This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Leah Walsh: Hi and welcome to The Compass, the podcast documenting the struggles of life as an artist.

[0:05] Leah Walsh: I'm Leah Walsh.

[0:07] Leah Walsh: My guest today is Sally Cade Holmes.

[0:10] Leah Walsh: Sally Cade is a producer.

[0:12] Leah Walsh: We know each other through the University of Evansville alumni community, although she was there right after I graduated, we didn't overlap.

[0:18] Leah Walsh: She has just been on fire as a commercial producer in recent years, including being involved in producing the Tony Award winning Hadestown, which sadly I still have not seen.

[0:28] Leah Walsh: I hope, I hope, I hope it'll come back after all of this settles down.

[0:33] Leah Walsh: As well as The Inheritance on Broadway.

[0:36] Leah Walsh: She was involved with producing that.

[0:38] Leah Walsh: She has recently struck out on her own instead of working for another company, and you can find out more info about her and her work at SallyKateHolmes.com.

[0:48] Leah Walsh: She just has a fantastic energy, the kind of person you want to be in a room with.

[0:54] Leah Walsh: And I was especially excited to hear about, even though we recorded this over FaceTime in mid-March, shortly after we all started sheltering in place.

[1:05] Leah Walsh: I was especially excited to hear about her passion for educating young theater professionals and students on what producers do and all the amazing different paths available in the theater that aren't necessarily being on stage, all the things that really offer a different kind of artistry and way of making the work happen.

[1:24] Leah Walsh: This is a really scary time.

[1:26] Leah Walsh: I hope you're doing okay, and I'm thinking about all of you sending a lot of love.

[1:31] Leah Walsh: Stay home, stay safe.

[1:34] Leah Walsh: And I hope you enjoy the 156th episode of The Compass.

[1:51] Leah Walsh: So the question I always start with is what do you do to try to keep from going to the dark side as an artist?

[1:51] Sally Cade Holmes: The dark side.

[2:07] Sally Cade Holmes: Such a good mix.

[2:09] Sally Cade Holmes: Just kidding.

[2:10] Sally Cade Holmes: I don't do that.

[2:11] Sally Cade Holmes: But therapy, no, real.

[2:23] Sally Cade Holmes: And I'm now like trying to find what pieces of that fall carry into producing.

[2:30] Sally Cade Holmes: And I found that sometimes the emotional element of that and like the thinking about how I feel about things, it's just it's presented differently in the performance world and in the business world.

[2:44] Sally Cade Holmes: So I'm constantly negotiating those things.

[2:46] Sally Cade Holmes: So sometimes it feels like I don't even acknowledge the dark side, but we're going there.

[2:51] Sally Cade Holmes: So for me, it's a constant question of like, how do I actually feel about these things?

[2:56] Sally Cade Holmes: How do I feel like this is teetering on a dark side?

[3:00] Sally Cade Holmes: Um, and I think that's actually the healthy question for me.

[3:04] Sally Cade Holmes: Uh, because I if I get too tied up in um in how I, you know, uh it's easy to fall down a spiral, I think, um, and just get into my emotions when in reality it has to be like there has to be action taken.

[3:23] Sally Cade Holmes: So at a certain point, it is a skill to say, you know what, I'm gonna pause this right now, I'm gonna take the action, and then I will deal with it outside of this moment.

[4:30] Sally Cade Holmes: Um, which is unique and I think uh like that is part of my art is how to negotiate those things.

[4:30] Sally Cade Holmes: Yeah, because it really it's these things are expressed in like a different language in the side of the business you're in now.

[4:30] Leah Walsh: That's fascinating.

[4:30] Leah Walsh: Totally.

[4:30] Leah Walsh: I love that you say it as action though.

[4:30] Leah Walsh: That's great.

[4:30] Sally Cade Holmes: 100%.

[4:30] Sally Cade Holmes: And that is uh that's all and sometimes I've learned in the past in the past few years, like the best action is actually inaction.

[4:30] Sally Cade Holmes: So like pause.

[4:30] Sally Cade Holmes: That's a very um sorry about that.

[4:30] Sally Cade Holmes: My mom called, so we can like No, it's fine.

[4:30] Sally Cade Holmes: I was actually saying the word pause in context, but it flipped for a second, and I was like weird.

[4:30] Sally Cade Holmes: Yeah, no, um, yeah, no, I I was a person who was like, we have to move the football down the field, we have to keep going, we have to da da da da.

[4:30] Sally Cade Holmes: Um and I realized watching these kind of behemoth shows grow that sometimes pausing is the action, um, which is unique and kind of uh antithetical to my type A nature.

[4:44] Sally Cade Holmes: Um and honestly, this moment in history we're in right now, this pandemic is like causing us as a culture to pause, I think.

[4:53] Leah Walsh: Yep.

[4:54] Leah Walsh: And breathe and sit still, and like what does that do for us?

[5:00] Sally Cade Holmes: What do I as a producer learn from this?

[5:03] Sally Cade Holmes: Like, how do we strategically employ the skill that we're all learning in the future?

[5:10] Sally Cade Holmes: All of these are questions I am asking myself.

