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[0:00] Ken Davenport: Hey everybody, before we begin, in case you missed it, last week I taught a webinar for free about co-producing on Broadway, and it was our most popular webinar yet.

[0:10] Ken Davenport: If you missed it and are interested in learning more about the ins and outs of co-producing on Broadway, drop me an email at Ken at the Producer's Perspective dot com.

[0:19] Ken Davenport: That's Ken at the Producer's Perspective dot com. We'll send you a link. It's a pretty good one. Now on with the podcast.

[0:26] Ken Davenport: I wanna be a producer with a hit show on Broadway. I wanna be a producer.

[0:35] Ken Davenport: Hello everybody. My name is Ken Davenport. This is the Producers Perspective Podcast. I'm super excited to have someone I've known for a very long time on the podcast today, the Tony-nominated choreographer, Mr. Sergio Trujillo. Welcome, Sergio.

[0:49] Sergio Trujillo: Thank you, Ken. I'm thrilled to be here.

[0:51] Ken Davenport: So Sergio has a litany of shows on his resume, A Bronx Tale, On Your Feet, The Addams Family, the Tony Award-winning Memphis, and that little show that wasn't a success at all called Jersey Boy. This season he's gonna put Summer on Broadway in the spring. So Sergio, let's just start about the beginning. Like most choreographers out there, you started as a dancer, is that right?

[1:12] Sergio Trujillo: Yeah, that's right. My first show was, um, my first show on Broadway was Jerome Robbins'' Broadway in 1990. Almost 30 years ago, actually.

[1:20] Ken Davenport: Wow.

[1:20] Sergio Trujillo: Yes.

[1:21] Ken Davenport: Yeah, yeah.

[1:21] Sergio Trujillo: So I had, um, I have quite the, I didn't have a long career. I was at the expense of 10 years. My first show was Jerome Robbins'' Broadway, and my last show was Fosse. So it doesn't get as good as that.

[1:32] Ken Davenport: Yeah, from Jerome to Bob.

[1:35] Sergio Trujillo: I know. The masters, the masters, the masters of, you know, in terms of choreographer directors.

[1:40] Ken Davenport: And where were you from originally?

[1:42] Sergio Trujillo: So I'm originally from Colombia. I was born in Colombia, and then at the age of 12, my family immigrated to Toronto. You know, it was easier to get into Canada than America at that time. And, uh, that's where my whole family, all my family lives there now. And then at the age of twenty-four, twenty-five, I moved to New York to, you know, to come and be a dancer and give it a try, you know, see if I can make it and migrate one way and, uh, here we are thirty years later.

[2:08] Ken Davenport: And where did your love of dance begin? Like what was the first time that you experienced dance or like, oh my god, I gotta do that?

[2:16] Sergio Trujillo: Well, you know, I mean, dance has always been a part of my family. My family, I mean, they're insane. They're the, you know, I love them to death. Yeah, they're just, you know, my family is, uh, music and dance. We go to a wedding, you go to, even if you go to my sister's on a weekend, everyone's gathered around and they're always listening to music. So music and dance has always been part of my family. But real and like the first time I saw dance was at a theme park in Canada. It was called Canada's Wonderland. It had just opened and I went to see this, my friend, one of my friends took me to see the show called The Best of Broadway and I watched the show and I just thought, oh my god. You know, and growing up in Latin America, we're not big on musicals.

My family was not big on going to the theater. You know, it's social economics, it's just not in our radar, that's not what we do, that's not what our families did. So having the opportunity of going to see this show in a theme park, but doing that show called The Best of Broadway, and I saw those guys and I thought, oh my god, that's exactly what I want to do. So that was my first time that I saw dance.

[3:11] Ken Davenport: And you were how old then?

[3:12] Sergio Trujillo: I was eighteen.

[3:13] Ken Davenport: So that's very late for a dancer to get started. So what did you, what was the first thing you do? You're eighteen years old, you're fully formed now, right? Because so many dancers start very young and their bodies are formed by scenes, the classes and all the work they do. So what's the first thing you do?

