This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Leah Walsh: Hi, and welcome to The Compass, the podcast documenting the struggles of life as an artist.

[0:05] Leah Walsh: I'm Leah Walsh.

[0:06] Leah Walsh: My guest today is Marla Phelan.

[0:09] Leah Walsh: Marla is an incredible dancer, choreographer, and movement director. We graduated together from Juilliard, where she was in the dance program, and we were in the same suite in the dorms, our first year of school there.

[0:20] Leah Walsh: I only lived in the dorms for one year. So it's been going on 10 years this spring since we graduated, so we've known each other a long time. I respect Marla as an artist very, very deeply.

[0:30] Leah Walsh: She is a magnetic dancer, and when she's on stage, you can't take your eyes off of her. I'm very excited to see what she does next as she's working more on her own choreography and projects.

[0:40] Leah Walsh: Check out her website at MarlaPhelan.com or go see her at the new venue in New York, The Shed. They are opening a show called Dragon Spring Phoenix Rise in June that she's in.

[0:52] Leah Walsh: I hope you enjoy the 133rd episode of The Compass.

[1:08] Marla Phelan: What do you do to try to keep from going to the dark side as an artist?

[1:12] Marla Phelan: Yes.

[1:14] Marla Phelan: The dark side. And I think I try and think of it. Um I think that there's a hole and there's the light side, and there's the dark side, and then there are all of these rays or rungs on the dark side, and I think some of them are good. And that's where your passion lives or my passion lives, and where a lot of my artistry lives.

[1:47] Marla Phelan: Um, and then there are the not so helpful spokes that are really um painful and hard to deal with. Uh, I think I first address my physicality. Because I'm a physical artist. If my physical being is not in check, then it's so easy for me to spiral out.

[2:13] Marla Phelan: So I try to make sure that I work out every day or have some kind of physical activity every day. And some days, and I would say most days, taking a dance class if I'm feeling on the dark side is only gonna make it worse.

[2:33] Marla Phelan: Um I think is that because of like a comparison thing, or you just need a break or um I think because twenty dollars for a dance class is a lot, and um usually the teacher is not going to be at the level that I need them to be at, or are gonna work me out, but maybe not um say anything insightful, or maybe I want something, or maybe I just want to be working out or training and they're talking too much, or I have too much like built-up expectation of what a dance class should be and what it needs to be, and it changes every day.

[3:18] Marla Phelan: So I tend to take a yoga class, or I'll go to the gym, which I just started going to. Just like kind of hilarious, but it works. Um, or a workout class, I like to be around other people, um, who are all focused on their bodies in a healthy way, hopefully.

[3:41] Marla Phelan: Um, so check one is physical practice every day if I can. I'll take Sundays off, but I try and do something, even 20 minutes. Um, and then there's the darkness that feels more emotional or um like fear, I guess, and that's much harder to deal with.

[4:15] Marla Phelan: Um, and I haven't figured it out yet at all. I so if I can go back to physical, um it like when you, you know, as a dancer you spend your whole life looking at yourself in the mirror, and then you create bad images of what your body looks like. And you have body dysmorphia and um I think you get that in your brain too, like like a talent dysmorphia.

[4:48] Marla Phelan: Yeah. That is a wonderful way to say it. Uh because like I think I was talking myself in that place today. Yeah, I I mean it's like every day I talk to do that to myself, but there's no way in the world that I don't have talent, right? It's impossible.

[5:08] Marla Phelan: Right. I mean, we both went to Juilliard. I've had and am having a tremendous career. I've worked with uh people that I I could never even imagine that I would get to work with, and yet I can convince myself that I am worthless, that I have no talent, that nobody would want to work with me, that I'm old, that I'm shriveling up.

[5:37] Marla Phelan: I mean it's like it's complete insanity. Um and so I think with this talent dysmorphia I treat it the same way I treat the body dysmorphia and I um try and say really nice things about myself to myself. Um self-affirmations and um I mean I go through the list of all the things I've done this week, this year, the last five years, last ten years, um and remind myself of the successes even from the last minute.

[6:19] Marla Phelan: Even having this thought and this new idea of oh it's talent dysmorphia like that's a success. So you just named it.

[6:27] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[6:27] Marla Phelan: And when you can name all of your fears then you hopefully can overcome them. I think seeing your fears evolve over the years also is helpful to me 'cause the darkness right now is different from what it was even a year ago or five years ago.

[6:53] Marla Phelan: Um right. It's not something that necessarily is ever gonna go away but you can see progress in the way that yeah, exactly. Mm-hmm. Or the way you deal with it.

