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[0:00] Ken Davenport: I wanna be a producer with a hit show on Broadway. I wanna be a producer. Hello, producers, prospective podcast listeners. Welcome back to the show. Curtains going back up. Okay, things are getting real now. Uh if there were a ranking of the most powerful people on Broadway, and there are, I actually published one myself several years ago. The guy sitting across from me would rank right up there towards the top of that list. He is one of the few, the proud, the theater owners on Broadway. And his name is Jordan Roth, the president of Jujamcyn Theaters. Welcome, Jordan.

[0:37] Jordan Roth: Hi.

[0:38] Ken Davenport: What I love with quite an introduction. Very, very true. And what I love about Jordan is that despite that power ranking, if you will, he remains one of the nicest and most approachable players on the Broadway scene. Now, Jujamcyn may be in numbers the smallest of the three theater chains, but it has some of the biggest hits on Broadway. Current tenants include Tony Award winners, Book of Mormon, Gentleman's Guide to Love and Murder, Kinky Boots, and of course Jersey Boys, that little show, and the upcoming Something's Rotten, which is gonna take residency right below where we're sitting, right?

[1:11] Jordan Roth: Actually, quite literally below us.

[1:13] Ken Davenport: Yeah, Jordan's office is literally right above the St. James Theater. I love that about the theater owners having their theater offices right there. Uh and above the store.

[1:22] Jordan Roth: That's right.

[1:23] Ken Davenport: That's right. Uh now all that running those buildings and taking care of all those customers would be plenty for a theater owner to do, but Jordan has also done a whole bunch of other stuff, including founding the charity website, Givenik, which if you don't know allows patrons to buy tickets to their shows at a discount. And then a donation is made on their behalf to their favorite charity. He's the host of Broadway Talks at the 92nd Street Y. He's a regular commentator on Morning Joe on MSNBC, and most recently founded this terrifically fun website called Culturalist.com, which allows you to create the coolest list on any subject. I created one about like the top ten, my top ten favorite musical theater moments on Broadway.

[2:03] Jordan Roth: It was so—

[2:03] Ken Davenport: And what was your number one?

[2:08] Jordan Roth: Oh my number one? Now I can't remember. Although I—

[2:09] Ken Davenport: Okay, well we'll all have to go to Culturalist and search. One of them was the moment from Falsettos at the end of the show, which of course Jordan just announced he was producing. And before he was a theater owner, Jordan was a producer, giving us such hits as going way back to the Donkey Show, and the coolest production of Rocky Horror I think there has ever been at Circle in the Square. Okay, so let's start in with some questions. We'll go to the really hard stuff. Where did you first get the theater bug? Where'd you fall in love with this crazy art form?

[2:42] Jordan Roth: Um I've always loved the theater. Uh I used to go to the theater with my parents, with my family, and I think, you know, my story is not much different than I think everybody's who makes a life in the theater, is that at some point we sat in a theater and the lights went down and we were changed. And that was true for me. It was always true for me, really. Um my earliest memories are in the theater.

[3:12] Ken Davenport: Was there a show that did it? Like for me, I was raised on the theater. I as a kid I was an actor and the whole bit, but I considered myself part of the lame's generation. And in 1987, when I saw the National Touring Company, I was changed exactly like you said. Was there a show for you that did it?

[3:29] Jordan Roth: Um I remember the original production of La Cage. And um I had I was like seven, eight, and I was totally dazzled, and I had a chance to visit backstage. And I have a very vivid memory of sort of shyly hanging around the doorway to the La Cage dressing room and peering around all the walls at all of the wigs and costumes that were stacked and racked, and very specifically focusing on the whip. Right? Remember the whip?

[4:12] Ken Davenport: Of course.

[4:14] Jordan Roth: The famous whip. Um, and it was coiled up and hung on a hook on the wall. And it was the first time that I remember consciously connecting the on-stage life of a thing that I had seen to its offstage existence. And that connection, I think, looking back, I don't know what was um conscious for me at that moment, but looking back, I see that as an early seminal moment of starting to think about a production as a million little pieces, and the way in which all of these things that are real, physical, human, offstage, turn into magic when they are put together in just the right way, at just the right moment by just the right group of people on stage.

