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[0:06] Gordon Cox: Welcome to Stagecraft, Variety's Theatre Podcast, bringing you backstage and behind the scenes with the stars, creators, and industry leaders on Broadway and beyond.

[0:16] Gordon Cox: I'm your host, Gordon Cox.

[0:18] Gordon Cox: On this episode of Stagecraft, I'm talking to the actor Debra Messing.

[0:22] Gordon Cox: For most people, Messing won't need much of an introduction, thanks to Will and Grace, the long-running NBC sitcom in which she starred for 11 seasons across 22 years.

[0:31] Gordon Cox: Theater fans, though, might think of her first as the playwright Julia Houston from NBC's short-lived but long enduring backstage Broadway melodrama Smash'.

[0:42] Gordon Cox: And coming up, she'll appear in the Netflix movie adaptation of Jason Robert Brown's musical 13.

[0:47] Gordon Cox: Right now, though, she's back on Broadway, playing the lead role in Noah Heidel's play, Birthday Candles.

[0:53] Gordon Cox: Messing is in the virtual studio with me to talk aging on stage without the assistance of makeup or costume changes, performing for a live studio audience as compared to performing for a Broadway audience, and what she knows about what's next for Smash'.

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[1:47] Gordon Cox: So visit Variety.com/slash marketing summit and register today.

[1:52] Gordon Cox: Hey Debra, thanks for joining me.

[1:55] Debra Messing: Hey, it's great to be here.

[1:57] Gordon Cox: So, Birthday Candles is a project that you've been attached to for years now.

[2:02] Gordon Cox: You were in rehearsals for what would have been the spring 2020 Broadway production of the show when the shutdown hit.

[2:13] Gordon Cox: Um, first of all, I guess before we talk about what kept you attached to the project, how did you first get involved?

[2:21] Debra Messing: The project started in 2018 at the Detroit Public Theater.

[2:31] Debra Messing: And Noah Heidel, the playwright, asked Vivian Benish, who ended up directing the Broadway play to do the workshop.

[2:40] Debra Messing: And the two of them went through several iterations together.

[2:44] Debra Messing: And then when the Roundabout asked to have a reading, they were trying to think who they wanted to ask to do the reading.

[2:55] Debra Messing: And ironically, it wasn't Vivian who was my classmate in the MFA program at Tisch.

[3:06] Debra Messing: Oh wow.

[3:07] Debra Messing: Um, it was Noah who turned to her and said, Weren't you classmates with Debra Messing?

[3:13] Debra Messing: And she said, Oh my god, she's perfect.

[3:16] Debra Messing: So I got an email from her saying, I know you're busy, you know, here's this play.

[3:22] Debra Messing: We would love for you to read. Give it a read and see if you feel like you want to do it.

[3:28] Debra Messing: And I read it and I laughed out loud and I sobbed, and I immediately called her back and I said, I'm in, I'm in forever.

[3:39] Debra Messing: For as long as you have me, I'm in.

[3:41] Gordon Cox: Yeah. Was the way the original production was originally scheduled?

[3:47] Gordon Cox: It was would have happened sort of right as you had just wrapped up the kind of return run of Will and Grace.

[3:53] Gordon Cox: Is stage something or Broadway something that was kind of on your mind to get back to specifically, or was it really the project that called you back?

[4:01] Debra Messing: Oh, uh, both, really.

[4:04] Debra Messing: I mean, I, you know, I would say that theater is my first love.

[4:10] Debra Messing: Um, it was always my plan to have a life in theater if I was lucky enough to be able to be a journeyman.

[4:19] Debra Messing: That was my goal when I got out of graduate school.

[4:24] Debra Messing: Um, my life took me to Los Angeles for a chunk of time, and I was always looking for a way to get back on stage in New York.

[4:38] Debra Messing: Um, I ultimately got back on doing Outside Mullingar by John Patrick Shanley, which I loved doing.

[4:47] Debra Messing: Um, but there were several projects prior to that that I was offered that we were trying to make work with the schedule, and it just never happened.

[4:57] Debra Messing: So I think it's fair to say I've been frustrated for many, many, many years.

[5:02] Debra Messing: Um, then obviously when I fell in love with this script, I just was very myopic.

[5:15] Debra Messing: I just was like, we have to do this, we have to do this.

