This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Leah Walsh: Hi, and welcome to The Compass, the podcast documenting the struggles of life as an artist.

[0:05] I'm Leah Walsh. Hi everyone. Happy almost holidays. I'm a bit under the weather, as you can hear in my voice, so I'll try to keep this brief.

[0:12] My guest today is Rachel Spencer Hewitt. Rachel is an actress and the founder of the Parent Artist Advocacy League.

[0:19] They're doing some incredible work right now, which I'm still just learning about. But at the beginning of December, right after Rachel and I recorded this conversation, they hosted their first annual national summit with representatives from institutions across the country.

[0:32] I was able to go a little bit for the happy hour discussion at the end of the day and meet Rachel in person and get to experience some of the community and conversation that she's starting around supporting parents in the arts, and it was truly inspiring.

[0:46] You can check out what they're all about at pal theater with an R E dot com. P-A-A-L-T-H-E-A-T-R-E dot com.

[0:55] And you can see Rachel's website at Rachel Spencerhewitt dot com. This was recorded over FaceTime, and you will have some brief cameos here and there from Rachel's kids and my baby.

[1:05] So this was a true family episode. I hope you enjoy the 149th episode of The Compass.

[1:23] Leah Walsh: So the question that I always start with is what do you do to try to keep from going to the dark side as an artist?

[1:32] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Um right now as a mom, I play with my kids, honestly. Um there's something so present about the way they engage with life, and um their needs are so immediate, and um their joy is uh usually pretty easily fulfilled that it reminds me um how useful I am and how valuable I am.

[1:56] Um it also reminds me uh what brings me joy because I have a very similar nature as far as like just insane curiosity and um interest in connecting with people and using my imagination always feels so good and they're always game for that so it's been a lovely surprise for me that um they're they're my little mini community mini artistic community in my house.

[2:25] Um as a person I make sure that I um do the basics for myself like go outside um get sleep um I have to see if I've skipped a meal uh or four um depending on the project um because I am very good at turning off my needs and immersing myself in a goal-oriented mindset um but when I do that um I function differently it's not sustainable when I do that for too long.

[3:03] Um and so for me, you know, and the words the term self-care doesn't even really resonate with me. I think it's more about um doing the things that remind me that I am a living breathing thing.

[3:20] I'm a living breathing organism. Um my husband will send me funny memes laughter is a big one just like going to that thing that I know I find really funny, even if it's like an old Parks and Rec clip.

[3:34] Um, I I just have to engage in like basic human acts to remind myself like what a what a cool machine I am. And then also remind myself that I I'm not meant to do um to override that needs function for very long.

[3:51] If I'm not sure if that's answer your question.

[3:53] Leah Walsh: It totally does. And I know it sounds so basic, but it's silly that uh that is something that's so easy to forget.

[4:00] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Yeah, you know.

[4:00] Leah Walsh: Totally. I will say a guilty pleasure, especially when I'm working late at night, is YouTube karaoke, where I like search for karaoke tracks and or duets where the person who uploaded the video recorded like just the male part and I sing with someone and it's like super nerdy and I do it by myself and I've only recorded myself a couple times just to show my family like how ridiculous it is.

[4:25] But there's just something about singing karaoke and just like getting into a song that can really kind of bust me out of the the darker places.

[4:37] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: I love that.

[4:37] Leah Walsh: Yeah. When I say that, when I say the dark side, what does that usually look like for you most often?

[4:45] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Um being riddled with doubt, honestly.

[4:48] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[4:48] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Like I know in like whether it's fatigue or whether it's um, you know, seeing someone from my past where it was a negative experience or something like that.

[4:59] I know when I'm taking a when I'm walking the darker neurological pathways when I start to ask questions like, well, why am I even doing this?

[5:09] Well, I mean, am I am I good enough to think that I could? Why would and so the questions that aren't productive but um challenging value I find really dark because my my brain is also like a systems brain, it's a problem-solving brain, and anytime it's presented with a question, it feels like a fun puzzle, and so it will play with it.

[5:32] So if I throw the wrong question direction, like, well, I mean, why should I even be doing this thing? And did I even do that thing well? And like maybe there's a way I can fix this, and I I know that that happens to me even when I'm active in my art.

[5:45] So I wish I could say, you know, doing art helps me, but it's still possible for me to engage artistically and be like, Well, they said that was good, but was it good enough?

[5:55] And did it land this way? And and go down this path, it's like what is what a subjective what a subjective question system you're developing for yourself.

[6:03] What do you expect to get out of that?

[6:05] Um, and so oh, I guess this is a better answer to that question.

[6:09] I have started to throw productive questions at myself when I feel those unproductive questions coming in, and they are, Well, what did you feel good about accomplishing yesterday?

[6:21] What do you want to accomplish today that you know you can?

[6:24] And so playing that game, because my brain has to play the questions game.

[6:29] Um playing that game instead has been really useful in in like breaking out of the um yeah, bre breaking out of the the the wrong domino effect.

[6:43] And also just, you know, being emotional creatures, I I always have um feelings involved with every moment of thought.

[6:53] There's no I I I talk to some people who do not consider themselves emotional creatures or particularly artistic, and they have thoughts and they have emotions.

[7:02] And for me, those things are interconnected, yeah, you know, inseparably, and I think that that can be really beautiful and beneficial, but that also means that I need to take care of myself when I'm having a difficult thought to say like okay this is my feeling associated with this thought this is not who I am right now.

[7:20] Um and it usually becomes more productive when I when I allow it to be a creative moment as opposed to trying to change the feeling or um change it that way.

[7:31] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[7:31] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Yeah. Do you ever feel um trapped by the word productivity?

[7:38] Leah Walsh: I know that sometimes it especially as a parent it can just feel like we always have to be accomplishing something.

[7:45] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: I don't know why that just crossed my mind when you used that.

