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[0:00] Eli Tokash: Hello everyone and welcome to episode 126 of Take A Bow.

[0:04] Eli Tokash: I'm your host, Eli Tokash, and this week we have another very, very exciting episode.

[0:09] Eli Tokash: We're back to a full normal, I guess, kind of episode for Take A Bow with the red carpet episodes that we've been having lately.

[0:16] Eli Tokash: But uh very excited to bring it back and continue on our creative side of the industry guests.

[0:22] Eli Tokash: This one is with a very, very special guest.

[0:25] Eli Tokash: He is a casting director over at the Telsey office.

[0:29] Eli Tokash: I'm sure many of you who are performers have seen their Instagram, their open calls, have auditioned for them before, whatever it may be.

[0:37] Eli Tokash: Uh, they cast pretty much everything.

[0:40] Eli Tokash: All of your favorite things, they've probably casted it, and this guy has probably done it single-handedly.

[0:47] Eli Tokash: So this week's episode is with Patrick Goodwin, who I absolutely adore.

[0:52] Eli Tokash: He's casted me in a few projects that we'll get into.

[0:55] Eli Tokash: Um, very exciting stuff.

[0:57] Eli Tokash: And uh he also was able to teach me last year over at Pace University, where he teaches as an adjunct professor.

[1:04] Eli Tokash: So uh very excited to get him on the podcast.

[1:07] Eli Tokash: This is a long time coming, so I'm very, very excited for it.

[1:11] Eli Tokash: And uh yeah, before we get over to that, I think we should talk about some Broadway news, shall we?

[1:15] Eli Tokash: There's a lot to talk about.

[1:17] Eli Tokash: I don't want to make this super long intro, but I apologize if it may run a little long.

[1:23] Eli Tokash: That being said, let's start out, and I just want to say um the world lost a lot of meaningful people and influential people on a lot of people in the industry, and particularly to us over here at Take A Bow.

[1:39] Eli Tokash: We lost two people that I knew um quite well, just being in productions of theirs.

[1:46] Eli Tokash: Uh, Chet Walker, who is a performer, a choreographer, director, all the things.

[1:51] Eli Tokash: Um, he was my choreographer in Pippin on Broadway when I did the show.

[1:57] Eli Tokash: Just an unbelievable guy.

[1:58] Eli Tokash: Knew that I could not dance, but always took the time to help me out in any ways that he could, and was always able to find alternatives to make sure that people were feeling comfortable.

[2:10] Eli Tokash: And I think that that's something that was really, really important and opened my eyes as a young performer in the industry.

[2:17] Eli Tokash: So very sad to hear that Chet Walker passed away.

[2:21] Eli Tokash: Wonderful man.

[2:22] Eli Tokash: Everyone who ever crossed paths with him just adored him.

[2:26] Eli Tokash: He cared so much about you as an individual.

[2:29] Eli Tokash: Um, and he could know nothing about you.

[2:32] Eli Tokash: Yeah, but he just genuinely cared, and you felt that it was amazing.

[2:37] Eli Tokash: And of course, he was so influential in the process of Pippin because he was actually in the original production of Pippin that was ever done.

[2:44] Eli Tokash: Unbelievable guy, so sad to hear that he passed away.

[2:47] Eli Tokash: And another person that that's just absolutely heartbreaking is Lucy Simon.

[2:52] Eli Tokash: Uh, she wrote, for those of you who don't know, she is most known for her work in writing the music to The Secret Garden, which obviously I I've talked about.

[3:01] Eli Tokash: I've done a performance of it.

[3:03] Eli Tokash: Um, we did a benefit performance of it uh of the 25th anniversary.

[3:07] Eli Tokash: It was me and Gabriella Pizzolo, who you could see on Stranger Things as the two little kids, and then we had Max von Essen and Bradley Dean, and then we had Rebecca Lucer reprising her role as Lily.

[3:20] Eli Tokash: So it was just it was really special.

[3:23] Eli Tokash: It was truly, truly special, and uh forever grateful for that production.

[3:27] Eli Tokash: And with that being said, because it was the 25th anniversary, Lucy Simon was heavily involved, and she came to a couple of the rehearsals, she came to both performances that we did.

[3:38] Eli Tokash: Just a wonderful human being, gave us so many gifts in the world.

[3:42] Eli Tokash: The music to Secret Garden is simply amazing.

[3:46] Eli Tokash: I mean, people still sing it to this day, and uh, you know that it's an impactful piece of art when you know it's goes on forever and it's kind of timeless.

[3:56] Eli Tokash: So, um, with that being said, those two, and then of course, we lost another amazing human being, Leslie Jordan passed away this week, which is just heartbreaking.

[4:06] Eli Tokash: The famous comedian.

[4:07] Eli Tokash: I mean, this this guy literally could not put a smile on people's face, you know.

[4:14] Eli Tokash: It it was just impossible for them to even like be in the same room or watch his videos because he was heavily involved in social media and like not put a smile on people's face, no matter what they were going through, um, or or what was happening.

[4:29] Eli Tokash: His work is just absolutely incredible, and someone who I admired for quite some time.

[4:34] Eli Tokash: So just heartbreaking these three, uh, how influential they've been to the performing arts community in all sorts of different ways, you know.

[4:44] Eli Tokash: Leslie is a comedian and Lucy as a writer, and Chad as a performer and choreographer.

[4:50] Eli Tokash: It's just it's a lot, and um they their work continues to live on and continues to inspire so many people, and we are just forever grateful for for all of them.

[5:02] Eli Tokash: So um, just heartbreaking that it was just one after another, it just seemed like it wouldn't end.

[5:08] Eli Tokash: Um, just truly heartbreaking.

[5:10] Eli Tokash: So, with that being said, I just wanted to reserve a space here in today's episodes to honor them and uh yeah, and to thank them for their incredible contributions to to the arts and to all of our lives, truly.

[5:25] Eli Tokash: Um, so with that being said, not so much news here, but I do want to talk about what Take A Bow has been up to this past week.

[5:33] Eli Tokash: Very exciting stuff's been going on.

[5:35] Eli Tokash: We've been doing a lot of shows, we've been doing a lot of behind the scenes work.

[5:39] Eli Tokash: We did a whole behind the scenes work all weekend with I Put a Spell on You, volunteering our time over at Broadway Cares.

[5:46] Eli Tokash: Just unbelievable stuff.

[5:47] Eli Tokash: That production, they do it every year.

[5:49] Eli Tokash: I've had Jay Armstrong Johnson on the podcast to talk about it.

[5:53] Eli Tokash: That was actually last year for to promote that one because I worked on that one too.

[5:57] Eli Tokash: It just very exciting.

[5:59] Eli Tokash: His brain is brilliant in how he creates those shows for everyone's entertainment and continues to bring the Broadway community closer together and raise unbelievable amount of money for Broadway Cares Equity Fights AIDS, which is such a special organization here on Broadway and in our community.

[6:17] Eli Tokash: So huge shout out to I Put a Spell on You.

[6:20] Eli Tokash: You can actually go watch it starting October 30th on Broadway on Demand.

[6:25] Eli Tokash: It'll be up there for a week.

[6:27] Eli Tokash: And if you donate, I believe it's $35, but it may be whatever your heart desires.

[6:33] Eli Tokash: Um, you can donate more if you would like, or whatever it may be.

[6:36] Eli Tokash: You can watch it on Broadway on Demand.

[6:38] Eli Tokash: It was absolutely amazing.

[6:39] Eli Tokash: It was the first time in I believe three years, maybe two years, uh, that they were able to do it live and in person.

[6:46] Eli Tokash: And it was the first time at Sony Hall.

[6:48] Eli Tokash: And this space was just unbelievable, so perfect, and so many friends were there.

[6:53] Eli Tokash: I was able to meet so many Take A Bow family members for the first time in person, uh, like Samantha Polino, and I was able to see Julius Rubio and got to meet so many great, great people.

[7:04] Eli Tokash: Um, there were a ton of people there.

[7:06] Eli Tokash: And in it was awesome because I had to be in like a black clothing, so I actually wore my Take A Bow hat because I knew the logo wasn't too distracting and it was subtle enough and all the things.

