This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Donna Walker-Kuhne: My career has pretty much been based on filling in the gaps, filling in where there wasn't opportunity or community. So I always have looked around to see who's in the room. And when I see people of color missing, then I hone in on what are the strategies that we need to invite them to make them feel welcome.

[0:28] Gennean Scott: Welcome to the Black Business of Broadway, a podcast brought to you by the Broadway League and Black to Broadway. Here we highlight the stories, how-tos, and successes of the Black professionals and legends of Broadway. I am your host, Gennean Scott. I'd like to welcome our guest who has been referenced many times throughout the podcast, Donna Walker-Kuhne. Donna is president of Walker International Communications Group, a boutique marketing and audience development consulting agency. Thank you for joining us today. I'm super excited to have you.

[1:10] Gennean Scott: Donna, I know you graduated from Howard University School of Law, but you aren't practicing family law. For the past 30 years, you've been leading the way in the arts administration world and have literally written the book on audience development. How and why did you decide to pivot?

[1:32] Donna Walker-Kuhne: Well, thank you. And thank you so much for this opportunity to have a conversation with you. I'm one of your fans and delighted to expand our understanding of a dancer, you know, in Chicago and performed and taught with a dance company for many years, the Julian Swain Inner City Dance Theater, and then later my sisters and I, along with some other friends, founded another dance company called Nejua Dance Corps, which is still very much in existence and has a junior corps, performs and teaches in Chicago. So that grain was so deeply entrenched in my life. Even, you know, going to law school, which was following a passion I've had ever since, you know, I was a teenager. I wanted to change the world.

That was my goal. What's the best platform to do that? Well, I think maybe law might be that. And so I danced all through law school. I produced our talent show. I took ballet classes every morning at 7 a.m. So that never went away. But when I got married and moved to New York and started working as assistant corporation counsel, I did feel as if I had to make a decision. Plus, I didn't really know dancers that were generating a living that would be comfortable from being a professional dancer. So I just felt, okay, so let's just practice law and you can look at dance from afar. But that wasn't enough. And fortunately, one of my colleagues at Family Court recommended the Thelma Hill Performing Arts Center, which was directly across the street from Family Court, and said, "Why don't you go over there and see what's cooking?"

So I did. The moment I walked in the office, I just saw my career, I saw my future, I saw my life. Because there were papers everywhere. There were posters of performances and shows, and I thought, well, at the very least, I can organize this space. Let me just concentrate on that on my lunch hour. This is all lunch hour activity. Oh my goodness. But the lunch hours started to extend, and it's now four o'clock, and judges are looking for Council Walker and where is she? Oh, she's across the street. So I thought, okay, I think I have found my mission. And because I was teaching myself how to be an arts administrator during my lunch hour while prosecuting juveniles. And so I was reading what I was filing.

So I taught myself about writing a press release, how to write a grant proposal, what does a budget look like? How do you write a proposal in general? But all those things I kind of taught myself because I didn't know about any of these academic programs that we all have now that I teach in, you know, and in my U in Columbia. So, you know, I wrote a grant proposal to pay myself a salary as the managing director of the Thelma Hill Performing Arts Center. That really formally launched my career. And then I was still, you know, very much yearning to be in the world of dance, and my world very much was Afrocentric. And so I wrote a letter. I didn't have a resume; I wrote a letter to Arthur Mitchell, who was then the artistic director and founder of Dance Theater of Harlem.

And I just said in the letter, you need me, and I have all these different skills. I'm sure I can be an asset. And the day my letter arrived, the marketing director for Dance Theater had resigned. And it was two weeks before their city center season when ticket sales were very low. So Mr. Mitchell called me and he said, "I got your letter." Can you sell tickets? I said, "Yes," and I was hired. And that began my nine-year journey with the Dance Theater of Harlem, traveling around the world, building African American audiences for the company and developing new initiatives in audience development. So that was really the core that established the foundation of my work.

[5:28] Gennean Scott: Wow.

[5:29] Donna Walker-Kuhne: Wow.

