This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Leah Walsh: Hi, and welcome to The Compass, the podcast documenting the struggles of life as an artist.

[0:05] Leah Walsh: I'm Leah Walsh.

[0:06] Leah Walsh: My guest today is Phil Pickens.

[0:09] Leah Walsh: Phil is an incredible musician and songwriter. We went to the University of Evansville together, and I'm very excited to have him on the podcast and hear a little bit about his process and his experiences training as an actor and now pursuing music.

[0:24] Leah Walsh: I hope you enjoy the 24th episode of The Compass.

[0:39] Leah Walsh: So thank you so much for coming today, Phil.

[0:42] Phil Pickens: Thanks for having me.

[0:43] Leah Walsh: So what do you do to try to keep yourself from going to the dark side as an artist?

[0:48] Phil Pickens: Um I try to stay very busy.

[0:51] Phil Pickens: Yeah.

[0:52] Phil Pickens: Try to avoid the dark side. Um that could be like anything, whether it's writing a song or seeing a prince play, or uh just getting outside and walking around, taking a run. I don't know, just doing anything to I don't feel like I'm void of I don't know, creative energy.

[1:12] Leah Walsh: Mm-hmm.

[1:13] Leah Walsh: What is it when you are feeling like you're going to the dark side? What does that mean for you? What does it feel like?

[1:17] Phil Pickens: Um I guess it's just a feeling of uh anxiety. Just feels like there's uh some type of timer on myself and I'm about to implode or something, yeah. Um yeah, so it's just like when I get that kind of feeling, it's like I gotta run away from it. I gotta do something, and uh you know, and then sometimes it's easier to do one thing than the other. That's a little frustrating at times. Uh but you know, just trying to keep your mind off of that.

[1:53] Leah Walsh: Are there times when because you're m are you only pursuing music right now, or are you pursuing acting as well?

[1:59] Phil Pickens: Uh just music.

[2:00] Phil Pickens: Just music mainly. Um are there times when you feel like you can't like you just can't pick up your guitar and like um work on something to get out of that place?

[2:14] Phil Pickens: Yeah, definitely. I mean, you know, like uh with my day job, you know, there'll be like certain periods of times where it's impossible. So I have to kind of like prep myself and know that like for two weeks like this is not gonna happen. Um I just have to kind of be okay with that. But then it's also like because I know what those times are, like I can kind of prep in a way like before and after and be like, alright, I gotta get this and this and this done, um, and then have game plans so when I'm out of that I can take advantage of the time that you do have.

[2:47] Leah Walsh: Exactly.

[2:48] Phil Pickens: And then like try to do something, like sometimes I have to travel for work, so I'll be out of the country for a couple weeks, and um I mean I guess I could bring my guitar, but most of the time I'm working from like 8 a.m. to like 8 p.m. Then like when I get back, like I don't want to do anything. So it's like it's a little frustrating. Then like I miss the instrument or I miss like the act of like writing something. Um so then I'll just I don't know, like I'll go to the gym on those days or something like that, or listen to new music.

[3:14] Leah Walsh: What is your day job right now? Is this the same place you've been at for a long time?

[3:28] Phil Pickens: Yeah, forever.

[3:30] Leah Walsh: Can you tell the listeners a little bit about what that is?

[3:33] Phil Pickens: Work for a fashion company.

[3:35] Leah Walsh: Mm-hmm.

[3:36] Phil Pickens: Um it's not as glamorous as it sounds. Um but it's like a full time nine to five type gig.

[3:46] Phil Pickens: Yeah, more like a nine to six gig. I think all nine to fives have kind of transitioned to longer hours. But um yeah, it's a full time gig and then uh I work for uh wholesale, so I work with different buyers from like department stores, specialty stores across North America and trying to sell them some clothes.

[4:11] Leah Walsh: How has it been how long exactly have you worked there?

[4:14] Phil Pickens: That's the first question. Um I guess like eight years.

[4:19] Leah Walsh: Wow.

[4:20] Leah Walsh: Is that pretty much the whole time you've been in New York?