[7:06] Eli Tokash: So I actually wore the hat and it's my only black hat.

[7:19] Eli Tokash: So I wore it.

[7:20] Eli Tokash: And uh a few people were just like, oh my god, it's Take A Bow um going to be doing a live show here.

[7:27] Eli Tokash: I love the podcast, keep doing it.

[7:29] Eli Tokash: Like it was just so fulfilling to hear um the fans of this community who are coming to support Broadway Cares Equity Fights AIDS to then just being like supporters of the show.

[7:39] Eli Tokash: So that was one of the coolest things of the night for me.

[7:42] Eli Tokash: And uh truly appreciate you all for kind of giving a shout out or supporting and whatever anything that y'all are doing.

[7:49] Eli Tokash: Um it's just it means the world.

[7:51] Eli Tokash: And I I will continue to do this as long as it's making people happy and uh providing some entertainment and people are are wanting it.

[7:59] Eli Tokash: Um, anyways, that being said, oh, one more exciting thing that's been happening for Take A Bow is um, well, I guess it hasn't been happening, but it's going to happen.

[8:08] Eli Tokash: Where today, actually, probably while you're listening to this, I will be at a private presentation of Griswold's Broadway Vacation.

[8:16] Eli Tokash: They're doing a presentation.

[8:17] Eli Tokash: They obviously did the out-of-town tryout.

[8:19] Eli Tokash: I talked to Ken Davenport, who is the lead producer on it uh about the show, and uh they're doing a presentation here in New York to continue to get investments and see where they're at with the work and everything like that.

[8:32] Eli Tokash: So I'm very excited to go check that out and I will let you all know how that is because I'll get a first hand look at it and like you know, in a rehearsal space, not in like a big show.

[8:43] Eli Tokash: So it'll be pretty cool to see.

[8:45] Eli Tokash: Um, okay.

[8:46] Eli Tokash: Now it's time for like real news.

[8:49] Eli Tokash: What's going on here in Broadway?

[8:51] Eli Tokash: Let's see.

[8:52] Eli Tokash: Take Me Out opens on Broadway yesterday, uh, October 27th.

[8:56] Eli Tokash: It's today, October 27th, when I'm recording this little intro.

[9:00] Eli Tokash: And Parade over at City Center will be uh premiering and making its first performance on November 1st.

[9:07] Eli Tokash: Uh I'm actually going to that opening night performance of Parade at City Center.

[9:12] Eli Tokash: So excited.

[9:12] Eli Tokash: Ben Platt, Michaela Diamond, John Dawsett, all these wonderful Jay Armstrong Johnson, who I just mentioned, all these wonderful, wonderful people who are going to be performing.

[9:21] Eli Tokash: And I'm so excited for this.

[9:23] Eli Tokash: Douglas Leones, who is a Take A Bow family member, Eddie Cooper, who we've talked to many times on the red carpet in our episodes there.

[9:30] Eli Tokash: Uh, just so excited to be able to go to this show and uh hopefully see some of these people because uh they're they're just all incredibly talented people.

[9:41] Eli Tokash: And uh with this show, I'm I'm just so excited.

[9:44] Eli Tokash: I I literally this talent with this show is just going to be so special, and I cannot wait.

[9:51] Eli Tokash: Um so happy opening and congratulations on reopening to Take Me Out and Parade and congrats to everyone involved in those productions as well.

[10:01] Eli Tokash: So, as always with Broadway, we always get like exciting news, and then it's like, oh no, type news that comes along with it.

[10:09] Eli Tokash: Um very exciting news is that Matt Doyle is going to be starring as Seymour in Little Shop of Horrors beginning November 15th over off Broadway.

[10:18] Eli Tokash: I'm so excited for him.

[10:19] Eli Tokash: I cannot wait to see him in this role.

[10:22] Eli Tokash: I love Matt Doyle.

[10:23] Eli Tokash: His performance in Company, I mean, granted, he he won the Tony for it, so I don't really need to say much about it, but it was just so ridiculous.

[10:31] Eli Tokash: I'm such a fan of his, so I am so excited to see this.

[10:34] Eli Tokash: But with that being said, that means he will be succeeding Rob McClure, who will have his final performance on November 13th.

[10:42] Eli Tokash: I am so sad that Rob McClure is leaving the show.

[10:45] Eli Tokash: Obviously, I'm sure he's doing um another gig or whatever it may be.

[10:50] Eli Tokash: But hopefully, I get to go see Rob McClure in the show because I'm dying to see his Seymour.

[10:55] Eli Tokash: I think he's a perfect Seymour.

[10:57] Eli Tokash: So you have till November 13th to do so.

[11:00] Eli Tokash: And if you want to see Matt Doyle on the show, go November 15th to go see Little Shop of Horrors.

[11:06] Eli Tokash: Some more news when it comes to uh, you know, performers coming into a show.

[11:10] Eli Tokash: Uh Dene Benton will be returning to Into the Woods on November 21st, which is very exciting.

[11:16] Eli Tokash: Dene actually played the role for those of you who don't know over at City Center, um, the production that it did before it came to Broadway.

[11:24] Eli Tokash: And uh, this is the first time that she will be joining the cast on the Broadway production.

[11:28] Eli Tokash: So very exciting stuff.

[11:29] Eli Tokash: She is actually going to be leaving a little bit early than when Into the Woods closed for so for the last two weeks.

[11:36] Eli Tokash: We probably will have a new um Cinderella, but it has not been announced yet, so I will keep you all posted on when that comes out.

[11:43] Eli Tokash: But very exciting to see that Dene Benton will be returning to the show.

[11:47] Eli Tokash: Something you just love to see.

[11:48] Eli Tokash: And now, speaking of Into the Woods, despite my um speculation, I guess, on the show extending beyond uh January 8th, it's been confirmed that it can no longer extend past January 8th, because it was announced that Candor and Ebbs New York, New York will be opening in the St. James Theater in March.

[12:09] Eli Tokash: And that production is going to be directed by Susan Stroman, and additional lyrics and songs were written by Lin-Manuel Miranda.

[12:17] Eli Tokash: So this is gonna be really, really cool.

[12:18] Eli Tokash: Um, very, very excited for the show.

[12:20] Eli Tokash: Unfortunately, that means Into the Woods will be closing on January 8th.

[12:24] Eli Tokash: So go see it before it closes because this production is incredible and so worth seeing.

[12:30] Eli Tokash: So go check it out.

[12:31] Eli Tokash: So that's it for this week's news on Broadway.

[12:34] Eli Tokash: Um, I do want to give a shout out to Rachel Bay Jones, who was just recently on the podcast, which I'm so excited for her.

[12:41] Eli Tokash: It was announced that she will be on the newest season of Young Sheldon, which I'm so excited for, playing opposite Emily Osment, actually, and very exciting stuff there, and it's a reunion with Annie Potts and Rachel Bay Jones, which is something I certainly needed.

[12:59] Eli Tokash: And it's something I I usually say it's something I don't know that I needed, but it's something I knew that I needed.

[13:04] Eli Tokash: And we talked about Annie Potts when we had her on the show.

[13:07] Eli Tokash: Just an incredible human being, incredible actor and performer.

[13:10] Eli Tokash: So very, very special, and I cannot wait to see Rachel Bay Jones on Young Sheldon.

[13:16] Eli Tokash: We've had Ian Armitage who plays Young Sheldon on the show.

[13:20] Eli Tokash: So we have a we have a lovely connection to the Young Sheldon family, and I love that it has so many Broadway kind of ties to the show.

[13:27] Eli Tokash: So very exciting stuff.

[13:28] Eli Tokash: Congratulations, Rachel Bay Jones.

[13:30] Eli Tokash: Just wanted to shout her out and uh congratulate her on her next journey.

[13:34] Eli Tokash: So that's it.

[13:36] Eli Tokash: And now I've talked way too much, but there's just been so much to get through and so many people to acknowledge and congratulate.

[13:44] Eli Tokash: So, with that being said, it is time to turn it over to someone else who I am deeply appreciative of and uh deeply grateful for, and that is none other than Patrick Goodwin.

