This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Leah Walsh: Hi, and welcome to The Compass, the podcast documenting the struggles of life as an artist.

[0:04] Leah Walsh: I'm Leah Walsh.

[0:06] Leah Walsh: My guest today is Caroline Fermin.

[0:08] Leah Walsh: Caroline is a wonderful dancer. I'm so glad she was able to join me for the podcast.

[0:12] Leah Walsh: We were at Juilliard together where we did work with ArtReach, a student outreach group.

[0:17] Leah Walsh: She is a fantastic dancer and a dynamic teacher who does amazing work with children and nonprofits.

[0:24] Leah Walsh: I admire her very much and love having this space and time to talk with her about her life as an artist.

[0:30] Leah Walsh: I hope you enjoy the 36th episode of The Compass.

[0:45] Leah Walsh: So what is the dark side for you? And how do you try not to go there as an artist? That's the big first question.

[0:56] Caroline Fermin: Yeah. So the dark side, yeah. The dark side for me has been really informed by trying to view it from a like a 180-degree perspective difference. So trying to see the dark side in a positive light. Um because I don't do so well compartmentalizing my experiences as an artist. So I like to be able to use everything I'm going through. Um for me, the best metaphor I can use is I see I've been using the dark side as a metaphor for like digging deep, like going very dark until it's soiled. Or um I've been thinking about the metaphor of like compost and how it is decay and it is a mess and it maybe smells bad and it doesn't look pretty. But it is the fruit of um that process and it creates growth. And that has been my experience every time with a dark side.

Every time I put off the dark side and say, like, no, I don't want to go there, like let me stay bubbly, let me stay light, let me stay productive, positive, positive. Yeah, all these um industrious words, I find that the dark side trip gets deeper and deeper when it eventually happens, and it will. So this I just went through a big transition. Um and during that time I said, you know what, to hell with it. Like I'm going in, I'm gonna go in, I'm gonna really let myself go dark. And so I let myself go there now. Um and by that I mean I let myself be ugly, I let myself be tired, I let myself be burnt out, I let myself be unproductive. Um now really dark where I start to feel you know dark feelings about myself or about my worth, that is a different type of dark side for me.

One that's not useful. So I try to make a delineation between the two. And I find if I indulge the darkness of the slow place, of the messy place, of the lazy sometimes, or jaded, oh, that's been a dark place. Yeah. Then those other that other darkness of like you're not worthwhile, that usually doesn't come out.

[3:33] Leah Walsh: That's a hard thing about us using our bodies and using ourselves for our art though, is that sometimes it is easy to be like, Oh, I'm not working or someone doesn't want my work, and so therefore they don't want me or my the worthwhile nice like you said, like yeah, if you can keep that separate, that's that's huge.

[3:55] Caroline Fermin: I mean it's not always successful, but I find that as I get older um it's it's a muscle. It's a muscle that I've flexed and practiced and to the point of doing really cheesy stuff, like writing a post-it on the mirror every time you are beautiful, look in the mirror and say you are beautiful. This is how it sounds and it but it works. Or um I try to stay playful as a way of staying out of some really darkness. So, you know, sometimes it's helpful to journal and to discuss and debate, but often I just walk away having an existential crisis. So, um I try to go back to play and I'll do a little internet game with some friends, like I'll email them um a short dance phrase that I've been working on and but I'll write it, I'll I won't show it to them.

I'll write it in words, kind of like an exquisite corpse. Uh-huh. And then they have to interpret the writing in their own dance, like in the back. You know, something silly and fun, or I make a lot of dance videos, quote unquote, where um I think things that I think are hilarious, like a funny scenario, and just have someone dancing around and post that every now and then. Just something to keep it playful.

[5:15] Leah Walsh: Yeah. Um, can you tell me a little bit about the transition that you mentioned?

[5:22] Caroline Fermin: Yeah. So as a dancer, your limit for a certain type of work comes with age and with age on the body. And so maybe it's not necessarily, you know, your age per se with the age on your body and um the work that I was doing um my whole life was very rigorous. So classical ballet and hardcore modern and then um getting into some contemporary work, some Israeli style um movement, and then the work that we were making with the company I was with Galene Dance was very aggressive, very athletic. Like big jump, land in a squat, big jump, land in a squat, run, hit someone, like hit a wall, like run into a brick wall, and fall down. I'm like, let's explore that for a week. Oh my god. I remember this one thing I had to do was um other people would jump straight up in the air and grab the bottom of their feet and I would have to try to roll under their feet before they landed again.

[6:31] Leah Walsh: Oh my, how many times did you get stomped out?

[6:34] Caroline Fermin: Zero times. Yes. Because good job. But you know I left that rehearsal like with you know a year shaved off of my life. Um and then on top of that the touring, um which I'm really glad I did. That was a dream of mine as a kid to travel the world and dance, and I did. That's amazing. Um, but it takes a toll. And so around the time I turned twenty-eight, I started to feel my knees sounded like cellophane. Um, and I was super tired and just feeling thin, literally and metaphorically, and it got to the point where I actually had a heart murmur.