[7:04] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[7:05] Marla Phelan: Yeah. And the it's um okay, I used to get really dark when I wasn't working.

[7:17] Leah Walsh: Right.

[7:18] Marla Phelan: And now I don't get as dark when I'm not working because I'm pretty stable knowing that more work is gonna come, but then I get dark when it's not the kind of work I wish I was doing.

[7:35] Leah Walsh: Right.

[7:36] Marla Phelan: And so just being able to see the evolution and see the shades of the darkness helps me like break it down a little bit. It's not so heavy.

[7:49] Leah Walsh: Yeah. That makes total sense to me. What are your days like right now? Are you kind of constantly freelancing and doing different things? Or what do you try to have in your life that's structure based?

[8:02] Marla Phelan: Yeah, n I'm trying to figure that out right now. Um I I spent so many years in shows and having a very um consistent schedule or in a company where you don't have a choice on what your day is gonna be like. You're told what you're gonna do.

[8:24] Marla Phelan: And um in the last two years I've uh taken some time away from performing or l performing less often. Um in the last six months really stopped uh left Sleep No More so that I could really just focus on what the next stage is and it's all over the place.

[8:57] Leah Walsh: Um or even if it's not structure in a day, structure in a week or what are those things that you look forward to?

[9:06] Marla Phelan: Yeah. Um I again having a physical practice every day, doing something, and I'm not super regimented about like I wake up at this time and I first thing I do is go and do the physical practice. I I let things flow a little bit more than that.

[9:24] Marla Phelan: Some days I have a whole bunch of emails that I have to respond to, and that's what I feel like doing first. I think I'm kind of scattered in that way. Like I will write emails for 20 minutes and then I'll work on this other thing and then I'll go to the gym and then I'll come back and I'll watch a TV show and then I'll have some food and then you know.

[9:49] Marla Phelan: Um, but I do want to have a more consistent work life. I I think it's it's hard, and then when I can't live up to the expectation of what I've set out for myself, then I get really down.

[10:03] Marla Phelan: So if you set out these steps and you didn't have time to do that, yeah, or I didn't feel like it. Respecting that, you know what, but this is also my time off.

[10:14] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[10:15] Marla Phelan: And if I didn't get to do that task today or whatever, then it that's okay too. I've been trying to book studio space out every week.

[10:28] Marla Phelan: Um sometimes it's only two hours for the whole week, and sometimes I'll be in there for many hours in one day or two days or three days, and um trying to find a personal practice uh and choreograph, whatever that means. I'm not sure yet.

[10:47] Leah Walsh: Yeah, yeah. That's nice to have the space. That's something I miss about school. Although Juilliard has been kind to me about lending me space for now and yeah now and again. But like just being able to go in an empty room for hours and noodle around.

[11:03] Marla Phelan: Yeah. And it's expensive too. And but that's something that I've decided to make a priority. Like I don't go shopping. I don't, you know, there's so many other things that I don't spend money on.

[11:19] Marla Phelan: And so getting into the studio is an important one for me. Going to the gym is an important one for me. Going to yoga is an important one for me. So I I guess I just check all the boxes within my open time as it flows in.

[11:36] Leah Walsh: Well, we're gonna cover so many different things, but um can we talk a little bit about where you're from? And I wanna ask like how your family takes in your choice to be an artist for your career.

[11:48] Marla Phelan: Yeah. I'm from Miami. Um my family's really supportive in the way that they can be. Um I they finally have stopped asking whether I was gonna maybe go back to school and like become a physical therapist, or what a great doctor I would be, or if I wanted to be a teacher one day, or what I was gonna do, you know.

[12:14] Marla Phelan: They finally stopped asking that. So I feel like a little victory and and for both of us, a victory for me that they understand me, and a victory for them that they have opened up their idea of what a career is and what work is. Both my parents worked the same job for 35 plus years.

[12:38] Marla Phelan: My mom, I think, just had 40 years at her job.

[12:42] Leah Walsh: Oh wow. What do they do?

[12:43] Marla Phelan: Uh they were both social workers.

[12:45] Leah Walsh: Okay.

[12:46] Marla Phelan: Yeah. And that just isn't the case for most people now, artists or not.