[7:45] Leah Walsh: No that's great. I mean I know that for sure very early on and this is like so common right but the the experience of knowing that I had been doing a million things all day and at the end of the day it didn't look like I had done anything.

[8:03] And then you add on top of that people saying well what did you do all day?

[8:06] And I'm like well I didn't kill you in this moment which is like props to me for even asking that question.

[8:13] Yeah so this idea of productivity I guess the way I've been using it is um is output of myself into the world right engaging with the world.

[8:26] But it can it I it has been used on me and and it can be used to mean like have something to show for yourself.

[8:34] And I think that that's like a really dangerous and impossible definition because I at least I found having something to show for myself depends on it being a tangible you know, uh result.

[8:47] And it also depends on the person assessing it, whether it's myself or someone else having the tools to assess whether or not that output exists.

[8:56] And then what do you do when you're alone and there's no one to assess it?

[9:01] Um, how do you define productivity is a really is a really big question?

[9:06] And as a mom, for me, productivity is knowing that I have engaged with my children in a loving way.

[9:14] Like I I just have to reduce it to that as a foundation because I believe that my love is what they will carry through the rest of their lives more than anything else.

[9:25] And so it doesn't mean like being nice, like being loving, because it definitely, you know, we're we're all human, but it's engaging with them in love, letting them know that I love them to me, I've decided it's my standard for mom productivity because it also is the only permanent thing.

[9:43] They're gonna be hungry again tomorrow, they're you know gonna need a bath again tomorrow.

[9:47] So if I'm like bathing and feeding them, it's like gonna be a constantly, you know, self-fulfilling list of things to do.

[9:54] But loving them, I know is building on itself.

[9:57] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[9:58] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Can you just so people have a little bit of background on where you came from?

[10:03] I know that you grew up in Texas.

[10:05] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[10:06] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: And then how long have you been in the New York you're you're not living in the city right now, but you're nearby, right?

[10:12] Not right now, yeah.

[10:13] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Right now I'm living in Philadelphia, but I still work out of New York with Dr. Schneing and and all of that.

[10:19] Leah Walsh: Gotcha.

[10:20] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Um, but I moved to the East Coast after graduating undergrad in 2007.

[10:27] Leah Walsh: Okay.

[10:27] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: To grad school and have been on the East Coast ever since.

[10:31] And I lived in New York like two thousand ten to two thousand fourteen before moving to Philadelphia.

[10:39] Leah Walsh: Gotcha.

[10:40] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: How do you how do you like Philadelphia?

[10:42] It's so cool.

[10:43] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: It is a wonderful community of makers.

[10:46] And it's of it's a significant city um as far as like the function of our country, but it's also relatively small.

[10:53] Um it's a bustling downtown but you can walk it in like twenty minutes or twenty five minutes.

[11:00] Um so it's it's a great place to live.

[11:03] I need the pace of New York in my life, but I like being able to run away to the sanctuary of Philadelphia to breathe and to live once in a while.

[11:13] I think our acting teacher at Juilliard Richard Fellman was he was always talking about when we were there and he's like Philadelphia's gonna be the next great place for artists.

[11:23] We should all just move to Philadelphia.

[11:24] Leah Walsh: It's more affordable.

[11:25] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: We should all just do it.

[11:26] Yeah it's an it's a great artistic community.

[11:29] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: I will say that there um there isn't a sense of like constant vertical isolated hustle here that you find in New York and so the Philly community is um is is tight knit in that it makes sense that everyone's making things all the time in an interdisciplinary way and I like that transparency that I found.

[11:51] Like it makes sense that you have all of these different modifiers after your name of like what type of art you make, you know?

[11:58] And there's not this like, okay lead with the one you want to be hired for.

[12:01] It's like no, I do all of these things which is is more honest I think uh way to let artistic people live.

[12:09] Um yeah instead instead of like the people who are doling out the jobs and the people who are struggling for the jobs.

[12:17] Leah Walsh: Right.

[12:17] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Instead of saying, like, I'm an actor, I also do other things, but I'm not gonna mention them right now so that you don't think I'm I'm a compromised actor.

[12:24] Leah Walsh: Right.

[12:24] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: It's it's seen as like I'm an actor and I also paint and I also sing and I also do all of these things on top of it.

[12:32] Leah Walsh: Um, well, since I'm a new parent, I am especially interested in your experience as a parent and an artist. Obviously, it's not the only thing I want to talk about, but I am curious how that decision went for you when you decided to start a family. What sort of things went through your head as far as reconciling that reality with this bizarre career that we were pursuing and how you were gonna jump into figuring that out.

[13:06] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Um, I had my husband and I had been married for three years before we got pregnant and had our first, and you know, I always knew I wanted to be a mom. I always knew I wanted to have children. So it wasn't that conversation, but the conversation was when. Um, and I was fortunate enough to have worked pretty consistently leading up to the point of the decision, and it was for me just a moment of saying, "Okay, I feel ready." My husband and I had been long distance throughout our relationship and our marriage just because our lives have always been crazy. Um, and then we moved together to Philadelphia, and I didn't know if it was gonna be three years or three seconds, but within the first month and a half or so, I was like, "Oh, yeah, I feel like I'm in a place where I could grow roots," and I can only articulate that now looking back.

At the time, it was just one of those deep convictions that I knew it was the right time. Um, in terms of like its context for the field that we're in that is constantly demanding that you be ready at all times, um, I just knew that I was entering a gamble zone, you know? And it's like my whole story fell, my at the but like the rolling of the dice, like, "Okay, I know this is gonna present a challenge at some point, but I also know that it's right." And so, you know, I had long learned to listen to that voice. Um, and actually the weekend we started trying, I got a message from my agent saying one of the shows I was attached to might be moving forward, and we can talk more on Monday. And so I had a weekend to deliberate, and I also had that weekend set aside like when we would start trying.

