: I don't like that voice, and I don't like the tape.

[36:34] Nik Walker: Nobody likes the voice or the tape.

[36:36] Alex Smolowe: It's a terrible voice in the terrible—

[36:37] Nik Walker: You don't even need any more setup for The Ring.

[37:03] Alex Smolowe: So, what I love about this movie, and it has fallen into the same annals as, you know, as Scream, these movies from that era of like jump scare. For whatever reason, all these movies start with teenage girls in their own house.

[37:20] Nik Walker: But this one, this one's different.

[37:22] Alex Smolowe: This one is wholly built around its style, right? Its main character is pretty uninteresting.

[37:32] Nik Walker: The story—there is no story outside of the scariness, right?

[37:40] Alex Smolowe: There is no real deeper, you know, there's little things about parenthood and about this stuff, but it's literally just there to support the creepiness of everything that's happening.

[37:50] Nik Walker: So it's following Naomi Watts's character, Rachel, whose niece is one of the girls in the opening scene who has admitted that she watched this videotape and ends up dying.

[38:02] Alex Smolowe: And Naomi Watts, Rachel has to figure it out, right? She's curious, she hears from the friends about it. Turns out they all, you know, she had snuck away to go on a weekend trip with her friends. All the friends who watch the tape, they're all dead now.

[38:18] Nik Walker: Don't even.

[38:20] Alex Smolowe: What tape?

[38:21] Nik Walker: The one that kills you when you watch it.

[38:23] Alex Smolowe: Oh, please.

[38:25] Nik Walker: What was on the tape?

[38:28] Alex Smolowe: I haven't seen it, obviously.

[38:30] Nik Walker: So she goes to investigate, ends up watching the tape, and is given, you know, the phone rings, and she's given this seven day, you know.

[38:36] Alex Smolowe: If you don't know The Ring by now, I can't help you.

[38:39] Nik Walker: But from the get-go, what makes this just like—even just talking about it, you're like, oh no, like no, I'm not gonna watch this.

[38:48] Alex Smolowe: Cause every single scene is rotten.

[38:52] Nik Walker: Every single scene, without doing anything, you just know that's that something creepy, something crazy, something like bigger than you is waiting there, right? The characters exist in this universe where this like universe of darkness, right? And it doesn't even matter where it comes from. Is there ever sunlight in the entire the whole time it's dark, the whole time it's raining. Every time she's outside, even during the day, they pump all of this fog and mist. And everything is soaked and damp, and it's joyless. It is completely joyless, and it's contrasted by Naomi Watts, who's just like the most beautiful person you've ever seen in your life, who's very confident, who's very whatever, who's just thrust into this situation that she really, really wants to solve.

And you understand that it's like right from the beginning, we're just living in hell, basically. You know, like it doesn't matter what happens because everybody's involved. Every single character we talk to, we approach is somehow involved in this craziness. So we come to find out, you know, there's a little girl, Samara, who was adopted by this woman who lived on an island with her and her husband, and it turns out the little girl is evil. You know, it's the same, oh, little girl's evil, and you have to, you know, defeat the little evil girl. Defeat the little evil girl. Defeat the little evil evil girl. You find out that she had been like hidden away in the barn by her dad to try to spare the mother who was being driven insane by her.

Of course. And eventually the mother, the mother takes her to this well out in the middle of the woods and kills her and throws her in. Or thinks she kills her to throws her in, but she survives down in the well for seven days.

[40:40] Nik Walker: All I ever wanted was you. Oh, P.S. funny story. So I did a show called The Last Goodbye at the Old Globe. And it was Romeo and Juliet mixed with the music of Jeff Buckley. Really good show. My friend Michael Kemmel wrote it and put together it was really just like a truly awesome thing. The woman who played Lady Capulet was an incredible, incredible actress. We are, you know, when you do a regional show, they house you in like kind of almost like these like dorms, but like really they have you know, they have like apartments or an apartment building they'll have. My apartment was always below hers, so I would always go down there and like we just talk about like her career, and she would make Moscow mules, and we would just sit and like drink and like chat, and it was really nice.

She just loves the lady, but like every time I saw her, I was like, you really like there's something about you like that, you just creep me out, just fucking creep me out. I don't know what it is. And then finally I was sitting there, like one of our one of the things like the night before we opened the show, sitting there with her just drinking Moscow Mule, and I was like, you're the fucking lady from the ring, you're the goddamn mother, and sure enough, it was yeah, Shannon Cochran.

[41:45] Alex Smolowe: No way, and I was like, oh my fucking god, you terrified the shit out of me.

