This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:04] Tori Bullard: Welcome back to Stage Door Podcast.

[0:06] Tori Bullard: Before we get into today's episode, talking to music theatre artist Toby Francis, we would like to acknowledge the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation, the traditional custodians on this land on which we work, live, and record, and recognize their continuing connection to land, water, and community.

[0:23] Tori Bullard: We pay respects to elders past, present, and emerging.

[0:27] Tori Bullard: Eliza, take it away with a bulletin.

[0:30] Eliza Gunther: Theatre is back in Sydney.

[0:33] Eliza Gunther: This past week it was announced that on November 20th, Belvoir Street Theatre will reopen with a great big dose of comic relief thanks to the BOOMKAK PANTO.

[0:42] Eliza Gunther: Written, co-directed, and starring the irresistible Virginia Gay, this panto about a bunch of people putting on a panto who have no idea what a panto is will be on from the 20th of November till the 23rd of December.

[0:56] Eliza Gunther: The Boomkak Panto promises to be a mad sparkling jewel, our award for getting through these dark and strange times.

[1:03] Eliza Gunther: For more info, head to Belvoir.com.au slash productions slash the BOOMKAK PANTO.

[1:10] Eliza Gunther: We are so excited to see 9 to 5 Dolly Parton's West End Smash Hit Musical is back in business in 2022.

[1:17] Eliza Gunther: The Australian premiere will open in February next year at the Capitol Theatre Sydney with tickets on sale from the 25th of October.

[1:24] Eliza Gunther: For more info and tickets and to jump on the wait list, head to 925musical.com.au.

[1:31] Eliza Gunther: October is ADHD Awareness Month, and this is a topic we actually speak quite a bit on in this week's episode as both Eliza and our guest Toby have both been diagnosed with ADHD.

[1:41] Tori Bullard: Keeping that in mind, we'd like to share some phenomenal resources and people in social media who are helping not only those with ADHD, but the general public to understand more about this neurodiversity.

[1:51] Tori Bullard: So if you want to learn more, pop over to Instagram, where there are some phenomenal creators helping us to learn and understand, such as the Psych Doctor MD, ADHD Doers, Molly's underscore ADHD, underscore mayhem, and more.

[2:05] Tori Bullard: We'll be sure to tag all these people down below and on our Instagram in our stories and our highlights so that they are easily accessible resources for everyone.

[2:14] Tori Bullard: That's it for today.

[2:15] Tori Bullard: Back over to you, Eliza.

[2:16] Eliza Gunther: Today we welcome singer, writer, producer, music theatre, and cabaret performer Toby Francis.

[2:22] Eliza Gunther: Toby's career kicked off quickly after he graduated from the Australian Institute of Music.

[2:28] Eliza Gunther: Just one week after he completed university, Toby won the eighth annual cabaret showcase and caught the attention of Australian entertainer David Campbell, who quickly took him under his wing, directing his debut cabaret show Blok Lahoma.

[2:43] Eliza Gunther: He then appeared in the leading role of Bolland as part of Neil Gooding Productions Australian premiere of Pasek and Paul's off-Broadway hit Dogfight at the Hayes Theatre Company.

[2:53] Eliza Gunther: In 2017, Toby completed a hugely successful season of Kinky Boots for Michael Castle, starring in the lead role of Charlie.

[3:01] Eliza Gunther: He then went on to co-produce and star in High Fidelity with his up-and-coming independent production company Highway Run Productions.

[3:08] Eliza Gunther: The following year, Toby was cast in the role of Galileo in We Will Rock You Arena Spectacular, and then as Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar for Packemin Productions.

[3:18] Eliza Gunther: Toby also played Guy in Darlinghurst Theatre's 2019 sold-out extended season of Once the Musical, which he also most recently returned to for a second season this year.

[3:29] Eliza Gunther: Please welcome to the mic, Toby.

[3:31] Toby Francis: Wow, that was a lot of stuff.

[3:36] Toby Francis: It's a big intro.

[3:37] Toby Francis: You've done a— you've done so much.

[3:39] Toby Francis: Like looking at the CV, I was like kind of going through it, and I was like, okay, okay.

[3:44] Toby Francis: Alright.

[3:45] Toby Francis: This is a lot.

[3:46] Toby Francis: Um, which is like great.

[3:48] Toby Francis: It's like great to see that you've been so hugely successful.

[3:52] Toby Francis: Thank you.

[3:53] Toby Francis: It doesn't feel like I've done a lot.

[3:54] Toby Francis: Like this past couple of years, I'm like, I haven't done anything.

[3:58] Toby Francis: But that's not actually true.

[3:59] Toby Francis: I looked back on this year because the gaps have been so long between work and you've spent so much time locked down because there's a pandemic.

[4:06] Toby Francis: I don't know if you read the news, but um there's a virus going around.

[4:11] Toby Francis: And um, and you feel like you haven't worked, even though I've kind of I've been very lucky in that I've had sort of intermittent work once we sort of open back up and then shut back down, and that's a thank you for that very kind introduction.

[4:25] Toby Francis: It's always also nice, I think, to be reminded that you have done well because it's really hard for yourself sometimes.

[4:30] Toby Francis: You kind of just go like from one thing to the next thing to the next thing.

[4:33] Toby Francis: But um, I guess obviously, like you said, we've obviously we are in lockdown in New South Wales.

[4:39] Toby Francis: But how have you been?

[4:39] Toby Francis: And like what like do you have any recommendations for us?

[4:42] Toby Francis: Like, what have you been doing to stop yourself from going absolutely insane?

[4:46] Toby Francis: Oh, absolutely nothing.

[4:47] Toby Francis: I've just gone mental.

[4:48] Toby Francis: Um I um I've gone back to university, actually.

[4:53] Toby Francis: I don't know why I said it like that.

[4:54] Toby Francis: Um I've gone university.

[4:56] Toby Francis: I've gone back to university, and now I have to say university.

[4:59] Toby Francis: No, I've um I've gone back to uni to study uh uh bachelor of education uh for high school and a bachelor of arts majoring in English and minoring in theatre.

[5:10] Toby Francis: So that's taken up a lot of my time.

[5:12] Toby Francis: I'm absolutely I'm really loving it.

[5:14] Toby Francis: Uh I'm also watching a lot of Netflix and reading a lot of Kindle and all of all of those usual things, walking a little bit.

