This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Leah Walsh: Hi, and welcome to The Compass, the podcast documenting the struggles of life as an artist.

[0:05] Leah Walsh: I'm Leah Walsh.

[0:07] Leah Walsh: I'm so happy today to be talking with Jude Sandy.

[0:10] Leah Walsh: He is an actor, a dancer, such a warm and generous person.

[0:14] Leah Walsh: And I always come away from conversations with him feeling inspired and renewed.

[0:19] Leah Walsh: He always puts things in perspective for me in a really wonderful way.

[0:39] Jude Sandy: Well, thank you so much for coming and talking with me.

[0:42] Jude Sandy: Oh wow.

[0:43] Jude Sandy: It's a pleasure to be with you.

[0:44] Jude Sandy: I really appreciate it.

[0:48] Jude Sandy: Um I love that no one else knows this setup that I have.

[0:53] Jude Sandy: The corner.

[0:54] Jude Sandy: It's in the corner of my bedroom.

[0:55] Jude Sandy: It's very tiny.

[0:56] Jude Sandy: It's a beautiful, cozy little cave right here.

[0:59] Jude Sandy: I have kindly folded myself into my little story.

[1:05] Leah Walsh: Good.

[1:06] Leah Walsh: Exactly as it should be.

[1:08] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[1:09] Leah Walsh: So what is the dark side to you and how do you keep yourself from going there as an artist?

[1:15] Jude Sandy: Oh, baby.

[1:17] Jude Sandy: Just start out with the biggest.

[1:20] Jude Sandy: Okay.

[1:20] Jude Sandy: Um, I think, well, for me, the dark side is it's for me, it's very circumstantial and it's it is caught up in my work in as much as um my work is reflective of my life.

[1:38] Jude Sandy: Um a lot of why I'm an artist has to do with my experience as as as as a person uh growing up in a very specific cultural um milieu.

[1:51] Jude Sandy: And um uh uh as a as a young gay boy in the West Indies um growing up Catholic um very faithfully Catholic um um and having really intense um spiritual connection with my religious practice and therefore with the religious community in which that practice um played out at the same time knowing that I was homosexual from a very very early age and beginning to understand from a very early age that um that that was considered abominable um and and uh worthy of persecution by the people that were around me um the people that were reflections of myself you know you l you live in a society and the people around you are reflections of you um and and and they are you you know in a kind of a way um so I think that set off a kind of internal questioning um that made me want to be an artist and someone who engages questions about what it means to be human um and and questions about our purpose um as individuals and as members of larger whole um and and so I think that when when the dark side starts to creep uh it it's very much about those kinds of questions and and you know we we certainly l work in a profession that first of all engages us on so many levels um and and engages our humanity in such intimate and um and and vulnerable ways um and that's both the huge reward and and the incredible danger of what we do that there's a certain kind of masochism that's involved um in an in exposing ourselves um in that way and um so for me the the dark side tends to come come as a question of purpose and being um that is am I being authentic um to to those things and and am I being authentic to a a I think a a sense of purpose that I found um for myself which was about continuing along the path of that questioning um questioning myself questioning the society in which I live questioning the way we establish the values that we that that we um pursue um and that we prosecute um and um and and and really kind of pushing a conversation about those things so and and we work in in an industry that is about entertainment right which is a whole other side of it yeah yeah yeah yeah and um for me it's often uh trying to figure out a balance between those two things, you know, um that that what we what we do is part of an industry.

[5:24] Leah Walsh: Right.

[5:25] Jude Sandy: Um and that we do operate certainly as New York artists um as part of an industry and and how do you try to hold on to some sort of um integrity as you you know race around as p you know in in in in what can be a very fraught environment of um people competing for very, very um sparse set of opportunities.

[6:00] Jude Sandy: Um so so that's how it tends to show up for me.

[6:04] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[6:05] Jude Sandy: Um as far as how do I deal with it.

[6:11] Jude Sandy: In large or small ways.

[6:13] Jude Sandy: It could be very basic ways.

[6:15] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[6:15] Jude Sandy: Um I know that I I I can honestly say that I I I don't feel like I've that that that in a lot of ways my life is a conversation with with with that darkness.

[6:27] Leah Walsh: Absolutely.

[6:27] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[6:28] Jude Sandy: Yeah.

[6:28] Jude Sandy: I think it's all it's ever evolving.

[6:30] Jude Sandy: I don't know if any of us have the answer.

[6:32] Leah Walsh: Right.

[6:33] Jude Sandy: Exactly.

[6:33] Jude Sandy: Exactly.

[6:35] Jude Sandy: Um and there are a few things that have proven helpful.

[6:39] Jude Sandy: Mm-hmm.

[6:41] Jude Sandy: One is um knowing your tribe and and um and trusting them.

[6:49] Jude Sandy: And and I know for me trust is a difficult it's a it's a difficult proposition.

[6:55] Jude Sandy: Because we're bombarded you know and and and it's hard to know intent.

[7:00] Jude Sandy: So it's so especially I mean the the the crazy thing about our business is that we fall in love with people again um with whom we're constantly in some some sort of competition.

[7:12] Jude Sandy: And so it's hard to um to to maintain that contradiction right that constantly we we're in a uh a space in which you know we're being told that we have to promote ourselves um that we have to be our our best agents that um we have to be constantly announcing what's the new thing that we're doing that's exciting that makes us attractive that makes us um worthy of more work um at a higher level you know we're constantly trying to to build that up and so it it in that like I am climbing the tower um effort constant effort it it I it know it can feel difficult to reach out to the the people who are also in the midst of that same yeah very to see each other quick uh like clearly yes yes through all of that yes and see and see ourselves as available to one another and see ourselves as worthy of um demanding that of the people who we we also love and support and who we want to be successful um yeah it's a tricky it it's a tricky tricky tricky place that we're in yeah that we inhabit um and I s I I I still haven't figured it out um one thing that I'm learning just now just now starting to figure out is um uh a greater sense of clarity between uh the doing and the being um in that you know we in school and as we're learning and as we discover our passion for the for the work and for the profession you know the vocation of of the work that we become actors and we become artists and we start playing with that um personality and what it means to be this thing and then we begin to define ourselves as such and according to um uh ideas and ideals of what those things are um and then we hit real life.

[7:12] Leah Walsh: Yeah, that's exactly how I felt too.

[7:12] Jude Sandy: Yeah.

[7:12] Jude Sandy: You know and and and real life is just so much more contradictory and um and and so much less clear and what I'm just beginning to learn now is um so you have the thing that that you've decided you are you know that um and it it it's really easy for that thing to feel under assault by all of the the realities and um and having a real clear sense of oh this is what I'm doing right now which may not necessarily have a um fundamental um reflection on who I am you know so the jobs that you get um both artistically and non artistically you know the survival jobs versus the the creative jobs and and and even the creative jobs might not be your cup of tea or your purpose.

