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[0:10] Rob Russo: Welcome to DANCIN’ Man, a fabulous invalid podcast featuring exclusive behind-the-scenes interviews with the cast and creative team of Bob Fosse's DANCIN' on Broadway.

[0:18] Jamie DuMont: I'm Jamie DuMont, and we're your hosts.

[0:22] Rob Russo: Dancing sadly closed on Broadway on May 14th, but we remain so proud to have been co-producers of the show.

[0:28] Jamie DuMont: And we still had a few cast members to talk to, so we headed back to Rosevale Cocteau Room at Civilian last Friday for a few final conversations.

[0:35] Rob Russo: Yes, and joining us for this episode is cast member Ioana Alfonso.

[0:39] Jamie DuMont: Io made her Broadway debut in the original cast of Wicked 20 years ago.

[0:43] Rob Russo: She performed in 9 to 5 on Broadway.

[0:45] Jamie DuMont: She worked with Wayne Salento on Holler If You Hear Me.

[0:48] Rob Russo: And as the associate director to Kenny Leon for American Sun and Top Dog Underdog on Broadway.

[0:53] Jamie DuMont: She's done national tours, off-Broadway shows, TV specials, movie musicals.

[0:58] Rob Russo: She's performed with Mia Michaels.

[0:59] Jamie DuMont: In short, Io has done it all.

[1:01] Rob Russo: She really has.

[1:02] Jamie DuMont: I mean, that's everything you can do in the dance world, she's done.

[1:05] Rob Russo: Times 10.

[1:06] Jamie DuMont: Truly.

[1:06] Rob Russo: And it's pretty amazing.

[1:08] Jamie DuMont: Before we get to our conversation with her, we live in an imperfect world.

[1:12] Rob Russo: We are recording in Manhattan, and unfortunately, there's some work that's being done around us.

[1:18] Jamie DuMont: So you're gonna hear a little drilling and some hammering and some other noises.

[1:22] Rob Russo: Unfortunately, there wasn't anything we could really do about it, but there it is.

[1:25] Jamie DuMont: Look, if we lived in a perfect world, DANCIN' would still be on Broadway.

[1:28] Rob Russo: Well from your mouth.

[1:30] Jamie DuMont: There you go.

[1:31] Rob Russo: All right, shall we talk to Io?

[1:33] Jamie DuMont: Let's do it.

[1:44] Rob Russo: Hello, welcome to our show today.

[1:46] Ioana Alfonso: Oh my gosh, thank you for having me.

[1:48] Rob Russo: We're so excited to chat with you.

[1:49] Jamie DuMont: I really, if you didn't get that already, I'm gonna say it on the record. We're talking to you as you're heading into your last weekend of performances for DANCIN'.

[1:56] Ioana Alfonso: By the time this airs, the show will have closed.

[1:59] Rob Russo: Our aim with this podcast was to explore all aspects of doing a show on Broadway. And sadly, a closing notice is part of that.

[2:06] Jamie DuMont: How are you feeling today? And what was your reaction to the closing?

[2:07] Ioana Alfonso: Oh my gosh, you were just asking that, and I got all emotional and teary-eyed. I'm gonna try not to ugly cry through this whole podcast, because it's a very emotional time.

[2:22] Ioana Alfonso: I would say that I wasn't quite ready for it. I think that sometimes we're part of productions where you can see it coming, or you feel like, you know what, we really did our best, but some things are not working. You know, at the end of the day, what we do to try to put these shows together is like magic, and sometimes it's a miracle when it actually works. And so there's often more failure than there is success. And so I've been a part of productions that have closed, obviously. And there's always that feeling, I wouldn't say always, but often there's that feeling of, uh well, I kind of, you know, expected that, or I could see it coming. But with this one, I really didn't, and I think I'm still processing a lot of it, and I'm still a little bit in shock, maybe.

I sort of can't believe that we only have four shows left. So I'm sad, if I'm honest. I'm really sad and I'm disappointed, and I'm concerned about the industry, and I'm concerned about the implications of not supporting a show that is different and unique. I think Nicole Fosse put out an article today that speaks to that that is really great. So it's a mixed bag. I'm just feeling a lot.

[3:50] Ioana Alfonso: And then personally, at my age, you just wonder what the next thing is gonna be, because for a dancer specifically, the roles that I want to do and the things that I want to do are different than they were when I was 20. And there's not a lot of shows like this. There's not a lot of opportunities to be able to do this type of thing where dancers are kind of front and center and also get to sing and act and be themselves and experience iconic material. On a personal note, I'm also mourning sort of this like is it my last dance show? And you know, I think Martha Graham famously said, dancers die twice. And so I'm in that place of I'm gonna try not to cry, of wondering, like, is it like, you know, and some of it might be by choice.

Maybe I don't want to be in another ensemble after this experience. And not that there's anything wrong with that, but I've sort of already done that. And so I'm just wondering, like, what is my dance life look like next? Is there a dance life? Is there gonna be another show on stage? But is that part of the experience of being a dancer? Is there always a clock sort of ticking like there's an end game here? There's a, there's I only have so much time in which I can do X, Y, and Z, or is it really escalated because of the closing notice of this show? I would say both.

