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[0:00] Eli Tokash: This week's guest does it all. She is a two-time award winner for best choreographer. Uh she has produced shows on Broadway, off Broadway, and Disney Plus. And nowadays she is spearheading new works. One uh in particular is really exciting because we get to work a lot uh alongside one another in a new project called Truth, a nonfictional choreo poem. I am thrilled to welcome to Take a Bow this week, Josie Bray.

[0:31] Josie Bray: Hi Eli.

[1:03] Eli Tokash: Hi, Josie. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited. Okay, so for everyone that doesn't know, Josie and I met uh well, she was one of the lead producers uh on Trevor. So Josie.

[1:03] Josie Bray: I was known each other for for quite some time now, and uh now I get to she's she's kind of um recruited me to join the other side of the table. So I'm I'm very excited to learn all about that.

[1:03] Josie Bray: There is a fun fact about me, which I will share with you. My name is Josie, it's not Josie.

[1:06] Eli Tokash: Oh my gosh.

[1:07] Josie Bray: I know so many people pronounce it wrong. People who have known me for 20 years pronounce it wrong.

[1:11] Eli Tokash: Oh my god.

[1:12] Josie Bray: Yeah, it's got a soft S.

[1:14] Eli Tokash: Oh my god, I'm so sorry.

[1:16] Josie Bray: It's okay. I'm just letting you know that.

[1:19] Eli Tokash: How did I never do that?

[1:21] Josie Bray: It's very rare that you introduce me, Eli.

[1:23] Eli Tokash: You just run, we'll just fix that right now.

[1:27] Josie Bray: Josie.

[1:28] Eli Tokash: Oh my god. I got it. I got it, everyone. I'm so sorry. I feel so bad. That's like my number one thing. Like, I'm so bad with names, and like my anxiety from doing these is literally the pronunciation of like names.

[1:42] Josie Bray: Oh, you know what? It's all good. So many people, I just like I'm like, well, if I was pronouncing someone's name wrong who I liked a lot, I would want them to tell me.

[1:49] Eli Tokash: Yes.

[1:50] Josie Bray: So I just tell people.

[1:52] Eli Tokash: Oh my god.

[1:53] Josie Bray: And it does not hurt my feelings. It's very subtle, but it's Josie.

[1:57] Eli Tokash: Good to know. Uh like I usually ask all the guests like beforehand. Like I check in, but I was like, oh, I know this one. I don't need to check in. I got the pronunciation. Hello. Um, anyways, I'm the worst. So um let's just get into this thing.

[2:16] Josie Bray: Thank you. The way I usually like to start these things is really starting at the beginning and asking you, you know, like how did we get here? Like, what inspired you to just want to get into this industry and want to be someone to tell stories?

[2:35] Josie Bray: Oh, well, I always loved dance. I was I I did dance in theater in high school, but um I um I went to Emerson College, which is in Boston, and I studied dance there, but like part way through my dance training, I was like, okay, but wait a minute, I missed the storytelling part because you know the con the concert dance world works more in sort of um abstractions, right? Abstract movement.

[2:59] Josie Bray: Yeah, and I really loved the way that movement helped tell stories. So my dances were always a little bit more theatrical. Um and then my senior year of college, um, one of my professors asked if I would like to choreograph a musical that he was directing, and I said yes. Um, and the rest is history.

[3:24] Eli Tokash: What? Oh my god, that's amazing. So did you go to college for commercial dance?

[3:30] Josie Bray: No, I went to college for modern dance. I went to college for experimental dance. So I was trained in like and I and um dance programs were changing at that time. So my the program at my college was like one of the last ones that did like classical modern dance, like Martha Graham technique, Cunningham, Lamone. That's what I was trained in.

[3:51] Josie Bray: And and dance programs at that time were starting to change into the way they are now, which is more the training is more um, I mean, at the time they called it release technique, but the the training has become much more um fluid in terms of shapes, you know. Like Martha Graham, it's like you know, all about contractions, right? The shapes are very angular, and then dance programs now have shifted into a whole other kind of vocabulary.

[4:22] Josie Bray: So yeah, so I was I was trained as a dancer, and then um, and I was like, okay, this is great, but like I like stories. And so I then I started shifting into musical theater, and it was really funny. Like in my early professional life, um, John Ambercino, who you know, and I started working together. And when we first started working together, um we were working on musicals, and we would be like the beginning of the number, and I would be like, Okay, for this piece, and he was like, That's so funny, Josie. We don't call them a piece, we call that a number. And I'm like, I was just like so used to dances where like dances you call it of this dance piece, you know.

[4:58] Eli Tokash: Oh, that's so funny.

[4:59] Josie Bray: Um so like that took me years to get out of the habit of calling things a piece and shifting back over to like no no, this is a musical number, you know.

[5:07] Eli Tokash: Oh my gosh.

[5:08] Josie Bray: Yeah, so that was how I started.