[4:23] Phil Pickens: Yeah, pretty much, yeah.

[4:24] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[4:25] Phil Pickens: Yeah. I uh I got it for a temp agency and that was like I was going around to different things. I was working in real estate for a little bit, then I was at like the HR department for a little bit and then uh yeah, and then I went to work um like in the fashion world they have like two markets, they have like a fall winter collection that uh we sell and then a spring summer, so I worked on those markets and then uh and then they had me on after that.

[4:57] Leah Walsh: So what have the positives been about this job as far as allowing you to work on your music?

[5:04] Phil Pickens: Um I mean I guess the positives have been that it's uh it's still in like a creative mindset.

[5:11] Phil Pickens: You know, like you see the shows and they're inspiring, you know, you see like these crazy like gowns or suits or whatever and you know that they came from an idea.

[5:21] Leah Walsh: Right.

[5:22] Phil Pickens: Um so it's it's exciting to be a participant in that way. Um it's also you know, it's uh you know there's an artist mentality I guess that still runs through it so you know if I have a gig or if I have something to do like they're a little more flexible around that's good with me doing that.

[5:43] Leah Walsh: Yeah um they support that you're also pursuing something else.

[5:47] Phil Pickens: Yeah and then the first couple years I wasn't full time. Um I would just kind of come in as a freelancer and so like at that point like when I was still pursuing acting I was able to go to shows um and as long as it like didn't conflict with those two major markets it worked out. Um and then like as I kind of transitioned to music I was like well I shouldn't kind of just do this full time help make the rent.

[6:16] Phil Pickens: Yeah and uh the music for the most part is at night every weekend so that's something I can try to juggle.

[6:25] Leah Walsh: Right.

[6:25] Phil Pickens: There's not as much of the like oh can you audition tomorrow at two PM yeah going on.

[6:30] Phil Pickens: Yeah and that would stress me out.

[6:32] Phil Pickens: Yeah when I was doing that it's just like trying to explain that all the time or just feel like I was always being an inconvenience to somebody.

[6:43] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[6:44] Phil Pickens: So does it give you a kind of stability do you feel like um it gives gives you enough financially that you're like okay.

[6:51] Phil Pickens: Yeah well I mean I can allow myself to future habits. It's nice to like have a schedule.

[6:58] Phil Pickens: Uh huh. Like no like this is where I have to be Monday and you know throughout the week, like these are my hours and and then I can juggle everything around that. So for that I like it.

[7:11] Leah Walsh: So since you moved to New York what was that transition from acting and musician to now focusing just on music? Was there a moment where you were like, oh this is what I really want to be doing?

[7:26] Phil Pickens: Um I guess so. I mean I guess it was it sort of evolved. I mean I always played music and like I played music in high school I mean I started playing guitar when I was ten so it was always just like something that I always had with me.

[7:40] Phil Pickens: And then going to school for acting like when it wasn't studies or acting I was like somewhere playing guitar.

[7:49] Phil Pickens: And that for me was like always just like a source of comfort. It wasn't it was just something that it was just like something I could release, you know.

[7:58] Leah Walsh: Um were you always songwriting as well or were you mostly playing other people's music?

[8:03] Phil Pickens: Um like back in college.

[8:06] Phil Pickens: My own music I've done like covers but even like when I was first learning I mean I would do like I was taking like proper classical guitar lessons and then I went into jazz and so I was like learning all that and then when I fell into jazz then I was like improv and then improv kinda led into like writing and then that just opened up a whole new world.

[8:26] Phil Pickens: It was like oh you know you can do anything and be creative and it's like oh let's add some words that's cool.

[8:33] Leah Walsh: Well as an actor that seems like the natural progression.

[8:36] Phil Pickens: Yeah.

[8:37] Phil Pickens: Yeah and I think like and then uh yeah then going to school for acting that was kind of a cool way to get in touch with s like characters like in the heads of characters and stories and all that and I think that also like influenced how I'd write a song, you know, and then that became just like kept evolving.

[8:59] Phil Pickens: Um then right after college I went right into an apprentice program at Actors Theater, which was awesome.