And you know, my husband was so understanding and so gracious. Of course, he was like, "Well, what do you want to do?" Because of course he recognized this as affecting me deeply, and I said, "Well, I'm not gonna put my life on hold for a maybe." Yeah, and I was telling myself that at the same time I was telling him, but as soon as it came out of my mouth, I knew that's exactly what I thought. And so we started trying, and then I got the call sometimes that we did, oh well, they didn't know actually now and that they're still in negotiations, and it ended up being like pushed back forever. And I got pregnant almost right away actually, and I think that that's part of like my body kind of knowing when it was also physically ready.

Um, and that doesn't happen for everyone, but I did get pregnant relatively quickly, and just this, it was such a lesson for me in terms of that our industry is so fickle that why do I need to be constant? And it's almost like if I can, and I speak from like a very privileged perspective of having already built a career and all of that, but if I can embrace the fickle nature of this industry, then that also means that I can catch it again. And in order to do that though, I have to establish a life that fulfills me to a certain extent and also be ready for those challenges. I knew I was gonna be challenged, and I was, and I continue to, you know, look for those challenges now on purpose to defy them.

But, um, yeah, getting pregnant at that moment was a decision of "I'm not gonna put my life on hold for a maybe," and I did the same thing with getting married. I got married right after grad school, and even though we weren't gonna be able to live in the same place, I was like, "Yeah, but I know that this is exactly what is."

[17:11] Leah Walsh: Is he in the arts as well?

[17:23] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Not at all. Not at all.

[17:23] Leah Walsh: Which is another, you know, plus and minus, but um, a lot gets lost in translation.

[17:31] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: No.

[17:33] Leah Walsh: And then it's so you have two kids now, right?

[17:35] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Yes.

[17:35] Leah Walsh: And how old are they?

[17:38] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Five and three.

[17:39] Leah Walsh: Oh my goodness. And I know you just finished um doing a show.

[17:45] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: I did.

[17:46] Leah Walsh: Mm-hmm.

[17:46] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Cry It Out at Hartford Stage.

[17:48] Leah Walsh: That's right. Ironically. I really wish I could have seen. Um, but can you talk a little bit about how you've handled working in the last five years since you've become a parent?

[17:58] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Yeah. So, um, you know, what doesn't get the opportunity to get shared a lot are the jobs and auditions that I've passed on that led me to tears and like full-on ugly cries because it's just not gonna be a situation that's doable or worth it or that I can afford.

[18:21] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[18:22] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Yeah, so there's all of that. Underneath the reality that, um, I have very supportive representation who has been by my side since showcase after graduate school. So going on almost ten years now, but where they were talking to me in conversation right around the time that I had my first one, and this is not anticipated again, and now something that I say in retrospect like is good strategy timing if that's the sort of approach someone needs for their life. But where I should have been more specific about the jobs that I was taking and not just any job was right around the time that I got pregnant, and so reducing the auditions that I went in for timed out well. Um, I also had representation who was unafraid of sending me into an audition pregnant or postpartum.

They're like, "You know, that's their problem if they can't have an imagination to know that you're a human." Um, that human beings take, which is also like wonderful advocacy. Um, but the way that I handle the jobs that I can take now, like at Hartford Stage, is the first line I look at is honestly the paycheck. Can I afford childcare? Um, and I also have the extraordinary privilege of I don't live next to any family, so the day-to-day is almost 90-95% solo parenting, which is totally chill, I'm cool with that. I work from home. But when I go on jobs, um, we do have parents who have flexible work or are retired who will take like a week or two and come and do a vacation where I'm doing the job and stay with me.

Of course, it also depends on um, the theater providing a space. So I need a paycheck where I can afford childcare at least a portion of the time, um, a room for someone to come and stay with me. And um, the way that I have also kind of refined the list now is especially when they were much younger, um, finding a location close enough to where I could occasionally visit where my husband was working so that they could see their dad and not be gone from him for three months. Now that they're older, I'm not as concerned quite honestly about that last point. But um, actually the way that it worked out with Cry It Out is that three weeks before the job started, one of my um, both of on both sides of the family, I knew one set of grandparents who weren't gonna be able to come because someone was sick, and then three weeks before someone got sick on my other side of the family.

[21:03] Leah Walsh: Oh no.

[21:04] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: And so three weeks before I knew that no one was gonna be able to come. And I was like, "Hoo yeah." So I doubled down on like all the apps on my phone where you find babysitters, all the everything. I was a sitter on urban sitter dot com for a very long time, and so I've always, you know, used that. I use Broadway babysitters when I'm in New York. Uh, but I had to like adcare dot com. I had to do all this um, all the babysitting organizations, all the childcare centers in Connecticut. I mean, I was pulling up tons of resources, and then I signed up for um, some au pair service profiles just to see what was out there. Um, because I know friends who have done that, but for a short-term contract, it was completely unaffordable at first because for the way that the visa works, you book them for six months to a year, which increases the service fee just for full transparency. So I was like, "Oh wow, I can't afford that."

[22:01] Leah Walsh: Right.

[22:02] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Um, but uh, to her credit, one of the women who works at the au pair service kept calling me and calling me and emailing me. I was like, "Oh my gosh, she's got to accept looking on my phone." So I just answered it and I said, "Look, you're so sweet, I can't afford, you know, what you have going on." She's like, "Well, we have different payment plans." And I said, "It's not that, I just need a babysitter for three months. That's all I need, you know, unless you have someone for just a few months, I can't do it." She goes, "Oh, let me see who I have," and she pulled up three or four names that had extension time on their contract, and she was like, "So and so just needs two and a half months, so and so just needs four months, so and so just needs six months."

And I had no idea that was an option. So this is like a pro tip that I'm writing about now. So we're like, there is still that service fee, but doing a job and keeping my day job, I could afford the service fee and an au pair to stay with us in Connecticut and do the babysitting.

[22:59] Leah Walsh: And how does that, is it that you're just paying their room and board, or do you pay them an hourly wage as well for an au pair?

