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[0:06] Jess McInally: Hello, I'm Jess McInally.

[0:09] Andrew DeWolf: And I am Andrew DeWolf.

[0:10] Brianna Jones: And I'm Brianna Jones.

[0:12] Jess McInally: And welcome to Musicals with Cheese, a podcast where I try to get Andrew and Bree to like musical theater.

[0:16] Jess McInally: And Andrew, we have a returning special guest.

[0:20] Andrew DeWolf: I feel like we have a lot of returning special guests, Jess.

[0:24] Jess McInally: This one better be really special.

[0:26] Jess McInally: I mean, this is really special. It's been a while since she's been on, and I've missed her so much. Please welcome back, musical theater historian and host of Stealing Focus, an all-around amazing human being, Emily Clark!

[0:38] Emily Clark: Yay!

[0:40] Emily Clark: Oh my god!

[0:42] Emily Clark: Hello, everybody. Happy pride.

[0:44] Andrew DeWolf: Happy pride, yeah.

[0:46] Jess McInally: Yeah, you were actually at the start of this instead of like at the end because we forgot in the last episode.

[0:52] Emily Clark: Oh, don't worry.

[0:53] Jess McInally: We forgot to say it in the last episode, and then we did The Lion King where you just made a dumb joke about it.

[0:58] Emily Clark: My goodness.

[1:03] Andrew DeWolf: There should be a pride rock, but like a gay pride rock or LGBTQ pride rock.

[1:08] Jess McInally: Make it go join me.

[1:10] Andrew DeWolf: Already rocks, okay.

[1:13] Jess McInally: Let's be clear. So there's some implications.

[1:17] Andrew DeWolf: I'm willing to say that's like three dads and one mom.

[1:21] Jess McInally: Come on.

[1:22] Emily Clark: Hi, and the falsetto's had that same situation.

[1:25] Andrew DeWolf: So how about this modern family, baby? It takes a village.

[1:30] Emily Clark: It does.

[1:30] Jess McInally: We don't need families anymore.

[1:32] Andrew DeWolf: I'm a dumb we're done with this.

[1:35] Jess McInally: You know what? I'm really mad, in fact. Emily, maybe you could help us out with this. We're having a little bit of a situation here at Musicals with Cheese, and I don't like it.

[1:45] Jess McInally: So Brie is bringing her boyfriend into town, and super conservative, like one of the worst people in the world is her boyfriend's father, and I don't like that.

[1:57] Andrew DeWolf: I thought you were gonna say her boyfriend!

[1:58] Emily Clark: Oh my god.

[1:59] Jess McInally: Okay, yes. Her boyfriend's.

[2:02] Andrew DeWolf: Rush Limbaugh's corpse.

[2:04] Jess McInally: She's the father of Rush Limbaugh.

[2:07] Emily Clark: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Those conservative family members, you gotta love them.

[2:10] Andrew DeWolf: And Andrew's like telling me that we gotta act like we aren't podcast hosts while they're around.

[2:16] Jess McInally: And I don't want to be what I'm not.

[2:18] Andrew DeWolf: Why would you have to not act like your podcast?

[2:20] Jess McInally: I don't know. They hate podcasts that much because they took radio away from Rush Limbaugh.

[2:25] Andrew DeWolf: Are embarrassing.

[2:26] Emily Clark: Nah. No, the way to do it is because this is across because a lot of normies across the board like the mainstream musical stuff. So, you know, you might be able to relate it to things like, what are the wicked.

[2:40] Andrew DeWolf: Uh, you know, a lot of people have like, I went to see Wicked when it was in town or the Hamilton.

[2:45] Jess McInally: They probably won't like Hamilton, but you know what I mean.

[2:45] Andrew DeWolf: Like, um, rap isn't music.

[2:49] Emily Clark: I mean, I have pretty liberal relatives who say that, and I'm like, you guys, you gotta stop.

[2:56] Andrew DeWolf: But um liberals.

[2:58] Emily Clark: Yeah. I don't know if they'll care.

[3:00] Andrew DeWolf: I don't know if they'll care. Be yourself, but I think if you have to deal with them, you could always be like, The music me on is a really good show. I really like that show, and they'll probably agree with you.

[3:10] Jess McInally: And you wouldn't have to lie about that because you do like that show.

[3:14] Andrew DeWolf: So you're saying I sh we shouldn't just lie and have a whole bunch of slapstick um I'm not yeah, a whole bunch of farce, right?

[3:22] Emily Clark: Uh storytelling sparse where we're all lying to each other, and I have to. And then at the end we have them on our podcast.

[3:28] Jess McInally: But you still but however, however, you should be in drag. That's just a given.

[3:32] Andrew DeWolf: This metaphor stretched itself far enough. We're talking about La Cage Aux Folles.

[3:37] Jess McInally: Hey!

[3:38] Andrew DeWolf: The music free!

[3:39] Jess McInally: It's my world that I want to have a little bridge in my world.

[3:55] Jess McInally: And it's not a place I have to hide in life.

[4:03] Jess McInally: Not wood. Till you can say what I am. So La Cage Aux Folles is a musical with music, lyrics by Jerry Herman, and a book by Harvey Fierstein based on La Cage Aux Folles by Jean Poiret.

[4:27] Jess McInally: It premiered on Broadway at the Palace Theater August 21st, 1983. It ran for four years and 1,761 performances, closing on November 15th, 1987. It received nine Tony Award nominations, winning a total of six, including Best Musical, Best Original Score, and Best Book of a Musical.

[4:46] Jess McInally: The show beat several strong competitors in many categories, including Stephen Sondheim's Sunday in the Park with George. It also won three Drama Desk Awards, but I mean George won the Pulitzer, which I guess is fine enough, but come on.

[5:01] Jess McInally: Um, the plot of this musical shut up, we'll talk about it later. Um, the plot of this is based on the French play of the same name. It's the Birdcage. It's just the Birdcage. It's a story of a flamboyant gay couple who must pretend to be straight for one night with one of the men in drag to dupe the conservative political family on their own.

[5:24] Andrew DeWolf: Funny you shouldn't mention the Birdcage because um, this is actually a big blind spot as far as like my musical theater history is concerned. I'm not a Jerry Herman guy. I've never been a Jerry Herman guy, so I kind of like La Cage Aux Folles.

[5:38] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, La Cage.

[5:40] Andrew DeWolf: But I watched The Birdcage just before I watched La Cage Aux Folles. Um, I was really shocked at how kind of gross The Birdcage is as a film, um, and its form of representation, and it spends equal amount of time humanizing the conservative Republicans as it does humanizing our good gay characters who are just nice human beings. Like they're trying to give them an equal say. And I was like, ugh, and this is in the 90s, and there's like so many stereotypes.

[6:03] Emily Clark: Enlightened centrists.

[6:11] Andrew DeWolf: You guys, I'm sorry, I can't agree with you. The Birdcage is one of my favorite films. I think the only way to make it work, because all also that conservative shit was very different at the time. It's not great.

[6:22] Emily Clark: Oh, I agree.

[6:23] Andrew DeWolf: But like it's so different at the time, and like I've no, I mean, I it's like how I know people who maybe lived through it who were LGBTQ at the time. Just like with Rent, they see it as a huge step forward in representation. Um, and it's endlessly quotable. I can quote every single line from that movie, and it's hilarious.

[6:42] Emily Clark: And fun fact, all the songs in it are cut Sondheim songs.

[6:47] Andrew DeWolf: Which is interesting when you compare it to the rivalry between Herman and Sondheim, especially this year.

[6:53] Emily Clark: Um, I do want to bring up the fact that I went in there and I was shocked, they're like, The Birdcage is fine. Elaine May writes a good script, um, and Mike Nichols is a good director. Like, all of that is fine. But then I watch La Cage Aux Folles expecting it to be like a worse version of that. And then I watch it, and we don't even introduce the conservatives at all until like the third act of the story, and I'm like, we're just focusing on like hanging out with these awesome gay characters the entire time, and we don't have like the weird Florida stereotypes of like all that. So I'm like, this is a better version of that.

[7:27] Andrew DeWolf: And I love Robin Williams and I love Nathan Lane, but I'm into this much more.

[7:31] Emily Clark: Yeah, I mean, you can like whatever you like. I mean, like, it's just a different take on it. Like La Cage has to strip it down even more just because of the nature of it being on a stage. You know, so there's different things they have to focus on.

[7:45] Andrew DeWolf: But you know, there's ways, there's stuff that um a French play in a French Italian film could get away with as far back as, you know, well before. You know, their whole cinema scene is just very different than ours, and it always has been.

[8:00] Emily Clark: Uh, French Italian film. I saw it way back, way back in the day. And um, it's great. I mean, it's shenanigans galore, and it's I grew up with The Birdcage, so like that's just in my brain and my DNA. So when I read when I look at La Cage Aux Folles, the film and all this stuff, I just am able to go, that's this beat, that's that beat, and they're all consistent.

[8:22] Andrew DeWolf: It kind of just shows one of those rare stories that can work in kind of across various mediums.

[8:28] Emily Clark: Exactly.

[8:30] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. Um, I just like this one better because I get to say La Cage Aux Folles. You know?

[8:34] Emily Clark: Yeah, yeah.