[3:30] Sergio Trujillo: Well, the first thing I did, you know, well, I had a series of auditions. Actually, I had a sort of trial audition for, so I saw that show and I thought, oh my god, oh, I can do that. I've never taken a dance class in my life. So I found that they were having auditions. I went, you know, I think it was like maybe a year later, and I auditioned, I made up my own combination. I had no training. I choreographed my own routine to Earth, Wind & Fire's "Fantasy." And, uh, yes, of course.

[3:56] Ken Davenport: What a perfect design!

[3:57] Sergio Trujillo: Yeah, and it's my theme song. You know, it's like if anybody's ever gonna play my song, it's gonna be that. That's my theme song. But anyway, so I went to that audition and I flailed around and, you know, they saw this kid with all of this immense talent. So, you know, they took me aside and they said, you know, you're not right for this. Uh, you need to go train, and that's what I did. So I took it upon myself to, you know, I became obsessed with dance. And so, and I was always catching up. I was always feeling like, you know, I'm trailing behind. There's guys that have been dancing for 10, you know, 15 years before I got there. People have been dancing since they were four or five years old.

So I just became obsessed with it and was always just really focused on what I wanted to do. So that's why I came to New York. I came to New York to, um, I took time off from school. I was going to university, I was studying Caribbean. I went to the University of Toronto and studied biochemistry, then I went to chiropractic school. But during that whole time, I know, crazy, right? During that whole time, I was studying, uh, dance, uh, off on the side.

[4:53] Ken Davenport: I'm really incredibly focused in this man. I was like a, I was like a, like an Olympic act.

[5:04] Ken Davenport: Thank you. It's so fascinating because it sat you failed your first audition, right? You didn't get it. And then your training process, you were always behind. It sounds like you were the back of the class or the end of the list. Yeah, you kept going despite all that. Um, where a lot of people were like, I'm not as good as everyone else, I'm gonna give up. What kept you going through all that?

[5:08] Sergio Trujillo: You're probably the only choreographer out there that can give his dancers a combination and an adjustment, doesn't it?

[5:23] Sergio Trujillo: I think that there's a little part of all of us that are still here in New York pounding the pavement, you know, that are still working so hard, you know, that we're always just, you know, trying to beat the odds. I think that's the game of, I think that's what keeps us going. You know, there's a quality that I think the people that succeed at anything they do, it's that thing, you know, it's not the it factor, but you know, I think the it factor works for actors, singers, dancers, but I think for us that continue to do what we do, you know, you're such an established producer, um, established choreographer, and we've worked very hard to get here. I think had we paid attention to the no's, to the obstacles, I think we would have stopped, but I just kept going.

And then there's always that little voice in me that said you can do it. You know, as crazy as that may sound, but it is that thing, you know, also, you know, coming from Colombia, you know, you're a poor kid and you just weather it all, you know, based, you know, growing up in a country that is so poor and you see your parents work so hard and, you know, they're working as a factory and they're doing three jobs and you see your parents work so hard and you just think, you know, they can do it, I can do it.

[6:36] Ken Davenport: It's an amazing story to think about you as a poor kid in Colombia. Now look at where you are today. So you get to New York, you start as a dancer, you obviously get some big success pretty quick, but that's not enough for you. You decide you want to be a choreographer as well. When did that happen?

[6:53] Sergio Trujillo: I know you choreographed your first Earth, Wind & Fire audition sequence, so we know you had instincts early on. I may ask you to shoot a little video of that later. But when did you were like, okay, now I can do this. Now I can, I want to choreograph. I want to do what these people are teaching me to do. When did that happen?

[7:11] Sergio Trujillo: You know, I even, even before I took classes, even before I did that audition at the age of 18 years old, I was choreographing numbers for our variety show in high school, and I even choreographed the dream ballet in Oklahoma. And had never taken a dance class before. So I think that there was always that part of me that wanted to create, that wanted to have the creative freedom of expression, not only by dancing, but also by creating. You know, watching Chris Chadman when I did, um, when I did Guys and Dolls on Broadway because I danced in that show, or watching Rob Marshall when I danced for him in Kiss of the Spider Woman, or we did an encore. I assisted him when he was doing Annie. Oh, I can't remember.