[5:10] Eli Tokash: Yeah, see, kids, you don't have to go to college for musical theater, you know. You you do not do all the things and still not love it. Um wow, I haven't really like focused a lot at that time on new work, like, and so like my senior year, I kind of like moved into I did like a dual track like dance and theater. And um, you know, there were like devising courses and that sort of thing. And I I got my grad work in theater education. I thought I was gonna be a theater teacher, and I have done that. I mean, I've taught college, uh, you know, but for a few years I was teaching middle school and high school theater. Um, so yeah, so I got like all this training in devising and new work, and so uh really truthfully I've done new work from the beginning. I mean, I t did a few years where I choreographed existing musicals, but I've been making work from scratch since I was in college.

[6:05] Eli Tokash: I love it.

[6:06] Josie Bray: It's so fascinating.

[6:08] Eli Tokash: It's really fun.

[6:09] Josie Bray: Yeah, exactly. And I think new works is I mean, we've had the conversation about how new works excite each of us in in all the ways. Um I I love it. So uh I've gotta ask because like, you know, you uh I've been fortunate enough to like have uh actually most of my like recent guests, I would say like three out of the four, um, have kind of started as performers and then they've transitioned into this other space in the industry, you know, that there's so many fields of our our industry that people like forget about. And um I think it's really cool that you obviously started as a performer and then kind of went to both choreography, uh you you you've dabbled in directing, I mean producing, all of the things. So like what was that transition like for you? Was it did you kind of have to relearn anything or did your approach kind of stay the same?

[7:06] Josie Bray: Um, how did how was that transition for you?

[7:10] Josie Bray: Yeah, sure. Well, you know, I grew up in a really rural place. Yeah. And um, you know, I I loved my music and theater teacher and my dance teacher, but we were like in the middle of nowhere, you know. And so I didn't grow up going to a fancy conservatory with really strict training. Yeah. So I, you know, when I got to college, I was like, I mean, I loved the people I trained with when I was a kid, but it I was behind in a way, you know.

[7:38] Eli Tokash: Right.

[7:38] Josie Bray: But how I've always been really strong is I've always been really smart and I've always been a natural leader. You know, I I was like president of a bunch of clubs in high school and I tutored and stuff, like that's always been just a natural role for me. And I studied um education. So I, you know, I was really kind of used to running groups of people and being in charge of groups of people. So when I became a dancer, I I struggled with a lot of the training. I mean, what's great now is like as a teacher, because my because my dance training was not super solid when I was a young person, when I was super young, um, that makes me a really good teacher because I had to learn things, you know, I I wasn't naturally talented as a dancer, I had to really work to become a good dancer.

[8:28] Josie Bray: And truthfully, you know, there were times when I struggled, but I wouldn't take a moment of that back because I've learned so much. I understand the body so well, and I'm pretty good at communicating it to people who might not understand because I know I can relate.

[8:43] Eli Tokash: Right.

[8:44] Josie Bray: Um, but very early on in my dance training, we had to take choreography classes, and right away I like I just gravitated toward them. I loved, I loved directing people, I loved directing dancers, I loved creating stories. For me, um well, I think theater is like one of our oldest ways of communicating as human beings. I think it's like it's so human. It's like when what we did was, you know, like kill a thing and roast it over a fire, and then we would gather around the fire and we would tell stories and we would sing and we would dance, you know, we would make fear for each other. It's like it's so it's intrinsic to who we are.

[9:29] Eli Tokash: Yeah, so it was pretty early on for me that I was like, oh no, I, you know, I will I will be in other people's stories, but I'm really interested in having um a clear hand and a and clear guidance in terms of what is the story we're telling and who do we want to share it with.

[9:48] Eli Tokash: Right. Yeah, I love that. I mean, I think that uh I don't know, for for the longest time, I mean, granted lately and and just recently we've all gotten more um I guess open-minded and willing to have conversations, uh, but I feel like for the longest time those like heavy conversations were only brought on by art and by theater. Um and so it it's interesting to to kind of hear you kind of say that in the sense of like that was the main source of you know dealing with things or or or making things up, you know, creating things.

[10:27] Josie Bray: Yeah, and it's a really great way to help start conversations. Like sometimes people aren't willing to talk, just talk talk, but you can be like, okay, but what about that story? Like what what about that character, you know, which can help people like start to get the wheels turning you know in terms of how whatever they might have witnessed with those characters on stage might affect them as well or affect the world around them right so so let me ask you like how do you uh approach so as uh you know whether it be a choreographer whether it be a producer um how do you sort of I don't know get on board of it all because it's not like for you with new works and everything like that it's not traditionally like you have to audition because a lot of these ideas are coming from you um so I'm curious to like how does it work in just you know jump starting it all for you yeah well you know good news bad news my brain is wildly creative I I am both blessed and cursed by that totally I love it but we all love it we all love the brain of Josie Brown yeah so I mean usually um I you know I'm I read a lot I take in a lot of current events I've always been really social and pretty political um and I essentially you know I'm like chewing on something and I and and often in conversation with friends or other artists about it I'm like okay wait a minute let's make a play about this right like what you know, where what is there a story here that we could share with people? And that's that's really been the what has driven me.

[12:24] Josie Bray: And I've gotten also, I mean, you know, we go through different phases in our careers, and so I would say, you know, in my 20s, um, I sort of did the thing that a lot of college professors will say this, right.

[12:36] Josie Bray: Like, like, take anything, take anything, take everything, take all the things.

