This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Cassandra James: I wanted to advocate for those people who I won't say they're voiceless because they're not, but who've had their voices suppressed for so long. So it was always, I just wanted to be that person, either to speak for them if they weren't able to, or at least give them a pathway.

[0:23] Gennean Scott: Welcome to the Black Business of Broadway, a podcast brought to you by the Broadway League and Black to Broadway. Here we highlight the stories, how-tos, and successes of the Black professionals and legends of Broadway. I'm your host, Gennean Scott. Today I have joining me my friends and my cohorts who I have the privilege of working alongside in this equity, diversity, and inclusion work. The director of social responsibility for the Broadway, London, and National Touring Shows of Wicked, Christina Alexander, and the diversity equity inclusion manager at the Shubert Organization, Cassandra James. Thank you, ladies, for joining me today.

[1:10] Gennean Scott: Looking at where you've been in this field and where it's been and where we're at right now and where we're going. Can you kind of talk to me about what led you to this work, and what do you see in the future for this work? And we only have an hour.

[1:39] Christina Alexander: Well, I'll do the shorter of the longer, and that is I've been in the arts my entire career, whether that was as an educator or as an entertainer or as an advocate, and I've sort of had multiple roles. In fact, as an educator, it was something that was really important to me that I had teachers that were still active in the field, and I recognized that every time I would stop teaching to go back into the field, there was just more work that needed to be done to make it as inclusive a place as we've been saying that it was, or as it was promoted to be for years. Eventually, in one of my stints just as an artist, I was able to work with a group of folks down in South Florida to create the diversity, inclusion, and accessibility council or coalition.

We were just trying to think if we were gonna host the TCG conference down here, what kind of work do we need to do? What would we need to do here? And so that's really what got me involved in doing this diversity, equity, inclusion work, particularly in theater spaces. And that was a decade, maybe 12 years ago or so, that I really just wanted to focus on how can we make the theater a space that really is doing the work that we say already exists here.

[3:08] Cassandra James: All right. So for me, I've always had some level of advocacy that I've been doing, whether it was back in high school or, you know, where I was on the HIV AIDS task force when I was in college and I became a peer educator. I always had some level of advocacy that I needed to be doing. And so in all my jobs, I was always the one that was like, "Well, have we looked at this? Have we done this?" And in my last position, you know, I had diversity added to my job description because I was like, "Well, how about we do this?" And we started doing, you know, diversity book clubs and all these other different things. And it just led me to realize that I wanted to pivot and make that my full-time role.

I wanted to advocate for those people who I won't say they're voiceless because they're not, but who've had their voices suppressed for so long. So it was always, I just wanted to be that person, either to speak for them if they weren't able to, or at least give them a pathway. And I've jumped around in different industries. So I can't, you know, unlike Christina, I can't say this has been my, you know, I've always been in the arts, because you don't want to hear me sing. But this is where I found it was needed and I wanted to be there and be that gap stop.

[4:31] Christina Alexander: Yeah. I love that you say that, Cassandra. Only because I feel like we were doing the same things. I absolutely was involved in advocacy in high school, and I was an AIDS peer educator when I was in high school. And yeah, this is a family. We've been doing this work for a long time. We're not new to this; we're true to this. Right. I was glad that there was a space in theater or that we were making space for it in theater, but I was gonna be doing the work wherever I was. I was a social worker before I was in education. So I absolutely have this—I used to say, I'm really good at yelling at people on other people's behalf. That's what I used to tell people when I was a social worker, but that's what I used to say.

I was like, it makes me sleep better at night to know that I did something to help somebody who needed support. And maybe they didn't even know they needed that support, but I am so to be able to be one of those people. So for me, it's been the work that I've been drawn to forever, and it is really encouraging to be in the theater in this space and have a cohort of folks who have this understanding of we're not new to this; we're true to this.

[5:44] Cassandra James: I love it. You definitely need that support system because, as you know, this work, when you read it, when you are watching things, when you're having conversations with people, it can wear on you. So you're like, you are at the end of the day, we are still human. So the more that we are ingesting, it's like, okay, I need to text Janine real quick and be like, okay, make me laugh, tell me something funny, or you just need to do something because it is hard, it's meaningful work, and you have to be passionate about it because it'll wear you down. But at the end of the day, it is very meaningful.