[5:27] Ioana Alfonso: I think that a dancer's life is always with the understanding that the clock is ticking, and you never know when that's gonna be, right? Like you could get injured and be cut short before you know it, like you know, before you've even started your career, or you could dance well into your, you know, Cunningham was dancing like into his 80s. So it just, I guess some of it is choice, some of it is what you want to do, some of it is, you know, I don't, it's this show is really hard. So I don't know if I how much longer I personally can and want to do it. So there is a ticking clock in that way, but also when a show closes, and in particular with this experience, that does accelerate because it's suddenly unexpected, right?

So I have to now I have to deal with a lot of questions about okay, well, now where am I going? Like what am I doing with this experience? And what how do I want to pursue the next steps? Because I kind of have to, right? Like I still have you know bills to pay and a life to live and dreams that I still want to fulfill. So I think it's I think it's both.

[6:47] Rob Russo: When we spoke to Wayne, we talked about what he did after DANCIN', right? Because he faced a similar question artistically, career-wise, you know, what do I do now? I've gotten a Tony nomination, I've been a member of this ensemble of principles. Now what?

[7:04] Ioana Alfonso: Right. So it's fascinating to see, you know, 40 years later, this company will be asking, I'm sure, a lot of the same questions. The other day he stopped by the theater and pulled us all backstage to, you know, give us some love and kind of talk about, you know, where he was and connect with us. And it was interesting. It was like a cautionary tale. He said, You guys are gonna be different now. Oh my god, I'm gonna cry again. You guys are gonna be different now. You're gonna have had this experience and it's gonna be hard to go back. And so he was like, I just hope that whatever the next steps are are fulfilling and that you are mindful about what your next choices are. So I thought that was really interesting and sort of, like I said, a cautionary tale. Hard one advice, you know.

[7:52] Jamie DuMont: Yeah, exactly. Well, speaking of, you know, sort of next steps, in a way you've sort of already done some of your next steps, right? Because you've pivoted to directing. You served as an associate director for Top Dog Underdog just this season on Broadway, and I've worked with Kenny Leon on American Sun, and you even worked with Wayne on Holler If You Hear Me as a choreographic assistant. So even before DANCIN' came along, it seems like you were already thinking about not maybe pivoting's not the right word, but you know, flexing other muscles that you have in your artistic toolbox to mix a metaphor.

[8:28] Ioana Alfonso: Yeah, yeah, for sure. When the pandemic hit, like so many of us, it you know, you ask all a gazillion questions of yourself in that kind of space. This is actually the complete opposite of what I had intended to do. Life has a way.

[8:35] Jamie DuMont: Yes.

[8:35] Ioana Alfonso: I had intended to be a part of the sort of post-pandemic reopening of Broadway, the historic sort of experience of that. And I was excited to do that with Wicked because it was my Broadway debut. It feels like home. It just felt right. I thought, okay, I'll go back one last time. I've been back and forth there for many years. And I'll take that time and space to figure out sort of what my next moves are. Because at the time I was thinking, you know, during the pandemic and having all that space, I was like, well, I don't know that I want to do an eight show week schedule the way that I've been doing it in a long-running show because it takes a toll, and I have a family now. And I was just asking big life questions about quality of life and space and family and creativity and how it all fits together.

My plan was to go back to Wicked and figure a way out, basically, whether it meant like, you know, directing or whether it meant doing something creative or whether it meant starting a business or just quitting the business altogether. But what I thought I knew at the time was what I'm definitely not doing is dancing really hard eight shows a week. I literally thought like that's not in like I had started the process of letting go of dance, which for me personally has been like a very long drawn-out death to go back to what we were talking about, versus like a cut. And so this opportunity came along and it just took me there in that direction.

[10:23] Ioana Alfonso: So to answer your question, I feel like I've always just gone like I've only had the space to go one step at a time. And so I had I have been planting these seeds and flexing these muscles, but they haven't necessarily, to be honest, been intentional. There's always an opening for that. I can't say that in this moment as the show is closing that I know specifically like I'm gonna go in that direction, but I do think that it is something that I enjoy doing that I would like to do more of. But now I'm like, I've got the dance bug, right? So I'm like, wait, oh God, I'm not done. I thought I was done and I'm not, I'm totally not done, like at all.

[11:05] Jamie DuMont: It's just ironic that you thought maybe a year ago, oh, I don't want to do the eight show thing. I don't want to, you know, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but like I don't want to work that hard. And then you go into literally one of the hardest shows I'm assuming you've ever done.

[11:20] Ioana Alfonso: Yes.

[11:20] Jamie DuMont: Because as we have discussed before, it is a marathon dancing.

[11:25] Ioana Alfonso: And it is, it is, I would imagine very gratifying, but also it's hard.

[11:29] Ioana Alfonso: It's super hard, and you are right, it is the hardest show I've ever done. And I've done, you know, hard, you know, Twilight shows and stuff like that. But this is like a totally different feast. So, yes, it's the complete opposite of what I was gonna do. And but now, weirdly, now I really love doing it. It's like a reminder of my first love, a reminder that that it is what brings me ultimate joy and ultimate freedom. And in particular, what I've discovered is that Fosse's work is all encompassing, and so it's been a very like almost spiritual experience as well. And so it's just been really deep all around, and now I find myself having a really hard time letting go of it.