[5:15] Ken Davenport: And you were and you were seven. Having these deep thoughts.

[5:17] Jordan Roth: I thought that last week.

[5:20] Ken Davenport: Uh well, in fairness, I did say I don't know how much of that was conscious, but I do remember I remember that as a moment. Uh and I think I can trace back um you know, you have these moments of connections, moments where something makes sense to you and you don't even know yet perhaps what it is or why, but you know that there is a path and you begin. And what was the beginning later on in flash forward ten year fifteen years or so? You go to college, and when do you decide I want to do this as a career, and what was the first step you took towards that career?

[6:02] Jordan Roth: Yeah. So my the way that I participated in the theater growing up was as a performer, which I think again is how most people do because there's not a third grade theater owner. Um had there been I would have been right there. Um but no, you know, you're excited about the theater as a young person and you go on stage, and you either continue to do that, or you figure out that the theater is the space you want to be in, but performing is not the role you want to be doing, or you figure out this is not where my life is and I will be a very happy audience member, hopefully. Um so for me, I was performing all through grade school and high school and college, and in college I figured out that I really didn't want to be an actor.

Um and for me, I connect that realization over time with coming out. I came out sophomore year of college, and I think for me, and I don't connect this with anybody else's reason for performing, but what I think it filled for me. Um as I became more and more comfortable with my own voice, with my own body, with my own self, I became um less and less interested in being somebody else and taking on another role. Those were very hard-fought places of comfort um and my fascination, my escape, my exploration uh became more about my real offstage physical being, vocal being, mental being, than it was on stage.

[8:19] Ken Davenport: You took off two costumes in a way. That's very interesting.

[8:22] Jordan Roth: Yes, I think I would say that. Um, or I think I might say I became less interested in costume as a concept. Um, or I don't know if I want to say less interested, because God knows I love a costume. Um, but it wasn't a cage that you were that was that several moment and continues to be. Let's just say it. Um, no, but I think it became it served a different purpose for me. And I think one of the things in our lives that I try for is being deliberate and thoughtful about what we are doing when and why, what purpose it serves for us, and being aware that as we change these um the things we do change because they fill us in different ways, and sometimes there are moments to let them go. And that's what happened for me.

I of course still loved the theater, but started to think about where else I might explore it. And very soon after college, I produced my first show, which became the Donkey Show. Um I didn't say I want to be a producer, I didn't say I am a producer, I just was interested in this show, and I wanted to make it happen, and I did.

[9:57] Jordan Roth: And I think I talk about that a lot when I talk to people who are either beginning their process of a career in the theater or transitioning, which I think a lot of us do, right? You and that's part of what's wonderful about a life in the theater is there are so many ways you can come at it, and they don't all have to be the same way throughout your whole career, or at least I think that is something we should offer each other that ability. And but what I what I for me was significant and what I think can be helpful for people as they think about it is calling your shot can be hard. This is a business of a lot of pressure, and so much of the pressure is from ourselves. And if we can think about how do we are there any elements of that pressure that we can remove and just do the work?

And for me, I felt like saying, I'm a producer, and now I'm gonna go find a show to produce, was calling your shot in a way that I didn't I didn't even know if that's what I wanted to do. I wasn't saying I'm a producer, I was saying I am doing a show called The Donkey Show. That's it. It's as far as I had gotten. And I never I don't think any of us expected it to run as long as it did. So that part of my story is not prescriptive. Um but the trying it, the figuring out that this is a show that I want to do, I want to have this role in it, let's do it. That's as far as you need to get.

[11:42] Ken Davenport: Now, what do we learn from that experience? Do we want to do it again? And if so, how should it be different? And that was the beginning. Tell me, tell me a little bit about what attracted you to the Donkey Show, because of course, watching some of the things you do now, I see a lot of Donkey Show DNA and the decisions that you make now in a much bigger position. Tell me about what it was that attracted you then that you still are like, oh, that excites me now, and totally fuse Donkey Show energy into Broadway.