[10:37] Leah Walsh: Right, yeah, yeah.

[10:37] Jude Sandy: And and and and having a sense of separation um and a sense of of care for the the the the identity that you've built for yourself.

[10:49] Leah Walsh: Yep.

[10:49] Jude Sandy: And and preserving it from.

[10:54] Jude Sandy: Yeah.

[10:56] Jude Sandy: Well it can be hard.

[10:56] Jude Sandy: I know I'm I'm the best at beating myself up.

[10:59] Jude Sandy: Yeah, right.

[11:00] Jude Sandy: And it's such I've tried to get better at it 'cause it's like you go in, you don't have the audition you wanted to have and like it doesn't help to mentally assault yourself.

[11:11] Leah Walsh: Right.

[11:11] Jude Sandy: But it's easy to do.

[11:12] Leah Walsh: Right, yeah.

[11:14] Jude Sandy: And it's so it it it's so easy and and learning how to be gentler with that identity 'cause one it's so fragile.

[11:23] Leah Walsh: Um I love that.

[11:24] Jude Sandy: And not let it be taken away from you too.

[11:27] Leah Walsh: Right.

[11:27] Jude Sandy: By the constant affronts that we face in this business.

[11:32] Leah Walsh: Yes.

[11:32] Jude Sandy: And I mean certainly the experience that I've had over the past few years in New York and New York has been kind to me um uh I I've wrestled with with that boundary a lot and um and I mean I I uh just for full disclosure, I'm in a really big transitional f phase in my life right now and uh what I discovered was that you you get to New York and very quickly people want to know what you are.

[12:07] Jude Sandy: You know are you a T V film actor?

[12:09] Jude Sandy: Are you a theater actor?

[12:11] Jude Sandy: Well are you a musical theater artist?

[12:13] Jude Sandy: You know are you more a dancer than you are a singer?

[12:16] Jude Sandy: Like you know people want to have a very clear definition of what you are and and in my experience, what that did was made me like start cutting pieces of myself off.

[12:27] Jude Sandy: You know.

[12:28] Jude Sandy: Um so you know to try to fit yourself in their definition.

[12:32] Jude Sandy: Precisely.

[12:33] Jude Sandy: Um because you're you're told you you're you're given a very clear path of what success looks like um and what it entails.

[12:41] Jude Sandy: Um that it entails a certain kind of discipline and a certain kind of clarity, and that people want it and you need to be ready to present it. You know, it's like what's your two-minute pitch of you know who you are? And um yeah. It's so it's it's obscene. Oh my gosh, it is, it is, and it's bizarre. It would be nice. It would be nice if you could do that, but that's bizarre. But just so much more complex than that. Yeah, precisely, precisely. Um, and I marvel at the people who have that sense of clarity who are able to do that, and I'm so impressed by them, um, and who have a kind of singularity of purpose. Um and uh what I've discovered though is that for me um what I'm just now discovering is finding really diverse ways of um entry into the world for myself is helpful.

[13:42] Jude Sandy: So almost a complete rebellion from from what we're being told. Yes, yeah. Um and because what I found was that I mean I came into into the theater as a dancer from at an old age for a dancer, and um and then moved from dance into theater, and after three years of grad school, found that what I was being seen as was more of a movement artist, and really resisted that because you get to grad school. And you put in your time, you want to be seen as an actor. Right. Right. And what was funny for me was that um I actually did not go to grad school. Um I remember when I went when I was applying to grad schools, it was not my intent to become a career actor personally. Um it was as someone who had a dance background wanting to broaden the ingredients available to me for the creation of work. That's what I was thinking about when I started.

[14:48] Jude Sandy: And then you get swept into the profession with all the glorious things that are in it, and the camaraderie and the creation of the work and the collaboration and and the fulfilling of the work and and the engagement with audiences and and and feeling useful, you know, that you've told these stories that are engaging people's minds and hearts, and you go, Well, yes, and you go, Well, okay, yeah, I can do that. I can do that, yeah, you know. And um and and and of course you spend if you're if you're you know in grad school, you spend three years just doing that. Yeah. And then you get out in into the world and and the opportunities are you know, select um to be able to do that thing that you just spent all this energy learning how to become a really good athlete at. Yeah. Um and um and then suddenly I found myself starting to cut off the thing that I initially went into it for to try to fit into these streams of professional profiles.

[15:57] Jude Sandy: And I what I noticed over the past few years is that I've been just getting narrower and narrower as an artist. Um and I would say if anything, if my my the one um you know big lesson of the five years that I've been in New York is resist that at all costs. I think there's nothing that takes us to a darker place than our narrowing or our diminishing of our full complexity. Um and I actually think what I think what's funny about it is that um while the machinery of our industry suggests and and and really pulls us in the direction of that kind of narrow focus specializing in things, the industry itself, the profession itself, the work itself doesn't want that.

[16:58] Jude Sandy: So we actually end up doing not only ourselves but the profession a disservice by narrowing ourselves. Um and and that you know, we learn we're told this in grad school, then we we hit a hard reality that seems to contradict it, you know that we're told in school, be your fullest self, and then we get into a situation that cuts us up, that feels like it cuts us up and tells us you have to choose between things because this is what success looks like. Right. Or even to be able to do to get a job to be able to do it. And so of course you cut yourself up because you want to be contributing, you want to be useful, like you said. Like, like of course we all want to be useful. Right.

[17:40] Jude Sandy: And so to even be able to do any work if you feel like you had to narrow yourself. Yes, yes, that you you want to feel that you're being that your energies is is productively contributing to something. Right. Exactly. Right. Um, but what I'm just beginning to discover um is that opportunities that may seem to disperse your energies, you know, like if you you know, if you're told success looks like that, so you should be y you know, I've had professionals say to me, Well, you shouldn't be doing that kind of work because that kind of work is not gonna is not prized. You're gonna get, you know, pigeonholed as that kind of artist and you want to be this kind of artist.

[18:26] Jude Sandy: So you but the truth of the matter is is take the opportunities, take them all, because all they will make you is a more interesting person ultimately. And there will be and and that will self-select your path for you, and it will actually just keep you authentic as as an artist, and it will actually keep you more fulfilled as an artist. Don't fall for the hype you know, of oh, you know well, if you wanna be in TV and film, this is what you have to do. Um because what what I'm just now being reminded is that life just works much more mysteriously than that.