[12:40] Josie Bray: And that worked for me for a while.

[12:43] Josie Bray: It was a really great way to get a lot of experience and meet a lot of people, and it's how I have met some of my dearest friends and collaborators now.

[12:53] Josie Bray: But now I'm in my 40s, I've got a kiddo. I, you know, and I'm uh I'm much more now like, okay, I only have a certain amount of energy and a certain amount of time. I'm gonna be really specific about the kinds of projects I want to make. I know that I want to make new work, and I'm particularly interested in new work that um highlights or amplifies the voices of people who have not had that opportunity or who have been systemically oppressed or systemically marginalized. Um that's just what's interesting to me. And it's I don't think all people need to be interested in that. It is what I'm interested in, and so that's where I tend to gravitate in in terms of stories. So, you know, I'll be curious about something, I'll read a book about it, and then I'll be like, huh, I wonder if that could turn into a musical, and then I'll just look at the rights. Like totally, absolutely.

[13:54] Eli Tokash: Now, uh let me ask you, because I don't I don't want to say there's like an unwritten rule of like, you know, producers uh you know have their space and then the the the creative team of like the director, choreographer, all of that have their space as someone who is kind of just naturally gifted with all of those things is it hard in in a rehearsal process per se like even take Trevor for example to remind yourself oh like today this I'm wearing the producer hat where if you're sitting in a rehearsal you you can't like jump up there and be like oh I think the choreography should be this and like do something.

[13:54] Josie Bray: Oh that's so funny I you know I think that maybe would have been a struggle for me as a younger person but when you put together a team of really talented people like the team of Trevor I mean you build an amazing trust with those people over time and so you know like Mark Rooney, Josh Prince, Dan, Julianne they're brilliant right so and so there's a a beautiful collaboration and trust with those artists and you know I I will say you know not all producers have been in the artistic realm so I do think one of the strengths I bring to a process is is I am a creative yeah I'm a producer but I'm a creative producer and so I I really like it the idea does not have to be mine right and in fact it's often better if it's not you know the the beautiful thing about theater is it is inherently collaborative.

[15:40] Josie Bray: The thing we make is better with all of us than just one person dominating or one person having all the ideas. And then when you've built that trust, then when you bump into something that you disagree about, there's a there's a relationship in which you can have that conversation and trust each other, like, okay, you know, I I vote over here, I vote over here, and then eventually we have to come to a decision, you know.

[16:11] Eli Tokash: Right.

[16:11] Josie Bray: But um, but yeah, mostly I I'm just like delighted to work with extremely talented people, and really talented people are also often um willing to take suggestions, right? So it's so it's not like oh I want to jump up there and do blah blah blah. But you know, you can watch a person's work and be like, hey, have you thought about this? Or you know, this this issue seems to keep coming up. What do you think would be the best solution there, you know?

[16:42] Eli Tokash: Totally. Wow, interesting. I always wonder that because I was like, I want to be a producer, but I feel like that would be like too difficult for me to like not want to like it.

[16:53] Josie Bray: You would want to hop in there too much.

[16:55] Eli Tokash: 100%.

[16:56] Josie Bray: 100%. And not only like, I don't know, like I obviously don't want to give like notes or anything, but like I like to be in control. And so um, you know, I feel like that would be super like I don't know, have to learn how to to manage all of that.

[17:13] Josie Bray: Well, it's an interesting experience to be in a producer role because the buck does stop with you, like you have to make sure everybody's doing their job, right?

[17:23] Eli Tokash: Right.

[17:24] Josie Bray: So you have to make sure everybody's doing their job. If you jump in and do other people's job, then you're not gonna be able to do your job, which is making sure that everybody's doing their job.

[17:33] Eli Tokash: Totally.

[17:34] Josie Bray: Right. So, like uh, I'm my role, and and that's the role on this piece too on Truth, you know, my role is to continually build conversations with my team to make sure everybody knows what they need to do, and that if they don't know what to do or if they need support, that I can give them support. I mean, you know, I just had a little check-in with you before this meeting, right? Before this, right? It's like, okay, just checking in. Do you know that this is what the next step is? And this step and this step. Have you done those things?

[18:07] Eli Tokash: Right.

[18:08] Josie Bray: Where are you? What still needs to be done? That is more the role is to really understand because the getting the thing to move, like all of the pieces need to work at once. And this person over here isn't necessarily paying attention to this person over here to see if they're ready at the same time. So something that my, you know, being in that producer role is like, okay. All right, people. What's happening over there? What's happening over there? Are we all ready to go? Because we can't go until we're all ready to go.

[18:44] Eli Tokash: Totally. Now, like, did you learn all of this? I I I don't want to say this was your first, but I think this is your first producing venture.

[18:54] Josie Bray: Like during your the 2009 revival of Ragtime.

[18:58] Eli Tokash: Um, was that kind of I was assistant director on that project.

[19:03] Josie Bray: I wasn't I thought you were producer on that.

[19:06] Nope.

[19:06] Eli Tokash: What?

[19:07] Josie Bray: No, I was Marcia Milgram Dodge's assistant and Josh Walden was her associate. I was their assistant.

