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[0:00] Justin Mock: You're listening to The Ensemblist, the only podcast that shows you Broadway from the inside out. I'm Justin Mock.

[0:14] Justin Mock: Hey, listeners. I'm Justin, and this is Choreographers Making Moves, a new mini-series highlighting female choreographers who are making a difference and making a name for themselves in the business. For our first episode, I spoke to someone who got her start working for Debbie Allen and has grown into a Helen Hayes-nominated choreographer herself. She's an educator, filmmaker, and most recently launched Best 8BK, an organization creating dynamic, timely, and socially conscious theatrical works for digital media: the outstanding Rachel Dolan. We spoke about how she worked her way to the top, the magic of putting yourself out there, and how to be a brilliant disruptor. All right, listeners. Enjoy my conversation with Rachel Dolan.

[0:58] Justin Mock: Well, Rachel, you're our first choreographer on our Choreographer Spotlight series, and I can't be more glad that it's you.

[1:07] Rachel Dolan: Well, thank you for having me. I really, really appreciate being here. And I'm glad to be the first on this series. And I'm really passionate about women in the arts, specifically, and women working as choreographers. So when you reached out, I was like, this is absolutely aligning with all the things that are important to me and important in our industry right now.

[1:27] Justin Mock: Before you were choreographing, you were obviously a performer. You auditioned and got hired for the shows Dreams and Pearl at the Kennedy Center. And you got to work with Debbie Allen. So I would love to kind of hear if you have any specific memories from that process.

[1:42] Rachel Dolan: Yeah, so I grew up in the Washington, D.C. area. I was a kid in Northern Virginia. And my mom was always a really great advocate for my education and what she knew to be true, which is I wanted to be a professional performer. So she would check the newspaper, like Washington Post, just flip through and look for auditions all the time. And two years prior, Debbie Allen had been in D.C. and she did a production of a show called Brothers of the Night that ended up being really massively popular. And it gained a lot of recognition. Two years later, in the year 2000, she was coming back to do another show. And these shows featured kids from D.C. and from the D.C. area on stage. And it was my first professional job I ever had. But my mom brought me to Duke Ellington High School in D.C. And it's like being in the hallways of LaGuardia High School. It's like being on Fame, which is what Debbie is known for. Such a cool school.

[2:41] Rachel Dolan: Yeah. I just really didn't know what I was in, what I was up for, like what was happening. I went into the audition and we danced a lot. And then we just kept getting like dwindled down. We got dwindled down and dwindled down and dwindled down. And I was there with a couple of girls that I danced with. Soon it was like just me in the room with the other people that were being kept. And I remember it got down to a small group of us and Debbie sat us all down. I think at the time I probably called her Miss Allen. So I'll go back to that because I know she prefers that. But Miss Allen sat us all down and started talking about like, what are your dreams? Who are your heroes? And I vividly remember raising my hand and I was like, Mother Teresa is a hero.

And people are raising their hand saying, Martin Luther King Jr., all of these things. And then that was sort of the conversation. And she's like, you'll hear more from us. And I walked out the doors and I was like, I think I just got the job. But I was like 14 years old. I had no idea. And I'm like, going down the hall, my mom comes running at me. She's all the other moms have left. It's just my mom there, you know, that came with us with our dance studio. And she was like, I think you got it. She's gave me this big hug. Sure enough, I booked the show. It was so thrilling. I mean, I was never the best technical dancer at my studio, but I just loved to perform so much. And it always like shown through me my passion and my love for performing.

And it was one of those indicating moments that like you're doing the right thing. So that was like the memory of getting the job. And then being part of that, I still have friends that I'm like, oh, those are from the Debbie Allen days, those people. So super cool.

[4:16] Justin Mock: It's nice to hear from you that you didn't identify as the most technical dancer, but your passion for it is what pushed you through because a lot of times we drill the technique, but we kind of train the passion out of dancers sometimes as educators.

[4:30] Rachel Dolan: I think that technique is important. It is we all need to know those things. And I'm an educator. And I tell my students that all the time is everyone in the room needs to be able to do these certain things. But the thing that gets you the job is something that is beyond that. I, as a choreographer, when I'm looking at a room of dancers or a room of performers, I'm also not looking like who's got the batma to their face, I'm looking for who is the part. It's like when our soul and our technical dancer are totally unified, that we really start to be noticed and be seen as performers. And sometimes we have to sort of re-educate that in young performers for sure. It's like bringing back, like you said, that love of dance because we can sort of train it out of people when we obsess about how high is the passe, you know?

