This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Tammie Ward: It is all collaboration. You hear this all the time. Theater's all about collaboration. Right? You have to know. Even if you don't know how to design lights, you should know about it. Right. You should know what the designer is doing. You should know what the wardrobe supervisor is doing. You should know about the company management and general management teams. So I have tried to take a bit of everything that I've been exposed to or touched, um, and I have learned that that is added value.

[0:42] Gennean Scott: Welcome to the Black Business of Broadway, a podcast brought to you by the Broadway League and Black to Broadway. Here we highlight the stories, how-tos, and successes of the Black professionals and legends of Broadway. I'm your host, Gennean Scott.

[1:07] Gennean Scott: Today's guest is Tammie Ward, a theater operations director for the Shubert Organization with over 30 years of experience in arts administration and management. Prior to joining the Shubert Organization, she held senior management positions at Dallas Children's Theater, the Kennedy Center, and the Long Center in Austin. Among Tammie's touring and Broadway management team credits are Spider-Man: Turn Off the Dark, Priscilla: Queen of the Desert, Bring It On: The Musical, and Beautiful: The Carol King Musical. In addition to her membership in the Association of Theatrical Press Agents and Managers, Tammie serves on the Broadway League's Board of Governors and as co-chair of the EDI Committee for the League. She's also a founding member of the Shubert Organization's Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Committee for Institutional Advancement. Welcome, Tammie.

[2:01] Tammie Ward: Hello.

[2:02] Tammie Ward: Hello. I am so glad to be sitting and chatting with you.

[2:06] Gennean Scott: You know, I always love chatting with you, Tammie.

[2:08] Tammie Ward: Oh, thank you.

[2:10] Gennean Scott: I love it too. I love it too. So, Tammie, we're gonna go back. We usually like to ask our guests to kind of reflect on what their first Broadway show was or what inspired them to take on this career in the arts. So what inspired you?

[2:31] Tammie Ward: Listen, my very first Broadway show, I had already been acting in college and such. And my first Broadway show was a touring production of Lena Horne's A Lady and Her Music at Dallas Summer Musicals, which is a giant, giant, if you know the music hall at Fair Park. It's about 4,000 seats or something. And a friend of mine, um, her dad was one of the producers there for Dallas Summer Musicals at the time, and he got me center orchestra just a few rows back. I was so close, she could spit on me. And I was mesmerized by her grace, her beauty, not to mention, of course, all the talent and the dancing and the costume changes, and the fact that she just held the audience right in the palm of her hands.

And I thought, I wanna be like that. I want to be, she looks like me. I want to be an actor like that. That's what I want to do. And listen, I tried. I tried in my acting career. I wanted to be Lena Horne. I wanted to have that kind of class, but I later figured out my skill set lay elsewhere in the stage. But that was such a momentous, like it's a huge memory for me. I think I watched several numbers with my mouth just hanging open. It was beautiful.

[4:04] Gennean Scott: Wow, well you do have class like that. So you may not be on stage, but you certainly have class, let me tell you.

[4:12] Tammie Ward: Thank you.

[4:14] Tammie Ward: So that was kind of what started this love of the arts, right?

[4:18] Tammie Ward: Exactly, exactly. I mean, I did okay, I'm gonna go back and admit that in fourth grade I was in Oliver. I was one of the orphan kids in Oliver. Can you imagine? I mean, it's like all little Black school, little Black kids playing Oliver, and we had really passionate music teachers right in fourth grade. So we did little parts of that, and I fell in love with, you know, people applauding and liking me being on stage, and that was sort of where the bug was, if you will.

[4:49] Gennean Scott: Right.

[4:50] Tammie Ward: And then, of course, I did some acting in college and got my equity card, etc., etc. So, but there's some more information I'm sure we'll get to.

[4:50] Gennean Scott: Yeah, well, but you studied theater arts administration at St. Edward's University.

[5:06] Tammie Ward: Well, right, I did. That's where I got my degree. So a strange backstory is because I was acting and I was doing pretty well as an actor in my young twenties. Did some industrial productions, a couple of commercials, and I thought I am doing just fine. But I'd gone to University of North Texas specifically for acting. But then I was curious about when I was in a show at Theater Three in one of the first regional productions of Little Shop of Horrors. It extended. We did a small tour. We were doing the tour. I was very curious about how that was put together. It's like, well, who's, how are the costumes getting to all these cities and like who's setting up, where are we gonna sleep, etc., etc. So I was really interested in that aspect, got me curious, and that is sort of what started to turn my head toward administration and arts management.

[6:14] Tammie Ward: Um, so it was around that time that I met some folks at Dallas Children's Theater. They had a small educational program that they were touring around Dallas. And listen, I got to use my skill set, logistics and people management and so forth, and helped build a national touring program with Dallas Children's Theater. We went from touring from library to library with small educational programs to a nationally recognized touring company. And I think they're still one of the most recognized and well-known children's theater companies.

[7:01] Gennean Scott: Wow. Look at you.

[7:02] Tammie Ward: Yeah.

[7:03] Tammie Ward: Trailblazing.

[7:04] Tammie Ward: Trailblazing.

[7:06] Tammie Ward: It was a good time.