[5:24] Toby Francis: That's literally it.

[5:25] Toby Francis: Coffee.

[5:26] Toby Francis: But I have a big recommendation that I just watched.

[5:28] Toby Francis: If you you get Paramount Plus, which is excellent.

[5:31] Toby Francis: Um, there is a show called Nathan for You from comedian Nathan Fielder, which I think was massive in the States and wasn't big here at all.

[5:40] Toby Francis: It's incredible, it's amazing.

[5:43] Toby Francis: It's from like 2015, but it's kind of like I don't want to make comparisons, but if you like Borat or Sasha Baron Cohen or that or The Chaser or that kind of thing where people are doing sort of just social disruption, it's really amazing, but it has this through line and this story and this heart that is incredible.

[6:03] Toby Francis: There were times when I was in tears of laughter and times when I was really really moved.

[6:08] Toby Francis: It's so good.

[6:09] Toby Francis: That has stopped me going bananas.

[6:11] Eliza Gunther: We're gonna have to check that one out.

[6:13] Eliza Gunther: I think as well, like um it's really nice when you have comedy that makes you think, and then you're crying at one point and then you're laughing at another, and you're like, this is a full body experience right now.

[6:23] Toby Francis: That's it.

[6:24] Toby Francis: Nathan for you is a full body experience.

[6:26] Toby Francis: That's what it is.

[6:28] Eliza Gunther: That is a delightful uh delightful description.

[6:31] Toby Francis: Oh, alliteration.

[6:32] Toby Francis: I learned about that in my English degree.

[6:35] Eliza Gunther: Yes, and obviously you're you're now studying as well.

[6:38] Eliza Gunther: That's really exciting that you're you're taking that leap into education.

[6:42] Eliza Gunther: Are you um still gonna be doing theatre and education at the same time, you reckon?

[6:46] Toby Francis: Or yeah, I don't think I will give it up entirely, but I'm doing it's not like a hard pivot, but it's not a soft pivot, it's a medium pivot uh into I I want to go and because I don't I don't have a degree.

[7:01] Toby Francis: I've dropped out of high school in year 10.

[7:05] Toby Francis: I've um I still went to class in year 11.

[7:08] Toby Francis: I'm sorry, I still went to the campus in year 11 and 12, I just didn't go to class.

[7:12] Toby Francis: Um, so I can't do a master's of teaching to go become a teacher.

[7:17] Toby Francis: So I went back to uni to study uh and I say back to uni 'cause I was at AIME where you two both study, but I never completed my degree.

[7:26] Eliza Gunther: So neither did I.

[7:28] Toby Francis: That's it, it owes well for you, let me just say.

[7:31] Toby Francis: But yeah.

[7:33] Toby Francis: But I um I went back to to UNSW and I um I started studying to try and be like I need to I need to study this degree if I want to go and teach and be able to teach to do sort of pick up work and have a bit more financial stability and I I loved it and I really love it and I'm doing really well um which is something I've never really done at school before.

[7:53] Toby Francis: I've never done well at school 'cause I've had ADHD and um I fell in love with it and I want to do educational honors and I eventually would like to do an educational doctorate if I do well enough and the university says that's fine.

[8:09] Toby Francis: So um yeah I think I'll probably do both and a little bit of everything but there'll probably come a time in my life where I go, I'm gonna go be a professor.

[8:17] Eliza Gunther: I mean why not?

[8:18] Toby Francis: Oh that's exciting though.

[8:20] Eliza Gunther: Why not?

[8:21] Eliza Gunther: You can do anything with your life.

[8:22] Eliza Gunther: You can do theatre, you can be a professor, you can you know those are the two things go away and join the circus.

[8:28] Toby Francis: There's the only circus.

[8:30] Toby Francis: It's either theatre professor or circus.

[8:32] Eliza Gunther: Yeah.

[8:33] Toby Francis: There really is nothing else in between.

[8:35] Toby Francis: When you have ADHD which the the worst part about ADHD actually isn't the whole like um learning disability thing I find.

[8:44] Toby Francis: It's the dysregulation of sleep.

[8:46] Toby Francis: It's the dysregulation of um emotional moods, um as opposed to unemotional moods.

[8:52] Toby Francis: Um it's also the random like just energy crashes throughout the day, um being overwhelmed in situations where there's too much noise.

[9:02] Toby Francis: Sometimes like you want lots of noise and lots of stimulus, and sometimes you want none, and it can be really fickle like that, and can be really distressing and and and difficult when you don't know what's going on.

[9:12] Toby Francis: So it's really interesting, and I would love to hear what you have to say on this.

[9:16] Toby Francis: Um there's a lot of right now.

[9:18] Toby Francis: I'm at uni and there's actually quite a few people I know in theatre who do have ADHD.

[9:24] Toby Francis: And I don't know about you, but I do find some things quite difficult to I have found more difficult in theatre because it is like that over stimulation and things like that.

[9:35] Eliza Gunther: Have how have you dealt with having ADHD and being in the industry?

[9:39] Toby Francis: I find the hardest things in it uh are not sort of overstimulate.

[9:43] Toby Francis: It's it's work ethic and discipline.

[9:46] Toby Francis: Um because you can have a really strong work ethic, but it that counts for nothing if you can't self-motivate.

[9:53] Toby Francis: So like learning lines and stuff, I just I'm very lucky in that I developed a way when I was quite young to really not have to sit down and learn lines.

[10:01] Toby Francis: And I I say developed a lot away, it's just really like just putting down the script as soon as I can and flying by the seat of my pants.

[10:08] Toby Francis: Um but and because you are forced to learn them.

[10:11] Toby Francis: Other times it's really exciting and really great, like when something goes wrong on stage, I love it.

[10:15] Eliza Gunther: Yeah.

[10:16] Toby Francis: I love when something goes wrong on stage because it's really stimulating and really exciting, and you have to kind of figure out a puzzle and how do you get back, and um when there's all those lights and the noise and like opening nights and all that stuff, that's that's great because it's really exciting and you can get sort of a laser focus.

[10:33] Toby Francis: But the other stuff, like go home and learn all of these songs by tomorrow, I I just don't do it.

[10:39] Toby Francis: I just don't I just don't do it, especially if it's not a performance.

[10:42] Toby Francis: Like it's hard.