[12:52] Marla Phelan: Yeah. Being able to stay in the same job. It's amazing. Yeah. But they're supportive. Do they get a chance to come up and see a lot of your work? Yeah. Yeah. I think they've seen pretty much all of my shows. And do you have siblings or no? I had a brother. Okay. Yeah, he died recently. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. So it's been tough. Goes into the dark side, yes, I'm sure. Category for sure. Yeah. Frankie and I went down to Miami recently for the film festival. He had a film that he shot a couple years ago down there. And he was remarking on like how much he thought it had changed artistically from when he was there in high school. Like that it at that time it didn't seem like a place where you could have an artistic life really, which is why he left. Completely. And do you feel the same thing? Oh, I agree. Yeah. I don't know how much time you've really spent there as an adult.

[13:44] Marla Phelan: I haven't spent that much time there. And when I go down, I'm really focused on my family, so I don't really get into the community that much. Um, but even in the last five years, it's really grown. Because I went down, I think it was about maybe it was about six years ago, and I thought I knew I needed a break from New York, and I thought maybe I would go and spend some time in Miami and see what the community was like there. And I had a really hard time. Um I think everybody felt uh everyone was in their own little bubbles in their own pockets, and it was hard to find the through line and where I could fit in or who would welcome me into their community or not. Uh but then recently I've gone down and there's so many more people that I know who used to live somewhere else and now are living there and are making a life and making work and it's pretty exciting. You know, with young arts down there now too. It's really I I don't know if I would move back.

[15:00] Marla Phelan: Well that's what I was gonna say. This is is not necessarily related to the question about Miami, but do you feel like your artistic home is in New York for good, or do you daydream about finding somewhere else where you could make your creative life? I love it here. I spent two years in London and I enjoyed my time there. Um but when my contract, my visa was running out, I I knew I wanted to come back. Yeah. Two years is you either put down roots or you don't. And I knew I didn't want to put down roots there. I daydream about LA sometimes. Um it's warm. It's a place where both me and my husband can work, and I have so many friends out there now. But I d I am happy here too.

[16:05] Leah Walsh: That's kind of how I feel about it too.

[16:06] Marla Phelan: Yeah. I'm good. And so your husband is an artist too.

[16:09] Leah Walsh: He does photography and film.

[16:11] Marla Phelan: Film. And film. Mm-hmm. How's that for we don't have to talk about this if you don't want to, but how is it for you guys to be in a relationship with another artist? He's I think he's the most amazing person in the whole world. So well, I already knew that. Well it he's he's so I endlessly supportive of me and listens to all of my fears and all of the dysmorphias and tragedies and everything and still believes in me.

[16:53] Marla Phelan: Someone that you can let all of that out to and knowing that that half the things that you're saying are are not actually things that you believe in either. Right. But to be able to say that it helps to just say them.

[17:06] Leah Walsh: It does.

[17:07] Marla Phelan: And then to have that person still believe in you.

[17:10] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[17:11] Marla Phelan: And to and same you know, in return, he'll um feel negative and there's not a doubt in my mind that he's not going to be successful and do what he wants to do. And I've never had that kind of uh support before, so I feel like I'm able to be more of an artist and push my work further than I've ever been able to so it's it's like the best I love it. Um have you guys gotten to collaborate on anything or do you prefer to work side by side?

[17:27] Marla Phelan: We've we've done a few jobs together and they've gone really well. I would love to do more. Um I think I have so much to learn from him and and also offer him a completely different perspective. Um yeah we're we're talking about some some things we'll see how they pan out.

[17:27] Leah Walsh: Um so you've gotten to do a ton of different kinds of performing since we graduated Juilliard which I'm so fascinated with. Um I mean you've performed in Fiddler on Broadway you did sleep no more like you mentioned concert dance like commer you're doing it seems like you're doing a lot more like commercials and music videos and stuff now which is also totally different how do you take care of yourself as a dancer and as a performer in those different lanes because I know they all have different protections or not for performers um legally physically like how do you watch your own back?

[17:27] Marla Phelan: I think that's exactly it is that you're always watching your own back and my number one priority is myself in my work life anyway. Um, you know, you can have as much loyalty as you wanna have to another person or a choreographer or a director or a show, but I think most importantly you have to have loyalty to yourself, and if you need to move on from a show that is not over yet, and you're the one that leaves, it's a really hard decision, but it's your life and your career and not to feel guilty about what you need to do. And um, like with commercial work for some people that I'm on the job with, it is their that is their passion. They love it. It's not where my soul and my heart lives. That's work for me.

I'm right, I'm getting job, it's a money job. Um, and knowing that helps you not get uh like twisted in the drama of it in the he said she said in you know, it's your money job, you're gonna invoice for that amount. I'm gonna give that out leave at the end of the day, that's it.

[20:40] Marla Phelan: Um which is a really hard thing to learn.