[12:19] Rob Russo: Well, you know what they say about your first love, right?

[12:21] Ioana Alfonso: What do they say?

[12:22] Rob Russo: You never get over it.

[12:23] Ioana Alfonso: That's exactly right.

[12:24] Rob Russo: So oh, that's exactly right. So what I've discovered is like through the process of thinking that I'm letting go of something, I've actually come to the realization that like you will always be a dancer. It might look differently, but there's no letting go of it necessarily.

[12:40] Jamie DuMont: Well, I don't want to talk solely in platitudes or cliches today, but I'm going to forget it. But sometimes to hold on to something tighter, you have to let it go.

[12:49] Ioana Alfonso: Absolutely.

[12:49] Jamie DuMont: So, and that sounds like has that it to a certain extent has been your experience post pandemic to sitting with us right now.

[12:56] Ioana Alfonso: Part of it, I think is obviously in retrospect, like reflecting on it, which I've I at the in the moment I didn't know. But I think maybe why I'm even in this position is that when I stepped into the possibility that I could be in the show or to the audition at all, it wasn't, it didn't, I mean, it there was immense pressure, but I also there was a part of me that was kind of like, this is never gonna happen.

[13:26] Ioana Alfonso: There was a freedom in that, um, that I didn't expect, that I wasn't seeking it, that I, you know, I understood the gravity of the situation, like I understood that I really needed to show up and I wanted to show up for Wayne and Corinne, and you know, I have a history with them, so I just wanted to do well for them as well and have joy in the room and all of that. But I also, there was a huge part of me that was like, I mean, we're gonna be here for, you know, I'm gonna just go through this one round and I'm gonna say I did it. And I'm gonna walk, you know. The process, like during the pandemic of thinking, oh, I'm in this phase of like slowly letting go of me being that identity or that thing, I think allowed me to show up in the room with less expectation. Taking a step back, you know, let's talk about little EO.

[14:18] Jamie DuMont: Yeah.

[14:18] Ioana Alfonso: When did you start dancing?

[14:20] Ioana Alfonso: I think that I started taking like a movement class pretty young, like probably four or five. Um, when I lived in Puerto Rico, my mom put me in like an after school thing. But then my best friend at the time, the parents got together and they were like, the National Ballet of Puerto Rico has this really beautiful school. So I started, I would say like five or six in the program there, and I just loved it. I just thought it was like such a magical, idyllic place. This particular school is on the top of a hill, and it's a studio where, you know, it's an island, so it's flat on the ground, it's not a building. Uh, the windows are always open. Um, you can see out when you look down, there's Pasofinos, like there's horses that they're training.

It's just like this gorgeous green thing, and they're rehearsing the ballets in the studio next door, and I would always watch, you know, the older dancers and their tutus, and so I just remember like my memory of it was just that it was like this really magical experience, and I just loved being there. When we moved to Miami when I was like maybe 10 or 11, I stopped doing it because we were in a new place. My parents probably were preoccupied with, you know, the new city. I don't remember having like that moment that a lot of people talk about at that time of like this is what I want to do. So I think it didn't stem from me to say, let's find a dance school. I was just kind of going with the flow and enjoying my life.

But we did, um, so I had stopped dancing, and so we at some point went to some festival at a place called Bayside, which, um, they have all these like events. Um, and I just remember seeing a dance company there. Uh, that's the moment that I remember saying, oh, I want to do that, whatever that is. It just, I just feel something with that. Um, it was athletic and emotional, and I just like loved it. And it was Mia Michael's dance company, which is interesting because my mom then started to ask around, you know, to all her friends, whenever, you know, what's the best school? Where do I take my daughter? She wants to go. And so I remember the day that we went to Joe Michaels dance studio, not knowing, not putting those things together.

And I remember my mom speaking to the front desk person, which was actually Mia's mom later on, I found out. But they're talking, and you know, she's getting all the information about the classes, and I looked through the door, and Mia at the time had these like long braids. And so I, she was very recognizable. And I saw her and I was like, Mom, this is the place. This is where we're going. Like I don't care how much it costs. I don't know when the classes are, like, I don't have any of the information, but this is like where I'm supposed to be.

[17:14] Jamie DuMont: What's funny to me is that you knew that was the right place. That you just, it was inside.

[17:20] Ioana Alfonso: Yeah.

[17:20] Ioana Alfonso: You were, you were meant to be there, right?

[17:22] Ioana Alfonso: Yeah, I've, you know, in retrospect, everything is in retrospect, right? Like now I'm like, oh wow, how fascinating that like serendipitously I ended up in what was meant to be, I guess.

[17:33] Jamie DuMont: Well, now here we are. You're dancing on Broadway, you know.