[5:12] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[5:13] Leah Walsh: Well, should we just dive into that?

[5:15] Leah Walsh: It's the it's the thing that's in our faces right now.

[5:18] Leah Walsh: Let's just talk about that and then we'll continue on to greater career things.

[5:23] Leah Walsh: But oh man, how are you feeling about it?

[5:26] Sally Cade Holmes: I mean, I'm I waver between being able to think about the larger scale of it and um possible implications and just focusing on the day-to-day, which I'm totally privileged and fine and safe and with my family and refrigerator full of food, etc.

[5:48] Sally Cade Holmes: And working a day job right now that I'm able to work from home and continue getting paid for.

[5:51] Sally Cade Holmes: So I'm very lucky in that you know I've worked in the food industry in the past, and that's not the case right now.

[5:57] Sally Cade Holmes: Um so yeah, I I toggle throughout the day between those two things, and um I'm just trying to get out of the way to try to make it easier for other people, and I have no I you know we'll see what happens, but I have no desire to experience this sickness firsthand, so just trying to be careful.

[6:15] Leah Walsh: Totally, and it does help having a year and a half year old in the apartment, like who's just oblivious and is really happy that you know, my husband was doing a show for two months out of town, and I was usually at work.

[6:29] Leah Walsh: I work from home one day a week and out of the office four days a week, so usually at work, so she's kind of like thrilled that we're both around and like kind of crazed with the excitement of having both parents around, so it's like this is uh keeps you in the moment to make this equation, but um I I have a dog who is also I know who's I'm talking to somebody recently who like equated their child to a puppy, and I was like, Okay, cool, you did it.

[6:59] Sally Cade Holmes: Uh no, I could do it.

[7:00] Sally Cade Holmes: No, but yeah, pickle is very excited that I'm around.

[7:04] Sally Cade Holmes: And also, and also like talk about ways that I cope with the dark side.

[7:09] Sally Cade Holmes: He is one of those ways.

[7:10] Sally Cade Holmes: Like, like he is uh he's just like a lovely presence in my day-to-day life that is keeping me grounded and like reminding me I need to go outside uh and experience air.

[7:23] Sally Cade Holmes: Um so yeah, yeah, and and as far as like how how this pandemic is affecting what I am feeling and what I am doing, um, I keep having this little like hopeful silver lining piece of it that um what comes out of this will be uh a larger cultural conversation surrounding the issues regarding sustainability in our industry, like the fact that our industry has to stop for eight weeks and four to eight, and we don't know what the ramifications are.

[8:06] Sally Cade Holmes: I I mean I I feel as though we should be setting ourselves up for success in the future, using this as a template for like a disaster scenario, how how do we all work together to craft a better future so that this won't be a disaster?

[8:24] Sally Cade Holmes: You know, like I how can we all continue these dialogues that are happening right now to create a stronger industry?

[8:33] Sally Cade Holmes: Um, and I think that requires everybody coming to the table and everybody uh putting their listening ears on and um recognizing that we're all after the same goal, like we are all the producers, the actors, the stagehands, everybody is after the same goal of a healthy Broadway/slash theatrical community.

[8:54] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[8:55] Leah Walsh: When do you think that do you think that'll have to take place in hindsight?

[8:59] Leah Walsh: Or is it something that can is already starting now?

[9:02] Sally Cade Holmes: I think the conversations are happening.

[9:06] Sally Cade Holmes: Uh but I think it's gonna be partially in hindsight and partially as we well, everybody's in action mode.

[9:14] Sally Cade Holmes: Everybody's been like, how how do we stop the bleeding?

[9:17] Leah Walsh: Right.

[9:18] Sally Cade Holmes: Um so some of the foundational decisions that are being made now, I think will affect the hindsight.

[9:25] Sally Cade Holmes: Um I I think that people are thinking that way, which is exciting.

[9:31] Sally Cade Holmes: Um maybe a small silver lining.

[9:34] Sally Cade Holmes: Uh and I also think some great art is gonna come out of it.

[9:37] Leah Walsh: Oh, for certain.

[9:39] Leah Walsh: And I'm already just so inspired, even though as a parent, I haven't gotten to take advantage of a lot of it, but the things I'm seeing via Instagram of artists teaching classes and sharing their work and sharing their skills um with people already in this like first week that it's really hit is incredible.

[10:04] Sally Cade Holmes: It's so good.

[10:05] Leah Walsh: Um so we'll see what happens.

[10:08] Sally Cade Holmes: It's so good.

[10:09] Sally Cade Holmes: Ugh.

[10:10] Leah Walsh: We'll definitely be some good art coming out of it.

[10:13] Leah Walsh: But it is, you know, I don't know what the statistic is, but you always hear the frighteningly large statistic across the country of people saying that you know they're living paycheck to paycheck.

[10:23] Leah Walsh: Um, and that's gonna be scary to see the repercussions of it, but that's you know, that's definitely true a lot in the arts, just and it seems to be the way the um industry is built.

[10:39] Sally Cade Holmes: Like it's not that, oh, just you're not saving your money.