[5:32] Gennean Scott: No, no, seriously. I mean, because it talks about your passion and your purpose, and how sometimes there's just that thing inside of you that you just can't run from. No matter how hard you try, you just can't run from your calling, right?

[5:50] Donna Walker-Kuhne: That's right.

[5:51] Gennean Scott: That's right. Well, I'm glad you were called, and I'm glad you answered. So during your rise, you know, what opportunities were you able to capitalize on when and if there were none or when there were none, how did you create your own way, your own path?

[6:08] Donna Walker-Kuhne: Well, that's a great question because my career has pretty much been based on filling in the gaps, filling in where there wasn't opportunity or community. So I always have looked around to see who's in the room. And when I see people of color missing, then I hone in on what are the strategies that we need to invite them to make them feel welcome. And so that's what I did at Dance Theater of Harlem. You know, my career actually was a result of one question. We were in, I think, Cincinnati on tour, and Mr. Mitchell, we were looking at the house, the audience, and Mr. Mitchell turned to me and he said, "Donna, where are the Black people?" And I looked at him and I said, "I don't know." So then I went to the presenters and I started asking, "What are you doing to engage the Black community?"

And the majority of them said, "Well, we don't really quite know what to do. We want them, but we have not mastered what that should look like." So that's when I decided, well, that's what I'm going to do. And so that became my focus. And that's what I built the national Audience Development Task Force for Dance Theater of Harlem. We increased our earned revenue by 45%. Wow. And I remember I traveled to all the cities we went to in the United States, and I would go six months in advance of the performance state and build an audience development committee, empowering leadership and influencers in the Black community to own the work. And no one had done that before. There's a difference between putting out flyers, running ads, and saying buy tickets.

My conversation was, because of you, this will be a success. Because of you, we will be able to really build legacy with African Americans experiencing and enjoying Dance Theater of Harlem. So it was a very different conversation. And no one ever said no to me as I built these different committees all over the country. I don't recall anyone ever saying no. And if they did, I didn't hear it because I was very clear, this is the path. This is how we're going to transform who attends the arts and also so that we can remove this feeling of being elite and not being for people of color. So that has always been my focus since that time. So those opportunities have continued to develop. So when I went to the Public Theater, you know, and George invited me to come.

[8:40] Gennean Scott: So I'm glad you mentioned that because in the book, and I say you literally wrote the book because you did write the book on audience development called Invitation to the Party. I believe that this book is a blueprint for how to engage audiences, not just Black audiences, but how to engage audiences, and it talks about the commitment that one has to make. But I want to go to a conversation that you had, and you just talked about George C. Wolfe at the Public Theater, one of the producers of Bringing the Noise, Bringing the Funk, with Savion Glover. And he said to you, "I want the theater to look and feel like a subway stop in New York City." Can you expand on that vision? Because that was in 1996. And that's right. And here we are in 2022. How do you see that vision playing out now? Or do you think it's still relevant?

[9:44] Donna Walker-Kuhne: Oh, absolutely, it's extremely relevant, it's necessary, it's critical. So that conversation was in my first meeting with George. George left the message on my voicemail of those days when we had voicemails before cell phones, and I had heard about George. This is what was so interesting. I had heard about this African American writer, director, you know, jelly slash jam, no Tony nominated. He won the Tony Awards for Angels in America. He's now running the Public Theater color museum, you can't even get a ticket for. And I just thought, oh my goodness, if I could ever meet this person, that would just be really amazing. So when I got the voicemail, I actually thought it was a joke. I just thought, why in the world would he call me?

I just couldn't imagine that. And so, of course, I called back and he said, "Yeah, you know, I heard about you. Can you come in?" So, of course, I was already, I had my little favorite black and white polka dot dress. I could still see the whole meeting. This was in '93. I can still see it, have my polka dot dress, my little purse, have my heels. And I was just so excited to be able to sit and meet with George. You know, George is so affable, he's so comfortable. I mean, you can, you just, he's in his skin so deeply that you go even deeper into yours. He's an absolutely extraordinary individual. I don't know if anyone has the opportunity to be in the orbit of George C. Wolfe, you're incredibly fortunate.