[17:36] Ioana Alfonso: That's crazy. Uh, well, one of the fun things that we've loved to do on this podcast is to talk to folks about a couple of the moments in the show where they get a soloist moment or a featured, you know, moment. And of course, everyone has them, which is what's so great about this company. So to kick us off, one moment we'd love to talk about is the monologue that you do that sort of introduces the percussion segment of the show, which I don't know if we've ever confirmed this, but do you know who wrote it?

[18:02] Ioana Alfonso: Um, Kirsten wrote it.

[18:04] Jamie DuMont: Kirsten wrote it.

[18:04] Ioana Alfonso: Yeah.

[18:05] Jamie DuMont: So it wasn't in the original or it was?

[18:07] Ioana Alfonso: You know, my understanding is that in the original, Percussion had sections that had, um, small bits of, uh, monologues in it. Actually, now that we're talking about this, it's interesting. I assumed that the whole thing was new. Yeah. Um, but now I'm wondering if there are bits and pieces of it from the other, from the other. You know, we had such little footage of it.

[18:31] Jamie DuMont: Exactly.

[18:31] Ioana Alfonso: Yeah. Um, that I've never seen it, obviously. And I don't think anyone has ever mentioned that to me, and I never really thought to ask because I love it so much that I just took it and ran.

[18:44] Jamie DuMont: It's quite profound.

[18:45] Ioana Alfonso: And, and what, what did you think the first time you read it? What was your reaction?

[18:49] Ioana Alfonso: You're sort of crying.

[18:54] Ioana Alfonso: Basically the reaction I'm having now. It's just I feel seen. Um, in a really profound way with those words. My gosh, it's so layered for me. And when I read it for the first time, I thought I can't wait to do this. Even if I don't get this job, I can't wait to do this for myself. I think it's just got all of the elements that I find so incredible about the material. So it talks about music, it's got humor in it, it's got sex in it, it's full of heart. It talks about the man himself. I loved the idea of it being described as Fosse's female spirit or female Fosse, I forget how they worded it, but for me, I took it like, you know, we all have elements of ourselves that are both masculine and feminine.

And Mr. Fosse was known for being, you know, Wayne always talks about how he was kind of quiet in the room and very, uh, internal and, um, not necessarily like super emotional, but, uh, or at least not like in public, I would say. But there was something about this idea of he, to me, it feels like his heart is so obviously large and his spirit is so obviously full in everything that he's created that it for me was an opportunity to explore the female part of him that we all have. So female energy being creative and being emotional and being, um, vulnerable, sort of like the motherly mom side of things, even if it's something that you don't see externally exploring what that might feel like or look like inside of him was really beautiful and profound to me.

And I get to say, oh God, I said I wasn't gonna cry. I get to say that I love dancers every show. And I get to say that dancers love to dance and that we are music and that we are the music. And I'm married to a drummer. So I get to talk about drums and percussion and what that means in my own life, not only personally as being married to a drummer, but also, um, as a dancer, you know, like and having percussion be such a vital part of what we do. I mean, it's just got everything in there. I feel so lucky to be able to say those words and have that experience and be able to hopefully share that with the audience. And in the last week, it's taken on every week, it's like you peel the onion, and it's like a new layer of like with all of his work, not just the monologue, but everything.

It's like, oh, you know, you're just constantly revealing these layers, which I think is what's so genius about his work. But this week it's been a lot about like the line that has stuck out for me is, um, we are instruments, you know, dancers are instruments, and there's something about the show closing that has given those lines weight that I hope that the audience, um, has that shared experience with us of acknowledging that, um, yes, we are the dancers that are currently on stage, but like you are dancers too. I believe everyone is a dancer, and hopefully they can see themselves in us and that they understand that they too are instruments and that they too are vehicles for, um, experiencing life and creativity and that and that and communication, and so it gets very deep for me and very complex and layered, um, and every word I feel is vital.

[23:01] Jamie DuMont: So I'm, I'm just, I'm gonna miss that it's rare to have an opportunity to do something that is so, as you just described so eloquently, so wound up in your own experience of the thing, right? And so personal and yet so universal.

[23:21] Ioana Alfonso: Waiting and Karina both talked a lot about like, okay, well, how do we navigate sort of like representing you still are saying I am the composer? So you're still him, right? To a degree in a very vague, you're not like a caricature of him or a direct sort of, um, representation of the man, right? But it's a more ethereal idea. And how do you do that? Are you emotional because EO is emotional, or are you emotional as you know, Bob? And I try my best to make sure that it's not about me. That's very important to me. But I can't help but have a common, what I think is a common thread. Oh, here we go again. Um, a common thread with him. And so it brings me closer to him because I think that anybody who's a dancer or experienced dance or experienced his work, inevitably is forever changed, right? And connected to what I would assume is his heart.

[24:29] Jamie DuMont: Yeah.

[24:29] Ioana Alfonso: And so I feel close to him in that moment, and it's hard sometimes to be separate from entirely. So I think it's both.

[24:40] Jamie DuMont: Well, it's, and there's also something that's so profound there because, you know, if you know anything about Bob Fosse, you know that he was an extraordinary dancer. And that at a certain point in his career, he became a choreographer, and he never really got to dance again the same way. I mean, he did Pal Joey at City Center, right? Which he like fought for, you know, after doing a couple shows as a choreographer. So he really understood in his bones, you know, the sentiments of that.