[19:13] Eli Tokash: Oh my god. Wait, I'm obsessed. I didn't even know. So wait, how did you even like figure out this whole pr system to produce them?

[19:23] Josie Bray: Oh, well, John and I had had a small little theater company in Boston before I moved to New York.

[19:28] Eli Tokash: Right.

[19:29] Josie Bray: So we had produced um musicals. We had produced revivals of musicals and sort of um interesting takes on revivals of musicals for years in Boston. And before that, I'd had my own dance company in Boston. So when I was making work, so that's when I say I've been making new work for 20 years. Like I started making concert dance, and when you make concert dance, you're the choreographer, but you're also the producer.

[19:52] Eli Tokash: Right.

[19:53] Josie Bray: So I mean, I started producing my own work literally my first year out of college, it would have been 2001.

[19:59] Eli Tokash: Wow.

[20:00] Josie Bray: Yeah. So, you know, once you move to bigger projects like off Broadway and Broadway, it's the same thing. It's just bigger. Like the budgets are bigger, the mistakes are bigger, the triumphs are bigger, right? It's just that like you're not stapling together a mattress at four in the morning, which John and I did one time in the early aughts, right? Because our set designer didn't do the thing. Instead, you're like sitting in a huge theater with another big problem, right? The problem is a lot more expensive and a lot more time consuming, but it's still like mistakes happen on all levels. It's troubleshooting on all levels.

[20:40] Eli Tokash: Yeah.

[20:40] Josie Bray: Oh my gosh. Yeah. Because it like I I always say that, like as a performer, even like Broadway is just the same as anywhere else. Like you're you're performing, you're there to do a job, you're there to tell a story. You know, like it and honestly, it's bigger in the sense of budgets and everything, but oftentimes like you're playing at bigger houses like regionally. Like the Broadway theaters aren't that big.

[21:01] Eli Tokash: Um, a lot of people don't know that.

[21:03] Josie Bray: They're pretty small and they're old, you know. You know, there's not an ability to like, oh, let's just renovate this. Like, that's not happening.

[21:10] Eli Tokash: Right.

[21:12] Josie Bray: Well, I mean, unless there's a pandemic and they actually use the time to do the good things.

[21:19] Eli Tokash: But yeah.

[21:23] Josie Bray: Fair enough. That's another conversation for another day.

[21:29] Eli Tokash: So oh my god, I'm so sorry. Um I probably shouldn't have said that, but that's fine. Um let's talk about Trevor. Uh, because you know, I I'm just I I I love revisiting it, you know, and having friends and and people on from that show. Um and you talk, uh I mean, we could still stay in this conversation. Like, you talk about taking these calculated risks and all these mistakes and all these things. So, like with a show like Trevor, which is you know, is now on Disney Plus, like it's it's kind of like it's gained such a large following, and and obviously with the Trevor Project and all of these great things, you know, like it's a recognizable show. So um, you know, we talking about the calculated risk, there's a lot of calculated decisions that go along with that, from you know, when to start the reading, and then doing this out of town tryout, and then even like what do we do next?

Do we do another out of town? Do we do another off? Do we do an off Broadway run? Do we wait for a Broadway house? Like, all of these things kind of uh were happening, and I kind of watched that process. So I'm curious to ask you now, like, how how how did those decisions kind of get made? Is it really the four of you producers that um kind of just say, hey, this is the route? Is it talking to the directors and all of this, like looking for availability? Like, like how just there's so many things that factor into it. Why don't you can you explain um I guess some of those that people may not understand?

[23:01] Josie Bray: Sure. I mean, the answer to everything that you said is yes, like the answer that it's it's D. All of the great literally all of those things.

[23:11] Eli Tokash: I know there's so much in there that I was like, how do I phrase this?

[23:15] Josie Bray: Yeah. So uh so you know, and uh and I will say, like, you know, on my next projects, it the process will probably be different because more people will know who I am.

[23:25] Eli Tokash: Oh, yeah.

[23:26] Josie Bray: So it like a lot of it also has to do with who you know and who like who do you have relationships with? Because there's um shows that open in New York tend to do better if they've opened at a nonprofit out of town. That's just the statistics, but just is how it goes. So we always knew that we were hoping to open somewhere out of town. Um, and and they're they're more likely to succeed if they open at a regional theater versus opening commercially out out of town. Now that doesn't mean that there aren't exceptions, right? But so we were we were looking for a nonprofit theater that would be willing and excited to host Trevor. And we were in conversation with a number of different theaters.

[24:14] Josie Bray: Um, as you can probably imagine, people choose their seasons quite a bit ahead of time. Right. So when you're in the kind of there's the early development stage where you're trying to get a script and you do these readings, and at some point you want to do a reading in New York so that some people in New York can see that the thing has promise. And then also, hopefully, you get people to come to that reading. Right. Be able to help you move it to another place. Right. To help like might be able to help you like get it into a into a regional theater if that's what you want to do. So we had been, we've been talking to a bunch of different theaters. Um then Dye Glazer, who is Mark Bruni's agent. Oh, she said, you know, there's this theater outside of Chicago. And um you guys might be interested in these folks. And so we um we flew down and met them, you know, and we hit it off right away. The team there's writers, right? This is writer's theater.