[5:14] Justin Mock: Yes.

[5:17] Rachel Dolan: And we want it high. I love a high passe, but I have never had extension. I'm a relatively short dancer. I don't have like a typical Broadway body. So there's a lot of things that like I always was just sort of not in that category of like the rockette physique or the rockette skill, but I like loved dancing so much. And so I got noticed when I was younger because of it. I think it's the most important thing. You better love it. You better wake up in the morning and love it because it's, yeah, it's going to knock you down over and over and over again.

[5:49] Justin Mock: Do you feel like seeing Debbie Allen as a leader in the room gave you the interest in choreographing? Had that been there before you were a teenager? When did the choreography bug bite you?

[6:00] Rachel Dolan: Yeah, that's a great question. I started directing really relevant and incredible productions in my basement with my sister and brother and friends around six years old. Like I have been bossing people, I'm the youngest of three, I've been bossing people around since I like.

[6:18] Justin Mock: That's amazing.

[6:18] Rachel Dolan: Since I showed up. It's so funny. We, my sister and I would like reenact movies. So League of Their Own was a big moment for me. And there's a picture of me with like a baseball glove and I've got like pigtails. And I remember someone being like, oh, you played softball. And I was like, no, I was playing Kit in a League of Their Own, the musical that I directed and choreographed in my basement in that moment. I was not playing a sport. I was dancing a sport. Working with Miss Allen was incredible. I love how much she's idolized in the dance community. Now, when I was growing up, people didn't really know her as well. Like our parents did because she was so famous from being on Fame. And, you know, Felicia Rashad is so famous.

But now I feel there's a resurgence. And I'm seeing a lot of people like, like, look at Debbie Allen out here teaching these dancers. She is the scariest person I've ever been in a room with. But, you know, we were kids. I was 14. And I'm in this dance studio. And she works in such an organic way. She just sort of stands up and she just starts dancing. And you're just everyone's like, what are we doing? And you just stand up and you start dancing with her. And then she'll kind of repeat the next part. And then she'll go back and do it again. And you're just in this process of her creativity. And I think that taught me a lot about how to choreograph because I was watching Debbie Allen choreograph on us as dancers and create this show in this world on us as dancers.

She didn't come in with the steps always perfectly prepared. She really worked with what's in the room. And I think it's what she does so incredibly well. She recognizes talent and then she takes that person and she lifts them up and supports them on a journey towards dance because of her experience of being a Black woman in this world and being a Black woman in the ballet world specifically where she was told no a lot. And so her mission is to say yes to people who would maybe usually have no said to them and to give them the skills to be successful in the body and the person that they are. Watching that taught me a lot. The biggest takeaway from working with her and on those two shows was I was one of very few white people in the room.

And so I grew up in the early 2000s dancing professionally with Debbie Allen and being in a room of mostly Brown and Black people. And I'm so grateful for that because I never had to learn that. And I think a lot of our industry is having to learn that now. The thing I've learned so much from her and woke up my choreographer in me was like, we have an opportunity to shift the conversation in that role. And that's what Debbie has been doing is what Miss Allen has been doing her whole life. She's been shifting the conversation around dance. You get to do that when you get some power and as choreographer, you have some power, which is so cool.

[9:12] Justin Mock: Oh, absolutely. Miss Allen, obviously a mentor and a visible female figure for you. I guess you have any memories specifically from the first moment you found yourself stepping into that role as the leader?

[9:24] Rachel Dolan: Yeah, totally. I mean, so along with being in Dreams and Pearl, which happened like two years apart from each other, I spent two summers flying out to California and dancing at the Debbie Allen Dance Academy. And it was right when she opened the studio. I was one of the first groups of students that danced at Dada for a summer intensive. The first year that I went out there, like it was such a small thing. Like she picked me up from the airport.

[9:52] Justin Mock: That's amazing.