[5:20] Gordon Cox: And do you have a sense of because you were, you know, in rehearsals and forming your character in 2020?

[5:26] Gordon Cox: Do you have a sense of how Ernestine, the character you play, how your Ernestine now is different than she was the one you were playing back in 2020?

[5:38] Debra Messing: I think the whole play is different due to the pandemic.

[5:45] Debra Messing: I think that when we returned, we all looked at each other, and the very first thing we said is, okay, we have to acknowledge that we are all different people than we were two years ago.

[5:59] Debra Messing: Um, and that sort of freed us up to not have to try to replicate what we were doing.

[6:09] Debra Messing: We were in our second week of rehearsal, you know, looking toward tech.

[6:15] Debra Messing: I would say that the moments that explore loss and breach of connection, um, the surprise tragedies that happen in life, I think that the pandemic made all of those moments feel very present and very relevant.

[6:47] Debra Messing: And so I think we all just dropped into it on a deeper level.

[6:58] Gordon Cox: And what's it been like for you all?

[7:01] Gordon Cox: You're back with almost the entirety of the cast that would have been in the 2020 production.

[7:06] Gordon Cox: What's it been like for you all to finally get to do it on stage?

[7:10] Debra Messing: Oh my god, it's heaven.

[7:12] Debra Messing: We are so happy.

[7:16] Debra Messing: Um, every day we warm up together at 7:15 before half hour, and we come together in a circle to wish each other a good show.

[7:31] Debra Messing: And we are just constantly looking at each other and saying, we are the luckiest actors alive, because this group of actors, they're extraordinarily talented, number one, and they're incredible, incredibly generous collaborators, and we all have a similar vocabulary, I think is fair to say, acting vocabulary.

[8:01] Debra Messing: And it just feels like home.

[8:05] Debra Messing: There is nothing about this experience that I would want to change.

[8:12] Debra Messing: And I'm pretty confident that if you asked any of the cast members, they would say the same thing, which you know is a rare thing to be able to say.

[8:23] Debra Messing: And so I think that every day, you know, we look at each other and say, okay, this is as good as it gets.

[8:30] Debra Messing: So we are going to enjoy every minute of this because we all know it's a limited run.

[8:39] Debra Messing: Um, yeah, but it's I would say this is a role of my lifetime, and I would say that this is the theatrical experience of my life.

[8:51] Debra Messing: And it's literally the role of a lifetime in that you live an entire lifetime over the course of you know, whatever it is, a hundred minutes or something.

[8:59] Debra Messing: Um, you go from 17 to 107, is that right?

[9:03] Gordon Cox: Um, tell me a little bit about the aging.

[9:07] Gordon Cox: It's a thing that you do without, you know, makeup and you don't really have any costume changes or anything.

[9:11] Gordon Cox: You just sort of you're there on stage getting older.

[9:13] Gordon Cox: Tell us a little bit about sort of how you approached that and what you found.

[9:19] Debra Messing: Well aging 90 years and 90 minutes was the thing that excited me the most about the challenge.

[9:31] Debra Messing: Um, it made me feel like I was back in graduate school, where for better or for worse, our instructors made us feel like we could do anything.

[9:44] Debra Messing: And in my third year, I was actually cast as an 86-year-old woman in a Harold Pinter play.

[9:54] Debra Messing: And one of my teachers said, I think that's the best work you've done.

[9:59] Debra Messing: And so it just made me feel like okay, I'm going back into transformational art, which is the thing that excites me the most and inspires me the most.

[10:13] Debra Messing: It also terrified me.

[10:16] Debra Messing: Um, because my goal was for the audience to experience my aging very gently, that there wouldn't, there would, except of course from 17 to 39, that there wouldn't be any jarring changes because there is a dreamlike quality to the play.

[10:39] Debra Messing: I wanted my aging to sort of reflect that.

[10:44] Debra Messing: Um, but I had a lot of help.

[10:47] Debra Messing: I spoke with my vocal teacher, Liz Kaplan, who helps me with singing, but I said, you know, I want you to explain to me what happens to the larynx as we age.

[11:02] Debra Messing: And it was fascinating.

[11:05] Debra Messing: I learned so much from her about what happens during puberty, what happens during menopause, how each stage of life in a woman's life, what happens to their voice.

[11:16] Debra Messing: So that was sort of I would say the building block, like the structure from which I was going to try and fill.