[7:08] Gennean Scott: That's interesting because, you know, the whole reason, you know, this podcast kind of got started was, well, one of the reasons this podcast got started was because I felt like as a former performer, as a dancer, I used to be a dancer, I felt like those of us on stage don't always know the business side.

[7:31] Tammie Ward: Exactly.

[7:32] Gennean Scott: And some of the business folk don't necessarily know the stage. And I thought this was a wonderful way to kind of marry the two.

[7:44] Tammie Ward: That's exactly, that's really how I've been able to move through this career is that I've been on all sides of the contract. You know, I did some touring with some national touring companies and part of the company management team. Then I was in general management. I was associate general management for a major tour, well, the Carol King musical, Beautiful: The Carol King Musical. And so I've been on all sides of the contract, if you will. I mean, I was the actor. I have been, with my work at the Kennedy Center and the Long Center, I was also a presenter. I did a stint doing some tour booking administration, and so I was creating contracts and drafting contracts and negotiating with road presenters. And you know, so having that, like, all sides of it, I know and have been exposed to so much more than if I had just said I wanted to be an actor.

[8:54] Gennean Scott: Right, right. So you've hit like so many different positions and you've been in many management capacities. What's kind of, what's the one lesson that you've taken away with you as you've navigated this career?

[9:09] Tammie Ward: Ooh, it is all collaborative. You hear this all the time. Theater's all about collaboration. Right, right. You have to know, even if you don't know how to design lights, you should know about it. Right. You should know what the designer is doing. You should know what the wardrobe supervisor is doing. You should know about the company management and general management teams. So I have tried to take a bit of everything that I've been exposed to or touched, um, and I have learned that that is added value. Also, while you're meeting people and you can connect to them on the level, if you know a little bit about what they're doing and their job and what their responsibility is to this piece, getting to know those people and talking to them with that in mind, I think helps provide value to what you're doing, what they're doing, and the piece overall.

It is very, very important to know what everything, who everybody is, what everybody's doing, you know, not in depth, but certainly to a level where you can understand how all the pieces fit in the pie.

[10:31] Gennean Scott: Right. Exactly. So can you break down what a theater operations director is? You know, a day in the life of Tammie.

[10:40] Tammie Ward: Well, listen, no two days are the same. I have to tell you that. I mean, um, the Shubert Organization owns 17 Broadway houses. We own six off-Broadway, and certainly the Forrest in Philadelphia. But we essentially, what theater operations does is we're sort of, we serve two guests in our theaters, the actual producers who are our clients, and the patrons who come to see our show. And our job is to make sure that both are well taken care of, if you will, both get their money's worth, and both have a great experience. So we administer the day-to-day functions related to integrating them into our houses. We coordinate information between the show and Schubert ticketing, um, any of the facilities when they're loading in.

Um, we deal with patron issues. A big thing right now is a couple of our shows have some sightline issues that were surprised to everyone. And so we're dealing with the shows and working out how patrons can either feel more comfortable or how, what they're, helping make their experience better. So that's been kind of a challenge today. Also, this morning, the mayor gave the key to the city to Lord Andrew Lloyd Webber, and theater operations had to just assist with security and all their teams, and that they have everything they needed to make sure that that event went off without a hitch.

[12:20] Tammie Ward: Um we work with, you know, there's 17 Broadway unions.

[12:25] Tammie Ward: Uh our department manages uh at PAM, which is the association of Theatrical Press Agents and Managers, Local 306, which is the US, uh, local 751, which is the treasurer's box office staff, and uh local one, the stage hands.

[12:42] Tammie Ward: So uh a typical day, I mean, it could be reviewing customer service standards with the front of house staff, or um looking at notifying everyone of a a show has been canceled.

[12:58] Tammie Ward: We have to get that information to out to all of our, not just our operational teams, but to the patrons themselves, right?

[13:07] Tammie Ward: Um we any pro um pre-show activities that are happening, we have to approve those.

[13:14] Tammie Ward: Like uh a few years ago, a Christmas Carol uh at the Lyceum had they they threw oranges around in the pre-show activities and and they did lots of different fun things if you saw the show, and we had to work with them.

[13:29] Tammie Ward: It's like you can't really toss this high.

[13:33] Tammie Ward: This is it, because you're gonna hit somebody in the head.

[13:35] Tammie Ward: You know, it's just working with your show to make sure all of the elements that the producer wants to happen happens the way uh they want, uh in a safe way, and then also protecting um and providing safety and comfort to our patrons that come to the theater.

[13:52] Tammie Ward: So it's a variety of things.

[13:55] Tammie Ward: Wow.

[13:56] Tammie Ward: A variety of things.

[13:59] Gennean Scott: Can you talk about as a theater operations director at Schubert, but just in general, the senior management positions that you've held, what has that been like, especially being a woman of color in the theater industry at a time where we're talking about diversity, equity, and inclusion, and really making theater more accessible?

[14:27] Gennean Scott: You talk about serving two patrons.

[14:29] Gennean Scott: So looking at the producer side, but also looking at the the patron side of those who are coming in, how has how has it been navigating, you know, this world as a woman of color as a black woman?

[14:45] Tammie Ward: I tell you it the first word that comes to mind has been rocky.