[13:56] Eli Tokash: So, Patrick Goodwin, curtain up.

[14:03] Eli Tokash: Alright, y'all.

[14:04] Eli Tokash: This week's guest does it all.

[14:06] Eli Tokash: He's a professor at Pace University, he's a casting director, and in his free time, he appears on Wheel of Fortune randomly.

[14:13] Eli Tokash: Um he has casted a ton of shows that I don't know if you've heard of them, but he's casted The Greatest Showman, Cinderella, Annie Live, The Wiz Live, Better Nate Than Never, worked on your favorite Broadway servers, such as Waitress, Tina, the Cher Show.

[14:27] Eli Tokash: I can't even breathe. There's just so many. I mean, come on, this is incredible. So, my personal favorite, actually on his list happens to be Finding Neverland for some reason. And uh, you've ended up casting me in Finding Neverland and another one of my favorite projects, the Greatest Showman readings. So it is my absolute pleasure to welcome to Take A Bow, Patrick Goodwin. Hi, Pat.

[14:48] Patrick Goodwin: Hi, I am not worthy of that introduction, but you're so god. There's way too much to go through. That's not even half of it. It's unbelievable. You're killing it. I love it. I'm so happy that you were able to come on here today.

[15:03] Eli Tokash: Thank you for having me. It is my pleasure.

[15:06] Patrick Goodwin: Oh my god, of course. So the way I usually like to start these uh fun little episodes uh is uh by asking you how you got involved in theater in the first place. Not even just casting directing, but like what caught your eye in the world of theater, because I know you would kind of start as a performer first.

[15:22] Patrick Goodwin: Yeah, yeah, I was very lucky to come from a family that preached, do a little bit of everything, and follow what you love the most at the end of the day. And so I remember my parents at an early age putting me into just as many arts-related things as they did sports. You know, I was doing baseball and soccer as a kid and track and field and cross-country throughout high school, but I was always doing plays, I was always doing all sorts of choruses and stuff like that. My mom put me into private voice lessons when I was 10 years old, not really knowing what was gonna come out of it, but I ended up falling in love with it, and that's what led me to really focus on taking theater seriously in high school.

Not that in the high school productions that my school did, but there were also regional things and around Cape Cod where I grew up that allowed me to just be who I was as a musician and as an actor. And I love that I came from a family that really supported that. It's something that I'm constantly aware of and I understand is a privilege. And that sort of transferred into college in an unconventional way because by the end of high school, I had auditioned for a bunch of BFA programs, and I didn't know if I wanted to dive into it as a career as quickly as some other people did. So I approached the college process as I want to go somewhere where I can double major in theater and political science because the other part of me really wanted to be a lawyer.

[16:46] Eli Tokash: Oh wow.

[16:47] Patrick Goodwin: From a very young age, I'm very good at similar things there, you know. Every day. If I ended up with a law degree, I would still be using the same skills to do what I did.

[16:56] Eli Tokash: Yeah, there you go.

[16:58] Patrick Goodwin: Um I ended up at Drew University. It was a tiny little liberal arts school in New Jersey that I knew of because a friend of mine who had graduated a couple years previous to me in high school went, and she loved it. And she said, Look, if you're really considering finding that perfect school that'll let you double major, you should look at Drew because they have a really great theater program. They had this beautiful theater complex that had just been built. It was called the Dorothy Young Center for the Arts. And I got to meet a couple of the uh pre-Lon poli sci professors, and I loved it. So I didn't even visit Drew before I went to go.

[17:34] Eli Tokash: Oh my god.

[17:35] Patrick Goodwin: Same fact. I was like, if I ever have kids, I've never letting them do that. Um but I was there. I loved every second of being able to balance the two. And that, but the problem was by my senior year, I still loved those two things just as much. One of the best pieces of advice I've ever received was when my college professor in my senior year said, you shouldn't go to law school, you shouldn't go to grad school. You should take a year off and go be Patrick Goodwin in New York City and see what that means for you. And I remember being so offended by that because I was like, I just took the LSATs and the GREs and did all that to do the auditions for these MFA programs. And it really was the best advice because if I hadn't done that, I wouldn't have ended up in New York City interning for Bernie Telsey while I was bartending at night making money.

And it turned out to be sort of the perfect thing to do as I was auditioning and making money on the side, doing odd jobs and stuff like that. I uh I interned for about three months and then became Bernie's assistant because his old assistant was taking a leave of absence. That turned into a permanent thing. And before I knew it, I had completely fallen in love with being on the other side of the table. And wow, I realized that you can be an artist as a casting director. There's more than one way to be an artist.

[18:57] Eli Tokash: Oh, yeah.

[18:57] Patrick Goodwin: And I really appreciated the stability of it. You know, if you're if you're fortunate enough to work for somebody like Bernie or a casting director that has a lot of clients that keep coming back to them because they do a great job, I knew that was something that was gonna be a lot more important to me than gig work at the end of the day. And so 17 years later, here I am.

[19:15] Eli Tokash: So let me ask you this. When when you became an intern over with Telsey and Company, did you even know what casting directing was?

[19:25] Patrick Goodwin: That's a great question. I did not. We all think we know what a casting director is until you're really doing it. I think now there's so much more of a understanding that it is a career and a profession and an art. Back then, we only went by what we thought from watching TV and film and seeing credits or hearing stories about how old Hollywood casting work and all that's such BS. But like I didn't really know until day one. And then I was like, oh, this is such a cool, unique combination of left brain and right brain in terms of being artistic, being business minded, taking care of clients, having an organizational aspect to who you are to help keep things in order. And I loved it. I absolutely loved it. I'm so I think I'm sort of the last generation of people who really didn't know what it is at all until they got their net.

[20:20] Eli Tokash: Well, I don't know. I I don't know, because I feel like nowadays people still don't really understand what goes behind a casting director and what it actually is that they do. Because as I mentioned, you teach at Pace University, and I was able to take your class last semester. And I mean, the stuff that I like I've auditioned for you a million times, but had no idea the immense amount of work that you do outside of just being in the audition room. So talk to me, like with all this experience and now really, I mean, you really know what it is now. Talk to me about really what it is that a casting director does, so that we can all kind of understand that a little bit better.

[20:59] Patrick Goodwin: Yeah, I I think at the very basic, what I think people should know that they might not know or that they might assume otherwise, is that we are not the people that are making final decisions as to who gets a job in a production. We're there to serve that director and creator's vision, whatever the creative team is for that project. So if it's a producer, director, music director in the room, we don't have an agenda other than getting the best people for that job in front of them so that they can see that artistic vision of theirs come to life. Um and I, you know, that was sort of the biggest aha moment for me when I first started in casting, because I always thought, oh, the casting director is the person that picks, and then everybody else just deals with it when they get the set or get some production.

Obviously, now you know that that's not the case. Um but in doing that, in you know, in coming up with all the skills and tools you need to be a good casting director and to make sure that team gets what they need and what they want, it requires a lot of memorization skills and of seeing people and remembering names and faces and good list keeping and having great people relationships with agents and managers who you can trust that'll give you quick information about people or that will pitch other ideas of folks you're not even thinking of in that moment, you know? So there's all sorts of aspects of just um professionalism that fall into it in a in a whole separate way. But I think for the most part, what people should know is it's us serving that team's vision. That is our job at the end of the day. That's why we're hired, that's why we have an opinion in the process, all of that.

[22:36] Eli Tokash: And so as a casting director now, I mean, with finding the right talent to come in and audition with you, you obviously have to do the research through watching media and the entertainment, whether it's going to shows and and watching things on TV, like on top of your job, like you're you're working at at all hours of the day, basically, when you think about it. How do you find that balance? And how do you like when you go to a show, is it like, oh my God, I have this project coming up, I can see that person in that role. So let's call them in. Is it that sort of thing?

[23:06] Patrick Goodwin: It's it's depends on the project that you're working on, and it also depends on the medium. I think theater is a very different beast from TV and film and requires a different skill set a lot of times in terms of you know what that team needs. For the most part, um, I find when I'm at a theater, I'm glued to that playbill before the show, during intermission after the show, and reading it on the subway home and getting to know every person, saving every playbill so I can remember where I can put names and faces and all of that. Um, and I think with TV and film, you know, it's especially during the pandemic, this has been amplified. It's so different. It's really just keeping that mental rolodex of everyone you're seeing, and thinking what they could be right for if they're you know New York based or could tape or anything like that.

