This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:06] Gordon Cox: Welcome to Stagecraft, Variety's Theater Podcast.

[0:10] Gordon Cox: Your backstage pass to revealing conversations with stars, creators, industry leaders, and influencers.

[0:16] Gordon Cox: On Broadway, off Broadway, and beyond.

[0:18] Gordon Cox: I'm Gordon Cox.

[0:20] Gordon Cox: On this episode of Stagecraft, how to be a theater influencer.

[0:24] Gordon Cox: Or at least how two theater super fans with social media followings became influencers, and what exactly it is that an influencer does anyway.

[0:33] Gordon Cox: In this conversation, Kristin Hopkins and Ashley Hufford spill the behind the reels details, how it works, how many of their tickets are free, how long they spend creating their theater content, and just how much money there is in theater influencing.

[0:46] Gordon Cox: Spoiler for that last one, not much at all.

[0:48] Gordon Cox: But there are plenty of other perks, and Hopkins, an entertainment lawyer by day, and Hufford, a video content editor, are both in the virtual studio with me to tell us all about it.

[0:58] Gordon Cox: Just a note, this conversation was recorded last month, which explains a reference to making plans to see a Broadway show that has since closed.

[1:05] Gordon Cox: Now, here's Kristin and Ashley.

[1:09] Gordon Cox: Hello, Kristin and Ashley.

[1:11] Kristin Hopkins: Thanks for joining me.

[1:12] Ashley Hufford: Hey.

[1:13] Kristin Hopkins: Hi, thank you for having us.

[1:14] Ashley Hufford: Excited to be here.

[1:15] Kristin Hopkins: Me too.

[1:16] Gordon Cox: So when you get asked what you do for a living, what do you tell them?

[1:21] Gordon Cox: Kristin, let's start with you.

[1:23] Kristin Hopkins: What do I tell them?

[1:24] Gordon Cox: Yeah.

[1:25] Kristin Hopkins: I say that I'm a lawyer who loves theater.

[1:29] Gordon Cox: Okay.

[1:30] Gordon Cox: Yeah. And then Ashley, what do you say?

[1:33] Ashley Hufford: Uh, I'm not a lawyer, but I do I my day job is I work, I'm a video editor, uh, content, like producer for my day job, unrelated to this. And then I also just say I'm a theater person. I like I love going to the theater. I love seeing theater.

[1:47] Gordon Cox: Yeah. And so then what percentage of your time would you say is taken up by your work in the theater and sort of posting about theater and you know being influencers about theater?

[2:01] Ashley Hufford: I would say it depends on the week. I probably see like four to five shows a month on average. And so, you know, I guess if each show is what two and a half, three hours, two and a half, or say three times five is 15 hours. And then depending upon, I don't always post about the show. Um if I feel inclined, if I feel led, I will definitely like make a TikTok or I will post, I will definitely post on my Instagram stories, but sometimes posting on TikTok, it depends on how I feel. And if I have very strong feelings about the show, then I will. And that can sometimes take a long time. Recording, figuring out what I want to say. I like to do, I like to go like online and look at um the playwright or the creator's intent of the show and like make sure what I feel about it aligns. And if it doesn't, why doesn't it? Um sometimes that takes a little bit of extra time. So it can vary depending upon the show that I see.

[2:55] Gordon Cox: Yeah, yeah. And Ashley, what about you?

[2:57] Ashley Hufford: Um, it is a lot of my time. But I go to the I go to the theater almost every night of the week. Like most nights I'm at the theater. Uh, which is wild. And I think my parents think I'm nuts, but I just it's I have kind of it's I don't know. I've built this whole like community around it when it comes to like my friends who I've met like through the apps, even like yes, last night I ran into Kristin at the theater, which is just and we had never met before, and we're both at Hades Town. It was just very funny.

[3:31] Kristin Hopkins: It's like great.

[3:33] Ashley Hufford: Yeah, it was amazing. And like tonight I'm seeing a play at BAM. And then Sunday I'm seeing two shows. I'm seeing Here We Are at the Shed, and then I'm seeing Public Obscenities at like T Fam. Like it just, it's very much become like my like I joke that I'm like, I have a job that like supports my theater habit.

[3:52] Gordon Cox: Right. Right. And so yeah, how did you start doing this? How did you uh how did you what was the beginnings of this? And then how did it sort of expand from there?