[19:08] Jude Sandy: And we keep, you know being um fooled by the formulas, and the formulas don't apply. You know, we hear the stories and the narratives are always tidied into this thing of well, this person did this and then they did that, and they went, you know, and then they were on Broadway. And then and then they you know they And if I want to be like her I need to this is yeah. And the truth of the matter is it's life is just alchemy. That that's all it is. Uh huh and you and you have in my opinion um you have very limited control over how that plays itself out.

[19:52] Jude Sandy: And so take every gift that comes um and and deny none of it. Reject none of it. Um because it's all enriching ultimately and I think it ends up just leading you in surprising places. And quite frankly even the resistance leads you to surprising places that then just reinforce the thing of be yourself. Yeah.

[20:16] Jude Sandy: Um actually do be your full self um because you'll do better work. You'll do more interesting work. When you it you know and and you might be thinking to yourself well um you know I I love um you know puppetry so but but I'm told that if I want to be TV and film I need to focus on that kind of work. Do the puppetry because at some point you're gonna accidentally meet someone who's gonna go, can you do this here? Right. And it'll it'll it'll it's all gonna work out. It'll work itself out. I think we need to to let go a lot more there's something very comforting about that thought it is such a random random business and I think that's why I think that's why people try to cling to so much control and to these theories.

[21:07] Jude Sandy: Exactly. Is because we have so little control that they're trying to trying to make it into something that they can deal with. Yep and that there's just there's actually so much possibility that people are just trying to carve out what makes sense. And of course we have to seem like we have we that we know what we're doing. Yeah.

[21:28] Jude Sandy: Um and more often than not we don't I or at least I I shouldn't speak for anyone I don't I don't we don't I don't yes yeah I had this you know wonderful experience where um I recently parted ways with with my agents um and they thought you know that they were they've been moving in a really wonderful direction that's I mean it's incredible how s how they've grown and they've become successful in a way that um is wonderful for them and is not really who I am and we've had some great successes together and for the past couple years it became clear something isn't quite working.

[22:17] Jude Sandy: And part of it frankly was that I'd been trying to cut myself up into the thing that I thought that they wanted would want. Yeah. Yeah so there I was trying to carve myself up into this thing that I thought would be attractive to them and to casting agents and and if I if I could define myself I mean oh my god we can't define ourselves we we elude ourselves constantly as soon as we think we put our finger at least I once again I will speak for myself as soon as I put my finger on like, oh, this is what I am, it becomes the exact opposite.

[22:52] Jude Sandy: We're just so much more complex than that. And so there I was trying to, you know, define myself for them and make myself clear, thinking for them, right? And pulling apart pieces of myself, and actually all I was doing was making it impossible to conjure the magic that is this particular human being, and therefore nothing was happening. It stopped happening, you know.

[23:25] Jude Sandy: I had stopped auditioning, um and it was clear that nothing was happening. So we finally had a conversation and and it was clear it was time to to part ways, and the next day I and and I thought because I knew because in me I'd known it was coming. Uh I'd had conversations with friends over the past year and a half going, maybe it's time for me to to do something else and not be with with my agents anymore because something's not working.

[23:54] Jude Sandy: And so, but then of course you think, but you have to have representation. Right. And even if you think that you're like, oh well, I I wouldn't mind switching to another agent, but you don't want to be without one. Or no one will believe you should have one. Right, exactly, right? No one's gonna take you remotely seriously if you don't have an agent.

[24:12] Jude Sandy: Right. Um, and and so when when we had the conversation, I was thinking, well, I'm gonna hang up, and at some point the you know, the terror and and and despair is gonna hit. And actually all I felt was release. And it completely rearranged how I saw the past couple of years because it it what it made clear to me is that of course your agents are gonna try to, you know, figure out how they can sell you.

[24:38] Jude Sandy: So they will ask you to define yourself, but um I actually wasn't doing them any favors in taking that on to myself. Interesting. But you can play the game of well, I'm capable of this, so I can I can I can shape a little for you, but as far as like trying to do that on yourself, in yourself, that's not helpful. Um and I and that's what I had done. And suddenly I was released from having to do that anymore.

[25:07] Jude Sandy: And what was so I I remember I emailed them the next day and I was like, look, let's be clear. We are even better friends now. Because now uh be because we knew we knew and what and what happened was we uh we acted on finally we acted on what we knew, right?

[25:24] Jude Sandy: And we had this wonderful email exchange, and then an hour later I got an email from a wonderful colleague who goes, "Can you come do movement direction for my production?" And what was bizarre about it, it was the kind of work that I was resisting doing as I was trying to become a career actor. But it's actually the work I love, and it's like, yeah, do all of it, do all, do all. Do not try to isolate yourself out define yourself.

[25:59] Leah Walsh: Yeah, and it was the kind of work that I would have otherwise been really hesitant to take because that, well, okay, that's gonna be time away from New York when my, you know, my agent might be seen as that.

[26:12] Jude Sandy: And then right, oh right, there he is, a movement guy.

[26:15] Leah Walsh: So where did you do this?

[26:16] Jude Sandy: It was outside.

[26:17] Leah Walsh: At Cleveland Playhouse.

[26:18] Jude Sandy: Okay. For a production of The Crucible. Um, and had an incredible time. An incredible time, and just was reminded of all right, we are so much more than our websites.

[26:38] Leah Walsh: Quote of the day.

[26:40] Jude Sandy: Quote of the day.

[26:41] Leah Walsh: Oh my gosh.

[26:43] Jude Sandy: And isn't that liberating to know that you're more than your Instagram feed?

[26:47] Leah Walsh: Oh my gosh. It's been such a relief. And bizarre enough, but tellingly enough, I've actually had more people calling me to either offer me works off the bat or ask me to come in to be considered for things. I've actually had more of that in the past two months than I've had this past year.

[27:12] Jude Sandy: Yeah. Something was freed up.

[27:14] Leah Walsh: Something is freed up. So resist the temptation of shackling yourself to the imagery.

[27:26] Jude Sandy: Yeah.

[27:27] Leah Walsh: At all costs. Just resist it. And you know, and what I love is that then it makes me think differently about my colleagues who I see who are doing, you know, many different things and are working in many different capacities in our field, you know, who are saying, "I am gonna write something, even if it's unpublishable or unstageable." But it's just about engaging yourself in a different way and reconnecting with the fact that for many of us, when we started this, we started it to be complete artists.

[28:05] Jude Sandy: Um, yeah, not as mercenary, you know, freelance actors, you know, trying to land a movie deal or TV series. You know, yeah, you know.

[28:20] Leah Walsh: And which is not to at all demean that work, but it's part of a larger mosaic of who we are.

[28:26] Jude Sandy: Yes.

[28:27] Leah Walsh: And what we're capable of. And I think sometimes when we go through training, like a lot of us have, that's so specific for acting, we get, I don't know if it's we're scared to try other things because we're not trained to playwright. Or, you know, or we don't, we know what intense training is, so we maybe we're not a songwriter. But on like for your own artistry, for your own inner life, why not try it? Why not try it and fail and then fail better, whatever that quote is and right, yeah.