[9:08] Phil Pickens: And you know, I spent, you know, that that time was great because it was like getting to see like all the workings of the theater, like seeing all the different like how all the gears fit together, um which I had never really seen I guess to that scale.

[9:25] Leah Walsh: Um that's such a great theater too.

[9:28] Phil Pickens: Yeah, yeah.

[9:29] Phil Pickens: And even through that process like I would just continue to, you know, play music in my apartment. I always just kinda used it as a kind of just a therapeutic kind of thing. You know um and then when I moved to New York I think I went straight from college to actor theater, actors theater in New York.

[9:47] Phil Pickens: And when I got here, I was just kind of like man, this place is huge and this is scary and shit.

[9:55] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[9:56] Phil Pickens: And um and it kind of felt like it was hard to have a like a like a voice here I guess to start and there's so many people.

[9:56] Phil Pickens: There's so many people. And there's so much great art and then there's also so much bad art and then like I don't know just kinda seeing all that put together and and then you know like after like a week or so and be like oh I try to find a job no one's paying me to show up.

[10:25] Phil Pickens: I don't know why.

[10:27] Phil Pickens: Why is that? Um but then yeah then I was just kind of juggling both, you know, and I think like music was still like therapy I guess for me and was you know working on the audition circuit and and then I was asked to go back to actors theater for a show and that was awesome.

[10:47] Phil Pickens: And then it went from like being two months like being creative, you know, which is amazing. This is like liberating feeling of just like I get to wake up today, I get to do this play, I can wake up the next morning, I can write, I can do whatever, go back, do this play, like and just like doing that for like a month and a half was like awesome.

[11:11] Phil Pickens: And then I had to pack my back and go back to New York.

[11:15] Phil Pickens: And I was like, man, this sucks.

[11:18] Phil Pickens: And um and I think through all of that I realized like the one thing that I always had uh was music and then I got the idea, I was like, well, maybe I should share it.

[11:30] Phil Pickens: You know, like maybe this is like just one day out of the blue.

[11:34] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[11:35] Phil Pickens: Since you've been playing since the age of ten.

[11:37] Phil Pickens: Yeah, I was like, oh no, this is like, you know, it's just funny. It's like, oh yeah, music, that's gonna be, you know, financially rewarding, you know, you know, but um, but it was just something that was I felt like I had more control of.

[11:55] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[11:55] Phil Pickens: You know, like I could, you know, whether I got the part or not wasn't up to me, but whether I went home and wrote a song was totally up to me.

[12:05] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[12:06] Phil Pickens: Um and I liked I like having that control and like being a part of the like I like the process of that, you know.

[12:15] Phil Pickens: That was the thing I liked about actors theater, it's all about new works and stuff like that. Like that was just so cool to me.

[12:22] Phil Pickens: I was like, what can we like build?

[12:24] Leah Walsh: From scratch.

[12:25] Phil Pickens: Yeah.

[12:26] Phil Pickens: And um, you know, sometimes it's an actor you can't decide like what part you're gonna play or what you're gonna be able to do and what's it?

[12:33] Leah Walsh: Wouldn't that be great if we could?

[12:35] Phil Pickens: I know.

[12:36] Phil Pickens: Maybe like somewhere in the back of my mind I thought I could do that or something, like, uh, just you know.

[12:41] Phil Pickens: I'll play all these great parts that I've always wanted to play.

[12:44] Leah Walsh: Exactly.

[12:45] Phil Pickens: Exactly.

[12:47] Phil Pickens: But um yeah, and then I think when I started like getting into like one or the idea of like, oh, I should share this, I wanna pursue this, I want to get more serious about writing songs, I wanna do this in a more legit way.

[13:01] Phil Pickens: I I think I decided that I needed to like take away the acting element a little bit.

[13:07] Phil Pickens: I need to focus on one thing.

[13:10] Phil Pickens: Right, you know.

[13:11] Phil Pickens: So if I get home from you know, the day job at six, or you know, by the time we get home seven, then if I'm gonna go back to work, what am I gonna go back to work on?

