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[0:06] Gordon Cox: Welcome to Stagecraft, Variety's Theatre Podcast, your backstage pass to intimate conversations with stars, creators, and industry leaders on Broadway, off Broadway, and beyond.

[0:17] Gordon Cox: I'm Gordon Cox. If you've been following the headlines lately, it's clear that these are challenging times for theaters around the country.

[0:25] Gordon Cox: From coast to coast, theater companies and presenting organizations are laying off staff, reducing programming, going on hiatus, and in some cases, folding for good.

[0:34] Gordon Cox: Many of these companies and organizations are among the most prestigious in the nation, ranging from Center Theater Group in Los Angeles to the Public Theater in New York to the Looking Glass Theater in Chicago.

[0:45] Gordon Cox: What's causing this industry-wide convulsion is a combination of rising costs, declining philanthropy, behavioral shifts in the lingering aftermath of the pandemic, and more.

[0:56] Gordon Cox: On this episode of Stagecraft, I'm talking with three guests who are battling to keep theater alive at companies around the country and across the Atlantic.

[1:05] Gordon Cox: Lucy Davies is the executive director at the Young Vic in London. Kelvin Dinkins Jr. is executive director at the American Repertory Theater in Cambridge, Massachusetts, and Martin Miller is the incoming Executive Director Producer at the McCarter Theater in Princeton, New Jersey.

[1:20] Gordon Cox: All three are here in the virtual studio with me to share their on-the-ground perspectives on our theaters in crisis, and on the many opportunities and reasons for optimism that they see ahead of us.

[1:50] Gordon Cox: So we're gonna start alphabetically. Lucy, let's start with you.

[1:52] Lucy Davies: Hello, people, hello Gordon. Lovely to be here with everyone. Uh, I'm Lucy Davies, I'm executive director at the Young Vic Theater in London in England. I've been there for just over a year. Prior to that, I was in the same role at the World Court Theatre for nine years. So I've traveled through the pandemic in this role in one theater and then transitioned to a different theater as we emerge. So that's my story.

[2:19] Gordon Cox: And Kelvin.

[2:20] Kelvin Dinkins Jr.: Hi, Kelvin Dinkins Jr. I use he, him, his pronouns. I'm the executive director at American Repertory Theater at Harvard University in Cambridge, Massachusetts. I've been here just over a year, a little over a year in this role, and have been working on many things, including getting us through our very first season fully back and producing at the ART and starting another season right now, as well as working on a building project in which ART will get a new home in Alston, Massachusetts. So that has taken up a lot of my energy and enthusiasm for this past year. Prior to ART, I was the assistant dean at the David Geffen School of Drama at Yale University and the general manager of Yale Repertory Theater, where I also was an assistant professor adjunct in theater management in the MFA Theater management program. I'm really glad to be here. Thanks so much.

[3:16] Gordon Cox: And Martin.

[3:20] Martin Miller: Hello, I am Martin Miller. I am in a split personality phase of my life as I am the outgoing, I've been for 13 years executive director and producer at Theatre Squared, which is Arkansas's largest producing theatre, and incoming executive director at the McCarter Theatre Center in Princeton, New Jersey. So I am to some extent wearing both of those hats today. And also feel like I'm in one of those farces where you're going in a door while someone else comes out another door or what have you, except I guess I'm both of those people. So pleasure to be here.

[3:56] Gordon Cox: All right. Thank you all. Thanks for being here. So there's been a lot of coverage lately about the challenges that are causing so much upheaval in theatre these days. But every theater and every organization is different. And I wonder if each of you could give us a sort of thumbnail perspective of kind of what's going on at your theater and how much you feel like those are the result of the kind of broader trends that people are talking about, and how much are specific to your particular organizations and the community you work in and all the varying factors that are idiosyncratic about your theater. I guess we'll go around alphabetically again. Lucy, let's start with you.