[8:36] Andrew DeWolf: People think I'm fancy.

[8:37] Emily Clark: It's pretty fancy, yeah.

[8:40] Jess McInally: But Andrew, you just watched this for the first time, like two days ago. What did you think as someone that's just discovering this now?

[8:48] Andrew DeWolf: It's really fun. There's a lot of dancing and a lot of dancing.

[8:53] Emily Clark: They don't do very much else.

[8:55] Andrew DeWolf: That's Jerry Herman for ya. I think they just they wanted to put a drag show on Broadway, and this was as close as they could get.

[9:04] Emily Clark: That's not too far off from what I gather with Harvey Fierstein and how he was brought in and all that.

[9:11] Andrew DeWolf: Well, I actually have a little I did I got my books out and I did a little little history lesson on myself. Um, well the production team was um Fierstein, Herman, and Arthur Lawrence. And Arthur Lawrence, all three of them gay men. And um, Fierstein has been very kind of vocal. Actually, all of them have been very vocal about the fact that, you know, he has this quote where he's like, if Broadway is gay men, which a lot of people would argue that it is, you know, it was kind of made on the uh kind of created by gay men across its entire history, really.

[9:46] Andrew DeWolf: Um, you weren't you didn't see gay characters on stage until in passing in the 70s and then with La Cage in the 80s. And um, you know, Lawrence had a um a career with like kind of being seen as like a big old communist and was on the blacklist, and um, you know, Jerry Herman's career had just suffered three flops, and he wasn't really anywhere at that point. He thought his career was over, and um they wanted to create something that with a message, but that wasn't like with the message bearing, you know, it's the 80s.

[10:23] Andrew DeWolf: Um, so the way they went, which I think is pretty clear, especially when you think about this is 1984. Um, they went with a very standard golden age musical comedy structure. Um, and by going that way, they make this story just a story about like a middle-aged couple going through some shenanigans that are still in love. And the gay stuff is almost supplemental.

[10:51] Andrew DeWolf: And you know, I rewatched the original Tony Awards of like the original, original one from the 80s, and um, you know, the opening number is pure like 1920s. It's Ziegfeld Follies arms and then tap dancing girls, and then at the end they take their wigs off. So that's the way to kind of suck the normies in, right? Especially in the 80s, where you have like maybe an older audience, which are like the ones going to theater at the time.

[11:15] Emily Clark: Um, you suck them in with that thing, and then it's like, oh, oh my gosh, like uh it seems quaint by our standards, but at the time it's this big reveal when even though they're singing with deep voices, you know, and they take their wigs off.

[11:29] Andrew DeWolf: Um, and I think that's the way they suck you in because Jerry Herman is not um he's he's a very specific type of songwriter, isn't he? Like he's very, he's very, you know, that kind of same melody over and over.

[11:44] Emily Clark: Um, but that melody is a really good melody, and then by the end of the song, you're all singing it together in the audience, and boy oh boy, does that it's very effective.

[11:54] Andrew DeWolf: It's very effective. And so that's the way they were able to kind of get their message in, is by putting it into this like kind of traditional structure of a show, this really old-timey structure. It's just that it's about a gay couple.

[12:08] Emily Clark: But let's not forget that that same Tony performance, they wouldn't let George Hearn wear a dress. He had to wear the suit and tie on the phone.

[12:14] Andrew DeWolf: He shared it on the stage.

[12:15] Emily Clark: Yeah. Just saying I am what I am.

[12:17] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I was curious about that. Um, I'm not quite sure why. I mean, I guess I could speculate on the why of the because it does 1984, and there is a very blatant uh message in the song. And um, you know, the show at the was coming out right during the AIDS epidemic, and it was very much tied it was in the first Broadway Care's Equity Fights AIDS performance was uh they were kind of the tent pole performance.

[12:45] Emily Clark: So even though they were really successful, like you said, over a thousand performances, it was still that whole thing where no one wanted to talk about it. Um, and no one wanted to go anywhere near it. And um, so that was kind of their way to express that. 'Cause it is such a, I mean, it is, it's unapologetic about itself. It is like when he throws that wig off at the end, it's like a big old middle finger to everyone. I love it. And it's not like Broadway was this was a totally foreign thing to Broadway. Um, maybe musical theater, but like a few years before that, um, Harvey Fierstein won the Tonys for Torch Song Trilogy and how frank that show is in and of itself is also part of why he got this, isn't that?

[13:33] Jess McInally: I feel like, oh, it definitely is. And I feel like plays, especially at the time, were kind of able to get away with it a lot more than musicals. I mean, there were plays that touched on homosexuality all the way back to like the 30s, but like Broadway musicals were a different creature. They're just so commercial and mainstream. And it's just funny how even in the seventies it didn't really happen, even when people started getting a little more experimental and like sexual and whatnot. It took, yeah, kind of this moment where Jerry Herman was like, Jerry Herman had held on to it for a long time. And he, uh, I think the story is that Tommy Tune and Maury Yeston were originally gonna do it, and then it fell through for them, and then Jerry Herman was able to snatch it up.

[14:14] Emily Clark: And um, Tommy Tune originally was like, I don't know how you're gonna put this on stage, you know, because he's obviously, you know, a big director choreographer, and obviously very gay, but um, they were able to do it, and I think it was just by falling back on these really familiar tropes. It's like Hello, Dolly! Um, you know, um, uh, George Hearn's character, uh, Albin might as well be Dolly or Mame. I mean, he's big and loud and like of a certain age and just unapologetic, and like the audience loves him. So I think that that's something he does very well.

[14:53] Jess McInally: I think I compared it to Hello, Dolly! before we started recording.

[14:57] Emily Clark: Yeah. I mean, I was like, it's similar to that. It's a vibe. Jerry Herman has a vibe to it. Is there a reason why Arthur Lawrence was never the one contacted or tapped to do the book writing? Because he's like the one that wrote the best book of a musical ever, Gypsy.

[15:12] Jess McInally: Yeah, I don't know. I think he was also really skeptical, but I, uh, about it, but I think it was more that, you know, Herman and Fierstein managed to find each other. And Lawrence also had worked as a director without writing the book at times. So I think it was just a thing where like Tune and Yeston fell through, and then it was kind of slotting people in, and Lawrence was like, I think the story is that like I could be getting this wrong. I think Herman like played him a few songs, like maybe even I Am What I Am, and then Lawrence was like, oh, okay, yeah, I can do this. Um, and you know, he was very aware of, you know, how he was kind of controversial. Um, so they wanted the message to be, I don't want to say subversive, but like so subtle that, uh, in there, there's a message, but the message is that the show exists.

[16:00] Emily Clark: Um, and, uh, that this shitty family needs to kind of learn to accept, you know, this other family, and that sometimes you have to marry into really shitty. I mean, I don't even think like the shitty family, they don't learn to accept them though.

[16:18] Jess McInally: No, but like there's hope because the daughter, I think is, and it's like hope for like the newer generation. At least if you want the honest thing, I think the son needs to accept his family for who they are.

[16:27] Emily Clark: But isn't that the lesson, like the real arc?

[16:29] Jess McInally: Yeah, that is the thing. Yeah, that is the lesson. And he apologizes and all that.

[16:33] Emily Clark: Yeah, which is probably why The Birdcage messes with me so much because the son doesn't really learn a lesson in that one. He just kind of, yeah, it's my dad, whatever. Never apologizes.

[16:44] Jess McInally: I think that's part of the reason why I think arc-wise, this hits me a little harder, and especially because, you know, Jerry Herman's tunes are pretty good too. Uh, I really don't want to like this musical is my other problem because I love Sunday so much.

[16:57] Emily Clark: But well, here's, uh, for me, Sunday is that kind of musical that never wins the Tony for Best Musical, like never does, and that's not weird to me.

[17:08] Jess McInally: Absolutely, La Cage did and should have won Best Musical, especially in 1984.

[17:16] Emily Clark: But Best Score still gets me.

[17:18] Jess McInally: Best Score is what gets me.

[17:20] Emily Clark: It's, I don't think it's a better score than Sunday in the Park with George. That's just my opinion. I think it's very good. I think it's very wonderful and a lot of fun, but it is, you know, Jerry Herman has his style, and Sondheim does too. But Jerry Herman really, the few, and this is the kind of the tragedy of Jerry Herman, I guess, is that the few times he tried to step out of his lane and do something a little darker, like Mack and Mabel or Dear World, it just tanked, tanked, tanked, tanked, tanked, just didn't work. So La Cage was different for him, but almost going back to a similar formula. A formula of songwriting that was popular in the golden age, even by the 60s was falling out, even though that was when he started hitting, you know, there's not many musicals in 1984, new musicals in 1984, the 80s in general, that kind of sound like La Cage Aux Folles.

[18:14] Jess McInally: Um, it seems like an older show than it is to me.

[18:18] Emily Clark: I mean, basically, I feel older music-wise, a lot wise.

[18:22] Jess McInally: Sure, yeah.

[18:22] Emily Clark: The themes in it feel very modernized.

[18:26] Jess McInally: Yeah. I agree.