[25:06] Ioana Alfonso: Yeah, I mean, videos of him doing pamphlet man are just like outrageous. He was amazing.

[25:12] Jamie DuMont: Yeah.

[25:13] Ioana Alfonso: And I think there's a shared heart there, you know.

[25:15] Jamie DuMont: Mm-hmm.

[25:15] Ioana Alfonso: And didn't Nicole tell us that he said to her, it's either dance or drumming.

[25:19] Jamie DuMont: Yes.

[25:20] Ioana Alfonso: One of the two.

[25:20] Jamie DuMont: You either have to be a dancer or a drummer.

[25:22] Ioana Alfonso: Yeah.

[25:23] Jamie DuMont: Yeah.

[25:23] Ioana Alfonso: And it makes so much sense. He's so musical and so, um, specific about how he hears things. And part of the challenge and joy of doing his work is, you know, feeling that out. It's just so layered that monologue in every way. I love the audience response that it gets. I love the interaction that you get with the audience, which is really special. And I think it's so great as an audience member to be instructed a little bit by that speech or reminded by that speech of who you all are on stage and the marriage of music and dance. It's very heartfelt. I really enjoy that moment for that reason as well. Um, being able to just connect with the audience and have what I imagine in my mind is a conversation with them and trying to let them into the world.

[26:23] Ioana Alfonso: I do love that Manny's monologue sets up this is what it is. And then your monologue sets up this is who we are. And they're very nice companions to one another. Yeah, and then Yani's monologue at the end is, and this is why we do it. Yes. Yes. Which I think is really beautiful. But I do think that it is important for me in that way because it is profound and it is about something kind of sort of bigger than everything, and using his work and dance and the universal experience and language of it all as a vehicle for something like bigger and more profound. Um, I think that that's why I personally love dance and why I personally love dancers, and I feel like working on this material makes me feel like I don't know.

I think that that was a part of who he was, um, and what he wanted to express, and how he wanted to um create material that um was like otherworldly and really tapped into something that you just can't use words for. Like you just have to watch it and you know, maybe you're laughing in one moment, you're crying in another, you're feeling distress in another, whatever it is. So um there's that great Martha Graham quote. Someone asked her to explain one of her dances. And she said, Well, if I could explain it, then I wouldn't have to dance it. Exactly. You know, it sounds like what you're describing, you know. Like, well, it's like when words are not getting you to where you need to get, then the next step is like song and dance. Yeah.

[28:21] Ioana Alfonso: Oh, yeah. Well, I imagine another profound moment for you in the show might be your duet with Manny. Yeah. In Joint Endeavors. Um, for many reasons, one of which is the fact that you've known each other for so long. Yeah. Talk to us a little bit about that, that that moment in the show. I mean, Manny's basically family. I'm gonna cry again. God. Um, I mean, the first time I we danced together, the first time we did a duet together, I you know, we were young. I mean, I think it was I might have been like 19 or 20, and then he was still at SAB, he's a little bit younger than me. You know, we did Wicked together, and he was Chistery in the original, so we didn't partner that much then, even though we danced together.

But then when he came back, he was in a track where we did partner together. Um, and so as far as like work goes, we've had a professional life together for many, many years, but we've also had a personal life for many, many years. You know, his I'm you know, auntie to his kids and he's uncle to my son, and so it's really beautiful to be able to share the stage with him again. And um to be able to dance that duet is also really special. I also we also had the realization fairly recently where um we take a lot of things for granted, right? So uh meaning when you know someone so well and when you've danced together for so long, you take like how how tricky some things are for granted. Cause it's actually a very difficult, technically challenging piece, and you really have to be listening to each other.

Um the timing is not definitive, it's not like on a specific count. You really have to be breathing together, you really have to be using your weight and your level of trust in each other. Um has to be pretty heightened. And when we were rehearsing with the understudies, who are brilliant in this show, we forgot, like, oh, I have shorthand with Manny. That like when we were rehearsing, the things that we were rehearsing were just a little bit different, where the technical aspects of it or the getting to know each other aspect of it was more evident with the understudies. I danced the number with Pedro a few times, and he's so fantastic. Um, but we don't know each other, right? So there was a lot of like, oh, okay, I gotta feel your body, and I've gotta we have to feel our timing. And so it's really beautiful to be reminded that like, oh wow, we have this connection to each other that is really beautiful that dance partners develop over time.

[31:00] Ioana Alfonso: And for those who didn't see the show, you know, we're talking about a very intimate. Oh which is like slightly weird, I won't lie, because he's like basically like my brother. Yeah. So I have to just kind of ignore that part of it. Um it's pretty sexy, it's pretty sensual. Yeah, and there, I mean, there have definitely been moments. I mean, the very in the very beginning, it was like giggle fest. I mean, I just couldn't take it seriously because I couldn't look him, you know, at his face across the room and take him seriously. And I had to sort of develop the muscle of like ignoring that. Because even now, if I allow myself to see him for him on stage, like as Manny, I'll never get through the number, literally.