[4:35] Lucy Davies: Yeah, I think there are many complex external forces challenging all sorts of sectors actually, the hospitality sector as well as our sector, tourism sectors. And I think it's about that patterns and habits and behaviors are in a time of shift. And I think those patterns have changed, but they maybe haven't changed forever. So I think we have to slightly hold our nerve. I definitely move from I'm definitely traveling with optimism through this time, but my mood does change from genuine concern to feeling extremely motivated by change. I think our risk registers have never been so long, but our opportunity registers are also super long. So I and there's in London there's been a lot of leadership change in cultural organizations, and that's also super energizing.

So I think there's some really interesting combinations of very experienced elders in our industry and some really dynamic new visionaries, and I think those will bring some good energy. But yeah, there's definitely a lot of economic forces, habit forces, financial forces, workforce shifts, all of these things are making it a very hard to unpredictable and unpredictable context that we're traveling through.

[6:00] Gordon Cox: What's your sense of how similar the situations in the US and the UK are, and are there any sort of key differences in your view in terms of what's going on?

[6:13] Lucy Davies: Oh, that's why I'm here. I'm dying to find out. I mean, there's the kind of obvious ones, which is that our government subsidy model rather than the subscription model. I would say that the kind of stability of our government grant. We all who are regular funded by the arts council in England have just received our next three-year commitment to funding. So that's a kind of spine that we know is coming between now and March 2026. And that definitely keeps the wolf from the door, but the wolves are there for sure. And that subsidy has been at the same level for over a decade, and we know that inflation has traveled over 20% during that decade. So there's a tension in those things, but I would say that's the concrete difference between our industries across the Atlantic. But I'm yeah, I'm dying to find out where we intersect and where there's other divergences.

[7:13] Gordon Cox: Yeah, yeah. So, Kelvin, tell us a little bit about what's happening at the ART that you're finding.

[7:19] Kelvin Dinkins Jr.: So, coming in as a new executive right now, you know, you find the organization at a really important inflection point, right? Returning from the pandemic and producing a full season now and going back into big musicals and some plays in there, but reducing our output in terms of the number of productions that the theater has done in the past, and that is one of the things that we've been focused on is how to take care of each of these four productions within our calendar, and we were still experiencing towards the beginning of the season a sort of drop off in attendance, and you know, whether that had to do with content of the show or you know, folks were still coming back, we still had COVID protocols in place, and as we moved forward in the season, we saw this really big uptick that I think was really important to us because one of the trends that we were seeing is that subscriptions were also down as well, and folks were not renewing as robustly as they had in the past, and there was some concern about that is you know, are we to expect this along with all the other theaters in the country who were experiencing 20 to 30 percent dips in attendance?

And you know, we had Life of Pi in our season, which came across the pond from the UK from where Lucy was, and it was a really important collaboration, as well as our collaboration with the Kiln Theater, which brought us the Wife of Wilsden, and both of those shows just took off. We saw audiences coming back, we saw an increase in single ticket buyers across the board, and that is one of the things that I think we started to respond to and understand is that audiences were coming back. We were sort of at that inflection point where people were ready to be back here. And Wife of Willsden is kind of a body big tail and feels like a pub. And at that time we wanted to evaluate, you know, should we, you know, revert back our COVID protocols, roll them back.

And as we did, we saw people coming in bravely, and but half the house sometimes was still in masks, right? So giving people that freedom and leverage was really important because we had audience members on stage engaging with the play. And so we started to see that uptick happen and ticket sales just start to go. And while the subscription numbers didn't climb, one of the things that we did see is that the single tickets were really starting to sell so much so that we could engage in dynamic pricing and really taking stock of our inventory in a really creative way so that we could give this show back to the community. So that, you know, sort of is a trend that is not that is a little atypical right now for many theaters, but that's one of the positives.