And so when we started talking, and George said, "Yeah, you know, I've been here three months, and I noticed the audiences are predominantly white, and I'd like this place to look like a subway stop. How would you do it?" Well, at this point, I was extremely confident in how I can engage African Americans for ballet.

[11:31] Donna Walker-Kuhne: So I knew I could encourage them to come and see theater. And I expanded the model and I talked about our Latino community, our Asian American, our LGBTQ, our youth, and our seniors. I said, those demographics I believe I can apply this template to in varying ways, but certainly, um, I think I can be effective with that, you know. And I was just dreaming out loud. I really was. I had no idea he wanted to offer me a role position. And so, uh, he said, thank you. I was like, oh, how lovely. So I took me and my little polka dot dress and we left. And I thought, well, that was wonderful. And then a week later, George called and said, when can you start? How many staff do you need? And what would you like to call your department?

So I looked at the phone, I said, once again, this must be a joke. People don't get these kinds of offers. But then I did. And I, and so I really struggled to leave Dancefield of Harlem because that had been my life, that was my identity. I loved ballet, I love dance, I love the company, I loved Mr. Mitchell. But George was offering me the world. He was offering me a broader landscape, a different genre. I knew nothing about theater. I'm a different neighborhood. I'm now in the village as opposed to Harlem. And I just felt my life was ready to grow. So I said yes. And that began nine years of working side by side with George every single day with the vision of creating a subway stop. I walked in the door with that.

I left in the evening with that, and that's what I dreamt about. I did have the bandwidth in my life to totally embrace the work and the artists. And we had such incredible artists that were coming through. That's where I met Reuben, Santi Uncle Hudson. That's why I was like, okay. Jessica Hagador. That's where I met so many people that were all in George's orbit. And so that I had access to them. We were working with Rosie Perez on a play. And I said, Rosie, I'm going to need you to come with me to various community events so that we can engage people and talk to them about the play. She was like, yes, let's go. We hopped in her little SUV and we were off. You know, and so did the same Susan Laurie Parks.

I worked on all five of her plays at the public. And the first one, I didn't have a clue what that was about. And I told George, uh, what was it? The American. She's one of our country's greatest playwrights, and we're going to do her work. So I translated that as take your time, you'll figure it out. So I started to, I decided, let me get to know her. And we started to have lunch, and I would take her to different events. And Barnes and Nobles had just opened on Astor Place, so I would take her there to do readings from some of her plays. We were the first to actually bring the concept of artists reading scripts at Barnes and Noble. And you know, I just realized this is the process, this is how she thinks, this is how she tells the story.

And I also share with her the response I was hearing from the audiences and then struggling to really understand the depth of her work. Clearly, we could see the brilliance. We didn't necessarily understand what the play was about. It was the America play. Each one just evolved into understanding it more clearly. So by the time we did Top Dog Underdog, I literally did not have to pick up the phone. The calls were coming in so fast and furious. Of course, it didn't hurt that we had Don Cheadle and Jeffrey Wright and George directing. Right. But there was an ownership that people had with her work because they had followed her for those five plays. And together we had figured out how do we embrace, understand, and celebrate Susan Laurie Park.

So that's an example of an institution committing to an artist and making, you know, this a primary objective that we're going to do the work and we're going to take the time, we're going to understand the artist so we can celebrate and engage as many audiences and communities as possible. And I was standing next to Susan Laurie when she got the call that she had won the Pulitzer Prize. And we could we already had the champagne there, we were hoping it would happen, but it was just such a wonderful moment of going from I don't know what this is, to fantastic, and now the world is acknowledging it as well.

[15:59] Gennean Scott: Yeah, no, you you know you you totally answered the question and I I want to hear all 40 years worth of your stories too good because we because there's something to learn you know and we we the younger the next generation um are relying on on you on your on this on the season folks like yourself you all are are you all have created a blueprint for us to follow you are saying these are these are these are the paths to go and these are the paths not to go or if you choose to go these are the things that you need to know if you're going that direction so I appreciate hearing the stories that that you and Lady Irene Gandy and all of you have have to share with us because there is a there is a breadth of knowledge there that I we we have to capture otherwise we're we're gonna lose it um and and I don't I don't want that to happen but but getting back sorry I I digress getting back though when would you say I mean in in creating this subway stop would you say that part of creating an inclusive atmosphere correlates with diversifying those offstage positions?