[4:04] Ashley Hufford: So I've always posted about the shows that I went to I have that I go and see. Um and even before like theater influencing was a thing, I went back on my Instagram stories back to like 2018, 2019, and I was like posting to all my friends to my like 900 followers who like don't even really live in New York. Like, if you want to come and see this show, if you come during this time, you can get this much off your tickets and just like just telling, you know, the ether, like nobody ever listening to me and about this. Um, and then I will say that I did go on The Bachelor in 2020. So I did get a blue check mark. And so I do think that with the little blue check mark, people started noticing that I was going to the theater more often and tagging shows, and they're like, Oh, we can get her to post um about these shows. But it was just a natural thing that I was gonna be posting about theater regardless of if I went on this show anyways.

[4:57] Gordon Cox: Right. Yeah. Are you where are you from, Kristin? Is you did you was theater going a thing that you did when you grew up or it was, yeah.

[5:03] Kristin Hopkins: So I grew up in Virginia Beach. Um, my mom is actually on the radio back home in Virginia, and so she gets a lot of uh press passes to different shows, concerts, and so our you know, our the place where we got to see all of you know I know the Broadway tours, they would provide her with tickets, and so ever since I was little, I was seeing all the tours. Um, and so I just saw shows all the time. So it's just like a natural thing in our family.

[5:29] Gordon Cox: Yeah, got it. And what about for you, Ashley? How did you get started?

[5:31] Ashley Hufford: Yeah, so I grew up about 45 minutes outside of New York City, uh, in the burbs. Uh, and theater was always just something that like every birthday, every like that was just the thing that like my parents knew I liked, so I'd get to go to the shows, and then um I went to NYU for undergrad and I started seeing a ton of like student theater because that's when you could literally go to like Spring Awakening and get like a 20 ticket. And it was like I was so for like a long time I was just like I would see a lot of theater. Um, and then it was during COVID that I started kind of like really like I'd always posted similar to what you were saying, like I'd post like, oh, I saw this, like and I in 2017, so pre like all of this, um, I started like see a show a week every week of 2020 of 2017.

So I like made this goal, I'd post about it, I saw a show every single week. Like, and it didn't have to be Broadway, it could be Broadway, off Broadway, like regional community. I think I like my brother's like middle school production of like Peter Pan. Like I counted that one week.

[6:27] Kristin Hopkins: Yeah, I get yeah, right.

[6:28] Ashley Hufford: And so that's when I started really like seeing a lot of theater. So I think I saw like 56 shows that year, then the next year I saw like 75 shows. Uh and then I saw a hundred shows the year after, and then COVID hit. Um, and during COVID, I was just like everyone home, bored, doing nothing. And so I just started making videos where I the first video that like I did that kind of blew up, and it was for a long time, it was just like for myself. Like it was like I had like 10 followers on TikTok and I'd make like be talking about theater. And I did a video of me organizing all my playbills because I had like hundreds of playbills. And that was like the first video that kind of like I got, I think it was like like 400,000 views, and I gained like six thousand followers overnight. And I was like, oh people like theater.

[7:13] Kristin Hopkins: Yeah.

[7:15] Gordon Cox: And that was actually one of my questions for you. Is what where are theater goers on what platforms are theater goers most active?

[7:25] Ashley Hufford: I uh you know, I see most of your stuff on Instagram because that is the thing that I'm most uh that I go to most. But I I know you're both on TikTok and like where do you how do you strategize like where you post and how often you post there?

[7:41] Kristin Hopkins: So for me, I will post like a review of me like talking um on TikTok. So I feel like that's just the better platform to like talk about longer things. Um when I do post on Instagram, like in my stories, or I'll make a reel. If I really like a show on Instagram, I'll make a reel. Like if I really, really like it, the reel is going. Um, but I normally will post in my stories, and I will just give like a general kind of a couple of words about the show, how I felt. If I felt really strongly, I will get on my stories in rant. And if you go through some of my highlights, you can see a couple of my rants on a show. Um but it just depends on how how I'm feeling. But if I'm doing like a full review, it's gonna go on TikTok.

[8:19] Gordon Cox: On TikTok, right?

[8:20] Kristin Hopkins: Yeah, and what about for you, Ashley?

[8:22] Ashley Hufford: Yeah, TikTok is the main, I mean, I would say theater in general, like is still very Twitter focused. Like theater Twitter is like very, very, very active. Um, but uh when it comes to my personal content, like I use everything, but TikTok is the main thing. I do a vlog for every show, which I wouldn't say is so much sometimes a review, but it's more of just like the experience. I'll like it's like I try to keep it like I wouldn't call it like a theater criticism. Like it's like I'll just do like join me at the theater. Here's what I'm doing. Like, like here's who's in it. Here's what it's about. Like, maybe like, you know, I saw trying to think of anything that I've ever seen. Hades Town. Uh you know, Jordan Fisher, new Orpheus, he's incredible.