I think, you know, everyone's gonna have their different version of sort of logging mentally or or physically who they're seeing and what they're liking for things. For me, anytime I see an actor in a, you know, for example, in a supporting part in a TV show on a streaming platform that I didn't know before, I find myself looking them up on IMDb or breakdown very quickly to see what their track record is and um if they have resume credits where I might have missed them elsewhere, and all of that. And that just helps me visually have that part of my brain that goes, I'm gonna remember that face, I'm gonna remember that name for the next thing. And I one of my favorite things in the whole world, you know, in discovering new talent, is when you find somebody like that that you've just watched in a TV show or was in the ensemble of a Broadway show, and then suddenly you're like, Well, what about that person for this? And they get the job. That to me is, you know, so much of the joy that I find in casting is that you get to make those connections if they didn't already exist for that person otherwise.

[24:52] Eli Tokash: Absolutely. You mentioned that there's like a difference between how you search out talent for Broadway and TV and film and everything. There's a whole nother process too for the audition itself that I learned from your class. Obviously, I've talked about here, like from an actor's perspective with other actors and performers of like how the audition differs for a performer, and you can touch on that as well if you'd like. But I'm curious to know what the difference is between a theater casting call and a film casting call and bringing those people in and preparing for that. And if like going even further with the Broadway and movies, what is the process of like a movie musical? Um, is that in its own category? Is it combination of the two? Talk to me about it.

[25:39] Patrick Goodwin: Oh my gosh, there's so much there to understand. It's a loaded question. I know. I'm so sorry. We can break it down. I love that you're you're hitting me all of it at once. It's great. Um, yeah. I think at the end of the day, it depends on a lot of different things. It depends on your team for the project and and what their specific wants and needs are to get those roles populated. It depends on um your producer, whether that is, you know, an independent commercial producer on Broadway or a established theater company that is sort of heading up the production, or whether it's a studio or a network or an independent film, you know, though all of those different things have different ways of operating to find who they want for a process.

In general, for example, like one of the things I remember we talked about when I had you in class was in the theater world, if you're working on an equity production, there's gonna be required calls by the union EPAs and ECCs where people, if they have an equity card, can be seen, can self-tape now in this day and age and all of that. That doesn't exist in SAG after contracts. No open call for actors for any role in a TV shoot or a TV film or a uh a film. Um and that's not to say that they're doing something wrong. It's just not how that medium operates and not how the and that union's never operated like that. Um I think obviously, if you're looking at a musical, you're taking in so many more elements than just a play.

There's a music element, a dance element. There might be a very different take on design elements because of the music and dance. There might be special skills that are needed that aren't necessarily included in a play. Right. Um and with film, it really is about what is the final product you're seeing from those actors on the camera, whether they're in the room auditioning for you or sending in a self-tape, is the director able to get the shot and the and the acting that they need out of that person and the and the choices that they need out of that person. I think when you, you know, I when you say music movie musical, it's like now combine all of those things in one under a contract, and you're doing all of it, right?

Um the associate on The Greatest Showman, Bernie and Tiffany were the casting directors, Bernie Telsey and Tiffany Little Canfield, who are such wonderful people to learn from in that respect. And one of the things that I was just so fascinated by was their ability to multitask, every element of a giant stage music, a giant big budget film, the players at the studio, the director, the line producer, all of these things just had to be done on the timeline that we were given. And it was really hard. But there's no better way to learn than being thrown into it like that with a support system. And on that show, like I'm not gonna lie, that was a hard, hard thing to cast from the get go. And Bernie and Tiffany watching how they handled everything with such grace and with patience and being able to be frustrated in our own moments when we were like, what are we gonna do? This doesn't seem right, all that. Um it was really the greatest learning experience for me in terms of diving into a big budget movie like that and and knowing how to do it.

[28:49] Eli Tokash: And I've um the other thing that I think is really fascinating is what you think is gonna be the final product on a final version of a film, is never what you think it's gonna be in the room or in a callback or in an audition. It's always so cool to see what that final picture is that that director and that director of photography put together.

[29:04] Patrick Goodwin: Oh, yeah.

[29:11] Eli Tokash: It's I love the process. I I'm fascinated by the process. Just being in your class, and then like me, like lately, I I've just been so interested in like producing, and all of that's this the whole side of that. I'm falling in love with the behind the scenes at similar to the age that you fell in love with it. So it's cool. It's a cool like little um path here.

[29:31] Patrick Goodwin: So yeah, I know, right? Um but yeah, no, the way that the Greatest Showman kind of like just happened and was put onto screen, it was just brilliant. So I applaud you guys for everything that you do. With that show, in particular, I mean, there's a lot of shows. You you could even say like the Wiz Live and and all of these wonderful other projects that you've casted with those big names, such as like Azendea, Zach Efron, Hugh Jackman, is the audition process a little bit different? Not to like take away from anything, but like is it different as far as like someone who's a little less known or or I guess famous in that term?

[30:10] Patrick Goodwin: Oh, absolutely. I mean, and to use your example for somebody like Zach Efron or Hugh Jackman or even Zendaya, this was before she had done Euphoria and you know was winning Emmys and stuff like that. They were all attached to the film or offered the role outright, you know, before we were really involved in that process. We might have helped facilitate with making sure their availability was clear before getting into details of going to them with an offer and stuff like that. But more often than not, with those situations of A-list celebrities and people who are higher level, those are going to be done in-house at the at the um business affairs level with that, you know, studio and network taking care of all the nuts and bolts of getting them in place.

There's certainly situations where you know there's a really cool roll-up for grabs in a film and a director has some high-level people come in and read for it. If those actors are willing and able to come in and read for it or self-tape for it, great. That's not always the case. A lot of people are offer-only. A lot of people um will take a meeting but won't read, will agree to have a Zoom conversation, you know, theoretically about what the piece could be if they wanted to go to them. There's a lot of sort of wooing people to do the role in that sense, uh, if it gets to the point where a director's actually able to be in a room with them and talk to them about the project without an offer on the table or with an offer on the table.

It's a very different world from you know, the new actor at 22 years old that just graduated from a great performing arts school, going in and self-taping or auditioning for something. That's that's a very different process.

[31:39] Eli Tokash: Oh my god, that's crazy. Author only. Oh my god, I can't imagine. Um, anyways, moving forward. That's so cool, though. I just, yeah. No.

[31:51] Patrick Goodwin: Send me an author. Great.

[31:52] Eli Tokash: Oh my god. Must be nice. Where I can just, you know, pick and choose whatever comes my way. Like, go off, I guess, you know. Like, congratulations. You've done what it took to get to that level. You've put in the work, you know. I mean, it's just like fascinating to think about. Um, anyways, I'm gonna ask you, like, you know, we talk about like being in a room and everything like that, and and what it's like to be a casting director and stuff like that. But I'm curious to know if your background in performing and love of performing itself kind of changes your perspective of being a casting director and and when people come in and perform for you. Do you think about like, oh, this is what they're thinking about? Because when I performed, this is maybe what I was thinking about. Like, I don't know. Does that have it have an influence, I guess, on you watching an audition?

[32:39] Patrick Goodwin: I definitely think having an any sort of background or any experience in the performing arts helps because you understand, uh, whether it's a performer, a director, whatever, I think you understand context of scene work and music and dance so much more than you would if you didn't have any opportunity to develop a taste for those things. This is such a taste business. Everything is subjective. What you might think of an actor, I might think very differently. And that's one of the reasons why I always say one of the things I've come to love as a casting director is being proven wrong. If I have a preconceived notion about somebody, or if I think I've seen everything that they can do in their entire bag of tricks as a performer, I love being proven wrong because that only can help them get the job and it can only help that team see a different side of them where even if they don't book that job, maybe they're right for something else that that team is working on.