[7:16] Leah Walsh: Oh my goodness.

[7:17] Caroline Fermin: I was so so tired. My body was just like you need to stop. And I knew deep down, like that I could have pushed on, but I also knew I was just tired and also tired of the lifestyle. That's you know, it's a lifestyle for a young person to run around to get paid very little, no PT, no massage, you know, you do it yourself. It's a labor of love, but it's not sustainable, and it's a huge problem actually in the dance world right now.

[7:52] Leah Walsh: So do you feel like I'm I wanna keep talking about this transition, but do you feel like you were aware of this? I I'm just curious for dancers, like is that something that was talked about at school or from older dancers? Like, was that something that you felt mentally prepared for having to deal with someday, or was it just could did it come as a surprise?

[8:16] Caroline Fermin: A little of both. I think we were prepared as much as we could at school. We had information about this place called career transitions for dancers, which was really useful and you know, counseling and stuff like that, but um I think it was a shock to me in terms of how quickly it came. It came a little sooner than I thought for myself. Um because I'm known for stamina and consistency, so I was amazed that it happened that quickly.

[8:44] Leah Walsh: Right.

[8:45] Caroline Fermin: Um and I wasn't prepared for the um the lifestyle problem. You know, I I don't think my teachers knew they didn't grow up in this time that we grow up in as artists right now where everyone is hustling.

[9:04] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[9:04] Caroline Fermin: Like they were like, you're gonna join a company. Good work. And how now it's much more everyone's freelance keeping it. Even if you're with a company, it's sometimes right.

[9:14] Leah Walsh: Yeah. I mean even if you're with a very established company, you know, you're I was just talking to actually someone um who was my Uber driver, uh-huh, and he started chatting and wow, he's really knowledgeable about the arts and he was like, Oh yeah, I sing for the Metropolitan Opera, um like core and when we're off I drive Ubers.

[9:33] Leah Walsh: It's like Yep.

[9:35] Caroline Fermin: Yeah. Sound relatable.

[9:38] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[9:39] Caroline Fermin: So I don't think I was prepared for that, and I don't think my friends were either. I've got friends that work in very high level prestigious companies in Europe and the United States who are 30 and done. They moved back home to, you know, Nebraska or wherever and are just sitting at their parents' house, like zoned out because hired. That was too much that was a lot of work.

[10:01] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[10:01] Caroline Fermin: A lot of work.

[10:06] Leah Walsh: So you packed it into those years.

[10:08] Caroline Fermin: Yeah. So intensely. And you're an athlete. You know, there was when I was younger, I was like, dancers aren't athletes, they're artists.

[10:15] Leah Walsh: Right.

[10:16] Caroline Fermin: But as I get older, I'm like, no, that's athletic. Like we're definitely athletes. And you look at any athlete and they have a shelf life physically. Um now that being said, I think that there's a lot of things older dancers can offer and I've seen it, but it's hard to find people that want to see that in the United States or that want to choreograph for that or that will pay money to see that. And I think it's similar in many art forms, but dance especially, you know. And I a lot of it comes from if you're not willing to dance this many hours for this much money. Um find some of that, and they're usually much younger and willing. So I made the choice around like 29 to start transitioning out for physical and mental reasons. And um that was not pretty. That was rough. Yeah. Really sad. Really sad. Uh and still is sad, but I am more at peace with it.

[11:16] Leah Walsh: So you've been doing a lot of teaching, you said?

[11:19] Caroline Fermin: Yeah, I've always been a teacher. Always had a second passion, which I think is really lucky.

[11:24] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[11:25] Caroline Fermin: I don't I know that's not true for everyone. Uh that being said, it doesn't fill the same space as dance. And I'm learning that. Um, but yeah, I've been teaching a lot, too much, actually. It's really nice with all my experience, I get a lot of great jobs. Um, so that's positive. But I haven't performed in over a year and a half. I haven't choreographed, I haven't seen a dance show because I work nights teaching after school.

[11:57] Leah Walsh: Oh my gosh.

[11:58] Caroline Fermin: Yeah. Empty, like empty of you need something to fill, like refill your well.

[12:04] Leah Walsh: Yeah. Creative well.

[12:06] Caroline Fermin: And so back to like this idea of like little games. Oh, I maybe can't put on like make a magnum opus, but I can just do small things to stay creative.

[12:18] Leah Walsh: Are you teaching all um like dance classes? Or are you using dance to teach other things?

[12:25] Caroline Fermin: Yeah, good question. I'm so curious.

[12:30] Caroline Fermin: It's um I I teach straight up dance, and in those regards I like to teach, you know, in those types of classes, I like to teach much higher level um kids with teaching dance to teach other stuff.

[12:47] Caroline Fermin: That comes through nonprofit organizations such as A Step, where we work with kids and and uh or or you know, young adults teaching them leadership skills or uh self-confidence through the arts.