Like, one of, you know, it that kind of stuff, right? Try to like bring people sort of in to the experience of going to the theater and talk about the shows and then and to encourage people to just get more people to the theater. Because like one of the things that I'm passionate about is like people going to see theater and and making it accessible and also being like, I get a lot of people that were like, oh, I didn't think I liked theater, and then I like saw this show. And I'm like, yeah, like there's a show for everybody. And I think that's the thing people get kind of, they think every musical is like Oklahoma. And you're like, no, no, no. There's like so much more.

[9:32] Kristin Hopkins: So much.

[9:33] Ashley Hufford: And and it depends on which Oklahoma you're seeing, right?

[9:37] Kristin Hopkins: And I love I loved both, I loved both regular Oklahoma and sexy Oklahoma. I was introduced.

[9:42] Gordon Cox: Right. Right. And so how does the work of your work as an influencer sort of pick up momentum? Like at what point did you feel like you started to get noticed by shows or producers or marketers? Like, how does that work? Are you contacted? Who are you contacted by to work in partnership with? And like tell me about sort of the specifics of some of that.

[10:06] Kristin Hopkins: Oh yeah, I would just started to get some um emails into my inbox that I have, you know, my email is on my Instagram. Um, and I would just get emails with like a ticket request, and I'd be like, oh, this is cute, this is fun. Um and then I would just get more, or they would like DM me on Instagram and be like, hi, like, do you want to come to this event tonight? Or something like that. And, you know, it just kind of like kept rolling and kept growing. I started to meet more people in the industry. Um, Ayana, who is incredible, the queen of theater, as I like to call her.

[10:37] Ashley Hufford: Yep.

[10:37] Kristin Hopkins: Yes. She's also a bachelor fan, which is how I met her. And then she was like, Oh, you like Broadway too. And I was like, Yes. So we have become uh like this, and she's great. Um, and then there's another um person who has a bachelor Instagram, but he works at Broadway Crew. Um, and so he's kind of started putting me kind of in the mix. Um and so it's just been a really, really great experience.

[11:00] Gordon Cox: Right. Yeah. And so what about for you, Ashley? How does that work?

[11:02] Ashley Hufford: Yeah, I think the first it was like through an Instagram DM from a show. Like, I'm trying to remember what show it was, but it was like kind of it started at first very slow, and I was like, I can't believe I'm being invited to like go to a show. Like that's so crazy. Like, that's so cool. Uh and then now it's it's a mix. Like, I was always I used to be so hesitant about reaching out because I was like, what is it? They're not gonna want to give me a ticket. Like, and now I when there's something that I really want to see, like, especially if it's like I won't something like Hades Town, like I'm like, they don't need me to go see this show. Like, it's been here for five years, it went to Tony, like I will buy a million tickets to see Hades Town.

But like when it comes to like a new show or like a new musical or especially something like out of town, like I went down to DC um to see Swept Away, and I just sent them an email and I was like, Hey, I'm coming to DC, like would love to see this musical, would love to promote it. Like, and a lot the nice thing about a lot of these things is because if they're not paid, like there's not like necessarily like a content requirement. So, like, and I do like I make content about almost every show that I see, and so I was like, I'll make a video, but like in general, like if they're inviting me to a show, like they're hoping that I'll make a video, they're hoping that I'll post. But like if I see something and I hate it, like I'm not gonna make a video about it because I'm never gonna make like I just personally won't make videos about shows that I like absolutely hate because I just I don't know, it's not like I always think my nightmare is like an actor from that show, like is on TikTok and this sees you being like, and she was terrible, and they're like, Oh no, like I don't know.

[12:26] Kristin Hopkins: That just so in general, like I try to only talk about things that I like really like or really love um on the internet.

[12:34] Ashley Hufford: Yeah, yeah.

[12:35] Kristin Hopkins: And so the offer is often you know, free tickets or come to this event or something.

[12:40] Gordon Cox: Is there compensation ever involved? And how does that work? What is it? Is it like different per request? Or just tell me about kind of some of the uh you know, the kind of setups that can happen as you're working with shows.

[12:53] Kristin Hopkins: I personally have not been paid outside of being invited to the show or to like a pre-show event or like an event that they were having. Um so Ashley, if you have any tips on that, please share.

[13:05] Ashley Hufford: Share the wealth. Yeah, so there's kind of a mix I would say of like, and I get I'm not making a I'm not making tons of money from this, but I you know, so a lot of it's not your day job, right? It's not my day job, and I don't think, and if I wanted it to be my day job, I should have done like beauty influencing, like something that is like has more money. But I pick theater, so that's where I'm at.