But I think, yes, having an experience growing up in the arts and being an actor and understanding what it means to do what they're doing in the room, which takes a lot of time and effort and sacrifice. I think it builds an empathy in that situation where the casting director is always rooting for you. We have no reason to want anything other than every single person who's taping or walking in the door to do their best work, period. It doesn't do us any good if any one person out of 50 people that are auditioning in a certain day doesn't do their best work. You know, we're we really are rooting for everybody in that respect.

[34:06] Eli Tokash: Yeah. And I mean, I guess that's why you call so many people in, you know, like it's not like you're dead set on a specific talent or anything like that. You know, you're calling in all these people to come in and give their best work to see who kind of fits where.

[34:19] Patrick Goodwin: Right. Exactly. And obviously that's going to be within the scope of what your director gives you. If your director is, this is really specific, only show me the people that meet this, this, this, this, and this and check all of these boxes. Then you might only have five people instead of 50 to show you. Still okay, because as long as you're finding the right five people, then you're doing your job.

[34:38] Eli Tokash: Right. Fascinating. So when you talk about like coming in for an audition and self-taping, there are some unwritten rules that I feel that happen in auditions, just because like we're all still like figuring it out, especially with the self-tape with this new post-pandemic life, you know, self-tapes are so relevant and so common. So when it when it comes to like unwritten rules, such as like clothing and like how to film and like what songs to bring in. What are your like favorite unwritten rules that people may not know about that you could share with us?

[35:09] Patrick Goodwin: I don't know if they're favorite things, but I think there's so much you can do to help yourself at a very basic level when you're self-taping, you know, have a solid background. Wear something that's contrasting to both the background and your skin tone so that you pop, you know, you want to be the star of that thing. Test your lighting and your sound before you start. Make sure the shadows aren't all over the place, make sure the sound isn't garbled. Um, make sure you're in a location, if you can, where the background noise is as minimal as it can be. Um obviously, where if you're in New York City, you can't help if a fire truck goes. Yeah, taping. You can do as many takes of that thing to get it as right as you think you can make it to be sent in.

Um, that's the for me, so much of the difference of the on camera or the self-taping versus the in-person world is if we don't see you coming in on the fly and doing it, that's okay. But we know you probably had a lot more time to get the take right than you wanted at home if you had seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve takes to do it right. Right. Um, that being said, I don't hold any of that against an actor because this is the world that we have been forced to live in with our post-pandemic safety. But I think in terms of the tapes, there's there's those things. There's the tech elements of just making sure that if you're looking at it from an objective point of view, you would be interested in that person for the job.

And I will say, from the from so many self-tapes that I've watched, you'd be so surprised how many people don't watch back their work and just send in what they think is their best take. And then you're like, you didn't you couldn't tell that the sound was garbled for the last 20 seconds, or you couldn't, I think you didn't realize that we saw you walking out of frame and saying, damn it, while you were shutting off the camera. Sorry. Um there's a lot of that that happens too. So be a perfectionist. I guess that's the bottom line of what I'm saying is be a perfectionist in the sense of treating that self-tape with as much professionalism and enthusiasm as you would if we were able to see you live in a room.

[37:08] Eli Tokash: Absolutely. And Pat, I have to be completely transparent with you. I was one of those people that did not watch my tapes until I had class with you. Not proud of it. But I want to like now you know.

[37:20] Patrick Goodwin: I know now I know.

[37:21] Eli Tokash: And there have been times where I've been like, oh my god, like I totally need to like cut that out or do this, or like, you know, like there's been times where I've had to like retake. So like I'm like, I don't even know what I've sent in that like I don't even want to think about it. And it gives me anxiety thinking about it, but it's okay. But I just I don't know. I like I'm someone who did not like to like watch myself, you know, at all. Like even if I'm on like a TV show, like I'm not gonna watch myself. My parents can watch myself, but I'll be in my bedroom or whatever. Like, what you know, like do without me.

[37:52] Patrick Goodwin: So if you are one of those people as an actor, you know, it's something that you kind of just have to work through and and get through. And honestly, it's just about skimming through, even if you have to. Like, I I think if you even turn the video off, if you can just hear the sound or just see the video for uh a few minutes to make sure that it's clear all the way through, you know, you can skim through that on the iPhone. There's just things that you can do around it where it's just so important to make that extra. It's like when you take a test, it's like making sure that you answered all the questions type thing. Um I think that's like I sorry, that's such a like college high schooler kind of thing. But it's that's real, you know. So I highly recommend doing that. It it saves my butt a few times.

[38:34] Patrick Goodwin: And I will say you bring up a very good point, which is I think naturally in the habitat that you operate as an actor, of course, you're gonna be your own worst and best critic for whatever content you're creating in the moment for a professional gig, right? Have that support system of those one or two people that understand the industry that are doing the same thing you're doing to who you trust to objectively watch it and not be afraid to say, I think you want to retake it because of this moment, or I think this was a really, really solid thing you need to keep in mind if you're gonna retape because I don't want you to lose that thing. And and that's where you have to really just trust people based on the performances that you see them giving or the or the work you see them booking.

I love when I hear actors going to each other for sort of communal feedback on their own work before sending it to us, because how that that couldn't hurt at the end of the day, as long as you know those people get it and are trustworthy in terms of what their um what their own work is.

[39:37] Eli Tokash: Right. And that's so real. And even if that's just your reader, um, you know, you're already in the same room or you're um FaceTiming them or whatever it may be to do the audition already, just hey, send it over really quick, just two more minutes of your time if you have it, like can you skim through this, you know? It there's ways uh to do it, I guess, and to collaborate. Because that's all this is. That's all this business is really is just collaborating with others and artistic people. It's cool.

[40:02] Patrick Goodwin: Um yeah. So when when you're assigned a project, right? Like how how does that work? You know, is it you who's kind of, you know, pitching for your company to be like, oh, I'll be the lead on this? Like, is it you're just assigned? Like, how does that whole thing work?

[40:18] Patrick Goodwin: Uh, that's a great question. It it really depends on a couple different factors. It's availability. Um, it's you know, having a previous relationship with the director that sometimes comes back to us and says, We we loved working with you on this, we want to work with you on this. Um, and then there's those rare occasions where um a job will be offered to us or to Bernie, and we all talk about who we think is the best fit and who has the most interest in doing it, and who maybe uh would benefit professionally the most, you know. I haven't done this kind of dance musical before. It would be great to dive in and learn that pool of actors that I might not know from a point ballet show or something like that.

I really love I've been doing this, I think long enough now that there's so many people I love working with that I will make it happen if they come back to us and say we have this project, even if I know that like it's gonna require some schedule shifting and stuff like that. We have people, you know, it's a people business where if if you're not enjoying doing it, then sometimes it's not worth doing. A good friend of mine once said, and I think this is so true, you have to have two of the three P's in order to do, in order to be happy doing a project. The people, the pay, and the project itself.

[41:34] Eli Tokash: Oh, yeah.

[41:36] Patrick Goodwin: Two of those three, it's worth doing. And I personally think, first and foremost, if you know it's people that you love, like I will say, Tina Landau, I will drop anything for any cast because I think she is such a lover of actors and so collaborative and so kind and giving in a room that that's the kind of person that I want to be associated with and that I want to work for. Um, and I think that really makes it exciting when you when you have that existing relationship. But at the same time, of course, I'm also gonna be excited about a really cool project where I don't know the team at all. And I'm just so excited to see what their vision is for it that I'm gonna throw myself into it and figure it out and and hopefully make them really happy with things they might not have been thinking about that I can bring to the table if it's not something that was already at the forefront of their mind for what that artistic vision of the production was.

[42:30] Eli Tokash: Interesting. That's so that's so cool. The way that you just think about it, like it's not because I don't know. For some reason, I was like, oh, do casting directors kind of have to audition? Like, is that a thing? But like, no, like oh, some interviewers.

[42:43] Patrick Goodwin: Yeah, okay. Oh, yeah. Every once in a while, it's like, hey, if it's somebody that has never worked with us before and is coming over from London to do something, wow. Absolutely. That's that's um obviously if if it's a job we're available for and interested in, well, of course we will do that.