[41:52] Nik Walker: So you're you sat down in a basement in the middle of the night with the mother from the ring.

[41:58] Alex Smolowe: Uh that's accurate.

[42:01] Nik Walker: Accurate. That's fucking terrifying. I was like, I for so long, because she's such a nice person. She's like an amazing actor and such a nice person.

[42:09] Alex Smolowe: Yeah.

[42:09] Nik Walker: I was like, why? Why do I feel unsafe with that's that's why. I mean, even to this day, right? This movie came out in 2002. This was a very long time. It was almost 20 years ago this movie came out. As soon as someone says, like creepy little girl, this is the movie. Like the girl from the ring is still like a cultural identity of a thought. Yep. All the hair over the face and pulling hair out of the mouth. Like all these tropes that have since been beaten to death by, you know, the who's that guy. Oh, and my wife is standing there with her hair over her face. Nope. That's actually pretty scary, babe. Yep. Tell her to pull her hair back. Please pull your hair back for the good of the pod. For the good of the pod. Um god damn it. It's just that it's the whole movie's just built on visual torture.

[42:59] Alex Smolowe: Yeah.

[42:59] Nik Walker: I mean, I'm trying to I'm trying to think, like, as a 2 a.m. movie, I think I chose it because it doesn't engage on a deeper level than just trying to keep you down in hell with it. Like, it doesn't try to tell a deeper story. There's there's not like a bigger thing. Even when you think you get to the end, and you think that things have resolved, and you're like, okay, that's like, yeah, I see the arc of the movie. And then probably the scariest moment in the whole movie to me is she's laying on the bed with her son. You know, she's she's better now. She's helped the girl. She went down the well and helped the girl come out. Don't you have to be at work? Not today. What happened to the girl?

Samara. Is that a name? Mm-hmm. Is she still in the dark place? No. We set her free. You helped her. Yeah. Why did you do that? And you just like, I'm getting chills just like thinking about it. You realize, oh shit, no, everything's not better. Everything is actually way worse. Like we thought we were out. Past every scene where where you're just you'd want it to end, and you finally get this conclusion, and then you realize, no, it's about to get worse than before.

[44:23] Nik Walker: I just I just uh it's really and like anything smart to say about it. I just it was it was truly the first, you know, because what what year was this that this came out the ring? 2002. 2002. So this was right on the heels of Blair Witch, which was ninety-eight, I believe, or ninety nine. And you know, Blair Witch, you know, was was Blair which is really if you watch it back, it's like a study intention, right? It's like because nothing happens in Blair Witch. Truly, nothing happens. But it's the expectation that something is going to happen. And the way they were able to build that. So I think this movie almost I I I almost see a world where they like, you know, they were still kind of on that track of running with that, but you know, they kind of combined the best of a you know, and granted, this because this was a remake, right?

Ringu was it was, yes, right? Um, but I think it's like, yeah, you take take the take certain elements of a slasher film where you have you have a specific monster that you see that is tangible, it is coming to get you. But even then, isn't the first time you see the m like the girl crawl like you know, do things is when it kills Scott Summers, right?

[45:27] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, the so the the first time, I mean the only time really that the the girl herself actually does something is at the very end when when you know Scott Summers plays the ex-husband of Naomi Watts' character, you know, and he has this dope loft oh in Manhattan. Oh yeah, like whatever city they're in Portland or wherever this amazing creative loft. And his T V turns on and and the well and and I think what this movie does really well is it plays with its repeating imagery but changing things each time you see it. Right. So you watch the tape a million times and every time it extends a little bit and they get to the end of the in the middle of the movie they get to the end of the tape and there's a shot of the well and the first time you see it it's just the well and then it cuts.

The second time you see it it's the well and you see a hand come out and now this time it finishes right the well is there and the girl who you have seen now crawls out and then she walks forward and then she crawls out of the TV.

[46:19] Nik Walker: Well also well it's it's 'cause it's what they show you and it's what they don't. It's it's that thing of like 'cause even then you still don't see what she does to Scott Summers. You just see his corpse later.

[46:29] Alex Smolowe: Hey guys, it's me. Um as an aside, Nick keeps referring to this actor as Scott Summers. So the actor is actually Martin Henderson. I looked it up and the best I can tell is Scott Summers is the pedestrian name of the X Men's Cyclops.

[46:45] Nik Walker: And also it sets you up because by the end of the movie you have watched the tape. So like now you gotta wait seven days to see what the fuck's gonna happen to you. Right. Like sends the audience out to like And and to their credit they don't really push that. 'Cause they could be like they could make that really obvious like you have watched the tape. Like the kid could say some line at the end like, what about who well oh no you know what he does say that at the end actually. I take that back. Uh what about the people we show it to? Yep, exactly. You know, oh, it doesn't it doesn't matter. We're safe now. 'Cause the the idea is you don't die if you copy the tape and show it to someone else.