[18:26] Emily Clark: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But also the music, if you've heard Mame, you've heard what you can probably get. Like, literally look at this. This is literally just the artwork from Mame. Like Hello, Dolly! Like, you hear the best of times is now, and they just sing it over and over and over again, which is what they do in Mame, which is what they do in Hello, Dolly!, is what they do in all those shows. And there's a few other songs in the score that are like that. And it's because by the end of it, you're just like all singing together as an audience. And um, there is a power to that. There is something tangible about that. Um, that is kind of based more on emotion, I think. Um, that is definitely appealing to an audience, especially when you're watching these characters that you really like, um, kind of celebrating themselves. Um, it's infectious.

[19:18] Jess McInally: But I do think a big problem within, uh, many of Jerry Herman's musicals is the second half kind of falls. Like you get to that peak, and then it's like a really quick parabola down.

[19:30] Emily Clark: I don't know if I agree.

[19:32] Jess McInally: Yeah, I, I don't know. I think the second act just, it, it's always just the same formula. It's just like they kind of wrap things up kind of pretty quick.

[19:41] Emily Clark: Yeah. I mean, there's no court case or anything, but I like them bringing in the Rush Limbaugh clone, uh, and then they scold him for being a horrible person or whatever.

[19:51] Jess McInally: Yeah.

[19:52] Emily Clark: And then they do the big dance at the end, and I mean, come on.

[19:55] Jess McInally: So much for tolerant left.

[19:58] Emily Clark: It's fun.

[19:59] Jess McInally: Dude, the tolerant left has never existed.

[20:01] Emily Clark: Yeah, you're right. It is fun.

[20:05] Jess McInally: It is a great, this show is so much fun just in general, and it's just so relaxing. Like the conflict is so like milk thin, like you're just like there's no stress throughout it.

[20:19] Emily Clark: Like the skim of milk.

[20:22] Jess McInally: I think you're using water.

[20:24] Emily Clark: Milk thin.

[20:25] Jess McInally: I love it.

[20:28] Emily Clark: The conflict is milk thin.

[20:31] Jess McInally: I'm so fucking tired.

[20:33] Emily Clark: I mean, again, but that's, um, I think another thing, uh, that makes it kind of like that old familiar style of musical. Um, because that's kind of what musicals used to, uh, musical comedies used to be. That whole, it's not, you're not there, you're not really there for the plot. You're there to watch the songs and watch the dancers and kind of see stuff like that. And not that there's, you're not there for the plot, but I think it pulls from that, um, kind of tradition. Um, it's, it's like, uh, audiences at the time would be seeing something incredibly familiar. The only thing that's like weird about it is that the dancing girls are boys and the main couple are both boys. But it's everything else is kind of the same. Obviously, the, uh, shenanigans wouldn't happen if they weren't both boys, but like it's such a strong political statement though in 1984 to do that.

[21:34] Jess McInally: Yeah, but that's their key, but that's their key to make it a, a kind of everything else around, uh, this couple making it traditional makes it like a good foot in like them doing the song on the sand. You know, Jerry Herman was really worried about how that would land, you know, when they did their out of town tryouts, you know, this couple acting kind of openly romantic, and it turned out it ended up being universal because a lot of old couples have moments like that together. And so that was the way it transcended. Um, I hate saying like I didn't hit you over the head with it, but it didn't. Like it, it was a subtle, um, way to kind of introduce this new normal or this thing that should be a new normal.

Really I think it's really good as political advocacy in that it takes the old formula and it just does this with it, and it doesn't hit you over the head with it, but it does hit you somewhat though, because they introduced the conservative character at the end as the antithesis as like, you know, if you react poorly to this, you're this guy.

[22:36] Emily Clark: You know, yeah.

[22:37] Jess McInally: Uh, and then, and then everybody scolds him and they're like, wow, what a, what a terrible person.

[22:42] Emily Clark: And it helps, it helps that he comes in in the second act too, because you haven't gotten the time to know him. Um, so yeah, you're, it makes it so that he shows up to kind of be a foil to this whole situation.

[22:53] Jess McInally: Yeah.

[22:54] Emily Clark: Mm-hmm. Um, what, where do you sit on Jerry Herman musicals, Emily?

[22:58] Emily Clark: Um, in general, like personally you, I mean I, I know what they are. Like I would never like sit there and be like, oh, I just got, I gotta listen to some Jerry Herman and just like get in my feelings. Like no, like I, I don't think I really, well, okay, when I was younger he's great if you're younger and like again those, those kind of older timeless musicals are great intros to um, kind of the bigger world of musical theater outside of Baby's first Broadway.

[23:30] Jess McInally: Yeah, like outside of like Wicked or the mainstream stuff that like your mom would take you to. Um, and so like I did Hello, Dolly! in seventh grade and so I, I remember listening to it a lot then and I, I really loved it. And you know, I hadn't listened to it in a long time and then I saw the tour um of the revival with Betty Buckley and it was fun to watch it because I was like, yeah, this is, this is funny. Like there's like, there's some really, yeah, there's some good book moments, there's obviously great songs. I still like Elegance is still like one of my favorite, I think it's such a funny song. But like I don't, I, he's not difficult. You don't have to think too hard with Jerry Herman.

[24:10] Emily Clark: Like, and I think that there's merit to that, to the escapism of it all. And it's not pretentious like how like maybe Andrew Lloyd Webber escapism might be. Um, I think it's just kind of like good old, like good old musical theater in a lot of ways.

[24:25] Jess McInally: It's cheese.

[24:26] Emily Clark: It's the cheese and it's the cheese we found it, yeah, we found it.

[24:32] Jess McInally: I, Jerry Herman is very cheesy.

[24:34] Emily Clark: But I, in a, in a, in a good way, I think. I, I like Jerry Herman. I think the musical theater story would be incomplete without him. Um, to kind of write the shows he did, kind of in eras that were post their peak is kind of interesting. I will say my favorite Jerry Herman is just Mack and Mabel. Like that, that's just, I love Mack and Mabel. I love that musical. Um, but then something like Mame never hit with me, but that might also just be because I saw the terrible Lucille Ball movie.

[25:04] Jess McInally: Yeah, I mean, Mame is, Mame is pretty much Hello, Dolly!, but um, I, I, I'm not as into it as I am Hello, Dolly!.

[25:13] Emily Clark: Hello Dolly is probably the one I love the most. Um but I yeah, I think Jerry Herman's great. But Andrew, I think the only other Jerry Herman you've seen is Hello Dolly. How does this compare to Hello Dolly? I feel like I like this one better. I I don't know. That's yeah. I th I think I had more fun with it. Which I don't know. Maybe that says something about me, or maybe not. Who knows? I feel like you just have more fun. Like there's a lot of plot cul-de-sac in Hello Dolly, where it's like, let's just hang out here for a little bit.

[25:48] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, they kind of it it's a longer one, I feel like. This one felt shorter. Although I don't know if it's actually shorter. This one just felt shorter. Hello Dolly has all the uh couples too, all the different pairs that kind of have their own little storylines. This is mostly just focused on um, you know, George Navy. My favorite part of music theater like this is when I don't have to care about what characters are who. Like when there's so when there's so few characters that I can't possibly get confused. Because there's so many shows where it's like, oh boy, they just introduced more characters. Here I go.

[26:27] Emily Clark: Yeah, falsetto's really messed with you. Oh, two more characters that weren't even in Act One? What? Yeah, no, that one I that one I got mad about. Like, who are these people? There's a lot of like, there's a lot of like little, like, fun little supporting characters. Like, if I'd be interested to see if La Cage could could ever be a high school show. I'm sure it has been done at some high school somewhere. But I think you'd have obviously it's like when you have when you do Guys and Dolls, you need a good boy ensemble. Um, but in a completely different way. It would be interesting to see because I feel like there's so many fun little little parts, like all the K-Jells and like um the butler and you know, the parents that don't have to necessarily be like the best singers in the world.

They don't do the heavy lifting singing, but like could have some good one-liners and some good solo lines, but like I think because of like the subject matter air quotes, it probably hasn't been done as much as it could be done.

[27:27] Andrew DeWolf: I'm just thinking of La Cage apology. I don't think schools would do that. No, not junior. Well, like, there's I mean, high schools do Rent. High schools do Le Miz where people are dying all the time. Like, to me, this is I know I mean violence. I mean, violence and sexuality. We know sexuality is way worse than that. And the thing is is that this show doesn't really deal with sexuality, like sex at all. It's camp and drag and an old comfortable with each other married couple. Like.

[27:58] Emily Clark: But yeah, but the entire audience at these high school shows is is the uh is the conservative parents at the end of the show. I do want to say I think the reason why they can get away with Rent is because like the the main like gay character dies, like one of the main gay characters dies, and that kind of it feels it's a I don't know. That show is a horrible message for children.

[28:26] Andrew DeWolf: I haven't seen Grease in so long. Is the message that like 28-year-olds can still go to high school or no?

[28:32] Emily Clark: It's a message of Dear Evan Hansen, Andrew. Yeah, that's I had to see a high school production of Grease a few years ago because some former students of mine ran it, and it was a thing where I sat there and I was like, oh god, uh why do we all just collectively forget how dirty and inappropriate this show is?

[28:52] Andrew DeWolf: It is called Grease, to be fair. What do you think I have no Grease is dirty?