[43:00] Eli Tokash: Oh, interesting. Yeah, there's so many ways then, I guess, that you could kind of get involved in a project. That's so cool. It's like a it's a real job, guys. It's a real thing.

[43:09] Patrick Goodwin: We need to be treated as it.

[43:11] Eli Tokash: Yes.

[43:12] Patrick Goodwin: And we talk about everything that you do for just a simple like one production and you're all constantly working on multiple. Yet casting directors simply just don't get the recognition. I mean, there's still no awards. I'm doing this to kind of raise awareness of what casting directors do, and you know, they're just people, y'all. They're not they are intimidating, but they're not, you know. Like they are here to help us. So, like, and like I said, you know, they don't get the recognition they need. And I know that you're a big activist, I guess, about you know, getting an award or like a Tony Award or some sort of recognition in that way. So, like, what do you think it has to take for this industry as a whole to really appreciate casting directors the way that they're supposed to be treated?

[43:58] Patrick Goodwin: Yeah, it's uh it's such a great question. Um, I have to start by saying Bernie Telsi, I think for the community has done so much to lead the way in not it's not about getting awards for us individually, it's about making people understand that our profession matters and that you can't make theater without us. You can't make film without us, you can't make TV without us 99.999% of the time. So, you know, we get Emmy Awards. There's Emmy categories for casting directors for a multitude of things from reality casting all the way to you know television shorts and things like that, you know. There's you can look up the casting categories for Emmys. It's crazy to me that there is still not a Tony or an Oscar for casting.

[44:41] Eli Tokash: Yeah.

[44:41] Patrick Goodwin: We are the I think now the only main title build designer artist on the credits of a film or TV that we just we're the only ones that don't have that kind of recognition in the film to particularly. And then when I think about it in theater, you know, we have made lots of attempts through CSA, Casting Society of America, and through our own conversations with people to try to get people in the theater community to understand how important what we do is, and that these actors don't just magically show up on stage themselves. It's part of an art process of us from that team helping create it. And I hear a lot the counter argument is sometimes well, nobody can measure what you do, nobody can tell what you do. How do we know that they didn't come attached and they weren't audition? Like all of those things. And I have counterarguments to every one of those little things.

[45:33] Eli Tokash: Yeah.

[45:33] Patrick Goodwin: But at the end of the day, what I would like to see in the next five years is an actual seriously taken petition by the Broadway League and by the American Theater Wing to say, you matter, we understand what you do, and we are going to try to work to make this happen. Because, you know, again, it's not about being selfish and saying I pack good when one a Tony or I want Bernie Telsey off Tony, you know, that's not what it is. What good am I doing for the next generation of casting professionals if we're not trying to get them recognized in that way? And I have learned that again, all of that goes to Bernie being a great teacher and making us understand that this profession is something that people should want to recognize and should understand what we do.

Um, but I'm really hopeful that it's gonna happen. I think it's a matter of time before the Oscar happens, but the Tony I think is gonna be a bigger challenge just because weirdly enough, it seems to be the most kind of insulated bubble in terms of who thinks we should have it and who thinks we shouldn't. But I'm gonna keep fighting.

[46:36] Eli Tokash: Don't get me started on the amount of categories that should be in the Tony Awards that are just simply not.

[46:42] Patrick Goodwin: Um years ago when they removed sound designers, I was like, What is happening? Who do you think creating every audio thing that happens during a show in tandem with that music? If you go to the theater and you can't hear, what's happening? You don't enjoy this show. Come on. I don't know. It's it's mind-boggling. And the swings category, there should be a swings category, there should be an ensemble category. I mean, there's just they just need to be recognized properly. I mean, that's that's it. Like, and it drives me nuts that like, you know, some of these categories aren't even nationally televised. It's like the the big ones that are, and so people, if unless you really pay close attention, aren't aren't even looking at that.

Like they don't even realize that it exists, and that's why I say kind of like the Emmys is the same way. It's like I've never seen an Emmy Awards show that I've seen a casting director win an Emmy on the stage. Like I've had to read about it afterwards, you know, type thing. Um so it's just like it it's just simple like recognition is all I'm uh kind of alluding to. Um, but yeah, it's so important.

[47:53] Eli Tokash: Anyway, I agree with that. It is.

[47:55] Patrick Goodwin: Well, thank you. Um we talk about the future in like the next five years of like casting directors and stuff like that in the last kind of answer, and that sparked another question for me, I guess. Where do you see like auditions coming in the next five years? Are we gonna live in this self-tape space in the future?

[48:13] Patrick Goodwin: I wish we had a crystal ball to be able to lay out the time when we, you know, we'll we'll be able to be in a room as easily and as comfortably and safely as we were before the pandemic. We're gonna get there. But here's what I would like to happen and what I think is probably going to happen. I think a hybrid world of self-tape if you're not in town, but ideally, please come in and audition if you can so we can work with you and or so that the team can hear you live in a room. That to me is the perfect balance of it because what we have gained from the self-taping is people who didn't have access before because they weren't in New York City, couldn't afford to fly to New York City, didn't even know that a uh live audition was happening, you know, especially in open call scenarios or for film and TV stuff, anybody can tape if they have a camera or an iPhone or a laptop, right?

Like I love that so many submissions um for open calls and EPAs and ECCs are from people who are based outside of New York. And I think that pipeline of access can't be lost because it has provided so much opportunity to people who didn't have it before, especially communities of color and uh communities of people who for one reason or another didn't feel like they belonged in New York City. Um and so that I'm hoping we don't lose that. And I and I think people are going to be much more amenable to saying, totally cool, put it on tape if you can't get here for the first round. And if you get a call back, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. And maybe we can even zoom that. Um, so that is my hope.

[49:46] Eli Tokash: Uh uh, I I don't want to lose the the access part from what we have gained during the pandemic, as painful as it was for actors to be trapped in their apartments doing self-tape after self-tape.

[49:55] Patrick Goodwin: Yeah, no, for sure. I I agree a hundred percent. And especially like with the whole movies and film, I correct me, like you can chime in if you disagree. But I just feel like in a way that that's kind of beneficial because you that's how people are gonna be watching them. I mean, so many people nowadays just stream it on their phones or computers or whatever it may be, and how you guys watch these tapes is like that's how they're gonna be seen almost. But I feel like theater it's just such a different beast because you know, you're you're in person and you're gonna go see that live and you have to see like their full body and what yeah, I don't know. Just the I guess mannerisms that they have and understand that exactly that.

[50:33] Patrick Goodwin: And and think about it in this way for the actor's benefit. If you need a moment with the pianist to get it right so that they can help you out, or if you need a moment with that reader to say, hey, I'm gonna take a beat at this line and just give me a set, like that is so much easier when you're in person. And the benefit on top of it all, of having a director being able to give you notes or adjustments, that's what makes you a better performer, you know? Having the live experience with those people in the room, I think, of course, is going to be more beneficial for the performer nine times out of ten than just doing every process of it over self-tape. Can we cast a full movie or TV show just doing tapes?

Absolutely. That is happening still left and right because there's an ease to it, there's an accessibility to it, all of that. But I think as we're starting to think more and more about theater than TV and film, I would love to be back in a room with as many as possible to help them if they want to come in. And if they don't, of course, we will make time to watch their tapes and make sure the teams are taking them seriously.

[51:34] Eli Tokash: Right, right, right. Oh my god, so cool. It's interesting when you say that it just like to think about the future because like what the pandemic did and just like isolating ourselves, like I don't know, like it's taken some time to get back out there and like put yourself back out there because I'll never forget like my first in-person audition back from the pandemic, and it was just a couple weeks ago, to be honest. And it was for like a callback for a play, and that I'd never been so nervous in my life. Like, literally, I I don't know. I don't know what it was. I was having all I was like, I didn't know what was happening. Like, literally, I was having an out-of-body experience, just like getting back in a room, and I'm just like, if I can get back into the groove of just being live and in person again, I know I'm just gonna be so much happier because this whole like I don't know, it was just it was unlike anything I experienced, and it was just uh it was a crazy experience. But hopefully, we can get back into the groove of live auditions because I love them. I don't know what was happening though in the last one.