[13:25] Phil Pickens: Right.

[13:34] Leah Walsh: So what is the process for you? Like to have this control of being able to you have the control to go home and write a song. How does that all start for you? Is it usually more of like improving on the guitar or is it like, oh I have a lyric idea that's yeah, I mean I think it's all different.

[13:51] Phil Pickens: Yeah, it's different. Yeah, they all kind of present themselves in different ways. And I think like when I first started doing it, it was a lot easier to get to the dark side because I didn't know how to do it. Um I was just I don't know, I was just trying to figure out how to do it. So then like I would just get stuck on like one phrase or like one idea, and it would just like haunt me for like days. I couldn't I couldn't get out of it. Um and then like the more I do it the more I realize like, you know this isn't like, you know, I'm not going on daily letterman tomorrow I'm like this is fine, like this is like this song doesn't have to be that precious. Like if it's not you know, I shouldn't consume that much time right now. I could work on other things. I could work on a new song, you know. It's like better to have two hundred bad songs or like sketches. Yeah sketches to get to one great idea than just focus on one okay idea.

[14:56] Leah Walsh: Now you play with like a band.

[14:59] Phil Pickens: Yeah.

[14:59] Leah Walsh: Right?

[15:00] Phil Pickens: Yeah, they're awesome.

[15:01] Leah Walsh: The astronauts? Is that what they're called?

[15:03] Phil Pickens: That's what I call 'em.

[15:05] Leah Walsh: It's your pet name.

[15:06] Phil Pickens: Yeah, that's my pet name. Um what has that been like to kind of build a band to play your music?

[15:13] Phil Pickens: It's been awesome. I mean it's it's been really great because I work with some stellar musicians and just all around great guys. Like so you know I and they all come from theater backgrounds as well. It's just great. So it's like when you we get in the room with a song, you know, like you know I could go in I say like okay this is this is the bass part or this is that but like really what we do is I come in with a song and then we just experiment with it and we just kinda so everyone like creates their own parts and so we kind of you know build it from the ground up. And that's what's really exciting. 'Cause like an idea that I would have for like the bass guitar or like an electric rip, you know, like I'll be like, oh that's cool, but then like they'll come in with their own idea and I'll be like, oh man, I would never have thought of that. That is so cool. Um so that's been super exciting.

[16:11] Leah Walsh: The collaboration part.

[16:13] Phil Pickens: Yeah, yeah, definitely. And when did you decide that that was something you wanted to not just play solo?

[16:19] Phil Pickens: I mean, I think a little bit started when I was just trying to initially get gigs in the uh in the city. And so at the time I asked one of my friends, I was like, Oh, how do you get a gig? And uh and that friend um was like, Here's how you do it, and uh you won't be blood with you.

[16:43] Leah Walsh: Sure. So how do you do it? For others' information.

[16:47] Phil Pickens: Uh well, you find a venue that you want to play at that you can feasibly play at that point, you know. And um, like for me, um it was my first I don't know, I have like some different small gigs that I would get billed on like I would get it on the bill through other people as far as like establishing my own bill. Um I went through some friends that had already played at this venue, they knew the booking agent, they just said, Hey, you know, just say like, you know, you say good things and you know, like the spot, you know. And so that's exactly how it happened. I just emailed the guy, said, Hey, you know, and just gave a big window, you know, it wasn't like, can I play tomorrow at six, you know, right? Any time this month and Anytime. Any play the lunch. I'll play the lunch. Yeah, exactly. I will work it out.

[17:42] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[17:43] Phil Pickens: And uh so then from that then, you know, you go there and you be respectful of the venue and uh staff and I think like everything else. Is it the kind of thing where you have to promise like I'll bring thirty people with me or something?

[18:02] Phil Pickens: Yeah.

[18:03] Leah Walsh: Like thirty audience members.