[12:14] Jordan Roth: Totally. I love that notion of Donkey Show energy. I take that with me. Um I loved that the Donkey Show was powered by the audience's energy. It was it literally felt like a general. If you could imagine like a group of people turning, turning all the wheels to make literal power, and that power sparking as it goes, goes through the tubes, and literally is what is fueling these actors and this story and this experience. That's what it felt like. And that's what I wanted to feel like as an audience member. I wanted to feel necessary. I wanted to feel like my presence here was required that we that we all have to be here, or this thing doesn't happen. And that feeling is very much the DNA that I think about as we create shows and um welcome shows into our theaters. And I think, you know, very excitingly, there were a lot of us on that show very early in our careers, who each of us in different ways have continued to draw on that DNA.

[13:44] Jordan Roth: Certainly you see it in Diane's work, Diane Paulus, who was our director, and Randy Weiner who wrote it and has continued to create these amazing nightclub experiences, theatrical nightlife explorations, and certainly in Kevin Adams' lighting and Scott Pask's set design. It was, I think, a really seminal moment for a lot of us in our thinking about what the theater is and how we want to feel as audience members and as collaborators.

[14:26] Ken Davenport: I remember sitting in the audience of Hair and looking at the program and seeing Hair, which was at the Hirschfeld.

[14:34] Jordan Roth: Yes.

[14:34] Ken Davenport: And produced by you, directed by Diane, and going, "Look, the Donkey Show crew has grown up, and look at what they're doing on Broadway now."

[14:44] Jordan Roth: It was a very exciting moment.

[14:45] Ken Davenport: Well, let's flash forward a little bit. We're gonna go back to your past in a second, but let's talk a little bit about now your day-to-day job. Now, tell me, it's very easy, I think, for the world to sit back and go, "Oh, those theater owners sitting up there in their offices on top of the theaters just controlling Broadway with their puppet strings." But tell me literally, what is a day of a theater owner like? How do you spend most of your day? What goes into the day in the life of a theater owner?

[15:14] Jordan Roth: One of the things that I love about what I do is I don't have a normal day. And that feeling starts with the feeling we create for our team members, everybody up here in the office, everybody at each of our theaters. So creating that feeling is a combination of a million different little pieces, decisions, priorities that all of us, not just me, but all of us make. And that requires a lot of deliberate focus every day. So that's a big part of what I do. And happily, a big part of what I do is also connected to each of our shows, whether it be a long-running show, a new show that's coming in, or perhaps a future show that's a year, two, three years down the road, and being connected to and a part of those processes in different ways.

You know, my relationship to each show is very different depending on what the show is and where it is in its life cycle and who's involved, but for me, a special relationship with each one of them, and that's a big part of my day as well.

[17:16] Jordan Roth: So I sometimes refer to the theater owners as the St. Peter's of Broadway, in that they decide what—

[17:19] Ken Davenport: I don't think you've ever said that to my face.

[17:19] Jordan Roth: Yeah, no, but here it goes. Here it goes. That they decide what gets in and what doesn't. Now, it's obviously very easy again for me to say that on a blog and not to your face, but—

[17:32] Ken Davenport: Yeah, well, come on in.

[17:40] Jordan Roth: Well, that's the thing. And when I say something like that, I know that you're in a very difficult position of having to, and you know this, it's that like you curate the art form in a way. Because what's done on Broadway literally is then done all over the world. So something like Falsettos is done and needs to be done again to remind people, because now there will be thousands of productions of Falsettos all over the world because it's done here. So you're responsible for curating the art and the message of artists, which is I think the reason why we all got into this business. At the same time, you have five big buildings that you have to keep running, keep people employed, and there's a business of Broadway.

So the question is, how do you manage that balance? Talk about art and commerce. There's no one who has that weight on their shoulders more than a theater owner. So when you have to choose what show to put in or whatnot, what goes through your mind when you make those choices? With all of us Broadway producers clamoring for a theater today, right? There's a line down the block; I pass it on my way in. How do you make that?

[18:47] Jordan Roth: Dear podcast listeners, that was hyperbole.

[18:49] Ken Davenport: Yes, it was, I admit it.

[18:51] Jordan Roth: But there could be. If I said there was a line and he was giving out a theater, there would be about five minutes. So how, what goes into your decision-making process? That's my long time.