[9:52] Rachel Dolan: She's such a mom to her students. But the next year when I studied there, I couldn't stay for the full duration of the program because I was going home to teach dance. And I remember having a conversation with her and she was like, yeah, you need to leave early and go teach. That's your vocation. You're a leader. That's the thing that you do. And that was a really important part of my process. I started teaching dance when I was 16. I know a lot of dance studios out all over the country have young people teaching classes, but I like taught, I taught, I choreographed, I coached my students. I did solos. I did it all starting at 16 years old because that leadership and that desire to create and to be sort of an educator and a disruptor was always in me and always there.

And I got that a lot from being around really strong teachers, including Miss Allen and then including my dance teacher growing up, Raynor, who really encouraged me to like move down that path and gave me opportunities to choreograph and do things that maybe a 16 or 17-year-old wouldn't always have the opportunity to do. The desire to be on this side of the table happened for me really, really young. I was auditioning for colleges for dance programs and about midway through all my auditions, I had a conversation with my mom and I was like, I don't feel like these programs speak to me. I don't want to be a modern dancer. And, you know, at the time there wasn't as much out there for commercial dancing and for Broadway style dancing for dance programs.

And I wasn't a musical theater kid. I did musical theater. I sang, but that wasn't my point of view either. I wanted a more rigorous dance program. And so my mom and I came to the decision that I would go to school for something else and be in New York and dance while I'm here because I knew I didn't want to go down that road. I wanted to teach and I wanted to choreograph. And so I felt the best way to do that was like at 18 years old, showing up at Steps on Broadway and being like, I'm here to be a student. In 2003, it was a really different time at the studios too. Like you went and there was a piece of paper that had the schedule on it. And that's how you found out what classes were happening that day.

There was no signing up online. There was no Instagram to find your favorite teacher. You just showed up and you found the teachers that you liked and then you forged relationships and like trust with them and go over and over again, over and over again until they know your name. And I think like at a young age, I was like, that's what I want to do. I want to be in that place where I have those classes and I have those students and I'm making up these dance steps.

[12:17] Justin Mock: Good for you. Cause I know a lot of people wouldn't have been as brave at 18 to show up to New York.

[12:22] Rachel Dolan: Right. Like it's like brave and stupid. You know, I like what I would do to go back and have the level of ignorance I had when I was 18 or even 25 when I was like breaking into the industry as a choreographer, like I knew nothing. I wish I knew nothing now. It's a, it's a gift. Truly, truly.

[12:41] Justin Mock: Okay. So I guess, skipping ahead, if that's okay, to 25, you're starting to break into the industry. What is that like? Are there a lot of female contemporaries in that place with you trying to make it happen? Were you warmly accepted? Were you climbing uphill to, to get acknowledged? Kind of what was that like?

[12:57] Rachel Dolan: Again, like ignorance is bliss. I, um, at around like 25 or 26 was like, I want to be doing this. I want to be choreographing. So I was teaching full time for my dance teacher. It was sort of like apprenticing with her. And I just, I was like, I'm leaving this job and I don't have a plan. And I believe I posted something on Facebook that was like, I'm looking for choreography opportunities. If anyone has anything, a high school production and middle school production, let me know. And a friend I grew up with as a dancer, Abby reached out to me and she goes, Hey, I do a lot of work with this theater. It's called Keegan theaters in DC. And I know that they're looking for a choreographer for a production of cabaret and they're looking for someone who's got some Fosse knowledge.

And I was like, well, that's me. So, uh, she submitted me for this job. I've come to find out that it's like someone who's now a really good friend of mine who left that job because he booked, he booked a show as a dancer at arena stage. And so he had to leave choreographing this production. And I'm always like, Kurt.

[13:56] Rachel Dolan: Thank you so much for quitting that job. I used to joke a lot in DC that I was like the cleaner upper. Like I would always get these last-minute jobs from people who had to drop it because a lot of people, you know, sort of double as performers and as choreographers in DC. I was always getting people scraps and I was like, I'm here for the scraps. I went in to interview for this job as a choreographer for Cabaret. I had never choreographed a musical before. I had never, I hadn't been on stage professionally since the Debbie Allen days. I was a dance teacher. I made my resume very convincing. The year previously, I had choreographed a show at my high school that I went to. I choreographed my high school musical.