[25:30] Eli Tokash: Oh, okay. I I didn't know if there was like one before that or what.

[25:32] Josie Bray: You know, we had we've been talking to some other theaters too, but like the how it happened to happen this time, yeah, like how we happened to get at writers was that Mark Bruni's agent had someone in common at the writers' theater.

[25:51] Josie Bray: And so it and it was really uh, it was again it's a relationship thing, right? So she had a relationship with someone there, they had um not done an enhanced production yet, and enhanced production is when a regional theater produces something that has commercial intentions, right? The writer's theater, I don't know if you know this, but before Trevor opened, the writer's theater had been in a bookstore, it had been in a tiny little bookstore. So like they they were it was their first or second season in their new space. So to do a uh show that was intending to move to New York commercially that was like an exciting thing for their new space right and then to do it that like they also really wanted to work with newer producers they were excited that we were kind of new on the scene you know new on the commercial scene like John and I had been producing for a long time but we were we were new in terms of New York producers um so they were excited about that and then of course they were excited about the story and then they were excited about the writing and so like all of those things lined up sure and then that just became a series of you know beautiful relationships that still continue today oh my god you know like Kate Lapuma the director she's awesome right and oh my goodness we we can my queen my queen shout out if you're listening um like we continue to have a wonderful relationship with them right and so that's that is how it happened this time right and you kind of with each project you're trying to find like okay who are the right people for this project who's the right fit who's the right audience you know yeah the audience in Glencoe loved Trevor and also um the writers theater did a really great job of being able to get some school performances so we had like very early on and you remember Eli because you right like I actually love the school performances I will say I don't like waking up but once I'm there I'm there, man.

[28:01] Josie Bray: Like I love those. I live for those kids. I saw one of them and the kids were just so they go nuts. They went nuts and like an intermission, they would be like, What's gonna happen? Oh my god, what's gonna happen? I'm so stressed. I love it. So good. I know it that always, you know, like the it they're so energetic, you know, so early in the day. Um but it's great because you know, we we thrive and feed off of that, so we it's very much appreciated. Um, but no, like Trevor, uh the story and everything, like it it it it speaks to so many people and it it's it you know, it really is something really special. The the whole story, the Trapper project, yeah, like everything about that family was just from day one, you kind of just felt like we this is this is something special and this is gonna be something special. Um and it was just an honor to be a part of it. So I I loved um, you know, how it all it fell into place is pretty pretty neat to learn about with Mark Bruni and his agent.

[29:14] Josie Bray: Um so l let me ask you this now, and and I guess this is like maybe people know this, maybe people don't know this, but even after like so we did the run at at Glenclaw at Writers and the out of town, and then there was still you then it went to another reading, you know, and there were still um I guess th there was an there it felt as though there was a need to continue to write the story and and fine-tune things. Um, so shows don't really you know don't really freeze until like they open on Broadway. Um so how does that kind of like impact you as a producer where things are kind of changing last minute and maybe you need to throw in you need to move things around to make that happen. How how does that kind of affect you uh with the director or writers adding new pieces and things like that? Does it?

[30:16] Josie Bray: Yeah, sure. Well, you know, um one of you know, hopefully you've been able to workshop it enough so that the changes you're making by the time you're opening in New York are small. And the reason for that is if you've already moved into tech in New York and you have to make a big change, that's gonna be really expensive. Right. Right. So like we did make um not a big change, but uh a decent uh uh uh we made a design change um in Trevor after uh like the original when we opened in New York originally that um that dream dance sequence was going to be um dresses like almost like a prom dresses from the 80s. Stop it, stop, yeah, yeah. That was originally what we were gonna do. And then we so and so we you know, we'd done a budget based on that.

Sure. Right. And then we started exploring that and realizing like, you know what, this is not gonna read because if we get um like vintage prom dresses, they're gonna look kind of old on these kids, which doesn't fit with the rest of the costume world of the show.

[31:33] Josie Bray: If we build them, it's gonna be really expensive. Yeah. So we had to make a decision after we we were already going into production, we had to make a decision to change the costuming there. And you know, that that's an expensive decision, but it it's absolutely worth it, you know, because the Disney recording has what we produced in New York, and that just the idea of those 80s dresses just wasn't gonna work. And what we have now works really well, you know, right? So part of the process of like making changes, and and this is the thing with new work, you know. Um, Mark and John and I were with the project from the beginning. The fourth producer, Roy, came in for the New York run. But Mark and John and I are the people who had been there from the beginning. Right. And so we could track like creatively, okay.

[32:26] Josie Bray: We already tried this and that didn't work, right? We already tried this, our hair doesn't work. Like that's girl, we tried it all. Yeah, girl, we tried it all. It really is, I mean, I'm a mom, it's very much like raising a kid, I'm not gonna lie, right? Like sometimes you're like, okay, this thing has poopy diapers. Bummer. We gotta trade that. Okay, we're learning how to walk. Oh, we fell down. Okay. Um, so you know, what you you miss out on that a little bit when you come in late in the process. And you know, everybody's got their own role. Like Roy really loves taking on projects once he's already seen that they're creatively ready to go. That's what that's what he does, right? And what I do is I make new work from the zygote. Like I make it from the beginning. Totally.