But the other thing we are starting to or have been experiencing since my time is this great lingering, great resignation and seeing a lot of staff turnover of folks who are pivoting into other careers, pivoting to other positions, and dealing with that impact of being understaffed. And as we continue to aggressively recruit and try and bring people into the community, that's one of the things I thought for us is going to continue to be a challenge is how we get fully staffed back up and compete in this market right now. I'll tell you for you know our experience, it's been very hard difficult to land a technical production in the American theater, a technical director rather. And that and there's a whole article about it, and why every you know increased labor costs and materials, but also just the dearth of folks who are willing to go in these jobs in the same ways they used to. So those are some of the impacts I can share.

[11:00] Lucy Davies: They feel really consistent, Kelvin. And did have you found that part of that technical talent drain is because it's gone to TV and film?

[11:06] Kelvin Dinkins Jr.: Oh, it could be or just yes, out of the industry completely and folks just retiring from that work and technical directors. I think over here is somewhat different than over there, but we have a director of production who oversees the entire portfolio of production, and our technical directors are really on the technical and scenic build shop and oversee that part of the team, and that is a difficult position to be in with as much turnaround build schedules, and a lot of folks are shopping out to commercial shops that actually service the Broadway community, many regional theaters, and one commercial scene shop, Lucy, just got acquired by a film studio. And I said, Wow, if they're taking on film work now, how are they gonna have time for theaters? You know, that have smaller budgets. So that's what we're seeing.

[12:04] Lucy Davies: Wow. Super interesting. And your single ticket buyers that boost in that are they booking late?

[12:10] Kelvin Dinkins Jr.: That's definitely a pattern we're seeing here. I met a friend on Tuesday, a colleague on Tuesday, who they knew they were going to the theater on Monday night. They've known for ages. They've been dying to see the show. They bought their ticket on Monday lunchtime to see the show that evening, and I thought that that's such a shift, isn't it? And what they describe though as being in a it's about the uncertainty, the uncertainty matrix feels so much greater than it ever was before. So he said, Well, I might feel not well or something else might come up, or I might need to travel for work, or I might whereas and so I think what the pandemic sort of one of the big legacies of the pandemic is we is our that we live with the possibility of uncertainty much closer to us.

And that is really changing the way people plan and the way people think and all the possible things that might be an obstacle before you commit that money, and then the context of a cost of living. What if I'd never with what if that money's lost because I can't go? And so yeah, that late booking pattern is really intense, even for people who are very loyal theater goers and are committed to going.

[13:16] Lucy Davies: Yes, and we've seen it time and again, you know, and in the risk factor, I think is really important, because it's not just on their end of about, you know, I think we've always had late ticket buyers, and you know, if they can get a ticket, they can get a ticket. For us, the popularity of the shows means that if you delay, you'll be playing a slightly, you know, dynamically priced ticket, you know, that might have cost one thing two days ago. So our hope is that people buy early, but the other uncertainty is you know, injury, COVID positive places in the company that we've had to cancel shows with audiences in the theater. And so when it's that you know, sort of risky for a very long and has been for a long time, you think to you start to think, you know, audiences react to that, right?

They've made the whole trek to come down and then they have to go home. And so that's why it's been important, also, Gordon, in terms of labor for us to have coverage, and that's not just on the stage, it's our back of house staff as well, because we need people to take tickets.

[14:14] Martin Miller: We need people to sell tickets, we need ushers, we need front-of-house staff and run crews, and they are just as susceptible to the risks right now of just not being able to show up to work. And so we want to make sure we invest in the operation, and that's why many of the productions are costing more as well, is the labor factor.

[14:33] Gordon Cox: Yeah, yeah. Um, Martin, you've got kind of a double vision right now. You've got a hand in two pies, or how many metaphors can I go here? But like you you're seeing what's happening at two different organizations in two different parts of the country. What do you feel like from your perspective are the sort of major factors that you're really contending with?