[6:29] Gennean Scott: So I have a whole script, right? I'm just gonna jump to that question because you all have opened up that door. So I'm gonna go there. We're just gonna go there early. Okay, we're gonna go there early. I mean, this is just like us just having a conversation anyway. So we'll just go there early, all right. The heck with my plans, being a Black woman, all three of us are Black women, and so the majority of us who are in this space here on Broadway are people of color. Not only do we advocate for those marginalized groups, we are those marginalized groups, and we don't get to take that hat off ever. How do you stay fresh? How do you stay inspired? Because you said it, you know, the work is hard, it's tiring, it's daunting.

You have the end—we just came off with Juneteenth. Before that, we just had the mass shooting in Buffalo, where our elders were murdered. Murdered. And then we have two years ago what kind of precipitated all of this and started this mass movement, you know, to the heightening of our positions and where we are now with the murder of George Floyd. And so we have all of that that we live as just Black people. And then we have how we're trying to advocate for all marginalized groups in this industry. How do you stay fresh? How do you stay optimistic?

[8:14] Cassandra James: I was gonna say, you know, I try and dedicate a time when I'm not looking at DEI stuff because I will go down the rabbit hole of Twitter, of Instagram, and just absorb all of this. So I try and dedicate a time where I'm like, you know what? I can't. So I will hang out with my niece. She'll paint my nails. We'll watch, you know, like My Little Pony. I will reach out to my friends, my sorority sisters. Anything that I can do to allow me to stay grounded and to realize that it's hard work, it's daunting. Sometimes it feels as if it's for nothing, but it is for something. It's for these people that I'm interacting with. When we have those conversations, and I'm like, okay, you know what? This is my group; they love me regardless of whether I'm gonna make this do or not.

So this is who I'm doing it for. And they lift me up and we laugh and we joke, and they fill me back up so I can pour back out to people at Schubert. I think that's important because they always say you can't pour from an empty glass, and it's so true. You can work 16-hour days, and you're not gonna fix racism tomorrow. So you might as well work your eight, nine hours, go hang out with your people, and come back and do it again tomorrow. Fight the good fight tomorrow because there's gonna be a tomorrow.

[9:47] Christina Alexander: A few things. One is I learned this in education. I remember I used to go home, and my home would look like my classroom, and there would be papers everywhere because I was grading papers all night long, and not remembering that when you go back to school, the papers can still be there waiting for you. So part of that lesson was understanding boundaries and setting very clear ones about the way that I work. I was brought in, and they remind you from time to time, this isn't a nine-to-five job. And I was like, well, if you say it's 10 to 6, then I'll give you 9:45 to 6:15. But the other hours are if I happen to see the message, I can't be available for it all the time. Because while the industry is still learning, something we all know is that the work we do touches every facet of everything about the industry.

And if we made ourselves in that space all the time, we wouldn't be able to see ourselves. And Cassandra, like what you said, the phrase that I tell everybody is you need to have the people who know what your face looks like. That way, when they see your face and something looks different, you know something needs to happen or something needs to change, or there needs to be some kind of intervention. And if we're on top of it, we're able to catch it. But sometimes we get so into the work that we don't see it ourselves. So I think having those people, whether it's your sorority, whether it's your tribe, when I first got to New York, one of the first things I did was I tried to connect with all of the other people who had been hired in positions similar to mine, and I made it a point of going, I believe in community. One of the things that is that my work is all about is community building, and so I will—I am choosing my community. So I hope you want to be my friend because now we're friends.

[11:52] Christina Alexander: I love what both of you are saying because you both, in addition to all the others—and I'm not gonna start naming names—but you both, in addition to all the others, are truly my community, and so I am grateful, I am happy to do this work alongside of you all, and looking at, you know, if you could explain to our listeners, what is that?

[12:18] Gennean Scott: What is your job?

[12:19] Gennean Scott: What does your job exactly entail?

[12:22] Christina Alexander: Director of Social Responsibility for Wicked.

[12:25] Gennean Scott: So, Christina, you're at a show, which is different than being out of an organization. Can you talk a little bit about how this work is being done on the shows and what challenges and opportunities and what wins you know you see taking place?