[14:52] Tammie Ward: It has been a rocky journey.

[14:54] Tammie Ward: As like you, probably and many other women of color in this industry, we're often the only ones in the room.

[15:02] Tammie Ward: Yes.

[15:02] Tammie Ward: Right.

[15:03] Tammie Ward: And for a long, long time, we didn't know how to connect with with others to sort of talk about other others of us to talk about issues and to work through problems and just to have someone else who knows what your struggle is.

[15:24] Tammie Ward: That there was a I'm just want to give you an example.

[15:32] Tammie Ward: Um where there had been a kind of complicated exchange with the presenter over email.

[15:43] Tammie Ward: Got into the theater, um, this presenter came downstairs, you know, because usually our bait our offices are in the basements of the theaters, right?

[15:52] Tammie Ward: Yes, came downstairs and immediately looked in and said, When the company manager comes back, would you please let them know I need to talk with them?

[16:04] Tammie Ward: Without introducing themselves, really, without asking me if I was the company manager, they assumed I was not the company manager, right?

[16:16] Tammie Ward: Mind you, I'm the only one in the room, it's an office, one table, one desk.

[16:22] Tammie Ward: Had I been able to connect with other women of color on the road, you know, just to talk about how that felt, um, boy, that would have been you know, yes.

[16:35] Tammie Ward: It it it's it and another another instance I just want to share, because it's you know, it's been good, it's been rocky.

[16:43] Tammie Ward: Um there when I was working on contracts for touring shows, um, at one of the Spring Road conferences, someone I had had phone conversations with and email exchanges, happy, pleasant, very nice presenter.

[17:01] Tammie Ward: Um they came up to a group of us standing and talking, and my boss at the time was standing there, and she introduced me.

[17:11] Tammie Ward: This is Tammy.

[17:13] Tammie Ward: Wanted you to meet her, and there was a beep beep beat.

[17:18] Tammie Ward: Oh, you never I would never have guessed you were black.

[17:23] Tammie Ward: Oh, Tammy, no, don't say it.

[17:26] Tammie Ward: My goodness, so nice to meet.

[17:28] Tammie Ward: Oh my goodness, I had no idea.

[17:31] Tammie Ward: Oh, it is so nice to meet you.

[17:33] Tammie Ward: She went on like that.

[17:36] Tammie Ward: And I let her go on like that because I didn't want to say what I really wanted to say.

[17:42] Tammie Ward: And had I had an outlet, had I known how to reach to others of us to say, how do I, you know, how do I get out of this?

[17:52] Tammie Ward: Because I'm gonna see them for the next two days at the Spring Road Conference.

[17:55] Tammie Ward: So what am I gonna do?

[17:56] Tammie Ward: How am I gonna respond?

[17:59] Tammie Ward: But um since the racial um the racial reckoning after George Floyd, I made a conscious effort to try and reach out.

[18:10] Tammie Ward: Now that we were coming out of the woodwork, right?

[18:12] Tammie Ward: It's like I'm here too.

[18:14] Tammie Ward: I've always been the only one in the room.

[18:16] Tammie Ward: I I you know, right?

[18:17] Tammie Ward: How did I know I did not have access to you?

[18:20] Tammie Ward: You know, because we all work in silos in certain instances, and we're always the only one.

[18:25] Tammie Ward: But now that we've been able to see each other as it were, I've been able to form my own little group.

[18:36] Tammie Ward: Actually, it has a nickname, it's core four plus one.

[18:39] Tammie Ward: Um shout out to core four plus one of people who are in the industry that I know and trust, and we can all talk about all things, um social, also business.

[18:52] Tammie Ward: Right, and to to talk about what it like what it is, what is it like being in the room?

[18:59] Tammie Ward: How do we take off our masks and be our real selves without some of the the trauma that comes with that, without the craziness that comes with that?

[19:12] Tammie Ward: So um that that's sort of been I'm I'm at a place now, I think now having spent time in the league and people seeing me.

[19:21] Tammie Ward: The other, you know, the big question sometimes is where were you before?

[19:26] Tammie Ward: They want to know, like, did you just pop up on the scene or how did you get here, right?

[19:31] Tammie Ward: And then I I am happily ready to spill my entire resume.

[19:36] Tammie Ward: So they you know go, oh okay yeah you belong.

[19:40] Tammie Ward: But the thing is though and this is my biggest issue is I don't hear I don't hear a lot of other people having to justify.

[19:51] Tammie Ward: Exactly exactly and that it it just it I hurts.

[19:58] Tammie Ward: And I don't think that people realize how hurtful that one thing is.

[20:05] Tammie Ward: Mm-hmm.

[20:06] Tammie Ward: It it and that's you know you want to be an ally it's all the things what people say is true you have to learn how to be a better ally.

[20:14] Tammie Ward: You don't say that I know you want to get to know me but that's not the question to ask well where were you before this?

[20:21] Tammie Ward: No ask me how am I enjoying my my time at Shubert.

[20:26] Tammie Ward: Get to know me as a person.

[20:28] Tammie Ward: Right and know that I'm not in this position by accident or by or because of the color of your skin.

[20:34] Tammie Ward: Or because of color of my skin.

[20:36] Tammie Ward: I mean I love the fact that um when I was hired they said the the color of your skin was a bonus.