[29:00] Jude Sandy: And for me, it's like actually, if anything else, it's so informative to the reality that it's all the same work. That it is about how are we crafting our humanity. That that's what it comes down to. I mean, what's been liberating for me is realizing that all right, a director is doing the same work that an actor is doing, just from a different perspective with a different set of inputs coming in, you know, as far as all right, they have to deal very specifically with designers and with the theater itself and with the space, and it's just about, you know, different levels of the same work.

[29:43] Leah Walsh: An actor also has to be thinking about the space and what the design elements are. Like we're actually all on the same project.

[29:52] Jude Sandy: Um, and I think it's that hierarchy of like the power when you're getting the job that can come to sometimes throw that out of whack. When of course we should, at least when you have the job and ideally all the time, it should be a team effort and a collaborative effort.

[30:06] Leah Walsh: And I know that's what I miss a lot about grad school is we were an ensemble. And there aren't many of those companies left where you do get to work with people for a year.

[30:15] Jude Sandy: Well, the funny thing about it too is that even in those situations where it feels like the hierarchy is so solid and impenetrable, the opposite ends up proving true. I remember being in a production at a very established theater with a huge reputation with a director who was known to be very strict, very authoritarian and seeing how we all generally kind of fell into place as minions to his vision and an incredibly intelligent director and watching that director respond to people working in very disciplined ways and actually being really kind of actually frustrated by people and watching the one or two actors who understood that and transcended it to be constantly available to making suggestions in constructive and nonintrusive ways that every time the director had a note for them, they were ready with, "Yes, and I can try this, and I can try this and I can try that."

[31:38] Leah Walsh: Whereas I think a lot of the rest of us were going, just try to figure out what that director wants.

[31:44] Jude Sandy: Right.

[31:45] Leah Walsh: And do that.

[31:45] Jude Sandy: Just take orders.

[31:46] Leah Walsh: Just take the order.

[31:48] Jude Sandy: And what you find out is even the ones who seem to want you to just take the order, don't want that. They want you to apply your full intelligence and actually have more.

[32:01] Leah Walsh: Yeah, have more.

[32:02] Jude Sandy: And to fulfill and transcend their idea.

[32:08] Leah Walsh: Um, yeah, don't be fooled.

[32:13] Jude Sandy: Just don't be fooled. It's not true.

[32:16] Leah Walsh: It's just not true.

[32:18] Jude Sandy: Yeah, yeah. They want us to be interesting. They truly want us to be interesting and full and self-possessed.

[32:27] Leah Walsh: Because that's what they respond.

[32:29] Jude Sandy: It's actually what they end up responding to.

[32:31] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[32:32] Jude Sandy: And they want collaborators. They want people who they can trust enough that by the time we all do get into the room together, and they are being driven by all the priorities of a production, that we can be doing the magical work in between those lines and create something that the production alone can't.

[33:00] Leah Walsh: Um, yeah, yeah. This is all, it's so interesting because exactly where you started when we started this conversation, talking about where you come from and how those shape you as an artist. This entire thing we've been talking about is completely in touch with that.

[33:12] Jude Sandy: Oh my gosh.

[33:17] Leah Walsh: Yeah. Completely in touch with what you kind of stated as your purpose as an artist right at the beginning.

[33:24] Jude Sandy: Which I think that does bring us back to the beginning because you were saying, what is it that takes us to the dark side? And I think what it is is when we start losing sight of how all the things that we're doing are connected to one another, when we start feeling separated and isolated away from that sense of all right, this is all working in some sort of harmony even if we don't see it at the moment.

[33:52] Leah Walsh: Um, I keep having these cyclical experiences of being brought back to movement and then brought back to singing and voice and then brought back to, you know, pure in quotation marks, acting and every time I'm like pulled in one direction it actually just ends up reinforcing the whole if I'm patient enough to ride the rough wave.

[34:23] Jude Sandy: Um, how have you been finding 'cause something that's that this podcast deals with and something that I'm trying to deal with is like how do you then factor in the financial part of your life? 'Cause I also feel like I've done so many projects over the last two years that I'm incredibly proud of that maybe only a hundred people saw or made me twenty-five dollars for two months of work with peers and with artists that I respect. And I do see the success in them, but then there's that little voice in the back of your mind that of course wants to make your living from your art and not have to have another income. Like how do you deal with that part of it?

[35:07] Jude Sandy: And part of I think coming out of the dark side of, like you're saying, is like finding the balance and being involved in all these different parts of yourself and appreciating them.

[35:14] Jude Sandy: But if also if they're not making you money, what do you do?

[35:19] Leah Walsh: Yes.

[35:20] Jude Sandy: And this is exactly the transition that I'm in.

[35:23] Leah Walsh: Right now.

[35:25] Jude Sandy: Yep.

[35:25] Leah Walsh: Um, so I'm excited to dive into this one.

[35:29] Jude Sandy: Okay. Because I think it's really important for us to look at the world with clear understanding of how it's operating, what it demands of us and whether or not we're willing and able to run along with it.

[35:52] Leah Walsh: Um, and I know I'm in the midst of making big decisions about what my future holds but we, this is hard to talk about in a way that's diplomatic. I think artists need to find the places that are right for them. I think artists need to have really blunt conversations with themselves about are they in the place they need to be to do the work that they need to do.

[36:25] Jude Sandy: And I think if we're sitting here in New York City, if we're really honest about that, many of us would leave this town because this is a difficult place to create work.

[36:41] Leah Walsh: It's a difficult place to not be a wealthy person and somehow be able to move forward as a creative creature.

[36:53] Jude Sandy: And I think some of us can do it.

[36:57] Leah Walsh: I think some of us are capable of, you know, joining into the race.

[37:04] Jude Sandy: And some of us are equipped for it, and some of us are good at it, and some of us are energized by it and more power to them. But I think some of us don't belong here.

[37:17] Leah Walsh: And that's the place you're in.

[37:19] Jude Sandy: You're trying to figure that out now.

[37:21] Leah Walsh: Oh, I figured it out.

[37:23] Jude Sandy: Alright, then you haven't made your move yet.

[37:25] Leah Walsh: I haven't made my move, but I figured it out.

[37:27] Jude Sandy: Okay.

[37:28] Jude Sandy: And I believe that New York City is no longer a place for the struggling artist. My, regardless of what my financial history or position is, my solidarity is with the work and the livelihood of the struggling artist, and therefore I personally cannot continue to be a contributor to a place that is not for that person.