[10:42] Sally Cade Holmes: It seems like, no, this is the way this functions, and you have to be okay with it.

[10:46] Sally Cade Holmes: Like you're only getting paid enough to do this.

[10:48] Leah Walsh: Well, you work on a different scale than I do, but Broadway paychecks for the actors at least are larger than others.

[10:56] Sally Cade Holmes: Yeah.

[10:57] Sally Cade Holmes: I would also uh mention that like commercial producers don't make money unless the show is recouped.

[11:05] Sally Cade Holmes: So like I I am trying to figure out how to make money uh doing what I want to do with my life.

[11:11] Sally Cade Holmes: Um not just along the way.

[11:14] Sally Cade Holmes: You have to pay bills every month.

[11:16] Leah Walsh: Exactly.

[11:17] Leah Walsh: Exactly.

[11:17] Leah Walsh: So tell me some about that.

[11:19] Leah Walsh: Tell me some about how you're putting together the financial stuff.

[11:22] Sally Cade Holmes: Oh, sure.

[11:23] Sally Cade Holmes: Since you got out of school, like what sorts of day jobs, what sorts of ways do you work that out?

[11:29] Sally Cade Holmes: I um I was just thinking about my first day job right after undergrad because it has come back the connections I made there have like stayed with me for years.

[11:39] Sally Cade Holmes: Um my first job out of undergrad at 22 years old, uh, was working for uh bus extravaganza called The Ride that a lot of people Do you know Nate Miller?

[11:55] Sally Cade Holmes: Was he working yes too?

[11:57] Sally Cade Holmes: He was working there at the time because I was also working with Laura Ramaday producing a show that she was in.

[12:03] Sally Cade Holmes: Gotcha.

[12:04] Sally Cade Holmes: And then we ended up OBMP um lab together as producers.

[12:08] Sally Cade Holmes: It was very this job has connected me to so many people.

[12:12] Sally Cade Holmes: Um yeah, I was an audience services agent, which meant I put people on the bus, my friends and I would go drink a four logo and then get people off of the bus.

[12:24] Sally Cade Holmes: Oh god.

[12:25] Sally Cade Holmes: It was it was it was the early 2010s.

[12:30] Sally Cade Holmes: Uh yeah, that was irresponsible, but it was fun.

[12:34] Sally Cade Holmes: And um, so that was a survival gig.

[12:38] Sally Cade Holmes: I was like an HR um manager at this internet marketing company that like they gave me way too much responsibility way too soon.

[12:48] Sally Cade Holmes: I was like, I'm a liability to everyone.

[12:51] Sally Cade Holmes: I have a theater degree.

[12:53] Sally Cade Holmes: And I'm a good people.

[12:57] Sally Cade Holmes: Like, that's not how you were supposed to get this job.

[13:00] Sally Cade Holmes: Um, I was the temporary like office assistant, and the HR director just liked me, so she was like, come work with me.

[13:10] Sally Cade Holmes: I was like, sure.

[13:11] Sally Cade Holmes: And then she left on maternity leave, and I was like the interim HR, the head of HR.

[13:16] Sally Cade Holmes: I was like, this is not okay.

[13:19] Sally Cade Holmes: Um, yeah, and then I left, I did grad school for a little while, um uh in arts administration because I had just found producing, and I was like, okay, cool, I have this degree in like theater generalism, which I love, but I should probably specialize in something management.

[13:40] Sally Cade Holmes: So I went to this program for arts administration in Boston, and it afforded me the opportunity to do an internship at Williamstown, which then afforded me the opportunity to meet my future boss, and once I got a gig working on Broadway, I was like, well, I'm not gonna go finish my master's degree.

[14:03] Leah Walsh: Um, I see.

[14:05] Sally Cade Holmes: Yeah, so I took a casual five and a half years off. And then in the past few months, I've left this study job that I loved at Tom Kurthy Productions. I was the associate producer there, and I have gone out on my own, and I am trusting this invisible safety net that hopefully will weave its way under me. I totally acknowledge my privilege and my ability to do that. But I also in that decision was like, this could be a great time for me to go back and finish this degree that I started five and a half years ago. Well, like seven years ago, actually. And you know, I weirdly am able to weather this pandemic a little less stressfully because I have some student loan money that I'm like sitting on because I'm back in school. So in a weird way, I'm like it's working out okay.

[15:06] Leah Walsh: Yeah, it's working out okay. So when you were working for someone else as a producer, can you just give me an idea of like how large that office is?

[15:17] Sally Cade Holmes: Oh yeah. I feel like so. When I started working there, it was I started part-time and there were two other part-time folks. They were primarily the other two part-time people were primarily artists because that's who this producing office draws, like people who are passionate about the work, and I think that's actually what gives Tom Kurthy Productions an edge. Like they are incredible and filled with artists and people who know how to speak with artists. I was the one who kind of switched into management mode, but I could still do the, listen, I love to talk about plays, so that was how it started and then as we have more shows on Broadway the office kind of grew and my role grew and what I end up saying is as an associate producer like Tom who is the president of the company had to be in like seven million places at once and I would take like 13 of those and represent in those. Yeah, but across the board just kind of a catch-all position that was great and I learned so much, I'm sure an unbelievable amount.