We did a Disney television special. But you know, and Jerry Mitchell, Michael Peters, Debbie Allen, Vince Patterson, all of these choreographers that I was working with, you know, I was always watching them. Even my last show, Fosse, when we did Fosse, Andy Blankenbuehler and I would stand on the side and we try to figure out how to make this show better. So, and I knew then too that that was gonna be my last show. So, you know, it wasn't just that, you know, and when I danced, I was, you know, I was madly in love with dance. I mean, there was like, I loved it so much, you know, it's just like when you dance, I mean, you gotta love it. It's like when you do, you know, when you're a musician, you just gotta love it. But it was the same way when, you know, so I was so, it was always sort of my mind was always just thinking, what would I do? How would I do that? How would I fix that?

[9:07] Ken Davenport: So, well, first of all, a slight digression, I have to say, having watched you dance in a number of those shows, it was very obvious that you loved what you did. You're an extraordinary dancer. So tell me a little bit about this transition though. How hard was it for you to basically say to everybody, okay? I have a very successful career as a dancer. You could have done shows after Fosse, I am sure. Many. And I'm sure many people tried to get you to do them. You were like, no, I'm not doing this. I'm gonna choreograph now. How did you get people to take you seriously to give you a try? What was that transition like?

[9:41] Sergio Trujillo: You know, I think that again in life you sort of have to make decisions, and I think that you have to have a really clear vision and path. And so I knew that when I did Fosse, I knew that was gonna be my last show. I had made a decision that I wanted to choreograph and that I was going to choreography. I knew that being a choreographer in New York City was extremely competitive. Having, you know, worked for Jerry and Mitchell and being there at his auditions, danced in some of the auditions. I mean, I was in the creative team and his pre-production team when he did the audition for Guys and Dolls, choreographed on Broadway. Chris Chadman ended up choreographing. But so having seen that, you know, that Jerry was competing, Rob Marshall was competing, Rob Ashford, Kathleen Marshall, I was like, oh my god, well, I'm not gonna be able to compete with these guys that just got here.

So I'm Canadian, you know, I'm Colombian, Canadian, American, I'm United Nations. No, I thought, you know, okay, so I'm either gonna stay in New York and try and really like compete it. I get all of these guys who've been at it for 15 years already, or am I gonna be a big fish in a small pond? So I decided to choreograph in Toronto and Canada. So I, um, I was asked to if I would choreograph a revival of West Side Story at Stratford. During the time that I was doing Fosse, and I was like, oh, but I'm doing Fosse. But I thought, you know what, I'm gonna ask for a leave of absence. They gave me the legal absence. That production of Stratford was very successful. And from that, by working out Stratford, I got my first big choreographic job, choreographed Peggy Sue Got Married in the West End.

So that, you know, so by taking that chance of saying, you know what, so then let me let me give it a try in Canada and see, you know. I had, you know, I felt like by assisting all of these different choreographers, I got had done my master's in choreography, you know, because it's, but also part of learning and really is by doing. So I've either stayed in New York and did workshops or readings, which are, it's when you really have to deliver, you know, when you're really in those previews and you're really trying to figure out how to fix those numbers and you're watching your work and you're working with a team when the show is in production is when you really learn.

[11:52] Sergio Trujillo: It's like sure, it's like a doctor, it's like you know, you can study the books, but it's not until you start doing that you're actually learning. So I felt like I got a great education by doing it outside of New York. And so Canada afforded me those opportunities.