[29:00] Emily Clark: We're gonna do Grease next week. If you ever do, you should get Jeff because Jeff met the creator guy because he did Grease and he's got stories about what a piece of crack.

[29:08] Andrew DeWolf: Can we skip Grease and just do Grease 2?

[29:10] Emily Clark: Yes, I'll bring Jeff on. Somewhere there is a full recording of my high school um performance of Grease.

[29:22] Andrew DeWolf: We can we just review that instead of who are you?

[29:27] Emily Clark: I was Chacha.

[29:29] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, the best dancer at St. Bernadette's.

[29:32] Emily Clark: Yes, I love it. Okay, so when you did it, were you sexy Chacha or like or like dorky Chacha?

[29:39] Andrew DeWolf: I was sexy chaotic.

[29:41] Emily Clark: Okay. Because when Jeff Jeff did we're going off on a tangent, folks. Happy Pride. But like um Jeff did when he Jeff did it back in the day, it was before they kind of started reviving it a lot and kind of changing it to kind of match the movie more. So originally Chacha was supposed to be kind of like uh what we would call an uggo, I suppose. The dumb the whole thing was supposed to be like him being like, ew, I'm dancing with but then that that evolved. So good. You got to be sexy, Chacha. I love it. It was fun.

[30:11] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, yeah. Um, so La Cage. Okay, okay. Speaking speaking of like recordings, um, since now we've got so if we make it to 400 on Patreon, um, we will do a commentary on both Grease Um Grease and My Into the Woods. Oh my god. We will do both of those things. You guys gotta get us the $400 on Patreon. $400 on Patreon on the code. You can review my fiddler on my my fiddler on the roof. It's on YouTube.

[30:39] Emily Clark: Oh, yeah. With Josh Groban. Um, so did we all um did we all make connections to George Hearn being Sweeney Todd or being hot off that Sweeney?

[30:52] Emily Clark: Oh for like a completely different character. That guy's got range, man. The guy's incredible. And I love the fact that he's got like this ungodly deep voice. Like they didn't try to camp him up in a way. I adore his first song, the little more mascara. I love it when he's like everything sparkle beads and plumy plumes and magic. I love it. But it's so great because he starts kind of in a more masculine place, and you almost feel him transition to Zazah. Uh, and then he gets like his vibrato gets a little wider and he gets a little more fabulous, and he's just so great. I love him so much. Incredible, incredible performance. Um, but I do remember like the weird kind of no, we're not really gay interviews at the time where it's like, nope, we're heterosexual men, we're married.

[31:46] Jess McInally: Yeah, I mean, I'm sure they had to do that.

[31:51] Emily Clark: Yeah. Kind of adorable older men, like, nope, nope, nope, but just we're performing.

[31:56] Jess McInally: Yeah.

[31:57] Emily Clark: I found one of the performances online of um Harvey Fierstein doing I Am What I Am. Incredible. And that's so great, man. It's crazy to think how Harvey Fierstein has had this like musical theater career. Um, obviously, like writing musicals. He fixed Newsies and um also just performing in musicals and being really good at it. It's like Carol Channing. It's like, how did this person with this bizarre voice have this Broadway career? But like I miss those days where you people identify. When you just have a presence so good that even if you're not hitting the notes every time, you are hitting the back of the room perfectly.

[32:38] Jess McInally: Yeah.

[32:41] Emily Clark: It's not the most beautiful I am what I am, but it is the most heartbreaking I am what I am.

[32:45] Jess McInally: Yeah.

[32:45] Emily Clark: I love I am what I am because every time I listen to it and he goes, um, he gets to go and open up your closets. I always want to finish it with everything's coming up.

[32:54] Jess McInally: Everything's coming up!

[33:04] Emily Clark: But it's that same vibe. It's that like middle-aged woman belting to the rafters diva moment, but it's just, you know, a guy. I think that's one of the reasons why it hits so hard. It's also just so kind of in that uh an element a part of that drag camp world, anyway. Um yeah.

[33:27] Emily Clark: And that's become uh uh basically uh um anthem for a lot of people in the LGBT community, that song alone. Um but you know what? I feel like we've talked a lot about what we think of this musical. It's time to compare our opinions to those of the theater critics when this show originally came out and uh revivals. Um it's time for breeze.

[33:49] Jess McInally: It's time for previews.

[33:54] Jess McInally: It's time for previews.

[33:56] Andrew DeWolf: The New York Times critic Frank Rich said of the original 1983 production, La Cage Aux Folles, I can't say it.

[34:07] Andrew DeWolf: La Cage Aux Folles.

[34:09] Andrew DeWolf: A full bird cage.

[34:10] Andrew DeWolf: The cage of birds.

[34:12] Andrew DeWolf: La Cage Aux Folles is the first Broadway musical ever to center stage to a homosexual love affair.

[34:19] Andrew DeWolf: But don't go expecting an earthquake.

[34:22] Andrew DeWolf: The show at the palace is the schmaltziest, most old-fashioned major musical Broadway has ever seen since Annie, and it is likely to be just as popular with children of all ages.

[34:36] Jess McInally: Were you hoping for a little more?

[34:38] Andrew DeWolf: I must confess that I was.

[34:40] Andrew DeWolf: The glitz, showmanship, good cheer, and almost unflagging tunefulness of La Cage are all highly enjoyable and welcome, but it is eagerness to please all comers.

[34:52] Andrew DeWolf: The musical is sometimes as shamelessly calculating as a candidate for public office.

[34:59] Emily Clark: I think that's actually pretty spot on, actually.

[35:02] Emily Clark: I think that's why he, I mean, he's right. Like, and I'm sure there were plenty of people, especially at a time, you know, the 1980s, where there was starting to become more representation of gay characters on the stage, albeit more on the play side. I'm sure there were a lot of critics and New York people in the know who were looking for something a little edgier.

[35:26] Emily Clark: So that makes total sense to me. And it's not, and the reason why it lasted so long was because it wasn't. And that's a different kind of side of the coin, I guess.

[35:36] Emily Clark: I feel like at the time, an edgier show probably is not what a mainstream is. You couldn't release A Strange Loop right then.

[35:41] Andrew DeWolf: Um, sorry.

[35:45] Emily Clark: Well, and I mean, A Strange Loop, who knows? Who knows if it's gonna even have kind of super mainstream appeal? Because to me, it's more kind of in that Sunday or like Passing Strange or just those like kind of weirder shows that'll be more like appealing to people like us.

[36:04] Emily Clark: But I really wonder. It's such an amazing show.

[36:09] Andrew DeWolf: There are rumors of a Broadway run for A Strange Loop.

[36:12] Emily Clark: Oh, there has to be. There has to be. It can't possibly be the only best musical to win a Pulitzer and not have a Broadway run. That would be crazy.

[36:20] Andrew DeWolf: It was supposed to go, I think, before ye old COVID hit. I think I would be the first in line. That show's amazing.

[36:27] Andrew DeWolf: Um, previews for upcoming musicals in this month. Um, let's not dive too into that.

[36:36] Jess McInally: I think we kind of talk about what the rest of Frank Rich's think. Do you want to just skip to like Ben Brantley's next one?

[36:41] Andrew DeWolf: Okay, so New York Times, Ben Brantley said of the 2004 revival production, actually, even the most convention-bound theatergoers won't need to fortify themselves with alcohol to remain shock-free through this alternatively garish and pallid production of La Cage, which features a book by Harvey Fierstein and is directed by Jerry Zaks.

[36:46] Andrew DeWolf: La Cage became a hit in 1983 after all as a cheerfully square, family-friendly entertainment in risqué clothing.

[37:22] Andrew DeWolf: It was an old-fashioned celebration of an old-fashioned marriage, which, oh, with the added Philip that the partners both happened to be men and worked in a trans nightclub in Saint-Tropez.

[37:22] Andrew DeWolf: Still, La Cage has the ingredients that tourists have traditionally expected from a big Broadway show, delivered with helpful implicit labels, jokey lines that say laugh here, ballads that say mist up here, and rousing choral numbers like "The Best of Times" that say feel free to clap along with this one.

[38:01] Emily Clark: In La Cage, every dancer emerges as a rye hardy individual from the whipcracking dominatrix to the Nicole Kidman lookalike whose specialty is just to stand there and look beautiful.

[38:14] Andrew DeWolf: Would that the rest of the show were that witty?

[38:21] Emily Clark: Yikes. I mean I feel like the diminishing of Harvey Fierstein's book, which is much more than just like sitcom giggles. I mean, it's some of that in the source. It's kind of the nature of the medium. It's kind of supposed to be that. Um, but you know, if that's not your bag, I could definitely see it being tiring, I guess, for some people.

[38:48] Andrew DeWolf: And especially what was this, the 2004 review? Um yeah, I don't recall how that production was received.

[38:58] Emily Clark: Or there was maybe it just didn't look very good. Maybe it just wasn't well directed. I don't know. Like Gary Beach, who I thought was actually absolutely wonderful in the role of Al Bown. Um, they just really didn't like him. They were like, he's just playing the producers again.

[39:13] Andrew DeWolf: And he was hot off the producers.

[39:16] Emily Clark: Well, I mean, yeah, but that's kind of, I don't know, that's kind of what he does. Like, he, that's kind of his thing. I mean, even his Lumière was kind of like that.