[18:59] Jordan Roth: So I think a couple of things; I hear a couple of things in what you're asking. The first is I love living on the nexus of art and commerce. And I think, and it's not just theater owners, I think a lot of people, most people in working in commercial theater, live on that nexus in some way. And figuring out where that balance is part of what keeps us coming back every day. These are very tough questions, and when you hit it just right, you feel like you are connecting with audiences and saying something that matters; it's exhilarating. So, what goes into the decisions? I think about three buckets, three areas of ideas when I'm thinking about a show. The first is, is it uniquely theatrical? Does it make sense of the fact that it is live?

Back to our Donkey Show DNA. Do we, the audience, have to be there to experience this? And that I think is really about the project of theater. Does it make, does this show use what is unique and therefore valuable about the theatrical form? Because that's where we need to be. If you can, if everything about what you're putting on stage can be filmed, do it on film. That's cool; we love film. But if we're coming to one room at one time of day, which is a highly inefficient mode of storytelling distribution, there has to be a really great reason. And that reason should be not despite the fact that we are there, but because we are there. We are there as a community. We are there as a group of strangers that at some point are transformed into a community called the audience.

The fact that you are up on that stage in the same breathing space that we are in, that is why this thing is special and I have to be there. So, and I think there are lots of reasons, lots of ways in which creative teams answer that question. Lots of different ways, but we need an answer. And we hope it's compelling.

[21:44] Jordan Roth: The second, does it matter? Does this have to exist in the world? Do we need this? And that is not to sound heavy. Joy has to exist in the world; laughter has to exist in the world; we need that. But if we're doing laughter, I really hope we are doing gut-bustingly funny, not mildly amusing. And that for me speaks to the responsibility and the understanding that our stages are scarce resources. And as you say, if we are putting a show on this stage, there are several other shows that we are not putting on that stage. And so the show that is getting put on that stage should matter. In some way, at least that is the goal. The third is, is it gonna sell tickets? Is it commercial? We are, as you point out, the commercial theater.

That's part of the project. As an aside, I would argue that all theater is commercial. Whether it is whether you are exchanging just your time or exchanging your time and your money, that is an exchange. Both are exchanges of commercial, a commercial exchange. And again, have to be there. The theater, that project, that piece is not complete without your presence. I need you to complete this show. Give me your time, give me your money, or give me both. Doesn't matter. And I think on the profit for profit, that's just who keeps the money at the end. That's not a fundamental distinction. So to me, theater in general is a project of commerce. That's an aside. We'll get back to we're selling tickets.

Those are the three buckets. So there you have the two out of three; we're doing great. Three out of three, home run. It's the Jordan Roth three bucket challenge, if you will, to choose a show. And just for the record, again, your theaters are something Rod's about to open, but the other four have Best Musical winners in them. All of which except for one was preceded you. Right, Jersey Boys was before you, but all three were under your watch, which is really incredible. So this is, there's something to this for sure.

[24:37] Ken Davenport: Speaking of you, you took the reins here in 2009, correct?

[24:43] Jordan Roth: Is that about right? So it's only been about five years. And at the time, I wrote in the blog that I wrote when it was announced that you were, and I'm sure you still are, the only theater owner with a Facebook page.

[24:54] Ken Davenport: I remember that.

[24:55] Jordan Roth: And you linked my Facebook page.

[24:57] Ken Davenport: I did; you probably spiked some likes, or hopefully you did.

[25:00] Jordan Roth: I love it. So my question is, how obviously, you know, you are the youngest of the men, and I say that very deliberately, who are the heads of the other theater chains here. How has your age changed the way or made it more interesting, challenging, exciting for you as you entered the world back then?

[25:22] Jordan Roth: You know, it's just part of who I am. It's part of it; it is one of the things about me that informs how I see the world, which is not better or worse than anybody else's. It's just one of the parts of me. And I think, you know, we're all the result of the times we grow up in, the times we come of age in, the times we raise our families in. You called yourself part of the Le Miz generation, right? That was what was happening for you in your world, and it became seminal. And so I think identifying and honoring those things that form each of our thinking is really important.