[52:32] Patrick Goodwin: Honestly, you what you just said is is happening now, I think more than over the past three months. I'm hearing everybody come in saying this is my first audition in two and a half years. I was just in Los Angeles last week doing some live callbacks for a theater project, which was awesome. I was like, oh my god, when was the last time I got to go to LA and see LA folks live in person for this? And every single person walked in the room said the same thing. They're like, this just doesn't happen in LA. So it's a gift to walk in a room for any project, theater or TV and film. And it was such a blast. Just to it gave you that little glimmer of hope that we're heading back towards giving actors that sense of comfort if it's the kind of setting that's gonna get them the better performance and make them more comfortable.

[53:12] Eli Tokash: Yeah, for sure. I yeah, I I just can't wait for that time to be able to get back into that into that groove. But I know slowly but surely, I mean, there's now the flu's going around and everything. I don't know. There's a million things happening, and it's crazy to think that like we just acted like it was no big deal before the pandemic, and now it's just like, oh my god, we have to be so careful. What? Um, anyways, let me ask you this for people who are interested in in auditioning and stuff like that, and they don't have a manager and agent or anything like that. You know, Telsey is so brilliant in in how they kind of um advertise that. They can follow them on social media and they post the open calls and all these resources. So, can you share some of your favorite resources for those who don't have an agent or manager that are wanting to be in this business and are trying to find these auditions in an accessible way?

[54:04] Patrick Goodwin: Yeah, I I think become an internet sleuth in terms of really staying on the pulse of every social media account that offers um open call notices that offers information about other people doing projects, you know. You know, I see hashtags being led uh to one person to another to another, and that's finally how information gets to somebody. Um, so become an internet sleuth. I I think because everything is so digital now, both on social media and through backstage and playbill. Um, there's so much that is out there that you should consider. The other thing I want to say is remember you're not going to be right for everything. And that's okay. And remember, you're not gonna want to do some projects. And that's also okay. I think for so long in our industry, we've been taught, especially at the collegiate level, to just be a yes person.

[54:54] Eli Tokash: Yeah.

[54:54] Patrick Goodwin: And say yes to everything that comes your way. And I don't subscribe to that. I I think you have to know yourself really early on to say, I know I'm either not comfortable or not right for that, and I'm not gonna put myself into contention for it. Like, I love when young actors know that and can voice it in a way that really makes sense and supports who they are as a performer and as a human. Um, so in a as people are looking at these open call notices at these self-taped things, I just saw something go out today on the uh pace listserv of an open call notice for an independent film that's being done. And it's just for me reading the description, I thought of like three pace students who might be right for it.

And I was like, I'm at it. I really because they're getting those emails, I hope they submit for it because why would you not? Unless you unless you have a really compelling reason as to why you're not comfortable or right for that project, go for it if you're on the fence.

[55:51] Patrick Goodwin: Like that's the other thing. Being 50-50 about something, I always think means you should go for it. Yeah. If you are really on the fence about something, what's the worst that could happen if you submit if you know that you could be right for it? Or if you're 50% sure that you could be right for it. I think there's a lot of times where people probably do themselves a disservice by assuming that they know more than we know about the project and take it at face value for what's listed in the character descriptions and on the breakdowns. If you're available and if you think you can do it, go for it. It doesn't make any sense to not do that. It's it's access where access is.

[57:41] Patrick Goodwin: So what happened the day that little 12 year old Eli came in and auditioned for a little show called Finding Neverland for you? And you just decided, like, hey, we're gonna like have him back and maybe have him in the show. Like, what was going through your mind there? Let me, I want to hear it.

[57:59] Patrick Goodwin: Oh, I very vividly remember your audition process for the show. Actually, yeah, no, there's it's weird. I look, I'll be the first to say like I don't have the greatest memory in the world, but specific auditions always stick out if it's somebody that you know down the line, like now I know you 10 years later, or if it's somebody that just really does such a fascinatingly amazing job that they stick in your brain forever. I have a ton of people like that who didn't book the job at the end of the day, but I'm always thinking of them because of how well they did. I remember you being so unbelievably well prepared. You knew stuff, you had it wasn't just about memorizing lines, you were taking your time, you were you had certain acting beats that you wanted to make sure were very clear. You knew your music. I think vocally, I think you were nervous, but I think you did such a better job with it than you probably remember doing.

[58:49] Patrick Goodwin: Oh my god. Um, and honestly, like I gotta say, for those kids in Finding Neverland, those were hard roles. Yeah. Uh for so many reasons. You had the voice range and changing voices, and you had a British accent on top of it, and you had to be able to fit as a unit into this show with the other brothers and all of those things. Um, and you were or I think Diane Paulus would agree with me, you were a very easy hire. It was very um, it was very clear that you had the skill set and the professionalism at that young age to know how to do what that role would have did require. Um, and not a lot of kids have that just because they don't have the exposure to the audition process, which is a you know, a skill and an art in itself.

[59:32] Eli Tokash: Right.

[59:32] Patrick Goodwin: Um or don't have the range for the music or or any of these things. But I remember you being you were you're gonna probably say that this wasn't the case. You were really a plus student, you came in prepared, you did your stuff. I could tell you probably coached with somebody on it a lot and that that person probably knew what they were doing.

[59:48] Eli Tokash: Um never in my life.

[59:50] Eli Tokash: Never in my life have I I used to to the I've literally done Josh Lehman has bit coached me on like three auditions and that's about it. But that was after Neverland because I met him there. Um but no it's so funny that you say that because funny Neverland is an audition that I will never forget even if I wouldn't have gotten it because I don't know if you know this story, but uh it's very unfortunate that I did not live in New York at the time of auditioning for it. I had done Pippin so I knew Diane and I I loved going in for you. I was always comfortable around you. There are very few casting directors that I really feel comfortable with and I always feel like that like makes me a better performer when I'm like comfortable in a room. That's a whole nother conversation.

[1:00:28] Eli Tokash: But um but I will never forget it because I was so excited for it and I was so excited and I wanted to work for Diane again and blah blah blah. And so I was super prepared um for sure.

[1:00:38] Eli Tokash: And on my drive up to New York I my dad and I drove the day of the audition and I was throwing up the whole way up I don't remember this. We have no idea what happened. We don't know if it was like food poisoning from the day before I don't know if in the end maybe I was nervous and I was just throwing up because I was nervous like I don't know what it was. Maybe I was sick. We still don't know but we stopped and I was like forcing popsicles down my throat and like sucking them like all the things to like try to get myself.

[1:01:15] Eli Tokash: So and and when I auditioned for when I was that age, I mean, there was nothing that I was more confident in than my voice. So it's so interesting to hear you say that I was nervous for my voice because that may have been the only audition when I had a high voice that I was nervous for to sing because I knew the second I started singing, my whole body was hurting because it was sore from throwing up. Um it's just absolutely insane. And then I was like, guys, I think it went well, but I'm never gonna get it. Like it would it like hurt to be in that room and it was just not cute and whatever. So we went home, and then sure enough, we got the call a couple days later, and uh here we are.

[1:01:54] Patrick Goodwin: That's what you gotta do.

[1:01:56] Eli Tokash: No idea of that part of it.

[1:01:57] Patrick Goodwin: Oh, yeah. More power. This is a good story for everybody else to hear. Like, always put your safety and your health first. If you don't feel physically like you can get through something in a room, don't do it. It is not worth putting yourself in danger. But clearly you felt like you were in a place where you could get through it.

[1:02:12] Eli Tokash: Um I just wasn't gonna miss it. I you know, like I knew how badly, like it was I don't remember wanting a role so badly, like uh and then in Finding Neverland because I was up for the original Broadway cast for it because I worked with Diana Pippin and it was just quick turnaround and all the things. And I didn't have like the real like audition process for it because Pippin was closing. So then I was able to see it.

[1:02:33] Eli Tokash: Um I was able to see it in previews, and I just like fell in love with the show and was like, I'm doing everything that I can to be in the show. And that happened, and it was the day of, and I was just like, I don't care, we're going, let's drive. And my dad drove me up, and uh it happened, and you know, you you push through for the things you want, I guess. You know, you get you get it was all adrenaline. It was like adrenaline took over, and like when you want something, you just go out there and get it.