[33:17] Josie Bray: So if you can track the changes over the, you know, really it took almost a decade. Um, then hopefully, if you're really paying attention by the time you get to producing it on a commercial level when it gets really expensive, you you've already kind of nipped the big changes in the bud. Right. Right. Some if you if you rush a show to New York too quick, you're gonna that's gonna be like, oh okay the the enormous puppet we built doesn't work. Uh oh yeah that's real. That puppet cost seventy thousand dollars just the puppet yeah we've seen some of those recently we see some of those on Broadway.

[34:02] Josie Bray: Oh boy. Um wow but that's crazy so and then of course like you know with the producing and everything like that so not only do you have to worry about you know location where we put this thing uh raising money all these things but you also have to thankfully you don't have to I guess you you were part of the casting of the cast but you have to cast the creative team um so I obviously you you guys made an incredible team with Julian McDavis Dan Collins Mark Bruni Josh Wood uh Josh Prince Josh Woods who's Josh Woods uh Josh Prince um and um you know and now with truth you you brought on Gail McBurton um who is just a phenomenal writer and historian all the things like w how how does that process work is it like an audition where you're bringing in all these people are you simply talking about this uh in ideas with one another, and you kind of see where your ideas align.

[35:03] Josie Bray: Like how how is that process? Well, with Trevor, we we did an old school audition. Oh my gosh. Producers used to do that. Producers used to audition writers like back in the day. So for Trevor, we did an old school audition. We actually put a call out and we auditioned a bunch of writers. And then we chose Dan and Julian and we we met all kinds of really talented writers. We had conversations with them. They brought in demo tapes. I mean, they weren't tapes, they were MP3 files, but they brought in demos.

[35:33] Josie Bray: Um, I just became 90. Yep. Yeah. Um, you know, and we had conversations with them, and then we would listen to the work, and then we like narrowed it down to three teams, and then those three teams had to do a presentation with us and the underlying rights holders. And then we chose Dan and Julian. Wait, I'm obsessed. Yeah. That sounds so cool. It's very cool.

[35:59] Josie Bray: That's totally different than Gail. So that you know, again, every project's different. Every project has its own process. So with Gail, she and I met in the um part-time faculty office at Emerson College, and we were talking, and um I had worked my the one of the first professional plays I ever choreographed was for colored girls who considered suicide. Yeah, and she was talking about it, and she said, Did you know that Entizake Shanghei, the writer of that, mentored me when I was a young poet? Wow. I was like, no, I did not know that. I didn't even know that.

[36:34] Josie Bray: Yeah, no, they were they worked together. Wow. Um, and so you know, she she told me that, and then we had she and I just got into a lot of trouble at Emerson. That's what we did together. We just like we're troublemakers. I don't believe it. I I'm a troublemaker, it's how it goes. I'm a little wacky, a little neurodivergent, and a little bit of a troublemaker. It's just how it um so.

[37:00] Josie Bray: So uh yeah, so she and I were just like getting into trouble at Emerson, and then the pandemic hit, and it was like, no, we just happened the way it happened to be at that time, we happened to live a mile away from each other. Oh and so we could meet outside, you know, like in the early days when it was like you can just like meet people outside, like you're it was like you can't even know.

[37:23] Josie Bray: Oh my god, it was bad. It's all text. It's she and I she would meet, we would meet outside, yeah, and go for walks, and so then we just started talking about different projects. And then and then when I was working on Trevor, I was like, oh yeah, like what other projects do I want to work on? I want to work on some projects that really focus on women, you know, because that our industry is very male-dominated, you know, and I'm I have uh um abolitionists in my lineage and my heritage in my ancestry, and Gail and I often talked about abolitionists, and I was like, what if we make a play called Truth about Sojourner Truth? She was like, she got really excited.

[38:09] Josie Bray: Yeah, and I pitched that idea to Selesha too, and she got really excited. And so, like that was just the idea. But ideas come, you know, they come walking through Central Park, they come in the shower, they come when you're hanging out with your pets. I love it. Honestly, like it surprises me with the with this particular project of truth that like nothing like this exists.

[38:32] Josie Bray: Like, I I don't even know if a lot of this information that I've kind of like uncovered, not uncovered, but like have come across, um, is even like public knowledge, like not it doesn't seem like it's taught in like history classes or anything like that.

[38:48] Eli Tokash: No, I mean the truth, haha truth about slavery in our country is that it was the basis of the entire economy.

[39:00] Josie Bray: Yeah.

[39:01] Eli Tokash: And when slavery became outlawed, that it got covered up.

[39:09] Josie Bray: Like it got covered up, it got covered up. And so we we know this sort of like stock story, right? And we and we think of it in a very particular way, like it was in the South, it existed in this particular way. But the truth of it is it was everywhere, and it it existed in lots of different spaces. So it's been covered up for lots of reasons. It's uh it's an inconvenient uh reality that capitalism is based on the slavery model, you know, our modern American capitalism. It not trade, not money, but modern American capitalism is sort of a hybrid between the structures that were in place in a slave economy and then some things that got carried over from the Middle Ages from the feudalism.