[13:03] Caroline Fermin: Um one of my favorite things that I do right now is work with a company called Dance Wave, which is a nonprofit for kids down in Brooklyn.

[13:12] Caroline Fermin: And starting kind of I kind of made my own job there. I said, I really would like to work for you. I think this is how many hours a week I would work, this is what I would do the first time I ever did that. Like I'll just be a consultant, your education consultant.

[13:28] Caroline Fermin: And are they they are able to pay you as a teaching honest?

[13:31] Caroline Fermin: Yeah, as uh I'm more a consultant there. It's really interesting. I really made my own role there. She said, you know, what would you want to do here? And I said, let me think about it. I'll think about it for a couple weeks, and I wrote a pro a proposal and it was very nice.

[13:47] Caroline Fermin: Um and so for them I'm kind of helping create uh an assessment program. So the company uses the tools that I'm creating, and it's still a work in process, to work with the kids on things that are outside of the art form.

[14:05] Caroline Fermin: So uh how you participate in a group? Are you professional? Do you come on time? Are you respectful? Do you have any critical thinking skills? Do you um how honest are you in your assessment of yourself? All skills that are useful if you want to be a doctor, if you want to be a dancer, like it doesn't matter.

[14:24] Caroline Fermin: And so and then I'm developing a rubric and an assessment so that we can kind of track the kids' progress. And through that rubric, we are securing different types of grants for leadership training and stuff.

[14:39] Caroline Fermin: So it's a really sad. It's really exciting, yeah. Really satisfying job. Um, but it's part part part-time.

[14:48] Leah Walsh: Can we talk a little bit about how you piece together the financial stuff these days?

[14:56] Caroline Fermin: Yeah. Finance is something that I think more artists should talk openly about.

[15:00] Caroline Fermin: Yeah. Like real numbers. Um I I was always the one to negotiate our contract in the company and look up legal help and research other companies and compile information.

[15:14] Caroline Fermin: So, you know, if anyone asks, you know, what my salary is, how much I think people should be charging, I will give real numbers. I I think that's a source of power for artists.

[15:26] Caroline Fermin: Um, and actually, did you know it's illegal to have a contract that bars you from talking about your salary?

[15:33] Leah Walsh: Oh, federal.

[15:35] Caroline Fermin: I feel like it's just like an unspoken thing that you're not supposed to ask.

[15:38] Leah Walsh: But that's good to know that it's not a legal thing.

[15:41] Caroline Fermin: Yes. So um it's not legally binding federally.

[15:46] Leah Walsh: That's awesome that you took that initiative on yourself.

[15:48] Caroline Fermin: Yeah. To learn about it. And now that you're like freelancing and doing your own thing, I'm sure it comes in handy.

[15:55] Caroline Fermin: So yeah, so I've been able to kind of look at my expenses, see how much I would need to make. So I've come up for my with myself um a weekly rate, a monthly rate, a day rate, an hourly rate for myself.

[16:10] Caroline Fermin: And that's kind of what I've settled on, and that's what I give out to everyone, depending on you know, what kind of project I'll say this is what you could pay me hourly, this is what you could pay me daily, weekly, or we can talk tour.

[16:24] Leah Walsh: Do you do you feel like you ever get pressure from them to be like, No, we're the ones who say this is what we pay you hourly?

[16:30] Caroline Fermin: Well, I become like a business woman absolutely.

[16:32] Leah Walsh: That's amazing.

[16:33] Caroline Fermin: I like actually dancing for a company was like, I'm going into the freelance jungle, and I bought myself like a blazer and heels. I was like, I'm doing this.

[16:44] Caroline Fermin: You know, you had the makeover montage. Like, and now your outside matches your inside. But I I I thought, you know, if you're gonna change the way that this is going, and I feel very strongly like I will get very heated about this.

[16:52] Caroline Fermin: I feel very strongly that my career be treated like a legitimate career. And so you have a lot of people oh, how about this one, your favorite? You should be so lucky that you're doing what you love.

[17:16] Caroline Fermin: Or like for m what about for me? Let's do fi like fifty bucks. And would you ever do that with your hairdresser? Like, this is a great hairstyle, but can I just pay you, you know, half of what I paid you last time? And I'll buy you I'll buy you pizza.

[17:30] Caroline Fermin: Yeah, and I'll buy you pizza. That never happens, and I think it delegitimizes this as a career choice, as a legitimate career choice.

[17:40] Caroline Fermin: And I spend a lot of time in Europe traveling too, and a lot of dancers go to Europe and that is that's so legitimate. Like you can work there as a dancer respect. And they yeah, they have a structure for it. So that's kind of influenced me.

[17:54] Caroline Fermin: Um the other thing is dancers don't have a union. So I've learned a lot from my actor friends, and that has influenced the way I talk to to people who try to barter me low.

[18:05] Caroline Fermin: And so I will do the traditional tactics. I'll come in high. Um like maybe six times out of ten I'll get the high, the high ball offer. That was a that's a good lesson.

[18:18] Caroline Fermin: Um I think artists undervalue their work.