[20:44] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[20:45] Marla Phelan: Like I wanna say it's a little clearer in that context, but maybe not.

[20:50] Leah Walsh: I don't think it is.

[20:51] Marla Phelan: Yeah. And you tend to work with people who are a lot younger in that context as well, and so the emotional not learned that lesson, yeah. And I've been that person at twenty two, twenty three, having a really, you know, high frequency about the job and you know, the impressing people or looking pretty enough or whatever, but at this point, no, it's I I'm there to do a good job, and I will do a really good job, and I'm really professional, but um I don't need to get emotionally tied up in the gossip and the drama of that career.

[21:40] Leah Walsh: Yeah. I mean, that's an amazing thing to know about yourself now.

[21:45] Marla Phelan: Yeah. And I'm sure it took trial and error, but that's awesome.

[21:50] Marla Phelan: I think I try and go into every job just being really positive.

[21:55] Marla Phelan: Mm-hmm. And wanting to have fun and be curious and learn something and spread joy as much as possible. And it's easier to do that when you don't let yourself get tied up in the negative energy of it.

[22:16] Leah Walsh: Right.

[22:17] Marla Phelan: Yeah. How do you do that when it's a really long-running show?

[22:20] Leah Walsh: Yeah. Like what do what do you do to keep that interesting for yourself and to keep it positive?

[22:26] Marla Phelan: It's really almost impossible. With Fiddler, I I really I struggled so much with that. You know, you're on Broadway, it's supposed to be like everything.

[22:40] Marla Phelan: But it's grueling too. No, I my sister in law has been in Phantom for three and a half years. Yeah. It's really amazing. It's really hard. Eight shows a week is really, really hard. And yes, you get paid really well, but you are working really hard for that. It's not easy.

[23:02] Marla Phelan: And and I would say I'm not I'm not always proud of the way I handled that experience. And so now I try and go into experiences that are long running shows like that. And again, just have a little bit uh just be a little more removed, not on stage, but personally.

[23:27] Marla Phelan: Personally, yeah, I think that helps me a little bit be happier.

[23:33] Leah Walsh: How long was that run?

[23:34] Marla Phelan: I don't remember. It was only a year. I mean, that's a long time.

[23:37] Marla Phelan: It was only a year. I've never done a show for a year.

[23:41] Marla Phelan: Yeah. And that was I mean, that dancing was like the choreography was gorgeous, but it was high energy. It was a lot. But on stage, nothing else matters.

[23:52] Leah Walsh: Right.

[23:53] Marla Phelan: And so that's I think the attitude to remember to have when you're backstage. That's not what matters. What matters is when you're on stage is the experience that the audience is having.

[24:09] Leah Walsh: Right, right, right.

[24:10] Marla Phelan: This thing and oh the drama that that comes with it. There's the on stage life and there's the offstage life, and then there's your real life.

[24:19] Leah Walsh: Yes.

[24:21] Marla Phelan: It's it's a there are a lot of layers to the to working in a show in the theater. That's that's one I don't know.

[24:29] Marla Phelan: I guess I was about to say that took me a while to learn that there's your real life separate from your work.

[24:38] Leah Walsh: Yes.

[24:39] Marla Phelan: I don't know. Maybe I always had a sense of it, but you know, because we went to Juilliard for four years, and that was your life. And so afterwards it was really hard for me to separate my passion for my work, and that I could also have fulfillment in my life.

[24:57] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[24:58] Marla Phelan: And also when I wasn't working, that I could have fulfillment in my life.

[25:01] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[25:02] Marla Phelan: Even though that I some that I wasn't like unworthy to have a full life that I loved because I wasn't currently working.

[25:10] Leah Walsh: Oh, that one's very challenging.

[25:12] Marla Phelan: Ding ding ding ding ding. Still having working on it from time to time. But it's true.

[25:18] Marla Phelan: It's true. Yeah. It's hard after you go through some intense training like that where you just feel like, oh, I should always be working this much.

[25:26] Leah Walsh: Yeah, that's something uh Tim and I, my husband Tim and I talk about is the come down after a big experience after Juilliard, after Fiddler, after a sleep no more, after like a big show that you've done, like or even um I just did a really intense two weeks um workshop, and what happens right afterward that next week when you don't have work or or you have less work and the the the come down is right and you suddenly get sick or you get a little bit depressed.

[26:09] Marla Phelan: It's interesting.

[26:10] Leah Walsh: Yeah, yeah.

[26:13] Marla Phelan: Trying to figure that out.

[26:16] Leah Walsh: No answers there.