[23:06] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Okay, so I'm not sure if it's true how it works out for different services, but it's part of like a J1 visa program. So the restrictions are pretty tight on how it works out, but there has to be a room provided for them, a separate room. Um, their hours are very regulated, which meant that sometimes on tech weeks I did have to get extra childcare because, you know, we work more than ten hours a day. So more than it's usually last, and they can't work more than 45% of the day. Yeah, so you provide room and board and the groceries. If they want to eat something different, they can go out and get it. But of your groceries, they can eat um what they need, and then they get a day and a half off every week, um, a full weekend every month, and then there's a weekly stipend for up to 45 hours a week worth of work.

Um, which was, you know, compared to what I have had to pay sitters hourly for rehearsals and daycare, it worked out being probably less than I would have to pay in the past, definitely less than I would have to pay for the full show experience.

[24:18] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: So, um, yeah, she's with us for a few more weeks actually, um, until December 10th. And then the best childcare situation I've ever been involved in is gone. It's back to the real world. But it's been um, yeah, a wonderful, wonderful experience and definite surprise that that resource existed.

[24:41] Leah Walsh: So you mentioned your day job. How have you been piecing together that financial part of your career when you're not in a show?

[24:51] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Yeah. So when I was pregnant, I was working about three jobs, and we started to rent out part of our home for Airbnb.

[25:03] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: And I was like, I'm not gonna be able to keep this up when I have a kid. And it turned out that I noticed that one of the films I had done is like my family's film company. They were like doing some things on social media, but just being, you know, technologically adept. I was like, oh, I think I could help out with some of these things. And it turns out the woman doing the social media was very good. She just needed help. So they hired me on part-time as an assistant to do social media. And that happened right around the time I gave birth; I had been working almost full time by that point in their internal marketing. So I went from social media to doing remote internal marketing work. And I also mediated a PR meeting the day I gave birth.

So like conversations in terms of like, what should family leave look like? I had no clue, like so much so that it like wasn't even on my radar. But it gave me the social media and the PR training that I ended up being hired on full time. So I transitioned directly from giving birth to working remotely. And then this past year, my work with them closed out and I launched freelance completely my own business for web and graphic design and social media content marketing and management. With over five years of experience now in multiple accounts, I was like, oh now it's time for me to be able to grow this and scale it. And so I've been able to support myself and the actor side of things and supplement our family's income working remotely because of my social media and graphic design abilities. That's what I do. I work with—I sleep with my laptop essentially.

[26:51] Leah Walsh: That's awesome that it was something that you were able to learn on the job though and that you keep for yourself once you'd left that job.

[27:04] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Yeah, and I'm continuing that where I've already started training one person that I know and my hope is to expand the program, you know, so that I can provide work opportunities for people who need remote work which largely, you know, in our circle we know are mothers.

[27:24] Leah Walsh: Well especially if you get a gig where you don't have as much time or something.

[27:28] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Exactly. Exactly. And that's how we figured it out. So like then working at Hartford Stage being able to come to do some of the research and prep work while I was in rehearsal was incredibly helpful.

[27:41] Leah Walsh: Well can we talk a little bit about the Parent Artist Advocacy League?

[27:46] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Yes, I'd love to.

[27:47] Leah Walsh: How do you pronounce the acronym?

[27:50] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Just say PAL.

[27:51] Leah Walsh: Just say PAL. Okay. Just wanted to check.

[27:52] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Absolutely. Yeah, I've just been learning this year about everything you've been doing but it seems like an amazing organization, one that is so incredibly needed. What brought you to start it or how did you get it started?

[28:07] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Yeah, well, like I said, I had no clue in terms of asking for resources and what I needed, and I'm very good at pulling myself up by my bootstraps and shutting off all of that. Like all of that that I said earlier in this conversation went into my motherhood where with great agent support and wonderful family support, you know, at least emotionally, if they couldn't be here, I spent at least the first year of my daughter's life pulling myself up by my bootstraps and making it work, and it was hard, but it was fine. I still experienced discrimination. You know, I started to journal about my experiences, like changing a diaper on the New Jersey Transit with my audition shirt in my bag and all of these, you know, getting a baby on the megabus and carrying your stroller up the flights of steps to drop your baby off at the coffee shop so that you could go to rehearsal or the audition as though you didn't have a baby and look fine.

You know, like all of these tips and tricks that I was giving myself on how to erase that part of myself. I didn't realize that that's what I was doing until, you know, I—this is the story that everyone knows that it was like a very pivotal moment in my life. We showed up at a Christmas party and it was a networking party, and someone asked me, how are you doing? And it was a childless male colleague who had pity in his voice, like very clearly ready to console me. And I was like, oh, actually, you know, it's going great. I have the board of agents, I'm doing these auditions, I can audition as much as I want to, but I'm making it work because I'm ever positive. And he was like, oh, well, that's not everyone's story, so I wouldn't share that.

And I felt silenced in that moment, like instantly silenced and very angry and upset. And the first question I asked, you know, of course, because my brain can't stop asking questions. The first question I asked is, well, why isn't that everybody's story? What isn't that what people were doing? And I realized I just assumed like we're all just like out here making it the best that we can, but some people quite clearly were not. And I decided to go against his advice, and instead of keeping quiet about it, I started to publish a blog about it. And I started publishing what I had been journaling in the form of blog posts on my blog, auditioningmom.com. And I realized that it wasn't enough for me just to tell my stories of how I'm making it work because he clearly was protecting someone.

I mean, he was saying it as though he were looking out for me and like trying to protect all of us, like it was good advice. And I was like, well, then I just need to find as many stories as possible from other people. And so I started the series called What She Looks Like, where I was interviewing other moms in the arts, and I actively sought out moms who weren't doing it anymore, moms who had, you know, negative experiences and negative stories, and sometimes they would write me back, they're like, I don't think you want my story because it's not funny or positive. It's not a feel-good ending or right, it's not a how I'm making it work. And I was like, no, no, that's exactly—sorry. I think Sassy just woke up, so my husband's gonna come through and grab her real quick.