[14:55] Martin Miller: It's very interesting to be in this transition in part because these were two organizations that behaved very differently during the COVID shutdown. And I, you know, I like to I would say that every course of action that any theater leader took during the pandemic was probably correct because there was so much uncertainty, and that it was impossible to know. It's kind of just like a whole sea of boxes and something's been underneath each of them, but there's no data or context, and you just have to go and pick one up and go with it. Um, but the two organizations did take very different approaches. You know, Theater Squared elected to continue to produce, even though there was no ability to have audiences in the space and moved to streaming very quickly, and as a result, you know, achieved some national recognition that was helpful to the company, and which I think also helped sustain the company's fundraising and keep audience members excited about the company even when it was in their living room instead of they were in the theater.

Um, and because of that, um, because we were relatively adept at our COVID protocols and had kind of kept the team engaged throughout, it was easier I think to step back into performances and our most recent season actually had, you know, we had more attendance than the season before the pandemic and more support as well. All that being said, the things that are hard and the things that are affecting the national field are just as hard locally in at Theater Squared as they are everyone else everywhere else and compounded by the fact that unfortunately whatever happened in the pandemic also disrupted sort of a conversation around the importance of the arts ecosystem to the regional landscape in the minds of some funders and also in the minds of local, you know, the people leading local government for example, and we found ourselves having to, you know, fight to maintain funding that was committed before the pandemic that was to support the construction of our new facility and also, you know, have been unable to get any local support for it's as if the case for the importance had changed and the momentary absence of the arts in people's lives and in the community caused people to change, you know, what they thought about their priorities on a macro scale no matter what we did.

McArthur took a different approach and essentially had more of a bit more of a hibernation, um, and I do think that as a result of that it is taking longer to invite audiences back and there are relationships with folks who have been supportive for a very long time that have cooled and that need to be, you know, carefully invited back and saying hey no you remain very important to this institution and its success, um please help us to rekindle this connection even with a bunch of new people in the room. Um, so I feel as though looking at those two examples I don't know what that teaches us for the future but it definitely does remind us that theater is local theater is always local and you know whatever the big issues are we'll all experience them together however we handle them comes down to the institution and community level so those are the kind of that's the contrast and experiences I'm seeing.

[18:48] Lucy Davies: Yeah. That's so interesting. I think that reflection of theaters being local but God a global pandemic also teaches you that theaters are international. You know the conversations that have opened up the way workers traveled during and since the pandemic definitely between the UK and the states but I feel like as the Young Vic has emerged from the pandemic it's been with really deep, deep deepened roots in Lambeth, which is our local borough in South London, and yet we've been more expansive internationally than ever than for a very long time. So it that's that's been very interesting. The world has felt smaller as a result.

[19:30] Lucy Davies: I really loved what you were saying as well there about um I don't know how it was framed in the in the States, but certainly in in the UK, services, if you like, or social goods, public goods, were kind of framed as essential or non-essential, and things reopened sort of in the order on that list, you know, and it was schools first, and you know, there was a kind of list, and theatres were literally at the bottom, it's like the most non-essential public good. And I think that therefore the kind of the onus is on us as well to restate our essentialness to the cultural and social capital of people's lives. And that does mean we're thinking differently, I'm sure we are, about or thinking more deeply about what we already do and what we offer and what we can do differently, and how those of us who are in buildings, how we can make those buildings really matter.

You know, it certainly in in the UK, pubs were more essential to get them open than theatres by like a long way. So you sort of think, well, what does the pub do? What what is it about the pub that offers something to people's lives that a theatre doesn't, you know, and so I think that in a way that kind of hierarchy of essential good and need has challenged us as leaders to really ask ourselves those questions.

[20:45] Kelvin Dinkins Jr.: I'd love to respond to that a little if you don't mind, just because that what you're saying about pubs and their role in public life, and it really resonates with something else that I feel has been reinforced in this transitional period, um, which is how much and also what Calvin was saying about the experiential nature of the performances they've come back with, and how successful that sort of like it's a happening, it's an event, how successful that's been. Um, there is something about you know, people seem to be more inclined to re-engage when the whole experience is exciting and engaging and perhaps includes the conviviality and joy they get when they go to a pub. You know, and I don't mean to think I I don't mean to say that every show needs alcohol, but I do mean to suggest that there is a desire for a social aspect that seems keener now than it ever was.