[10:44] Toby Francis: Unless there is something concrete in front of me with people like can you learn 18 songs.

[10:48] Toby Francis: That's why I really like the American system and the UK system of you can hold the music and you can hold the script and I've I go into auditions now and that's what I do unless I'm at callbacks.

[10:59] Toby Francis: If I'm at callbacks yes because you want to get it on your feet but those initial rounds I'm not presenting and no one is presenting a a full performance you and you shouldn't so I think we need we need more of that just for everybody not even people who are neurodiverse.

[11:13] Eliza Gunther: Oh my god I hit the mic not even not even people who not even people who are neurodiverse but just in general for everyone's sanity and and it it's more beneficial like you're not presenting a finished product like just relax like let people hold the script and if you want to see them do it without the script call them back.

[11:29] Eliza Gunther: Definitely that's um a good perspective to have on it because sometimes you can get too in your head of like oh I have to do this and I have to do this and I have to be I have to be trying you know present in that same way being able to just be off book all the time and and do those things so um it's good to talk about it.

[11:29] Toby Francis: It's good to talk like normalize ADHD and and in theatre and especially within the arts.

[11:55] Toby Francis: It's because I think it's because it's really stimulating area and you are never doing the same job never like your yes you're you do a production great and then that's finished and you fuck off and you go do something else.

[12:08] Toby Francis: Like I'm someone who that's why Kinky Boots was great was because it was the first time I'd done a long running show it's my first professional musical with that was paid me a wage like that.

[12:19] Toby Francis: Um you know, I'd done work before that, like Dogfight was on a cooperative agreement and and all of that that stuff.

[12:26] Toby Francis: Uh which I also think is really important, uh really important work and a and a great way for people to sort of get in and for work to get seen that might be a bit riskier.

[12:34] Toby Francis: Um god, that's ADHD, it just stops.

[12:39] Toby Francis: You're like, uh I do it all the time.

[12:42] Toby Francis: But what I'm saying is that like once with Kinky Boots, like that was a long-running show, and how do you keep yourself focused?

[12:48] Toby Francis: And that's about finding and not and you still have to deliver the same product and the and hit the same marks and all that stuff, but how do you stay focused all that time?

[12:56] Toby Francis: And I and it I did, and it was really satisfying, and we could unpack that for hours, but there's always this feeling you go, what's next?

[13:03] Toby Francis: And I remember Michael Castle, the producer, said to me when Kinky Boots finished, um because we can talk about the end of Kinky Boots if you'd like, because in Brisbane, and this is something people don't talk about.

[13:15] Toby Francis: I had a vocal injury in my last three weeks on Kinky Boots.

[13:18] Eliza Gunther: No way.

[13:18] Toby Francis: Uh and I'm fine now.

[13:22] Toby Francis: I'm fine.

[13:23] Toby Francis: People have this idea that you have a vocal injury and your career's kaput, and that's it, and it's not true.

[13:29] Toby Francis: But to finish up, Michael Castle um came into me into my dressing room and he said, How do you feel?

[13:35] Toby Francis: And it was the last performance before the last performance.

[13:39] Toby Francis: And I said, um, I'm not ready for it to finish, but I'm ready to move on.

[13:44] Toby Francis: And I think that's the perfect place.

[13:46] Toby Francis: And that's I what I uh is where you want to go. You go, I don't want to give this up. There's still so much more, but I could move on to something else, and I do want something else to stimulate me as well. And that's the perfect place because you're not sick of it, you're not um you're still invigorated and you still love it. But um, I think that's what the arts provides to neurodivergent people, particularly ADHD people, is there's always something new coming, something exciting. So um, yeah. But do you want to talk about the end of Kinky Boots?

[14:14] Eliza Gunther: I mean, absolutely. I mean, what was that experience just like for you?

[14:18] Toby Francis: I mean Kinky Boots changed my life, and I get really sad about Kinky Boots because it was my first professional musical, it was my first lead role like on that scale. So I will never feel like that again in my life, ever. Even if I do another lead role in a major musical, it will never feel the same. It'll never feel like that. Um and it was a happy cast and it was a great production, and we were so supportive. We had Michael Castle, who's uh a good friend and an incredible producer who takes care of his casts and um knows everyone's name and and it was just it was incredible. And by the end in Brisbane, I there's a scene in the middle of Kinky Boots which is like 15 minutes of an argument just prior to Soul of a Man, which is Charlie's climactic number.

Mm-hmm. And I was yelling a lot as an actor because I just I don't know, got carried away and everyone kept saying, Stop yelling all the time, you're gonna hurt yourself. And I was like, I'm fine, I thought I was bulletproof. Because vocally when it comes to singing, I'm pretty bulletproof. But um when it comes to and I'm very lucky like that, but when it comes to sort of the scene work, I thought that would translate and it didn't. I think I was just putting it in the wrong place and in Brisbane I started having vocal trouble and I was like, what's going on? There was one bit where you I was meant to hold a note for I think it's like ten seconds or something, and um at the end of Soul of a Man, and there was one night where I went to hit the note and it I just went came off it within sort of two seconds because I couldn't hold it and didn't know what was going on and I was really scared and there was this sound in my vocals, this sound.

And if there is anyone listening who could cast me in anything, let me tell you I'm fine. But everything's all good. Um he's still castable, it's okay, it's okay. But here's the thing is that I found I I started thinking, this is the end of my career. Like I've just started this is the end of my career. And the speech pathologist, great uh Deb Feyland, who was our speech pathologist on the show, was like, yeah, I'm worried that that's um that's a polyp or a nodule or something. But it sounds like a polyp. Yeah, see, everyone goes, ooh, but yes, it's it's a health event, but like it's it's and it's not frivolous, but it's also not the end of the world. So I was up in Brisbane and and Dr. Broadhurst up there, who was excellent, did had a look at me on the scope, and he goes, Yeah, you've got what's called a polypoid fringe.

And I was like, what is that? And he goes, That's the start of a polyp. We used to think nodules were the he didn't say this to me, but like as as singers we we used to think the nodules were the bad one, right? And polyps, they'll go away. It's the other way, not the other way around, but like nodules will go away with rest. Polyps will not go away, they need intervention. Um as a general rule, I'm sure that like if Deb Feyland is listening to this or Dr. Broadhurst, they'll be like, that's not technically correct, but as I understand it, and I'm no expert, so please talk to a doctor, but um it's kind of like the other way around. I was off for three weeks. I ended up having a hydrocortisone injection into the chords, which is where they put a big needle down your throat and stick it in the chords, it's awesome.