I choreographed things while I was in college as part of like a student-run theater group, but I've never like really done this and I got the job. Either they were desperate or they thought it was great, but I got it and I knew nothing and I choreographed this show the way, only way I knew how, which is how Miss Allen does and I just walked in. I did no pre-pro. I did no prep. I just showed up and choreographed on these dancers. If I did that today, I would have a full panic attack of like not being prepared, but I just like went in and I was like making it up as I went along and they were like, this is wild. I've never seen anything like this and I was like, I don't know. It's like this is how I've seen it done before. It went really well, like the show went really well. The run of it was completely sold out and a year later, I was nominated for a Helen Hayes Award and like...

[15:30] Justin Mock: That's amazing.

[15:31] Rachel Dolan: And I was like not, I was nominated for an award against like Maurice Hines and like Josh Rhodes and all these people who and years prior, an award that Debbie Allen was nominated for and I was like, what in the world? This little tiny theater company got recognized for this show we did. I started getting phone calls. I started getting phone calls to do work. Prior to that, I didn't. Like after doing the show, I just sort of like twiddling my thumbs and during that time, I met someone named Michael Bobbitt, who was the artistic director of Adventure Theater, which is a children's company and he had just taken on a program that's educating kids and so he had hired me to become a teacher and during that time, I was creating some other mentorship relationships and having mentors is the most important part of this industry, period and stop.

My first mentor is my teacher Raynor. My second would be like Debbie Allen and then back to Raynor and then Michael Bobbitt and Dennis Jones. Like you have to have mentors. You have to have people who want you to do better and want to coach you into doing better.

[16:36] Justin Mock: You're an associate with Dennis Jones.

[16:36] Rachel Dolan: Yeah.

[16:36] Justin Mock: How did that come to be? I would love to hear a little bit about that.

[16:40] Rachel Dolan: It's another great story. You know, I really like, there's no direct path to what we do. There's no class that's taught in a college, like how to become a choreographer, how to network. We learn it as we go. So Dennis was coming to DC to choreograph a production of Crazy for You at Signature Theater and they're like, we want you to come in and audition because like DC knows I'm a tap dancer. So I went to the audition. It was a really small call. I booked it by the end of it. Like we danced tap, we did some jazz, we sang, we came back and danced again. And I got a phone call about an hour after I left the theater. During that time, I was also interviewing to choreograph a production at Olney Theater.

I was like in the end interviews for Annie. I hadn't heard back yet that I got it. During that audition, I like left the room at one point to like have a break. I checked my email and I had gotten my official offer for Annie. They were both the holiday slots for that season. So I talked to numerous people and I was like, is there any way that I can do, I can both choreograph at Olney and perform in Crazy for You? And I was like, there's just no physical way that I can be doing two rehearsal processes at the same time. So I had to turn down the job at Signature. I really loved what Dennis did. I loved who he was. I sent him a message on Facebook Messenger and I was like, hey, Dennis Jones. Again, ignorance is bliss.

I was not in New York. So I didn't have this grasp of who Dennis is. Like Dennis is a big freaking deal. And like he has, you know, he's been nominated for Tony Awards. He's been in the industry since the day he was freaking born. I just sent him a message on Facebook Messenger. I was like, hey, my name is Rachel. I was at the Crazy for You audition. I couldn't take the job, unfortunately, because I just booked a gig choreographing at Olney Theater. I loved working with you in the auditions. And if you are going to be doing any pre-production while you're in DC, let me know. And he sent back a message. He was like, hey, I actually am. He's like, I don't have time to do pre-pro in New York before I get to DC.

So I'm going to sort of be doing pre-pro as I go in the evenings and I'd love to have you. And so I would literally go to rehearsal at Olney during the day. Sometimes go teach like a bar class or yoga class or whatever and like go to Signature Theater from like 8 p.m. to 11 p.m. and do pre-pro with Dennis for Crazy for You. That relationship just sort of blossomed from there. Again, I keep it really silly and fun in the room. And I think that sometimes big people get dancers around them who are like really serious and like there's this like energy of like neediness. And I just am like, okay, like I'll help you come up with some tap steps. Like, absolutely. So when that show opened, I went to opening night.