[12:06] Ken Davenport: I love that story because so many people, I think when they're pursuing their dreams and their passions, they're like, "Well, I'm gonna stay in New York because this is where I'm just gonna do it." And you made a very specific business decision about, "Oh, the best way for me to be seen, to get better at my craft is to go somewhere where I'll have more opportunities." Where I think so many people just sit here, like, "I'm just gonna sit here," and they don't get any attention at all. So talk to me a little bit about your process. You know, I think when people think about writers, they go, "Oh, a writer creates, I mean, they sit down and they type into their computer," but a musician composes something, they sit down at a piano and they write the music. How does a choreographer, how do you specifically create? What's that process for you?

[12:32] Sergio Trujillo: You know, I think, I mean, the more I've done, the more confident I've become, the more of a habit you get about how you begin to work on a project. And so when my husband Jack Knowsworthy was doing Mother Courage at the Public a few years ago, you know, he had a chat with her and he said, "So how do you get into your character?" And the essence of it was that, you know, she finds the character through the voice of the character. You know, how does the character speak? And she's an amazing dialectician. I mean, that just transforms her. And it was really interesting. So my point is that for me, it's like the way that—so for me, I become restless about how this show moves, how the show dances, how characters dance, and it's really a reaction to the music of the piece.

So for me, it's not about imposing how I dance, how Sergio moves, but rather figuring out, like, what is the language of hands on a hard bar? You know, like, what is the language of that show? And what is the language of Memphis? What is the language of Jersey Boy or Invisible Thread? Like, all of that. So I try to figure out how do I—that's the first thing. And so I spend—and no matter how many shows I've done, I'm always like a nervous wreck until I get into the rehearsal room, until I get into my pre-production room where I actually start to dance. Like, it's always this, it's cyclical. It's like a thing. It's like—and no matter what, I lose sleep and I can't sleep, and my husband says, "You're going through that thing again where I can't sleep because I'm—you know, I'll say, 'Oh my God, I haven't been able to sleep.

Why? What's wrong with me?'" But it's really because I'm going again through the—I'm creating again. So the minute I walk into that room and I just start to dance, even if I spend two hours just sitting there, like just moving a little bit with a couple of the dancers, that's where it begins to—the process begins to germinate for me.

[14:42] Sergio Trujillo: Like to what, you know, and then I start to find it and I start to create, and sometimes I create more vocabulary, more phrases than I actually do. Now, it's not always just like, you know, dance me dancing around. You know, there's always—I have the script, I figure out, you know, what section I'm choreographing, I choreograph various—I have a blueprint of each of the numbers. And you know, and it's really—I'm very pragmatic about it, I'm very organized about it. I even sometimes I even block them out so that when I walk into the room, I have a blueprint, and then I can play. And I'm very reactive to the dancers, to the actors, to the energy of the room and what people bring into the room. And with, you know, a lot of writers will allow their actors in rehearsal to improv or ad lib or say something.

Sometimes, like, stuff gets into the script. How often do you allow your actors or how do the dancers participate in the process during the rehearsals? Are they—do you give them freedom and flexibility? They move around, you're like, "Oh, that's good, keep that."

[15:44] Sergio Trujillo: The sacred time that I have in pre-production, those two, three weeks that I spend before a project, that's where I do it. That's where I surround myself with a team of maybe two, three dancers that I've watched. Well, I used to be dancers that I knew that I danced with. Now they're all—I have them all working everywhere else that I can't use them in the room, so I'm starting to look for fresh talent. But it's really—it's in it, and it's made it—I'm attracted to dancers that are very unique, that are fearless about taking your work and bringing their own essence into it. But I dance—when I'm in pre-production, I dance full up. I mean, I'm just like in it. I'm a hundred percent. I'm experimenting, I'm moving.

I have to dance the material because I have to know what it feels like on the dancers. And then, you know, then I start and I play in the room, and you know, I ask the dancers to try this or, "Oh, I like that, let's do it." You know, I love the way you've taken my step and you've made it into that, that's good, but I just—you know, here are the arms that I want. So I'm open to it in pre-production. Again, it's my second time, it's like going to church. It's just like—it is, it's like gospel music, you know, it's just really, really liberating.