Um I've done that twice and watched the video, it's fucking awesome. Um but I had been off and I didn't know if I was going to make it back for the final performance. And during this whole time, I'm looking down the barrel of High Fidelity. We were gonna finish Kinky Boots, and then I would fly to Sydney and start rehearsals the next day for High Fidelity, which is a massive scene. Uh Michael Castle said to me, he he would call me and he'd check in, and and the company was incredible, and like the cast, the crew, company management, everybody was incredible, and I had so much support. And Michael Castle said to me, This is incredible. He said to me, We want to get you better. Because I said, I just want to get back on stage, man.

I just want to get back there with the cast and do the show. And he said, We want to get you back too, but we need you to rest, and we want to get you back when you're when it's right to do so, because you we have to think about you know your future, and we have to think about High Fidelity, and this is insane because this is a multi-million dollar musical, Michael Castle, who is building what I believe is an entertainment empire that's gonna be global, and he has this focus, he's like worked for Cam Mack, he's got the rights to Lion King, he's now doing Harry Potter, he had all of that in the works. This incredible huge thing that I'm just like a small piece of, and he went, Let's not put you on, even though I'm paying you a leads wage each week, because you have a small short run musical appearing at the Haze, which is an incredible venue, and I love it.

But the amount of people who who see a show at a sold-out capacity is about 2,000, I think, for that run. Um, it's about four thousand people. Um which is like not even a week of major musicals, so comparing it. Yeah, I was gonna say that was gonna cost me and and co-producers sort of a hundred thousand dollars to put on. He his focus was to make sure that I could get up and do this show that I was putting my own money into and Neil Gooding was putting his money into, and Lauren Peters was putting her money into, and and to make sure that I could do that thing, it was it was so selfless and incredible. And but here's the thing that I got back for the final performance. Like I had my injection into the chords, it was very scary, and now it's like not very scary, and and it's gone.

The polypoid fringe is gone. I went worked with my speech pathologist and Dr. Broadhurst, who checked me out, he gave me two injections and we did some exercises and it went away, and I was able to keep to my rehearsal schedule. And the funny thing was that I thought I had a massive vocal injury, and the more speak people I spoke to in the industry who'd been around for ages, I'll be like, oh yeah, I I had that. Like no one no one fucking talks about it, and like everyone I know has had something happen. Has had some kind of thing, or knows somebody who's had something, or knows someone who's had a hemorrhage, or know someone who dealt with nodules, or like and we don't talk about it, and we act like it's some big career-ending thing, and we act like it's due to technique and sometimes it's not.

And and it's this big lie we've been sold, all because we know of Julie Andrews who was operated on, as I I th I think the story is she was operated on before the swelling went down, and she was operated on in the 80s. Like, we're we're 40 years ahead of that time. But like, look at all those people who've done it. Like, I I mean, Delta Goodrum had um it wasn't a vocal injury, it was a I think it was a neurological thing that affected her voice, and and now she made a documentary about it, I think. Um, but you know, like Sam Smith and Adele and all of these people who've had vocal injuries because they're vocal athletes essentially. Like you look at people who run or play footy or whatever, they get injured and everyone's like, oh, isn't that a shame?

But then singers get injured and everyone's like, well, they I knew they were gonna get hurt. And there's this weird, like this weird, like voyeuristic bullshit that happens in the industry where when Adele got hurt, I remember people posting on Facebook being like, I said it years ago she was gonna injure herself singing like that. It's like I like Adele's voice, and I would I prefer listening to people who sing. I'm not saying they should endanger their voice, but I like hearing people who sing dangerously because it's exciting, and those are the people those are the people who have interesting sounds to their voice. I think there's a balance balance that needs to be done, and I'm not saying we should be frivolous about vocal injuries by any means, but I'm also saying we like hide them and demonize them and act like it's the singer's fault and act like it's the end of a career and it's not. There's so many people I know who've had vocal injuries who've come back and they're better than ever.

[22:19] Eliza Gunther: Yeah, exactly. So you're still hireable, just putting it out there, putting it out there, still hireable.

[22:25] Toby Francis: Yeah, and obviously, I guess most recently you were hired most recently uh to return for Once.

[22:32] Eliza Gunther: Yeah, which is vocally like super demanding.

[22:35] Toby Francis: That that that yeah.

[22:38] Eliza Gunther: I saw that opening night in Sydney.

[22:40] Toby Francis: Which s this season?

[22:41] Eliza Gunther: This season this Yes, I got given tickets to review it.

[22:45] Toby Francis: Oh, for who?

[22:46] Eliza Gunther: A TYP.

[22:47] Toby Francis: And you reviewed it?

[22:48] Eliza Gunther: Yes.

[22:49] Toby Francis: And is it on the internet?

[22:50] Eliza Gunther: It is.

[22:51] Toby Francis: Is it Victoria?

[22:53] Eliza Gunther: Yeah, that's me.

[22:55] Toby Francis: And then Dimitra.

[22:56] Eliza Gunther: Yes.

[22:58] Toby Francis: Like, look, Once is one of my favourite shows because I saw it um on Broadway, I've seen it in Melbourne, Yonks ago, Sorten City, and still still love the story that it tells and always have. Um I think these are fair points that people make about this show. Is that I don't necessarily agree that it's problematic.

[23:20] Eliza Gunther: Not not not problematic, sorry, that that it's I agree that it is is problematic.

[23:24] Toby Francis: It's of the time. Um and art doesn't exist in a vacuum. It really doesn't. Um but I don't believe that necessarily that that problematic story of which is I think it's probably the best kind of the best of those stories. Um Demetra's criticism for anyone listening of the show is that it plays into the trope of the Manic Pixie Dream Girl, um, and who stumbles upon this broken man who she then helps better his life, and then that's the story. Um And I think it is because it's explicit in Guy's journey that he's getting better uh and moving forward and moving on. But it's implicit in her journey, um, so it doesn't sort of foreground her journey. And I think that's a style of writing that was happening at the time. I mean this is 200 when. And it's also based then around a movie.

[24:20] Eliza Gunther: Yeah, 2007 is the movie.