[39:26] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I mean, same with his Tenardi. But when it came to the 2010 production, Ben Brantley is like, you know what? Kelsey Grammar. That's what we needed. That's the recipe this show needed.

[39:39] Emily Clark: It's basically his review. Yo, I saw Kelsey Grammar play Sweeney Todd in the 90s, and he was like notoriously he didn't know any of his lines, and he had his like words on like cue cards in the pit.

[39:54] Andrew DeWolf: That's kind of what he feels like to me doing that part.

[39:57] Emily Clark: I, you know, the best comparison in that performance is, um, do you remember when Anne Hathaway and James Franco performed um at the Oscars posted together?

[40:05] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[40:06] Emily Clark: That's Christine Baranski and Kelsey Grammar up there. Someone trying their best and someone not trying at all.

[40:12] Andrew DeWolf: Exactly. I mean, the reviews, they're pretty intense negative, strangely enough.

[40:20] Emily Clark: Like, I'm surprised at how negative this was considering how much this was embraced by like the public and the tone of the product.

[40:26] Andrew DeWolf: From the original production, you mean?

[40:28] Emily Clark: From all of them. Like the revivals are always negative until Kelsey Grammar got their hands in it.

[40:34] Andrew DeWolf: Were the reviews negative because they're like you gay couple, or is it like this is toothless?

[40:41] Emily Clark: It's just toothless. Like it's definitely not like you gay couple. It's just like, oh come on, we can do better than this.

[40:48] Andrew DeWolf: Broadway.

[40:49] Emily Clark: I mean, that's pretty good. They don't like the cheese. I think that's very interesting though, because, um, cause it does show that, you know, this again, New York theater community, a lot of the reviewers, you know, a lot of gay men making these shows. And then, uh, it's interesting to kind of perpetually kind of want more from this show when it's kind of like it is what it is.

[41:10] Andrew DeWolf: It had to be what it is, I feel like, in order to be that step to get to maybe a more inclusive place that, you know, we're still obviously fighting for, but you know, that's why so many LGBTQ people who were around in the 90s, you know, who are maybe a little more closer to my age or older, you know, have such a fierce connection to Rent.

[41:30] Emily Clark: Um, because, you know, if you, so it, it's that kind of building block thing to me. I don't know. I feel like it's so harmless. I feel like, um, it's not hurting anything. It's not doing anything to set gay people back, in my opinion.

[41:45] Andrew DeWolf: Um, to me, the, the, um, what's the word? Like the way of getting the message across is what makes it, uh, universal and makes it, uh, as like a foot in the door for, for like the normies who might, uh, especially at the time who might be like, ew, gay people, you know.

[42:08] Emily Clark: Um, which is less of a problem every year, you know, knock on wood. So it definitely can seem a little quaint. Um, yeah, I do want to say that this age is even better than most stuff in the early 2000s despite being like nearly 40 years ago.

[42:08] Andrew DeWolf: That is true, and I think again it's because it's, it's, um, telling a certain story. I, uh, it helps that it's again in a drag club where these men have an excuse to kind of be this flamboyant and to be like putting on a show.

[42:08] Emily Clark: Um, so I think that does help and, um, almost the lack of being super specific about, um, I don't know, their relationship. You know, they're in love, they fell in love, they talk, they reminisce and they talk about their relationship, of course, but like because it's kind of universal across any couples, I think that's what makes it so that so many people can, um, are drawn to it. Just a really fun show.

[42:08] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I don't know why people are, or at least not people, but critics are, well it seems dragging on it a little bit. So I don't know, it seems like it's kind of more snooty people being like we need something edgier and it's like you don't always need something.

[42:08] Emily Clark: You don't, and obviously it was a big ol' hit. Like, there's plenty of musicals that the critics don't love that are beloved by audiences, and you know, this show has had so many revivals and so many productions and it's a great regional theater show and a good community theater show.

[43:45] Andrew DeWolf: Like you could do it in a lot of places if you have a good costume budget.

[43:50] Emily Clark: Also, it's just fun.

[43:51] Andrew DeWolf: What's wrong with fun?

[43:53] Emily Clark: There's nothing wrong with fun.

[43:54] Andrew DeWolf: And the songs are good.

[43:55] Emily Clark: They're good. You know, they're not dour. They're not um preachy.

[44:00] Andrew DeWolf: Uh, they're all triumphant and fun.

[44:02] Emily Clark: And yeah, like the biggest message song is kind of is a perfect act one finale.

[44:09] Andrew DeWolf: Um, that the audience, you know, you stand up and applaud at the end of.

[44:13] Emily Clark: And it leaves you wondering what's gonna happen next, which I think is what you want from an act one finale.

[44:18] Andrew DeWolf: Speaking of wondering what's gonna happen next, how about we go into a mid-show and leave people wondering what's gonna happen next?

[44:24] Emily Clark: Oh well, transition expert.

[44:28] Andrew DeWolf: Ah right, we'll be back in a bit. Enjoy these commercials.

[44:38] Andrew DeWolf: Hey guys, sorry to interrupt you in the middle of the show, but we've got a shish sh at you. Andrew, tell us about Patreon.

[44:45] Emily Clark: Patreon is where you can go if you'd like to, you know, donate a little bit to us and help us out and get some extra content while you're at it. You know, you can see us on video right now. We got um extra podcasts, we got commentaries, you know, all sorts of cool stuff.

[45:02] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, so many school stuff. Um, our current patrons are Terry Needleman, John Donna, Layton Accles, Danielle Rennex, Just the Stampede, Ewan Cassidy, Taskeer, Fire September, Monica Thoreau, Mina Maniri, Brent Black, Haley Murray, B Way Flicks, Lathaniel, Stacey Coomb, Joseph Heavens Green, Carrie Ahern, Mary Louis Choquette, John Finales, Heck Uh, Go by Elijah Now, Russ Walker, Musical Hell, Emily Gracie, Andrew Van Barsen, Tablan, Kyle Summers, Jen Ace, Christina Francis, Scootin, the Technicolor Dreamcoat, Liz Lim, Cory Wilmarth, Alison Stellard, nothing is certain except Beth and Taxes, John Van Alz, Desbian, Ren Cullen, Wait in the Wings, Spectacle Machine, Jacob Stroop, Raphael Martinez Salaz, Robert Benjamin, Rachel T, Jessica T, Genevieve Hartnett, Cass, Mitchell Young, Chai Teacup, Hayden Wilder, Katie McDonough, Stackis, Timothy Keyes, Jeffrey Machado, Jacuse, Tin Van Essen, Jesse Taylor, R. Elliot, Chris Marcote, Alexandria Sing, Mimu, Kiji, Marie Anastasio, Trevor Lopez, and Sierra Moncree.

[45:57] Emily Clark: They give us a little extra financial support that helps us keep the lights on here at Musicals with Cheese. If you'd like to join them in supporting us and get tons of fun perks, such as page-only commentaries, our episode today early, video episodes where you can see Emily Clark's face right now, and she's like doing backflips, she's dancing.

[46:11] Andrew DeWolf: Oh my god, look at that. What is she doing?

[46:14] Emily Clark: I can see right on the tip of your lips. I can see it right now that you want to tell them to join our Patreon.

[46:18] Andrew DeWolf: I can just see it.

[46:20] Emily Clark: Join the Patreon.

[46:21] Andrew DeWolf: I got her to say it! I got her to do it! Free advertising. Thank you.

[46:27] Emily Clark: Um, all right, guys, let's get on back to the show.

[46:31] Andrew DeWolf: The best part is they still have more ads to listen to.

[46:42] Emily Clark: When life is a real bitch again, and my old sense of humor has up and gone.

[46:55] Andrew DeWolf: It's time for the big switch again.

[47:01] Emily Clark: I put a little more mascara when I count my crows feet again, and tire up this perpetual marathon.

[47:19] Andrew DeWolf: I put down the John seat again.

[47:26] Emily Clark: And put a little more mascara on. Let's talk about Albin's I Want song, um, mascara or a little more mascara, which is incredible.

[47:39] Andrew DeWolf: And also frames Albin as the central character, the main character here.

[47:46] Emily Clark: Definitely. Um, I love that moment. Um, I love him, you know, in front of his vanity. Um, it's yeah, it, I mean, it's like Dolly coming out and doing I put my hand in. It's like here's, here's who I am, here's what I'm about, here's uh where I stay.

[48:06] Andrew DeWolf: You know exactly um who he is uh by that song.

[48:12] Emily Clark: And um, you know, me, my, my, uh, you know, gonna be 40 in a few years ass can really relate to a lot of this song. This whole like I suck it in, I put some makeup on, and then like, hey, I can take on the world. So I think that's uh pretty fun, relatable feeling.

[48:31] Andrew DeWolf: I like the build the song has as well.

[48:33] Emily Clark: Yeah. It's, I think it's really good.

[48:37] Andrew DeWolf: And visually the build too, like the transformation on stage.

[48:41] Emily Clark: And am I just imagining like if you get one of those things wrong, like in the setup of yourself, you're just kinda fucked for the rest of the song, and like that, that is a physical transformation.