He strikes me as someone that's very fun to work with. Oh my gosh. He seems like a bit of a goofball just. Oh, yeah. Super easy, very collaborative. And it's interesting because you know, this particular moment in the show, Joint Endeavors, is built from a section of All That Jazz. Which, if you've seen the film uh take off the number take off with us, the camera, because it's Bob Fosse, it's just constantly moving. So you actually don't see the full dances, you just see a lot of shapes mostly. Yeah. And so this is one of those moments where you're like, was dancing really a revival? Because in a way, this is like kind of new material because you're piecing it together. It's pieced together, right? And you had to get from shape to shape. And how you did that was discovered, right? Yeah.

[32:26] Ioana Alfonso: And also, you know, there's something that you can't do on stage that you can do with a camera, right? Like you can cut to a certain lift, or you can cut to the way something looks, you can you can create a sense of height or a certain position by standing on a chair and doing something, um, and then just like editing the chair out, or you know, whatever. And so we had to find transitions between things that um are not seen on film about how you get from one place to another, like that lift that we do where he, you know, it's kind of like where I'm flying, and then I go down into the handstand. We're not sure how they got into that because all you see in the film is that position. Right. So we had to figure out like, okay, how do we make that transition from this place to that place?

And that's a perfect example of a moment that's not necessarily counted, right? It just sort of happens. None of it is really counted. Which is what I it's probably the reason I love this section of the show so much, yeah, because of that, because there's sort of an organic kind of live element to it that's like this is only happening this way, this one time. Because you're feeling it that night. Yeah. There's a level of trust and there's a level of timing. And that's the shorthand that I think we were taking for granted for a while, which is like I can just feel the subtle changes that he's doing in shifts of weight. I'm sure he can feel mine. You know, every now and then I can see like a very small thing in his eyes where I'm like, oh, okay, you know, we're going this way, or you know, if my if I'm just off balance slightly, or if he's like, we're just able to literally dance together um and adjust as needed in real time, uh, which is something that takes time, like you said, to to get to, and something that I keep mentioning we we sort of take for granted.

And and because it's not timed, you have no choice but to breathe with each other and kind of feel it out. Um, so that's why I think um that section in particular is really um tricky and hard and requires like more rehearsal than like so much dance, it's a conversation without words. Absolutely. Yeah, I feel like that's probably the moment in the show where that we have the most um at least I do the most level of that kind of conversation that's just breathing in unspoken. Um that you just rely on the other person's um ability to listen to you and and trust that it's just gonna work out.

[35:02] Ioana Alfonso: Before we move on, I have to ask in Big Spender, your character not only has a poodle, which I think is a stuffed kangaroo, yeah, and a cane. I'm curious why both problems. I mean, I get the poodle because it's it's dialogue and it's a joke. Where does the cane come from? Early on in the process in the first workshop, I was doing double duty. And so I was doing Wicked at night and then rehearsing, dancing during the day. And um I ended up tearing my meniscus pretty early on in the process. And so I had a cane because I needed one to be able to walk. The creative team was kind enough to let me continue, like do the workshop, but not do the dancing. So I did all of the book scenes and absorbed the information of the reconstruction of the movement, but didn't do the movement.

And so I was able to walk with a cane, but I wasn't able to do like much more. I ended up having surgery after that workshop, right before San Diego. But I had a cane in rehearsal. So I just inserted the cane into what I was doing. And then, you know, and then it became a thing. So then I was having a lot of fun, and I was like, oh, okay, so maybe maybe the cane is a thing, and so now I can use it to make jokes. I'm sure nobody sees this, but it's you know, when I come out and Joe Vaughn hands me some money. We we kind of built this little section into um the cane that I had in the studio. Uh it comes apart for whatever reason. I'm not really sure why that happens. Maybe they change the grip or something, but it's like a medical cane, you know.

It's not a sexy cane. It's not at all. Um, and so I just remember playing with it and you know, having I like to, you know, get creative and have fun with whatever I have. So I was just playing with it, and I was like, oh, this comes apart. That's so weird. And then I was like, I know I'm gonna put drugs in there. And so I made like a whole like really just for my own entertainment, four-act play out of like this cane. And so now we have a cane that like comes apart, and I, you know, pour out drugs and hand them to Joe Bon, and then he gives me money, and you know, it's like a whole thing. Um, but it says and hopefully it adds color to the scene.

[37:21] Ioana Alfonso: Yeah. Yeah. Well, we when we talked to Yaman, he talked about how when they when he exits with Ronnie and and Corey at the end of their amazing, you know, solo and Sing Sing Sing, he he takes off one suspender. Yeah, you know, because they're getting ready to be able to do it. And it's the kind of thing that you would never notice, you know, because it happens in the wing and whatever. But now every time I see the show, I go right to it. I'm like, oh, I know the secret. Yeah. You know, so now we know the secret of your own. Yeah, it also I think like helps ground us, right? Like the more I'm a big fan of like the more details I have, the more stuff I have to play with, and the more alive I can be in every show.