I was like the guest of the director of that show. That was the beginning of my relationship with Dennis. And then about a year later, he was coming back down to DC. I hadn't moved yet. He was doing auditions for a show and he was like, can you learn this combo and teach it for the auditions? And I was like, no problem because they didn't have it in the budget to bring someone down from New York with him. And I did that and he was like, that was amazing. You're incredible. And I texted him back. I said, hey, I'm moving to New York in a couple months. He's like, that's amazing. So I moved to New York in April of 2018. Mid-April, I was in the room for Tootsie's pre-Broadway workshop for their lab.

They must have had a dancer drop again, like here picking up scraps. And I texted Dennis and I was like, hey, I'm in New York now. He was like, cool. Like, are you around for the next two weeks? And I was like, yeah, I'm like, I moved to New York. I'm looking for a job. I'm like interviewing at Lululemon right now. And he was like, cool. I might have something for you. I'll be in touch. And like two days later, I got an email from the stage manager from Tootsie. And it was like, hey, this is your official offer for the Broadway lab of Tootsie. We'll be rehearsing for the next two weeks. This is what your contract is. I walked in that day. I became a member of Equity. And like, first week in New York.

And everybody was like, only you. And I was like, I know. And I'm not a performer. So I have like an Equity card that just like sits and collects dust on a shelf somewhere that I like owe dues to. Again, ignorance is bliss. And I, like, I'm in the room. And Carly Bettyall's in the room. She was in the original production of Hamilton. Barry, who is Dennis' associate for everything. Charlie Williams. There's all these people in the room that are like now looking back. I'm like, holy crap. You have the most Broadway. Leslie Fleschner. I've never been around so many Broadway credits in my life. I was like going home and Googling people. And I was like, wow, why am I in this room? Why am I in this room? Literally your first week in the city.

[21:28] Rachel Dolan: Literally my first week. And then ever since then, I really legitimately have done pre-production with Dennis for every single show that he has done since I moved here. I think minus maybe one because I was working on stuff. Even when I was doing cruise ship things and I was traveling a lot, when I would come back, I would just always shoot him a text. Be like, what are you working on right now? And go and spend time with him. I was slated to be his associate choreographer for a national tour that was going to be doing auditions about one year ago today. And obviously that was canceled. And that was going to be my first sort of like associate gig with him. Everyone that he surrounds himself with is so kind and so caring and so generous.

And so is Dennis. And like you don't find those types of relationships often. And I'm so grateful for it all the time. You know, I thank my lucky stars for knowing him. We are only as good as the people that we surround ourselves with, you know? And I think that that comes back over and over again. When you see who's in people's camps, you're like, oh, that's what kind of person you are. And that's Dennis. Gosh, I'm grateful for him. I hope he's listening to this.

[22:33] Justin Mock: He won't. He like doesn't do like internet stuff that much.

[22:36] Rachel Dolan: Oh, okay. You can email it to him.

[22:38] Justin Mock: I will. I send him stuff all the time. I'm like, what do you think of this? But yeah, what a guy. Really, truly, deeply. Like such a wonderful soul and so talented. What a first weekend to town.

[22:48] Rachel Dolan: Yeah, like as the kids say, shoot your shot. You got to put yourself out there. I would love to open this can of worms of what it is like to identify as a woman and also be a leader in our business. I wonder if you have felt supported by your team behind the table and also like by your cast. I wonder if you've had microaggressions from male identifying members of the cast or female identifying members of the cast. Maybe you haven't had this experience, but I would love to see if there are any experiences you have had that could be nuggets of wisdom for our listeners that they could be like, oh, wow, I have done that as well. I guess I do have a bias that I'm not aware of in regards to gender.

[23:32] Justin Mock: Yeah, totally.

[23:33] Rachel Dolan: This is a sticky question, and if you meet a woman who has not experienced microaggressions or levels of abuse, emotional or sexual or whatever it may be, in working in this industry, I would love to speak to them because I definitely have experienced a lot of levels of just like inappropriate or not acceptable behavior from male counterparts, straight, gay, you name it. Like it comes from all places. I have been thoughtful around this for a long time. This has been a topic of conversation for me with my loved ones and my students for a really long time. Like at least since 2016, this has been something I feel I've been having a lot of conversations around. I have am very, very often and have very often been the only woman on a creative team, minus maybe like the wardrobe or wig supervisor.