[26:19] Ken Davenport: And you continue following that Facebook analogy, if you will, you continue to get yourself out there in a whole bunch of different ways. You have a fantastic Instagram, which everyone should follow. You do For your sunset and backstage needs. You do Morning Joe. You do all these other things, including Culturalist, which I want to talk about next. And you don't have to do any of this stuff, right? I mean, let's face it, you could just sit here and run theaters and do all this stuff, but you continue to invent and innovate. And my first question is why? Like what Culturalist came to you? How and why did you do it? And what's it about? Tell us.

[26:59] Jordan Roth: So Culturalist was something I really wanted to use, and it didn't exist. So we made it. And I don't mean to say that flippantly. It's been really hard work, and we have a wonderful team who are building it every day.

[27:21] Jordan Roth: It is a living, breathing thing, just like a show. But I think, you know, it's the same impulse of creating theater. You want something to exist that doesn't exist. And so you start taking steps to make that exist. And I think so, so what Culturalist is a way of talking about the things you are passionate about through top ten lists. The list as a form, the top ten in particular, is so ubiquitous, so sticky, so fun, such a mode of conversation now, and only getting more and more so. But at that time, and still I felt like wasn't hadn't been democratized, right? Twitter democratized the short form. Uh before that, all the blogging technology democratized long form, Instagram democratized image making and distribution, but the list was in many ways still the purview of just a few.

And I for me it was a very it was a very personal moment of seeing a list, a published list, and thinking, I don't think that's the list. That's not my that wouldn't be my list, which PS is like the number one reaction to a list is no no, that's not right, let me tell you what's right. And that's why we built Cultural List. I wanted to have a place for all of us to publish our lists equally. And then as we started to dig into it, I actually thought more just as interesting as my list or your list or her list or his list is our list, the collective list, the aggregated list. And so what the system does is you can come on and make a list of, as you said, your top ten best Broadway musical moments of all time.

That's a very personal list for you. I would make my list, she would make her list, he would make his list, and in real time, our system is aggregating the results. So we are in addition to being able to look at your list and my list individually, we can look at the collective list at our list, which is a really fascinating way of getting the pulse, of looking at what do we all think. One of my favorite lists is top ten worst things that I don't like that everyone else seems to love. Okay? Let that sink in for a second. And this was a very start. This list was started very early, and again, all of our lists are user-generated. So the titles included, so anyone can come on and say, I want to, I really want to dig into the top ten best whatever.

I'm gonna start the conversation if it doesn't already exist at this point. Lots of conversations exist, so you can just add to it. But if it doesn't, you begin it. So this list started very early on in our life, and I thought I think this is a genius list. I don't know how many other people are gonna add on to it, but I love that this one person started it, and I have such a sense of who she is. Um, it became quite popular, and what I love about it when you look at the aggregate is what is this title saying? Something that I don't like that everyone else seems to love. What does that mean? I'm alone, I must be alone because everybody seems to go crazy over these things, and I don't, and I'm alone until you look at the aggregate of hundreds of people's lit people's lists who all say selfies, number one, worst thing I don't like that everyone else seems to love. You'll have to go on the site to see the rest of the list.

[31:28] Ken Davenport: Yeah, I certainly will.

[31:30] Jordan Roth: So it's for me been a fascinating and really exciting uh project to have so many people come and fill this vessel with this platform with their passions, their opinions, exploring together, learning together, debating together, and it is for me the same impulse. All of the things that you mentioned that I'm passionate about are part of, in their own ways, the culture conversation. I think that is what we do in the theater. We put something on stage that catalyzes a conversation. It is first a conversation between artists and audience. It is then a conversation among audience. Morning Joe, again, another way of having the conversation. Twitter, Instagram, another way of having the conversation, a very a visual way, uh a short form way.

These are all ways in which we um explore what we think individually and collectively. And that's what culturalist is too. When you think about what I love about culturalists, is the audience is the generator for the entertainment, just like the Donkey Show. You can see the Donkey Show DNA in really everything you do, which is very, very exciting, giving so much power to that audience, which I love. Now I believe in the audience. I do. Um, I believe in in in all of us as a collective, and we have such great potential to create, to make, generate together.