[18:04] Phil Pickens: Yeah. I mean definitely I mean they definitely want acts in there that are gonna fill up the bar that are gonna, you know, make the money. I mean that's what they're there for, you know. Um so you know there was a little pressure to have then like the great things like having great friends to support you, you know and like, you know, not being afraid to reach out and be like, I really need you guys to come. I need to make a good impression. Right. At this venue. 'Cause I'd like to be asked back, you know. And then it also like increases your chances of having other people that don't know your music come and then more people to see it.

[18:39] Leah Walsh: Are there any favorite venues of yours now that you've been playing for a while in the city?

[18:44] Phil Pickens: I mean I always go back to Rockwood. It's I don't know. I think it's like I think it was one of the first venues that I walked into in New York and I was just like, oh this is amazing. It's got a great vibe. You feel like you're in the room with the artists. Um you feel like it's conversational. Yeah, just feel so connected. And then the fact that they have it at you know um someone play every hour it's like you know something's on your cup of tea you just have to give it a second. You know the next you know next week it might be great. Yeah. Like it's uh yeah, and they do a great job of bringing in great people and um yeah.

[19:30] Leah Walsh: Um can you tell me a little bit about where you're from originally?

[19:33] Phil Pickens: Yeah. Um from Stone Mountain, Georgia. Yeah. Um just kind of a suburban um town east of Atlanta, about twenty minutes outside. Um yeah.

[19:49] Leah Walsh: That's pretty close.

[19:50] Phil Pickens: It's pretty close to Atlanta. Yeah. Because you spend a lot of time in the city. Is there a big like music? Music scene there.

[19:55] Phil Pickens: Once I had a car, I was there all the time. Yeah. Yeah. But it's pretty spread out, so it's like not something you can like walk around and do all those things. But even like back then there was a place in uh Decatur uh called Abbey's Attic, it's still there, and it's fantastic, and it's another like singer-songwriter, intimate room. I don't know, I guess I'm just like drawn to the format. I just find it highly addicting. Yeah. Um but yeah, I would go there all the time in high school. All the time.

[20:27] Leah Walsh: What kind of bands would you see there?

[20:30] Phil Pickens: Um, I mean I haven't seen anything from you know, rock and jazz, soul, like, you know, any show that we could get into, you know. That was under twenty-one. I mean, and they were pretty good about it too at that time, yeah.

[20:46] Leah Walsh: Do you have brothers and sisters?

[20:47] Phil Pickens: I do. I have um a brother and two sisters.

[20:52] Leah Walsh: And what is your family make of you pursuing music as a career?

[20:57] Phil Pickens: Uh they're I mean they're very supportive. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. Super supportive. My mom's always like, make sure you have plan B. Like that's what she's always said. But now I realize, like, ah yeah, yeah. I mean, it's like I guess I do have plan B. It's called this full time job. It's like I'm doing A, B, C, D like, all right. Well, especially since you've been at the same place for so long. It's definitely a solid plan B.

[21:22] Leah Walsh: Exactly. So But no one else in your family has kind of gone this route.

[21:28] Phil Pickens: Um, no. Yeah, I think my dad would have liked to have been a musician. In fact, we got guitars at the same time.

[21:36] Leah Walsh: Really?

[21:36] Phil Pickens: Like trying to like learn together. Uh uh. Then the I don't know, I guess I just picked it up last year. It's easier when you're a kid to pick up new things like that.

[21:45] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[21:45] Phil Pickens: Well, yeah, languages, instruments. Responsibilities are much lower. Yeah, and I was a latch key kid, so like as soon as I got home, it was just like, alright, guitar time. So And you're married to an artist as well.

[22:03] Leah Walsh: Yes.

[22:03] Phil Pickens: An actor, among other things. Um, so what is that like for you guys? Do you kind of find a way to encourage each other?

[22:11] Phil Pickens: Yeah, definitely. When you're juggling the oh the I'm gonna go off and do the job I'm not crazy about for eight hours and then Yeah, yeah. I mean I'll see you on the other side. Exactly. And it's good to have I mean, it's been great that way 'cause like we get it, you know, it's like you know a good understanding of like w what it is and when it can be so frustrating to not to do the thing that you love all the time. Right. And I can like, you know, can bog either one of us down and then you know, I think you know, we do a pretty good job of either giving each other the space to like get out of that on our own behalf, or like trying to help the other person get out of that whole, you know. I know Frankie and I try to we kind of have a rule that we can mostly follow where it's like if one of us is down the other one can't be down too. It's like one or the other or if we're both down at the same time it's a mess. Yeah we tried we try to stick to that.