And perhaps that is because of our estrangement that we sort of had to nurture during the pandemic for our safety. Um and also because I think it's sharpened the need for differentiation from these kinds of at-home sort of Netflix-y experiences that we can now have in much more variety and from many more providers. And so the more I I was always inspired by the experience of walking into the cut bar at the Young Vic for the first time and just seeing it packed with people who weren't necessarily seeing a show. And when we designed and built the new Theater Squared, we emulated that, among other examples, the everyman that are especially common in the UK. Um, because we were we said clearly this notion that theaters are community gathering places has legs.

We didn't know how much that would be true when the pandemic reinforced those needs, but it clearly is even more true now, and I'm pretty excited to bring that learning to the McArthur and to Princeton, a place where there is a state of desire from all sorts of friends, neighbors, community members, saying, gosh, we're looking for that gathering place.

[23:01] Gordon Cox: I'll have more with my three guests right after the break.

[23:11] Gordon Cox: And now, here's more of my conversation with Lucy Davies, Kelvin Dinkins Jr., and Martin Miller. You've all alluded to some of the trends that people are talking about as affecting theaters all over the country and all over the globe, you know, including the sort of shifting priorities and philanthropy and sort of shifting habits and rising costs. And one of the things that contributes to rising costs is not only Kelvin, as you alluded to, you know, all the backup, the greater backup that you need, um, and the sort of higher prices for materials and all that. There's also an understanding that the theater work that a lot of theater laborers couldn't expect a living wage for some of the work they did, and so there's like raising those wages as well.

And there's taken together, you can sort of seem like, oh, perhaps there are elements of the way this theater industry was operating that were just unsustainable, and we need to figure out a new way of working. What to your mind, for each of you are the things that you feel like really need to change looking ahead?

[24:22] Kelvin Dinkins Jr.: That's a hard one. Um for me, because you know, it's a question that Gordon I've been asking since grad school. You know, is one, we we have all of these theaters that are so heavily reliant on philanthropic support, uh, ticket sales, you know, some version of government and corporate sponsorship, right? And you and you look at that model from you know, when I was talking about this 10 years ago, and the numbers always go up, right? We build in an escalation, and when your revenue sources do not sort of climb at the same rate, or you're not attracting the same rate of attention and attendance, what happens? That model falters every time you miss a goal, every year, every cycle, every season that it doesn't happen.

And so, again, thinking about how many organizations that you know describe themselves as performing arts nonprofits, I wonder what communities are sustaining those, right? You know, some theaters come from great means and great support structures that will continue to enhance their livelihood. That is why they have such substantial endowments, and it is to protect against moments like these when we we enter the pandemic and we need to protect our workforce. And so when I think about it, I I've I think I've always said this feels untenable, this feels unsustainable without a large infusion of some kind that is going to continue to save our theaters when the subscription models fail us, or you know, ticket sales are low, because there's this reconciliation that I don't think we talk about enough, and that's how much um things cost, and it passing those costs off to your patrons and your supporters, right?

So our ticket sales do not climb with inflation in that way, right? When you study ticket models and pricing for theaters, oftentimes it has been stagnant, um, sometimes for over a period of a decade because folks fear um theater becoming elitist, inaccessible, and we have all of these ticket programs that help to supplement attendance, but when you look at it on its face value, ticket sales will never help you out of a crisis or a major deficit, right? You can't sell your way out of that because you have only so much inventory. So I start to think how our organizations actually to some degree embrace the other things about producing. And I think what Martin and Lucy were alluding to about the experiential nature of our theaters and our buildings for those of us who have our own venues and support a larger community is it's how else can we leverage everything at our hands and fingertips to continue to drive revenue to support this organization.