[26:20] Marla Phelan: And then with Sleep No More, and I think a couple other projects too, like you've kind of gotten into the immersive theater.

[26:28] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[26:29] Marla Phelan: I don't want to claim it all for theater, immersive dance theater. Stuff which I love. That's like one of my favorite genres, I guess, or corners of theater.

[26:41] Leah Walsh: Yeah. What do you like about being that close to the audience? What do you not like about it?

[26:49] Marla Phelan: Oh. Or what did you learn from it, maybe? Whatever you think. Hands down, Sleep No More is still the immersive theater is, I think it's like the most fulfilling way of performing. Um, I don't think it's the most fulfilling way of watching a performance.

[27:12] Marla Phelan: Um, I don't really enjoy watching Sleep No More or an immersive show.

[27:18] Leah Walsh: That's interesting.

[27:20] Marla Phelan: But there's the well is endless. It is so deep. The information, it's part, you know, a social experiment. You know, you could be in a room full of people and they're all watching you, but one person in the audience hears some random noise, they turn their head too quickly, and the whole group just turns their head and everybody's gone to see nothing.

[27:51] Marla Phelan: And how that affects you isn't another, you know, layer of a social experiment. Do I then feel, oh silly audience member? Usually not. I usually feel, oh, what did I do? I'm so boring. Nobody wants to watch me. They've just left.

[28:14] Marla Phelan: Um, so it's, you know, a lot of combating that negative psychological state, but also, you know, it's not just a scene between you and your scene partner, it's a trio all the time. There's you, your scene partner, and then there's the audience, and um, you know, you can feel an audience's energy in a proscenium stage as well, but when they're right there next to you, you know, it's like bouncing right into your face.

[28:52] Marla Phelan: Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's not so good. Um, but there's, yeah, there's just so much I could go on and on if I should. Um, what are you excited about with your choreography right now?

[29:08] Leah Walsh: Or when you, when you're creating movement, um, like we were talking about, you've worked in all these different areas. What's the area that you imagine your moves in right now that gets you excited?

[29:22] Marla Phelan: Or the, I'm not using the right word, the form, but it's changing. I have a few different, I guess, projects that I'm dreaming up, and they take different forms. One feels like a film and has a really strong narrative, and one feels like a dance piece for a stage, which I, uh, is shocking to me because I didn't think that that's something that I would ever want to do, but I think I want to do it.

[29:38] Marla Phelan: And one other thing is more of an installation for a gallery, so but the common thread is definitely me and the way that I move and still discovering what that is and what I have to say in my own work or not so much what I have to say but how I'll say it in each of those things.

[30:30] Leah Walsh: I can't wait to see them.

[30:32] Marla Phelan: Yeah, me too. It's painful. It's a painful process going from, uh, always being the interpreter, right? And like that doesn't scare me anymore. I've mastered that in a way, you know, I'm still learning, but I understand how to do that.

[30:56] Marla Phelan: Uh, but to self-generate that, I don't know how to do at all. And then there's like the self-producing part of it too, which can be so daunting. I'm not even there yet. That's how early in that process I am is that I'm really still, um, with discovering what my process is, what my practice is, what, um, and how I want to express myself.

[31:08] Marla Phelan: And I think that when I look at other choreographers or directors or people, it seems like they've always known what it is. And I'll ask, like, how do you, what is your process? Like, how does it start? And everyone's like, you just begin.

[31:45] Leah Walsh: Oh, great.

[31:47] Marla Phelan: Um, I secretly think that they are probably wondering the same thing about other people, you know, like, yeah, it's all different. We always imagine that other people are 100% assured of themselves.

[32:03] Marla Phelan: And then you realize that they're probably having the same self-doubts. But why don't we talk about that more?

[32:10] Leah Walsh: I don't know.

[32:10] Marla Phelan: That's what I'm trying to do with this podcast.

[32:12] Leah Walsh: And it's really important. Everyone feels this way.

[32:15] Marla Phelan: Yeah, you know, it's like, and maybe I'm too honest with people, but when someone asks, um, what are you up to? How's life? How's it going? What are you doing? What are you working on? I, my first thing is like shock, fear, paralysis.

[32:35] Marla Phelan: And I'm working on a lot of things. I am, I am doing really well, and I still get paralyzed by it because what am I really truly deeply working on is something that I have no idea how to even talk about it yet? Or I haven't figured it out, and it's probably going to take me the next 10 years of my life to get to that point where I mean that you're working on, it's so exciting.

[33:01] Leah Walsh: But you know you want to work on it.