[1:03:00] Eli Tokash: And like, sorry for all those post pandemic people. Like nowadays, looking back on that, since the post pandemic, I'm like, I should have never done it. What if I got someone else in the audition room sick, whatever? Like, but like I I yeah, I don't remember wanting something so badly, and I and I I'm glad to hear that it may have flown that way. Maybe I thought that way.

[1:03:23] Patrick Goodwin: Oh my god.

[1:03:27] Eli Tokash: Yeah, it was it was a time, but uh yeah, I just had to talk to you about it because I was like, I don't know what was going through their mind. I don't even remember if like I was actually did a good job in the room because like I feel like when I was in the room, I just blacked out.

[1:03:39] Patrick Goodwin: So like it was it's interesting to hear your perspective of what happened in the room because I just remember what happened before the audition. I feel like a lot of us have that experience though of like if you're in a situation where it's surreal or something else is going on, like sometimes maybe this is the adrenaline thing that you were just talking about. Sometimes our adrenaline just like blocks out everything else to the point of like, okay, we gotta get through this, and then once I walk out that door, I'm totally fine again.

[1:04:07] Eli Tokash: Oh yeah, no, literally. That's that's exactly what it was.

[1:04:10] Patrick Goodwin: So um crazy to hear that. But uh thank you for sharing that with me, and thank you for coming on here today. I know I took up so much of your time, and I really appreciate you giving me your time.

[1:04:21] Eli Tokash: No, seriously.

[1:04:27] Eli Tokash: Pat, one more thing. I I originally started this podcast with Sydney Lucas, and um the first time we like met to be like, who would we want to like talk to? And for both of us, we both created the list. It was about 20 people each, and you were in our top 20 both hours. So this has been a long time in the making. Here are 126 episodes later, and we're I am just so thrilled to to finally have you on and to finally talk to you about casting. It's just such a cool thing, and uh something that's underrated. So I'm glad that we were able to talk about it here today.

[1:05:08] Patrick Goodwin: Oh it's my pleasure and thank you for letting me share that casting is indeed an art and a career and if people interested in it they should reach out to me and I'll do everything I can to try to get them into it.

[1:05:18] Eli Tokash: Yes where the where can they do that? Where can they find you?

[1:05:20] Patrick Goodwin: Um I'm on Instagram, I'm on Twitter. Um I'm not big on like you know living on both of those things but uh people want to get a hold of me they don't they'll find the way to get a hold of me.

[1:05:30] Eli Tokash: Okay. Sounds good. You heard it from him folks. So thank you again for doing this and uh you definitely deserve to take a vow so thank you so much.

[1:05:37] Patrick Goodwin: Thank you, Eli.

[1:05:39] Eli Tokash: Take about Patrick Goodwin.

[1:05:41] Eli Tokash: Oh my God. Well thank you first of all for sticking around if you uh stuck around till the end there because I think that ending was pretty yeah you can't get much better than that ending. Just tell your the casting director what was going on uh personally through one of the biggest auditions of my life. So thank you all for listening. Thank you so much Pat for coming on here to talk about literally the most underrated um and underappreciated role here in in our um entertainment industry fascinating to talk about the difference between film and television and what it's like to Broadway audition and just what it's like because it's a process for the casting director too.

[1:06:19] Eli Tokash: It's not just we talk about what it's like to be a performer and audition for film and TV and what the process how that differs and all the things but we've never understood it from a casting director's point of view and I absolutely love that. So hopefully there's a few of you out there who want to go into casting directoring or you want to be involved in the entertainment in some way, but you don't want to be a performer. That's totally okay. And you can do so many other things.

[1:06:42] Eli Tokash: And that's why I'm doing this little special monthly thing of you know, people to have on in the creative side of the industry that matter just as much as the performers that we all see bow on a regular basis. So Pat, appreciate you. We didn't even get into list making, which is like I would say, oh my goodness, rough guess, probably 40% of his job, maybe even more. That's really what it takes to um, you know, call the right people in, making sure they're available, all of that thing, what they've done, all of that.

[1:07:14] Eli Tokash: It's it's literally generating lists for artists in our community and artists that could be potential call-ins. So it was really great. I loved taking his class. I think I mentioned briefly about the class that I was taking on here last year, and absolutely loved it. Pat is someone who's extremely involved in the industry and in our community, always lending his time for greater good and education and all the things.

[1:07:40] Eli Tokash: So him coming on here today was a dream come true and not a surprise because he's just so sweet and always is willing to lend and talk about uh casting and the future of it. So if y'all are interested, totally reach out to him. Pat's one of my favorite people in the world. I I wanted to talk to him about if he prides himself on making the audition room so so comfortable and welcoming because there aren't many auditioned room as a performer that I could feel like I can go into and be like, oh my god, I know I'm gonna kill this audition because I don't have anything to worry about because it's Pat.

[1:08:14] Eli Tokash: You know, Pat knows me. Pat wouldn't have called me in here if if he didn't want me to be here. He knows what he can expect from me. He knows I'm gonna show up well prepared and I'm gonna go in and do my best and do what I can, and uh he he's gonna listen to me, and and there's no better feeling than as a performer than the feeling of being heard and being understood.

[1:08:35] Eli Tokash: And Pat does that in a five minute, 10 minute audition. And I always get excited when I see Telsey and Co. or Patrick Goodwin on my uh audition breakdown. So Pat again, thank you so much for coming on. Cannot appreciate you enough. I can't appreciate you for literally casting me in my favorite my two favorite projects, really, but also my favorite project in Finding Neverland. And yeah, I'm just so grateful.

[1:09:01] Eli Tokash: So to be able to talk to him, and uh hopefully you all learned a little bit about casting or as a performer, what a casting director looks for, and uh hopefully it all helps you out to get you your next big role. So thank you so much for um listening to this week's episode. We did have two episodes this week. If you didn't notice or listen to it already, yesterday we released the cost of living red carpet opening night episode, which was very, very exciting.

[1:09:30] Eli Tokash: We had so many important conversations in that episode. It's literally like 20 25 minutes, it's super quick, super cute. Go check it out if you're interested. But this was this was a big one. And to have a casting director, this is our second casting director of all time here on Take A Bow. So very excited to to chat with him and hopefully you all learned something. So thank you again for listening.

[1:09:50] Eli Tokash: And I hope to see you all next week on Thursday with a possible stage manager. Very exciting. So we're gonna get a production stage manager who's literally worked on all of your favorite musicals, literally. So we're gonna get into it, but he he's been in not in, but like involved in like 30 Broadway productions. So we're gonna talk all about it.

[1:10:15] Eli Tokash: He's literally a legend, one of the top production stage managers and stage managers in our industry. So we're gonna talk all about it, and I hope to see you there for it. So thank you all again for listening, and I will see you all next week. Bye everyone. Have a great week.

[1:10:35] Eli Tokash: For this episode's curtain call, I would like to recognize a few people who also deserve to take a bow. This podcast would not be possible without the help from Dory Barrenstein, Alan Seals, Kimberly Garrett, and the team at the Broadway Podcast Network. Next in line to take a bow are our fabulous editors, Jessica Gorin, who edits the audio of the podcast that you just listened to, and Tessie Tokash, who edits the videos and visuals for this podcast.

[1:10:59] Eli Tokash: And how about a bow for our executive producer, Chris Greiner? And our final bow are extra special to the patrons Brian Thompson, Pat McNamara, the listeners of PCC, as well as all of the other patrons for their continued support. If you're interested in becoming a patron, go to Patreon.com slash TAB. If you enjoyed this week's episode, make sure to subscribe on the platform that you are currently listening to this on, or go check out our YouTube where you can watch the episode.

[1:11:24] Eli Tokash: You can also subscribe, like, and comment on there as well. If you're more into the regular social media and want to follow us, you can do that at Take About Podcast across all social media platforms. The music of this podcast was made by Nikki Torsha and Cormac Collinon, and the logo was created by Giselle Bustos. And that wraps up this episode's curtain call. Thank you all again for listening to this week's episode, and I can't wait to see you next week. Bye, everyone. Have a great week.