[24:22] Toby Francis: Yeah. Yeah, it's like it's over ten it's over ten years old and we're we're ch s our our social tolerance and our uh our social sort of um awareness is is progressing very quickly and I think that it's not like if you were to write a show now, it's not good enough to have an implicit journey for for girl. Um where sh her implicit journey is that she's guy's stuck he's stopped she refers to him as stopped um and the most people watch the show and they think it's because his girlfriend left him but I actually think it's because his mum died and that's what he needs to m to move on from and just live. But girls journey is that she's demonstrably unhappy in in in a life that is just that she won't unpack and she's guarded and she won't ever talk about anything that concerns her but is forcing everyone to talk about all the things directly about other people's lives.

And that's something we addressed and and Richard Carroll as director was really aware of in the room is how do you sort of not try and play into the manic pixie dream girl tropes. And I think personally we did a really good job of that. Um but I also think that it's there in the script. Like it is it is there in the script and and um if it doesn't resonate to somebody that we worked past it then they they they just didn't feel that we moved past it.

[25:48] Eliza Gunther: So I guess that is but I think that the heart of it the reason that the show is so good is that because it is the best of that kind of narrative.

[25:56] Toby Francis: Like it does that thing well and I don't think it actually does disempower girl and I don't think it like um sexuality and sex isn't isn't in that story and it wasn't in the rehearsal room. Um Steph Kakomo and I love each other very much but it's completely platonic. And we always started with an idea that there was this platonicness that and I think that we I've had this experience in my life where you love somebody very quickly and you are conditioned to believe that if that person is of the gender that you are attracted to, that therefore loving someone of the gender you are attracted to must mean that the love is romantic. And I don't think that's true. I've been confused by that in the past where I thought I was in love with somebody and I wasn't. I just we just connected really well and we fell in love very quickly, platonic love.

And I think Guy has that confusion in him with girl. I think I think that love is a practice and it's and it's something you do and they could have turned it into something romantic and and that kind of thing, but you make this choice not to. So I think it is is something about friendship and the fleetingness of friendship, and I also think it's honest. I think that that those criticisms of narrative structure are true.

[27:21] Eliza Gunther: But you can't not that you can't, and we should talk about it, but I don't think it undermines the show. I think that everything that we look back on, everything that is a decade old at least is going to be problematic.

[27:33] Toby Francis: It's just gonna be. Find me something that's not problematic from ten years ago. Find me anything.

[27:39] Eliza Gunther: I agree. I mean, I recently just did Greece and they were I mean, very similarly how you said they were really trying to make sure that you don't play into certain aspects of the narrative that are not that today's audience won't like.

[27:53] Toby Francis: It's finding how you can still put on these texts and be true to the story, but also like come at it from different lenses. There is always a different lens that you can take with it. I mean, obviously you can't take words out most of the time, but depending on the show. I think it depends on the show and it depends on how it's directed. Like I've definitely seen and I won't name the production I definitely saw a show of a play that is very outdated and they did exactly the opposite. They played into the bad stuff and the stuff that makes it problematic now. Um and it really really showed because it left it was one of those times where you just sat there going I'm really not comfortable watching this. Like this is this is they've done it exactly how you would have done it in the eighties.

[28:46] Eliza Gunther: Yeah right. Wait can I just say one more thing just super quick is that I don't want to misrepresent um Demetra's critique either because that's not her only critique of the show another one is that um is that it uh novelizes the Czech community you know portrayed as that she says portrayed as a simplistic people full of blinding happiness, fun and deep running passions despite their hardships again a valuable listen in life for guy. The culture is so exotic so sexy um and I think that that's a fair comment as well. I think that there is um sort of a fetishization of other cultures that prevails in even in even in work that was progressive at the time comparative to now into how we understand culture and what what the role of culture and presenting other cultures in works is.

[29:38] Toby Francis: But I also note that she's twenty six or they are 26 I should say sorry I'm not sure what her what their pronouns are, see I'm learning. And I'm not saying that to undermine them at all. What I am saying is that people like Dimitra and of that age are the future of theatre and it should be that way. It should be that that if they tore the show apart for its politics, fantastic, great. That that's absolutely and I'm not saying great, let them do it and and we'll just carry on. I'm saying like that's the conversation that should be happening and is happening. And I think if people make a point whether it's angry or not, you have to tackle the point and you have to argue against the point. And if somebody says something and they're upset about it, it's not enough to say, I don't think that this kind of way of discourse and and the way of talking about theatre matters, and this way of talking about theatre is helpful.

It's like it doesn't, it doesn't matter if Demetra has something to say that's fair and valid that should be listened to, whether it's whether someone's in the show or not, and it should be engaged with.

[31:03] Eliza Gunther: Some people might get into this stage where they go, Oh, you know, I can't say anything bad about the show I'm in, um, but so I have to defend it, and therefore I have to sort of then cause backlash to the show or whatever it is, and uh I don't think that's true. I don't think it is saying something bad about the show to say that there are things that are there because of the time it was written in that mean something different now, which should be unpacked, and if that gets unpacked in a review that people go to, then that's that's what it should be. I also note that Demetra was really, really effusive about the creative aspects of the show, and in particular, sh uh they say, I'm not sure I've ever heard a voice like Stephanie Kakomo's It's Immaculate.

[31:47] Toby Francis: That's correct. I think Steph Cacomo has a beautiful voice, an incredible instrument, and she understands it really well. I think that's a great review. I haven't read yours, Tori, but um I will.

[31:58] Tori Bullard: You don't have to read mine.

[32:00] Toby Francis: I will. I will.

[32:02] Eliza Gunther: Well, I guess we might actually move into a bit of a game. We have a game today, which will be lots of fun. It'll be Tori and yourself doing a little bit of a lyric challenge.

[32:12] Toby Francis: Is this music theatre songs? Because I don't know it I don't know any music theatre songs.

[32:17] Eliza Gunther: It is, but it shows that you've been here.

[32:18] Toby Francis: Oh, okay. Are they trying this is even worse because I won't remember it.

[32:22] Eliza Gunther: Oh, you've got this, you've got this. I'm gonna give Tori the first one so that it will alleviate some pressures there.

[32:30] Eliza Gunther: Okay. Alright, Tori. Your first one is Welcome to our future. No longer are we making shoes. This is from Kinky Boots, and this is the show that I boasted for ages. It was like one of my favourite shows. Um we're making the measurement is wrong, two and a half feet of Yes. Irresistible tubular sex.