[33:03] Marla Phelan: You have to.

[33:04] Leah Walsh: That's really good.

[33:04] Marla Phelan: I have to. And I've had a really eclectic career, and the thing that I have shied away from is making my own work, and so I have to do it. I just have to.

[33:15] Leah Walsh: Do you have, have you felt that way about other things in your life? Like, do you go t thank you, neighbor's dog? Um, do you have a tendency to go towards things that are a little frightening to kind of challenge them, or is this a new impulse?

[33:36] Marla Phelan: Yeah, I probably do try and challenge myself.

[33:43] Leah Walsh: In a rhythm too.

[33:45] Marla Phelan: I've never heard this dog before.

[33:48] Leah Walsh: Yeah, that's so, that's so exciting. Just to know that you have like a long-term goal that you're working on.

[33:57] Marla Phelan: Yeah.

[33:58] Marla Phelan: Yeah, and I'm trying to be really kind with myself about it, that it's gonna be a long-term goal. That I don't have to produce something right away.

[34:04] Leah Walsh: Right.

[34:08] Marla Phelan: You know? It just, I don't have to.

[34:11] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[34:11] Marla Phelan: There's no reason to put extra pressure on myself. I already know I'm going to do it.

[34:17] Leah Walsh: So do you have any mentors in your work that have been helpful to you along the way?

[34:25] Marla Phelan: Something I've been, I've been trying to find a mentor for a while. Um, you know, you had teachers in school and things that they've said that have stuck with me, and I, I'll find myself repeating those little pearls to myself.

[34:47] Marla Phelan: Um, but I don't really have anybody right now and I, I want, if anybody's out there listening to this and wants to be my mentor.

[34:59] Leah Walsh: Yeah, I feel like it either has to happen really organically or you have to be one of those type A people who like seeks it out, makes a coffee date at an appointment and sits down and say, why not? I want you to be my mentor.

[35:16] Marla Phelan: Who I'm inspired by or I think are having a career that I'm interested in. But I don't know that those people are my mentors because they're in the same place that I'm in.

[35:32] Marla Phelan: Can they be my mentor if they're going through the same thing as me? I guess maybe in a sense, but it might not be the kind you're looking for.

[35:39] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[35:40] Marla Phelan: I guess I usually picture it being someone who's a little in further ahead in their journey or whatever that is, but it can be really good. And who I sucked up all the information I could by performing with them because they were so brilliant and learned a lot along the way and still keep in touch and they are my friend, but in terms of someone, what is a mentor?

[36:14] Marla Phelan: I don't know.

[36:15] Leah Walsh: Yeah, I don't know. You want to be my mentor?

[36:21] Marla Phelan: You know, I'm part of the Juilliard mentoring program.

[36:23] Leah Walsh: Are you?

[36:24] Marla Phelan: And they always give me dancers.

[36:26] Leah Walsh: That's interesting.

[36:27] Marla Phelan: Yeah, it's been fun. I told them that I wanted to be a mentor. I think I'd be a really good mentor this next school year because they don't always need everyone.

[36:35] Marla Phelan: Like I had to reinterview at one point when my person graduated, and I think I had a year where they didn't give me somebody. But it's fun. I hope they give me someone.

[36:44] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[36:45] Marla Phelan: But it's nice to be with someone in a different discipline actually.

[36:48] Leah Walsh: Yeah, I bet. And you don't you have a series of drawings that you do as well?

[36:54] Marla Phelan: Is that another little outlet for you?

[36:57] Marla Phelan: I really love them. There's like very, I don't know if you have them on your Instagram or something that people could see them, but they're like very clean lines of people moving.

[37:07] Marla Phelan: I think it's, it's sort of how I, it's, it, it's, uh, they look the way I dance.

[37:14] Leah Walsh: Yeah, they do. When did that start?

[37:18] Marla Phelan: I started drawing them maybe six years ago. I think I started drawing earlier than that, uh, maybe ten years ago. I had a boyfriend who could draw so well and I for the life of me couldn't do it and it really bothered me and there's with my challenging myself.

[37:43] Marla Phelan: And it, it just, it bothered me so much that I could not draw. So I started drawing and doodling and they, and I could see the progress and that's really rewarding when you can see progress happening.

[37:57] Marla Phelan: And then I like couldn't draw hands and feet. I still can't. It's like so painful to me. I cannot draw them. So I started making them tree limbs and I think that's, and like these ribbons, and that's where that they've evolved into this way that I draw people now.

[38:22] Marla Phelan: Um, that has been a really positive outlet for me.