[48:51] Andrew DeWolf: Um, and it's incredible.

[48:54] Emily Clark: Yeah, I, I really love that song.

[48:57] Andrew DeWolf: Um, yeah.

[48:59] Emily Clark: I can't think of another I want song that really functions in this same way.

[49:04] Andrew DeWolf: Well, I mean, I don't even know if it's an I want song because I mean I guess it's just, it's more like this is what I, this is what I do.

[49:12] Emily Clark: This is the, this is the I am song.

[49:15] Andrew DeWolf: I am not quite I am what I am, but like, um, because it's, it's him just being like this is my routine, uh, to this is how I get into this look that you see me and have, and then you kind of just know who the character is, yeah, you know, through that through that moment and through that song.

[49:34] Emily Clark: Um, yeah, it doesn't really need to be an I want song because none of the characters necessarily want anything except for the son, I guess, who wants them to pretend to be something they aren't.

[49:47] Andrew DeWolf: I think it's different too sometimes when your characters are um middle-aged or, you know, kind of at less of like an ingenue place, um, because they're very, um, they're very happy with their lives.

[50:00] Emily Clark: They're very settled in their lives, and the shenanigans come from, you know, trying to accommodate their kid.

[50:06] Andrew DeWolf: Um, and uh, yeah, I was just thinking the son, the son kind of has an I want song. A lot of their stuff is like this is who we are, this is um, or looking back, or you know, reminiscent type songs.

[50:22] Emily Clark: Like even the best of times is now a lot of um like wistful and nostalgic kind of tunes almost, which I like a lot.

[50:33] Jess McInally: Um, I guess we should talk about "With Anne on My Arm" next, then.

[50:37] Jess McInally: Um, and also the "With You on My Arm," like much cuter reprise right afterwards.

[50:45] Emily Clark: Who else can make me feel like I'm handsome and tall?

[50:52] Emily Clark: Who else can make me feel I'm on top of it all?

[50:59] Emily Clark: I found a combination that works like a charm.

[51:05] Emily Clark: I'm simply a man who walks on the stars whenever it's on my arm.

[51:21] Emily Clark: Whenever it's you, I am here.

[51:25] Emily Clark: Whenever it's you, I will see.

[51:28] Emily Clark: Whenever it's you on.

[51:31] Emily Clark: Whenever it's you on.

[51:35] Emily Clark: Whenever it's you.

[51:50] Jess McInally: That, that, those both of those songs are just like that old school kind of musical theater where it really is like hitting you over the head with like kind of the same thing over and over again.

[52:00] Jess McInally: Um, but then it makes it, I think, a little more triumphant when you see um George and Albin do "With You on My Arm" and you know they're dancing in there.

[52:09] Jess McInally: But I, the thing about, I, here's more what bothers me a little bit about this musical.

[52:16] Jess McInally: Um, everything that Jean Michel um describes Anne as is very superficial.

[52:21] Jess McInally: She makes me feel handsome and tall and that I'm charming and all that.

[52:25] Jess McInally: Whereas that means nothing to people that just met each other.

[52:29] Jess McInally: Um, and if you're younger, it kinda maybe it means something to a lot of folks.

[52:33] Jess McInally: When that's younger, that means a lot less than when you're a little older, been with each other 20 years, and that's still true.

[52:39] Emily Clark: Yeah.

[52:39] Jess McInally: So that immediate juxtaposition is super like heartstring pulling.

[52:44] Emily Clark: Yeah, and I think there's a difference when you are, you know, in your early twenties, and a lot of the, again, it's an old musical trope.

[52:51] Emily Clark: Like I've met this girl and I've fallen in love and we're gonna get married, you know, parents be damned.

[52:57] Emily Clark: And I think that is a relatable thing um as the sub as the leads of a musical.

[53:03] Emily Clark: And it is fun to get it from kind of the parents' perspective of being like, okay, well, you're gonna do this thing, so let's figure out how we make this happen.

[53:13] Emily Clark: Um, because we're supportive.

[53:15] Emily Clark: And I think that's kind of an interesting take.

[53:18] Jess McInally: As four people who are not parents, and I don't think any of us really intends to be anytime soon.

[53:23] Jess McInally: Um, what would we rearrange our entire lives for kids that we don't intend to have?

[53:29] Emily Clark: I can't imagine myself doing that.

[53:31] Emily Clark: I'd be like, no, you little shit.

[53:33] Emily Clark: Don't bring them then.

[53:34] Jess McInally: No, I, I, I well there, I could say my mom mentioned that I saw her on Memorial Day, and she kind of made some passing comment about it.

[53:44] Jess McInally: I know that my mom would go through any fucking shenanigans I wanted if I was like this really means something to me.

[53:50] Jess McInally: I know in a heartbeat she would do it, even if she didn't understand it.

[53:54] Emily Clark: Um, so I think it's actually pretty relatable.

[53:58] Emily Clark: I think there's, I think it's kind of more common than one would think.

[54:02] Emily Clark: And um, you know, we, I think we would hope that most of our parents or parents in the world in general, hopefully, would be supportive of their kids' nonsense, even if they know their kids' nonsense might be a passing phase, or just like not.

[54:16] Emily Clark: You know, he's just got a girl he likes since like one night trying to convince these people, you know.

[54:20] Jess McInally: It, it, it, the stakes aren't so high in this show, which again I think.

[54:26] Jess McInally: I think what's a little bit makes him the bad guy.

[54:30] Jess McInally: The son is that he wants his mom who has never really interacted with him at all to come.

[54:36] Emily Clark: Yeah.

[54:36] Jess McInally: And his other father to just pretend he doesn't exist, essentially.

[54:41] Emily Clark: Which that's like, okay.

[54:43] Emily Clark: That's a little bit far, don't you think?

[54:46] Jess McInally: It's a harsh lesson.

[54:47] Jess McInally: And you know, it makes me kind of wonder because like we're talking about a musical, sorry, a movie that's from the 70s and a play that's from the 70s and a musical in the 1980s.

[54:57] Jess McInally: How non-existent same-sex parent representation was in media.

[55:05] Jess McInally: So I almost kind of look, we wouldn't have conflict if the son didn't do this stuff and then he learns his lesson at the end.

[55:11] Emily Clark: Um, however, I think it is really interesting because like how is he supposed to act?

[55:17] Emily Clark: Like how is this obviously this isn't right that he does this, but it's like he's kind of like, what other option do I have?

[55:25] Jess McInally: Um, and the other option is like, don't do it.

[55:28] Jess McInally: But I don't know.

[55:29] Jess McInally: I just think it's an interesting kind of thought experiment.

[55:31] Jess McInally: Like, what do kids from this era who have same-sex parents like how much are they e, how, how much do you even talk about it at all?

[55:41] Emily Clark: Um, I think is kind of an interesting thought thing.

[55:46] Emily Clark: Because like I knew, I definitely knew kids growing up who had same-sex parents, but it was a thing that we didn't really like definitely not a thing like that.

[55:54] Emily Clark: My parents talked to me about until I got older.

[55:56] Emily Clark: I just thought, oh, yes, you know, my friend's mom and my friend's mom's best friend.

[56:01] Jess McInally: Um, yeah, I, I don't know.

[56:03] Jess McInally: I think it's a good um, I guess template for kids who might be of same-sex parents to teach them what the lesson is, like what the right thing to do is.

[56:15] Emily Clark: There is a scene in "The Birdcage" that I wish was in "La Cage," um, because it is probably one of Robin Williams' best delivered lines I've ever seen.

[56:24] Emily Clark: Where it's like, I, I had to spend like 10 years of my life trying to figure out who that who I was, and I'm not gonna go back pretending that I'm not this person.

[56:32] Emily Clark: Fuck your, fuck the senator.

[56:34] Emily Clark: I don't give a damn what he thinks.

[56:35] Jess McInally: Yeah, and it's exactly, I want that moment so badly for George or Albin to have in this movie.

[56:42] Jess McInally: I just really want someone to be like, you know what?

[56:44] Jess McInally: Fuck you, kid.

[56:45] Jess McInally: Just, uh, even for a brief moment where it's like it took me a while to figure myself out, and you're gonna throw me back in.

[56:52] Emily Clark: Well, I think that's kind of what the end of "I Am What I Am" is, because I think it was that confrontation with him right before that.

[56:58] Emily Clark: And then that song, that other song, um, what is it?

[57:02] Jess McInally: Uh, "Look Over There."

[57:05] Emily Clark: That's what that song is.

[57:06] Emily Clark: Um, that's George being like, no one has loved you like this, you know, like this person has loved you like a parent.

[57:15] Emily Clark: And uh, I think that's an, and then it's very sweet when he reprises and kind of apologizes.

[57:19] Jess McInally: So yeah, I think, I think it's more like um, I don't know, like a morality tale almost in that sense, or it's giving you a good archetype to teach you a lesson.

[57:29] Jess McInally: Because then kids of gay parents can watch it with their gay parents, or kids of any parents really can watch it and go, that's not right that the son's doing this.

[57:37] Emily Clark: And then, yeah.

[57:39] Jess McInally: I like it.

[57:41] Emily Clark: Incredible.

[57:42] Jess McInally: All right, we still have songs to talk about.