So I think that's one of the things that we that might have to change is our own business practice. And you know, it feels a little hackney to say, oh, well, we need to turn to other sectors, you know, what what's Netflix doing, or what what's the sports teams doing in your local neighborhood? It's not just that. I think we have to own and embody what convening actually means, right? As an experience for a night out for a gathering, a social gathering, and an opportunity to talk to people. And you know, I've always found it so strange that you go into a theater, you sit down, they turn the lights off for two hours, and then you just leave. And you you can do it all without a conversation without a conversation with anyone around you.

And you know, that that seems like a wasted opportunity, right? You know, to actually make and foster community in a way where people are thrilled to be in the same building with you know hundreds of other people who are sharing in the same experience. So, my hope, Gordon, is that we find a way to leverage this and actually invest in what our communities are experiencing, whether it be concessions or the experiential nature of your lobby and the dramaturgy of your installations that are talking about the content in the play. My hope is we find a way to leverage that, um, to continue to support the narrative that theaters are essential, right? That we are here. We were one of the last industries to open back up after the pandemic started.

[28:25] Gordon Cox: And you know, and so when folks say you get out of the habit of going to the theater, it's it's not just that, it's that you have alternatives now that we are competing with and people getting back to traveling and etc.

[28:38] Lucy Davies: So I want to I want to find a way for theaters to really embrace um the broadness of how we engage people with our with our buildings, with our content, um, and everything that should be happening inside our theaters.

[28:52] Lucy Davies: I really agree with your provocation, Gordon, and your response, Kelvin, particularly the provocation that actually the model was a bit broken before the pandemic, and what the pandemic did, you know, it was the first time in London that theaters had closed for 400 years, and it was a plague then as well, that closed theaters, and that really was something grinding to a halt that had been in continuous and constant production motion for centuries, churning, and we have a lots and lots of theaters in London. It's an incredibly dynamic industry and sector and city for that. And so it was a real moment to stop and kind of admit to ourselves that we've been really taping it all together for quite some time, and that's where theatre is fantastic, and where theatre art is fantastic because it's a very DIY industry, you can make a huge amount with very little.

But it did come to a point where freelance artists threw up their hands and went, enough, and institutions threw up their hands and went, Eek, our reserves are not quite big enough to weather a significant storm. And so it we it is an opportunity to rebuild a model. It is about the model and a sustainable model. And that that asks a lot of us, but it and it's rich work and it's collaborative work, but it opens up opportunities, exactly as you're saying, to look to other sectors, to look across to our peers to think about how we can work together in different ways. Full of there's full it's full of possibilities, and I think that work is the work of the next 18 months, probably. As some of these patterns and habits resettle, and including looking across, you know, it's really interesting what you talk about what a Netflix's doing, but also what are festivals doing?

Because there's definitely a huge appetite, exactly as we've all been saying for things that are the polar opposite of sitting on your sofa watching great drama. What does it mean to really be in a hive of people having a transformational experience together? Uh we just did this incredible 24-hour show in collaboration with Lyft, London International Festival Theatre, and people were queuing around the block of the Young Vic for six hours to get into it, and the whole energy through even at two in the morning was incredible. And it ran through a you know warm, balmy Saturday with just this unbelievable energy around the work and in the spaces and around the block and outside and then online, and it just and it it's that kind of festival energy, the event energy.

This it's not even about spectacle, it's about experience that is properly transformational and and collective, and therefore, what other what other businesses do that and how do they how are they modeled? And yeah, so lots of questions and not all the answers yet, but but you know, these conversations contribute, so thanks for convening.