[32:56] Toby Francis: Yes. Is that is that all it is? Is irresistible of maybe we will be making two and a half feet.

[33:03] Eliza Gunther: Well, I think it's like tubular.

[33:06] Toby Francis: Yeah. Is that it? Yeah, I couldn't remember it. What is going on?

[33:12] Eliza Gunther: Alright, Toby, you ready?

[33:15] Toby Francis: Because I'm cheating.

[33:16] Eliza Gunther: No, I'm joking. I'm joking, I'm not gonna cheat on it.

[33:19] Toby Francis: Okay. Let's go.

[33:20] Eliza Gunther: That might be the first time, and I would actually be really surprised if that was actually the first time.

[33:25] Toby Francis: Yeah, people are just totally cheating.

[33:28] Eliza Gunther: Alright. Chipping around, kicking my brains around the floor. These are the days it rains but never pause.

[33:36] Toby Francis: Yeah. Yeah. These are the days it rains but never pause. We got a show as an answer.

[33:41] Eliza Gunther: I know, guys. Phenomenal. You're getting you're getting the free show here.

[33:49] Eliza Gunther: Uh this is one of my personal favorites for Tori today. This woman leaves behind a suffering child. Um, um this woman lives behind a suffering child. No one but me who can you are really close.

[34:06] Toby Francis: I wanna say intervene, but intermingle.

[34:13] Eliza Gunther: So close. There's none but me who can intercede.

[34:17] Toby Francis: Steal my answer.

[34:18] Eliza Gunther: Yeah, you bet I did. You've got to be quick.

[34:23] Eliza Gunther: Zero points, Tori. It was the last word, and it was the last like syllable of the word. You also said no one but me, and there is none but me, so look, let's get technical. You might want to change your ATYP review by the end of this. You might go in and go, listen, Toby Francis is problematic.

[34:43] Toby Francis: I would not change that because that was one of the best shows that I reviewed for ATYPs.

[34:47] Eliza Gunther: Oh, well, thank you so much. I love ATYP, by the way. I think they're incredible, incredible organization.

[34:52] Eliza Gunther: Okay. Toby a hard one. Toby. I'm gonna give him one. I'm getting I'm giving him a hard one. Maybe. I don't know. These are all shows he's been in.

[35:02] Eliza Gunther: How hard can it get? Okay. If you strip away the myth from the man.

[35:07] Toby Francis: Oh, of course. Yeah.

[35:08] Eliza Gunther: If you strip away the myth from the man, you will see where we all soon will be.

[35:16] Toby Francis: You absolutely nailed it. You absolutely.

[35:21] Eliza Gunther: We love the Jesus Christ Superstar moment.

[35:23] Toby Francis: I love that show. I do have a tiebreaker. Now I know that it's technically not a tie right now, but I'm also gonna give it, I'm gonna give I still got throwing you a bone. I'm throwing you a bone.

[35:34] Eliza Gunther: Let's go to the tiebreaker. Okay, I'll say the words and then and then I'll say one, two, three, and then you can say your name, and then um whoever's name comes in first.

[35:43] Toby Francis: Okay, we'll get to answer.

[35:44] Eliza Gunther: Okay. You've got to take what you've got. One, two, three.

[35:50] Toby Francis: Okay, and Tori!

[35:52] Eliza Gunther: Tony got in!

[35:55] Toby Francis: Wait, wait, wait.

[35:58] Eliza Gunther: Wait. You gotta see what you got.

[36:03] Toby Francis: Even when your life is in nuts.

[36:06] Eliza Gunther: Yeah.

[36:08] Toby Francis: Yeah.

[36:10] Eliza Gunther: Oh my god, I lost that. In I lost that. Because that's not the true fear in your face.

[36:17] Toby Francis: Oh my god. Well, that's not that's the funny thing about that song is that that's Charlie's I Want song, which is sung by Harry, his friend. Mostly Harry's singing about how you just gotta do whatever you like, like you gotta just make the best of a bad situation. And Charlie's I want moment, which is really important in a musical, to be let's the song where it's like, I want to get out of here and do all of that shit, as you would know. He has a bridge where he talks things about what he wants. Like he has literally four lines, and you have to like pack in all of the stuff into four lines. Congratulations. You've you've beaten beat beaten me with a bat. Uh you've beat me. You've done well. So that that thanks for ruining my winning streak. That was it's really brings me down to earth there.

[37:04] Eliza Gunther: Um anyway. Jumping back into this, um you were in something really, really um sick at the beginning of the year, uh, which was Rewired Musicals Imagined, uh, with the Hayes and Sydney Festival. What was the process like? Obviously, you mainly did La Miz, but in this like rock, pop rock kind of style. What was it like, kind of, I guess, almost like relearning these pieces?

[37:32] Toby Francis: It was amazing. I worked with Isaac Haywood as a musical director. So when The Hayes came to me and said, Do you want to be part of this thing? Um I was like, fuck yes I do. And and they were like, well, if you do, what do you want to what do you want to be? And I was in a punk band. I my first love is uh like punk rock and hardcore and all of them. Like not just like Blink, even though I love Blink and I love all those mainstream bands. I also love I don't know if anyone's listening who knows these bands like Mill and Colin and Wonder Years. I mean no effects are pretty huge, refused any of this this is anything. No, I like Slipknot. Having spent my time in the in the rock metal genre too many. I know Slipknot. I I had a time in like year nine where I was all about Evanescence and Slipknot and um Cory something.

[38:31] Eliza Gunther: Corey Taylor.

[38:32] Toby Francis: I don't remember his name anymore. No, different one. Corn. I was not thinking of corn, I was thinking of corn. Yeah, corn's great. Anyway, though that was kind of my like my first love, and I love pop punk and like all of that. And so I said, I would love to take a musical and do like pop punk punk style. And they said, Great. And who do you want to work with? And I said Isaac Hayward, and he was free, and he like is a rock guy from way back. And I said, I would love to do this song in a pop punk style, like kind of like this song. I would love to do kind of metal, real metal, and no, not like music theatre metal. Um and I would love to and he kind of took that ball and ran with it and sent me examples and things, and then I really was like, I want to do on my own as a pop punk song, and I want to do some metal, and these are the songs I think.