[23:13] Leah Walsh: Yeah yeah so that the whole household doesn't go under at the same time.

[23:19] Phil Pickens: Um have you guys gotten to collaborate on any stuff together?

[23:22] Phil Pickens: Um oh yes we do we do a holiday album yeah called the Sugar Pond.

[23:32] Leah Walsh: How did that start?

[23:34] Phil Pickens: Um it started 'cause her uh old roommate is a bass player and then at the time I was like five blocks away um my guy'd invested in some recording equipment um in my apartment that I've been able to kind of like toy with and figure out and so I don't know we just I don't know whose idea what it was but we're like well we're all here like let's like pick like four songs and uh make a holiday album and so I started with one year and then so now it's just been tradition. So just every year we kind of frantically get ourselves together what Christmas carols can we cover. I know I know. Like I think this past year we were trying to be more responsible about it and try to think of those things like in the fall. And it's really hard to think about how it was during that time but like you know just like to kind of spit out ideas and say yeah the song the song and then but then it usually just happens like the week before the holidays everything's been crazy.

[24:37] Leah Walsh: Right. So what are you working on right now? I know I I saw a Facebook invite today for an upcoming Rockwood show.

[24:44] Phil Pickens: Yes. But I think that you had mentioned that you just recorded something, or you're about to record something or Yeah, I'm in the um I'm in the process of recording. So um last week of January, then we went into the studio for a couple days and we did like basic tracking for three songs and um just something that I kind of wanted to do. I kinda wanted to divide up the idea of creating an entire album in a week, I guess. Like I wanted to like space it out a little bit just so like everyone had a little time to breathe and um so what is basic tracking mean for for my actor brain.

[25:27] Phil Pickens: It's I mean it's just basically we were kinda all set up in the room, all you know, plugged in, we played the songs. Um it's just basically like the um the core of the song. And then after that then there can be things for like overdubs, um certain things that you don't want to record as you're doing it, like sometimes if there's like a background vocal but you want to have the piano isolator, you'll just feed in the uh background vocals later. You'll do that as a secondary option. Um and then it was also fun because there's also like different instruments that you can kind of play with that like decides like what we can do at a live show to say like, oh well for this recording, wouldn't it be cool that we did this?

Like if everybody's playing two different instruments on that track. And like throw in a different idea. Not all of them like stick to the wall, but it's it's fun to like create something that's a little different, a little exciting, you know, nothing that like is going to like change the integrity of the song, but just something to you know, have a little ear candy.

[26:37] Leah Walsh: Yeah. So how did you learn about all this technical like recording stuff? Was it just through trial and error or playing around in your own apartment or I mean I um recorded uh an album I don't know, I guess it was like uh embarrassingly like five years ago.

[26:56] Phil Pickens: And um but in that process, like I was very involved in like the mixing stage, um with the producer, so I got to like see like step by step like what he was doing and blah blah blah blah. So I was like, alright, I'm gonna get this program and then just kind of started like reading a lot of books, watching a lot of tutorials, like just trying to like figure it out and then um which has been great because it's uh been able we've been able to like demo this material so like I can have a rough cut of like what all these songs are, like the shape of 'em, um, and make it sound the best that I can in my apartment. You know. And then like we're able to go into the studio and we know exactly what we're gonna do, you know, exactly like what the format is.

Like there's no questions about like what the performance is gonna be. We can step right. So I'm sure it's different from playing a live show. And like for this case, like we're all playing together, but you know, and we're all looking at each other, but there's also like a little bit of isolation, you know, just so certain things don't bleed, so you know, when you're just a mix it, like things don't interfere, you know. So if there's like a it would be bad if there's like this huge tape drum sound on my vocal and then so is that kind of it are you kind of being the outside ear, or do you have like a producer that you trust to kind of be keeping an eye on all of that?