[31:16] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Okay, so I'm sorry for that interruption.

[31:18] Leah Walsh: No, not at all. But you were talking about your blog.

[31:22] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Um that's so interesting that that guy at the Christmas party—he was obviously referring to someone in his life, but I'm just surprised that he was as aware of someone doing the parenting thing.

[31:35] Leah Walsh: A lot of single folks don't even think about it until it happens to them one day.

[31:40] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Right, exactly. And I do think that's what it came from. It came from him seeing someone fall away because of these, you know, parenting responsibilities. And what I realized, which was later confirmed by this beautiful research done by the Wesley Centers for Women, but I was like, we're thinking it's good advice to tell women just to like keep their stories to themselves because they're too different. Like that is Tech's book, how misogyny and discrimination persists. Like, don't we know that? And like I was telling somebody the other day, I was like, I want classic forms of control. Like that's why we haven't progressed, is because we haven't been allowed to get messy with our stories. We're not telling the truth that the reason why some people make it is because of luck and or privilege and or hard work, but there's a bigger reason why some people don't make it, and that's because there are no support systems in place.

Like I'm more interested in why people don't make it than why people do now. And that was the big transition for me. Um yeah, so I started to research, like voraciously reading about support systems and Ma'am Ireland became one of my idols organizations and then there's Pippa UK who did this incredible study on parents and the arts. And I wrote about them for HowlRounds, and after writing about them, my friend Jill Harrison, who is a director here in Philadelphia and creates an incredible community for directors called Directors Gathering, she said, well, what if—what about starting something like that in the US? And it just clicked as exactly what we needed, and in four months, we launched in three cities on the East Coast.

And by December, we should have about 10 cities launched or ready to launch. And the idea is that these are chief reps creating chapter cities that are gathering the stories of their communities so that the resources that we build reach them. And so that while they activate those resources, they can engage the theaters and the performing art institutions in their community to develop those resources as well, like tangible support systems that reach where they are. And the reason is because, you know, everything that had been done for the majority of things I should say that had been done for parents up to that point is how to make it work, and like telling individuals, like, here's—let's go back to that word productivity.

Here's how you can be a more productive mother. You know, did you ever try waking up at 5 a.m. and getting work done before the baby wakes up? And it's like, yes, I did. I wanted to die because I had been up till two feeding her. And it's like all of these ideas of like how to be a more productive mother and artist, how to be a more productive mother and professional. And if you were just more productive, you could get in front of the right people at the right time, and if you saved enough, you could afford the babysitter. But when I looked at it, I was like, but we're all already doing those things, and I am privileged in so many ways, and it is still hard. So I know that anyone who lacks even one of the points of privilege that I possess could fall through at any time.

Because I already felt like I could fall through at any time if I didn't like constantly keep myself, you know, auditioning, reaching out to people saying, like, I'm still present, I'm still here, I haven't gone off the earth. And I was like, well, we just—we need to bridge the gap. And so for me, that became the mission for PAL is to have conversations with individuals and institutions to say, like, why—why don't you have support? And what we found is that the majority, you know, what we actually found is that there was a handful of institutions who were already doing incredible work. Like Elevator Repair Service in New York has been supporting parents for over a decade, like putting childcare into the budget, doing whatever they want.

And I was like, oh, people need to know about that. Because then there was a handful of people who were like, no, it's not sustainable, we don't need to do it, like actively discriminating against parents and like shutting them out. But everyone in between was really just either too scared to engage or ready to engage and didn't know where to start. And so we started to highlight institutions with the PAL recognition awards where you can nominate your theater for family-friendly practices so that people can find those theaters, those theaters can gain recognition for it. And then we also started the childcare grants, which would help the individuals. And we said what we want to do is we want to create a bridge between the institutions who want to support parents and parents who need that support.

And so we started to develop the handbook of best practices, which is a collection of interviews with individuals and institutions who have created supported best practices, and then we—what we're doing is we're breaking it down to itemize what the systems are so that they can be replicable. And that's why this past fall we partnered with the Playwrights Realm because the producing director Roberta Pareda, her idea was to create a production that was as radically parent inclusive as possible, and it became like a first case study for our handbook. And now we're hosting our first national summit, right, at the public on December 6th to engage with institutions who are ready to have this conversation to say, okay, what's going well for you?

What are you still struggling with, and what's the next step that you want to ask questions about? And we realized that the best advice we can give each other is the opposite of the advice I was given, which is to talk about it as much as possible. Because that's how we're gonna find out like who has good ideas that we can share and swap with.

[37:02] Leah Walsh: Yeah. And who needs us, who needs our good idea. And I just think it's gonna—I know it's gonna create a more sustainable system for our field and not just for mothers and parents, but what we realize is that within the community, all the obstacles that come from implicit bias and all the need for intersectional advocacy and allyship applies to parenting as well, to where it's not just about helping parents, it's about saying, how are you helping black mothers specifically?

[37:36] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: How are you helping single mothers? How are you helping parents who have children with special needs? And those conversations are going to be too scary if we're not even ready to have a conversation about supporting parents at all. But we're ready to have those conversations when we recognize our field is hemorrhaging women and not having high retention rates for people of color and it's trying to be more inclusive to people with diverse abilities, but we're failing. And the reason is because we're not accepting the fact that all of these factors are interconnected within the lives and lifestyles of human beings. And so if there's any topic that we're afraid to address, like parenting, we are already cutting ourselves off from the very people we think we're helping.

[38:15] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[38:15] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: And so we want to continue to rip the tape of violence off of these stories so that we have to engage with them and then not leave the institutions just hanging with this, you know, call to action to say, like, okay, now we've collected systems and structures that might help you do this so that we can partner with them too to create that support, which at the end of the day is gonna support the artist.