And Isaac took that, trimmed it, and really ran with it, and we did it in 12 minutes straight. We had 12 minutes and we had too many songs, so I I was like, Well, fuck talking then, let's just start and move into song after song, um and just not stop, like just come out and do this like rock and roll, lame is thing, and it works really well because Schoenberg and Bobalil were pop songwriters before they did Lay Mir's. Um, and like you could take a whole bunch of you know I'm gonna I want to keep working on that kind of idea and take a whole bunch of modern Broadway artists and and turn them into you know pop punk songs because these punk lends itself to pop, it's always been pop. I don't I'm not a punk purist in that like the Ramones, people like yeah, the Ramones, it's like yes, it was anti-establishment, but it was pop songs, um yeah and it's always been used pop elements and and the subversive messaging, and so if you find a song that has great pop elements, you can convert that into a punk song and it sounds fucking great.

That was amazing, like we we got to perform out the front of uh St Mary's when we came back to do it again to close out yeah um sunset and Sunset Piazza and there were these big screens and it just felt like rock and roll like it was huge it was massive it just got to jump around the stage and uh Isaac Haywood shredded the guitar Michael Napoli shredded the guitar like I think Charlie Kurth was our drummer and who drummed on we were rocky it was just it was fucking amazing and I want to do it again I want to do it again it's probably one of my favorite things that I've been able to be part of and Isaac Heywood is a genius. He's i I would work twice as hard for half as much for Isaac I would yeah don't tell my agent but that's what I like he's just he's phenomenal he's phenomenal.

[41:17] Toby Francis: It's incredible to have opportunities that are a little bit different to what we do all the time in the classical musical theatre and classical concerts where it's as written, but to really get to work with the text, which is so exciting. And I guess on that similar note, like you've done a fair share of commercial work and work outside of theatre. What advice do you have to give to theatre-based actors looking to diversify themselves?

[41:44] Toby Francis: I think my advice would be to diversify yourself. Like, you have to. This idea of being just a music theatre actor is rare. But doing that without also having a sort of ability to write your own work as well or to, you know, get commercial work, to work in TV, which I don't do, not out of choice. So not out of choice, so come knocking, you know, to do this other work or do straight plays and things is really important. And it's also really fulfilling. And it also means that you don't get to the end of an audition period because all the auditions tend to come out together at the moment, and I'm not sure why. But that period can just really batter your soul up because you'll get a whole bunch of no's. And also, you might have a three-month period where you've got an audition for every show that's coming in the next year or two.

[42:39] Eliza Gunther: Yeah.

[42:39] Toby Francis: And there might be another one or two shows that get announced, but there's this feeling you go, if I don't book, that's it. I'm gonna have to do something else for the next couple of years. And what do you want that to be? You know, I would have said cruise work, like guest entertaining on cruises where they fly you in for a week, you do a show, and you get to have a holiday. Like, it's fantastic work.

[43:02] Toby Francis: It's really great. You get put up in a guest bedroom and everything.

[43:06] Toby Francis: I would have said that, but you know, little pandemic going on. But my advice would be just to start doing things and to listen to people who came before you. Not in like respect it, but like if you want to write your own cabaret and you don't know, I'm terrible at this, as I'm sure you've discovered. Like, I constantly forget to reply to things, and I'm thank you so much for chasing me. I'm so sorry. But like, I'm terrible with this. So I've had a few people message me who I need to apologize to where I was like, yeah, I'll help you. But hook up a meeting to meet with someone to go over stuff because people are pretty generous with time. If you don't know how to write something and put it together, ask people and just be involved.

And being a music theatre performer on its own is probably not going to pay your bills. But working outside of music theatre is not a failure. It's really fulfilling and it's really great. And like I start, I mean, it's easy for me to say I started in cabaret. Like, I started working cabaret. All my work that I do on my own is like rock stuff in cabaret.

[44:13] Toby Francis: I kind of worked that, which means that as a music theatre performer, I'm not very diverse. Like, I'm not a dancer. I'm not gonna get cast in West Side Story because I can't dance it. So when the shows come along that I do, I hope that I have cultivated enough of my skill set that I could be top of those lists for those shows. But that means that I'm the bottom of the list for the other ones.

[44:39] Eliza Gunther: Yeah.

[44:39] Toby Francis: I think, and I think that you carve out that niche by showing the industry who you are and what you do, which is all the stuff outside of music theatre.

[44:47] Eliza Gunther: Yeah.

[44:48] Toby Francis: In particular cabarets or your own written work or plays or whatever. So I think it's important to do that. You can do radio work or, you know, voice-over work. I guess I think there's a lot of opportunity out there. Like voice-over work, yeah, radio work, if you've got a good voice and you're good at telling a story with your voice. Then, because like you said, it's not a failure if you go out and you do something else at the same time that you're still pursuing theatre and music theatre, even if it's not necessarily directly in line with acting or with music. If you're, if the main thing at the end of the day, I think is that you've got to be happy with it and happy with what you do. And you want to be able to look back at your time in, you know, I don't know, twenty, thirty years from now and go, yeah, I really loved doing that and I was happy and it didn't make me want to cry every night.

[45:39] Toby Francis: And I guess kind of moving into one of our final questions, because I don't know if we've asked you very many questions, because you've kind of answered a lot of our questions without us having to ask. So sorry.

[45:49] Eliza Gunther: So we're just rambling.

[45:51] Toby Francis: No, it's great.

[45:53] Toby Francis: But whether it be within the arts or teaching or in life, what's something that you would really love to achieve in the coming years?

[46:06] Toby Francis: I want to achieve a doctorate in education. I want to write a novel, which I'm working on. I want to write, there's a whole bunch of projects that I'm working on with some friends, which is like writing, you know, musicals or helping develop musicals or helping develop other people develop musicals, giving them that space. I don't have anything concrete, I just try and do a lot of stuff and see what sticks, which really helps for my ADHD. Which kind of leads me to what I think the best advice is that just do things. Like, I've been at this stage and in particular lockdown, which has been a real motherfucker, because I'm 33, and I'm aging out of my bracket in casting. Like, if Kinky Boots were to come now, I might be cast as Charlie, but it probably wouldn't be.