Certainly at bigger theaters, at smaller theaters, there tends to be some more women that work in the process. I also am typically in a room with all white people, except when I've worked with Michael Bobbitt, who was my mentor for many, many years in D.C., and I still consider him a mentor. He was an advocate for equity across the board and has been for a really long time. There's a couple of really strong voices in D.C. who have made black and brown people way more represented in theater there than I see in any other place in the country, maybe minus like Chicago. People like Kevin McAllister and Michael Bobbitt, who just really have like said, if you're going to have me on board for this project, I want 50% of the cast to be non-white.

And that's amazing. So I've seen some diversity in some of the rooms that I've been in because of people like them. But many of times I have seen not diversity. I would say as a woman, especially coming into this industry young, I am always trying to validate myself. I'm always trying to make myself seem like I'm better. You have to be better. And Michael always has said that. It's like you have to show up in the room and you need better than everybody else. You just have to. It's unfair. But the expectations of you as a woman are the expectations of you as a black indigenous person of color. Like if that's who he's talking to, because I've heard him coaching black actors in this conversation is like the expectation of you in the room is that you were going to fail or not do as well as everybody else.

So you need to do better. I have definitely been gaslit. I've definitely been manipulated to think that I'm not good enough. I have been overpowered in the room. I recall a time where I was on a phone call with a director regarding casting and I thought I was only on the phone with the director as we were talking about some of the actors we saw for a particular role. And I spoke very candidly about and nothing that I wouldn't say to the actors about my desire to hire a particular actor over another because I thought that that actor had a stronger skill set. The theater ultimately chose to go with an actor who was a name and was well known and I don't think you know, I said anything. I wouldn't say again to these actors, but I felt the other actor that was up for the role was a better fit.

But the director thought that he did not read Latino enough for the particular role that they were casting. Even though this actor is 100% Mexican. I spoke that I said, I think that this guy is really great. Like his audition was incredible. I would love to work with him. I'd love to have him as a dancer in the room. This other fella like I know that he comes from this background and hopefully, you know can increase ticket sales. I get that but I didn't feel that his audition was, you know worthy of getting the role. After I spoke that I found out that I was on a conference call with the artistic director of the theater and a whole other bunch of people who had already made the decision to cast the well-known star in the show.

That was just the beginning of my experience in that particular job of like finding out information after. I think the biggest thing that happens in theater is there's a lot of backroom conversations that happen without you in them and I have found specifically as a choreographer and as a woman that those conversations always are happening without me in the room and then I'll have some sort of conversation with someone that I've not heard before. That is really challenging. You know I've also been told that I was hired because I was.

[27:53] Rachel Dolan: I have had a group of men in a rehearsal room. We were in the green room in a theater. At the time, I was really thin. I was going through some really difficult things personally and had lost a lot of weight. And I was sort of like squeezing past the director, and he criticized the size of my breasts as being so small, and I could just so easily slip by. And like, there's things like that, and that came from someone who's gay, that have happened that I'm like, this would never happen to a man in these scenarios. So I would say it's like more an umbrella of doubt. People doubt that you're capable of the thing, even when you're successful at it. And then if there's any level of something that doesn't work or isn't successful, that I've felt that I've been blamed for it before.

Or, you know, this like tiptoeing around sensitivity and like, I'm a tough cookie. I've learned to be tough in this industry. And because of that, I have also been told in professional environments that I am unapproachable. I'm like, this is a word only reserved for women. I was like, I'm strong-willed. And I'm going to stand up for what I believe is right. And I'm going to do a good job. But if you feel that I am unapproachable, that feels like something that's on you. You know what I mean? It's like checking in with yourself of like, why you can't come and have a conversation with someone you hired about the work we do. And I will say it until I'm blue in the face. It's not personal, right?

It's the business that we do. My choreography. Sure, it's an extension of me. But it's not me. I'm not my choreography. If you don't like my choreography for a song in the show, please tell me what you would like for it to become and I will work my hardest to create that for you. But I can't do that if you don't tell me what you want. And I am not going to take it personal when you tell me that you need to cut something, but you do need to tell me when those things are coming up. I see. It's a lot of double standards, you know, for men and for women in the industry. And I really have had difficult times. I've had very isolated times when I'm working on shows where I feel like I'm not part of the boys' club.