[38:40] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[38:41] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: That's incredible. I'm so excited just listening to you talk about that. It's so exciting. I mean, and just so I'm so excited how many people are saying or like coming out of the woodwork to say yes and coming out of the woodwork to say this is what we've been doing, we want to talk about it. Because I think, like you said, it can just be so isolating and silencing if you feel like, oh, I want to have a family, but I have to do it in secret and just exactly and just if I want to do that and I'm putting that burden on myself, then that's my own fault in this career, you know. I should be giving everything I have to my career.

[39:20] Leah Walsh: Totally.

[39:21] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Um, yeah, that's amazing. Um, I had my one of my classmates from Juilliard, Metchia Haran Law, was in the Playwrights Realm production.

[39:29] Leah Walsh: Oh yes, of course.

[39:30] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: So I went to see it, and um, one, I was just so impressed reading about all the initiatives that they were doing, but then also talking to her about the specifics of their rehearsal schedule, and she was caregiving an ill family member, and that she got to benefit from those practices as well. Um, just beautiful and inspiring and made me want to support anything that they ever do.

[39:53] Leah Walsh: Exactly.

[39:54] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: You know what I mean? Absolutely, and that's the thing. We if we want to expand this conversation to talk about elder care and caring for family members, and the reality is just because we are a field that's claims to be interested in stories of the human experience or stories that are told by human beings live. And in order to succeed at that, we have to take care of the human beings who are contributing and participating. And too often there's this idea of being dispensable as an artist, or this idea of like, I did this to myself, this is for me to make up, you know, and nobody is telling the theater like you're in charge of my kid, but I am saying, like, you're bringing me on as a contributor in a society with no socioeconomic structure to support the citizens that I'm contributing to it. We're not making theater in a vacuum. Like, where do you stand on this side of the argument? Like, should we be supporting women in all their lifestyle obligations?

[40:46] Leah Walsh: I mean, however you answer that question, it's gonna be how you budget and distribute your resources to your artists.

[40:54] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: And so this summit is being attended by people associated with institutions. Primarily, there are some individuals who are attending to um to engage in the conversation. Um, some people who are doing research on the topic, um, some people who are hoping to spread the word to institutions um where they live. So um that's the permit, but there is a happy hour um co-hosted by Art New York from five to seven. Um, and that's attended by uh anyone at all. Um, but the theme is motherhood and leadership, and it's really just an intimate event for anyone to come and engage. And there'll be child care provided on site, there's a lactation space, um, and children are welcome in the room just to talk about what it's like making things in this field.

[41:41] Leah Walsh: That's amazing.

[41:42] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Yeah. Um, have you had any artistic mentors who have been important to you in your career? Whether they be people who you've seen be parent artists or not.

[41:53] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Yeah, I will say one of the um a few people, and one of the people I will mention for short is the first story that came to mind when I was, you know, parenting in isolation, I guess, is the way to say it, is um when I was in grad school, like well before I knew I knew it was far from the time I was ready to have kids. I was in grad school, I guess I was engaged. That was like the closest I was to you know creating like a life path that direction, but I was standing in the light, um, literally, not necessarily metaphorically, but I guess metaphorically as well, um, during a tech rehearsal and just like holding my spot, and there was an assistant stage manager next to me, and we're just like making conversation, and something came up where she mentioned, you know, how Sarah Ruhl um was feeding her twins in rehearsal, and I was like, She's wait, what?

And like fireworks went off in my heart, and I was like, that sounds like the coolest rehearsal. She was like, uh, because I also like really appreciate dismantled systems, and she and she was like, Yeah, yeah, and it you know, it goes great, and I'm sure that you know there are things to work out, but like she just did it, and I was like, that is incredible. And she was already like an artistic hero to me, but that's when she became like a hero of womanhood for me, that she was able to bring that part of her life into the space and still be who she was. And then the storm right like disappeared in the back of my mind, and I didn't think about it again until around when I was pregnant, like close to birth, and I was and and that came back as a memory, and I was like, Oh my gosh, that's right.

That's what this is now. I'm on that path now, and I know it informed my decisions. Um, and then um a few years later, I was on the Broadway Con panel um on parenting, and I was on panel with her, and I got to meet her in person. I was like, gosh, you have no idea your decision. I was like, your decision influenced me in such positive ways, and now she's part of our advisory board for PAL and has provided an interview, her handbook, and it's just on motherhood and mentorship, actually. Which is really incredible.

[44:10] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: And then I would say the other person is my sister, who is a single parent, and I saw her pursue theater in every way she possibly could. Um even through single parenthood, which is you know, I'm like, well, I solo parent, you know, like that's tricky or whatever, but single parenting, these are the individuals who like they deserve for the village to rally around them as much as possible. I mean, just the incredible sacrifices that that they make, and and I saw her make those sacrifices, work the multiple jobs, and then do everything she could to get herself into rehearsals and her daughter into rehearsals to have those experiences and to perform and to direct, and that like that level of sacrifice to be involved in in theater, whatever cost.

I was like, I need to remember this. That like I don't know if I have what it takes. I'd be like, Well, she and what can I do to to match that? And you know, what can this is it's not just about what can I do to match that, but also like what can we do to change that, you know? Because so much of the work that we do, and I'm sorry for crying on a podcast, no worries, but like so much of what we do, you know, has to do with like the theater family and all of us collaborating and bonding together, but you know, it it just it doesn't mean anything if we are not considering what is the greatest need of the person in the room with us. Like that's our standard right there. Not like what's the average need, like we should talk about what is the greatest need in the room, the greatest access need, and how do we meet that?

And when we have that conversation, we we will meet all the others. Not to take it back to that, but that's yeah, that's been a big um influence in this in this journey when I realized you know what privilege meant in terms of my artistic pursuit.

[46:17] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: And then I will say, um, just as a performer and an artist, some of the actresses I think who are amazing are Viola Davis and Cate Blanchett and um of course Meryl Streep, but largely because these are women who um have so much uh fire uh in in their truth telling. Like there is a there's a power to them that's unapologetic, even when they're vulnerable. And I I just um I'm really I'm drawn to that and I relate to it very much in the way that art speaks to me. So yeah. To answer your question in three ways.