It would be someone younger than me. And I'm moving into a different bracket. That doesn't mean my career's over, it just means you move brackets. And so there's this nostalgia I have for everything that's happened up until now, like all the, I've been very blessed to work overseas and things like that. But I was thinking about it and I think that's the way it always is. Is every stage of your life, you look back on it and you go, I've done some incredible things, but that's all over now. And we all kind of think that there's not more coming. There's always this feeling that there's not more coming, and the only way more things, but there is always more stuff coming. I thought after Kinky Boots, this is all over now.

And then I thought after High Fidelity, this is all over now. And I thought after Once, this is all over now. And I thought, you know, not that it was sad. There was this bittersweetness, but it's never, it's never all over now. It's not. It's like you just do something else, or someone gives you a call and an opportunity comes up. And I think we get caught in this thing of going, what's the right move? And there aren't really any right moves. There's no right moves, just do stuff. Like everything has become a side hustle. Like people, like I've started making and selling candles, and that's great. I've got a friend, someone I went to uni with who's doing really, really well with the candle business.

Make incredible, beautiful candles, Hunter Candles, Viani Hunter. And I'm not saying people shouldn't start a business, but when did this idea of commodifying everything happen? Like whatever fucking happened to just having a hobby that cost you money and didn't provide you anything except joy? Like you don't, people are like, I'm gonna start making candles and that'll make me money. It's like, it's not a failure if it doesn't make you money if you enjoy making candles. I'm so, I'm gonna get a hobby that costs me a fuckload of money that provides me nothing but joy, and that's gonna be making model trains when I'm older, I think. I don't know, so like, so all the advice, there's always stuff coming, so not everything.

You should have a balance between a focus on professional development and just doing shit. So that's where I'm kind of at at the moment is like there are things I want to do professionally that I hope fruit and become wonderful things or lead to new experiences, which they will because that's the way the industry works. Is you do stuff, you get more stuff, and someone sees something, and something that didn't sell tickets might get you an opportunity later. But mostly, what do I want to achieve? I just want to do stuff that makes me happy. And at the moment, that's studying at university and being challenged by ideas and being challenged by the generation younger than I am. I never thought this would happen.

I never thought this would happen. I never thought I would be the guy who was like, this younger generation, they don't understand. And I'm not that guy, but sometimes my brain does that. Like, I will be challenged by the younger generation's politics because I'm like, that's a bit much, it's gone a bit far. But then when you really unpack and what they're talking about and play the ball rather than playing the emotion, you realize that that defensiveness is actually just being challenged by younger people, just like the generation above me was challenged by me. Like, my parents were challenged by me and my politics, and now I'm that guy. I'm the old guy who's in a uni class. No, and Demetra and things like that where you go, I have to take a step back and be humble enough to sort of go.

What's happening is you're being challenged because your politics are old. Your politics are old politics. So I'm just hoping that's what I want. That's what I want for next, is just something new and something different that makes me happy. We are all still learning and growing and finding opportunities to understand different aspects of life, politics, you know, living, being happy, balanced, and all of that.

[50:52] Eliza Gunther: So that was some really, really great advice. Thank you so much for everything that you have said today. We've really appreciated having you on. It's been awesome.

[50:59] Toby Francis: No, thanks for having me on.

[51:01] Eliza Gunther: Before we leave, though, before we get going, we would love to do a bit of a bedtime story.

[51:07] Toby Francis: I feel like all of these have been bedtime stories.

[51:09] Toby Francis: I've just been waffling. I'm so sorry.

[51:11] Eliza Gunther: This has to specifically be then something that went wrong.

[51:16] Toby Francis: Oh, okay. Well, there's a whole bunch of stuff that went wrong. Once I grew in a beard and it was patchy, and that seems to be sorting itself out. But no, no, I'll joke. Here's a story from We Will Rock You. We were on stage, and for three nights in a row, this thing happened. First time it happened, we were doing We Will Rock You, the song. And the music director queued it differently, or there was something wrong with the file, or something happened. It might not have been the music director's fault. I shouldn't throw them under the bus. But something might have happened with an issue. And I was halfway through the verse, and in We Will Rock You, because the sound of like the we well, we will rock you comes from, there's like a vocal backing track because it comes from the ether.

So like the sound comes from anywhere. So it's not cheap, it's just like it's part of the show. But that came in in the middle of my verse. And the first time it happened, I was like, okay. And then the next night, it happened again. So something was up with the file, and I went and talked to a musical director. He didn't know what was going on. He was like, I'm not sure what's happening. We're like, okay, okay, good, let's get fixed. Then the next night, I was singing really like leaning into it, and it happened again. It happened again. And apparently, I went, what the fuck? And then I don't remember doing that. That's not my habit to do that. I don't, no one in the audience heard it. It wasn't in a show report.

No one saw it. But like Wayne Scott Kermond, who was on stage with me, was going, hey, ho, hey, like trying to cover it up, and Kelsey started sort of skipping around the stage. We got it back into the chorus and the second verse. So that was a bigger...

[53:19] Eliza Gunther: Did you have to stop singing?

[53:20] Toby Francis: Yeah, I had to stop singing every single time. I would have to stop singing to come into the new verse.

[53:24] Eliza Gunther: That's crazy.

[53:25] Toby Francis: It would just be so frustrating because it's like, it's not even like a, ah shit, like the MD has messed up. It's just like a technical difficulty that is just like...

[53:31] Eliza Gunther: Yeah, well, that's the thing.

[53:35] Toby Francis: Most of the time mistakes happen. It's not really anyone's fault, really. Like some shit just happens. And then, you know, I remember once on Kinky Boots, in the mid after Lola's big number in the second act, someone stood up, was very drunk, and was like, I love you, you Niketa be who you are. It was like really mental. Can I say mental? Like they, because that person wasn't having a mental health episode as far as I know, they were just drunk. But yeah, and they had to be like escorted out.

[54:13] Eliza Gunther: I mean, that's a fed call to be escorting someone out if they just like... I feel like there's a time and place for that kind of thing.

[54:24] Eliza Gunther: But for anyone listening, obviously, you can follow Toby on social media such as Instagram at Toby the Francis for updates on, I guess, just your life and what you're doing and any shows we can catch once we're out of this Panini press. But thank you all so, so much for being here and thank you again, Toby, for being here with us. But until next time, you guys, stay happy, healthy, and safe, and we will see you then.

[54:54] Toby Francis: Bye!

[54:54] Eliza Gunther: Bye everyone!