[39:58] Eli Tokash: Right.

[39:58] Josie Bray: So there you know, there was a lot of reasons to cover that up. Our our constitution says that all men are created equal. Right? But that but black people were considered three-fifths of a person for a very long time and had no voting rights, right? And women had no voting rights.

[40:16] Eli Tokash: Right.

[40:18] Josie Bray: Black women, yeah, exactly.

[40:20] Eli Tokash: Right, right. I mean, Eli, I was born in 1979. Women in the United States were not allowed to own a credit card when I was born again.

[40:31] Josie Bray: So, you know, I'm not saying that to be a big bummer.

[40:35] Eli Tokash: Right.

[40:36] Josie Bray: I actually I think it's joyful to be like, hey guys, did you go about this?

[40:41] Eli Tokash: Yeah.

[40:42] Josie Bray: Totally. It's just more like because we have been kind of fed these stories around individualism, right? Like, I on my own am supposed to be successful, right? The reality is we're interconnected. We're all interconnected. We we are in relationship. That's what it is to be a human being. And it's only as what it is to be a theater artist.

[41:08] Eli Tokash: Right.

[41:08] Josie Bray: Um, you know, I get really excited about telling stories because we're all related. You know? We're all human beings.

[41:21] Eli Tokash: Yes, we're only matters.

[41:24] Josie Bray: Yeah. And when and when you start looking at the history, you know, um, we're also actually related. Like black, white division. It's we're all in the mix. No doubt. It's it's man-made, basically.

[41:40] Eli Tokash: The racism and everything.

[41:42] Josie Bray: It's just yeah, and that's not to say, you know, it is it is a construct, and also construct is used for oppression all the time. So that's not to say, oh, it doesn't matter. It really does matter. Um, and that's that's why I'm passionate and excited about this project, because it matters. And these abolitionist women were so incredible, right?

[42:03] Eli Tokash: Yes.

[42:03] Josie Bray: Like, under ridiculous circumstances. Where they like, yeah, I'm not doing that.

[42:12] Eli Tokash: Yeah.

[42:13] Josie Bray: I'm I'm not doing that. Let's just say the women had bigger balls than I could ever have. Like, let's be real here. Just unbelievable, truly.

[42:26] Eli Tokash: And that's what I'm talking about.

[42:27] Josie Bray: Heroic.

[42:28] Eli Tokash: Heroic.

[42:29] Josie Bray: Oh, beyond. That's like to say the least. Um, but I love, you know, this kind of I I don't know, the the title that we've created here with truth. Like, I don't know if that like if that doesn't stick out to you, I don't know how that even like I don't know what that does to you. Um, but because like it's not just like Sojourner Truth. And it's not even like the life of Sojourner Truth, right? It's it it's it's you know, based on female abolitionists uh and the truth behind that.

[43:00] Eli Tokash: Um I think what Gail's getting, I mean, and I know you've interviewed her too, and some of those videos are gonna be up online soon, but like Gail's gotten really interested in like who are these other abolitionist women who nobody's heard of.

[43:16] Josie Bray: Yeah.

[43:17] Eli Tokash: You know, and and what were they doing?

[43:20] Josie Bray: Right.

[43:22] Eli Tokash: It's crazy.

[43:23] Josie Bray: It it's uh uh unreal and and learning all about it and and um you know, this works just really excites me, and I can't wait to see what comes of it. Um Yeah, it and so we have a uh crowdfunding campaign launching very soon. Um and for for anyone listening, uh they're able to to donate and and uh, you know, support the project and support this work.

[43:49] Eli Tokash: So um, where where can can you kind of point anyone to that? What can people expect from it? Um, talk to us a little bit about that, as that's one of the major steps to producing.

[44:01] Josie Bray: Yeah. Well, I've never produced with a crowdfund before, so I've learned so much. Oh my gosh. It's really cool. It's it's it's been a really great way to build excitement and an audience early on in a process. I've even gotten text messages from people I haven't talked to in years being like, oh my god, I can't, I've been watching your process online. I'm so intrigued. I can't wait to see what you guys make.

[44:21] Eli Tokash: Oh yeah.

[44:23] Josie Bray: It's so sweet.

[44:24] Eli Tokash: Yeah, it's really sweet.

[44:25] Josie Bray: So yeah, so we're we're in a process of a crowdfunding campaign. Um, and the great thing about crowdfunding is you can donate at any level. So if you have 10 bucks, that's what you want to give, give 10 bucks, my friend. If you have a thousand bucks, we'll take it. You have 5,000 bucks, we'll take it. You have 10,000 bucks, we'll take it. We're good. You have a million, we'll take it. We're good. So um, it's it's just a great way to build excitement, build audience, build engagement because this project really is kind of grassroots to start. And we want people to know about it early, you know, and we're and and as we are creating it, you know, before we open in any sort of larger venue, we're gonna be opening in small venues all around and building audience from the ground.

[45:13] Eli Tokash: So if somebody wants to support us, they could just go to truthplay.org. That's gonna go right to our Seed and Spark page, and you can see how much we've raised so far. You can see what we're using the money to do. Mostly we're paying artists, right? We've really prioritized paying artists and keeping the other expenses low.