[38:16] Jude Sandy: I can't, I just, my own spoiled brat says no. So I do intend to leave New York. Um, I have come close to knowing where the next step will be because I have a much clearer idea and thank you, New York, for making it possible for me because I think the experience of New York is a fundamental one. I think certainly even now every actor should spend some time here. Every artist should spend some time here. But because it helps you, it demands that you clarify what your purpose is. You must come to terms with how places change. Yes, because it's still, I mean, it's a wonderful city in so many ways and it's incredible. It is full of, you can walk through art every day, all these amazing things happen here, but the basic living situation has changed so much financially.

[39:27] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[39:27] Jude Sandy: Oh, I still all the time, you know, I'm walking around going, "Oh, decades, one of the most incredible places on the planet." This is not our, but you shouldn't have to pay, you shouldn't have to not be able to have a savings account. You shouldn't be able to pay so much a month that you have to and then not get paid for your art also. It's such a bizarre thing. Yes, and I just think, you know, people need to know what it is they want to do and know where that's possible, where that's feasible. And so in that sense, it's why I will never discourage an artist of any medium from coming to New York. Absolutely come find out if this is a place where you can do your work. But I do think that I see a lot of us overstaying our welcome.

Um, and it's something I just see too many of us allowing ourselves to be robbed of our energy and our sense of purpose and our joy by a place that doesn't feed us. And I am determined to be fed. Um, I am determined to be healthy, and I am determined to be a member of a community that values the work that I and others are doing. Um, and it's unfortunate that I've seen personally too many, or my share of brilliant artists who cannot find just the sheer space to be able to open their brilliant brains up to let all of that magic out.

[41:31] Jude Sandy: And I think, you know, we're living in a time when there's so many of us. I mean, the fact of the matter is we would be to leave would actually be doing New York a favor because the New York market is a bull market. There's just too many of us here, right? For New York's own sake, it would actually be helpful. Um, but there are so many of us, and I think it's time for us to start changing the narrative of what it means to be successful and what it means to make it. I think what all of these conservatory programs are making possible is a national revival, um, a national arts movement. And it's time for us to start thinking that way.

[42:18] Jude Sandy: Okay, this is when I read this quote to you. Oh, I had this, and this just came up. Um, I love Patti Smith. I'm obsessed. Go read "Just Kids" right now. But this was a quote I found of hers that she gave on some Japanese television interview in 1978. "I believe that we, that this planet hasn't had its golden age. Everybody says it's finished. Art's finished, rock and roll is dead, God is dead. Fuck that. This is my chance in the world. I didn't live back there in Mesopotamia. I wasn't there in the Garden of Eden. I wasn't there with Emperor Han. I'm right here right now, and I want now to be the golden age. If only each generation would realize that the time for greatness is right now when they're alive. The time to flower is now."

[43:11] Leah Walsh: Oh yes, ma'am.

[43:13] Jude Sandy: Oh. And you brought it right around. That's incredible. And the thing about it is that not only do I agree with her, but I actually think it's happening. I think that this generation, and I'm a little older than the generation of young artists that are, you know, flocking to cities right now. Um, but I'm so amazed by the bravery and the creativity and the abandon with which young artists are attacking the task of creating work. Um, and quite frankly, I'm being instructed by watching that, you know, and seeing that energy and going, "Well, yeah," and there are enough of us, you know, we just think in theater, there's something actually rather remarkable that's happening in regional theater right now where there's all this incredible adventurous work that's happening that is not ego-driven.

Um, that is about interacting in really exciting, novel, open-hearted ways with the communities that those places are serving, and I find it incredibly exciting. And so for that, I'm like, "Hell yeah, let's go back out into the regions. It's time to do it. Those institutions are ready for us. They want our energy. Um, those cities are ready for us because those cities are refashioning themselves, are finding new identities for themselves, and that's all the energy and innovation that's happening among this new generation needs to go out."

[45:10] Jude Sandy: There's also just so many people in this country, and I feel like if the center of the arts is in New York, just how many people are not being, I mean, I know there's art going on across the country, but if everyone's here in New York—

[45:28] Leah Walsh: Yes.

[45:29] Jude Sandy: Right, right. How many people who are not artists? Because a lot of times here in the city, I feel like the work you do is only for other artists.

[45:35] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[45:36] Jude Sandy: So we're just talking to you. If you can find the way to really reach audiences of people who are living their lives, that's the main goal of art, you know, to touch people's lives.

[45:50] Leah Walsh: Yeah, be evangelical.

[45:54] Jude Sandy: It's the only time we'll say that. Yes, go be evangelicals of art.

[45:59] Leah Walsh: Yes.

[45:59] Jude Sandy: Absolutely. Go convert the world. This is a big question for me too, this location question. So you're definitely helping me think about it.

[46:08] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[46:08] Jude Sandy: After 10 years being in New York, we're definitely evaluating and reevaluating. I have a personal, I don't know what it is, but I have this personal affection for all of these post, you know, towns that were big industry towns that are, you know, just now figuring out what that post-industrial identity is. Um, and you go in and you see these little flickers of revival energy happening and novel use of old spaces, and I just find that so incredibly rich, um, that quite frankly, it's dizzying, um, as far as even trying to figure out, well, where do you land? Where do you, which one do you choose as your home? Right?

[46:15] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[46:15] Jude Sandy: And I think that those places want, they want us. They want us, they want to be informed by us, they want to inform us. They want, you know, um, is that something that you find daunting at all? Like the fact that, you know, New York is an incredibly liberal place, at least the worlds within New York that we live in. And growing up in the Midwest, I know that there are a lot of places that are not as accepting of the diversity and openness that is normal for us. Does that daunt you at all?

[47:39] Jude Sandy: It does. Um, and but then I'm actually reminded that it's that kind of separating away from one another that is making that possible in the first place, and that we have to engage the opposite energy, that we actually do have to pursue the person on the opposite side of the fence. Um, or they never have any reason to change.

[48:07] Leah Walsh: Right.

[48:07] Jude Sandy: And you know, I have deep, I have deep, deep respect for conservative values, conservative principles, because I think, um, I think that they're beautiful, and I think that without those values of liberty and ingenuity and hard work and freedom, that this country wouldn't be great. And this country is great. Imperfections aside, it is a great country. And so I find myself actually tending to have more fun talking to conservatives than I do lately talking to liberals, because I kind of can go, "All right, yes, we're gonna go down this, you know, stretch of topics and we're gonna agree on every single one." That doesn't do anything new for me. That doesn't change me, and that doesn't make me grow. So I've been having a lot of fun talking to my conservative friends.

[49:05] Leah Walsh: Uh-huh.

[49:06] Jude Sandy: You know, and really trying to come to an understanding of what that value system is and what it prioritizes and to see the true value because there is innate value in the system. And then begin a dialogue about, "Well, how do we meet one another and how do we create solutions that we can negotiate in good faith?"