[15:47] Leah Walsh: Do you feel like it sounds like a lot of the stuff that you've learned has just been hands-on on-the-job training which makes sense that sounds like like yeah I this is a thing that I struggle with in our industry actually because the path to do what I want to do feels very much like luck is required.

[17:11] Leah Walsh: What is your experience of going the grad school route now and like picking up things that way as opposed to the luck that you've had in learning on the job side of your career so far?

[17:26] Sally Cade Holmes: Yeah.

[17:26] Sally Cade Holmes: Um, I at this point, grad school is to get the paper. Like I have learned a lot of hands-on, a lot through hands-on experience. It's also tricky because this graduate degree is in arts administration, which is a very different thing than commercial producing. There is the Commercial Theater Institute, which you know is run by the Broadway League or in partnership with the Broadway League, I'm not actually sure of that relationship, but they do a good job of like the basics of commercial producing. But it's like a professional program. Part of me is curious what this industry would look like if people were to go into undergrad and existing graduate programs and actually kind of lift the veil of opacity surrounding producing.

My crusade at this moment, and hopefully a way that I could make a little money to live off of, is to figure out how to introduce producing vocabulary to BFA and MFA students, who are actors, playwrights, directors, so that we can all galvanize around each other once people have graduated and recognize that yes, you're gonna have to self-produce. Yes, these are the conversations you're gonna have with producers. Like, if you hear this, that might be a red flag. Like, you don't want to work with that person. Like, here are and here is the art of producing as well. I think that so many of these educational institutions, because of the opacity surrounding what I do, think of me like sitting above the Belasco theater smoking a cigar, like counting my coins, like you know, what Scrooge McDuck. And it's like, that's not what I do.

[19:26] Leah Walsh: Yeah. I mean, to be honest, yeah, there's just like a lack of knowledge, I think. I don't, especially on huge productions, you think of the producers, you're like, oh, they're the money person. I don't know how they got the money, I don't know how they brought the money, but somehow they're the person with the money.

[19:41] Sally Cade Holmes: Right. I think that's an amazing mission. Plus, yeah, I'm sure it would just lead to better collaborations. And also, like, I know that you kind of had this with Puffs, and it's the kind of working relationships that I love the best, like collaborating with your peers and kind of growing up the ladder together.

[20:01] Sally Cade Holmes: Oh, totally. That's my idea of what producing is. It's developing relationships with artists until we're all at a point where we can jump off the cliff together and do something massive. Um, that's what it is. And in the meantime, like, yes, I have to find the investors. Sure, that's like that's like a thing that has to happen, and a thing that luckily I've been in the right places at the right times to have some very passionate investors. And that will hopefully knock on wood continue. Um, so it's really just trusting your artists and finding those relationships and supporting the work that comes out of them.

[20:49] Leah Walsh: So can you talk a little bit about how Puffs came about and how that what that what role that played in your stepping stones?

[21:02] Sally Cade Holmes: Yeah, so I Puffs existed, like I was not an early team member on Puffs. The group, Chris McCarthy Parker, a dear friend, on the podcast. I don't know the number off the top of my head.

[21:20] Leah Walsh: Yes. We love.

[21:21] Sally Cade Holmes: I'm having a COVID-19 digital date with Kristen and a bunch of our college friends after this.

[21:29] Leah Walsh: Lovely.

[21:30] Sally Cade Holmes: Um, so I knew Kristen was attached to it. I had seen it at the Electra Theater, but I was not a part of it yet, and it had commercial producers attached to it. And then I was approached after they got kicked out of the Electra Theater and were moving to New World Stages if I wanted to come on board as a co-producer. And I was like, oh my gosh, yes. Number one, the terms were really good. So like it was a priority loan, which meant that my investors would put in their money and also get their money back fastest. So that felt like a really safe endeavor because commercial off-Broadway is really risky. Even though Puffs had a lot going for it. Right. It's still a risk. So I jumped on board at that point, for a million reasons.

The show is incredible, it's brilliant, it's brilliantly directed, it's brilliantly written. It was like right on the zeitgeist in that moment. It checks the box that I have on every show that I'm a part of right now, which is some sort of hopefulness, some sort of optimistic worldview. I'm just in a space in my career where that is important to me. So I jumped on board and I was walking with David Carpenter, the lead producer, and we were chatting about merch and how I was really curious about that world and I had been the point person on merch for another show, but from the producer side, and he was like, well, would you be interested in doing it for Puffs? And I was like, sure. And I did. And that was my first merchandise client. So I have this other side business now because of Puffs.

[23:25] Leah Walsh: And when you say that, is that like designing the merch or what does that involve?

[23:31] Sally Cade Holmes: It's so my dear sweet younger sister is a graphic designer who I that is so handy. Thank you to this, yeah. She's not that sweet. Also, she got a really good deal. I like negotiated against myself there. I didn't have money to pay her a fee up front, so I gave her a royalty on the sales of this one very popular shirt, and I was like, damn. Like I am paying her so much for this, and I finally just stopped sending checks. We have to stop. I'm not getting her a Christmas present because I can't afford it because I'm paying her so much for this t-shirt. Um anyway, so she did the designs.