[13:25] Kristin Hopkins: Right. Uh I would say the most common is that a show will reach out and be like, Can we boost a video that you've already done? So this is a video that I've already posted, already out there, and they'll pay me like a hundred, fifty hundred dollars to just like boost it. And I for that, like I don't even normally negotiate because I'm like, it's money. This it's a video I've already made and already posted. So I'm like, great, I'll take free money.

[13:47] Kristin Hopkins: Uh and so that what I would say is probably like the most common. Um, but I've also like though this year was the first time that I've ever partnered with the show. So there was a play called The Shark is Broken, it starred Alex Brightman, Colin Donald. Um, and it was it was I really a like I I went to film school, so like I like love jaws, so I was very excited. Like they reached out and I was like, this is actually kind of perfect. Um play that's about Jaws on Broadway, the actors that I love.

[14:10] Kristin Hopkins: Um, and so when it came to that, like I worked with their like marketing PR team and basically pitched them like what a series of videos would look like when it came to me working at the show. And for for that, it was mostly just like things I was already going to do. It was like they invited me to when they opened the box office, and I got to like talk to a bunch of Jaws fans, and then I went to they did a screening of Jaws on a roof, and I went to the screening of Jaws, like, and so it was and then I went to opening night and I got to make a bunch of stuff like with it was just it was very cool.

[14:37] Kristin Hopkins: And they paid me, I think it was like a certain amount of money for like a certain amount of videos. So it was like five videos a month, whatever, for like three months. Uh and that was very, very cool. Um, and again, it wasn't like a ton of money, but it was like something that like I'm like a lot of this is like things I would have not I don't say I would have done for free, because some of it I wouldn't have, but like it's like things that I'm already interested in, already excited about, and getting to like work on a Broadway show and get to go to an opening night was like very very cool for me.

[15:02] Gordon Cox: And I'm still like I'm always like I said, like a geeky theater kid at heart. I'll have more with Kristin and Ashley right after the break.

[15:20] Gordon Cox: And now here's more of my conversation with theater influencers, Kristin Hopkins and Ashley Hufford. One of the things that I always feel like uh, you know, it's often it's true for podcasts as well. They they seem so effortless, and yet similarly, like the kind of posts that you both do, particularly the video posts, like TikTok is just like beyond my brain. Like, but I mean it takes a lot of time, right? Like it's not it's not a thing that you just kind of whip off and uh and and uh you know put out there. So tell me about kind of have you well, first of all, have you like sped up that process at all? Or sort of like how long does a typical post take? And and what are the kind of things that you have to adjust or readjust as you're as you're making it.

[16:05] Kristin Hopkins: I think it depends. If I am just doing like a show, like a TikTok of like come with me and to see this show, um, I will just have like films like outside of the theater, the marquee, kind of, you know, the you know, the stage itself, the bows. That's simple, easy to put together. And I will, you know, talk about the show like very simply. If I am doing a review, that will take a little bit longer. I feel like most of my reviews on TikTok are probably like five minutes plus. Um because I just I have a lot to say sometimes about it. And I like to also like bring up like, oh, I read this interview with the playwright that said X, Y, and Z. Um, and so that can sometimes take a little bit longer to edit, put together. And then if I say something that's like crazy, I'm like, oh, I can't put that out there. So I have to go back and re-record it. And so sometimes they can just take, it can take a while um if I don't have like my thoughts together.

[16:58] Kristin Hopkins: Yeah.

[16:59] Ashley Hufford: Sure.

[16:59] Ashley Hufford: Yeah, so I mean the vlogs I have to like a science, which is basically like I shoot everything in the TikTok app, which some people think is nuts. I find it really easy for me because you can just kind of like shoot it. Like I have every video starts with a pan at the theater, it starts with a shot of the playbill. I can like arrange it all in there, and then I do a voiceover and I can post it. Um and then kind of similarly to what you were saying is that I'm doing like a long, I mean a lot of times, sometimes I'll just do ones where they're off the cuff. Like I went to London and I saw Diana the musical, the concert in London. Uh, and I just did like an eight minute video of me just talking about it. And I didn't like, you know, and and then I went through and kind of sort of edited it and also was like, you know what, this is how I'm feeling right now. Because I was like just feeling so much joy.

[17:41] Ashley Hufford: Um and yeah, and then some of them you like you like, so I had a series for a long time where I would do um, there's this children's book called Ace for Audra that Johnny Allman worked on, and every page is like a different Broadway diva. And so I did a series where I went through every single page of the book and like talked about each diva in the book, and that was one that like took forever because it was like I had to find, I would use and I I'd use all like found footage, I'd go on YouTube, I'd like pull things together, I'd edit like a minute long video and then I'd post it. Um, but I haven't done those in a long time because then COVID ended and I started seeing theater.