[11:28] Debra Messing: And then I visited an old age home and interviewed two people who were over a hundred, which was just fascinating.

[11:43] Debra Messing: And uh I feel so grateful that they gave me their time. And then I watched a bunch of YouTube um videos of interviews with people who were a hundred years and older. Um that was really uh delightful, but also uh instructive. And you know, there are many many things that happen in this play. So I also research, you know, bipolar disorder and what happens to a family when they experience a suicide, and um what happens when a family has to deal with dementia or a stroke um so all of those things I I sort of put into different sort of um subjects in my my self-made school of okay I'm going to explore this today I'm gonna look into this and um and in terms of my body I I met with my physical therapist I actually was in a bad car accident several years ago and um so you know my my neck is a mess and I my my lower back is messed up from all the physical comedy from Will and Grace because when you're 30 you're like I'm gonna throw my body into this um but I was I was able to talk with her again about you know how the body degrades you know starting with 30 and learning that you know from 30 to 35 is a huge jump in the body's degrading and so you know where in the body things would start to get stuck things that you know where gravity would um sort of win out and um all of that made me feel comfortable and secure to then just do it.

To just, you know, and and I couldn't really find it until we started doing run-throughs. And um, I I turned to our director and Vivian, and I said, you know, you are my eyes, so you have to help, you have to help me in terms of the aging. And you know, when I we first started doing it, she would say, you age too quickly. And I was like, Oh, oh, okay. And she was like, No, you have to wait until your voice from this to this was too much of a jump. And um, so it was fascinating to work internally, but also externally. Is there a quick and sort of uh way to give us a sense of what the through line is for your voice or your body in terms of you know, you mentioned where your thing where things start to break down for people, like where does Ernestine start to break down?

[15:04] Debra Messing: Yeah, I mean, you know, when you meet Ernestine, she has a very strong solid voice, um, and is very physically adept. Um, you know, she she talks quickly, she she runs around the stage easily. Um, and I would say by 50, I think that as an audience member, you really notice from 39 to 50. Um, I think you start to notice, oh, she's she's she's slowing down and her gait is changing. Um, and my voice uh would would slowly become less less solid. Um and I would say that another another tell would be when I got into my 80s, the the the voice goes much higher because of what happens to the vocal folds. And so it was a matter of you know, finding that upper range that was lighter and breathier, but could also be heard.

Um, you know, that that was a challenge. And then by the end of, you know, at 107, I'm I'm basically at a 90 degrees as I'm walking. Um, and that was actually somebody I saw on the sidewalk. And I couldn't believe it. Um yeah, yeah, I just slowly sort of folding over, and the the gait sort of changing um pace and also the the weight of this the footsteps.

[17:05] Gordon Cox: I'll have more with Debra right after the break.

[17:15] Gordon Cox: And now here's more with the actor, Debra Messing. You spent years on Will and Grace performing in front of a live studio audience. How much is that similar or different to the experience of performing live for a Broadway audience?

[17:33] Debra Messing: The reason why I love doing Will and Grace was because outside of the theater, it is the the medium that is most closely experienced at as a theatrical experience because it is in front of a live audience, because there are several cameras, and those cameras are far away. And so you don't ever have to play to a camera or minimize yourself for film. I mean, that with Will and Grace, you know, we would only get, we would only run through a a scene once or twice, and then they would run out and say, okay, cut this line, cut this, cut this, cut this. This is your new joke, your new joke, your new joke. And so literally it was like improv in a way, because I would say 25% of what you see on television, we're saying those lines for the first time.

But um, you know, we knew when a joke worked and when it didn't. And um, similarly, there are you know, moments in the play, uh, and we're able to sort of define what kind of audience we have based on their reactions to those moments. Um but that's that's really it. There's there's really there's really nothing like it, you know. It's it it it's it's the it's the coming together and working as uh a unit that makes it so magical and so special because when you're working on a film or a single camera television show, inevitably that camera is just gonna be very you know inches away from your face, and the whole point of that shot is just what you do and has nothing to do with anybody else that you're acting with.

And they often take the actor away from you because you can't even see it. So um it it feels it feels less um, it feels less like art to me, and uh it feels more like uh a craft, a certain skill set that you need to have. But you know, the fulfillment of finding the character and living in the character. Um I mean, I lived, I lived with Grace 11 years, and and I and already, you know, my experience of Ernestine is is far more satisfying than Grace. And is that a function of living sequentially or living or re-experiencing, or do you have a sense of why that why that connection is so much deeper for you and the character?