[18:21] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[18:21] Caroline Fermin: So I'll go in um armed with why I'm the right person for this job, and I'll get the the salary that I was asking. And if I won't, um the negotiated price is always acceptable.

[18:37] Caroline Fermin: And there have been three or four times where I've now budged and said, like I really can't do it for like less than that, and I lost a job. You know? And I think that's okay.

[18:48] Caroline Fermin: This is part of building standards and that's that flexing that muscle.

[18:54] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[18:55] Caroline Fermin: And then you had those hours in your month to find something that would pay your bills. And yeah, they they always fill in. Even if it's with babysitting, you know.

[19:04] Caroline Fermin: Yeah. Um, I think the other side to that coin is holding myself to this high esteem, which sometimes feels cocky and presumptuous. And I think, you know, as a humanitarian, I don't want to imagine that I'm better than anyone.

[19:19] Caroline Fermin: But you kind of have to. It's just like an audition when you're negotiating money, um, or hours. You know, sometimes it's not negotiating money, it's negotiating the time.

[19:28] Caroline Fermin: Okay, well if that's all you can pay, then this is as much as I can work. I'm not gonna kill myself for that.

[19:35] Caroline Fermin: Um but the flip side of that is is staying humble and saying, Okay, I don't have any work right now, I'll definitely babysit. I'm babysitting on Thursday.

[19:47] Caroline Fermin: Um I just finished a really lucrative gig in a public school and then this Thursday I'll babysit all day.

[19:52] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[19:52] Caroline Fermin: Or I've mascot it, like put on a mascot tap dance on the sidewalk, you know. I've done it all.

[20:00] Leah Walsh: Yes.

[20:01] Caroline Fermin: Well you gotta fill in the gaps.

[20:03] Leah Walsh: Yeah, fill in the gaps somehow.

[20:05] Caroline Fermin: Yeah. And I think that's just hard work and I'm not afraid of that.

[20:09] Leah Walsh: And do you apply those same standards? If you're if a friend comes to you asking if you can collaborate on something or wanting do you kind of take that as like, okay, I do have I do have the extra energy that I want to make this piece with them and kind of

[20:11] Caroline Fermin: Yeah. they're not paying any they can't pay anybody they're in the same situation I am. Or do you have to kind of not let that take up your time?

[20:33] Caroline Fermin: 'Cause I know what like when I came right out of school, I was I was feeling a little high and mighty a little bit. Being like I can't take I can't do anything that doesn't pay, you know.

[20:42] Caroline Fermin: But eventually when I let that go, not f not for people who had the ability to pay me and just weren't, but to collaborate with my peers more, it really it gave me a lot of the creative outlet that I needed when I wasn't getting the the paid work.

[20:57] Caroline Fermin: That is I volunteer still. You know, I I volunteer.

[21:02] Caroline Fermin: Um and I work with my friends and that's different. And there are some friends that you know you have to set limits with, and that doesn't mean that we're not friends.

[21:12] Caroline Fermin: That means like I can't work twenty-four hours on this project with you. I love you, but save it for Saturdays.

[21:18] Caroline Fermin: Um or you know, the volunteering. I really believe in this. I don't mind. I know I'm losing sleep, I know I'm losing money doing this, but it's worth it.

[21:29] Caroline Fermin: Um so I I think it's it's a lot of work. I really liken it to setting up your own business.

[21:36] Caroline Fermin: What are your standards? What is your mission? What uh what is your demographic? What are you, you know, if I'm all about kids, then if someone presents me with this really great opportunity to help kids and they're a proven, you know, company or a proven friend or a proven co-worker that will do that, I'll take a pay cut, quote unquote.

[22:01] Caroline Fermin: Or I will put an extra overtime for you. And I think talking about it in those terms that already exist are really useful.

[22:09] Leah Walsh: Yeah, even just thinking about the word overtime.

[22:12] Caroline Fermin: Right. Because so many of us are working like two to j two full-time jobs, basically.

[22:17] Leah Walsh: To keep thinking have an artistic life.

[22:20] Caroline Fermin: Yeah, I live in Inwood, which is way on the top of Manhattan, and this dance wave thing that I really love is in Brooklyn.

[22:27] Caroline Fermin: It takes over an hour and a half often to get there. And I'm I'm often complaining, like, oh my god, I don't want to go down there.

[22:34] Caroline Fermin: And I go and I'm like totally fulfilled. And so I just said, you know, I can't really look at this like a like a job job.

[22:41] Caroline Fermin: I have to look at this as part volunteer work. Um or is something that I'm consciously have control over that I'm consciously saying yes to, and that takes off a lot of the stress.

[22:54] Caroline Fermin: Um there are other situations where I say, I'm consciously saying no to this, that is not worth it right and it's kind of just deciding your value on what you what you want to value and also how much you are how much your value is and I've just been really looking at everything in terms of cost uh you know that's gonna cost four nights of sleepless you know staying out home at night on the computer is that worth it or you know it might not be a cost in money it might be that's gonna cost this friendship a lot of stress can we handle it right now can we afford literally can we afford and a lot of this comes from this restorative justice restorative discipline work that I actually do with kids so tell me about that.