[31:43] Kelvin Dinkins Jr.: No, Lucy, it's great. I I just I I love what you're saying. And I think I I'd add to it, right? I don't know another industry that has um been more impacted by the institutionalism we're experiencing over the past, you know, half a century for the regional theater model, right? A billion dollars 40 years ago is very different kind of gift than it is today. Right. So when when we we think about these models that you know, where we say it was broken, it's not only broken, it was also doomed in some sense that as we professionalize as as you know, we also ha partner with our unions uh to bring, you know, sort of a livable wage to to their members and and responsive um work environments. As we continue to take that on, we become entirely different beasts um overnight almost, thinking about what we have to do to actually sustain a full operation and and you know, pay people salaries a year.

It it's going to continue to increase in cost. So it I'd love to spend some time thinking about how this model was set up and it is so professionalized now, it just takes so much more than it used to.

[32:51] Martin Miller: Yeah. Martin, do you have anything to add? That notion of a backbone that Lucy mentioned earlier.

[32:57] Martin Miller: Well, we know what our backbone looks like for the next three years. We just got, you know, that that that I think is what I in the US, um in every local market, because there's that lack of real government subsidy, every theater has to find that backbone of support that makes the model work. It it doesn't work by itself with uh sort of annual phone giving, a gala, ticket sales, and you know, whatever other earned revenue it is. There has to be some sort of piece that is, you know, you can build it on that only works in that market. So, what is the local distortion that makes the theater model work is is part of the job of an executive leader and artistic leader in the United States. And if you don't find that, it will it's just a it's just a slow sliding off of a slanty table.

You know, it's like it doesn't, it does not um create the kind of risk-taking atmosphere that allows for the kinds of experiences that Lucy just described, because you then become uh, you know, even great artists will become conservative in an environment of fear. Um and conservative art is not something that creates what the level of experience people need to actually want to show up every, you know, again every month and bring their friends and talk about it. Um so you know, all these things are related. You you have to have you have to create a a space of plenty to create great art, you have to have great art to create the excitement of the community that leads to that environment of plenty.

And unfortunately, at many institutions, people are in a different kind of cycle uh that diminishes rather than expands, and that's both real and psychological and hard to break out of. But I think that when we look at these things that are working, they can provide the inspiration that when we look back in five years, we'll be like those were the moments that got us past that vicious cycle and into a glorious cycle instead. Um so I love having this kind of conversation because it points to some really discrete path forward.

[35:11] Gordon Cox: So I wonder if we could wrap up by talking a little bit about some of the causes you see for optimism when you look ahead. What are some things that you've done at your own organization that seem to have really worked out? Or what are some things that you're seeing among your colleagues in the field that are really giving you cause for hope? I I open the floor. Lucy, go ahead.

[35:35] Lucy Davies: Well, I was just gonna respond to that point about conservative art, because conservative art shows us the past, but it doesn't show us the future. And to me, the piece of optimism is both in our business models and on our stages, this is the moment when culture's at its best, right? Because we're like a test bed for what the future might be. And I really feel optimism around that. I feel optimism from the artists who are taking over these institutions, and we're gonna reshape them. And I feel so surprised by some of the things that are happening, like the event that we held in May, the second woman in this 24-hour event, the response to it blew our socks off. And so you while you can also be surprised by things that haven't aren't behaving as they have done in the past, it's really breathtaking when you see the public rise up to what we do. And uh yeah, so I'm super hopeful for all the possible ways of future being the cultural industries can model in the in the years to come.

[36:41] Kelvin Dinkins Jr.: I'm optimistic because I I think the act of creating theater, sustaining theater, um, managing a theater institution are inherently optimistic and must be in order for the in order for the model to work. Um I know that that's a little self-serving that answer, but you know, there is this is this is a we all chose this industry not because we had starry eyes about what our stock portfolios would look like in and 30 years. We all chose it because we saw how theater can, as Kelvin was putting it, be essential and what it's essential to is people's lives, their social bonds, their sense of coherence, their tolerance, their empathy, and and when we talk about communities, we're not talking about places, we're talking about a thing that happens that theater actually creates.