[12:41] Christina Alexander: I think what's interesting about being at a show is it's not a new show. So, in a very interesting way. So, a lot of so much of my experience is nonprofit theater or with large organizations and really corporate settings, and so this is kind of neither of those things, right? And one of the challenges that comes along with that is, and it's not new. So it means that we're not able to do foundation setting work in the same way as here's the first day of rehearsal, we've never been in this space together, let's figure out who we are. So we're trying to reset culture in a place that's had an established culture for almost two decades. My work is about culture setting and resetting. I try to offer resources to folks that know some of the things they're looking for, but sometimes, and one of the things that I think COVID made very apparent to everyone is just how sensitive many of us were and didn't know.

And for some people, they're coming back even more sensitive than they were before. So, really trying to help us come back into a space that's about product, not process, right? And saying that what we need is a process for when there's a problem that may impact the product. And how do you do all those things? So, part of my job is that part of my job is trying to help forecast how we can think about things that can be in place so that we're ahead of in a really reactive industry. How can we be more proactive? But also an interesting part about my social responsibilities is helping think about what outreach might look like and thinking about how we can help our platform help the show use more of its platform to be more globally minded.

And some of that already existed. They were already thinking that way when I got here. But maybe how can we be more intentional and always think work smarter, not harder. And the last piece that I'll say is that the other part of that is um I do a bit of human resources. So I'm also the EEO person. So as it relates to complaints and investigations, I used to say I'm the person who just sucks the happiness out of the room. Like when I've just there's there's been an issue. How do we pivot out of this issue? Or before there's an issue, let's think about a great deal of joy I get to spend time with really really amazing humans who love what they do, and I think when it wears on me, because it can, especially because many of us are the only we are departments of our own.

One of the things that I think is really beautiful, it wasn't at a production of Wicked. I've seen Janine, you and I saw Hadestown for the first time together. I've seen since then. I love Hadestown for some reason. And the last time I went, I don't know what came over me, but I got incredibly fired up going, my job is to help these people. I am here for the people telling the story. Look at everybody standing there clapping. I love what we do and what we're just for the for some reason. I got spirit that night. The equity spirit came over. And I was like, this is for you. For all of us. Audience doesn't even know what I do. And I love all of you. Okay. So I just don't know what happened in that moment.

I love it. But that's also part of our self-care, thinking about what do you need to feel like you're being poured back into, and just how important that is. So apparently, in that moment it was going to see Hadestown. It was one of André De Shields' final performances, too. So I was eager to see him do the role one more time. So it all lined up. So that's kind of director of social responsibility work is, but it's also recognizing that this is a position that is a you don't know what you don't know kind of position. So there's definitely a level of here's the things we think the job is going to be. And I just kind of keep calling us back into the room to say, let's look at it now. Are we still doing the things we thought?

Do we need to pivot? How do we need to think about what else this needs? Which is very different also for me because I'm definitely often thinking more organizationally minded than just it's it's very it's a very interesting thing to work production related because there's the work in the office with the folks who make the show happen, or from with the folks who are really in all the day-to-day, and it is a totally different world when you walk in the theater. And you also think my job is also what do these people need? And it's almost like two different worlds, and how do you bridge that? Because what we want is to help them figure out how to communicate, how to really do the work together without needing a translator, or without needing and and and I think some of the wins are when we see more of that happening.

One of the things that we're doing at Wicked that I'm super proud of is now we do exit interviews, which makes me very, very pleased because we've had last year we lost our last original company member from the very first performance, you know, she was there for 18 years. Wow. So we've got people who've been in the building for a really long time, and it has just been invaluable to hear their experiences and to create a space where folks feel safe enough to say the things. And I think it's helping us sort of grow and develop our listening ability, which I think is massive in a place that's so product-minded often.

[18:27] Gennean Scott: Yeah, yeah. And so the Shubert Organization, what does that look like there? What is that looking like?

[18:34] Cassandra James: My position is a new position, which it's good and bad, because you know, like, all right, I can make it my own, I can do, but it's also that I don't have any guidelines to say this is how we used to do it. So I was like, all right, I got my job description, but I also have things that I would like to see. So one of the things that I knock on wood seems to be in the works is starting ERGs or employee resource groups for staff. So we have that, you know, starting. Acknowledgments of different holidays and observances. You know, I send out emails like, hey, June is Pride Month. Here are some of the shows that we've done. Here are some of this, you know, it's holy, it's the Lunar New Year. So it's just acknowledgment of different holidays, so people can go, oh wow, I feel seen.