Without those things, I feel like it becomes um either it'll either for me, and I can only speak for myself, it'll either go like the stale route or it'll leave me without fun. And so I like to just keep it alive, keep it present, keep it creative as much as I can, and hopefully laying those foundations down for those little pieces then um allows you to sort of grow into other pieces, and then you know, nine times out of ten, I have to be reeled in, like, okay, now that scene is about you, so like let's you know, because I've I just get all excited and start to have like a four-act play by myself in the corner, you know.

[38:44] Ioana Alfonso: Well, what I love about the cane is, and I noticed as I I watch it every single time is how grounded in reality it is. So when you're dancing with the cane, when the cane should hit the ground for stabilization, it hits the ground for stabilization. It's very real, and I I love that. It's not just a prop that you use for a joke and then forget about. It's really fun to watch because it's not a throwaway at all. That's awesome. I love that you noticed that. Yeah, I had a feeling you'd I know. Well, now I have to ask because you you brought it up. When you were when you were injured and you were watching the reconstruction, as a dancer, did you find that process frustrating, or was it actually informative?

[39:27] Ioana Alfonso: Because I'm assuming that's the first time you've learned a show that way, right? Where you weren't able to just jump in and dance it, right? You had to take it in intellectually and visually. How what was that like? Super frustrating. Yeah, I hated every second of it. It was really hard, especially because I've never done Fosse repertoire before, so it's not material that I am familiar with or have ever done before, and so the nuances of it are things that you can't really learn visually, right? Um, you know, I can see the shapes, I can get the information, but you really have to get it in your body, and our rehearsal process didn't have any mirrors, and so there's an additional element of having to be inside that was necessary to um being able to be authentic and get all the technical aspects of it.

I also didn't really know at the time what was going on because I tore my meniscus and then the doctors were like, well, you just need to give it time before we make any decisions. So there wasn't any real like, oh, you'll need surgery, I'll do this, you'll be done in two weeks. And in my mind, because dancers are dancers, I was like, no, I mean, I tore it. It's funny in retrospect now, because I I tore it pretty badly. And I remember being at the rehearsal, feeling it and hearing it tear, but then still dancing. Cause I was like, oh no, no, no, no. This is not happening right now. I'm just gonna keep going. And my knee was like out to here. It was like a huge grapefruit. And I was like, no, I'm fine, I'm fine.

Everything's fine. Everything's fine. And I just kept dancing. And so, you know, there's something that happens when you get injured where again, it's like a sort of a mourning process. You're like in denial first, and then there's like this deep sadness, and then there's like, you know, the other five stages, and then you're like letting it go. So I was still in that place of trying to deal with like, am I, is this like the end? Or is this just temporary? And at that time the workshop was only like a couple of weeks. So I was missing, like in my mind the whole thing. Everyone was super supportive. Wayne couldn't have been more wonderful. Um, self-imposed pressure of what must this look like?

Do I look weak? Do I appear like I can't do it? The age thing again, it's like fighting against that idea of like, it's not because I'm old, you know, like, which I don't believe is true. Like, I happen to believe that, you know, age is just a number, like that's not a thing. But that noise of like, what are other people assuming, or what is that noise informing the room about me? And um, so I had some mental noise going on that I was definitely trying to fight against, and then watching the material just being, you know, they did a lot of material that first workshop. Yeah, a lot. Um, and feeling like I don't really know it. I don't know what it feels like. Um, so I was really stressed about it.

But the amazing thing, of course, is that uh to see the show, certainly no one would ever know any of that. And that, you know, the story has a happy, if not now, bittersweet ending. Yeah, you know, because uh of everything that came to be, right? This extraordinary run that you all had on Broadway.

[42:56] Jamie DuMont: So you've been so generous with your time. And I just have one last question for you. Um on International Dance Day, which was recently, you shared a reel on social media that was sort of like, you know, a whole highlights reel of your career, right? All this amazing footage of you dancing from everything it seems like you've ever done. When you look at that footage, what do you think?

[43:21] Ioana Alfonso: It's so wild. I had an experience actually, uh oh my gosh, all the days are running into each other. Not yesterday, but the day before that, where um Janet Jackson came to the show, and it was obviously really fun and really exciting, but also for me, a moment similar to the reel where I just had this crazy like flashback of my life and how uh just lucky and wild is really the word um it's been because a lot of it I feel for me anyway has been me just riding a wave that uh happened serendipitously like it almost feels like this wild, full, you know, I've traveled a bunch of places and I've done a lot of like very seemingly like random things. So, you know, I I have had the the honor of doing of like I don't know, having an original Broadway show, but then also touring with pop artists or doing like very underground, you know, not making a dollar like work at, you know, La Mama downtown.

And um, you know, when Janet came to the show, she had told us that she changed her travel plans to come to our show. She invited us to her concert specifically because she grew up on Fosse, um, grew up on movie musicals. She mentioned um, you know, Kiss Me Kate was something that she used to watch all the time. And, you know, I immediately, I I posted about this recently. I immediately went back in time to 12-year-old me watching these videos and thinking, like, oh, this is so much fun, and like I'm so inspired by them, and just feeling all this joy, and just like literally my life has been like putting just one foot in front of the other. Like, I went to, you know, we were talking earlier about like I ended up at this dance studio, and then you know, I met Mia serendipitously, and then she took me under her wing, and then suddenly I'm like assisting her at a very young age, doing all these like, but through her, like working with complexions one day and then doing theater another day, and then assisting her on a commercial another day, and I was like 15, you know, and living that life, and then going to Jacob's Pillow, which is like a concert venue in the summers, and going to you know, New World School of the Arts, and then coming to New York, like you know, being a Nick City dancer, like I it's just been such an insane.