[22:54] Caroline Fermin: Yeah the more I work with kids the the more I work with myself better because we're all just kids anyway. Um I've been teaching this stuff about uh social capital right so you and I sitting here having this conversation we're building social capital which means um if you ask me for a favor uh in a few weeks I'll be more likely to say yes or vice versa because we have put money social money into a pot for instance um and that's just the way humans work.

[24:12] Caroline Fermin: If you keep drawing from this social capital by let's say you have a company and you're like sorry guys we have to stay late again sorry your paychecks aren't coming till next week sorry that 50 bucks we promised you we can't do it you're depleting this bank you're depleting people's goodwill their social capital.

[24:30] Caroline Fermin: You can put it back in in different ways. You don't have to just give people money. You can say, Look, but I brought you coffees. You know, and I'm really, oh yeah.

[24:39] Caroline Fermin: Or having a pizza night on Friday on me and it what cost you forty bucks, or I spent the time writing you a note, a handwritten note, and I sent it in the mail and I put a stamp on it, you know, social capital explosion.

[24:52] Caroline Fermin: So it's really it's not cost only in terms of money. There's this social cost to social capital cost.

[25:00] Caroline Fermin: And when I view my resources as a bank like that, it makes decisions really easy, really easy. It's like that's a great opportunity, but it would take too much from the bank. No. How do the kids receive that? That's so important. So you don't actually I don't actually teach it like that to younger kids, but the way it works with kids is you make circles, you it has nothing to do with class, you go around and you say, What are you doing for this summer? And everyone gets a chance to say and great, let's warm up, let's start class. We just spent five minutes, but we built social capital. So when I it happens really lovely, like let's say um, you know, by February, where your eyes are falling out of your head and New York City is like eating you alive with cold weather.

I walk into my class and the kids say, You look really tired, are you okay? And I say, actually no, I'm really not feeling good today. And they make my day so easy because we've built this social capital uh that we can draw from. Now if I did that every day, I would deplete the bank and they would start to resent me. But as long as I keep putting in and they keep putting in, you know, it's a really interesting way of weighing things quickly.

[26:18] Caroline Fermin: Well, and nowadays with all so much technology and everything, I feel like people can be very self-centered and not really aware or empathetic to other people. So that's so important for kids to be, even if they're not aware of it learning. And I think it's it's something I try to do with my employers and my employees and my co-workers is build take the time. It takes more energy than the outset. It does. Well, we all have those people in our lives who I can thinking of it now, like who only take. And it's ti it's tiring. There's been a few times where I've like connected with someone I hadn't seen, you know, someone was in town or whatever. And um, you know, the the whole hour long coffee date or something goes by and they don't ask you what like you realize at the end that they didn't ask you one question about yourself.

Not that you want to talk all about yourself, but it would like was only about them, and you're like, oh well maybe next time they come in town. I don't need to I don't need to carve out a time to see them because I've you don't feel like it was a mutual thing at all.

[27:27] Caroline Fermin: Yeah. And that's that like kind of that's the gift giving of art. And I do think if you there's a it's so ephemeral, isn't it? And I think people can take advantage of it, and that's where artists get used, is that we want to give yeah, we want to give gifts of either our art or of our time or of our passion, and it's hard to turn it into a commodity without losing the gift giving side of it. Um so I think you're right, it's just constantly assessing, you know, will I let go some of my standards to do this job or will I hold on to them? And I think every it's a case by case thing, and you have to spend the time doing your work to figure out your choice.

[28:17] Leah Walsh: How are you feeling about New York City these days? Are you here for the long haul?

[28:21] Caroline Fermin: I think I'm here for the long haul. Where's your family at?

[28:24] Caroline Fermin: I'm from New Orleans. That's right, that's right. And then after Hurricane Katrina, they all moved. And I'll say, like, my first year in New York was terrible. It's such a different culture. Completely different culture. New Orleans has a such a unique, like its own culture. So slow if you're not producing something for a while, no one cares. Like just have another beer. Relax. You know, and that's a wonderful culture, and I I go and visit it. It's not the right culture for me to live in, I don't think. I really am enjoying New York. I I think I found the right neighborhood for me. I go into the woods and hike a lot. Um I can get out of the city easily. Um I try to get out of the city occasionally, but this is where, especially for dance, dance is so there's not a lot of places that are happening.

[29:26] Caroline Fermin: Yeah. And so this is where I this is where I collaborate. New York is a collaboration zone, and that's like my MO. So if I wanted to start my own company, maybe I would go somewhere else. I don't know though. We just um at the Artists at Citizen conference.

[29:44] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[29:44] Caroline Fermin: We just spoke to the um ex CEO of PBS who created a slideshow for us about where all the arts funding lives in the in the United States, and a huge amount of it is in New York City. And so, you know, that's another reason. It's the competition is stiff, but you've got more chances of the resources. So I think that's also something.