I didn't even know that they would recognize that holiday of mine. You know, here this is Eid. This is what Eid is, this is Ramadan. So all these different holidays that represent under-marginalized communities are getting some light. So we're doing that, sending those out to bring acknowledgment. I recently revamped the supervisor training. So now it has more of a DEI focus to it. So you know, I talk about, hey, we're gonna look at different places to post your position, not the same ones. When you're interviewing, here are some of the biases that can crop up when you're when you're interviewing. What's the halo bias? What's the affinity bias? Here's how we're gonna defeat that. You know, Christina, you talked about being able to speak freely.

In the training, I talk about here's how you create a psychologically safe team so your staff can feel like they can come to you. So your staff can feel, you know what, I'm gonna bring my authentic self to work, and um, no one's gonna question it. No one's gonna say this. So you so those are some of the things that we're starting to implement. So yeah.

[20:33] Gennean Scott: Awesome. Oh my gosh. The psychological safety thing, huge, huge.

[20:40] Cassandra James: And I think people don't they they don't even begin to understand, you know, I call unconscious bias and anti-racism training necessary, but I think they're I think they're the kindergarten, maybe first grade on this whole continuum that we have. You know, it's the intro, it's the introduction. We have to build on that and build on that and build on that because it it it's it's a journey.

[21:05] Christina Alexander: It is, and and I tell I tell people like diversity training, it's like showering. You don't shower one time and go, I'm done. You shower every day, so you constantly have to immerse yourself. You should hope you constantly have to immerse yourself in these trainings. You have to keep yourself up. It's not a it's not a destination. You don't arrive and go, I got my certificate, I'm diverse. You know, you gotta keep going because the world is growing, people are becoming more diverse. People are claiming their identities.

[21:41] Cassandra James: Yes.

[21:42] Christina Alexander: So we have to learn more, we have to interact more. So it's a con and I think that's the thing that I really love about diversity is that it's a constant education. It's a constant, it's never gonna get stale because someone is always gonna say, Well, I identify this way, or like, great, I need to learn about that now. Let me educate myself on that, right? Instead of being like, I don't understand that, and so it's not real, and being dismissive because because oh I listened to this podcast, and one of the pod the guests said, You don't have to understand me to be compassionate towards me.

[22:22] Cassandra James: Oh it's about humanity, yes, and I was like, wow, I'm like, yeah, you don't have to understand who this person is or how they love or how to identify to understand that they're a human, and I think that's what we're trying to bring to our different organizations. That your colleague, regardless of who they love, how they love, how they identify, is a person worthy of respect just because they are a person.

[22:50] Gennean Scott: Yes, so so ladies, what what are some of the most critical changes you think need to take place for this industry?

[23:04] Cassandra James: I think honestly, a mindset shift. I remember when I first started telling my friends that I was working, I was gonna be working on Broadway. They were just like, oh my god, it's it's so liberal, you're gonna love it. And I'm like, I think you think like so. I think this this perception that people have of themselves because they work on Broadway that, oh well, I'm so liberal, I'm like, I'm I'm so I they're not talking about me when they talk about those people. So really understanding yourself in order to be able to take in what we're trying to do. I think it's critical for people to do some self-evaluation and not be scared of what you find, because it's very hard to teach someone who thinks they know everything.

[23:51] Christina Alexander: Come on now, come on now.

[23:53] Cassandra James: Is that the sermon?

[23:55] Christina Alexander: That's it. That's the one. Part of my approach to the work is exactly that, Cassandra and Janine. Um, one of the ways that I try to invite people, right? I keep trying to use the phrase call again. I'll keep trying to call us into the room instead of calling out who doesn't need to be there. Let's call everybody into this, because we all need to be in the conversation, no matter where our access point is. And so some of the ways that that I find brings us to the table just a little bit better is to create a process that everybody's able to see themselves first. Because we've got these grand ideas of what we want to change and what we can see the shift being, and you know, we can see what 10 years could look like if this thing was happening, right?