[15:59] Donna Walker-Kuhne: Yes, because we would not have needed to have this effort of audience development were the environment inclusive and it was not. And so that's what these efforts were designed to do was to open up the space and people feel welcome from the very beginning from when they leave their home. It's also about community. So what are the points of engagement? Is it dialogue before? Is it dialogue after? You know, all of that I think we need. So that's that's how you kind of build that audience development. I think that is very much needed today, you know, certainly in the wake of the murder of George Floyd, you know, the the the reality and the facts of racism that exists in every sector of our society became incredibly clear at that time.

And so as we put the mirror up to all of our industries, we look at the arts, we look at Broadway, we realize that that's a reflection of the society. So how do we change that? So yes, we very much need this inclusive kind of effort. You know I applaud all of my colleagues in the field who are working commercial world and nonprofit who are really assiduously focused on how can we create these experiences how can we make the voices of our communities heard as part of these experiences in theater I think is fantastic. It is wonderful.

[18:46] Gennean Scott: Yeah and the Broadway league has a program Broadway Bridges where we try to make sure that every high school student sees at least one Broadway one Broadway play. And I think I think that along with everything that you're talking about is just one one one more piece of one more piece of the pie because I think if we show them and and we expose it we expose them to it then they start to create their own experiences and and maybe and maybe it'll spark a it'll spark an interest, it'll spark a passion as it as it did with with you and I.

[19:28] Donna Walker-Kuhne: Exactly. But they have to know that there that these positions and these jobs exist, that there are black producers, that there are black directors, choreographers, stage managers, company managers, general managers, so on and so forth. And so in addition to running an international business and the work that you do with NJPAC, New Jersey Performing Arts Center, uh, you also serve as an adjunct professor at NYU in Columbia. And so why is teaching and and cultivating these future arts administrators and hopefully these future Broadway employees, how why is that personal to you?

[20:15] Donna Walker-Kuhne: So I have three missions in life. I think everyone should know their mission and live by that. So my first mission is to develop the next generation of arts administrators who have a sensibility for what it means to have diversity in the arts community. What does that mean and look like? And as I continue to move throughout different sectors, because I work in all the industries, theater, dance, visual arts, music, uh, classical music, um, I would see it's the same. It was almost like the same narrative for each of those industries. Who's missing? Why aren't they coming? What can we do? And I thought, well, I can complain about that, or I can take action. And being a woman of action, I decided, well, the best place is in the classroom before they start working in the field and while they're still open to learning.

And so when I was at the public theater, I uh contacted uh NYU and just said, you know, I'm a marketer. You know, I was born marketing, I've been selling art since I was five, six years old. So I this is just this, it's instinctive to me. In addition to, of course, having the skills and being surrounded by wonderful marketers that I can continue to learn from. But I started in NYU in 1993, teaching in their School of Continuing Professional Studies. And then I was invited to teach in the graduate program of arts administration, which I've been in now, I guess probably 20 years. And but the primary reason I was teaching, in addition to what I shared as my mission, I also wanted to be able to impact arts administrators of color.

But that's not really the student population that I have. Rarely may have a student of color. And that's that has been something that has been disappointing. But it also just encourages me to make sure that the ones that I have, whoever's in front of me, that I can instill these principles. So all of my classes are focused on what you read, an invitation to the party. That's that's who I am. And so they they get that 100%. You know, I designed MYU invited me to design a new course three years ago, which is uh diversity, equity and inclusion for the performing visual arts. And in this course, you know, I focus on teaching what DIA means, diversity, I'm sorry, DEI means, and then we focus on community engagement.

And so I actually take my class to visit different organizations that are doing this kind of work so they can see visibly what it takes, what are the resources, and how maybe they can plant themselves in those environments to really start to change the field. Everybody wants the bright lights and say that I work on Broadway.