[57:43] Jess McInally: We, we, I don't know how we went down this rabbit.

[57:45] Jess McInally: I'm not against it.

[57:46] Jess McInally: I love rabbit holes so much.

[57:48] Jess McInally: Um, let's talk about "Song on the Sand."

[57:54] Emily Clark: I believe it was early September.

[57:59] Emily Clark: Through the crush of the waves, I could tell that the words were romantic.

[58:07] Emily Clark: Something about sharing.

[58:10] Emily Clark: Something about years race along.

[58:19] Emily Clark: I still think of our song on the sand.

[58:25] Emily Clark: And I still try and search for the words I can barely remember.

[58:34] Emily Clark: Though the time tumbles by there is one thing that I am forever.

[59:00] Jess McInally: Oh, that's such a beautiful song.

[59:03] Jess McInally: Like it's the first like um same-sex um romance song that I think ever hit Broadway.

[59:09] Jess McInally: Maybe I'm wrong here, but it's the first one I can think of.

[59:11] Emily Clark: It's the first explicitly.

[59:13] Emily Clark: That's for sure.

[59:14] Jess McInally: A few interpretive ones.

[59:16] Jess McInally: Yeah, it's not like exactly bosom buddies, but um, yeah, and um, it's sweet because I, I don't know, I love those kind of um middle-aged couple like reminiscing about this time that we had, and actually, I think anyone does it where you don't remember exactly the specifics, but you remember like the feeling of it.

[59:36] Jess McInally: Again, another kind of universal thing that I think kind of um highlights kind of the romance that they still have between them, and also the harmonies.

[59:36] Emily Clark: The harmonies.

[59:47] Jess McInally: Mm-hmm.

[59:48] Jess McInally: So gorgeous.

[59:49] Jess McInally: Um, probably like one of the chillest songs in a very bombastic musical where they kind of take a moment like, let's just talk.

[59:57] Emily Clark: Let's reminisce for a moment.

[59:59] Jess McInally: Yeah.

[1:00:01] Jess McInally: Good to have that though.

[1:00:02] Jess McInally: Yeah, then you have the anthem song "I Am What I Am," where everyone knows this.

[1:00:06] Jess McInally: Even if you've never seen the show, you know what the song is.

[1:00:08] Jess McInally: You've heard it a thousand times in ten different things.

[1:00:11] Jess McInally: I'm sure Andrew's even heard it a couple times before this.

[1:00:14] Andrew DeWolf: Probably.

[1:00:14] Jess McInally: That I want to have a little pride in my world.

[1:00:26] Jess McInally: And it's not a place I have to hide in.

[1:00:39] Jess McInally: Hey, world, I am what I am.

[1:00:47] Jess McInally: I am what I am.

[1:00:50] Jess McInally: I don't want praise.

[1:00:53] Jess McInally: I don't want pity.

[1:00:56] Jess McInally: I bang my own drum.

[1:01:00] Jess McInally: Song take its noise.

[1:01:02] Jess McInally: I think it's pretty.

[1:01:05] Jess McInally: And so what?

[1:01:07] Jess McInally: If I love each feather and each bangle, why not try to see things from a different angle?

[1:01:16] Jess McInally: Life is a sham till you can shout about my life.

[1:01:26] Jess McInally: It is pretty great how the opening number is "We Are What We Are," and it's kind of setting up kind of a little parallel, a kind of winky cutesy parallel.

[1:01:35] Jess McInally: Um, it's kind of like presenting it to you like guess what we are and then at the end of the act, it's like, no, I'm out here and I'm screaming it, you know, to the balcony.

[1:01:46] Jess McInally: Um, and I think that's a pretty cool um, again, it's kind of subtle way through character growth, not preaching, um, to kind of get an important message across.

[1:01:57] Emily Clark: Yeah.

[1:01:58] Jess McInally: And it's probably one of the top 10 best act one finales ever.

[1:02:02] Emily Clark: Yo, I love a good act one finale, and this is definitely one of the most powerful.

[1:02:07] Emily Clark: And again, like in an era of the AIDS epidemic where the Broadway community was just being completely just losing people left and right, to have that kind of moment, that kind of catharsis, I think was really important.

[1:02:22] Jess McInally: And I think that wraps us up.

[1:02:25] Jess McInally: What else can we end on?

[1:02:26] Jess McInally: But "I Am What I Am," which is a great message for this entire show.

[1:02:30] Emily Clark: Um, wait, but what about the song "Masculinity"?

[1:02:33] Jess McInally: Oh shit, yeah.

[1:02:35] Jess McInally: I love that song, but it's a farce.

[1:02:37] Jess McInally: It's a goofy goober song.

[1:02:39] Emily Clark: Again, that is literally a scene from "The Birdcage" where he's like having like where like Nathan Lane is walking with the sandwich, and sorry, Nathan Lane, that movie is so good.

[1:02:49] Jess McInally: Um, but I also was thinking about how their little cocktail song, again, just kind of it's that great partner song thing where every character has a little theme, very, very traditional from "Fiddler."

[1:03:04] Emily Clark: Every character has a little song, and then it builds so that they're all singing it at the same time. Just a good standard classic um kind of trope that works really well.

[1:03:15] Jess McInally: A hundred percent. I just wanted to bring that up. Masculinity is so much fun.

[1:03:19] Andrew DeWolf: It's a goofy goob song. Um I want masculine toast and masculine butter. I need to walk like John Wayne.

[1:03:25] Emily Clark: It's so funny. Oh my gosh. Yeah, it's pretty. I am walking like John Wayne, but if he was a little girl.

[1:03:31] Jess McInally: Yeah. Actually, it's perfect. I just never realized John Wayne walked like that.

[1:03:35] Emily Clark: Um I was I was reading online that um Jerry Herman pretty much quit writing um, or actually, I was reading one of my books about it. Uh he kind of quit writing new musicals after this because he was sick of everyone constantly trying to like compare him to Sondheim, which seems weird to me.

[1:03:53] Jess McInally: But the thing is, did Sondheim ever comment on that side of it? I feel like Sondheim never comments on any other composer to be honest, negative or positive.

[1:04:02] Emily Clark: Well, um God. I read something and I can't remember exactly what it was. I was reading something a few years ago, and I remember it might have been the Fosse biography, or I like kind of underlined it, and it was Sondheim being extremely casually bitchy about Fossey. He was like, I don't know, he saw Folles, and then he was like, Oh, I want to do that, and then he wrote this show.

[1:04:27] Jess McInally: And I was like, what? But I don't think Sondheim ever commented on Jerry Herman because they're I think they came up at the same time, obviously, and obviously and again, this is the year where they kind of went head to head, and Jerry Herman gave that Tony of Words except in speech where he's like, the good old there's been a rumor for a long time that the good old fashioned musical style is out of fashion. Well, this is to tell you that it's still here.

[1:04:51] Emily Clark: And it's like a good old hummable song can get you through a mite.

[1:04:55] Jess McInally: I know. I was like, mmm, I see that shade, I see a little bit of that shade.

[1:04:59] Emily Clark: It's okay. Cut the Sondheim and the audience biting his lip.

[1:05:02] Jess McInally: I know. Well, but it's so funny because he kind of kept comparing himself to him, and then he kind of said, uh, after La Cage, which was the ultimate of them being compared because of the same show of shows going up the same season, he kind of was like, I'm done with this. And he didn't really write any new shows, like ever.

[1:05:22] Emily Clark: But he's a legend that Jerry Herman.

[1:05:26] Jess McInally: But Sondheim is kind of bitchy.

[1:05:27] Emily Clark: He's kind of bitchy.

[1:05:29] Jess McInally: But the uh when you talked with Haley St. James last week, briefly, about whether or not Sondheim and Bill Finn have ever sat down and had a conversation or commented on each other's work.

[1:05:39] Emily Clark: And I don't think they ever have.

[1:05:41] Jess McInally: No, I think Jerry Herman was one of the few musical theater composers who was actually pretty open about being gay. Um he had a partner, you know, he was always kind of out and proud about it. And then you think of like so many men in musical theater history who um were gay who kind of couldn't be. You know, Lorenz Hart drank himself to death because he couldn't be out.

[1:06:02] Emily Clark: Um, and uh uh Sondheim has always everyone knows Sondheim is gay, but he's his private life has always been an incredible enigma. I've only heard rumors over the years.

[1:06:11] Jess McInally: Um He's dating a lot of men much younger than him.

[1:06:16] Emily Clark: Yeah, yeah. And I've heard a lot about his sex dungeon, but that's it.

[1:06:19] Jess McInally: Um here he has a average size penis that doesn't get erect very easily from like some like book. Um someone had sex with Sondheim and wrote about it in a book.

[1:06:29] Emily Clark: That's insane. Very strange. But that's the thing, it's like Jerry Herman has always been kind of like very out there. He's like very much like the chatty Kathy, the very much okay with the schmoozing, um, and the Broadway of it all.

[1:06:42] Jess McInally: Whereas Sondheim, you know, he's the more introspective and you know mysterious and definitely like hold his clo cards close to the vest type guy.

[1:06:52] Emily Clark: Um and their sound is completely night and day.

[1:06:57] Jess McInally: Like they're just completely different songwriters.