[20:46] Tammie Ward: Yeah.

[20:47] Tammie Ward: I was very I was like okay Schubert, okay theater VP of theater operations weren't true okay.

[20:54] Tammie Ward: I appreciate that.

[20:55] Tammie Ward: It was just a it was a bonus.

[20:57] Tammie Ward: But they said they were looking for someone with my skill set where I had done all the work in the different areas of the theater and I touched the contract in different areas of the theater and I could speak uh with a producer's mind can speak with um the the creative side et cetera so um I I hope that we're all coming around but uh clearly there's more work to do and I'm finding ways to finding others of us to bring into my circle and to reach out to and you know I'm always trying to find ways to put a whole bunch of black women in a room together in this business because you know there are those clubs out there those organizations that are out there women of color I believe but I think they're geared toward actors they're geared toward the creative teams playwrights and directors but what about the business us business folks um doing the behind the scenes groundwork you don't see us you don't see anybody in theater operations um so anyway it's so it's so rare and and that's so spot on it's it's so rare or we get together and it's it's a group of everybody who is of color you know that that are in this industry whereas the experiences are some of them are very similar but they're also very different in the day to day in the day to day work side of things it it's it's very different.

[22:27] Tammie Ward: You know um not that we have w we've made strides on the stage I'll say.

[22:34] Tammie Ward: Yes I absolutely but it's the offices that where we are it's the offices and where we're where we're far behind because it's hidden right exactly.

[22:45] Tammie Ward: People don't people don't know because and you know I heard I heard someone say once um well, no one sees them anyway.

[23:00] Tammie Ward: Don't make me laugh.

[23:01] Tammie Ward: Don't make me say stuff out loud on this podcast.

[23:04] Tammie Ward: No, I mean, no, no, no.

[23:06] Tammie Ward: And but it it it was said before, and I mean, you know, and this not in this space, but it was said before.

[23:15] Tammie Ward: And it it just I I gas.

[23:19] Tammie Ward: I'm just like Yeah, yeah.

[23:22] Tammie Ward: Wow.

[23:22] Tammie Ward: What?

[23:23] Tammie Ward: Yeah.

[23:23] Tammie Ward: Yeah.

[23:24] Tammie Ward: What?

[23:25] Tammie Ward: Like that's that's that's that's what you want to say.

[23:30] Tammie Ward: You know.

[23:31] Tammie Ward: Again, our allies need to really, really keep digging.

[23:37] Tammie Ward: Yeah.

[23:37] Tammie Ward: You've done the thing.

[23:38] Tammie Ward: I think producers, as you said, producers have have we've made inroads into making sure the lives of the actors and creative teams um are valued and their time and their art is valued.

[23:52] Tammie Ward: Uh and they are seen.

[23:55] Tammie Ward: But the the business folks are still churning it out.

[23:59] Tammie Ward: You know, we're still showing up and we're still moving in these in these spaces where we're working with the people who have the power, the people who have who own the room, if you will.

[24:13] Tammie Ward: And I've been fortunate to get to go into some of those rooms, and I continue to try to make a way to make sure I keep uh keep a seat at the table when I can, and to then use my voice and use my experience um in sharing freely, openly, truly what it is that we need and and being the being the other voice in the room.

[24:43] Tammie Ward: And I appreciate you being their voice in the room. I do. I feel like sometimes, you know, like Seymour in *Little Shop of Horrors*, where at the very end, he's like, "Oh, I'll hack you to bits from the inside." You know, that's kind of how I look at it. It's like I'm infiltrating and I'm gonna be part of this, but I'm gonna, you know, I'm still gonna be working on these things that are wrong from the inside. Exactly. Inside out.

[25:11] Gennean Scott: So can you talk about your role as the founding member of the Shubert Organization's Diversity, Equity, Inclusion Committee for Institutional Advancement? I know it's a long title, long chunky, chunky title.

[25:23] Tammie Ward: At the time we were trying to be very, very like, we want to make this have some heft and some importance and um it's now the committee, right? It's the oversight, DEI Oversight Committee. But it certainly came around the time of the where everyone else was struggling and things were being brought to light, just how exclusive the Broadway industry and theater industry across the country has been. Um I can't remember if it was Julio Peterson, who's VP of Real Estate for Schubert, or Bob Wenkel, um, chairman and president, who asked me to a meeting first, a Zoom meeting, to just talk about where we as people of color feel Schubert is. Now, imagine it's a hundred and twenty something year old um organization. Right. It's always been run by men, um, white men. Um so sitting down at a table with them um to discuss where we are was a little overwhelming right at the beginning.

[26:33] Tammie Ward: It was it was and you know the question was well what is it that people of color want at Schubert? What is it that what can we do? What what is it that we need to fix? Well it's a lot of stuff. And you know we laid out some practical things right away that we felt could we we are the elephant in the room. We have so many resources we need to open our doors, open our funds, um our resources and make them available. So we came up with several committees that we thought would make an impact immediately while we worked on a strategic goal for the company at large. And one of those was the artistic circle which is to we um invite uh young producers of color into our fold if you will and offer them assistance and guidance and resources and funds.