[23:03] Donna Walker-Kuhne: That's great, but there's so many other experiences too. And we don't have just one career. I'm in my eighth career. So you can do all of it. And so I am focused on raising this next generation of arts administrators that can have the kind of impact that will enable our world to be more humanistic and to be more inclusive. That is why I'm in the classroom throughout the year, teaching at two universities simultaneously, grading these papers at the same time, working and running, you know, my company. But this is my commitment. I also teach biannually at Bank Street College. And when I first started teaching, I created a certificate program at Fordham University because I was teaching there. And this was in the graduate school of business.

And I again had recognized that the few people of color I knew at that time that were in mid-level positions didn't have a pathway to go up to senior staff or to executive staff. And so my certificate program was an eight-week program that was co-taught by lecturers that I brought in and faculty from the grad school of business at Fordham. And we ran that for three years, certificate program. And I still run into many of my students who say, I got my certificate, I still have it, it's framed on my wall. But I will tell you that the majority of my students are doing quite well today. So leadership, critical, critical. We have to instill leadership skills and a sense of place that I have every right, every authority to be in the room where decisions are being made.

I'm not even talking about folks that are just picking up the phone. That's a very important job, but when I'm talking about changing the field, you have to have authority and you need to be signing checks. So that's my focus is to help develop and direct that kind of energy. Um, primarily for people of color, but frankly, I teach whoever's in front of me.

[25:09] Gennean Scott: So you said you said you um there are there are two prongs to your mission.

[25:15] Donna Walker-Kuhne: Oh, I'm sorry, my mission.

[25:16] Gennean Scott: Yeah, your mission.

[25:18] Donna Walker-Kuhne: Thank you. Thank you. No problem. So okay, so it's it's a mission with the arts. The second one is um um fostering support and interest for adoption, because my daughter's adopted, and I think that that is just the most beautiful way to create family. So I'm always advocating for adoption. And my dream one day that then there won't be any kids to be adopted because everybody got one. I love it. Um so so that one, and then you know, my third uh mission in life is to always be a person who can make a difference in the environment where I'm at, uh, and to be a person that leaves people feeling better than before I came and how I do that, you know, from my heart, um, from my you know, Buddhist practice, you know, that enables me to always, always think about being the best person I can and elevating my life condition to be a person um that people want to be around. And so I I live by those principles.

[26:20] Gennean Scott: And I will I will concur because the moment I met you and we we had a Zoom call because of pandemic you it was like okay what do you need? How can I help you to be successful? Call me anytime and you are always there and then we got to meet in person and again always there you put me in contact with with the other movers and shakers like yourself and it the the welcome the welcoming that you extended to me not even knowing me just just knowing that I was coming I am so grateful and I the fact that I get to have you in my life I mean whether you know it or not you you are a mentor to me and to so many others and we stand so much taller because we're we're on your shoulders and so I want to say to you that I appreciate you and I am grateful to have you uh in my life so you do live that mission and I and I am very appreciative of that.

[27:30] Donna Walker-Kuhne: Well I was so excited when I heard about you I was like I'm gonna call her because I know how challenging this work can be and not everybody might be supportive and I wanted you to know who your allies are from the jump. Really important to know who's in the room so yes I made that a personal commitment. But you not only helped me professionally but you helped me personally with getting acclimated and getting my daughter acclimated and I mean so you didn't have to do that. You could have just you could have just approached me on a professional level, but you looked at me as a whole person.

[28:06] Gennean Scott: Yes.

[28:07] Donna Walker-Kuhne: So I'm just so what I'm saying is you live, you are living, you're living, and and I'm proof that you're living that mission. I should tell you my second book, um, Champions for the Arts, uh, Successful Strategies for Building Anti-racist Arts Organizations will be out on June 1st.

[28:25] Gennean Scott: Oh, I didn't know that. Are you gonna have a release party?

[28:28] Donna Walker-Kuhne: Yes.

[28:29] Gennean Scott: Yay.

[28:30] Donna Walker-Kuhne: Absolutely. I my goal is to have champions for the arts parties all over the country, saluting people and organizations who celebrate the arts. That's that's what I want to do. My this book is focused on community engagement. As you know, my first book was audience development, and this book is on community engagement, really looking at how we build access to arts and culture in uh throughout the country. So that's coming.