[1:07:00] Emily Clark: So it is interesting kind of to compare them just because they came up at the same time, even though there's not really I mean I guess they both write middle-aged women really well.

[1:07:10] Jess McInally: And they both worked with Arthur Lawrence and all that.

[1:07:12] Emily Clark: They both worked with Arthur Lawrence for sure.

[1:07:15] Jess McInally: But speaking of move different styles, um, we gotta wrap this up.

[1:07:21] Emily Clark: I didn't have a transition ready.

[1:07:29] Jess McInally: You're up.

[1:07:30] Emily Clark: How high can I rate it?

[1:07:31] Jess McInally: As high a cheese as you want.

[1:07:33] Emily Clark: Oh, okay. I mean, it's definitely like a if we're on a scale of you know one to ten, it's definitely a ten in the cheese factor, but it's it's like the best kind of musical cheese. It it it's it's campy, it's fun, it's breezy, it's actually a really good family show in a lot of ways. Like, really every you can go with your whole family, every single member of your family, and someone will get something out of it.

[1:07:59] Jess McInally: And those are important to have. Um, and it's a great kind of mainstream gateway musical for people who maybe don't know much about the LGBTQ community. This is a really mainstreamy, easy to swallow uh kind of way to help them know that that our LGBTQ brothers and sisters and non-binaries are people.

[1:08:28] Emily Clark: So it's a great musical. I love La Cage. Ten cheeses, but but delicious cheese. Like just freaking great cheese.

[1:08:35] Jess McInally: What's your favorite cheese?

[1:08:37] Emily Clark: What's my favorite cheese? Like in it?

[1:08:39] Jess McInally: Oh no, just address your favorite cheese out.

[1:08:41] Emily Clark: Oh, just my favorite cheese. I like a good sharp cheddar.

[1:08:44] Jess McInally: Hell yeah. That's a good one.

[1:08:49] Andrew DeWolf: Alright. Andrew, you're up next. Your overall thoughts and cheese rating.

[1:08:54] Andrew DeWolf: Uh I had a lot of fun with this show. It's a very, very easy watch. Uh very fun. Good dancing. I don't know. I had a good time with it. Um I'm sure that you will as well if you check it out. That's all I can say. It's good. There's no reason not to check it out. I want to give it a uh Camembert, which is a French cheese, and it's milky. Like milky thin.

[1:09:28] Jess McInally: Uh Umbre, what do you think of our discussion and your rating of that?

[1:09:33] Emily Clark: Fantastic. I am so happy that we had Emily on the show finally. I don't think she's been on since you started.

[1:09:42] Jess McInally: Yeah.

[1:09:42] Emily Clark: So I am so happy we finally got to have her on. It was it sounds like a very fun show. I'm I want to go watch it now because of this discussion.

[1:09:52] Jess McInally: Um so I'm gonna give it a French cheese, kind of like Andrew, and I'm going to give it a Brie de Meaux.

[1:10:02] Emily Clark: Which is just a cheese that I could pronounce.

[1:10:05] Jess McInally: And your name's Brie.

[1:10:07] Emily Clark: And my name is Brie. Sounds really good. Um, I I think this is like the perfect kind of cheese. This is like uh so much fun. So I enjoyed it.

[1:10:18] Jess McInally: I had a smile on my face the entire time. I'm not gonna think about it a ton after it's done, not gonna lie. Aside from like, oh, there's some great performances by XYZ actor. I'm like, oh, that moment made me feel a little wistful and happy, but I'm not gonna be like, oh my god, I need to rewatch La Cage.

[1:10:36] Emily Clark: Um so with that, there's only one cheese ready I can give it, and that is cheese on toast. Because you gotta pretend it's masculine toast and masculine mod.

[1:10:48] Jess McInally: And on that note, Emily, thank you so much for joining us. You are one of the most wonderful people I've ever gotten a chance to meet. I am so lucky I know you. I love you so much.

[1:10:48] Emily Clark: Thank you so much. I love you guys. Thank you for having me on again. It's so much fun. I love popping on and talking about musicals and stuff with you.

[1:11:06] Jess McInally: Yes, you are so smart. You are a wealth of knowledge and a wealth of humor and kindness. I can't wait to have you on again. Please promote all of your stuff that you have because you've got a ton.

[1:11:15] Emily Clark: Oh, yes. Okay. So um I am excuse me. I am Emily A. B. Clark on Twitter and Instagram and uh TikTok. And uh trying it. And uh you can find my uh show Stealing Focus on YouTube.

[1:11:33] Emily Clark: Um I talk about musical theater just like these guys. Um focus. Better no, I'm focusing on like reviews and history lessons, and I'm going to grad school for musical theater history right now.

[1:11:45] Emily Clark: Um, so I'm gonna get even better at it, I promise. And um, you can find me also on Patreon uh at Stealing Focus, and uh yeah, come find me.

[1:11:54] Jess McInally: And do you have any other podcasts that you happen to do?

[1:11:57] Emily Clark: Uh yeah, I don't love you. So uh I'm also on the Dear Friends podcast with Jess, so uh yeah, we take advice uh from listeners and kind of give musical theater suggestions as well uh with our advice and stories, and it's a lot of fun. So you should check out Dear Friends for sure.

[1:12:16] Jess McInally: Mm-hmm. And if you guys are gonna go check out Stealing Focus, you guys have to watch the Broadway during the blacklist video. It is like one of my favorite pieces of musical theater content released in the last like five years.

[1:12:29] Emily Clark: It is an incredible video essay. I want more video essays to be made like this to me.

[1:12:34] Jess McInally: That's my goal. I'm turning a lot of my I'm gonna turn my big research paper into a video or two. So that's gonna be my my project now that summer is coming and you know school is done, and I can actually like do that stuff.

[1:12:47] Emily Clark: So let me just gush for a little bit longer because um I'm sick of like white guy narrates over a video and just like and then this happened, and oh, and then we won't where you m have this energy, the stylization, this full actor acted out segments.

[1:13:03] Jess McInally: My god, it is better than most videos out there. You are doing the Lord's work, Emily, and I can't wait to see more.

[1:13:09] Emily Clark: Thank you. It doesn't it doesn't hurt when you have a puppet best friend to play Arthur Miller.

[1:13:14] Jess McInally: So wonderful, wonderful stuff. And you know what else is wonderful, Andrew?

[1:13:21] Andrew DeWolf: What's that?

[1:13:22] Jess McInally: Our patrons. Thank you guys for watching. Please follow us on iTunes Spotify, Stitcher Musicals with Cheese, leave us a review. We haven't gotten a review this month. Please. We we want more reviews.

[1:13:31] Andrew DeWolf: Um follow us on Twitter at Cheesy Musicals. We're on Patreon Musicals with Cheese, Instagram Musicals with Cheese, YouTube page Musicals with Cheese, Patreon only Podcast is Patreon with Cheese. We do stuff there.

[1:13:39] Jess McInally: Um our emails musicaltheatrelives@gmail.com. Our title card is created by the amazing Jolene Casco. Go send her some love at Jolene Casco.

[1:13:48] Andrew DeWolf: Our keeper of the cheese is Juliet Antonio. We love you so much.

[1:13:50] Jess McInally: Juliet, um, put some emojis by our cheese ratings this week. They're fun.

[1:13:54] Andrew DeWolf: Um, this show is produced by the wonderful one of my greatest friends of all time. I love her to death, Brianna Jones.

[1:14:02] Jess McInally: Thank you for doing this every week, Bree. We love you so much. Um, thank you to the Broadway Podcast Network for having us on the platform and for not kicking us off for cyberbullying Ben Plaid.

[1:14:11] Andrew DeWolf: Um, is there anything else we want to say before we wrap this up?

[1:14:14] Jess McInally: Uh I challenge Meatloaf to a dance off.

[1:14:20] Andrew DeWolf: He'd win.

[1:14:21] Jess McInally: He probably would.

[1:14:24] Andrew DeWolf: I don't think at this age anymore.

[1:14:27] Jess McInally: What an asshole.

[1:14:29] Andrew DeWolf: That's one of the fucking wackiest things that's ever happened, right?

[1:14:33] Jess McInally: I I had a lot of fun with Meat Loaf. Me and Meatloaf are friends now.

[1:14:39] Andrew DeWolf: We made up.

[1:14:40] Jess McInally: We made out. It's all good. In fact, you should all DM him and just bring up Andrew.

[1:14:46] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, do it right now.

[1:14:48] Jess McInally: Don't do that.

[1:14:48] Andrew DeWolf: Don't please don't do that.

[1:14:50] Jess McInally: I don't care if you do that. Didn't they kick him off Facebook?

[1:14:54] Andrew DeWolf: That's what they said.

[1:14:55] Jess McInally: No, he's still on there. He made a post about the 1619 project or something recently.

[1:15:01] Andrew DeWolf: I'm sure it was positive and well thought out.

[1:15:03] Jess McInally: He said it was a book.

[1:15:07] Andrew DeWolf: And that's all the political insight we all know Meatloaf has.

[1:15:14] Jess McInally: Alright. We'll see you next time on Musicals with Cheese.

[1:15:18] All: Woo-woo.

[1:15:25] ♪ Musical number: "I Am What I Am" — performed by Emily Clark ♪