[16:57] Sergio Trujillo: When I get in the rehearsal, I build those phrases, I build the vocabulary, I build the map, blueprint. You know, I'm mostly open with actors, you know, because again, I can't impose the way that something feels good on my body on an actor because ultimately what's gonna work is what looks good on that actor and more than anything, what works on the character, whatever character they're portraying. Like John Lloyd Young in Jersey Boy, you know, John was not a dancer, and I spent weeks before we started rehearsals. I mean, John was not a great dancer. I spent four weeks, him and I, before we started rehearsals, and I had ideas about what I wanted it to be. But I actually—every single little thing that Johnny did in the show was choreographed.

Everything, like when he unbuttoned his jacket, when he put it buttoned again, how he grabbed the microphone, where he looked, all of it, the fingers, the position of the fingers, everything. So I had a map before I—and I had a phrase built into it, but it wasn't until I started working with him that—because I knew that it was important for an audience to buy into the fact they were watching Frankie Valli as opposed to Sergio being Frankie Valli for the choreographer. They bought into it so much that he won a Tony Award for that.

[18:06] Ken Davenport: I know well done. Dev Meganoff just reminded me of that. We were auditioning for another show and I said, you know, I'm not sure that we should hire him. You know, he will need so much work, and he said, "Yeah, but just remember that, you know, John Lloyd Young won a Tony Award." In other words, you did it before, you could do it again.

[18:24] Sergio Trujillo: Okay, so you get—you're a little nervous before pre-production, then things get settled a bit, you have your blueprint. How do you feel when the curtain goes up for the first preview and when an audience is about to chime in and how they feel for the first time? Is it an exciting period for you? Nervous again? What's that like?

[18:40] Sergio Trujillo: Again, you know, no matter how many shows I do, I still have the same gut impulse. Like, you can't—I don't think that any of us can predict. I think we can sort of troubleshoot, we can kind of see the number in the room, and you can see it even when we're in tech rehearsals and you do your first stress rehearsal. And you see it when you have that first audience. For me, and I look at something, I'll go, "Oh my God, what is wrong with me?" Or, "Okay, okay, okay, I get it. I think I can do better." There's always—it's always up for me, it's always up for reassessment. You know, I look at the whole, you know, I don't nitpick, but I look at the whole piece on its own. And yeah, no, I—every time, no matter how many shows I've done, is that first time I see the audience that, you know, you just get a different perspective.

It just—like the stakes are higher. I don't know what it is. You know, you're still examining when you're in the room, then when you're in preview, and I mean in tech rehearsals, you're still looking at it, looking at so many different other factors. But then when you have that first audience, you see the canvas. Like, you step away from it for a second for the first time. Then you go back and read, you know, do the touch-ups once you can go in and preview, but it never changes, no matter how many times I've done it.

[19:51] Sergio Trujillo: Yeah, I always think it's the first time that first preview. The show is not about you anymore. It's like you're giving up your baby for adoption after that level. If you get to take it back for rehearsal at the end of the day, but yeah, it's not yours anymore, handing it over. Yeah, sending your kid off to college. I mean, and ultimately, you know, I think, you know, what we do is not—I mean, it's not—you know, we can't be selfish about what we do because it's not the audience. Audiences inform us about, you know, we can have ideas, we can have thoughts, we can have concepts, we think we may think what works really well, but audiences, you know, really—I mean, if we really listen to the audience and paying attention, you know, they will inform us about the work.

[20:28] Ken Davenport: But how do you listen or respond about choreography or shows? Like, what do you do? Do you just get a sense of the energy in the room? Do you actually physically listen to what they're saying or applause? What's the biggest indicator of success or not for you during a preview?

[20:42] Sergio Trujillo: I think ultimately the first and foremost, the thing that's more important is the piece as a whole. You know, that I think one of the things that I'm not a selfish choreographer, where it's like I am the first to cut choreography out of the show if it's not working. If it's just sort of vamping till ready, if it's vamping till—you know, I may fall in love with different sections of a number, but if they're not working, if they're not telling the story, if they're not moving the plot along, I'm the first one to cut it. So again, you know, if I'm looking at this great piece of dance, but at the end of that number, if we haven't learned anything, if we haven't really elevated the storytelling, then, you know, I have to really look at it.