[18:13] Kristin Hopkins: I was gonna say that was just a project that you like a self-un, like I said.

[18:17] Ashley Hufford: So it was like a self-fun project that I did like when I was lit again, because I was home for like all of us for months doing like I'm having to do. Uh yeah, yeah.

[18:26] Gordon Cox: And you both have day jobs. How does tell me how the work you do uh sort of, you know, in your enthusiasm for theater and your fandom for theater, how does that overlap or does it overlap at all with kind of what you do during the day? How do they how do they fit together for you?

[18:45] Ashley Hufford: Um, so I'm actually an entertainment lawyer. Um so I am working um with reality TV projects um all day. So, you know, just working in the entertainment industry, it you know feeds over to, you know, Broadway musical's theater. Um, and my team is actually a very like Broadway enthusiastic team.

[19:03] Ashley Hufford: Um, and I feel like somebody in my group will see a show like at least once a week. And so we'll have like a debrief about it. Um, and kind of just talk about it. We're actually planning a trip to go see a show um in two weeks to go see Huddance in Ohio, which I spearheaded. I was like, we're all going to see this show. This is what we're doing.

[19:19] Ashley Hufford: Um, so we're doing that. Um, but I just feel like um also it's very interesting because I do have that I'm an entertainment lawyer in my bio on Instagram and on in on TikTok. So I have had some like actors when I posted that I'm going to see a show, they'll like DM me and be like, Hi, like, can you like quickly take a look at this for me? And I'm like, don't you have an agent? Like some people I have, but I'm like, I don't feel comfortable doing this. I'm pretty sure you have people to do this for you. You're probably trying to like cheat me out on this, and that's not what's gonna happen. It's a very interesting ride for sure.

[19:55] Gordon Cox: Yeah, I bet.

[19:57] Ashley Hufford: Yeah, yeah.

[19:59] Gordon Cox: And then actually, I sort of if you're a video editor, it's sort of that must help as you're putting these videos together. Like that that seems like an overlap right there.

[20:06] Ashley Hufford: Yes, I think it's one of those things where I think for a long time, I was like, my day job has nothing to do with like the and then I was like, actually, like it actually in a lot of ways, like I so I work my my day job as a video editor, I work in content, and I work for uh a nonprofit called Red Wine and Blue, um, which is completely remote and it's based majority in in Midwest, uh like swing purple states.

[20:25] Ashley Hufford: And so I work with and it's 99% women that work there, and so funny enough, I feel like the majority of women that I work with are also theater people because I feel like the like overlap of like so we we do and and because I'm in New York and most of them are based not in New York, whenever any of them come to New York, they're like, What do we need to see? Or whenever like a tour comes, they're like, should I go see this tour? And I'm like, Yeah, go see this, go whatever.

[20:49] Ashley Hufford: Uh, but when it comes to like the actual like day to day, like I I always like I'm like, I'm a storyteller, like that's what I do, and so it kind of all overlaps of like what I do with my job, what I do online, like my personal stuff, my work stuff, like it all blends together in a very cohesive way.

[21:06] Gordon Cox: And what do you think of as your value to a show, to uh you know, a show that you are that you are posting about? Like how do you how do you think about kind of what um what your what your work kind of uh adds to adds to their their profile? So tell me a little bit about how you think about that.

[21:28] Kristin Hopkins: So a lot of my followers and the people that I think that I've influenced to go see shows are uh corporate people, people you know, I went to law school with, people I went to college with, um, and people who are not necessarily going to see shows. And so whenever they just have like an inkling of like, I think I wanna, you know, maybe take a date to this show, what do you think about it? Or I saw this, you know, ad, you know, on, you know, on the train, um, what do you think about it?

[21:54] Kristin Hopkins: Um, and so I think that I get to expose people who normally wouldn't go see shows, um, and giving them like a full and like a real understanding. So I feel like a lot of my friends come to me and they're like, they're like, Kristin, I trust you. Like, what is this show about? And I want the real, like the real, real, like what you think about it. Um, and I feel like I have swayed a lot of people to go see some shows um just from my, you know, that that review. So I feel like I'm able to provide just kind of like a real um understanding of a show and just you know, help people go and support them, you know, keep these these shows, you know, keep these shows, you know, open and going.

[22:32] Gordon Cox: Yeah, yeah. What about for you, Ash?

[22:35] Ashley Hufford: Yeah, I think similarly, similarly, like I have a lot of younger people, like younger people that follow me, a lot of college kids, a lot of some high school kids. Um, and I think a lot of it is like they feel like theater is not accessible to them. And one thing that I really try to do is like highlight pro like how many under 30 programs there are in the city, how many programs that are made for students?