[33:15] Ken Davenport: Now, obviously, you've been a producer. Now you work with a lot of producers. So what perspective do you have now in terms of what do you think of modern-day producer? What are the best characteristics a modern-day producer should have to make it today, to produce a successful show? What how has it changed? If you could create the ideal model producer. I won't ask you to name names of your favorite or your least favorites unless you want to.

[33:40] Jordan Roth: Well, I I would say I think, you know, we have wonderful producers, passionate, smart producers working today, and it's I think a very exciting time in the theater. You know, a great producer holds in their hands the impossible tension of being at the same time a person of total blind faith and clear-eyed realism. These are two things that should not ever go together in one being, or perhaps even in a group of beings, and yet they must. Producer has to think that the truly impossible and in many cases insane is completely possible, doable, and we're gonna do it. The producer is the first person to believe and the last person to believe, despite every truly, every reasonable reason to not. And that's a glorious thing that people can look at empty space and say, in a very short amount of time, there's going to be a whole world right there.

Crazy thing. And there is, and there will be. Because they say so. Because it they say it will, and so it will. And you make people believe, you make people join and give you their hearts and their time and their brains and their souls to make this thing with you that has no business existing until it does. Isn't that amazing? And at the same time, at the very same time, having the clear-headed focus to look at reality, to look at the challenges, to face them clearly and consistently, to understand what the audience is telling you, what the math is telling you, what the team is telling you, and make focused, smart, wise decisions based on that, and be the person who can see the reality at the same time that you are the person who can dream the fantasy. That's an amazing dichotomy tension to hold in one brain. And so I think those who do it and those who want to do it, God bless you. We need you.

[36:35] Ken Davenport: Okay, one last question. I want you to imagine that the theater gods come down and say, whether that's David Merrick or the ancient Greeks or whoever, and say those are my choices. That's right. That's it. The last go-to, maybe the last guy. Cool. And they come down and say, Jordan, you you've done a fantastic job in getting the hold of this industry and starting to pull it into the modern day. We want to give you a gift. I want you to imagine if you could change one thing about the theater, just one thing, the gods of the theater would change it in the snap of a finger or blink of an eye. What would be the one thing that you would change?

[37:19] Jordan Roth: I I I feel like this should be my next TEDx Broadway. I feel like I'm being set up. Um it can be specific, it can be broad, just one thing. It could be bathrooms.

[37:35] Ken Davenport: More more space in my theater so the women have more room to go to the bathroom because you can't just add on a wing to the g to the sanctuary.

[37:42] Jordan Roth: True. True. Um I don't mean to dodge your question, but I'm going to. Um, because I really don't think in terms of I don't think in terms of like there's this thing that we if only this thing. And of course, this thing can't happen. Um, you know, you bring up the bathrooms. Great example. This is a really human issue, right? This touches every person, every person who comes to the theater will can tell you the bathroom situation. That's not a good thing. Um, and yes, the reality is in our in the uh physical spaces as they exist, um, adding more bathrooms is prohibitive. That doesn't mean that we have to live forever with the notion that going to getting to the bathroom at intermission is going to be a negative.

So, you know, we've we've thought a lot about what's really the issue. What's the anxiety? The anxiety is you're not going to get back in time. Right? That's what you're worried about. So, yes, one way would be to add more stalls so that you'll get back quicker. Another way would be to tell you as you're on the line, don't worry. We know what time we we we're watching the clock. You're gonna get back in time. Don't worry. Feel different. So my point is there are a lot of things that I think we can continue to improve, continue to iterate on, continue to think about as a way to uh expand, increase, uh innovate on the experience of coming to theater and making theater and working in the theater.

All three areas that we think a lot about. Um, but I don't look at any one of them as uh uh impossible or insurmountable. You just have to find your way in. And that's why I personally was so thrilled to see back in 2009 that uh you were heading up this organization and taking, as I said before, Broadway into the next several decades.

[40:14] Ken Davenport: Uh thank you, Jordan, for doing this for us. Thank you for being here for Broadway for continuing to push innovation in an industry that desperately needs it and embracing it with such a positive attitude. Do check out Culturalists, it's a ton of fun. Uh and something's rotten opening downstairs. And once again, do subscribe to the podcast. It's the producersperspective.com. Thanks again, Jordan. And we will see all of you next time. Thank you all.