So, and the audience will inform me on that. But it's not about how they applaud, but it's really how I think that—how does it help the narrative? Does it help carry the plot along? Do we learn it? As well as let the audience have joy, you know? Like, do we liberate? Do we give them—do we transport them to a different place? And so, you know, I again, you know, I have to look at the whole piece and look at not just each number nitpicking, but really the piece as a whole and where are we losing the audience and is it maybe because this section is too long? Do we—are we done? You know, is it— is it in choreograph? Is the choreography interesting enough?

[21:57] Ken Davenport: And speaking of looking at the whole piece, are you interested in pursuing the same career path as the Fossies and the Jeromes of being a director as well, director-choreographer in the future? Is that what you—now you seem to conquer dance, okay, now I'm gonna get—is that what's—I know you're doing some already, but is that what's next for you?

[22:17] Sergio Trujillo: I think being a director-choreographer is inevitable for me. When I work with directors like Des McAnuff or Chris Ashley or Michael Greif and Jerry Mitchell, you know, I just think I've noticed this because they're just at the top of their game. But I think for me, it's really understanding the types of shows that I can direct and choreograph and that I want to direct the choreography. And I think for me are those pieces where dance is a big part of the narrative. I think that in the same way that I—one of the things that I want to say when, you know, in terms of moving from a dancer to a choreographer was that, you know, I didn't want to—I wanted to create a freedom of expression again. You know, I didn't want to be regimented by Fosse's work.

I wanted to express myself in my own way. And so as a choreographer, I want to have the creative freedom of expression as a creative force. That means so that I'm not—I can—I don't necessarily have to express what I do or what I can do through dance, but dramatically as well, and how I take a piece, an idea, a story, and guide it under my vision to a really defined specific vision.

[23:28] Sergio Trujillo: So it that you know that is, you know, I've been I've I've done it, I've done it a few times already. Again, you know, I I I want to make sure that you know that I have I I think I'm a great student because I went to school, you know, because I studied, I think there was a part of me that's slightly academic. You know, I feel I think that there are other peers of mine that are gone off and directly courted after, but I don't really want to do it until I feel that I've that I've really studied again, and by by being by collaborating with these great directors, I've learned so much. And it's not just about there's just so much that goes into directing a show and musical.

[24:04] Ken Davenport: And why do you think it is that so many choreographers go on to be such great directors? Like what is it? I was actually thinking earlier today that you know you started out as a dancer, and I I would bet that 99% of all Broadway choreographers started out as dancers, right?

[24:24] Sergio Trujillo: I hope so, yeah. But I don't think that's the case for directors, right? So it's probably not 90%, it's probably you know, 90 or 70% of all directors started as actors or something. But yet a lot of choreographers go on to be directors, and some of Broadway's best that we've ever had. What is it about the choreographic process or that perspective that also allows you to be a great director at the same time?

[24:46] Sergio Trujillo: I mean, when we really think about a musical, you know, when we really think about a musical, I don't know that everyone understands the role of a choreographer in a show of a talented choreographer on a show. Because I feel like there is a misconception about what a choreographer does in a progress show. And I think that you know, it's not just about doing dance numbers and doing dance steps. I mean, I think that a choreographer is like a cinematographer in a movie. And the great directors are those that are are such are so incredibly confident in their craft that they allow a choreographer to really work with them. How does this show move? How do we transition from A to B to C? You know, how does the scene move? How can you, you know, how do we bring the furniture on with some directors that have the freedom to work with my lighting designer about the numbers.