We did an advocacy series uh you know facts everyone's still at home and watching that stuff. Um we created an internship program that is about to enter into its second year for students of color who are looking for non-performance careers um in theater.

[27:51] Tammie Ward: So it was a stru you know we did a survey we had a consultant come in I gotta tell you some of those early conversations were very awkward. You know, I respect um uh Bob Wenkel so very much. Uh I'm so glad that we get, you know, I get to work with he and Elliot and Charlie and Mark Schweppe um on some of the things that we can fix within Schubert and I've been fortunate to have that voice within the organization. And but we're we're making strides. We're coming along. We've done some outward work, certainly the James Earl Jones theater naming was a big big piece. And and things that are not seen behind that you know we offer assistance financial assistance or rehearsal space or a number of things. So but but now our goal is really to focus on our staff and how to turn that sort of eye into making um how we involve our staff in sort of changing the culture here at Schubert.

[29:00] Gennean Scott: Right. So you mentioned the artistic circle and the advocacy series program. Are those both still going on like are people able to get involved the actually the artistic circle just announced its second cohort some very very talented folks you can find them on uh schubert.nyc in that program um again offering young producers the space the networking the funds the um access is always big right uh so we're very proud of that one the Schubert Advocacy series is on a hiatus we met with so many great organizations that were starting out we wanted to help spread the word so again we provided resources where uh we had a digital studio and we gave them a platform for that so there are a number of of great great um video conversations on our website as part of a Schubert advocacy series and is there a place where if some because you talked about uh some of the jobs that aren't on stage that the programs you have is there a place where people can apply or well the internship is every summer and we've just finished um well we're about to start selecting we just finished the application process but I would encourage students it's really geared for graduating high school seniors and freshmen in college incoming freshmen because it's right at that time if I had known if I had known really that I could use my skill set in a career and still stay in the theater I think I might have saved 10 years of my uh of my career.

[30:52] Tammie Ward: Me too you know right had I known then what I know now right so that's that sweet spot where we think that students are still trying to find where they fit in the world of theater right and by the time you get to college you you haven't maybe you've declared that theater's gonna be your major but you're not quite sure where you're gonna go that's what our internship is for and we give them access to all the departments here at Schubert but also give them access to people in the industry. Uh so we're we're extremely extremely excited to get our second uh second year up and going in June.

[31:35] Gennean Scott: Yes, I 100% agree. I say it all the time. If I'd have known right that this was a career, right?

[31:45] Tammie Ward: I would have I would have run to it. Listen, I there's something few people only sort of like my close friends know that uh we had a I have a set of quadruplets uh as as siblings. So there were six of us, myself, a younger brother, yes, myself, a younger brother in between, and then the four of them. That's we had there were six kids in the family. And I they were born when I was ten. So we thought we were just having one, and then the doctor later on, you know, it was you know, sonograms and that kind of stuff were not advanced. But there was one, then he said, Oh, it's definitely twins, and then as she got further along, it was like, oh, it might be three. Well, guess what? It was four anyway. So our family doubled from four to eight overnight.

[32:39] Tammie Ward: Oh wow and so needless to say it was all hands on deck, right? So all it's like the diaper schedule, the bottle schedule. We you know, we had some people to come in, we had uh nurses that would come in the 24 hours early on, and then it cut back to daytime. But you know what? I learned time management, I learned logistics, event planning anytime we had to go anywhere. I gotta tell you, I always say that I learned my skills at home. I learned they were the basis from my people's skills. You know, no joke. I mean, as they grew older, I mean, there was uh anyway, you might it's it's that's a book. That's a book I'm gonna write someday.

[33:24] Gennean Scott: Okay.

[33:24] Tammie Ward: But uh yeah, I mean, if I had known that I could jump right into a career managing people, doing logistics, doing math forensics and that kind of thing. I might have I might have been a little further on in my career.

[33:43] Gennean Scott: Well, we are glad you are where you are. So we always ask our guests this one last question.

[33:50] Tammie Ward: Oof.

[33:52] Gennean Scott: And speaking of had I known and you know Yeah. What is the one piece of advice you'd like to share with the black future leaders of Broadway?

[34:01] Tammie Ward: I will say again, learn a little bit about everything. Learn a little bit about the people who are doing all the jobs, right? That way you have more knowledge. Knowledge is power. The more you know, the more power you have. And understand how the collaboration works. Ask the questions. Who does what? How does this work? How does this get to here? How much does this cost? Don't be afraid to ask how much things cost or how much people get paid. Those are not secrets. Those are not secrets. And it might help you to determine where you want to be in your career. I think it's always I think it's just an important thing to be well rounded in this career in in in this industry. Be well rounded.

[34:55] Gennean Scott: Absolutely. Well, thank you, Tammie.

[34:59] Tammie Ward: Thank you. This was it's always like I said, it's always fun to talk with you. You you always raise so many great thoughts, and we're lucky to have you.

[35:04] Tammie Ward: Oh thank you at the league. I have tried to take a bit of everything that I've been exposed to or touched, um, and I have learned that that is added value. Also, while you're meeting people and you can connect to them on the level, if you know a little bit about what they're doing and their job and what their responsibility is to this piece, uh getting to know those people and talking to them with that in mind, I think helps provide value to the what you're doing, what they're doing, and the piece overall.