[30:08] Leah Walsh: Tell me a little bit about how the conference went.

[30:10] Caroline Fermin: For you guys listening, Alejandro Rodriguez, who's been on the the show before, Dylan Moore. A lot of the folks who work with A Step are involved with this Artist A Citizen conference that was did Alejandra spearheaded originally.

[30:25] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[30:26] Caroline Fermin: Um and Caroline just participated in it. So how was it? It's always filling up filling up the the hole again, filling up the the emptiness. I always leave um having mentored and worked with young artists feeling just as mentored as they were, you know. Like, oh I learned so much. I just saw one of the fellows uh on the subway and she said, you know, I'm I'm getting back into my art, I'm signing up for classes, I started re writing again and she look looked all sparkly eyed and I returned to the gaze with like equal sparkly eyes and was like, Me too. I still looking on a solo and you know, we were like, Yay, art So it's just a big pep rally in many ways, um, for those of us involved as on the leadership side and those involved as the fellows.

[31:20] Caroline Fermin: Um And the fellows are all what is that, eighteen to twenty-five kind of age? Yeah, and they come from all over the world, um a very diverse group. It's nice to see them learn from each other, work together. It's a nice microcosm of healthy arts bargaining and negotiating and creating everything we just were talking about, you know, these they get a a nice small way to try that out. Um and they're crowded and poked and you know, teased apart and made to think by these different workshops and and speakers and I stayed in the dorms.

[32:02] Leah Walsh: That's right, you and Colin.

[32:04] Caroline Fermin: Oh my gosh giving flashbacks to college. Yes, I was like, Oh no, I can't go in here again. Um but that see there you go. There's another example of like, okay, I work during the day and then I'm gonna come here around eight o'clock at night and spend the night and they wanna talk to you, they wanna unload, they wanna ask your opinion, they're looking for mentors or they're looking for information. So and it's a special week for them, so I'm sure they don't care if they stay up to all hours of the night. So it's you know, staying up really late, chatting with them and I knew going in I said, you know, this is going to cost so much sleep and so much stress and but I'm gonna get XYZ out of it and that is so worth it to me. It's so worth it. So I just kept kind of that mindset every time I had a two AM conversation.

[32:54] Caroline Fermin: Um and I got a lot out of it. I did. You learn a lot from these guys. Um and you learn we're all all the same, asking the same questions, struggling in the same way and getting excited in the same ways. So it's very family feeling.

[33:12] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[33:13] Leah Walsh: I think it's so wonderful for them to be exposed to that. Um around like college age too, because I know a lot of the emphasis is put on competition at that age.

[33:25] Caroline Fermin: Yeah.

[33:26] Caroline Fermin: Either through like watching the voice or whatever or like getting into schools, getting the part in the school, getting all the stuff, um, be exposed earlier to that kind of social justice work and work collaborating that is this exciting thing. It's not just competition, it's a collaboration. I think it's magic. That's really great. It's very magical. There's always something magic that happens, um, and by the end you're just like, wow, that happened. So everyone has been changed.

[33:57] Leah Walsh: The few times I got to come and sit in, it was just so inspiring.

[34:00] Caroline Fermin: Yeah. What does your family make of of your life as a dancer?

[34:05] Caroline Fermin: You know, I very proud and I say it all the time, and I realize I'm very lucky. Um Is anyone else in your family artistically inclined?

[34:16] Caroline Fermin: No. I'm the I'm the Yankee. I know don't know that the literal Yankee. Um they all my family all lives in the South. Um we have very different lives and different perspectives on politics, on religion, on culture. And when I was younger that sometimes rubbed me the wrong way, or I would get fiery. As I get older I realize why bother. They're so supportive and they're my family. And they will I have a I have an aunt and uncle that send me a little money every month. It's very sweet. Very kind. I have my grandma always writing me handwritten notes. She's thinking of me, where am I traveling? Um, if I post something on Facebook, it gets shared a thousand times.

[35:14] Caroline Fermin: Um my dad, uh, he's an immigrant. He's a Dominican immigrant, so he's got the stereotypical, like hard work ethic. Um, you will succeed, you will do well. Yet I never got pushed ever by either of my parents to, you know, have a backup plan. They've they've never asked me, like, what is your backup plan? They're just like, go for it. We trust you. We believe that you'll make it happen.

[35:44] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[35:44] Caroline Fermin: And my dad would say, you know, I found these pictures of these dancers in this magazine, and I photocopied and blew them up for you so you can frame them. Oh, thank you. Weird little of support of of trying to be connected. You know, that being said, have I felt really estranged or different from them? Yes, many times. It's hard to communicate what it's the reality of it really is, too. Yes, like when I'm weeping, saying like, I'm not dancing anymore, and my mom's going, okay. You know, I'm sure you'll I'm sure you'll do something else again, and you're like, that's not the point. It's like it's deep. It's like a breakup, it's like a divorce. It's like a it's like a death. Like a big loss. And it's hard to understand that unless you've devoted your whole life to something since you were when I was nine.