[24:15] Leah Walsh: Okay, great. Well, I love that you have your hands in so many different pies. Like that's a great way to like keep diversified and like always be growing and learning along the way.

[24:30] Sally Cade Holmes: I think so. It's I struggle with how to manage my time a lot. Like how to devote enough to each project so that everybody feels that they are getting my full attention.

[24:45] Leah Walsh: How do you take time off? Are you figuring that out? Or do you feel like you work all around the clock?

[24:52] Sally Cade Holmes: I'm pretty good at saying, mm-mm, I'm done around six or seven, you know. And then obviously I go see a show, which is work, but not actually because I love it.

[25:02] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[25:03] Sally Cade Holmes: I think that I see the societal trend of like working really hard as like something that is cool, and I have no desire to be a part of that. I'm all about work smarter, not harder. Like, I'm sorry, if I can solve something in two minutes, why would I spend 20 minutes spreading over it? Like that's my MO there.

[25:34] Leah Walsh: Yeah. What is, well you just talked about your sister, but what do your parents do? What do they think about you being an artist for your career?

[25:44] Sally Cade Holmes: Oh my gosh. My mom constantly. Because I've done a lot of things in my career, you know, I've done an HR director, I've been an audience services agent, I have dabbled in acting for a little while. I was in grad school and I was a freelance writer for a hot second. And my mom is constantly like, see, that's what a theater degree will do. You can act like you're anything. And I'm like, okay, sure. We'll go with that. Um, so I think they're very proud of the fact that I'm treating this artist's life as an entrepreneur, as an exercise in entrepreneurship. I think that if I were spending more time, I think they would struggle if I were only acting or only directing or only like I think they're really proud of the fact that I do a lot of different things. But they're fine, they're good. They're really proud of both of us.

[26:59] Sally Cade Holmes: I'm sure it must have been exciting when they came to see these Broadway shows that you were involved in.

[27:05] Sally Cade Holmes: Oh yeah, they were my dates to Anastasia, which was my first Broadway show that like my name was above the title, and they came to see Hadestown.

[27:19] Sally Cade Holmes: They're big fans.

[27:20] Sally Cade Holmes: They're big fans.

[27:24] Leah Walsh: What's the community like for producers? Do you feel like you're in communication with a lot of other of your peers?

[27:33] Sally Cade Holmes: Honestly, we're also head down siloed, like working all the time on our individual projects. That I always know they're there. Like I have some deep, wonderful connections to my peers. Uh, but it's kind of this trust that like if you need somebody, you can ask for it. There's rarely like, uh, hey, how you doing text until now. I think that this pandemic is like going to cause a revolution in communication almost. Like I've been FaceTiming with peers, I've been texting these people who are incredibly ambitious, who all of a sudden have had the rug ripped out from under them and being like, How are you doing? Like there is this galvanizing moment uh between like I think friend groups and also peer groups.

[28:28] Leah Walsh: Well, hopefully it'll bring on some radical empathy in this country.

[28:33] Sally Cade Holmes: Honestly, honestly, my parents who are Republicans in South Carolina said the same thing.

[28:40] Leah Walsh: Really?

[28:41] Sally Cade Holmes: They were like, Yeah, they were like, This, I think this is a sign that we all need to come together.

[28:46] Leah Walsh: I was like, really? Okay. All right. So in your quest to inform young artists and to are you interested? I'm I don't want to put words in your mouth. Are you interested in mentoring younger producers?

[29:02] Sally Cade Holmes: Oh, absolutely. That's like in that quest, um, how are you making yourself a resource? How are you putting yourself out there?

[29:14] Sally Cade Holmes: Uh, it's really interesting. I would say, like, three months ago, I really didn't like that label mentor. I actually my good friend and colleague who worked in my office with me would like tease me and be like, You're my mentor. And I'd be like, No, I'm not, we're peers. Um, but I do feel like since I have left like my studied job and I'm doing this on my own, there has kind of been a shift in. I don't know if it's confidence, I don't know if it's just like I have to be more front footed, but something about that has made me feel confident owning the label mentor. Um and speaking with people and also recognizing like I know shit. Like I actually do know things.

[30:01] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[30:02] Sally Cade Holmes: Um the way that I employ that. I actually uh Erica Holland has this organization that I just joined, and I'm really excited to do that. Um I can't remember the name off the top of my head, but it's gonna be great.

[30:20] Leah Walsh: Let's Google it.

[30:21] Sally Cade Holmes: Let's Google it.

[30:22] Leah Walsh: Let's Google it, guys.

[30:24] Sally Cade Holmes: I feel like I know what you're talking about, but I can't think what it is either.

[30:28] Sally Cade Holmes: Um it's really exciting, and I owe them an email. I'm saying that publicly. But it's all about connecting mentors, right?

[30:38] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[30:39] Sally Cade Holmes: Uh oh, Statera.

[30:42] Leah Walsh: Statera.