[22:54] Ashley Hufford: Like, and a lot of these programs are out there, they're like on a website, but they're not like being promoted necessarily. And so I what I really try to do is be like is to be like, here's how you as like anyone can go see a show for like a somewhat reasonable rate, or like here's like different apps that exist, here's different like websites that exist, different programs that exist.

[23:13] Ashley Hufford: Uh and I it's really cool because I I'll meet a lot of people, like even so last night at Hades Town, I re someone came up to me and was like, I came to see this because I know how much you love the show, and you always post about it, and I was like, thanks, and it's always like I it's still surreal. Like, but I and I'm like, I'm just like it makes me really happy that like people will see something and be like, I'm going to the theater because of you, something you said, even when it comes to like my cousins who live in Nyack, like reached out and they're like, We're doing a staycation, like we want to see three shows, and then they like every day they like sent me a selfie of like them at the theater, and I was like, This is great, like this makes me so happy.

[23:47] Ashley Hufford: Like, and so I think just getting it's a symbiotic relationship of like getting people to see shows and getting shows to like be accessible to let people come see them, and it's it's hard because I think when you are looking at a website for a show, like it does all the tickets look unreasonable, like it just you you go to the website, you're like, every ticket here is over a hundred dollars, and you're like, Yes, but actually, there are a lot of ways that you can get them for under that, and I get why like the we need the corporate people to come to the theater and pay the premium tickets so that the students can go to the theater and pay $25, and that's they're both needed.

[24:26] Gordon Cox: Yes. Do either of you have a sort of metric by which you judge uh this post was successful or this post is like really resonated with my followers? Like, how do you how do you measure whether something is uh really connecting with people out there comments or DMs from people if it's on Instagram people you know will DM me and be like yeah I felt this way or I don't feel that way can you tell me more about why you think this um sometimes comments on Instagram on TikTok excuse me can just be a little excessive like it can I feel like on TikTok people feel that they can just say whatever they want and the first thought that comes you know to their brains.

[25:08] Ashley Hufford: So like I will sometimes take TikTok comments with a grain of salt, so I'm just like you just like quickly put that in and you scroll on to the next, you know, the next thing that you saw. So yeah, I just look at the engagement and kind of just see, you know, who's commenting, who's posting, and if it's shared beyond, you know, just my page, if other people are posting it and sharing it on their pages. I consider that to be something successful.

[25:34] Kristin Hopkins: Yeah, I think because I think I used to get kind of caught up in like the views of it all, and then I realized that like we're all just kind of like at the mercy of an algorithm that like none of us will ever understand. And so I think that like comments and DMs are much more of a metric because I feel like that's where you're really getting people being like, "Oh, thank you for this," or like, "Oh, I was wondering your opinion," or like asking follow-up questions. Like in that, I think is when you're like, "Oh, this is a piece of content people really like because they're really interested in knowing more or like wanting to do it themselves." And if you don't get a ton of views on it, it's like, you know what, it is what it is, but like I'm glad that like a couple people like found this interesting and exciting and it helped them.

[26:13] Gordon Cox: Do you have either of you done anything to cultivate fans or followers to sort of boost followers? Or is there anything that you are even able to do to try to kind of, you know, add, get those numbers up?

[26:27] Ashley Hufford: I haven't. I just post what I want to post, and if people enjoy it, they enjoy it, and if they don't, then they don't need to be on my page.

[26:37] Kristin Hopkins: Yeah, I've been playing around a little bit with the Instagram algorithm, and not like any kind of like, but in terms of like I've just been watching a lot of reels that have been popping off. And so I've been kind of trying, like, so like now, like the big thing on Instagram, you know, pro tip everybody, is these four-second reels that just like recycle. Like, so it's like things that like I posted like a four-second clip of me. One of the things that I'll do for tickets is a lot of theaters have ushering programs where you volunteer to usher, you come an hour before you usher, and you get to see the show for free. And so I posted like a four-second clip of me like stuffing a playbill, and then you add like a trending sound under it, and I wrote a whole bunch of text on it that's about ushering, and then like that video like blew up, like it has like 800,000 views.

And I don't, for whatever reason, like right now, that's just like how Instagram, the algorithm seems to be working, is that they really value like people re-watching things if you put a bunch of text on it. They have to like rewatch it like four or five times to like, but like that video I think gained me like a thousand followers on Instagram.

[27:40] Ashley Hufford: Interesting.