[35:49] Gennean Scott: It is very, very important to know what everything, who everybody is, what everybody's doing, you know, not in depth, but certainly to a level where you can understand how all the pieces fit in the pie.

[36:05] Tammie Ward: Right. Exactly. So can you break down what a theater operations director is?

[36:11] Tammie Ward: Oh, you know, a day in a life of Tammie. Well, listen, no two days are the same. I have to tell you that. I mean, um, the Shubert Organization owns 17 um Broadway houses. We own six off Broadway, and certainly um the forest in Philadelphia. But uh we essentially what theater operations does is we're we're sort of we serve two guests in our theaters, the actual producers who are our clients, and the patrons who come to see our show. And our job is to make sure that both are well taken care of, if you will, both get their money's worth, and both have a great experience.

[36:52] Tammie Ward: So we administer the day-to-day functions related to integrating them into our houses. We coordinate information between the show and Schubert ticketing, any of the facilities when they're loading in. We deal with patron issues. A big thing right now is a couple of our shows have some sight line issues that were a surprise to everyone. And so we're dealing with the shows and working out how patrons can either feel more comfortable or how to make their experience better. So that's been kind of a challenge today. Also, this morning the mayor gave the key to the city to Lord Andrew Lloyd Webber, and theater operations had to assist with security and all their teams, and that they have everything they needed to make sure that that event went off without a hitch.

We work with, you know, there's 17 Broadway unions. Our department manages PAM, which is the Association of Theatrical Press Agents and Managers, Local 306, which is the US, Local 751, which is the treasurer's box office staff, and Local One, the stagehands. A typical day, I mean, it could be reviewing customer service standards with the front-of-house staff or looking at notifying everyone if a show has been canceled. We have to get that information out to all of our, not just our operational teams, but to the patrons themselves, right? Any pre-show activities that are happening, we have to approve those. Like a few years ago, a Christmas Carol at the Lyceum had they threw oranges around in the pre-show activities and they did lots of different fun things if you saw the show, and we had to work with them.

It's like you can't really toss this high because you're gonna hit somebody in the head. You know, it's just working with your show to make sure all of the elements that the producer wants to happen happens the way they want, in a safe way, and then also protecting and providing safety and comfort to our patrons that come to the theater. So it's a variety of things.

[39:29] Gennean Scott: Wow. A variety of things. Can you talk about, as a theater operations director at Schubert, but just in general, the senior management positions that you've held? What has that been like, especially being a woman of color in the theater industry at a time where we're talking about diversity, equity, and inclusion, and really making theater more accessible? You talk about serving two patrons, so looking at the producer side, but also looking at the patron side of those who are coming in. How has it been navigating this world as a woman of color, as a Black woman?

[40:19] Tammie Ward: I tell you, the first word that comes to mind has been rocky. It has been a rocky journey, as like you, probably, and many other women of color in this industry, we're often the only ones in the room. Yes. Right. And for a long, long time, we didn't know how to connect with others to sort of talk about issues and to work through problems and just to have someone else who knows what your struggle is. I have to say that there was a—I'm just want to give you an example. There had been a kind of complicated exchange with the presenter over email. And when we loaded in the theater, got into the theater, this presenter came downstairs, you know, because usually our offices are in the basements of the theaters, right?

Yes. Came downstairs and immediately looked in and said, "When the company manager comes back, would you please let them know I need to talk with them?" Without introducing themselves, really, without asking me if I was the company manager, they assumed I was not the company manager, right? Mind you, I'm the only one in the room. It's an office, it's one table, one desk. Had I been able to connect with other women of color on the road, you know, just to talk about how that felt, boy, that would have been, you know, yes it—it’s been rocky.

[41:56] Tammie Ward: Another instance I just want to share, because it's been good, it's been rocky. When I was working on contracts for touring shows, at one of the Spring Road conferences, someone I had had phone conversations with and email exchanges, a happy, pleasant, very nice presenter. They came up to a group of us standing and talking, and my boss at the time was standing there, and she introduced me. "This is Tammy. Wanted you to meet her," and there was a beep, beep, beat. "Oh, you never—I would never have guessed you were Black." Oh, Tammy, no, don't say it all. My goodness, so nice to meet you. Oh my goodness, I had no idea. Oh, it is so nice to meet you. She went on like that. And I let her go on like that because I didn't want to say what I really wanted to say.

Had I had an outlet, had I known how to reach to others of us to say, "How do I, you know, how do I get out of this?" Because I'm gonna see them for the next two days at the Spring Road conference. So what am I gonna do? How am I gonna respond? But since the racial reckoning after George Floyd, I made a conscious effort to try and reach out now that we were coming out of the woodwork, right? It's like I'm here too. I've always been the only one in the room. How did I know I did not have access to you? You know, because we all work in silos in certain instances, and we're always the only one. But now that we've been able to see each other, as it were, I've been able to form my own little group.

Actually, it has a nickname, it's Core Four Plus One. Shout out to Core Four Plus One of people who are in the industry that I know and trust, and we can all talk about all things, social, also business, right? And to talk about what it is like being in the room. How do we take off our masks and be our real selves without some of the trauma that comes with that, without the craziness that comes with that?