[30:43] Sally Cade Holmes: Statera arts.

[30:45] Leah Walsh: Yes.

[30:47] Sally Cade Holmes: Okay, cool. So I'm really excited to dive into that. Um, I am the co-leader of the WP Producers Lab, which here's the thing about mentorship. I learn more from those people than I think they learn from me. Like, hard stop, I uh am the luckiest person to be able to like just be in these producers' presence. Um so basically, mentoring is just like me learning things. Uh it's it's not a selfless act. Um, but yeah, the WP lab is a big part of what I do. Um, and then I recently started actually, today was the first time I've done this, and I'm kind of obsessed with it. I talked to a high school student for 30 minutes today just because I'm like, these kids are sitting at home, like doing homeschool stuff, being quarantined. I I'm sitting at home looking for, you know, gigs and um trying to basically trying to plan things that cannot be planned. Like I cannot plan when the LA version of my show can open because we don't know.

[31:54] Leah Walsh: Right.

[32:02] Sally Cade Holmes: So why would I spin my wheels and why not just speak to people who are passionate about this art form about like the industry things that I know? So I chatted with a high school student, um, and I kind of want to do more of that.

[32:15] Leah Walsh: Um how did you connect with that student?

[32:18] Sally Cade Holmes: A friend, a friend knew this young person who was excited about theater and said you guys should talk, and we did.

[32:29] Leah Walsh: So what sorts of advice did you give this student today as far as getting into producing? Since you were saying like the weird thing is that it takes a lot of luck. Like, what are some ways to get around that?

[32:44] Sally Cade Holmes: That's a great question. Uh this particular student, I I she was very much just curious about the industry as a whole. So my goal is to be sure young people know that there are other career paths that also involve art that are not, you know, that like yes, being on stage is wonderful and magical, and that's how most of us got involved in this art form. Um, but if I had known producing was a career option in undergrad, I probably would have pursued it earlier. Um, so that and and producing just to say, like, theater management is one thing. Producing feels different, it feels like a lot of educational institutions prepare you to go out and be in a nonprofit world, which is great, but I am curious on this other side.

Anyway, um, so uh opening up the worldview to be sure there is an acknowledgement of everybody listed on the title page of a Broadway show. There are marketing agencies, there are press offices, there are producing offices, there's like general managers, or all of these opportunities that are that are uh I would argue art. Um I take a very broad view of what that word means, uh, and I'm confident in that view. Um but yeah, so I told her that. I told her to look at the title page, uh, and then also everything is your relationships. That's that's what everything comes back to in my mind, right?

[34:31] Sally Cade Holmes: So that's the part that kind of takes some strategy and some luck together. It's like finding yeah, finding those genuine relationships, but figuring out which ones you really need, yeah, and also being open to all of them though. Like, I think there's a gen there has to be a genuine curiosity about human beings so that you can then and determine, like now I have this connection with this person. The question isn't like how will I use it? The question is like how does this person lead me? How do I meet this person? Like, um, I think that's an important articulation.

[35:16] Leah Walsh: Yeah, totally. Because I think sometimes people get swept up in quote unquote networking, and it can feel ugh, just like the idea of it feels very schmarmy and like people are using each other and you're not actually talking to each other.

[35:31] Sally Cade Holmes: So in I feel that we're moving past I feel we're in like a neo networking moment. Like or a post networking, where I hope so where there is a focus on authenticity. Cause there is nothing that turns me off more than just like knowing somebody is coming at me as a networking thing. I'm like, oh no.

[35:56] Leah Walsh: Do you feel like some of that is because of the rise of social media? Because I feel like when I graduated grad school, which was 10 years ago, it was still a little bit of like you need to present yourself in this specific way.

[36:12] Sally Cade Holmes: And then as Instagram and as like the world of social media as like an extension of you as an artist has grown, it's been more about like revealing yourself more than well, I guess there's a wide gamut, but I I would I would say it's even broader than that. I would say it's the internet as a whole. Like, I think of these kids that are in undergrad right now, and I think of me in undergrad. Oh my god. And I'm like, oh my god. And for producers, you have so many more tools at that age or that stage.

[36:50] Leah Walsh: Exactly.

[36:52] Sally Cade Holmes: And like they are asking questions that I did not know existed. Um so in that way, I think technology and the internet have like required more authenticity because we know more. There can't be a painted veneer. Um I think I'm hypothesizing, but I I think that's true. And I'm also just like in awe of students today. I wish I could go back and hang out with all of them and be a student as well.

[37:28] Leah Walsh: Um, are there any lessons you've learned either personally or professionally over the last couple of years that you're really proud of that you want to share?

[37:38] Sally Cade Holmes: Um I think that I think what I mentioned before about pausing is really important. I think um knowing that sometimes the best action is inaction is a skill that you can't be taught because you know, when when you graduate from the education corporation that some of our institutions are, it feels very like in order to get ahead, you have to be front-footed, you have to move, you have to like take action all the time. When in reality, like sometimes being too front footed will actually hinder you. Um so I think that's been a really really important goal. And then also to be nimble with definitions of success.