[38:29] Marla Phelan: It's not my work. It's not how I make money, though I've started selling them. Oh, cool. Exciting. Um, but it's not like that's not my life source. Like I don't need to stress it's what I do when I feel like it and not do when I don't, and I don't get upset with myself that I didn't draw this month. You know, it's so nice.

[38:53] Marla Phelan: Yeah, it's nice to have a hobby or yeah, I've never had anything outside of dance that I really love doing. Yeah, so it's good to have that. I feel like we've already accidentally hit on a lot of these, but are there any lessons that you've learned in the last couple years that you're really proud of that you want to tell me about? It could be a small thing, it doesn't have to be something that's big and visible.

[39:21] Marla Phelan: Just to be nice to yourself, yeah, yeah. That's what I when I had my classmate from Juilliard Metchie on the podcast, she said something about how when she would go into that place of like beating herself up, it was like she was sitting in a corner, like self-flagellating, and like how you would never let your friend do that.

[39:49] Marla Phelan: Exactly. And I try to remind myself of that, and I like tell it to Frankie when he's in that place. I'm like, it's really like your it's like emotional cutting sometimes. You would never let someone you loved do that. I don't know, like what is that about the way the human brain works? Like that's what flaw in a design.

[40:12] Marla Phelan: There's a huge flaw in the design. You can do that to yourself, yeah. Be nice to yourself and give yourself treats and whatever. Sorry, I took that to a very dark place. Where did you go?

[40:32] Marla Phelan: And thus be nice to yourself. Yeah. Guys. Yeah. That's all. Um when do you like what are the moments when you feel like you're the one in the driver's seat of your career?

[40:48] Marla Phelan: I'm feeling that way more and more as I'm starting to make work and as I'm being hired as a choreographer or a movement director, then I feel like I'm deciding what the physical aesthetic is going to be, and rather than being told what it's going to be, I feel in charge in that way. I feel in charge when I can say no to a project that I'm not interested in.

[41:16] Marla Phelan: That's a hard lesson to learn as well, but you can say no if it's not what you want to do. And how do you find how does that work? Are you kind of by word of mouth? Do you work with an agent? Like ha like the movement director stuff. Like how do you that has been positioned yourself for that?

[41:36] Marla Phelan: That's been mostly word of mouth. Um, or the first job I did, the first two jobs were with my husband, my then boyfriend. And I don't know, he got it in his head that I was a choreographer. And I think that was because I was I was at Fiddler, I was the dance captain.

[41:51] Marla Phelan: I was the dance captain on a show where the choreographer and the associate choreographer both lived in London. So I was having to go to the Tony board meeting and present work that we were going to do.

[42:09] Marla Phelan: You were in a leadership position. Yeah, I mean, I really had to work with the musical director to make cuts for different shows for different um like The Late Show and the Um Thanksgiving Day Parade and all of that kind of stuff.

[42:22] Marla Phelan: So I but I didn't recognize it in myself, but that's when we met and he was like, You're a choreographer. Uh will you come and choreograph a Mazda commercial for me? And I I you know, I was like, Wait, I can't do that.

[42:39] Marla Phelan: And then I thought about it for five minutes. And of course I can do that. So that stuff started I because I started believing that I could do it. And then I started telling people that I was a choreographer and that I was a movement director, and then someone would have a job, and this is more how it's happening still.

[43:03] Marla Phelan: Um a choreographer or movement director friend of mine will have a job that they can't do. Right. And then they will pass it on to me. And happy to take the runoffs, that's where I'm at, and I'm very happy with that.

[43:18] Marla Phelan: Um, but I don't have an agent or a manager for that. I've met with some, and it seems most are busy with their one big client and they aren't really gonna be active about getting you work, so then you have to pay them, all of that.

[43:40] Marla Phelan: Yeah, you know, I have a manager for dance, and you know, that's also really rare that I book things on auditions or castings, like mostly it is word of mouth at this point in my career.

[43:57] Marla Phelan: Um, and I have her negotiate some things and some things I do myself depending on how much it is and whether it's worth her time or my time and I and she'll help me out with the choreography, movement direction stuff if I needed it.

[44:14] Marla Phelan: But really, like I'm my own boss. I can do that. I know how to ask for money. I know I've decided what my day rate is, and I say this is how much my rate is.

[44:26] Marla Phelan: Um I know I've bro I've broken it down for myself. I know what my day rate for movement direction is, I know what it is for choreography, I know what it is for music video, for commercial shoot for TV for and then there's obviously union stuff, and if it's with the union then you know exactly what you're gonna get.