[27:41] Kristin Hopkins: And so it's like, it's more, but like again, like next week they're gonna change it, where like now you have to post like a 10-minute video to like, you saw it? But like that's been kind of, and it's more just for fun. Like, I'm like, if I gain followers, great. If I don't, I'm still posting content that like feels authentic to me and the things I care about.

[28:00] Gordon Cox: And well, for instance, you both ended up at Hades Town last night, you were saying. What brought you there? Was that just fandom in general? Or how did that happen?

[28:12] Kristin Hopkins: Um, so this will be my, that was my third time seeing Hades Town. I saw it when it first came out, and when I saw it, I was like, "This is a good show. It's not a show for me, but I know that there are people who are gonna enjoy this." And I had just never planned on going to see it again. Um, but then they have four black leads, and something that's important to me is representation in the theater. So I was like, "Oh, well, obviously I have to go." Um, I was actually invited to go and see it in January, and I was completely blown away. I just felt a whole different connection to this show that I had didn't feel the first time I saw it, and I was just like obsessed. I was like, "I need more of this."

And I had a friend who wanted, um, she was like, "Well, I haven't, you know, gone and you know seen the show since it came out." So I was like, "We're going back to see it." Um, and I've still obsessed over this show and this new cast. Um, so that's why I went back and saw it for the third time.

[29:08] Ashley Hufford: See, you're about to not feel embarrassed though, because um, I went to Hades Town for the 35th time because it is the show. It is my show. Like that, like when you said there's someone, like it is me. Like that I am. I saw it off-Broadway in 2017, 2016. Yeah. Um, I've been following the show like since off-Broadway. And then obviously when it came back, when it opened on Broadway, and then just my friends and I, I have a whole group of like Hades Town girlies that we have like a group chat. We like, so I, this was my third time seeing this current cast, and I'm going to, um, I'm going to London for a theater trip like in two weeks. And so I'm going, I'm going, I just bought a ticket to go again next week because I want to see them one more time before, because Betty and Soleil are leaving February 4th, and I was like, "I can't." I was like, "Supposed to be the last time I see them," and I was like, "No, I have to see them again."

So I'm going, I'm taking my brother who's, I try to go. Like last night I took my friend JT who had never seen it. I'm going with my brother this week because it's Broadway two for one right now. So it's like you can buy one, get one free. So I like take my brother. It's an obsession, but I love Hades Town.

[30:09] Gordon Cox: So it seems like, uh, because you can kind of imagine they're like, "Oh, theater influencers, they just get free tickets all over left and right." And you do get free tickets, but it sounds like you are paying for as many tickets or more, uh, as the ones that you are getting free. Is that right?

[30:26] Kristin Hopkins: I would say yeah. I think it's about probably equal. Um, I definitely will pay for most shows, and like Ashley mentioned, I'm still in the region where I can get the tickets for, you know, $25 because I'm 30, so I can still apply for those programs. And so whenever I do have the opportunity, I will use those programs. Um, my job also offers programs as well to get, you know, some seats for like a discounted rate. So I do try to support shows and, you know, with my coin. I find that's so important as well.

[31:02] Ashley Hufford: Yeah, yeah. I definitely agree in terms of like, I feel like I, as much as I would say I love seeing shows for free, and there are some shows like that maybe I saw it off-Broadway, and then I'm like, "I wouldn't pay to see it on Broadway," but I got invited, so I'll like go and see it because I got invited. Um, but in general, I tracked it all last year because I was curious. I didn't track how much I spent because I did not want to know, but I just tracked how I got the ticket. Uh, and so I saw 224 shows in 2023.

[31:30] Kristin Hopkins: Wow.

[31:30] Ashley Hufford: And I think of that 60% were actually were given to me, which was like very, like I was invited to. So it was like close to a little, a little over, which makes sense in terms of like because I'll go to a lot of like theater festivals, right? So like theater festivals, you'll, you're seeing like three, four shows in a day. And so I might have been like invited to like go see three shows. Like, so I think it does track in terms of like, and a lot of the off-Broadway and off-off Broadway shows are, I'll get invited to now, and so um that kind of adds. And for Broadway, I would say it's probably about it. I probably pay for slightly more than I get invited to. Although this season I feel like I've been having a very nice problem where I keep buying a ticket and then getting invited like two days later. Like I bought a ticket to Spamalot and then immediately got invited, and I was like, "Okay, well, we're doing it."

[32:18] Gordon Cox: Right. Speaking of theater going, it is the spring. What are you both, uh, most looking forward to coming up this spring?

[32:26] Kristin Hopkins: Oh my goodness, there are so many shows this season, and I feel like they keep announcing more and more every single day. Um, but I will say I'm very excited for The Notebook because Joy Woods. I'm obsessed with her. Like I am obsessed with that woman in every way, shape, or form. So The Notebook. Um, oh my god, what else is coming? Gatsby is coming. Um, The Great Gatsby is coming.