[38:30] Leah Walsh: Yes.

[38:31] Sally Cade Holmes: Uh that's super super important. Um, and I don't think I could have said that five years ago.

[38:38] Leah Walsh: Yeah. What are what is what looking like now?

[38:43] Sally Cade Holmes: Nowadays? Uh, yeah, for me, it is um staying staying in myself and confident in that in order to remain my own boss and chart my own path. Um, because at a certain point it would be easy to get a full-time job, and I have to keep reminding myself that's that's not what you want. Like you you actually want to be the one who is creating the full-time jobs for other people. Um and that ties it to, you know, um like slowing down, recognizing that success might not happen in five years, it might be decades from now, and that's okay. Um, and also what is success? In my in my view, that's just getting the ball like a yard down the field. Like it's it's remaining my own boss, it's being my own boss, it's all of those things.

[39:48] Leah Walsh: Um, I love that. Um was this transition, this big transition that you made from working for that other producer for such a long time into being your own boss. Was that something that you had been planning for for a long time? Or like what made you feel like this is the moment where I'm gonna take that step?

[40:12] Sally Cade Holmes: Yeah, 2016 was really, really seismic for me. The election in particular. Um, so uh I couldn't have been in a better place. Like, I volunteered for Hillary, I phone banked, I like ran an organization called Broadway for Hillary with a couple of my colleagues.

[40:31] Sally Cade Holmes: Um, and so the election happened, and I just like I was so supported and off of it. We were all, you know, the way everybody was, but like um it really unearthed a lot of things for me in terms of recognizing that I had been a rule follower my entire life, and like what does that get you? Uh asking about a woman's place in leadership scenarios, all of those things. So the next year I did my annual review, and I mentioned to my wonderful mentor boss, um, like I don't know how to do this. Like, I see no examples of and this was short-sighted of me at the time, but I was frustrated and I had gone through the election. I was like, I do not see many examples of women who have gone on, and like they haven't been independently wealthy, they then have like charted their own course in the commercial theater.

He then like mentioned some examples, and I was like, Yes, we love them. Um, but I was kind of in this moment of like hitting this ceiling, and it was also I was an associate, I've been an associate for a long time. The company had Tom's name on it, so I you know, there's no where to go really. Um, so I guess about a year and a half after that, uh we had another conversation, and I was like, Alright, at the end of this year, I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna go out on my own. Uh, and he was like, I think that's amazing, and I support you in every way, and like through this amazing going away party that I like, I don't know that anybody's ever done anything nicer for me. It was really spectacular. Um, but no, it was a lot of like dark nights of the soul being like how do I do this? Is this the right path? And how do I like chart this path for others?

[42:46] Leah Walsh: Yeah, that's incredible.

[42:50] Sally Cade Holmes: Yeah, I yeah, it was yeah, a lot of crying and typing my annual review. What a what a wonderful experience having that positive learning environment job for so long to like help help launch you into that next place.

[43:14] Sally Cade Holmes: Oh my gosh, I am the luckiest, truly, and that was all I mean, it was a relationship. Like, we were at Williamstown, this guy was trying to use the copier, and I was like, I got you, I know how to use the copier, and then we became friends, and then I asked him to coffee, and then he was my boss for five years. Like, incredible, yeah.

[43:37] Leah Walsh: I feel like people are gonna be mad at me if we don't talk about your two most recent Broadway shows.

[43:45] Sally Cade Holmes: Trying to think where to dive in.

[43:47] Leah Walsh: Uh yeah. How many producers are involved on a show like Hadestown or The Inheritance?

[43:54] Sally Cade Holmes: Um a lot. Uh both of us have a lot of producers. So it's also important to acknowledge that there are lead producers who are the people that are like making the decisions. Sorry, shut my door. Um who are making the decisions and shepherding the play long before it's coming to Broadway. Um so typically there are anywhere from one to four of those, and then there are a significant number of co-producers, um, because as Broadway gets more expensive, so do the number of co-producers. Um, The Inheritance actually is uh really interesting because the lead producers made a strategic move to bring on a very specific group of people that were cross intergenerational, um, a more diverse group than most shows, uh just based on the subject matter.

[44:57] Leah Walsh: That's awesome.

[44:59] Sally Cade Holmes: Yeah, it's really it's really spectacular and uh uh but you look above the title and there are a bunch of things. Um and I kind of love that. And I've made a lot of really lovely friends from that group of people. Uh Hadestown, there are fewer, but it's still a bunch.

[45:17] Leah Walsh: What is that collaboration like between the producers themselves on something like that?

[45:23] Sally Cade Holmes: Sure. I know these are very basic questions, but it really is like a mi what you do really is a mystery, I feel like to the rest of the theater community. Yeah, so um co-producers the goal is to be an ambassador for the show, in addition to raising your portion of the capitalization, which is required. Um, it is how do I go out there and sell tickets to people, talk about the show everywhere I go, um talk about it with my industry friends, like really representing the show. That's that's the co-producer's job. It's to be an ambassador uh everywhere.

[46:09] Leah Walsh: So do you feel like everyone is kind of in their own lane doing that, or did you guys did you feel like you were all collaborating in that effort?

[46:18] Sally Cade Holmes: Oh yeah. Uh uh I could speak to these two shows in particular. We have been incredibly galvanized, and uh the co-producers as a whole have all come together and wrapped their arms around these shows and each other, yeah, and said, all right, we're in this, because both of them were massive risks, right? Like I had a lot of trouble raising money for Hadestown because nobody knew what it was. It was breaking molds. Um people are very happy that they invested in it now, uh, but it was a hard sell. Uh The Inheritance wasn't actually a hard sell because so many people re that story resonates so deeply with so many people that I had people want who who didn't care, you know, if they would see a penny.

They wanted to be a part of this thing. Um, and the co-producers are the same way. We are we're in it for for the passion for this story. Um, yeah, it's it's been remarkable and The Inheritance I will say so that was my last show as the associate producer at Tom Kurthee Productions so I acted on it twofold I was both Tom's associate and a co-producer um so it and same with Hadestown so on The Inheritance though I'm really really proud of the work we've done um weaving the story into the community so we made a concerted effort to build deep relationships with the LGBT um organizations in the city uh so like we had the sponsor ticket initiative where people were able to donate money to a fiscal sponsor and we would give tickets to our community partners um which was incredible we had this cool lobby series where 30 minutes prior to part two we had uh the first one what was uh the video of GMHC came in and talked about the state of AIDS in America today like I I mean it was it was really spectacular and I'm really proud of the work we've done on that show I'm really sad it closed before the actual closing I know how anticlimactic it's I that's talk about therapy I'm gonna I'm gonna have to like unpack that in yeah yeah it's tough it's really really tough.

[48:55] Leah Walsh: Yeah it feels like I didn't get to say goodbye.

[48:59] Sally Cade Holmes: I know and you guys were fairly close, right? It was supposed to close this month, but just not when it did.

[49:05] Leah Walsh: Yeah, exactly.

[49:06] Sally Cade Holmes: Exactly.

[49:07] Leah Walsh: Yeah. How is that for you when you have shows that are long running, how is it for you with your workload when like you get something up and running and then you you've moved on to other projects, but I assume you're still like like with this drama that's happening now with Broadway being shut down, like you still need to be involved with whatever's happening with Hadestown, etc.

[49:26] Sally Cade Holmes: But there are these magical people called general managers who once a show is up and running are the heroes, truly. Um producers obviously are key to guiding the ship. Um but the general managers are often the ones making the day-to-day decisions on those shows. Um and and that's how it has to balance. There's there's no way one person could you're right, maintain for these long running shows.

[50:01] Leah Walsh: Right. Okay. Thank you. I know those were very technical questions.

[50:05] Sally Cade Holmes: No, I love I love talking about it.

[50:09] Leah Walsh: So when you do feel yourself going to that dark side or like the worn down, uninspired place. Are there any tangible things that you reach for again and again, like books you reread or music you listen to or like personal touchstones like that?

[50:28] Sally Cade Holmes: I am obsessed with the London Philharmonic recording of the carousel waltz. It is it is like what I go back, so it's the overture from the musical carousel. So specific. I love it. I don't know what it is about it. It I have this genre of music that I call music you can swim in, um, which I coined at college, uh, and it still checks out to this day. Um, and it's just one of those one of those pieces of music that I feel so inspired by, and I feel so filled with wonder when I listen to it. Um so, like that, and also memes. I'm I'm really into memes these days. It allows me to just like turn my brain on for a second, reset, and just like dive back into what I was doing. Laughter is very therapeutic.

[51:27] Leah Walsh: I love that.

[51:28] Sally Cade Holmes: Um, and then the last question is although it's an interesting time to be asking this. Uh, is there anything you've seen recently of any art form that you want to recommend? So could be could be theater, could be a movie, could be anything.

[51:46] Sally Cade Holmes: I think everyone under the sun should listen to 1619, the podcast. Um it's a New York Times podcast about uh the underpinnings of the US uh economy and how it is all inextricably linked to slavery. That I love it was revelatory and so human and important and wonderful. Um and then oh gosh, I feel like I I have so much. Um what else? I might just leave it at that right now because it's the first thing that popped in my mind, and now I have a million other things swirling in my head.

[52:28] Leah Walsh: But no, that's a good one.

[52:30] Sally Cade Holmes: Yeah. Thank you so much for doing this.

[52:33] Leah Walsh: I really enjoyed this conversation.

[52:35] Sally Cade Holmes: Oh my gosh, of course. Thank you, Leah. It was so nice to connect.

[52:48] Leah Walsh: Thank you for listening to The Compass Podcast. If you find these conversations valuable to your life as an artist and would like to support the ongoing production of The Compass, please consider becoming a patron at patreon.com slash The Compass Podcast. Pledges start at as little as one dollar a month. Anything you can give will be greatly appreciated. Also, if you have a moment, please rate or review in iTunes. Every little bit helps other listeners to find the podcast.

[53:22] Leah Walsh: Audio assistance from Nick Choxy, and a special thanks to Frankie J. Alvarez. See you next time.