[28:54] Gennean Scott: Can you can you can you talk a little bit about the themes of a little bit more about the themes of your upcoming book, or are you waiting?

[29:01] Donna Walker-Kuhne: Sure. So honest development is transactional. You know, the focus is to get people to buy tickets. We have a target demographic, and we're gonna create some events so they can purchase the tickets. But after the show, then then we're done. It's particularly on Broadway, whenever the show closes, there's nothing that connects um that community to the next show until you get another set of producers and GMs and PR and ad agencies, and you build it again. With community engagement, the deliverables are not sales, the focus is access. So, in other words, our communities, and I'm just particularly for black and brown communities, to understand how they can have access to the arts. Oftentimes means, well, I need to see it where it's comfortable for me.

We expect people to respond to our ad and come buy a ticket and come and see it. Or I may not be ready for that yet. I don't know where it is, I don't know what it is, what's it about, or you know, how am I supposed to carry myself while I'm there? I'm not sure about all that. So when we bring it to them in the community, meaning dance workshops or staged readings or literary events in collaboration with libraries, those are ways that we're building participation where people are, where they live. That's community engagement. So that the metrics with that are, you know, the the how we change perceptions of the arts, uh, the social media conversations and chat that goes on about, oh, I saw so and so, yeah, she was in my neighborhood.

Oh, we went to the store, yeah, I saw her. How the arts can start to be that thread for those kinds of experiences, and not having the pressure of how many tickets did you sell? Because that changes the whole approach. It just does. And not this lot of judgment, it's just an explanation of different ways that we can build audiences for the arts. So I have noticed uh, you know, since 2014, there has been a concentrated effort of community engagement amongst the performing arts centers around the country. We meet now uh bi-monthly, all the PACs by Zoom to share our best practices in community engagement because they now, the majority of the 35 performing arts centers around the country now are doing some form of community engagement, whether they have a separate department or it's a part of arts education or part of marketing.

And so we have now created this field of community engagement. And I developed the second uh community engagement department in the country at New Jersey Performing Arts Center in 2014, where we had a vice president, which was me, dedicated budget and staff. And so since that time, you know, it has really been evolving quickly because there's an understanding within the performing arts industry that the more we invest in our communities, the more we're going to see the results from engagement and people actually wanting to come because they feel I'm a part of this, I know what it's about, I know so and so. Yes, I know her. And so that makes such a difference. And so I wrote about it because you know, and I started the book.

Actually, I wrote the book before the pandemic. But then once the pandemic hit, I had to rewrite the book because it needed to reflect what it's like to do this in the time of COVID. And TCG is my publisher, and then they so they really encouraged me to do that. I was like, okay. And then after the murder of George Floyd, I had to go back into it and really focus it on anti-racism and how DEI efforts can also be are also very, very important towards building audiences.

[32:44] Gennean Scott: Donna, it has been amazing, as it always is, chatting with you. And at the end of each podcast, we like to ask one final question. And it is what is one piece of advice you'd like to share with the Black future leaders of Broadway.

[33:04] Donna Walker-Kuhne: I would say place yourself in the room where decisions are being made to step into your power because people like me, Lady Irene have opened those doors. You don't have to open them anymore. You step right on in and sit down. And I would say to educate yourself about the genre, make sure you know what you're talking about, understand marketing and publicity, social media. Be smart. Be really smart. That means polish. Polish your skills. Don't just walk in there because you're cute. Walk in there because you've got the knowledge, and that gives you the authority to have a seat and speak up. Speak up during the meetings. Don't wait. Use your voice, use your power because we're all there with you. We're surrounding you. I want them to know that.

[34:03] Gennean Scott: You could have been doing anything else, but you chose to spend your time with me, and I am grateful. Be sure to subscribe at bpn.fm slash bb so you'll never miss an episode. While you're at it, tell a friend. I'm your host, Gennean Scott, and we at the Broadway League hope you enjoyed this episode of the Black Business of Broadway.