[21:11] Debra Messing: I guess I would say because she ages 90 years and because she goes through so much, um, you know, I it it it forces me to consider things that I normally I'm not asked to consider when it's just one role that is based in one moment in time. Um so I think I I feel it. I feel it very deeply. The thing that I think is magical about this play is it seems to make people feel like it's incredibly personal to them. So when I read it, I was crying because I was thinking about my mother. And I was like, oh, this this play is it's it's was written for me, you know. And then, but every night when I come off stage and I see audience members and they're crying, or they're you know, or they're laughing and they say, Oh my god, that was my grandmother up there, or oh my god, we went through that. That that really that really hit home. I think that's sort of the the genius of what Noah has has sort of laid out.

[22:31] Gordon Cox: Okay. Because this is a theater podcast, we have to talk about Smash' for just a second. Um it is of course something that has a really rabid following, particularly among theater folks, among probably a lot of people who are coming to see uh Birthday Candles. What's been your experience of that fandom, which has lasted way beyond the lifespan of that show?

[22:52] Debra Messing: I know. Um I love Smash' so much I can't even put into words um being able to play a character where it's my job to sit behind a table and watch real Broadway actors sing and dance in front of me for hours on end I mean I I should have been paying them to for the opportunity to do that uh so I never wanted it to end but um yeah in some way I think there is an overlap in terms of you know the audience for Will and Grace and the audience for Smash' in that I think the fans of Smash' felt unrepresented prior to Smash' and um you know or diminished or judged for choosing a life in the theater and um I mean I I I could I I don't think it's it's it's a stretch to say that that most people who choose this life at some point someone very close to them um makes you feel like this choice is kind of like you don't want to grow up you don't want to have a real job um and Smash' was like uh the Wizard of Oz it pulled the curtain back and you were able to see everything that goes into it and the raw talent that is required and and the business aspect of it and how complicated it is.

[26:41] Debra Messing: Um, and I think that's why it has such a rabid fan base.

[26:41] Gordon Cox: Yeah.

[26:41] Debra Messing: Do you still get asked about your character's scarves, for instance, and all the—

[26:41] I don't, and I will always defend her scarves. I will always defend them. She was a Brooklyn mom at a certain time, and you know, from the beginning, they wanted something to sort of make her stand out as someone who was not a performer. Um, but I do think it's funny that there were such strong feelings about all of her scarves. Um, it is funny.

[26:41] It's—I feel like there are a lot of people who like to dunk on that show, and people love that show, and they are often the same people, right? Like, it's—yes, it's because I feel like they're so attached to the subject matter that they have very strong opinions, I think.

[26:41] Gordon Cox: Yes, yes.

[26:41] Debra Messing: I mean, you know, I feel like when somebody creates a world, when someone creates a, you know, a universe such as the people in the world of Smash', that they should do what they think is the journey of all of these characters. And if it doesn't work, we all say we did our best.

[26:41] Um, I don't think it ever really works to fire the person who created the show after a year and bring someone on who had nothing to do with the show to run it. Um, because it made it feel like two different shows, two different years. It confused our audience, and um, I think that that was the reason why it failed.

[26:50] Um, yeah, but you know, we still, you know, have joked about, okay, if they want to do like a Smash' movie, I'm in.

[27:01] Gordon Cox: Right, you know.

[27:03] Debra Messing: I mean, or a return like a Will & Grace return, right?

[27:06] Gordon Cox: Or yeah, yes, where are they now?

[27:09] Debra Messing: Of course. And um, you know, Bob Greenblatt and Neil Marin are working on a Broadway musical adaptation of this. Do you know anything about that? Are you involved in that? Would you want to be involved in this?

[27:19] Debra Messing: I am so excited. I mean, I obviously, while we were shooting Smash', everyone was looking at each other and was like, okay, when is this gonna be a Broadway show? So it was just a matter of time and a matter of finding the right book writer.

[27:34] Um, but um, I've spoken to Bob, and I have some insight into what the show will be.

[27:43] Gordon Cox: Um, you tell us about—

[27:43] Debra Messing: No, yeah, I think I'm not involved in it. Um, but I am very, very, very excited to see it.