[45:33] Josie Bray: Yeah.

[45:34] Eli Tokash: So that the creation of this project, and you know, Eli, artists can get taken advantage of all the time. And that's something I you know, I really care about that as a producer, like not taking advantage of artists. So our budget really reflects paying artists and paying them well.

[45:50] Josie Bray: Yeah. And um, and we're, you know, we're raising this money to create a workshop production next year. So that we can so in in the process of creating the play, we can put it in front of an audience. And this would be, you know, similar to some of those readings you talked about with Trevor. Put it in front of an audience so we can see what's working and what's not working, what needs to go, what needs to come in, you know, whose story needs to come in now. That's that's what this process is about.

[46:21] Eli Tokash: I love it. Um and what a cool experience it could be for anyone listening to, you know, kind of help out in any way that they can so that they can kind of be like, oh, you know, like I've been a part of this journey and I've supported this journey from the beginning. Um, so everyone definitely go check it out if uh this is something that is interested in something that you've always wanted to do of like help out a piece of art or a musical or play or whatever it may be. Um, because you know, all of it goes such a long way.

[46:55] Josie Bray: So yeah, and all of our social media handles are also truthplay.org, by the way. So you can find them there. Follow us, like us on Facebook, do the things, yes, invite your friends, invite your friends, do the thing.

[47:08] Eli Tokash: Oh like the Facebook page, y'all. I I will say that Josie has uh tasked me and a few other associate producers to um run the Facebook page. So any of your support on that would be greatly appreciated.

[47:23] Josie Bray: Uh yes, and Eli doesn't like Facebook, so we're told him to like the platform that the old people use.

[47:30] Eli Tokash: You're welcome.

[47:31] Josie Bray: Exactly. So if you like me and you want me to like Facebook and be on that more, then go like the truth page. Otherwise, I'll just keep saying to Josie, it's not worth it.

[47:43] Eli Tokash: No, I'm just kidding. I would never say that. Um but yeah, no, I I love it all. Just go go like us, go follow us. Literally, like even like if you don't want to donate, that the followers and and and just follow along the journey and the likes and all of that. It honestly, for as much as I hate to say how social media's run our lives lately, it really does help.

[48:04] Josie Bray: Yeah, I mean, literally, if you are willing to just reshare the video on Facebook, that that's a that's a help for us if giving money is not something you can do right now.

[48:14] Eli Tokash: Yes, absolutely. Um so there's lots of ways you can uh help us out and support uh new work and uh also uh support uh communities that stories aren't told uh often because that's really uh kind of the catalyst between this project. So uh we're really excited to have been talking about on Broadway for sure.

[48:38] Josie Bray: Absolutely, absolutely, especially and and you talk, uh I wanted to say this earlier, like you talk about how it's such a male-dominated community, but especially like behind the scenes, like with the producers, with the writing and with everything, um directing even. Um so the fact that the we have three women between you, Silicia and Gail really spearheading this project. And everyone here listening knows Silicia, loves Silicia.

[49:07] Eli Tokash: Um, so um the fact that two women of color, you know?

[49:11] Josie Bray: Yeah, three women and two two black women, right? Like that's the fact that y'all are leading the way is it's truly remarkable and um definitely something that it's hopefully inspires everyone to to follow along and and um share this journey with us.

[49:29] Eli Tokash: Um is there anything else that uh you wanna like shout out or mention or anything?

[49:34] Josie Bray: If not, you know, Josie, you obvious you obviously have so much to take a bow for.

[49:40] Eli Tokash: So uh this is I want to shout out you, Eli Tokash.

[49:44] Josie Bray: Absolutely not. We're not doing this.

[49:45] Eli Tokash: I'm ending this right now.

[49:47] Josie Bray: No, I'm just gonna say that you're you rock.

[49:49] Eli Tokash: I won't I won't I won't go.

[49:52] Josie Bray: Thank you. I know because when we when we had dinner and we talked about like meeting up and doing this, um, you were literally like, and I want to talk about you. And I was like, we're not doing it then.

[50:01] Eli Tokash: No, I threatened to ask you questions, but we won't do that.

[50:05] Josie Bray: Wait, what?

[50:05] Eli Tokash: I totally missed you.

[50:07] Josie Bray: I said I yeah, uh when we had lunch that day, I threatened to ask you questions. We won't do that.

[50:11] Eli Tokash: You can ask me questions, but don't don't boost my ego. I don't need it.

[50:19] Josie Bray: Okay, well, I'm I'm psyched to have you on the team. I'm psyched to be working with you in this way, and it's just really lovely to have known you since you were a youngster, and to see you becoming a grown-up and all the different ways that you're getting involved in this industry, it's fantastic.

[50:37] Eli Tokash: Oh, thanks, Josie. Um, you know, it's fun and uh to have friends like you, it it really wouldn't happen. So um I thank you. Um so yeah, everyone go check out truthplay.org. Go watch Trevor on Disney Plus, do whatever your heart desires and yeah, hopefully this uh like I don't know gave you an inside look into the producing world um inspires you to become a producer hopefully it inspires you to create new work from writing to producing to whatever it may be so um thank you all for listening and Josie thank you so much.