I've just been taking one step in front of the other versus having a real uh I guess intention behind the planning of, which I think is why this current process, to go back to your like very original question, this current process feels so different to me because uh it's the first time in my life that I've had to think about now. Okay, like what what is next? Like what, you know, before it was just like a well, obviously I'm gonna do this and I'm just gonna keep doing it, and I know all these people like it, you know, and just kind of riding that wave. And I feel like I don't, I want to get off the wave now. Like I wanna be more intentional and more mindful about those things. And so the 12-year-old me looking at all those music videos took me into just like a like a uh a reel of my like life in general, and thinking about like wow, that's crazy.

The really honestly sheer luck of it all, and all these people that I've met, and it's it's been such a beautiful, you know, it's been expansive to look back. Like it's felt like, wow, all these cool people and these shared spaces and these shared experiences that are so unique and extraordinary and you know, full of life, like from the most challenging to also the most fulfilling. And how at this stage in my life, how I can take all of that life with a capital L and pass it on, like to my own child, but also like to the artistic world is kind of like when I see that reel, that's what I think of. As I'm like, wow, that's that's a lot. And that's there's stuff that I'm really, really proud of, even though a lot of it came with a lot of sacrifice and a lot of failure.

Um, which I think we don't talk enough about, but that's another podcast. Like I, you know, a lot of it looks beautiful, but like it's also like I also think about like all that went into all of that, which sometimes is not as uh you know Instagram ready.

[48:28] Jamie DuMont: Yeah, that's something I've been thinking about, you know, it's since the closing notice is like seeing you all on that stage and then thinking about the you know, running from school to get to dance class and uh the injuries and the heartbreak and the auditions and all of it, right? It's all wound up, and then there you are on stage at the Music Box Theater.

[48:46] Ioana Alfonso: Yeah. I mean, it's mostly failure. I mean, a lot of the time it's like you you audition for five hundred things and you get one, and there's just a constant rejection day after day, and you're also like I mentioned earlier, like you know, you've got all this mental chatter of like, am I good enough? You know, as dancers, we have to look into a mirror all of the time, which is also a trip in itself, and having to deal with like what that means when you're looking at your own reflection and judging it constantly, and you know, I it's it's an insane thing to do to be a creative person and a performer in particular, and also the most rewarding, beautiful, incredible thing if you can stomach it because it just comes with so many layers of um of things that are like both light and dark all at the same time.

But I think that that's really beautiful, and I think that I think that I love about Fosse is that he was able to embrace all of that humanity and all of that like madness that we all go through, whatever your life looks like. And he's able to put that into the material and into the work, and hopefully, you know, like I think about when when you know, speaking of the reel, like when I think about like the show as a reel, right? Of his life, I think, like, you know, you've got clowns, and clowns is this like really weird, hilarious moment, but it's also like a commentary on entertainment, and it's you know, got its own, you could like probably dissect it and have this whole thought process about that.

And then you've got, I don't know, um dancing man, which is this like profound prayer and emotional moment. I mean, there's like so many, and it's all so, and then you've got kiss me Kate, which is like joyful and sexy and beautiful and sing sing, which is just a party and a celebration. So I just, it's all so rich and beautiful and heartbreaking, and you know, all of the things, and I think I love that. I love experiencing all of it. And I hope it'll always, you know, put a smile on your face when you look back on this experience.

[51:10] Ioana Alfonso: Oh my god. Once I'm done ugly crying.

[51:12] Jamie DuMont: Yeah, exactly.

[51:14] Ioana Alfonso: Yeah, for sure. This has been a top highlight for sure of my life.

[51:22] Jamie DuMont: We'll see it on the road.

[51:23] Ioana Alfonso: No way, I'm crying again. Don't do this.

[51:26] Jamie DuMont: Well, thank you so much, Ioana, for sharing so much of your your soul and spirit and time with us.

[51:32] Ioana Alfonso: Thank you, and thank you for capturing all of our stories. It's really special to be able to listen to everyone's take on things.

[51:39] Jamie DuMont: It's been a privilege.

[51:54] Jamie DuMont: Oh DANCIN' Man, a Fabulous Invalid Podcast, is a production of O and M, etcetera, and the Fabulous Invalid LLC, and a proud member of the Broadway Podcast Network. Special thanks to Civilian for hosting us and to our audio engineer, Kyle Moore. If you liked this episode, we've got over a hundred episodes of the Fabulous Invalid Podcast that you can check out, including a two-part on the life, work, and legacy of Bob Fosse and Gwen Verdon. You can find us online at the Fabulous Invalid.com and on social media at Fabulous Invalid and on iTunes, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts.