This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Leah Walsh: Hi, and welcome to The Compass, the podcast documenting the struggles of life as an artist.

[0:05] Leah Walsh: I'm Leah Walsh.

[0:07] Leah Walsh: Hi everyone. My guest today is Claire Karpen.

[0:10] Leah Walsh: Claire is a fantastic actor, director, and coach who I went to Juilliard with back in the day. I admire her energy and drive very much, and I'm excited for you to hear this conversation.

[0:21] Leah Walsh: She's also a part of the Actors Equity Council, and we were able to talk about some of the behind the scenes elements of negotiations and our union. She is wonderful, and it made my week to be able to talk to her.

[0:33] Leah Walsh: Other than that, I'm feeling very overwhelmed, still unable to plan for the future. I can't believe we're still in this cycle of unknowing and such a lack of leadership in our country.

[0:49] Leah Walsh: I'm feeling very overwhelmed. I'm sure a lot of you are as well. I hope you're taking deep breaths, resting where you can, and getting ready to vote.

[1:01] Leah Walsh: I hope you enjoy the 162nd episode of The Compass.

[1:27] Claire Karpen: Oh, that's such a good question. Um, I mean, sometimes I think going to the dark side is useful. So often if I'm going to the dark side, and I guess the question also is, you know, what is the dark side for everybody? Um, I think for me, the dark side is a lot of self-doubt, or I'm not very good at this, or I don't know what I'm doing, or the common, you know, I'm a fraud, or yeah, all of those demons.

[2:09] Claire Karpen: Um, and I think I used to really escape, I used to really run from those as a bad thing, as a um, even just the self-doubt, the start of self-doubt would feel, uh, there's that double shame where you feel like self-doubt and then you feel ashamed of feeling self-doubt or that sort of cycle. Um, and I would say that I think more recently in the past couple of years, I've found that those darker places are actually really useful, especially for us as artists. Uh, and so now I think I kind of go into them and start to go, okay. Well, what's this about?

[2:51] Claire Karpen: Uh, but in terms of my own life when I'm getting into a place where I feel discouraged or I feel like I don't know what I'm doing. Um, gosh, there's a lot of, I guess I do a lot of different things. I often reach out to people who, well that's not true. I was gonna say I reach out to people who I love, and the truth is I sh I could reach out to people more than I do. Because I actually think that's what would really help me through those dark moments is those artistic and colleagues and my friends and family who really are good at reminding me of the things that I do well or what I offer as an artist.

[3:37] Claire Karpen: Uh, and I think I could go to them and find a lot more strength and comfort than I probably use. I think some there's some part of that shame, like you said, like feeling bad about feeling that way. And so sometimes when I'm feeling and when I'm in that lane, I don't want to admit it to other people. There's like a weakness that I'm hiding. Uh, yeah, which I don't think is helpful.

[4:02] Claire Karpen: Yeah, yeah. And it's so strange too, because the second that you, or you know, for me, the second that I actually say something like that to people, it's such a relief because often you realize that you're not alone in it, and you realize that other people feel the same way, and it's just a part of being an artist and a human, but it's so amazing for whatever reason, it's so scary. It's so scary to actually say to somebody, you know, I feel weak or vulnerable or I don't think I'm very good.

[4:32] Claire Karpen: And I guess maybe it's because you really do worry that the answer is gonna come back. Well, yeah, you're actually, you know, you're not very good at this. You know, you maybe you shouldn't do this anymore. Um, yeah, I wonder that that kind of imposter syndrome or that feeling of being a fraud, you kind of wonder how that's useful in the development of the human species, just to take it out to the large view for a second. Like, I don't know. I guess in some ways it's good for you to question yourself.

[5:08] Claire Karpen: Um, let's say if you were about to attempt something difficult or were trying to be a surgeon or something, it's good for you to question whether you are valid in that attempt if you have the skills necessary for something like that. But in our situation, humility is a good thing.

[5:24] Claire Karpen: Yeah. Yeah. But in these situations, you wonder, it's just like that's one of those human things where you're like, this is just not healthy. Why is it a part of our psyche?

[5:36] Claire Karpen: Yeah, I think, you know, I think I think for me, I'm learning that the shame on the shame is actually then the unhealthy part. The initial, the initial humility or self-doubt actually feels pretty healthy because it does if you if you really listen to it, it allows you to be a student again, it allows you to be curious again, it allows you to be humble and go, actually, I don't know what I'm doing in this moment, or to say, oh, I feel like I don't know what I'm doing. So what's that about and what's getting in my way of the stuff I do know?

[6:14] Claire Karpen: And if for me, the unhealthy part I've noticed is really does feel like the shame about the shame. But that's the part that feels destructive. Um, but the part that but the actual self-doubt is it can be constructive and useful, and I think it's I also think that there's just a thing about being an artist that's a cultural thing that we face a lot, which is we live in a, I mean, this is I feel like we live in a culture that really looks at success for an artist as having to do with fame and having to do with sort of fame and fortune and name recognition.

[6:58] Claire Karpen: So it's that classic case of if you say, Oh, I'm an actor, and people say, Well, have I seen you in anything? And immediately you feel like if the answer is no, then you're a failure. And so there seems to be this, um, this like need for proof or need for, uh, I guess fame and fortune or some sort of measures of success that actually don't really have to do with your art necessarily, but have to do with the public consumption of your art and the scale of that consumption.

[7:28] Claire Karpen: Um, and it feels like at least for me, it feels like that often is part of what plays into my self-doubt. When I actually look at the work that I've done, I feel really good about it. Um, and most of some of the work that I've done that I feel the best about, uh, not that many people have seen. So, you know, it may have even just happened in like a rehearsal room for project that never even came to be, or, um, you know, or just it's just it's not seen on a mass level, so it's hard to point to it as like proof that like you do know what you're doing, um, or you do feel good about the work that you're making.

[8:09] Claire Karpen: Um, and so I think that sometimes when that self-doubt comes up, it also has to do with the societal pressure of like feeling the need to prove yourself on some level that's actually not, I think what I really think a successful artist is.

[8:24] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[8:25] Leah Walsh: Yeah. It's also oh, sorry, no, sir, that's exactly what I was gonna bring up.

[8:31] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[8:31] Claire Karpen: But there is that line between, I mean, the fame and fortune is one thing. That's the weird part is the extremes of our industry.

[8:40] Claire Karpen: And while I do realize that like middle class actors exist or middle class artists exist, there's much more of a feeling of like, well, you've you either make it huge or you're making art that you love and not getting a paycheck for it.

[8:56] Claire Karpen: Yeah, and in fact, it seems like that middle class actor is actually disappearing. That, you know, I think the generation above us actually had a, um, had more work that paid better more consistently. I'm sure that's not true for everybody, I'm sure, but it feels to me often like there's just a certain there was a certain middle class living you could achieve as an actor that feels really hard to achieve at the moment.

[9:27] Claire Karpen: And some of that has to do with I think things like student debt, and some of it has to do with just the cost of living, cost of living in New York, if you're based there, but also cost of living around the country, uh, what it means to actually, you know, like we're doing all of this on all this technology, and the just affording this stuff is also a certain kind of cost that you now have to do.

[9:52] Claire Karpen: Um, I was talking to somebody about, uh, self-tapes and how like self-taping is so great because of the fact that you can sort of have more control over things and you can do things remotely, but also you have to pay for all the equipment now. And you used to just, you know, maybe you had to pay for your clothes and if you're a woman, oh my god, the stuff that we have to pay for in terms of just general upkeep.

[10:18] Claire Karpen: Um, but you would have to pay for that, but you wouldn't have to pay for the camera and the microphone, and that you just would take you could take some paper into a building and be able to, you know, possibly book a job.

[10:32] Leah Walsh: Yeah, the underlying cost to even having the job interview now.

[10:37] Claire Karpen: It's very, yeah.

[10:38] Claire Karpen: There's a certain privilege, privilege to it.

[10:42] Leah Walsh: Um, I so I know that you've done a lot of work with Actors' Equity with Fair Wage on Stage. Can you tell me a little bit about what that journey has been like for you and what it's like to kind of be on the negotiating side of these conversations, the mystery that is compensation for theatre?

[11:01] Claire Karpen: Yeah.

[11:02] Claire Karpen: Um, well, what you're allowed to say.

[11:05] Claire Karpen: Yeah, sure.

[11:06] Claire Karpen: Sure. Um, well, that's actually something that speaking of what I'm allowed to say, something that I'm wrestling with a lot in my work has been this question of transparency, because I'm a big believer in more information is better and transparency is really important.

[11:24] Claire Karpen: And one of the hard things is when you're negotiating, um, and I should clarify, like, I've been a part of selecting negotiating proposals and stuff like that. I personally have never actually been on the negotiating team, and I hope to do that, but in my journey at equity, I've found sort of found myself in useful in some other places, but I've seen and talked to people who've been on those, you know, literally on the other side.

[11:49] Leah Walsh: Do you want to just tell briefly tell the listeners like what your journey or various positions have been in in that process?

[11:56] Claire Karpen: Sure.

[11:57] Claire Karpen: So my story with that basically begins in, um, I guess it was, I guess it was 2014.

[12:05] Claire Karpen: So it was a couple years after graduating from Juilliard. I started to realize how bad the paychecks were for particularly off-Broadway contracts and at the time anti-contracts. So the some pretty prestigious theaters in New York, but they're not commercial, they're nonprofit. And seeing the paychecks that you get for that work and the amount of hours and the type of work that you're putting in was pretty shocking to me. And I thought I knew how extreme it was. But um and agent fees and uh yeah, it's it's really prohibitive. I mean, it's just really bad. It was really bad. And the other thing is, you know, I was looking at these paychecks that I had risked I had gotten when I was a non-union actor doing like a touring Shakespeare company back in uh the you know, back in college.

Um, and I was being paid more than I was getting paid for some of these jobs. So that kind of, and that was, you know, you know, not counting for inflation. I mean, the paycheck, just the numbers were actually more than the numbers. And so things like that just made me think, you know, this this the math on this doesn't seem right, and I would like to be a part of making it better. So I started to participate in these conversations that some actors who worked those contracts regularly were uh having, and then those outside conversations got invited inside at equity through the person who was at the time chairing the negotiating team for the off-Broadway contract, who's this wonderful actor and now equity counselor Brian Myers Cooper.

And he invited us into the conversations inside equity, inside the committees and inside with staff, and then we kicked off this movement in the community to to really get actors and stage managers um mobilized to push for better wages on that particular negotiation. And I think what I learned is until you really push, you're you're not gonna get it. Like, it would have been so easy for those contracts to still have gotten a little bit of a salary bump, but that that negotiation completely reconfigured how that contract exists and how people are paid on it. It re-tiered the theaters so that a theater like the public versus you know can't hide behind a theater like the women's project. You know, the women's project has a much smaller operating budget and is a much smaller operation, and the public has a huge operating budget, it's wildly successful.

And they were essentially on the same contract, they were paying the same wages. Um that negotiation in which the entire community really stood together in solidarity and said, we need this as a community, and you need to rethink this and really put pressure on those theaters, uh, they we were able to get these, you know, record increases on that contract. Um, and so based on that, I wanted to get more involved. So I I was mostly involved with that campaign, and that's the fair wage on stage campaign. That's where that began, it said, and we were very, very conscious of um choosing the word fair. Uh it, you know, we talked about choosing like living wage on stage, uh, and in some ways that's really what we're going for.

But the reason we said fair was because we know that a lot of theaters are struggling to make ends meet themselves and and employ their staff and pay for um pay for a lot of different things. And so what we really wanted to to push for was that it was fair compensation, it was a fair piece of the pie based on the work that we were doing. And so if you're gonna really, really push to build a capital campaign that gets, you know, bidets in your bathrooms at your theater, then um, but you're still gonna pay your actors just the minimum of you know $400 a week, then that math seems off, and we wanted to really push that they reprioritized how money gets gets raised and gets allocated and where your priorities are.

[16:24] Claire Karpen: So um, so it's really exciting. I mean, some of the most exciting moments in that campaign were there was one, um, you know, I don't remember if you or Frankie ever joined any of some any of some of these events, but there were um there was one where we did a major call to get actors to show up in the room at with the theaters. And so we got all these actors to show up in the equity office. And before the negotiation, this was in in negotiations, and before they went for their day of negotiations, all of us stood up and said our names and said if there was any, you know, any um useful theaters that we had worked at, or there were a lot of, you know, um Lord Tell winners and OB winners and uh people of lots of different generations and different were different levels of their career, just this huge group of people just stood up one by one and said their names across the table from the producers.

Uh and that was that was pretty exciting because it was a real, it was a real a message of like, do you really want to do this without us? Like these are and also a these are the people who are asking you for more, and you know how valuable they are, and you know that what we're asking is um is to survive in this industry. So uh so anyway so I did that and then I ran for counsel um and I've been on council for three years and then there was a new uh real I got re-elected just a couple months ago and then through council we're trying you know really hard to fight for those priorities of the health and safety and and compensation for stage managers and actors. And I guess what I've learned is that it's just it's it's hard.

I mean we were doing really awesome stuff and then the pandemic hit. Yeah and it's so difficult because uh for all the reasons you would think but one of the things that's really hard is that the the union literally has no income right now because it would get dues and dues make up a l a little bit but it but a lot of the the money that keeps you know that keeps the lights on um or the internet connection I guess these days or whatever the infrastructure is and the staff and pays the staff it comes from working dues. It comes from actors working and when there are no working dues there's just no money coming in. And so a lot of staff has been furloughed or let go and and they've had to reconfigure things and so we have all these things I want to do and I know a lot of us want to do in terms of helping members and the resources to do that are just uh just not robust and and are pretty dire right now.

So it's so it's really a really fascinating and tricky time. And the other thing that I'm learning is so much about politics because it's it's a lot of people who really want to do the right thing and they come from a lot of different points of view, and just like with anything, a lot of people in a room trying to get something done involves a lot of complicated people things. Like a lot of feelings and a lot of alliances and a lot of um disagreements about how people are behaving and how things are getting done, and it's very frustrating, and I think it's because there's so many people. I mean, there's 83 counselors and the national counselor, and that's a lot, that's a very large body to try to get it.

That's a lot, but I guess it makes sense. This is a huge country. But still. But still, it's bigger than a lot of other unions. And so I think I think I would be in favor of it of it being cut down. And if I if that means that, you know, I don't get elected and somebody else who's, you know, somebody awesome is in there, I'm fine with that because I just want the thing to work and I want people's lives to get better. So however that can happen, I think there is there's definitely I'm definitely of the mind that I it could it could be cut in honestly in half, probably, and it would be a much more effective body, but I'm curious. I want to talk about your thoughts about theater coming out of this pandemic, but first I just want to ask how you're doing in the pandemic and in the quarantine and how it's been um and how you're dealing with it.

[21:00] Claire Karpen: Um I am I'm doing okay. I one of the things one of the decisions I made was to leave town pretty quickly. At the time I was directing Juilliard Showcase, and we, you know, we were supposed to go, it was I think two weeks before we were supposed to go into rehearsal. And we got this email that said out of an abundance of caution, we're gonna take two weeks online, and then we'll see where we are and hopefully return and work in person. And I remember at the time thinking, wow, that does feel like an abundance of caution. And then as we got closer, and then as we were in rehearsal for online, it became clear that it was not an abundance of caution. It was like essential. And you could feel that we were probably, you know, you saw that like Columbia was shutting down and some other places were were or was going completely online.

And then once I got, I think it was like a Thursday, I got the email that said everything is in person is canceled and we're fully moving online for the rest of the semester. And I think it was the next day I hopped a plane to Florida. Um and I I had talked to my family about like, is this a smart idea? And there were a couple of things that went into deciding to do that. One of it was one of them was um my dad was not doing great because he had some back issues and he actually had a slight fever. And oddly enough, I like left a hot spot to go to a house where my father ended up having COVID. Oh my gosh. So he's totally fine. But I did. I went to I went to Florida and my father was sick, and um my mom lost her sense of smell before we knew that was a symptom.

And so part of my calculation was also that I my brother couldn't go be with my parents, and so I thought maybe it would be good if I went. Um they're pretty capable, so it wasn't like it wasn't like they're in a I I'm not a caretaker for them, um, and they're not in a position where they needed that. But I do it was a good decision to go because of my I think I would have been really lonely. I would have been stuck alone in my apartment. My roommate, I have a roommate, and she was going to be with her parents in Massachusetts, and I made the calculation that I would rather be able to take care of my parents or just be there for them and help and be with people. So I got out like but I bought the ticket within two hours and then I left.

Oh my gosh. Yeah, and and yeah, and then went into a household that that that I was very happy to be there because it was scary. You know, my dad luckily was pretty pretty um what they would call like a sort of milder standard case. He had high fever that was relentless, and he um and he had a really scary cough, but that's as bad as it got. He didn't have to be hospitalized, and then about 10 days or 11 days into it, the fever started to break and it started to go down slowly, slowly, slowly.

[24:08] Claire Karpen: And then at the other side of it, he was fine. And my mom never got sick beyond losing her sense of smell, which is only just coming back, which is crazy. Oh my goodness. Um, and so that part was that part was scary, but it was it was just good to be with people. And so I was able to be with them, and then I came out here to my brother's place um to be with them. And so the being with people has been really special. So that part's been pretty great. There's this low-key like anxiety that just that hum under everything. Um and the other thing, you know, that's really stressful and hard for me, and this is getting super personal, um, is you know, there's the career stuff, and then there's also, I mean, you remember this.

I was married when I was in Juilliard, and part of my um, and then I got divorced, and and one of the things I'm struggling with is like I'm still interested in having children, and I'm getting old for that. And so it to have this pause in which yeah, so to have this pause in which um that just, you know, like dating or relationships becomes really hard uh at a moment like this. And so for the most part, I feel kind of okay. It's sort of a relief to just kind of be coasting and then but then the real deep panic comes in with the oh my god, my life is like getting ahead of me in the the clocks. So whether whether it's like my biological clock or um or my career clock, you know, about like how am I gonna make money and get even close to saving for a life that I ideally want, like all of that stuff is really the stuff that that causes the panic to come up.

There's just no way to plan right now, and I did know that I was a planner, but I don't think I knew how much I depended on that to quell my anxiety, the feeling that I could could plan and could control something in my head, and now I can't even do that.

[26:16] Leah Walsh: Yes, yes, yes, or like, yeah, or the or the timeline where you're like, well, at least I know for the you know, for this two months I can do this, or yeah, or if there's something you like have to look forward to, or yeah, any of that, just gone.

[26:33] Claire Karpen: That I mean, while we're being personal, I mean, Frankie and I would like to have another kid, and I've been thinking about it, and now it's just like I don't know when would be a smart time to make that decision, or if it would be smart at this point, because who knows what's happening with our country and our world.

[26:52] Leah Walsh: Yeah, and it's like it's like it's like you know, and then like things like health insurance or like or getting sick. I mean, yeah, I being being pregnant and having a little person come into I mean, already having a little person and then having another little person come into the world, um, yeah, it's scary. Um yeah, how I mean, how are you how are you doing?

[27:21] Claire Karpen: Yeah, how are you guys doing? That's the other thing, because I'm looking, I'm looking at my friends also who have kids, and what it's like to be it's it's completely, you know, double sided.

[27:34] Leah Walsh: Yeah, every day is both sides of the coin. Like it's it's wonderful to have a little kid around, as I'm sure you're seeing with your nephew, like just to who's oblivious and who's full of joy and still growing and learning and discovering, and is thrilled that it's mama, Bappy and Sessie all the time, like the three of us are a little team constantly. Um, and that's beautiful, and then the other side of the coin is like it is relentless, and we haven't had a break in however many months it's been.

[28:09] Claire Karpen: Um we can't even really give each other a break because it's like if we are trading off, it's for a necessary purpose.

[28:17] Leah Walsh: Right, right.

[28:27] Claire Karpen: Or if I yeah, if I need to give him a break to do an online play workshop or whatever he's working on, and then um anything beyond that seems kind of selfish, even though we do need to prioritize going for a run or something like that.

[28:42] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[28:43] Claire Karpen: God forbid, time to ourselves.

[28:45] Leah Walsh: Right.

[28:46] Claire Karpen: We're just literally some private time to just been wonderful in some ways, and then I think there's a part of us that is like secretly curious and jealous about what our friends without kids are experiencing in these months of time.

[29:01] Leah Walsh: Yeah, yeah.

[29:02] Claire Karpen: Oh it's yeah, it's pretty interesting.

[29:05] Leah Walsh: Yeah, um it's uh it's funny because I'm like only getting I'm getting a piece of it because I'm here, but I think because there's there's a group of people we could we can all like pass the duty on to, it's um it's such a relief.

[29:24] Claire Karpen: I yeah, I don't it's also interesting because it's different out here, like in Reno right now, there's the cases are so low that um that it's people are still socializing outside, and there's all these these things that you're sort of able to do that I don't think you people feel comfortable doing in New York as much yet.

[29:43] Leah Walsh: Um, and the other thing is I'm actually going back to New York in a week.

[29:48] Claire Karpen: Oh, soon.

[29:49] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[29:50] Claire Karpen: So, and I haven't been home in five months. So, uh, so part of that is um is because I want to, I'm I mean, I honestly just miss my home. I know it's not the same, I know it's not gonna be the same. I'm really excited and really trepidatious about going home.

[30:06] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[30:07] Claire Karpen: Um I mean, the numbers here are good, and people are going back to some some of the way from before. But honestly, like I feel like it since it was so intense being here throughout the height of it, I'm just not ready. I'm just not ready for I'm we're changing very, very little about what we're doing because I I don't think it's over and I I think it'll come back at some point. And I just feel like we didn't come this far to make a mistake, you know.

[30:38] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[30:38] Claire Karpen: But um, it's an interesting, interesting balance. Um, well, what I wanted to ask about kind of back marrying this back to the equity stuff.

[30:49] Leah Walsh: Sure.

[30:56] Claire Karpen: And then part of me has like huge hope that this is an opportunity to change everything because it's stopped completely. Um, and that's kind of the same way I feel about the social justice and racial justice movements that are happening right now. Part of me is very pessimistic, and part of me thinks if anything's ever gonna change, this is the time because we've had to stop completely.

[31:20] Leah Walsh: Yes.

[31:21] Claire Karpen: Um, in a way. Um so yeah, I'm just curious about your thoughts about or your dreams of what it might be a world might be like when it wakes up again.

[31:34] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[31:35] Claire Karpen: Um, yeah, you know, I feel very similarly where I'm very optimistic and pessimistic at the same time. I think I think I fully agree with you that I think that if if anything's gonna change now is a great time. And I was actually thinking about how because there's such limited work or really no work, it is actually uh allowing people to feel really able to make demands because there's no job on the line that they feel they're losing.

[32:10] Leah Walsh: Um, you know, it's like I think that if one of the hard things about especially about being on the stage manager and actor side is that you're so dependent on somebody hiring you. And so when there's nothing really to be hired for, you can actually you can actually really talk about you don't feel like you've got a job to lose, so you can really talk about the things that need to change so that when you come back, you hope that you have jobs in a way that's really healthy and constructive.

[32:44] Claire Karpen: So it does feel like now's to your point, it feels very, very much like now's the time we can possibly change. And the other thing I've been thinking is the pessimistic part of me worries that we're gonna lose a lot of voices because they can't afford to stay in or come back. Uh back to the the beginning part of our conversation about privilege, that we're gonna lose a lot of people who would really be valuable and contribute a lot to theater because they just can't afford to stay in it.

[33:19] Leah Walsh: Um, from the theater community.

[33:26] Claire Karpen: So the privilege part of it scares me a lot. The flip side of that makes me think, you know, it would maybe there's a world in which some of these older institutions that have been around for really long time, like they're gonna need to be shaken up, and some might even go away. And I I don't know, that sounds really sad and tragic, but it also makes me think maybe it's time for some new groups to come up and and grow out of the ashes of this in a really exciting way.

[33:59] Leah Walsh: Um, so that makes me optimistic.

[34:02] Claire Karpen: Um, I also the optimist in me thinks once we're able to come back, and I do think we'll be able to come back. Um, I don't think this is the last pandemic, but I do think based on the history of pandemics, it feels like we're gonna be able to come back. So I'm I'm hopeful about that. And it does make me think when we are ready to come back, people are going to be really hungry for live in-person events.

[34:28] Leah Walsh: So that makes me think that there's the potential for like a golden age of art and and performance art on the other side of this, and also that it will take a step forward in terms of how all the opportunities that technology offer us in terms of access, that there actually means that more people get more access to more things, and that can always be good.

[34:51] Claire Karpen: So that makes me optimistic. Um, and the social justice stuff does make me does make me optimistic. Um I think that the time also for people to reflect and really get serious and have really deep conversations about ways in which everyone can can do better and atone for you know centuries of injustice is really valuable and I don't think we would have it without the pandemic because there's just always reasons to be too busy.

[35:27] Leah Walsh: So that's that's a really beautiful, beautiful thing that I think is coming out of this.

[35:33] Claire Karpen: But the uh the truth is, and this is to to the other to our other points about what we were talking about earlier, the truth is we just don't know. And so it's the unknown that is that is scary, and I guess I guess the thing that at least I'm trying to do through it is I've got sort of two modes. One mode is the part of me that's trying to be like a businesswoman and start to literally find like find ways to make money.

[36:04] Claire Karpen: And um, my new thing is I I'm trying to put a lot of energy into um becoming uh like a speaking coach or a presentation coach for the corporate world because I think that that's a way I can use lots of my skill set and things that I love in a way that actually could make me some money.

[36:23] Claire Karpen: Um, but then the other piece of me is the part where I'm like, well, I also still want to be making art, so I'm trying to find ways to make it in the circumstance that we're in.

[36:34] Claire Karpen: Um, and then hope that that I mean we're creative problem solvers, so if anything, it gives me hope that we'll figure out ways to just keep making making art because that's just what artists do.

[36:46] Claire Karpen: So I'm trying to keep that part alive. It's hard to keep, it's hard to keep alive though when you don't have in isolation, especially.

[36:54] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[36:55] Claire Karpen: I feel like it's hard. It's hard when you don't have that community, um, yeah, physically to feel like the energy and the ideas are bouncing back and forth.

[37:05] Claire Karpen: Yeah, just that like the conversation at a at a restaurant or a bar or in a park or because we all are really in this together, but it's hard to have that feeling when you're always just talking to people through screens.

[37:17] Claire Karpen: It's so bizarre.

[37:18] Claire Karpen: It's so bizarre.

[37:20] Claire Karpen: It's so not, it's so not um, it's so this this virus is so it hits us right in our sweet spot of like what it is to be a human.

[37:30] Claire Karpen: I mean, oh my god, it got us right in the right in that pocket.

[37:36] Claire Karpen: And one of my one of my other questions about us coming out of this, yeah, is something that I've been trying to cut out of myself is um a scarcity mindset in relation to acting and acting jobs.

[37:55] Claire Karpen: Yes, because I know that's not helpful.

[37:58] Claire Karpen: Um I've been made aware that that's uh part of white supremacy, that a scarcity mindset is part of that that we've all learned.

[38:09] Claire Karpen: Um but there's also something in the system that has taught me that that's actually true in our business.

[38:18] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[38:19] Claire Karpen: And I and like even if you look at it, you think you're like, okay, well, let me get out of my out of my head and just look at it logically.

[38:26] Claire Karpen: Maybe that's not really true, but it still looks that way to me.

[38:29] Claire Karpen: Um, and I want to find a way to just get that out of my head and to not have this pandemic make us all feel even more um protective of what little crumbs we can get.

[38:44] Claire Karpen: Like it has to be, it has to be a a place of abundance.

[38:48] Claire Karpen: And how do we do that when everyone's gonna be struggling coming out of this?

[38:52] Leah Walsh: Oof.

[38:52] Claire Karpen: So everybody think on that question.

[38:54] Claire Karpen: Get back to me.

[38:57] Leah Walsh: Yeah, we all have to figure out.

[38:59] Claire Karpen: Yeah.

[39:00] Claire Karpen: I think, you know, the truth is that there is a kind of scarcity in that there are only so many jobs, and there's so many people who want the jobs.

[39:11] Claire Karpen: And so that scarcity is real.

[39:13] Claire Karpen: But it's but I think often to your point, there's like there's a mindset in which we often give also too many people too much power who maybe don't have that power in the way that we assign it to them.

[39:29] Claire Karpen: And I think that I think that there is an I mean, art is free in terms of you know, in terms of your ability to imagine something and then find whatever means you have to create it.

[39:45] Claire Karpen: Um obviously the quality of the tools, you know, is not free.

[39:49] Claire Karpen: That that's different, but in terms of like your your imagination and all of that, we still I think the the I think the abundance comes from finding ways to actually make make work and make things with people.

[40:07] Claire Karpen: There is always abundance in that, and that's always available to us, and there is more abundance if we take it in terms of like in terms of I guess I I mean I the only thing I can really think of is like making art, like just making it, just making it, making it, making it, and making it and like getting together with people and making it and the way that you feed your soul so that you don't let the the very real scarcity of 20 people going for the same job get in the way of it all being that your value is just about that one job or competitive or survivalistic you know like that it's like we're all trying to like steal it from each other because we think that it's the only way we're gonna survive I think that's the piece of it that reminds that helps me stay out of the scarcity mindset.

[41:01] Leah Walsh: Are there any lessons that you've learned in your work as a an actor who also directs who also teaches and coaches.

[41:11] Leah Walsh: Are there any lessons from that experience that you're really proud of that you'd like to share?

[41:16] Claire Karpen: Lessons that you've learned yeah um yeah for me I am such a better actor for having directed and I'm such a better director for having acted um I really also because I'm an actor who directs you can imagine how all the bad ways that might uh exhibit itself in a rehearsal room you know that like I think I definitely would have a tendency to in a rehearsal room as an actor see ways in which I'm like well I would do it if I were directing it or whatever I might do it this other way or if people are struggling you know feeling like oh I can help I could step in right now and help and I think what I've learned from the director side is how unhelpful that can be when you're when you're you're trying to juggle all these things or the ways in which what you really need from an actor is them to really do their job exquisitely you know and and really commit to doing their job and and not to say that you can't collaborate I actually also think it's taught me how to be a better collaborator but I know when I'm acting that my job is to collaborate as an actor and and the best way that I can be useful in that room is to really do this sort of acting job.

[42:33] Claire Karpen: And then if some if a director asks certain things of me you know and asks and if the rehearsal is set up to ask certain ask me to put on my director brain then I can bring it but I I know I know how to be more of service to the thing as a whole.

[42:48] Claire Karpen: And likewise as a director I think I know how or I've learned how better to take care of actors and to how to really speak that language and and ask and use different to actor tools to get an actor um feeling empowered and like they can do their job the best.

[43:19] Claire Karpen: And like with anything when you once you once you really have like gone through the experience of being in somebody else's shoes or somebody else's job you start to go oh that's what that's about.

[43:33] Claire Karpen: And I and yeah I was just gonna add the other the other thing that I think especially from the director point is I know how vulnerable it is to be an actor.

[43:41] Claire Karpen: And I often point that out to people of just what it feels like when everybody's sitting behind a table and your entire body is exposed up at a distance.

[43:53] Claire Karpen: It's just different and it's very vulnerable.

[43:56] Claire Karpen: And then your body has to go through all of these vulnerable things.

[44:00] Claire Karpen: And so if a director is asking you to go and a playwright in the whole project is asking you in your vulnerable body, up in front of everybody while they all get to sit behind a desk with coffee and paper and pens and all these like safe feeling things.

[44:14] Claire Karpen: And then you have to go and go through all of this vulnerable stuff.

[44:18] Claire Karpen: That's part of the joy of acting, but it's also something that it's really helpful to know what it feels like.

[44:25] Claire Karpen: So you also know when you need to give an actor a break, or when you want you can feel that they're resisting maybe going somewhere emotional, and you realize why it's because they don't feel safe in the room, or there are ways, you know, there's just ways you can take care of actors that's just a humane and b also will get better, we'll get better work.

[44:48] Leah Walsh: Well, that was my other question was I was curious if there's any ways that you feel like your process with auditioning as an actor has changed since coming out of school, like things either from your work as a director or just with experience.

[45:04] Claire Karpen: Um I would say I would say it has changed in that I've gotten I've got better tools and tricks to get me out of my um bad habits or you know, my fear or anxiety.

[45:23] Claire Karpen: So I'm a little bit better at managing that, and I've also got more perspective on the scope of what I'm doing, or um, you know, if you don't book it, the the you you, you know, just dealing with not booking and rejection over and over again is you know, is its own um is its own skill and also its own experience that allows you to go, ah, okay, you know, you kind of get you get better at that to a point.

[45:48] Claire Karpen: I would say for me, it's still ebbs and flows, you know.

[45:51] Claire Karpen: Like I know enough to know when I'm walking into an audition, I know where the director, I know what it's like to be in that director chair.

[45:58] Claire Karpen: I know how um sometimes as the director you're nervous.

[46:03] Claire Karpen: I know how I just I know that experience, but even though I know that experience, I can still feel myself get nervous as an actor in ways that bewilder me, because I'm like, but I know, I know, you know, I know that I should feel free and it's all okay, and um, and they really want me to do a good job, and they they're rooting for me, and you know, whatever the things are, um, and I still get nervous.

[46:29] Claire Karpen: And so I think I think that's just an that just ebbs and flows for me.

[46:33] Claire Karpen: And there are times when I'm like in the zone and I feel like I'm doing really well, and then there are times I'm not.

[46:38] Claire Karpen: Um, I do think once I'm always better at auditioning when I'm working.

[46:43] Leah Walsh: That makes sense.

[46:45] Claire Karpen: Yeah.

[46:46] Claire Karpen: It's just because you're just you're you're already creatively fulfilled and you're and your inner, you know, I I also talk about when I'm coaching, I often talk about like the character brain versus the actor brain, in that, you know, if if you can the act and the actor brain is useful in terms of as we know, um, the active brain that tells you like hold for a laugh or the prop broke, what do I do?

[47:11] Claire Karpen: Like, you know, or we just jumped, you know, to a page.

[47:16] Claire Karpen: How do we like that that awareness and actor brain is completely useful?

[47:20] Claire Karpen: So I'm not a big method person who's like, you have to turn it completely off, or you can't or you're not really acting.

[47:26] Claire Karpen: But I do know that the active brain gets totally in the way when it's like you sound weird, or um or you look strange, or that was that was not how you meant to say that, or that's not sort of what's really happening, or you're not listening, or whatever the whatever that noise is.

[47:42] Claire Karpen: And so I I talk often with when I'm coaching or teaching about how you want to turn up the character brain and try that whatever the if you do have a thought, like I sound weird, that that's the character, that that's like how do you like redirect it into character brain so that your energy is going, is really trying to stay as in the circumstances and in the fun stuff as possible.

[48:05] Claire Karpen: Um, and I think that what's great about when I'm working is that my kind of artist and character brain and like imagination brain is pretty lit up already, so that when I'm going into an audition, it just feels like an extension of my already lit fire of artist brain.

[48:24] Claire Karpen: So um, so of course it's and you've got confidence, you're not so you're not so scared about like oh, if you the stakes aren't as high because you're already working.

[48:35] Claire Karpen: Ugh.

[48:38] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[48:38] Claire Karpen: Um so there are so many more things we could talk about, but I I think I'm gonna go to kind of the two questions I usually ask at the end, just because we've already been talking for a long time. Um but before I do that, is there anything specific that you really wanted to talk about that we didn't touch on?

[49:00] Claire Karpen: Um that's a good question. I know we didn't talk specifically about a lot of your projects, but oh that's okay. That's that's that's actually not no, my brain was not going to that. My brain was going more to um I don't I don't know why this was what comes to mind, but it is. I think one of the things that has been on my mind a lot is in this age of digital technology and this age of um TikTok and Instagram and so I I said the other day to somebody there's too many mirrors. It just feels like there's too many, you know, it's like everywhere you go, there's you like end up seeing yourself in or feeling like you should be seeing yourself because you should be taking a selfie, or even now as we're talking on this, I also can see myself in the corner of our FaceTime while we're FaceTiming and I'm like, it's too many mirrors.

Um and I bet there's a way I can turn that off and I should figure it out. But but with all of that, the thing that um the thing that's really on my mind these days is I really feel like I need to spend more time with my inner life, like cultivating cultivating ways to really feed my inner life, and um, and it feels like during a pandemic that should be really easy because we're all forced to be monks, but it's so hard, and I don't know why I'm finding it so difficult, but I think it's that anxiety of not knowing what's coming and and isolation, all of that is is its own kind of noise that's distracting me, but I'm I'm trying to figure out, you know, especially for my artistic self, I'm trying to figure out how I can get better at feeding the inner life.

[50:52] Claire Karpen: I think it's also because so much of my inner life was filled by interactions with people. I think I'm I'm that kind of animal where when I'm with other people, it feels like there's um there's a conversation that happens internally too that I miss a lot. So yeah.

[51:11] Claire Karpen: Yeah, I feel like there's also this desire to kind of check and see if anything has changed. Like outside the walls. Like I find my I find myself going back to Czech social media to check the news to refresh the New York Times on my computer just to see if anything has changed, like if there's been any advancement or yeah. I think that's part of it for me.

[51:33] Claire Karpen: I don't I just started, I just probably restarted for about the third time.

[51:38] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[51:39] Claire Karpen: The artist's way.

[51:40] Leah Walsh: Yes, yes.

[51:42] Claire Karpen: I totally I've done I've done it once.

[51:44] Leah Walsh: Yes.

[51:44] Claire Karpen: I did it when I was applying to Juilliard. I never made it all the way through the book. And I don't think I'm gonna hold myself specifically. It's set up in weeks, like the exercises and things are set up in weeks. I don't think I'm gonna hold myself to that because I have a child. But I have at least started and I've been doing the morning pages for a full week now. I'm gonna keep going. So that's good.

[52:06] Leah Walsh: Some little practice to hold on to.

[52:09] Claire Karpen: Yeah, I mean, that that book is um, I always get a little embarrassed when I mention it because I feel like it's like it's like cliched. Do you know what I mean? Like I get like, do you ever feel like I get a little I feel like I've fallen into the cliche by starting it and not finishing it. I feel like that's the cliche.

[52:29] Leah Walsh: Yeah, yeah.

[52:30] Claire Karpen: But it is, it is so nice to have that kind of like guide of just very simple things, simple habits and projects to do that really feed the very simple like child and artist in you that is so useful.

[52:46] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[52:47] Claire Karpen: I I still take myself on artist dates. I haven't done that in a long time, but I still do that.

[52:52] Leah Walsh: I would do that every now and then.

[52:53] Claire Karpen: Yeah, I tried to do today.

[52:57] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[52:57] Claire Karpen: I did sign up. Um we're we have a mama membership and we got an email that they're doing an event tomorrow night that's like a meditation and art making, you know, over Zoom. So I I signed up for it. We'll see if I actually get to do it or not. Yeah, things could get in the way, but um so the the last two questions I wanted to ask was uh if you are feeling down and uninspired and kind of in that dark place, are there any tangible things that you go back to again and again, like a book you reread or a place you go or something you listen to.

[53:37] Claire Karpen: Um I'm a big walker and music listen to listener. So um often if I am in a dark place, I will um I will either have a really good cry at home that's usually brought on by like some kind of music, you know. Um definitely one of those. Um I have lots of those. Um, and then uh, but to get myself kind of um out of it or move or like like I was saying before, like moving kind of through it. Um, I will often I will often take walks. I'm a big walker, so um and I'll just go for a while and I won't talk to people. I'm not like I won't hop on the phone with someone on a walk. I'll just like put on music and I will I will walk. Um that often allows my the sort of noise to kind of like work itself out and then kind of get out.

And I think also just the physical move, like physical movement does a big really helps. But in terms of like tangible, also tangible things, like are there, you know, my mom has this thing that she says where she created um, I think she calls it a me file. She has like a file of like stuff of encouragement stuff. And so I I did create one of those once upon a time. So somewhere in my apartment at home, I have like a file of like old emails or letters or things like that that um that can often lift me up. And actually, I think before the pandemic hit, at some point I was cleaning stuff out and I found a box that was full of like cards from shows and and um and like opening night memorabilia and stuff like that, and going through that actually was really helpful because it reminded me that I had done things, and it's so easy when I'm in a dark place to feel like I haven't done anything or that anything that I've done isn't really valid or silly or whatever.

And even just reading like a card from like college or something reminds me, oh yeah, like you know, like we did that, you know, and even if it is it even if it still does feel a little like silly or um or long ago, it's great because it just reminds me that I've lived a life, and there is something about the accumulation of your own life that can feel really good to remember. So I'll do that. And art and and art. Like for me, it's particularly music. Sometimes it's seeing seeing shows, but often it's it's something not theater related. It's like a pizza like music will do stuff for me. And every now and then when I really get into a good book, a good book will save my life. That that definitely happens.

[56:25] Leah Walsh: Yeah, there's nothing like that feeling if one really brings you in. Um, speaking of that, the last question is has there been anything of any art form that you've seen or read recently that you want to recommend.

[56:39] Claire Karpen: Ooh. Ooh, oh, that's that's a good question. That's a good question. Um there is this one book that I love that uh is that I always tell people to read, and I feel like nobody reads it, but I really liked it. Uh that's not true. A couple of my friends have actually picked it up. They don't they don't seem to have the same reaction that I do, though. So this is a beautiful book that I love, and I think it's because it's um it's about a lot of things, but it's called How to Be Both, and it's by this writer Allie Smith, and it's um it's in two parts, and the way that it was published is the parts are kind of reversed, and so um, but I recommend doing it the way obviously the way that I read it because it worked for me, but it um I think it I think I think it works really well this way is um to read there's like a contemporary part and then there's a part that a lot of it takes place during the Italian Renaissance, and I recommend reading contemporary part first and then the Italian Renaissance part second.

Um the reason I like it is because particularly the Italian Renaissance part is um about uh a painter, and um and the way the way that that is discussed and talked about is really really it is just written beautifully and really moves me. And the other reason I love that book is because it's one of those books where I think probably I was reading it too fast, but I definitely was reading it to a point where I suddenly had a like revelation and realized that I had to go back and reread it. And so it's one of those where I was like, wait, what? And then I and then I and then I had to go back and reread it. And then since then it's been a book that like I keep rereading um and it keeps it keeps um giving me stuff. And of course I'm trying to figure out if I can turn it into something. So there's also that. But it's a it's a beautiful, it's a beautiful book.

[58:39] Leah Walsh: Um Claire, thank you so much. This was really...

[58:42] Claire Karpen: Thank you, Leah.

[58:45] Claire Karpen: Thank you for inviting me. I'm such I'm so um grateful to be a part of this.

[58:58] Leah Walsh: Thank you for listening to the Compass Podcast. If you find these conversations valuable to your life as an artist and would like to support the ongoing production of the Compass, please consider becoming a patron at Patreon.com slash The Compass Podcast. Pledges start at as little as one dollar a month. Anything you can give would be greatly appreciated. Also, if you have a moment, please rate or review in iTunes. Every little bit helps other listeners to find the podcast. I'd like to thank the following people for their generosity. The Compass Cover Art is by Kim Miller, music by Brandon Speeth, audio assistance from Nick Choxie, and a special thanks to Frankie J. Alvarez. See you next time.