[28:22] Phil Pickens: Um I have a producer that I trust, like yeah, which I think is awesome because like and I guess it's kind of been the whole thing with this collaborative process too, with like having a band, like they can bring in their ideas. Um I can bring in my ideas, and then now we have someone that can hear this from an outside perspective with a outside opinion that's and with these songs that are relatively new to him, you know. And so I think that's been like extremely helpful having that kind of gear on it. So you're recording right now, and I saw that you entered the NPR Tiny Desk concert online. You made a video for that, right?

[29:01] Phil Pickens: Yeah, and that was like right before we went into the studio. So I was like, well, we need to practice this song. So let's just do it. So we're gonna go to so we went over to uh Justin's house and then we um and then I had Ashley like bring the camera. I was like, are you gonna be the camera lady and we're just gonna do it? See, this is the bonus of being married to another artist. You have another set of hands. Um, but it seems like especially in this age of like social media and being able to put like film of yourself out there and audio of yourself out there online. Right. You kind of have to be your own publicist and your own producer in a lot of ways.

[29:41] Phil Pickens: Yeah, it's another thing. Is that um something that's exciting to you or overwhelming or like how have you juggled that? Are you still figuring it out?

[29:50] Phil Pickens: Yeah, still figuring it out. I mean, yeah, that's that's the other thing, like they don't tell you. You know, it's like after work thing. I mean, because you want to like allow some time to be creative, but then also like you realize like how important like all those things are to know. And I guess you know, like in some cases like there's other people to do that for you and but I think it's important that everyone is aware of like how that works. Like um so I've been kind of excited to like get the know that process or just try to research about that process. And so that kind of takes a a little bit of the burden off too like so if I'm traveling and I can't play guitar I'm like, well, you know, I can do some research.

Yeah I can take this time to do that. Can find ten people that I want to send this recording to when it's done. Exactly whatever. Exactly. I can figure out how to make a you know a YouTube presence and I didn't want to put it on blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

[30:46] Phil Pickens: Are you on Twitter?

[30:47] Phil Pickens: I am I don't even know why. I I don't know there was like this thing was just like here's all the social networks your band needs them like I found myself on all of them and not using any of them.

[31:00] Leah Walsh: When you do feel yourself like going to the dark side and you're having that day where you just don't feel inspired like is there anything concrete that you reach for again and again that helps you get out of it like a book you always read or a an album you go back to or a place you like to go.

[31:16] Phil Pickens: I mean I think mostly I like to get out of my apartment.

[31:20] Phil Pickens: Yeah. You know um so I'll start there I'll get out of my apartment and then like yeah I think it could be anything about like I mean I think friends are great for that. You know, meeting and connecting with friends and yeah, music. I listen to music every single day. Um, so that always helps, you know. I don't think there's like a particular album, I don't think there's a particular book or a particular walk, but I just know that I have to I have to get out of my own head.

[31:55] Phil Pickens: Yeah. So like whatever that is that I can do that, the better, you know. Um yeah, or I'll um I've been like painting recently, like I found that to be very nice.

[32:09] Phil Pickens: That's a new a new endeavor.

[32:10] Phil Pickens: Yeah, a new endeavor. Uh my mom's cool. My mom was uh she's always painted like throughout the year, so like um so we would like do like little projects when I was a kid, but then I didn't really do anything after that. And then I think there was like a point where we just didn't have like anything up on the walls in our new apartment. I was like, oh we need some artwork, and then we were like shopping for artwork. I was like, that's expensive. And I was like, let's go Michaels to get some canvases, and then like I mean, just started painting, and then I was like, oh man, this feels great, this is awesome. So that's been kind of a like a nice other I don't know, kind of like method.

[32:53] Leah Walsh: Outlet.

[32:54] Phil Pickens: Yes.

[32:54] Phil Pickens: Yeah. What kind of paint are you using?