[49:35] Leah Walsh: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[49:35] Jude Sandy: In good, which is not new to this country, you know. Um, so it's not, it's by no means a new thing. Like, it's not hard. Um, we've just made it hard, it seems. So, um, so I guess in a certain sense, I'm being made more excited by that opportunity and how do we as artists create work that's open enough to be welcoming to people of different points of view, um, even as we assert our own. Um, I actually have a special fondness for artists that are conservative because they're a minority. Yeah. Um, and in our universe, they tend to be the underdogs, and I love an underdog. So I love engaging with them and finding out their experience because it ends up being that often their experience as a conservative in a liberal setting is similar to my experience as a gay boy growing up in Trinidad and Tobago or as a black man living in America.

[50:52] Jude Sandy: So I end up fine figuring out that oh wow, we actually have more in common and what we want is actually so much more binding than it is separating if we can actually just get past the rhetoric.

[51:11] Leah Walsh: Right.

[51:11] Jude Sandy: I think that's the tricky part is that all the really negative hurtful things that have been tied to fundamental principles that might be completely logical.

[51:20] Leah Walsh: Mm-hmm.

[51:21] Jude Sandy: And yeah, you just need to get past all of that.

[51:24] Leah Walsh: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[51:25] Jude Sandy: And that we need to engage one another as people we have affection and empathy for.

[51:32] Jude Sandy: I mean, Pope Francis, damn it. Um how does your family feel about you being an artist, or how do they relate to that to your life?

[51:46] Jude Sandy: Yes, yeah. They've been bewildered in a lot of ways. Um it it's been it's been um a challenge.

[51:57] Leah Walsh: How old were you when you started dance or any sort of?

[51:57] Jude Sandy: I was 26. Not until when I took my first dance class.

[52:05] Leah Walsh: Wow.

[52:05] Jude Sandy: I had been um away from school, um, I'd moved to the to the States when I was twenty. Um I'd been in and out of school um because I was I was trying to do the uh respectable thing and and be a professional and um and it wasn't working, so for different reasons I had taken a lot of even more time off and then uh went to Brown University as a resumed undergraduate education student. Um and and two weeks before my twenty sixth birthday took my first dance class and it changed my life.

[52:41] Jude Sandy: And I and and I had done it as a um I told myself if I if I got in to Brown, um I would take this dance class. I would go and study philosophy and and be respectable and work towards becoming a professor. That would be my thing. So I'd be like, well, I'm gonna give you a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of treat to yourself, right? But this dance class, I'm gonna just take this little dance class on the side. And it changed my life.

[53:04] Jude Sandy: Um and so I think it was very unexpected. Uh that said, you know, um I I have family members who've been involved in the arts. My my eldest sister went to Juilliard, you know, was a was a dancer in New York. Um you know, has yeah, yeah, has has had a uh very successful Broadway career.

[53:27] Jude Sandy: Um and and um well actually even she she at first my parents intended her to be a lawyer.

[53:38] Leah Walsh: Isn't that handy how your parents get to select your future value?

[53:41] Jude Sandy: Yeah, yeah. And it was partly collaborative. It was like, okay, so if we're not gonna take this dance thing seriously, so what do you want to do? And and they were like, well, yes, it seems like law would be good for you. And she was like, Well, okay, I really want to dance. And and at some point she came to New York and auditioned for Juilliard and then called home and said, Hey, well, look, this has happened and this is where we're going.

[54:01] Jude Sandy: And my poor mom had to like come up and and take care of it. Uh, you know, um uh make it okay. Right. Figure out how we're gonna make this how we're gonna make this work. And she and she was, you know, tremendously successful.

[54:15] Leah Walsh: Wow.

[54:16] Jude Sandy: And I was looking at all of this as a teenager, having no clue what what what um I I would uh do with my life because I had been drawing and singing in in church choirs in Catholic church choirs um as a kid and feeling profoundly moved every time I got to do those things and then you know got to secondary school um and and and puberty and adolescence and was told nope you can't do any of those things anymore now it's time to fashion yourself into a s a citizen into a man and therefore instead of taking art um you will do uh geography or or French um you know and um so I was really quite clueless and and so when I finally and and but somehow the arts kept happening so I finished secondary school didn't know what I was gonna do I had no sense of direction because really the thing that was who I was had been kind of taken away and um my dad actually helped get me a job um uh an internship at a newspaper because his school buddy was one of the editors and so I do this internship and I'd always been good at writing and so and and and was started on the news desk and inevitably ended up writing about the arts and ended up becoming a theater and dance critic at the age of 19.

[55:52] Jude Sandy: Oh my goodness yeah was like like this big theater and dance critic in my in my little country um writing about something I knew nothing about because I had not ever acted or danced. So it's so it kept it kept pull and then I would push away and I would you know, I I came to the states and I was like, well, okay, international relations, we'll do that. And then it kept coming.

[56:17] Jude Sandy: So, you know, and the conversations with my family had always been about, okay, let's let's figure out the thing that that that you can do that you can write that will be a sensible career that actually makes use of your skills. I mean, they you know, my parents weren't ignoring who I was completely, you know, they're like, you we think you could make a good diplomat, so let's let's do that, you know.

[56:37] Leah Walsh: You'll you wouldn't make a good diplomat.

[56:40] Jude Sandy: You know, so for a time it was like, okay, I'll join the UN. Um, you know, and so they were just completely bewildered. I'd gotten back into Brown, everyone thought everything was gonna be great, and then here he is, he spoils everything.

[56:53] Jude Sandy: And right, and is dancing. Um, and was it were they angry about it?

[57:00] Jude Sandy: Oh, they were they were livid. Um, but but I think more than that, they were confused. They were just confused and lost because and they were concerned for me, and it continues to be the case.

[57:12] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[57:12] Jude Sandy: Um, so we have a we so it's a constant it's a constant negotiation of how are you gonna be okay.

[57:22] Leah Walsh: Yep.

[57:23] Jude Sandy: And I you and my mother, bless her heart, she um she knows me. So she said to me very early on, acting, I don't know if you can stand the rejection.

[57:38] Jude Sandy: And she's been proven right.

[57:40] Leah Walsh: Right.

[57:41] Jude Sandy: So she doesn't really understand the world, but but she understands the world.

[57:46] Leah Walsh: That's fair, but yeah.

[57:48] Jude Sandy: Um, you know, so so it's always kind of been a uh kind of, well, move forward at your own peril. And um and so it's been tricky.

[57:58] Jude Sandy: It's been a tricky balance. I mean I you know, I also you know, I I come from a very homophobic culture and and my family is is a deeply religious Catholic family and my artistry is immensely informed by my by my experience uh uh of my sexuality um as a persecuted one.