[45:40] Tammie Ward: So that's sort of been—I'm at a place now, I think now having spent time in the league and people seeing me. The other, you know, the big question sometimes is where were you before? They want to know, like did you just pop up on the scene or how did you get here, right? And then I am happily ready to spill my entire resume. So they go, "Oh, okay, yeah, you belong." But the thing is though, and this is my biggest issue, is I don't hear a lot of other people having to justify. Exactly. Exactly. And that it just—I know it hurts, it does hurt, and I don't think that people realize how hurtful that one thing is.

[45:40] Tammie Ward: You want to be an ally, it's all the things what people say is true. You have to learn how to be a better ally. You don't say that I know you want to get to know me, but that's not the question to ask. Well, where were you before this? No, ask me how am I enjoying my time at Schubert. Get to know me as a person. Right. And know that I'm not in this position by accident or because of the color of your skin. Or because of the color of my skin. I mean, I love the fact that when I was hired, they said the color of your skin was a bonus. Yeah. I was very—I was like, okay, Schubert, okay. Theater VP of theater operations weren't showebi, okay. I appreciate that. It was just a—it was a bonus. But they said they were looking for someone with my skill set where I had done all the work in the different areas of the theater, and I touched the contract in different areas of the theater, and I could speak with a producer's mind, can speak with the creative side, et cetera.

So I hope that we're all coming around, but clearly there's more work to do, and I'm finding ways to find others of us to bring into my circle and to reach out to. And you know, I'm always trying to find ways to put a whole bunch of Black women in a room together in this business because, you know, there are those clubs out there, those organizations that are out there, women of color, I believe. But I think they're geared toward actors. They're geared toward the creative teams, playwrights and directors. But what about the business, us business folks doing the behind-the-scenes groundwork? You don't see us. You don't see anybody in theater operations. It's so rare, and that's so spot on. It's so rare.

Or we get together and it's a group of everybody who is of color, you know, that are in this industry, whereas the experiences are some of them are very similar, but they're also very different in the day-to-day work side of things. Not that we have made strides on the stage, I'll say. Yes, I absolutely, but it's the offices that where we are, it's the offices and where we're far behind because it's hidden, right? Exactly. People don't know because—and you know, I heard someone say once, "Well, no one sees them anyway." Don't make me laugh. Don't make me say stuff out loud on this podcast. No, I mean, no, no, no. And but it was said before, and I mean, you know, and this not in this space, but it was said before. And it just—I guess I'm just like, yeah. Yeah. Wow, what? Yeah. Yeah. What? Like that's—that's what you want to say.

[49:04] Tammie Ward: You know? Um again, our allies need to really, really keep digging. Yeah. You've done the thing. I think producers, as you said, producers have have we've made inroads into making sure the lives of the actors and creative teams um are valued and their time and their art is valued. Uh and they are seen. Mm-hmm. The f the business folks are still churning it out. You know, we're still showing up and we're still moving in these in these spaces where we're working with the people who have the power, the people who have who own the room, if you will. And I've been fortunate to get to go into some of those rooms and I continue to try to make a way to make sure I keep uh keep a seat at the table when I can. And to then use my voice and use my experience um sharing freely, openly, truly what it is that we need and and being the being the other voice in the room.

[50:17] Gennean Scott: And I appreciate you being their voice in the room.

[50:21] Tammie Ward: I do. I chose I feel like sometimes um, you know, like Seymour in Little Shop of Horrors, where at the very end he's like, Oh hack you to bits from the inside. You know, that's kind of how I look at it. It's like I'm infiltrating and I'm gonna be part of this, but I'm gonna you know, I'm still gonna be working on the the things that are wrong from the inside. Exactly. Inside out. So can you talk about your role as the founding member of the Schubert organizations diversity equity inclusion committee for institutional advancement? I know it's a long title, long chunky, chunky title. At the time we were trying to be very, very like we want to make this have some heft and some importance and um it's now the committee, right?

It's the oversight, DEI oversight committee. But it it certainly came around the time of the where everyone else was was struggling and things were being brought to light, just how exclusive the Broadway industry and theater industry across the country has been. Um I can't remember if it was Julio Peterson who's VP of of Real Estate for Schubert or Bob Wenkel, um, chairman and and president who who asked me to a meeting first, a Zoom meeting, to just talk about where we as people of color feel Schubert is. Now imagine it's a hundred and twenty something year old um organization. Right. It's always been run by men, um, white men. Um so sitting down at a table with them um to discuss where we are was a little overwhelming at the beginning.

It was it was and you know, the question was, well, what is it that people of color want at Schubert? What is it that what can we do? What what is it that we need to fix? Well, it's a lot of stuff. And you know, we laid out some practical things right away that we we felt could we we are the elephant in the room, we have so many resources, we need to open our doors, open our funds, um our our resources or m and make them available. So we came up with several committees that we thought would make an impact immediately while we worked on a strategic goal for the company at large. And one of those was the artistic circle, which is to we um invite uh young producers of color into um our fold, if you will, and offer them assistance and guidance and resources and funds.