[25:34] Sergio Trujillo: As a matter of fact, my first show that I ever choreographed, which is Mambu King, because I didn't come in, I got to work with Peggy and Jules. And Peggy and Jewels, who are the master I mean, they are like you know, in terms of lighting, you know, when I was working with them, they laid my numbers and I wasn't happy with them. And so I said to Peggy, I was like, Peggy, uh, can we work on this number? And she said, Absolutely, we'll come in tomorrow morning and we'll work on it. So from then on, I got the car blanch that I'm able to have a voice. And you know, because I sort of have a vision about how the numbers, how I see the choreography, you know, the choreography and how I what I what sections I want to be laid, and I want this one back lit, and I don't really need to see that, I need to focus on this.

Already, you know, you're beginning to under you know, you're working with your lighting designer, or I'm working with my costume designer on, or on you know, I don't think these costumes don't work. I need a skirt that just can twirl, can make so that it the turns can be seen. You know, I don't think musically, I don't think I think that if we land this piece of furniture on this can, I think that that would be more it would be musically interesting. Again, because it's it's a musical, you know. It it's it's so we're already beginning to act as a director of the show. You know, we're it it dances, the show must dance, the show must move, the show, if it's well staged, I think the choreographer will have a big hand in it. And so we're already, you know, we're already working on our craft as a director.

[26:53] Sergio Trujillo: Now, great directors, the Chris's, all of those kinds, you know, I haven't worked with some other ones, but these these great directors, they know how to guide their writers. They have a dramaturgical mind, they know how to guide the writers, they figure out how to communicate with them, how to get them because it's really not about just getting to show up. You there's so much work that comes before you even get to the first rehearsal. And that is a relationship between the director and the writer. And that is something that you know I continue to to learn from by watching, by working with these great directors. So that's a craft that you know for me I think is important to learn. And I think young choreographers don't understand that that is a big huge part of it. And again, in the community that understands that.

[27:37] Ken Davenport: So what is great about people like Robinson?

[27:39] Sergio Trujillo: Well, I think Fossey, Bennett, and some of the some of the contemporary rotts right now, but like Casey Nicola, Jeremy Mitchell, who are director choreographers. I think what those guys have done is that they've understood what kind of material they're good at. I think they've honed in on the tone of the shows and the kinds of stories that they know they can tell. And Fossi knew Fosse knew that if he could take a story like Pippin but figure out a concept in a wing into it and how to either he just and it's all it was all all of those stories were dark. All of those stories had a trademark and it's all fossy, but he knew how to take cabaret to charity. You know, they're all they have tonally, they're all the same.

But he and even Susan Stroman as well. Susan Stroman knows how to do that. She knows the kind of stories you can tell, and she was very good at it. So I think he's really figuring out again for me, is understanding for me is I wanna take stories that where dance is a big character, it's a big driving force.

[28:36] Ken Davenport: Such a smart and insightful comment. And it talks about again the business mind of the artist in knowing this is what I'm really good at. So I'm gonna focus on this thing, and that's gonna get me the most success. It's just like you saying I'm gonna go to Toronto. And I think you're so right, because I know so many artists out there that oh, I'm gonna do everything, I'm gonna just do this, this, this. It's actually much better off that you turn down something that you're not right for because you probably won't do a great job at it. This goes for me in producing as well. So very insightful. What what do you think generally is the current state of dance on Broadway right now as opposed to when you started here 30 years ago? How are we doing?

[29:17] Sergio Trujillo: You know, it's it's fierce. I'm very, very excited about what's happening right now. And I think a lot of that has to do with I think what there is this this movement that began with with with dance on television. It began with So You Think You Can Dance, Dancing with the Stars. You know, dance has sort of taken the backseat for a while, but I think that and also what it's done is it's given the inspiration, the accessibility to younger audiences. I mean, I've seen I went to see a my my one of my little nieces is a dancer, and I went to see her dance concert a couple of years ago, and I was blown away by the number of male dancers that were in her dance school. There was a piece that they did where they had 21 boys dancing on stage from the ages of eight to like 21.