[24:38] Christina Alexander: However, we don't get there if folks don't actually see themselves firmly and understand why it is that they also belong to be in the conversation, if that makes sense. And so that becomes challenging in a space with folks who are used to being heard, being centered. It's a really delicate game also because I'm gonna bring it back to this is not the nonprofit theater. So thinking about how oversight works and thinking about sort of all of the things that are a part of how this industry moves means there is really a finesse associated with it. It's show business, it's business, that's it. How do you call people in in a way that they want to remain there instead of, "I just wanted my certificate," because that's it?

It's way easier for folks to have the credential, "I did the thing, I know what that thing is." So how do I invite you into saying this is something we need to continue to do indefinitely? How do I invite you into that conversation in a way that makes you feel like it's somewhere you want to be, not because of guilt, but because you recognize that it is the way to be the best humans we can be? Sometimes, you know, as selfish as it is, you have to show them what's in it for them. You have to appeal to that selfish side, unfortunately, because you have to say, "Well, it's good for humanity."

[26:16] Christina Alexander: Okay, and but if you say it's good for you because X, Y, and Z, that's the hook. And then, fortunate, you gotta get that self. But if it works, it works. Let me tell you what's in it for you and how you can benefit from DEI, how you can benefit from this. Your employees, if they feel like you are viewing them as their full selves, will stay. You will have longevity, you will have this. You gotta bring them in some kind of which way.

[26:59] Cassandra James: Love it. You know, love it. I want to talk about those folks who are marginalized who feel like they don't need this type of training because they already know. Or they are woke and they're already diverse. How do you address that?

[27:27] Christina Alexander: You can be marginalized in one area of your life, and you can still be in a power-up beneficial arena in another and oppress someone in a different way. So even if you are a marginalized person, you have the capability. I am a Black woman, I'm marginalized because I'm Black and I'm a woman. However, I'm able-bodied, so I could oppress someone who's not, so I identify myself.

[27:57] Cassandra James: Right, exactly.

[27:58] Christina Alexander: So part of that is recognizing, and I used to love being able to offer folks the privilege wheel exercise. Because again, it's about calling in, right? It's about us going, what we keep failing to do is remembering that it's more than about what we look like, right?

[28:17] Cassandra James: Yes.

[28:19] Christina Alexander: That's not the whole picture here. And sometimes that's where folks get stuck. "I don't need to do that training. I don't need to be in this conversation. Why do I, what are you talking about? I'm Black. I know what's going on." Every day, let's be clear. You think I need to talk about this every day because I just know everything? Oh no, I'm still learning also. And the hard one is when I'm learning about myself. And it's not uncomfortable, but that's where the learning is happening.

[28:49] Cassandra James: That's it, right? Get comfortable with discomfort.

[28:56] Christina Alexander: Most, and I think a lot of people conflate that uncomfortable feeling with safety. So it's like, "I'm uncomfortable. That means I'm unsafe." No, it means you're learning something new. Buckle up, because it's about to get real bumpy for you. So they're like, "Well, this is not safe. I don't think you're good." You're learning something.

[29:19] Cassandra James: You're gonna be, I baby. You know, our challenge is that as folks who have often identified as marginalized, there's also the connection that we're also folks who generally are not the ones with power. So instantly we put those in the same conversation. "I'm not safe, I'm not the person with power, I'm not whatever else it is. So why would I want to be in that room?" And actually, you are safe, you're uncomfortable. This conversation isn't about who has power. I mean, you know, there are just so many ways that conversation can go, but because we generally connect safety and power and being emotional, instantly we don't need to be there.

[30:06] Christina Alexander: That's not the conversation for me. And I want to send around a survey that says, "So which is the conversation for you exactly? How does that one work?" Because if you're in the conversation that just offers you the platitudes over and over, that's not the one where you grow either.

[30:23] Cassandra James: Exactly.

[30:24] Christina Alexander: Exactly. So can you both, or either one of you, speak to the work that you all are doing in the community, out in the community to bring the community into our theaters, into our shows? I know that Schubert has the artistic circle, and they're working with producers who are BIPOC producers, allowing their shows to be seen.

[30:53] Cassandra James: So we are in the community helping, you know, give people a leg up who might not have had that opportunity, you know, five, ten years ago. We're working with BIPOC producers to do that.