And I'm sort of on my own. And I'm not there. There again, I'm not part of those backroom conversations that they're having, because I'm not invited to or involved in them. I'm just showing up and doing my job as a choreographer. All people who I really consider mentors or leaders or guiders or guidance in this industry have gone from being choreographers to being choreographers slash directors, and all of them have shared it's for this very reason that as choreographers we're constantly sort of like swept under the rug or blamed for things. Michael and another woman I really consider as a great teacher to me, Kelly, Dan, Bob, both said to me, Oh, I became a director because I was tired of doing my job and the director's job in a musical.

And you're laughing because you've probably been in a rehearsal process where you've had that experience. It's like some directors are like, Oh, music is playing. I'm not part of this. And I'm like, you know, that staging a song is the same as staging a scene, right? Like, so I'll give them the dance steps. But if you want me to stage the entire musical, like, I would like to then be wearing the director hat. So despite not having any official director credits, in some of these theaters, I certainly have directed a number of productions that we've seen on stage, you know, because it's what we do is like, we go, we just clean up, especially as women, it's like, we just make it work, we fix it.

And without bothering anybody around us, you know? Well, yeah. Well, and theater is such a collaborative art form, right? It's like, somebody has to do it. And if the director's like, Well, I can't do it, then right, it's gonna get a lot of the time. Do you feel like you could see yourself trending towards the choreographer director track? Is that something that interests you creatively?

[31:39] Rachel Dolan: I, I do. I, um, that was a big thing. Like, I left DC for a lot of reasons, for personal reasons, for professional reasons, I just was like, really seeking growth beyond the DC market, when I was leaving was really on the cusp of like, turning the corner to do directing and choreographing. And I wanted to be in New York and be working with bigger shows and bigger productions and sort of growing my knowledge and my education and my information. So I, I have always thought that that's the path I want to go, you know, things were moving this way, and then COVID happened. And so right now, I'm directing in video format. So I'm stepping into it in some capacity. But yes, I do envision that for myself.

I feel very intimidated by it. Because now I've learned so much. I'm like, Oh, I'm gonna walk into a room and people are gonna be like, she doesn't know what she's doing. That I don't have the bliss anymore of the ignorance part. So like 10 years ago, if you would have told me to walk into a room and direct, I would have been like, absolutely. Somebody get me a hat. Let's go. Exactly. Where's my black Susan Stroman hat? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, that's amazing. Hey, I would love to talk about Best 8 BK because it feels like that's kind of an extension of this pivot that you've made during COVID. So how did that come to be?

[33:01] Rachel Dolan: Again, just you know, here I am making my way through the world without a plan. I am not. I am a fly by the seat of my pants. I'm a I'm a pretty like quick decision kind of person. So COVID happened and I was like, man, I don't think that live theater is I don't think it's coming back when we think it's coming back. I don't think it's coming back the way it used to be through Black Lives Matter and all this stuff. Like a lot of me fell out of love with the theater industry as it is right now. And I think it is it is primed and prepped for a renaissance to happen. And I'm really excited for that. But I just knew I really wanted to make videos dance videos. I also knew that I was seeing a lot of videos being produced by incredible choreographers and dancers in New York right now.

It's a big trend that's happening. But I was noticing it was like a lot of the same faces and I'm I'm guilty of this before of like having all white dancers and something or having all dancers I've worked with before and something and I was like, Okay, I want to really make an effort to do this thing. So part of Black Lives Matter that is really important to us is the unlearning and the accountability is like I take accountability Rachel Dolan as a choreographer and a director as uplifting people that look like me and are like me. And now I am choosing to uplift people who are underrepresented or who we consider intersectional artists, myself as a woman being one of those intersectional artists.

And so Best Eight came from this desire to make dance film and provide opportunities for underrepresented people to make things. So I sought out a fiscal sponsorship from New York Foundation for the Arts that I got this year and Best Eight was was born and it is very much an infant. It's a little tiny baby. I've been sort of finding my way and I describe Best Eight now as an incubator for theatrical works on digital media, featuring intersectional artists in all aspects of production. And I mean all aspects of production, my videographers, my editors, everybody who's working on this, I can check off a box that they are either a woman and or a black indigenous person of color, or genderqueer or gender nonconforming.