We did an advocacy series uh, you know, back since everyone's still at home and watching that stuff. Um we created an internship program that is is about to enter into its second year for students of color who are looking for non-performance careers in theater. So it it was a it was a struct, you know, we did a survey, we had a consultant come in. I gotta tell you, some of those early conversations were very awkward. You know, I respect um uh Bob Wenkel so very much. Uh I'm so glad that we get, you know, I get to work with he and Elliot and Charlie and Mark Schweppe um on some of the things that we can fix within Schubert, and I've been fortunate to have that voice uh within the organization.

Um but we're we're making strides, we're coming along. We've done some outward work, certainly the James Earl Jones theater naming was a big big piece. Um and and things that are not seen behind that, you know, we offer assistance, financial assistance, or rehearsal space, or a number of things. So uh but but now our goal is really to focus on our staff and how to turn that sort of eye into making um how we involve our staff sort of changing the culture here at Schubert.

[54:34] Gennean Scott: Right. So you mentioned the artistic circle and the advocacy series program. Are those both still going on? Like are people able to get involved?

[54:46] Tammie Ward: The actually the artistic circle just announced its second cohort some very very talented folks you can find them on uh shubert.nyc in that program um again offering young producers the space the networking the funds the um access is always big right uh so we're very proud of that one the Schubert Advocacy series is on a hiatus um we met with so many great organizations that were starting out we wanted to help spread the word so again we provided resources where uh we had a digital studio and we gave them a platform for that so there are a number of of great great um video conversations on our website as part of a Schubert advocacy series and is there a place where if some because you talked about uh some of the jobs that aren't on stage that the programs you have is there a place where people can apply or well the internship is every summer and we've just finished um well we're about to start selecting we just finished the application process.

But I would encourage students, it's really geared for graduating high school seniors and freshmen in college, incoming freshmen. Because it's right at that time. If I had known, if I had known really that I could use my skill set in a career and still stay in the theater, I think I might have saved 10 years of my uh of my career.

[56:26] Gennean Scott: Me too. You know, right? Had I known then what I know now, right? So that's that sweet spot where we think that students are still trying to find where they fit in the world of theater.

[56:41] Tammie Ward: Right. And by the time you get to college, you you haven't maybe you've declared that theater's gonna be your major, but you're not quite sure where you're gonna go. That's what our internship is for. And we give them access to all the departments here at Shubert, but also give them access to people in the industry. Uh so we're we're extremely, extremely excited to get our second uh second year up and going in June.

[57:09] Gennean Scott: Yes, I I 100% agree. I say it all the time. If I'd have known that this was a career, right? I would have I would have run to it.

[57:23] Tammie Ward: Listen, I there's something few people only sort of like my close friends know that uh we had a I have a set of quadruplets uh as as siblings. So there were six of us, myself, a younger brother, yes, myself, a younger brother in between, and then the four of them. That's we had there were six kids in the family. And I they were born when I was ten. So we thought we were just having one, and then the doctor later on, you know, it was, you know, sonograms and that kind of stuff were not back then, you know, advanced. But there was one, then he said, Oh, it's definitely twins. And then as she got further along, it was like, ooh, it might be three. Well, guess what? It was for. Anyway, so our our family doubled from four to eight overnight.

Oh wow. And so needless to say, it was all hands on deck, right? So all it's like the diaper schedule, the bottle schedule. We you know, we had some people to come in, we had uh nurses that would come in the 24 hours early on, and then it cut back to daytime. But you know what? I learned time management. I learned logistics, event planning anytime we had to go anywhere. I gotta tell you, I I always say that I learned my skills at home. I learned there were the basis from my people's skills. You know, no joke. I mean, as they grew older, I mean there was uh anyway, you might it's it's that's a book. That's a book I'm gonna write someday. Okay. But uh yeah, I mean if I had known that I could jump right into a career managing people, doing logistics, doing math forensics and that kind of thing, I might have I might have been a little further on in my career.

[59:18] Gennean Scott: Well, we are glad you are where you are. So we always ask our guests this one last question, and speaking of had I known and you know Yeah, what is the one piece of advice you'd like to share with the black future leaders of Broadway?

[59:35] Tammie Ward: Oof, I will say again, learn a little bit about everything. Learn a little bit about the people who are doing all the jobs. Right. That way you have more knowledge. Knowledge is power. The more you know, the more power you have. And understand how the collaboration works. Ask the questions. Who does what? How does this work? How does this get to here? How much does this cost? Don't be afraid to ask how much things cost or how much people get paid. Those are not secrets. Those are not secrets. And it might help you to determine where you want to be in your career. I think it's always, I think it's just an important thing to be well-rounded in this career in this industry. Be well rounded.

[1:00:28] Gennean Scott: Absolutely. Well, thank you, Tammy.

[1:00:33] Tammie Ward: Thank you.

[1:00:34] Gennean Scott: This was, it's always, like I said, it's always fun to talk with you. You you always raise so many great thoughts, and we're lucky to have you at the league. I want to thank our guests and you, our listeners. You could have been doing anything else, but you chose to spend your time with me, and I am grateful. Be sure to subscribe at BPN.fm slash BBB. So you'll never miss an episode. While you're at it, tell a friend. I'm your host, Gennean Scott, and we at the Broadway League hope you enjoyed this episode of the Black Business of Broadway.