[27:57] Gordon Cox: Do you—if someone were to say, hey, we're doing karaoke and we want you to sing a song from Smash', which one would you sing? What's your favorite song?

[28:06] Debra Messing: Oh gosh. Um, assuming I could sing it.

[28:12] Gordon Cox: Sure, absolutely.

[28:14] Debra Messing: Yeah.

[28:22] It's—it's the 11 o'clock, you know, song that Megan Hilty sings that just keeps modulating up and up and up.

[28:32] I mean, it just—I remember we shot that in the plaza, and I remember sitting at the piano and watching her do it over and over and over again. And I just felt Christian and I both just sort of levitate with just absolute excitement and shock about what she was doing, you know.

[28:51] It's just—and that's, you know, that's Shaman and Whitman.

[28:56] Gordon Cox: Yeah, yeah.

[28:57] Debra Messing: Um, speaking of singing, you're in a new musical that is coming out on Netflix sometime this summer, I believe, late summer, um, 13. Um, tell us a little bit about your involvement in that. Did you see the show back when it was on Broadway?

[29:11] Debra Messing: I never saw it.

[29:13] I did not. Um, I obviously knew Neil from Smash', and I was informed that they were expanding the book and including a few adults, um, namely his mother and his grandmother and his father.

[29:36] And um, they wanted me to play the mother, and they said, and you'll be singing. And I sang in Dirty Dancing, the remake of Dirty Dancing, and that was really scary and exciting, and I just thought, you know what, I'm still scared to do it, so let's do it. Um, and we ended up going up during, you know, right in the middle of the pandemic in Toronto where things were really locked down. Um, and I spent a couple of weeks with, you know, all of these kids who were so talented and so just green and fresh, and you know, you just could see the dreams that they have for their future, and uh, it was amazing. It really was amazing, and I got to do a duet with my son, and uh, I can't wait to see it.

[30:43] It comes out um, August 12th.

[30:45] Gordon Cox: Great, yeah. Um, and you're gonna be on, uh, in Birthday Candles until May 29th, and Tony season is coming up. How do you—what's your feeling about, you know, award seasons and competition and all that stuff? How do you deal with it?

[30:45] Debra Messing: Oh boy. Um, I guess I would say I hope that my work just speaks for itself, you know? I mean, I've been watching the Tonys since I was a kid, and as an adult, I don't think I've ever been aware of there being campaigns for Tony nominations, at least, you know, not as a non-Tony voter.

[31:38] Not in the same way that it does for the Emmys and the Oscars, where it's very concerted. But the fact that we're even having a conversation with the term the Tonys in it, it really is a dream come true.

[32:04] I mean, I know that's a cliché, but um, it is, it is, and what's next for you after Birthday Candles?

[32:04] Debra Messing: Oh boy, I'm gonna sleep and um, take my son to college, um, and I am developing a TV show that would shoot on the East Coast, um, and just reading scripts and, uh, you know, my agents, I would say, might be a little frustrated with me right now because my standards are so high in terms of the kind of character that I am able to sink my teeth into that, you know, what they send for film where it's like, no, that's not very exciting to me, you know? It's hard to go to that from Ernestine.

[32:04] But from the time I graduated from NYU, I've always been that way where I'm like, the script is the thing. It's always the thing, and it's worth waiting for.

[33:27] And so I'm just gonna continue to do what I've always done, which is, you know, just continue to try and learn and grow and um, and hope that my work will somehow produce opportunities that are varied in the future.

[33:55] Gordon Cox: Well, we will look forward to the script that gets you back on stage again after me.

[33:55] Thanks so much, Debra. Thanks for your time. Great to talk to you.

[33:55] Debra Messing: Thank you so much. It was great talking with you.

[33:55] Gordon Cox: That was Debra Messing, now starring on Broadway in Birthday Candles. If you like what you're hearing on this and other episodes of Stagecraft, I'd really appreciate it if you took the time to rate and review us wherever you listen to podcasts.

[34:26] It really helps us grow our audience of folks who love theater as much as you and I do. Or tell a friend about Stagecraft or give us a shout out on social media. Find past episodes and subscribe on all the pod places, including Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and on the Broadway Podcast Network, which is a great place to find more theater for your ears.

[34:45] Until next episode, find me on Twitter at Gcox Variety. Thanks for listening, and see you at the theater.