[47:27] Alex Smolowe: Oh my god.

[47:25] Nik Walker: Um which is insane. I I and I mean going back, like I the I think what this film does the best is the visual play, right?

[47:35] Alex Smolowe: Yeah.

[47:35] Nik Walker: It really does take this repeating the stud the ladder and the lighthouse and the tree and the everything. It all kind of comes full circle and makes sense within the story of the supernatural, and they start it from the very beginning. So like there's really not one character or object or anything introduced that does not matter, that does not pull you in. So you become to you you come to feel very familiar with everything going on, and then they and then they subvert it a little bit and they twist it, they mutilate it. Um and it makes you feel like that the thing that you think you finally have a grasp on, you don't. The genius thing when she's looking at the tape, and on in in the the video, there's a fly, right?

That you think like, oh, it's on the camera or whatever, and there's that genius moment, she's copying the tape, and she pauses it, the video's paused, and the fly's wing is twitching, and then she reaches out and picks it off the TV, and you're like, oh, like this is this is more than just like oh this is more than just this is tape.

[48:38] Alex Smolowe: Oh yeah.

[48:40] Nik Walker: What's wrong, honey? You weren't supposed to help her. It's okay now. She's not gonna hurt you. Don't you understand, Rachel? She never sleeps.

[49:02] Alex Smolowe: Hey, Alex.

[49:03] Nik Walker: Anyway. Fuck that.

[49:05] Alex Smolowe: Yeah.

[49:06] Nik Walker: You ever heard about that podcast? Little Justice? The one where if you look if you listen to it in seven days, you get a million dollars. If you can make it through one episode of the city. One episode of Little Justice. A million dollars. A million dollars cat tax free. You're gonna need it for all that therapy.

[49:28] Alex Smolowe: For all that goddamn therapy.

[49:30] Nik Walker: You're gonna need after after Tony Colette chases you into the goddamn attic.

[49:34] Alex Smolowe: Oh god. Terrible, terrible terrible. Tony Collette, I almost picked uh the sixth sense.

[49:39] Nik Walker: I mean, excellent movie. But not as a movie that's too resolution-y. It's too the story's too good in the sixth sense. The script is too solid for it to stay scary. There's some jump scares, there's some scary stuff, but but the characters are too interesting.

[49:54] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, it really 2 a.m.

[49:56] Nik Walker: I think I think that's you really do have to um, you know, and that's why I th I really do think the work of Tony Collett and Alex Wolf is especially in Hereditary is transcendent from that movie because you really don't want your characters to be on paper too likable. We want like we want we want to empathize with them, but we also want to be able to remove ourselves. Right, you know what I mean, and and and just like go on the journey. But Tony, I mean, it's really heartbreaking moments. Really things that did not have to be as deep as they were, uh, became deeper in the hands of these two amazing actors. The whole cast, everyone in the cast, but specifically them was just phenomenal.

[50:39] Alex Smolowe: So there you have it. Hereditary and ring, the ring, ringoo.

[50:43] Nik Walker: Ring. Um, if you yeah, please tweet at us, and I know I mentioned this earlier. Um, we would love to hear what your horror movies are. So um at again, I'm gonna say it again, at Lil Justice Pod. L I L J U S T I C E P O D. I'll think of a song for that later.

[51:02] Alex Smolowe: Uh yeah.

[51:04] Nik Walker: Don't knock on things when we're talking about horror movies.

[51:09] Alex Smolowe: Do you know how quickly I thought that was someone in another room?

[51:15] Nik Walker: Oh Alex, you're gonna you're gonna fucking burn for this.

[51:18] Alex Smolowe: I'm gonna watch you.

[51:20] Nik Walker: You helped her?

[51:21] Alex Smolowe: Stop it.

[51:22] Nik Walker: Stop it.

[51:23] Alex Smolowe: Why would you do it?

[51:25] Nik Walker: I'm getting off.

[51:25] Alex Smolowe: I'm getting off this podcast.

[51:27] Nik Walker: Ladies and gentlemen, have a wonderful day. Please stay safe.

[51:30] Alex Smolowe: Fuck you, Alex Small.

[51:33] Nik Walker: Little Justin.

[51:36] Alex Smolowe: Little Justice.

[51:39] Nik Walker: Little Justin.

[51:43] Alex Smolowe: Fuck yeah.