[36:44] Caroline Fermin: So they're and you know, have talking, talking about your art, having someone come see a show. You're like, well, those costumes are real nice. You're like, oh my god, yeah. Did they get a chance to see much of your work after you left home?

[37:02] Caroline Fermin: They did. And they'd often be like, Cool. Like, I really want to hear more from you. Like I wanna hear, let's go deep, let's talk about art. You know, and they just either don't want to or don't understand it in that way, or um didn't like it. I think a lot of times just didn't like what I was doing and that's so hard.

[37:24] Caroline Fermin: Yeah. That's so hard. When the l when your loved ones don't like your work. Right, when they can't connect.

[37:31] Caroline Fermin: Yeah. Legitimately are like, hmm, I like what you did before that other dance company or that other show or I try to think of that this is not the same, but I try to think of that and have empathy when like my brother's telling me about this long extended car project.

[37:48] Leah Walsh: Totally.

[37:49] Caroline Fermin: Like something that he's really interested in. I'm just I just could care less. That's the same, exactly. But I try to remind myself that everybody has their thing.

[37:58] Leah Walsh: That's exactly and they might feel the same way about mine.

[38:03] Caroline Fermin: I think we get so um all involved. Oh, and our and our community is all in it and involved and so in a way, you know, it's very positive that it's kept me grounded. You know, I remember when I was growing up, you know, teenage years, ballerina, everyone was, you know, not eating well, everyone around me was calorie counting and you know, uh even in New Orleans. Oh my gosh. Very you know sketchy things in the bathroom, like not good. And I remember I'm I managed to go through that time uns relatively unscathed. You know, I had my fair share of weird thinking about, you know, my weight or my body. But a lot of it was my family and they were just so not involved with with that level of art or you know my dad would be like, well that's dumb.

I'm making you know six pounds of ribs and you're you're gonna eat it. Or I remember I I remember this clearly I think it was my dad. He said if anyone tells you to lose weight you can have them come to me. You know and I that used to pop into my head in a really positive way. So it's great having a family that aren't aren't involved in that way they kind of ground you.

[39:16] Leah Walsh: What is it like to be dating someone who's not in the arts?

[39:19] Caroline Fermin: A whole new experience. Yeah I've dated only people in the arts only people who are very good at what they do in the arts. Very successful and so on that we've always been on the same page and it's been easy to talk to them and we sh we commiserate and we celebrate together. And um I'm now dating someone who uh has his PhD in psychology. He does research psychology. So he's a research scientist and he's a teacher. And at first you know I thought this is gonna be so different and it turns out it's almost exactly the same. Basically if you have someone that's really passionate about something you have someone that's passionate about something. So in that way it's the same and and positive and and we kind of understand each other.

[40:14] Leah Walsh: Well in psychology too is closely related to the arts and to storytelling and all of that.

[40:20] Caroline Fermin: Correct. We can like mine the depths of you know, a thought or a concept for a long time. But in terms of you know, having this be a something that I struggle with uh to make a a living out of that we're on different pages, and I think it's been an eye-opening and learning experience for him, and it's been validating for me to have someone outside of the circle say, I see you, I see how hard you're working, um, and I I validate that you're really tired right now, or that I understand why you would be frustrated right now. And it kind of feels different coming from a non-artist. We feel like someone from the outside is being like, Oh, I I see that, I feel you.

[41:07] Leah Walsh: Yeah. Well, for because for artists it's always like, well, of course you're still you have to do more, you have to do more, you have to do more if you're gonna make it work.

[41:14] Caroline Fermin: Or like you're to an extreme. Yeah, or I say, you know, this is my sixth job I've worked this week, and my artist friends are like, This is my tenth. You have no perspective on it.

[41:24] Leah Walsh: Yeah, we're all in the same boat of or that person, you know, dipped me of my paycheck last week. Like, I'm waiting on money from six months ago. It's like, oh whereas he's like, Wow, I don't understand that. I have a salary and benefits and my job is respected, and um I have a union and he's like, Wow, I don't teach me, like tell me about what that's like. And it's it's been therapeutic.

[41:50] Leah Walsh: That's really great. Is there anything in like the last year or so that you've been really proud of that you want to tell me about? Like some lesson you learned or something that maybe isn't obvious but that you were really proud of.

[42:04] Caroline Fermin: What a great question, and I'm ready to answer it. Because I just did that Artist is Citizen Conference. So I was just speaking about this, and it snuck up on me this realization that I am so it's so easy to say I am a dancer. Like if someone says, you know, what do you do? I say I'm a dancer. I don't say I'm a teacher, choreographer, like trelance, like all these slashes because you know I haven't performed in two years. I'm still a dancer. And I will say that until I think I probably broke. And that is a that's something I'm really proud of. Many, many nights of crying and many dark periods of doubting that I can say I feel like I own my identity as a dancer, even though I'm not in the height of my physical career.