[31:06] Christina Alexander: Yeah, that's wonderful because we need more producers of color so that we can get more works that reflect the world in which we live.

[31:19] Cassandra James: Yes.

[31:22] Christina Alexander: Can you talk about some of the outreach activities that Wicked has done?

[31:28] Cassandra James: Certainly. Some of the things that are really interesting that Wicked has sort of launched into. First of all, Wicked has what they call their "For Good" partners, and so they've identified national partners that they are using their platform to amplify their works, like the Equal Justice Initiative. And gosh, EJI, if you haven't checked them out, it's just wow, the work they do. And that calendar just blew my mind.

[31:54] Christina Alexander: But also the Trevor Project. We've got several partners, V Day, so we're absolutely connected sort of nationally. We also had a, and I love that you mentioned it earlier, Cassandra, because it's one of the things that I have been pushing and encouraging. I've been trying to use the less corporate term ERG and been calling them affinity groups. But I also put it in parentheses, employee resource group, just in case you're not going to be able to do that. We know what it is.

[32:23] Cassandra James: Exactly.

[32:25] Christina Alexander: So one of the employee resource groups that was really, it came together during the shutdown was there's a group now called Change for Good that exists within Wicked, and they are really kind of a social justice leg of it. It was just a group of company members who felt like there was more that they could be doing. They could be using their Wicked platform to amplify even more. And it was exciting to see that kind of fervor coming out of the company, that it didn't have to feel like Wicked was going, "Hey, don't you want to be more active?" But that it was company members saying, "Let's do this work."

[33:02] Cassandra James: And it always ebbs and flows, but it's exciting to know that there is that interest and that as we really sort of get our footing back underneath us from remounting, that the work that I'm doing is trying to help us reinforce those initiatives. So looking at how we can use our "For Good" partnerships to maybe work in more local spaces, identifying local organizations or creating more opportunities for us to do that work. So that's where we are.

[33:31] Christina Alexander: But I love that that existed long before I got there, those partnerships and the ways Wicked has been working. The Broadway Green Alliance. So they already work with those organizations. Looking at how can we, and I love that there's so much "For Good" in the title of Wicked or in the language of Wicked in the sort of Wicked Speak, and there is a real passion for how can we do that with fidelity and more consistently? And when I'm able to be in those conversations, I'm excited again for all the other conversations we have as a part of the work, but really excited to see that there's still such an interest to move that kind of work forward.

[34:11] Gennean Scott: Well, ladies, I thank you. I thank you not just for being on the podcast today, but I thank you for being my sister in arms in this work. Whenever I'm at my lowest, or I text, "WTF," it's like sister friends unite. They're like, "All right." It's like the Avengers, the symbol.

[34:46] Cassandra James: Exactly.

[34:48] Gennean Scott: Diversity Warriors. Yes. So we try to leave one piece of advice because this show, this podcast, is for individuals who are looking for careers in Broadway. And this is indeed a career in Broadway. What would you? What advice would you give future Black leaders of Broadway? One piece of advice that you could give them.

[35:16] Christina Alexander: Remember your face. Remember what you look like. But don't center it so much that you forget what everyone else's faces look like also.

[35:32] Cassandra James: I like that.

[35:33] Christina Alexander: And I would say create and maintain boundaries. I know for me, I have a tendency to want to say yes to everyone because I want everyone to get what they need. So I'm like, "I can do that. I could do that." And then I'm working late and doing this, and I'm stressed. So I would say maintain your boundaries. Say no to maintain your yes.

[36:01] Cassandra James: I love that.

[36:02] Christina Alexander: I learned that from one of my VEI mentors. She said, "If I say yes to everything, it's not gonna work. So I have to say no to you so I can acknowledge the yeses that I've already said."

[36:12] Cassandra James: I like that.

[36:13] Christina Alexander: I was like, "I'm gonna hold on to that one."

[36:16] Gennean Scott: I know, me too. I'm sticking it in the back. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you again for joining us today. I want to thank our guests and you, our listeners. You could have been doing anything else, but you chose to spend your time with me, and I am grateful. Be sure to subscribe at BPN.fm slash bvb so you'll never miss an episode. While you're at it, tell a friend. I'm your host, Gennean Scott, and we at the Broadway League hope you enjoyed this episode of The Black Business of Broadway.