[44:46] Marla Phelan: Right. But I think not being afraid of being a boss. Yeah. And is that did that all come just through trial and error, or do you feel like was the groundwork laid for that kind of needing to be that kind of entrepreneur, like in your training at Juilliard or like No.

[45:10] Marla Phelan: And I wish it had searching out resources to help you learn, or was it more just like I'm in this situation, so I need to make this decision. Well, I I knew that I didn't want to have to get another job if I didn't want to have another job.

[45:27] Marla Phelan: And so I had to break down how much money I needed to make to survive. And then as the years went on, I added more to that. And as my expenses got higher, I added more to that, and as my experience grew I added more to that and I hope that I will continue to add to that when I get more experience and I think it's like I have a very fair number to myself ask friends like compare to know what the going rate is and exactly what you think is and I'm you know always encouraging people to ask for more and when I pass on a job to another friend I always say make sure you ask for this amount because that's what I would ask for and because if they take it for less then they're no one's gonna want to use me because I'm too expensive.

[46:24] Marla Phelan: But if we all say this is how much it costs to hire us then it helps. Yes yes yes that's wonderful yeah it's hard like to be an entrepreneur and an artist I think people get um upset with you when you ask for money I mean I've been blacklisted from working with someone who I will not mention but because I because I know what my worth is and because I asked for it had my agent or some representation asked for it I wouldn't be penalized but because I did I am and that's not right.

[47:17] Marla Phelan: And that's rare that that happens, but I mean it's it's one thing to say, okay, it's not in our budget. Excellent. See you next time. It's another thing to make it a hostile. Hostile relationship after that.

[47:34] Marla Phelan: Very interesting. Yeah. Also, as women, it's just like a whole nother layer on top of it. Nobody likes you to ask for money when you're a woman.

[47:43] Marla Phelan: Yeah, no, and that that particular issue was because my male counterpart was getting paid more than I was. Interesting.

[47:51] Marla Phelan: Yeah. Okay. Enough about that. Yes. We all know where that conversation's going. Um if you are in like a negative place, are there any tangible things that you go back to besides we already talked about like the physical practice every day, but are there books you go back to, music you go back to, places you go when you just need a reset or a little bit of a lift.

[48:24] Marla Phelan: Making sure I get in my body, making sure I'm nice to myself. That helps. And then the last question is have you seen anything recently of any art form that you want to recommend?

[48:35] Marla Phelan: Oh. Seen a lot of shit. I saw this really weird movie, Climax.

[48:51] Leah Walsh: I haven't heard of that, I don't think.

[48:54] Marla Phelan: Super bizarre. But maybe interesting. Or anything you're looking forward to seeing soon or friends stuff.

[49:04] Marla Phelan: No, but this movie. Like, oh, you're being serious.

[49:07] Marla Phelan: I'm being serious. It's like super. No. It's it's called Climax. It's a really, really, really weird. Um, it's a dance company, school, whatever, group of dancers.

[49:23] Marla Phelan: And after their rehearsal one night, they have like a party, and someone spikes the punch bowl with LSD.

[49:34] Leah Walsh: Okay.

[49:35] Marla Phelan: I don't know if I recommend it, but it was weird.

[49:38] Leah Walsh: Where did you see it?

[49:41] Marla Phelan: The East Village Cinema.

[49:44] Leah Walsh: Something to think about.

[49:46] Marla Phelan: It's wild. But maybe horrible, but maybe amazing.

[49:51] Marla Phelan: Take that for what you will.

[49:52] Leah Walsh: Take that.

[49:55] Marla Phelan: Okay, cool. Thank you so much.

[49:59] Leah Walsh: Thank you.

[50:02] Marla Phelan: Yeah.

[50:03] Leah Walsh: That's fun.

[50:15] Leah Walsh: Thank you for listening to the Compass Podcast. If you find these conversations valuable to your life as an artist and would like to support the ongoing production of The Compass, please consider becoming a patron at Patreon.com/slash The Compass Podcast.

[50:29] Leah Walsh: Pledges start at as little as one dollar a month. You'll get access to bonus content and anything you can give would be greatly appreciated. Also, if you have a moment, please rate or review in iTunes.

[50:40] Leah Walsh: Every little bit helps other listeners to find the podcast. I'd like to thank the following people for their generosity.

[50:47] Leah Walsh: The Compass Cover Art is by Kim Miller, music by Brandon Speeth, audio assistance from Nick Choxie, and a special thanks to Frankie J. Alvarez.

[50:57] Leah Walsh: See you next time.