[32:51] Ashley Hufford: Um, oh my goodness, they're so different.

[32:51] Kristin Hopkins: Oh my goodness. Yeah, really. Yeah, I think The Great Gatsby is coming. Um, I didn't see it at Paper Mill, but I'm excited to see kind of what they change, anything that may, um, have been, you know, updated and moved around. Um, my god, what else is coming? Ashley, help me.

[33:09] Ashley Hufford: Help so much. There's Olympica, there's Sus.

[33:11] Kristin Hopkins: Yes.

[33:12] Ashley Hufford: Water for Elephants, uh, Grant Gustin.

[33:15] Kristin Hopkins: I want to see Grant Gustin. So yes, Water for Elephants. There's a lot. I'm very excited. Um, yeah, I just want to see them. April, it's like one opening every single day. Like it's a lot.

[33:29] Kristin Hopkins: The Wiz. Oh my god. How did I forget The Wiz? Honestly, that's like priority number one. Um, so yeah, it's a long list. It's a long list.

[33:40] Gordon Cox: Yeah.

[33:41] Ashley Hufford: Yeah, you too, Ashley.

[33:43] Ashley Hufford: Um, I'm so, I'm, I saw The Notebook in Chicago like two summers ago, and I was, I went because I'm obsessed with Joy Woods, love Joy Woods. She's so good. Ryan Vasquez, so good. Like, I'm, I am, and I'm a, I'm an Ingrid Michaelson fan. Like I grew up, I was in high school, I was obsessed with Ingrid Michaelson, so that was the main reason I went, and then I've been like waiting for this to come to Broadway. So I'm so excited for The Notebook. I'm also really, really excited for Olympica, which is the new Rachel Tovkin musical that's gonna be directly across Hades Town on 48th, uh, with Ian Espinosa, who I've been a huge fan of since I was, I saw Brooklyn when I was like 12, and it was like changed my life.

So I've always loved Eden. And they did an event at Sotheby's to announce the cast this week, which was like very cool. Uh, so I'm very excited for Olympica. The Wiz. I'm very, I've never, because I've always loved The Wiz. I've never seen a staged production of it, so I can't wait. And then there's, this is not Broadway, but there's so much in London right now that I'm so excited to see. I try to go to London like two to three times a year now. It used to be once a year, then last year it was twice, and now this year is three times. So it's just becoming a thing.

[34:49] Gordon Cox: And is that something you get invited to do? Or that's your own enthusiasm, and then occasionally you are able to?

[34:56] Ashley Hufford: So I fly, I pay for my flights, and I'm very lucky because now I have like through theater stuff, I have a whole group of like very close London theater people that I met through like TikTok and Instagram, and you know, like it's funny because the week I, my friends are coming from London to visit the week before I fly to London. So they're coming here, and then I immediately fly there. Uh, so I stay with them for free, which is very nice. And then a lot of times I'll reach out. So, like, and shows in London just in general are so much cheaper. Like so, so, so much cheaper. So it's like what I spend for like four or five shows in London is what like one ticket to Cabaret in New York is, which is like, it's right now, it's if you want to see Cabaret on Broadway, A, like it's gonna be amazing, but also you could probably fly to London and see it from the second row in London for cheaper than you're gonna see it on Broadway. Like, uh, so that's just a, yeah. Yeah, a tip.

[35:26] Kristin Hopkins: Um, go see Cabaret on Broadway, it's gonna be great.

[35:54] Gordon Cox: Yeah. Well, uh, I will look forward to, uh, seeing all your posts that come out of all the shows you see this spring. Uh, thank you both for being with me. It was great to talk to you.

[36:05] Kristin Hopkins: Thank you for having us. This was so fun.

[36:07] Ashley Hufford: Yeah, I always want to talk about theater. So this is the greatest.

[36:13] Gordon Cox: That was Kristin Hopkins and Ashley Hufford. Find out where to follow them on TikTok and Instagram in the episode notes. If you enjoyed this conversation here on Stagecraft, I'd really appreciate it if you took the time to rate and review us wherever you listen to podcasts. It really does help. Or tell a friend about Stagecraft. Find past episodes and subscribe at all the places you get your pods, including Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and on the Broadway Podcast Network, which is a great place to find more theater for your ears. Until next episode, find me on Instagram and what used to be Twitter at Gordon B. Cox. You can also check out my newsletter about international theater. It's called Jake Queeze, and it's at GordonCox.substack.com. Thanks for listening. And see you at the theater.