And so if we can just find that spark that disappeared a little between the members of the audience and what was happening on stage and their and their sort of life force they got from that and remind and and everyone can walk into the room and remind themselves of why it is essential to them. That will happen naturally and there will be buoyancy in these institutions as long as we resist that environment of fear and keep working to inspire people and excite them. So I I'm I'm optimistic when I talk to people like this on a call and hear those that same energy reflected back to me because whatever form it takes it will be successful.

[38:19] Martin Miller: You know I don't look at this crisis moment with finality right you know theater has always been subject to crisis and it will continue to be in the future. It's what happens. We're gonna be here at the end of the day though. Right? Theater has has thrived and survived for hundreds and hundreds of years before there were Netflixes, before there were these, you know, sort of great stadiums with sports teams. Like, we're just gonna be here. We will be part of of the social fabric of our country. We will be here. We will continue to do this work because we are set up as regional theaters in the interest of the public good. We will continue to make great art. It will continue to happen. How we do it, how we deliver it will be more considered in the future.

We will be clear about our narrative. And I see theaters doing that right now. We're investing in sort of the spectacle, the excitement, the important conversations that are happening right now. You know, we our production of Avid is playing right now through the weekend, and it's one of the things that like I get to hear from my office whenever there's a matinee and just hear the roar of a crowd back in our auditorium. And it's powerful, and it is a constant reminder of what we are fighting for at the end of the day, because you know, even though we didn't get into this business for our stock portfolios, it's one of the things that our passions illuminate every time people get on that stage, every time the curtain goes up.

So I think one of the things that I'm optimistic about is that we're going to start paying attention. We'll pay attention to our workforces, the power of collaboration and collective action, right? Each theater being in its own silo, that might be a thing of the past now, right? Us figuring out how to produce sustainably and share resources is something that I'm seeing actively happen at ART and across the field with our partners. And I think that's really in part due to the new wave of leadership that's happening in this country right now. You know, we're doing a study right now that looks at the representation of leadership of our many um Lort theaters right now across the country for executive and artistic directors, and that shift has happened, right?

So we are in this environment where a lot of people are taking on new jobs, taking on new institutions, and and we're looking at this practice, saying, what are we going to gather for? And how are we gonna make these models sustainable? So my hope and my optimism is that we get into a practice of graceful sunsets of companies that do need to close and re-evaluate their public offerings to the community. But my hope is that we start to pay attention to our artists and especially our audiences, because these are the communities that are going to keep this art form going for many centuries to come.

[40:51] Lucy Davies: Just a quick reflection on that, just on the conversations, really. I think, you know, I certainly feel like in the last year I got into this line of work to talk about art, and I've spent a lot more time talking about money. But but as you can, but and people often think that's what we are, exec directors, right? We're the bean counters, but we're not running any random business where all three of us, it's been really interesting through this conversation, which is really about an economic challenge. We've all just kept circling back to what to the core purpose of our what our organizations do, which is make art. And that's you know, that's really that's cheerful, isn't it?

[41:27] Gordon Cox: Yeah, as you say, it's uh it's a challenging time, but it's also a very exciting time. And uh all three of you are among the folks who will be figuring out what theater is going to look like as we move ahead. So thank you so much for joining me and for sharing your insights with us.

[41:43] Lucy Davies: Thank you, Gordon.

[41:44] Kelvin Dinkins Jr.: Thank you.

[41:45] Martin Miller: It's been a pleasure.

[41:46] Lucy Davies: Really enjoyed it.

[41:51] Gordon Cox: That was Lucy Davies of The Young Vic, Kelvin Dinkins Jr. of the American Repertory Theater, and Martin Miller of the McCarter Theater. If you enjoyed this conversation here on Stagecraft, I'd be so grateful if you took the time to rate and review us wherever you listen to podcasts. It really helps. Or tell a friend about Stagecraft. Find past episodes and subscribe at all the places you get your pods, including Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and on the Broadway Podcast Network, a great place to find more theater for your ears. Until next episode, find me on Instagram and Twitter at Gordon B. Cox. Thanks for listening and see you at the theater.