And that you don't see that in any dance schools. And that was because they've been watching television now. So I think that also because of social media, there is accessibility to what other people are doing, what other choreographers are doing. And co and dance is is evolving really rapidly. Like the stylistically is moved into this other stratosphere is what the kids are doing, the way they're moving, and there are people that you know sort of turned their back on it because you know they're not going through the training to go into SAD or going to ballet class or studying endless hours in a dance studio. It's a total different approach to dance.

[30:40] Sergio Trujillo: And and so, but people like Andy Blank and Beeler, you know, Andy who's who's who's bringing this sort of fresh vocabulary to Broadway. You know, he's bringing he's sort of figured out a way of taking hip hop but creating his own sense of style, making it accessible for younger audiences. But it's also other younger choreographers are looking at somebody like Andy or even somebody like myself and saying, you know what, I can do that. And so I feel like there is a real there is a freshness to the material, to the to the to the language that the choreographers are bringing to the to the work. I think that there are there is more dance on Broadway. Um at least I'm hoping. So I haven't seen I haven't seen Frozen, but I know Robbie Ashford, he's a good friend of mine, and I know he's gonna put a lot of dance in it.

I'm sure Casey's gonna do a lot of dance and and um mean girls. I'm gonna put a lot of dance in there's a lot of fierce dancing in in summer. What else? I haven't seen I'm looking forward-oh, and your choreographer and and once on this island, who's a who's a concert choreographer who who I've followed for a long time, and she's fierce. So, you know, there is there's a it's a big component where we're we're in a few years a few years ago we had taken a back seat, and you know, I and it's very exciting. I think I think it's uh it's an important time.

[31:52] Ken Davenport: All right, so that will segue perfectly into my uh last question, which is my genie question. So you just talked about how great the state of dance is on Broadway. Um I want you to imagine the genie from Casey Nicola's Aladdin comes to visit you and says, Roger, I want to thank you for your incredible passion for the theater and your dedication to this industry and all the stuff you've done and are going to do, because I have no doubt in my mind personally that you're gonna be one of these director choreographies that we all want to work with. So what is the one thing if this genie gave you one wish? What's the one thing you'd ask this genie to wish away from Broadway? What's the one thing that drives you crazy, gets you upset, makes you angry, just oh, if only this were different, Broadway would be a much better place. What would you ask the genie?

[32:41] Sergio Trujillo: I say genie, build more theaters. I think that there is uh an unfortunate lack of space for us to be able to showcase the talents and the works of of other less fortunate producers that are not able to raise all of the capital that need to be raised for the multi million dollar musicals that are smaller musicals. I yeah, I mean, there's such competition. And now with with the big, you know, with the the big shows that are gonna be around for even longer. I mean, shows are staying around, I mean are are are staying you know running for longer periods of time.

[33:14] Ken Davenport: Well, I uh would agree with that. As a producer with a line of shows that are looking to come in, uh I think that's a very good wish. Broadway is getting bigger, so we should expand.

[33:23] Sergio Trujillo: I mean, it is. I mean it's uh it's a billion dollar one point what six two billion? Is that the those are not running numbers around? I mean, the last year 1.62 billion dollars so I don't understand why the city's not investing in each time one one of these big apartment complexes or buildings goes up I mean I feel like it should it should be sort of the city should invest in what we do I think I mean if it's one of I mean it is it is such important parts part of the of the of the tourist attraction I think that the city should get back.

[33:51] Sergio Trujillo: Well you've heard that all you politicians out there listening or for those of you listening forward that to your New York City or New York State political leader thank you so much for being here it's really terrific having you. You're wonderful, thank you. I'm very proud of you as well with your success.

[34:07] Sergio Trujillo: Thank you and thanks to all of you for listening we will see you next time this spring go see summer and go see jersey boys now off Broadway.

[34:15] Ken Davenport: Yes yes absolutely thanks everybody thanks again for listening and just a reminder if you want to check out that webinar on co-producing on Broadway if it's something you're interested in learning more about drop me an email at Ken at the producer's perspective dot com that's Ken at the producers perspective dot com we'll send you a link. Have a great day Broadway here I come.