[32:56] Phil Pickens: I just curl like, you know, nothing nothing fancy. And then like most of the times, like um, I don't know, for me, like I I don't really paint anything. Like I'm I might have a specific idea, but I won't paint anything that's um, it's it's usually pretty abstract. I usually just kinda like let the paint do what it wants.

[33:20] Phil Pickens: And then it's like, ah, if I feel very like you're just dancing with the canvas.

[33:27] Phil Pickens: Exactly, yeah. Pretending like I'm a polluck or something.

[33:33] Leah Walsh: Well, now I need to come over and see your new apartment and see what all the artwork looks like.

[33:37] Phil Pickens: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[33:39] Leah Walsh: Have you seen any shows like theater shows or concerts lately that you want to recommend?

[33:45] Phil Pickens: Um, let's see. I went to the Beacon Theater for the first time. I don't know that that's sad to say. I don't even know why I hadn't been there before. Um, but uh Ashley took me to a Josh Shitter concert and I love Josh Shredder, and that was just great. It was also great because there was a venue where I mean it's huge, but like you sit down and you like listen to the lyrics.

[34:10] Phil Pickens: Yeah. You know, you don't feel like you're in this like environment where you're like have to stand up and then like most of those venues, like I feel like obligated to have a beer in my hand if I'm standing or something.

[34:21] Leah Walsh: See you have that in activity.

[34:22] Phil Pickens: Yeah, yeah. But like at the beacon, like, hey, just sit down, listen to the music, everyone claps, some people danced, yeah. It's it's a nice venue.

[34:30] Leah Walsh: Yeah, it's great. It sounds wonderful.

[34:33] Phil Pickens: Um but highly I highly recommend Josh Ritter, he's a great artist. And then I don't know, there's a couple things that I'm looking forward to seeing. Um we're gonna go see Noises Off tomorrow.

[34:46] Leah Walsh: Lovely.

[34:47] Phil Pickens: Um excited to see that, and then um also wanna go see uh Marco's new play.

[34:56] Leah Walsh: I was gonna ask if you had seen it yet.

[34:58] Phil Pickens: No, I gotta see it. I know it just opened on Monday. Um, our friend Marco Ramirez's new play, The Royale is at Lincoln Center Theater.

[35:06] Phil Pickens: Um, we saw a preview maybe two weeks ago or a week and a half ago. It's great.

[35:12] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[35:13] Phil Pickens: So great. He's fantastic. And it's so rhythmic, just like is it I am Batman or I am not Batman?

[35:15] Leah Walsh: I am not Batman.

[35:22] Phil Pickens: Just like that play that you did back at Actors Theater. It involves like a lot of percussion and a lot of percussive sounds and language. Would highly, highly recommend it.

[35:32] Leah Walsh: Well, Phil, thank you so much for talking with me. It's such a pleasure.

[35:39] Phil Pickens: Phil was kind enough to send me a sketch of a new song he's writing called Streets of London. This kind of recording is part of his process to record this kind of sketch once he has the initial lyrics and chords worked out with a new song. I'm so thankful he decided to share this with us.

[36:20] Phil Pickens: So thin and so tall.

[36:25] Phil Pickens: I'd rather call and late not show up.

[36:32] Phil Pickens: I'd rather give myself away than be bored.

[36:40] Phil Pickens: But when the sun gives herself away, she colors me crazy.

[36:48] Phil Pickens: She colors me gray.

[36:52] Phil Pickens: And on the moon, sweet turn.

[36:58] Phil Pickens: She colors me pretty, she calls me play.

[37:16] Phil Pickens: Wanders through the night, while others might be fearful, we do just fine with our hearts pinned to our sleeves on the streets of London, that's where we'll be on the streets of London, that's where we'll be when the sun gives herself away.

[37:59] Phil Pickens: She calls me to play and on the moon, sweet where she call me crazy, she color me gray when the sun gives away.

[38:37] Phil Pickens: She colors me crazy.

[38:39] Phil Pickens: She colors me gray.

[38:49] Phil Pickens: Which colors me pretty.

[38:51] Phil Pickens: She calls me to play.

[38:56] Phil Pickens: Or she colors me pretty.