And the way I see myself as a dancer is I think I've been trained to be an artist. I put in a lot of time, I put in a lot of effort. I see the world in a specific way, I solve problems in a specific way, I digest the world in a specific way. Just me living in the world the way that I do makes me an artist, makes me a dancer. And I really own, like I really believe that.

[43:31] Leah Walsh: Well, that makes me so happy.

[43:33] Caroline Fermin: Yeah. And I don't have to be on stage, and I don't have to be with the establishment, and I don't have to be um, you know, at the big theater, and I can be in my room, and I am I am a fucking artist. Excuse me.

[43:51] Leah Walsh: No, that is fantastic.

[43:53] Caroline Fermin: Yeah. I'm very inspired by that.

[43:58] Leah Walsh: Good. I'm so glad you told me about that. Is there any just to come back to the dark side, like if you're having a day where you're really going to that place you're feeling uninspired, are there any like concrete things that you turn to again and again, like a book or a place or a thing you do?

[44:14] Caroline Fermin: Yes. I usually have like a list of things that I do.

[44:22] Leah Walsh: Perfect.

[44:23] Caroline Fermin: Um I I always go for a hike, like get into the nature. That's also been scientifically proven to make everyone feel better. Yeah. It's just like go do that. Sometimes a run, like exercise. Um I really, really love the book Women Who Run with the Wolves.

[44:42] Leah Walsh: Um I need to get this book.

[44:45] Caroline Fermin: It was recommended to me by my good friend Shroy Ogilby and Laura Careless, two lovely dancer women who I went to school with. And she approaches different myths from a female perspective, from a positive feminist perspective. And that's where I get kind of this idea of the dark side being compost into death, or that death is a positive thing. Um it's too much information to go into. But it's basically talking about how everything like the cyclical, how cyclical nature is often feared because you have to go down into the darkness to come back up. And so I call that my Bible. Like that book is my Bible, it's all taped up, it's pages are falling out, the stories are in the wrong thing. But I all I have to do is read two pages, and I'm like, yes.

Um, if those things don't work, always a call to a fellow artist friend, you know, always reach out. I I feel like there have been times where I've been dangerously low. And you know, you think I don't want to bother anyone anymore with this darkness, this sadness that they they've gotta be sick of hearing about this. And maybe they are, but if they're your friend, then they're in the community, they get it, and it's always worth reaching out, and so I'll just say, like, I really need to talk to somebody right now. And I've never had anyone turn that down.

[46:18] Caroline Fermin: Uh, and then last but not least, I don't know if you've seen anything recently. I usually ask if you have anything to recommend or friends friends' shows or how about my second creators performing in the auditorium?

[46:29] Leah Walsh: Oh, I really haven't or a movie or anything.

[46:33] Caroline Fermin: Oh man. But it's okay if you don't. What have I been doing? I really haven't seen a lot recently. But the something that's really interesting to me is um this pursuit of pleasure in your body and all it comes from this Israeli style of movement, officially called Gaga, is a style. You know, they did a workshop on that. I went back to Julia, they had like a drama alumni day where the teachers taught classes for alums, and somebody came in and did with a few dance alums were there and the drama alums and did a gaga workshop. She had long hair. She was very magical. She yeah, she It was great. I loved it. And actors love it. Um, I've been working a lot with actors in that style of movement. But I recently was speaking to this boy at the Artist Sys Citizen Conference who lived in Morocco and another guy who was from Egypt, and they were both like, that sounds really familiar.

That sounds like the Sufi style of dance. And I immediately researched it and we got really excited. We were jiving off of each other, and it turns out a lot of this now codified style, and I don't know if this is where the originator got his information. Oh I'd not hear and who's this Israeli guy. But it's strikingly similar to this like Sufi trance dancing. And now I'm like super excited and I want to dig into it and I recommend to everyone to look into this. It's a really pleasurable way of moving, and that you actually can kind of um move through either physical blocks through you know shaking loose your bones and your muscles or emotional blocks by shaking through or sliding through um you know the parts in your body where you're like no, no, or the parts in your mind where you're like no. I call it like the three-year-old that's just like throwing a tantrum. You can kind of move past that with this pleasurable dance.

[48:42] Leah Walsh: Yeah. So that's something that I'm looking into and researching at the moment. Do you teach any like open classes anywhere that if people wanted to come take your class?

[48:53] Caroline Fermin: I'm not teaching open classes yet, but that is something I really am trying to call.

[48:58] Leah Walsh: Well, if you ever do, tell me and I'll be okay.

[49:00] Caroline Fermin: I'll let everyone who listens to the podcast know.

[49:03] Leah Walsh: Yeah. Well, thank you so much. This is great. I really appreciate it.

[49:20] Leah Walsh: Thank you for listening to the Compass Podcast. I'm Leah Walsh. More episodes are coming soon. Please look for us on Facebook in iTunes. I'd like to thank the following people for their generosity. The Compass Cover Art is by Kim Miller, music by Brendan Speth, audio assistance from Nick Choxie, and a special thanks to Frankie J. Alvarez. See you next time.