[58:20] Jude Sandy: Um uh so it's difficult. It's hard. It's hard for us to be able to um to transcend the the choices that I've made to insist that I'm going to be vociferous.

[58:34] Leah Walsh: Do you go back often?

[58:37] Jude Sandy: Not often. Um every three or four years. My sisters go once or twice a year. They you know, they're they're there a lot.

[58:45] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[58:45] Jude Sandy: Um, and I'm not.

[58:48] Jude Sandy: Um because it's not easy. It's not easy to go back. And I have dear friends, you know, who are there and who are working and who are being brave.

[58:58] Leah Walsh: Um and really Were you out when you were living there?

[59:04] Jude Sandy: Um I I I was as out as one tends to get, which means that I was I I participated in the gay community in Trinidad and Tobago, which is very small um and also very intimate and and um at least my experience of it was that um it was it was um a very tightly knit community.

[59:29] Jude Sandy: So I d I think I I um came out or, you know, started dating and started um engaging my sexuality um w in in actually a really beautiful environment in that regard because I was so well taken care of um by the people around me um and I was so well supported in that regard.

[59:49] Jude Sandy: My parents thought I was crazy. I didn't come out to them, but they knew something big was happening and they didn't know what it was, and and they were really worried. Um but but I was, you know, I had boyfriends, I had fri I had a I had a gay family around me, um, and um so in that respect and and the and and it was an intimate society, so um in that regard it it was actually kind of wonderful.

[1:00:15] Jude Sandy: Um just outside of that group. That life I you you you had to be very discreet uh about how you shared things.

[1:00:28] Jude Sandy: And then there were, you know, the few people who were, you know, very, very vociferous about who they were, and um I I I had great admiration for them because you know uh coming from from the social background that I came from, where my my parents were people who came from humble beginnings, um and and were fashioning very successful lives for themselves and and you know, were people who are people who are deeply respected in their communities, there was a certain kind of responsibility, you know, ho uh foisted onto us um to fulfill a a trajectory uh and nothing could be further from that, you know.

[1:01:15] Jude Sandy: Um so it was a really tough balance of how do I honor my family and honor myself, and it's something that I'm actually still figuring out.

[1:01:24] Leah Walsh: Of course.

[1:01:25] Jude Sandy: Um yeah, yeah.

[1:01:27] Jude Sandy: And and it's only been within the past few years that I've been able to s to reach a point of saying I I am unapologetic and and I am happy to be unapologetic.

[1:01:44] Jude Sandy: Um and confident that that happy, generous, unapologetic um sense of myself is actually the only one that can return to my home and have any kind of positive impact on the evolution that's hap happening there.

[1:02:09] Leah Walsh: And there is an ap evolution that's happening there.

[1:02:12] Jude Sandy: Yes, yeah.

[1:02:15] Jude Sandy: Well, it is tight. It's actually quite different and uh once again that the this n new generation of young people who are are just so have such clear sense of purpose about what their lives are about and and how they want to affect the world and and how much smarter they are than than than we are.

[1:02:35] Jude Sandy: Uh you know, than us older um or not so young people are, you know, uh um is inspi it's so inspiring. It's so inspiring.

[1:02:45] Jude Sandy: So um we'll see. We'll see. It's all an evolution.

[1:02:49] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[1:02:49] Jude Sandy: Yeah.

[1:02:50] Jude Sandy: It's always interesting, I feel like, for an artist to hear about their family and then their chosen family.

[1:02:56] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[1:02:57] Jude Sandy: Yeah.

[1:02:58] Jude Sandy: And I've I've been so lucky, so so lucky to have a really really deeply supportive, um and and large chosen family.

[1:03:11] Jude Sandy: And and going back to our original question about dark places build your family, build your family, and then rely on them.

[1:03:24] Jude Sandy: Actually be um be entitled about relying on the family that you build. That if you nurture a family in a way that's generous, that family is not only ready, they are enthusiastic. They demand of you that you demand of them, you know, and so therefore do it. Um that you honor yourself and you honor them by relying on them.

[1:03:46] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[1:03:47] Jude Sandy: Um that in certainly in a context like this where everything's supposed to, you know, you're driven and you have to be self-sufficient and have clear sense of purpose, it can feel like a huge failure to need help. Um what I'm beginning to understand is needing help and asking for it can actually be the most generous thing you can do.

[1:04:09] Leah Walsh: Yes.

[1:04:10] Jude Sandy: Yeah.

[1:04:11] Leah Walsh: Yes, I'm learning that as well.

[1:04:12] Jude Sandy: Yeah.

[1:04:13] Leah Walsh: That was part of what starting this whole conversation on the compass was about too.

[1:04:17] Jude Sandy: Yeah.

[1:04:18] Leah Walsh: Just being honest about needing help.

[1:04:20] Jude Sandy: Yeah.

[1:04:21] Leah Walsh: And we end up discovering that we're all in the same place.

[1:04:25] Jude Sandy: Even in the midst of success.

[1:04:28] Leah Walsh: Yes.

[1:04:28] Jude Sandy: Yes.

[1:04:29] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[1:04:29] Jude Sandy: Yeah.

[1:04:30] Leah Walsh: I've been learning that more and more too, just so you never you never know what someone else is going through.

[1:04:34] Jude Sandy: Yes.

[1:04:35] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[1:04:35] Jude Sandy: Even if it seems like they just got the biggest opportunity of their careers.

[1:04:39] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[1:04:39] Jude Sandy: You don't know about their personal life.

[1:04:41] Leah Walsh: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1:04:42] Jude Sandy: Exactly. I I I you know, the the biggest career opportunity that I've had, I remember being in the middle of it and feeling uh very isolated. Um because I was a fresh graduate relatively, and I had a lot of friends who were still struggling just to have any foothold in in in the city and and there I was making money you know and and and it I actually I felt guilty you know and and felt alone and and it and it isolated me and you uh and also because you you on the inside you discover that we even on the inside of you know like the bubble that's supposed to be success um people are afraid and lonely and vulnerable and protective and you know all the things that we experience on the outside of it um that nothing it that the condition doesn't change it's only the circumstances that change so we have to reach out, keep reaching out um because it will it'll keep us afloat.

[1:05:54] Leah Walsh: This is a change of topic but I wanted to ask you about your work with the 52nd Street Project.

[1:05:59] Jude Sandy: Oh my god and how that's figured out like figured into you building a life for yourself a fulfilling life for yourself as an artist when maybe you aren't working um on a project yourself.

[1:06:11] Jude Sandy: So so this past year I've I've done a couple um stints with the Fifty Second Street Project which is an incredible organization and it and it has revolutionized my life and my artistry. Um and I I we we all joke that the Fifty Second Street Project announces itself as a program uh to give theatrical opportunities for young people as a way to engage them, you know, in a different way.