[46:58] Leah Walsh: Amazing answer.

[46:59] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Um, are there any lessons that you've learned in the last couple years that you're really proud of?

[46:59] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Yes, um that's all done is better than perfect thing that keeps splitting around. I learned that it's true. Um I had to get myself to do it.

[47:21] Leah Walsh: Were you a perfectionist in your past?

[47:24] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Yeah, and I would say I'm still a perfectionist, but it's a daily choice to not fulfill it. Um yeah, like perfectionism can be so deceiving because it's not real. Um yeah, so perfectionism is uh is a tasty treat. It's a carrot that dangles in front of me, and I'm like, just don't walk. Just get it done. Sit where you're and get it done. Also, going back to your word productivity, what does that mean? And before it used to mean perfection to me. But now that it just means to engage outwardly, it's it can be accomplished. Um the other lesson I would say um is uh invest in friendship. I'm yeah, I'm very self-sufficient, but I'm starting to realize that that doesn't mean I have to be.

[48:18] Leah Walsh: Yeah, that's a good one.

[48:21] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Yeah, like I I have I have choice in in that realm. Um, and then I guess the other thing is I'm trying to think how to put this when for some reason around the time when um the the past couple of months, around the time we went to Hartford, when I grade opened the fridge before I left to see if I I like needed anything, my daughter would come up and she would say, Did you get something to drink? Did you get something to eat to take with you? And I was like, Oh, actually, I did forget my water, but thank you for that. And and yes, I do have less. She's like, Okay, great. And I like, and I I tried to trace it back, and I can see like my husband and I doing that for each other, and not then to like receive it from like such a tiny creature with like authentic, genuine concern.

I was like, oh whoa, love is contagious. Like love like behavior is learned. And and I think that that's why I I offered that um that investing in love is like my my standard of productivity is because very recently I've seen learned behaviors in them that are loving and also probably not some positive ones that I have, but like the learned behaviors that are loving, I can really trust that it's reaching them. So like just love is contagious. If like if I just like give it, it might not show up for a little bit, but one day your five-year-old will ask if you grabbed your lunch, and you're like, you really care if I'm gonna eat today, and that is like so beautiful because that's not your job.

[49:58] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: That's not you know your obligation, but you're looking at me like you know that's how you say I love you to someone, and it's yeah, so love is contagious. That's what I would I guess how I would put it.

[50:10] Leah Walsh: Um there are a couple of questions I usually ask at the end, but before we get to that, is there anything that I that you really wanted to talk about that I haven't touched on?

[50:19] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Oh no, this has been a wonderful conversation. I feel like I've monopolized the time a little bit, maybe.

[50:24] Leah Walsh: Oh, I mean that's it's that interview. So it's designed to be that way a little bit.

[50:30] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: I was curious, how do you how you define the dark place?

[50:35] Leah Walsh: I mean, it's it really is truly different for anybody.

[50:39] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: I think for me, a lot of times it manifests in that that self-doubt and that comparing to others and talking to myself in a way that I would never let anyone I love talk to themselves, that sort of thing.

[50:54] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[50:55] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Yeah, and and like you said, like getting to that point of like, well, was I ever good at this? Should I be doing this? Is everything a lie? Is it all a lie? Is it a real one? I mean, that's you are you've gone down this path for a while now.

[51:09] Leah Walsh: Yes.

[51:10] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Yeah, thank you for that.

[51:12] Leah Walsh: Yeah, for sure. You know, it's interesting, especially when I found out I was having a daughter, like something about my feminism, which I had, you know, and internalized for a very long time, registered in a different way. And when you know, and she can be whoever she wants to be, but she's like very proudly a young woman and believes that she is an adult woman, and so she's like in charge. But this idea of I knew when I was pregnant with her that she would know when I was lying about believing in yourself and um that you have every right to walk into every room, like all of these like feminist like mottos, yeah. Like I internalized, but I like really struggled with um activating for some reason I knew that she would know when I was lying. And I was like, I need to I need to believe these in order for me to teach them to her, and so this idea of you know, um yeah, I don't know that you put it that way, but you were lying, yeah.

[52:19] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Absolutely, absolutely. If I'm like you you deserve to walk into any room you enter, and and I still have that self-doubt, I knew that it was gonna read to her. I mean, I also believe that children are truth tellers um naturally, so they pick up on that, but it something about motherhood allowed me to let go of that from perfectionism, recognize the dark place to be those areas of self-doubt, and then say telling the truth to myself isn't just about myself, it's how it's how I talk to other people. It influences the way I engage with people who look up to me. Um so that's been I guess that connects to like what I learned before, but it's nice to hear that the dark place speaks to you like that as well.

[53:02] Leah Walsh: No, I mean, and it definitely makes me re-evaluate constantly like the things that the things that maybe I've been holding on to too long that I I definitely don't want her to see me do, or the the victim mentalities or the the beating myself up or things like that that I'm like you know, I need to figure that out now.

[53:23] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Yeah, there's not time anymore. She's here and she's gonna be learning that from me, you know.

[53:28] Leah Walsh: Totally thank you so much for explaining her for blowing up. I almost want you to say that without the sound interrupting it in the background. Thank you for telling me you're welcome to get your star. But but it's a that's so much better said, Yes, the I I kinda want you to say it again, but yeah, those things that I had a hard time letting go of. Um I mean, and there's something valuable I'm sure in her seeing me figure those things out in real time, but it's also like thank you, my love. Um, but it's also a little bit like oh time's up, I should just get over that now.

[54:05] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Totally. And I I haven't figured it out yet, but I'm working on it.

[54:09] Leah Walsh: 100%.