Like these are really important things for me is that I am highlighting people and talent that's out there and really pushing this forward because there's been such a lack of women and BIPOC people represented in theater and in film in these higher up positions. I mean the Oscar nominations just came out and for the first time in history there's two women nominated in the same year for Best Director. It took way too long to get to that, you know. So that's what Best Eight is up to. You know most recently I commissioned a new recording of a cover of a song that I love. I had seven intersectional musicians record it. We recorded it at the end of February and that song will be used for my next film which we'll be shooting in April.

So I'm hoping to like push into like longer film or digital media narratives like musical theater sort of on screen in smaller short places. So just like pushing a little past the dance film again because we're really inundated with that type of material right now which is exciting because dancers are out there and we're making stuff and I love that about us. I love that COVID hit and everyone was like well I've got a camera so let me keep making dance and I know you've made films and it's like that type of thing is like what's fueling us, you know. It's like giving us the energy to keep moving forward. With that said I'm also wanting to like really put Best Eight somewhere new and who knows what it will become.

You know I have many thoughts and ambitions for what's possible but I really believe in letting things form as they form themselves rather than saying in five years time we will have accomplished this. Like let's see where we are in six months and go from there.

[37:10] Justin Mock: Cool, very cool. I'm not sure how long you've been in New York but in your time in New York are there any things you know now that you wish you would have known when you showed up or things you wish you would have known maybe 10 years ago that you feel like would have really helped you at that time?

[37:29] Rachel Dolan: Yeah I mean I feel like the theme of this whole conversation has been ignorance is bliss. I think the thing I wish I knew was it's okay to ask questions and it's okay to not know the answer. Like to not have a solution and to spend time finding the solution. I've always felt this sense of urgency like I've got to come in with all of the information. I think a big part of that is is being a woman in this industry is like it's like being a woman in life here. It's like you just got to come in and be able to handle everything that's put in front of you and not bat an eye and not you know mess up a lipstick. I've learned so much from being especially with like my male counterparts it's like really seeing that a process is a good thing and that it's okay to take time figuring out until you get it right and I learned that from Dennis like day one.

He will work on a step and work on a step and work on a step and work on a song until it's exactly how he envisioned it to be and then keep working on it until it's right and I think that allowing that process in I would have loved to know that five years ago specifically in a particular memory I have of working with a theater it's like just it's okay to to be in the process you don't have to have all the answers.

[38:45] Justin Mock: That's beautiful thank you.

[38:47] Rachel Dolan: Yeah for sure. Yeah as part of the structure for the podcast series I would love to wrap up each interview with some other choreographers who identify as female that are inspirational to you.

[38:56] Rachel Dolan: Yeah the first is that I love Liz Puccini. She and I only met just over a year ago sort of through Dennis. We ironically enough grew up about 10 minutes away from each other in northern Virginia. I think that Liz represents what it means to be an educator in a really incredible way. Watching her teach classes virtually is watching a master class. She really truly sees everybody in a zoom room and she's like that in person as well and like I think that when you look at someone who's just so good at what they do as an associate choreographer she's it. And Carla Garcia I like similarly like we grew up in the same area and Carla is another Debbie Allen dancer. We never worked directly at the same time with Miss Allen but I just have sort of like a an artist crush on Carla.

I don't know her personally now like I think we just sort of similarly float in groups. I've never called her texted her or anything but I love her work. I think that Carla's musicality is like something that we should all study because no one hears every beep and bop and horn and sound in a song more than her. And she also just represents like women of color in a powerful strong way and has had a really inspiring and successful career working as a swing on Hamilton but also is an incredible teacher and I know is really knocking on the door of bigger choreography projects really rapidly right now. And what I love about both Liz and Carla is that they they're young and they're eager and they're excited and they want to be making shifts. I think that those are the kind of people that are really thrilling to look at and to aspire to be like.

[41:09] Justin Mock: If you'd like to learn more about Rachel, head over to her website rachelleedolan.com or best8bk on Instagram. Special thanks to Rachel Dolan for sharing her stories with us today. The Ensemblist was produced by Mo Brady, Jackson Klein, and me, Justin Mock. Please rate and review The Ensemblist wherever you listen to your podcasts on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or bpn.fm, the home of Broadway Podcast Network. Our Patreon members have on-demand access to our archive, including full conversations with our guests and early access to episodes. You can support us for between $5 to $20 a month at patreon.com slash The Ensemblist. Thanks for listening. Until next time.