[1:06:45] Jude Sandy: And but that in fact what it is is for you know frustrated actors that these kids volunteer to to bring light back into the lives of frustrated actors. Um because of all that place, it's it's just such a an oasis of generosity. Um and and it just reconnects you to why we do it do what we do and why we do what we do is in order to make connections with other human beings about what's all going on inside of us, what our internal lives are and how they play out.

[1:07:23] Jude Sandy: And so um I I started doing stuff with them um because I had free time and I thought, well, let's try to be useful. Rather what happened was that they gave me this tremendous gift of me of reconnecting me with myself as a holistic artist because I was directing two young actors.

[1:07:49] Jude Sandy: Um and I I get to I got to mentor them and I I got to um guide them and teach them a couple things, but more than anything else, I got to be taught by them about just what it means to be open and available again.

[1:08:08] Jude Sandy: Um and I I discovered that volunteering is the most selfish thing you can do. Um and that it it's hugely restorative and and it can be addictive in the best possible way. And and they're incredible organizations.

[1:08:33] Jude Sandy: So I'd say find organizations and and and volunteer with them if you can. It it just adds a whole other dimension to and and I mean the thing was, I mean as a dancer, as I was training, I was also being taught immediately.

[1:08:47] Jude Sandy: I was working um at Brown with an organization called the American Dance Legacy Um Initiative, and their work has been all about how do we make um the master choreography of American Dance Um available and accessible to people in a broad spectrum of the world so that an elementary student can be doing you know the work of the most celebrated choreographer and have that be part of their education.

[1:09:17] Jude Sandy: And part of uh I it it was a huge um moment for me in unlocking myself as an artist because just to work with the best material just demands a different kind of artistry from you and teaches you in a different way.

[1:09:31] Jude Sandy: So I progressed very fast because of this material that I was working with, and and and as you're working with that material, you're being taught that you have to be ready to teach it and pass it on to the next person.

[1:09:44] Leah Walsh: Interesting.

[1:09:45] Jude Sandy: Yes, that art is at its best when it's constantly moving. Um and the more we make it available to move through through through the society, the healthier everyone is.

[1:09:59] Leah Walsh: Yeah, and the healthier the arts is, and the more audiences we have.

[1:10:03] Jude Sandy: I mean, it it again doing the most generous work is the most selfish thing you can do. And so um teaching was was a big part of that, and I it was something that when I became became an actor that um that I that hadn't been part of my experience.

[1:10:23] Jude Sandy: And um so working with 50 Second Street Project reminded me of how important those two things are together, and that um teaching and mentoring makes you a better artist, um and and makes you a better participant in our work.

[1:10:43] Leah Walsh: Yeah, and and it's been hugely liberating, hugely, hugely liberating and informative.

[1:10:49] Jude Sandy: So do it.

[1:10:52] Leah Walsh: Well, I've kept you for a long time, so I'm gonna quickly ask you the last few things. Are there any um really tangible things that you reach to on like a day-to-day level if you're having a dark day? Is there a book that you reread? Is there something that just brings you out of it? Music, a place you go to.

[1:11:12] Jude Sandy: Yeah. Um when I'm when I'm being good, when I'm being um disciplined, I I I do engage a meditative practice that's helpful, that's hugely helpful. It's so so helpful.

[1:11:29] Jude Sandy: And and actually um it's an extension of a larger, a larger principle, um, which is to find your anchor. Um find your anchor and allow your anchor to be available to you whatever the circumstances are outside circumstances.

[1:11:48] Jude Sandy: I think part of the biggest challenge of our lives is that we are creatures of habit. You know, we want to have a routine that we can rely on, and we do this work in which you might have a right, you might get hired for something that's one day, or two months, or as in you know, my experience with War Horse, two years.

[1:12:13] Jude Sandy: Um, and then it ends. And you have to first of all, you a huge thing that I'm learning is that you have to be willing, you have to have a a way out of every project that you do.

[1:12:28] Jude Sandy: A soft landing, a soft landing, yeah, um, and and uh uh uh routine for saying goodbye. We create these things that are so intimate to us, you know, these characters that become real people in our lives, and then and then we're just expected to move on, and you really do.

[1:12:46] Jude Sandy: I I I learned that the hard way that you really do have to have a process for coming out of that that experience, each one of those experiences. Um, and so having the anchor that is the one thing that you can latch on to, um be it a meditative practice, be it going running, which is a meditative practice, um, being one of my favorite things to do is to just go to the Metropolitan Museum, give them a buck, and wander around.

[1:13:19] Jude Sandy: It's oh my gosh, it makes such a huge difference in my life to be able to do that. You know, it's like it's it's kind of my safe place in the city, you know.

[1:13:23] Jude Sandy: You know, it's like I hell can be breaking loose. I can just wal go in there, give them the dollar, uh, and roam around, and everything will be okay.

[1:13:38] Jude Sandy: So it's like finding that physical place that is a re your reset button, but also finding um some kind of daily practice. Even if it is I get up, I make my bed, I brew my coffee, and I sit with a book for twenty minutes.

[1:14:00] Jude Sandy: The rest of the day can be all chaos. But if you know that there's that one thing that you can hold on to, I I think it makes a huge difference.

[1:14:08] Jude Sandy: And um and it's the thing that is most tempting to let go of when things get hard. So it's the thing that we when when things are going well, we need to put into practice m with with incredible discipline.

[1:14:26] Jude Sandy: Um because it's it's it's the discipline that we established during the good times that makes it possible to continue it, sustain it. Um in in those dark moments.

[1:14:37] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[1:14:38] Jude Sandy: That's really smart.

[1:14:39] Leah Walsh: And it's the thing that anchors us, I think, to reality and to sanity.

[1:14:44] Jude Sandy: Yes, more importantly.

[1:14:46] Leah Walsh: Oh, yeah, yo, yeah.

[1:14:48] Jude Sandy: Oh my goodness.

[1:14:48] Leah Walsh: I could talk to you all day.

[1:14:50] Jude Sandy: I could talk to you all day.

[1:14:51] Leah Walsh: You've made my day.

[1:14:52] Jude Sandy: Oh my gosh. Thank you so much.

[1:14:55] Leah Walsh: I love you.

[1:15:08] Leah Walsh: Thank you for listening to the Compass Podcast. I'm Leah Walsh. More episodes are coming soon. Please look for us on Facebook, in iTunes. I'd like to thank the following people for their generosity. The Compass Cover Art is by Kim Miller, music by Brendan Speath, audio assistance from Nick Choxie, and a special thanks to Frankie J. Alvarez. See you next time.