[54:10] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: No, a hundred percent. Like I tell people I'm like, there were insecurities that I struggled with like tooth and nail throughout my twenties that for some reason I don't know if it was like maybe I'm just too tired and I didn't have the resources, but like some petty things that I just felt fall off me. And I was like, right, because we're not doing that anymore, we're doing this new thing, and it was this bizarre wake up call. And and I feel like I can be honest about that because I'm never gonna be out of things to deal with. So I can t and I do a hundred percent prescribe to this idea that it is healthy for children to watch me work through uh what what I'm going through so that they learn what that process is for them.

[54:51] Leah Walsh: Right.

[54:51] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: I believe in that transparency a hundred percent. I also know that I can get rid of my bad habits because I'm not gonna run out of them. So it's like maybe it'll be more digestible to them if I like minimize and prioritize what I say.

[55:07] Leah Walsh: No that is so well said. Uh so I'll say thank you for that. Um okay so when you are feeling like you're in that dark place or uninspired are there any tangible things that you reach for again and again like books that you reread or music you listen to or places you go?

[55:26] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Yeah. This might take me uh a little bit but um also I usually start with the funny ones, the weird ones because those are easy to think of. Um and one is the documentary Every Little Step when they're doing the casting call for chorus line.

[55:41] Leah Walsh: Oh I haven't watched that and now I definitely want to.

[55:43] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: But I will say I have seen it about 12 times and um you know they very expertly weave the narrative around the song What I Did for Love that like this is this is what we do. This is what we live for and even when I'm you know, you know, part of my PR job when I first had my daughters, I had to like travel to different parts of the country, and I would take her with me, and then I would just like hire a babysitter for the event while I was there. Like I was so my day job did have some non-remote qualities at first that were difficult, but I mean, even when I'm like on the job for something that has nothing to do with my art, and I would like watch that documentary, I would be in their shoes, I would be in their Laducas, and I would know what it felt like to stand in that line and stand in that room, and even even empathizing with their heartbreak, it felt like home. I was just like, oh, yes, oh my god, and it's just so good. So that's a recommendation.

[56:47] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Um, and then I I also I I like I said, I find something that makes me laugh um on the outside, and and that's like parks and wreck, it's it's stupid stuff like that. Parks and wreck, um, funny videos on YouTube. Um oftentimes it's because my only resource I have is my phone, so that's where I find it. Um but uh but I also have to say that um talking to someone who knows me and knows what I want is really helpful, like taking the conversation outside of my head.

[57:23] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[57:24] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Like, and so my husband and my mom are two people, my sister would be as well, and now my brother who lives in New York. So, like I said, when I say like personal system of support with people like that, where you know, if I sit down with them and I say, I just don't know, like I feel completely tapped out of of any inspiration. I feel like I failed at XYZ today, I don't even feel good enough to, etc. And then they look at me and they believe I'm all the good things that I need to be. Um, there's a book, I don't know how it's dated, but I read a while ago called How to Be a Woman by Caitlin Moran, and um in it she talks about finding people in your life who are toxic is like looking at your reflection in a broken mirror, and you look shattered to yourself because you're with people who reflect back on you a shattered version of who you are.

And she's like, But when there's like a clean and perfect mirror of those people in your life who can reflect yourself back at you, you get a clearer assessment. And it was just it's just such a an image for me of of the people that I knew at the time and and who was helpful and who wasn't suddenly became so much clearer that the people worth my time and the and where I should go and those places of um of that darkness like you talked about. I was like, who has a clear reflection of who I am? Who's gonna tell me the truth, and not the like not the truth that like my inner critic is telling me, not seeking out the criticism, but I'm gonna seek out the truth of the good that I have to offer of the good that I've done before when I can't remember it myself. So I guess that's that's a book that's a moment in the book, um, and and that's a practice that um that I've developed probably too slowly, but that I do now.

[59:13] Leah Walsh: I love that. And then the final question is Have you seen anything recently of any art form that you want to recommend?

[59:21] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Oh, well, I will say our production of Cry It Out at Harvard Stage was amazing. It's so I recommend it in the past, and um it was so good. Um, but recently that I've seen I mean, really the only thing I can think of, it's it's from nature which is weird. But I recommend people look up the bees nests that look like works of art.

[59:48] Leah Walsh: Bees nests?

[59:55] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: Yeah, right. Okay, so I'm congratulations, I'm the weirdest person you've ever interviewed. But there are these bees nests that um are kind of going viral right now for looking like works of art, and apparently the bees build them out of like different color leaves and different materials and defecters, and they look like um a visual collage.

[1:00:16] Leah Walsh: Oh cool.

[1:00:17] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: And it is uh and and and I started off doing visual art in college, and which is you know, well, it made a graphic design later on, but the reason why it's important to me is because I'm seeing a creature other than myself as a maker create a a tangible structure that is so vibrant with color, and they're doing it for utility, but it's bringing me joy. And so there was like a relationship that I had with this image when I saw it, and it just like came across my Facebook feed, but where you know it's those moments of surprise inspiration where there's almost gratitude that that bee is just living their life because them just living their life like created something really beautiful.

[1:00:59] Leah Walsh: Well, Rachel, thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate it.

[1:01:04] Rachel Spencer Hewitt: No, I'm so glad, and it is such a joy to talk to you.

[1:01:08] Leah Walsh: Um thank you for listening to the Compass Podcast.

[1:01:19] Leah Walsh: If you find these conversations valuable to your life as an artist and would like to support the ongoing production of the Compass, please consider becoming a patron at patreon.com/slash the Compass Podcast. Pledges start at as little as one dollar a month. Anything you can give would be greatly appreciated. Also, if you have a moment, please rate or review in iTunes. Every little bit helps other listeners to find the podcast. Check out The Compass Podcast on Broadway PodcastNwork.com and TheCompassPodcast.com. I'd like to thank the following people for their generosity. The Compass Cover Art is by Kim Miller, music by Brandon Spieth, audio assistance from Nick Choxie, and a special thanks to Frankie J. Alvarez. See you next time.