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[0:00] Bobby Steggert: I'm Bobby Steggert, and this is The Quiet Part Out Loud.

[0:15] Bobby Steggert: What is intelligence? For much of human history, it's been defined by one's aptitude for either logic or mathematics. The STEM subjects you get assessed for through standardized testing. The IQ tests merely test for these capacities along with things like memory and processing speed, leaving out all other aspects of the human experience. Believe it or not, it was not until 1983 that the work of Harvard psychologist Howard Gardner changed the conversation by introducing the concept of multiple intelligence. It seems obvious now to a more modern ear, but his study suggested that there were other forms of intelligence that are of equal importance to our logical or mathematical capacities. Of course, there's linguistic intelligence, which allows us to write and communicate and learn our language as well as other languages.

There's musical intelligence, which allows us to identify tone, pitch, and rhythm, and to appreciate, compose, and perform music. There's bodily kinesthetic, think athletes and dancers. There's spatial intelligence, think architects and builders who actually understand geometry. And the least appreciated of all, there's emotional intelligence. Interpersonal, which allows us to understand the intentions, motivations, and desires of others. And intrapersonal, which allows us to do the very same for ourselves. So what does it mean when your intellect allows you an enormous capacity for almost all of these forms of intelligence put together? Artists are prime examples of these special people, and my guest this week is one of the most intelligent people in all aspects of the word that I know.

Ana Nogueira is an actor, a playwright, and currently a screenwriter, having recently been tasked with the enormous responsibility of penning the new Supergirl movie, the newest DC Universe edition. She's one of my favorite people to talk to. I don't know how else to describe it, but she makes my brain feel like a bowl of Rice Krispies, a million little synapses crackling. And as you'll hear in the following conversation, the intelligence required of a writer is very complex, from the big picture understanding of structural storytelling to the minutiae of the inner world of each character. What makes our exploration of intellect all the more rich is that we both discover a more complicated relationship to intelligence than I would have imagined.

You'll witness various parts of Ana come forward, some that own and celebrate her capacities, and some that are filled with doubt. We also discover something similar about our way with words, how in our mutual childhoods, mine felt like an uncomfortable exposure of my queerness, and hers as easily minimized in a private school setting where traditional ideas of intelligence were centered. Ana's ultimate point, and one that I keep thinking about in the days after, is that perhaps, to be an artist, we must both wholly believe in our intelligence, and also seriously doubt it. After all, how else could we truly portray humanity without the entire spectrum?

[3:38] Bobby Steggert: Ana, this is what I have to say to start. I have the great honor of knowing your daughter. What's so special about her, you meet her, and what's amazing about her is how deeply observant she is. She takes in the people in the room in this depthful, complicated way that you just really don't expect from a baby. And while that makes her special, when I imagine you as a baby, what I imagine is you speaking in full sentences.

[4:15] Ana Nogueira: Have you ever talked to my parents? This is the lore of my birth from my father. And this is lore. It is not true. It is that I came out, and I looked at him, and I smiled. Now babies do not smile until eight weeks or something, but generally a smile before that is just gas. Maybe that's what he saw. But my parents, they like to say that I had this sort of formed quality as a baby.

[4:52] Ana Nogueira: Similar to Faye.

[4:54] Bobby Steggert: Yes, similar to Faye. And yet I imagine Faye to be stoic and silent into her young childhood. Were you talking up a storm?

[5:02] Ana Nogueira: Yes, I was talking up a storm, and now Faye is talking up a storm. Faye is going through a whole explosion that is very exciting. Faye is not yet two, and she'll sit next to a kid on the playground and start singing her Do Re Mi from The Sound of Music. It's so sweet. It makes me melt, but I'm also like, oh, the other kids are maybe not going to be able to have done my best level of musical theater appreciation. I think I was talking up a storm. I think I've always been very chatty, very expressive. I think that I love words, and I love communicating, and I think I have a skill with it, which probably just comes from a great deal of practicing, because I really like words. I really like writing. I really like talking. And I think I was probably like that at a young age.

[6:03] Bobby Steggert: Paint me the picture. What I do know is that your father is a child psychologist.

[6:06] Ana Nogueira: Yes, psychiatrist. He gives the drugs. I think when people hear that my dad was a psychiatrist, so often people go, oh, God, what was that like? Because they imagine that I was being analyzed from a young age, and it's not really the case. I think of my parents as both very warm and very curious people. And my sister as well. I have an older sister who's six years older. My mom comes from a big Irish-Italian family. She's one of nine kids. And my dad is from Brazil, and his whole family still lives there. I would say that particularly with my mom's family, who I saw much more, because there were so many of them, and they lived in Philadelphia. It didn't take a 10-hour plane ride to get to them.

I would say that there's very little passive aggression in any of my families. There's a lot of expression. And if someone is annoyed, if someone is happy, everything is talked about and processed. And so while my parents, from a therapy point of view, were never analyzing me, I do think that they were always getting us to talk and express and be honest. This is such a cliché, but we always had dinner together. We always, all four of us sat at the dinner table and talked. My dad would take a dinner break from seeing patients and come home, and we would all sit together. And that's what it was. We would talk about our days and process our days, and it all felt very normal. And then you'd see other people's families, and you realize there's all this unsaid stuff in so many families. For better or for worse, there's just not unsaid stuff in my family. Everything is said.

[7:49] Bobby Steggert: I really get the vibe from your mom's family side. One half of my family is a very raucous, Catholic family. I have seven aunts and uncles, and nothing goes unsaid in that side of the family. What is the Brazilian vibe in terms of the other half of the family?

[8:08] Ana Nogueira: I would say it's warmth all over. There's not a lot of cold intellectuals. But the Brazilian side is complicated because we didn't really grow up speaking Portuguese, especially my sister and I. My mom learned Portuguese when she met and fell in love with my dad. She went and took classes. And we speak little bits here and there, but I really didn't speak it as a kid because it's just hard. It's hard to make your kids bilingual. My sister's six years older than me, so I think they maybe tried with her a little bit more. But by the time I came along, we all speak English very well. Why would we try to complicate things? Brazil is a very nonverbal place for me. My sister and I actually spoke about this because I learned a little more Portuguese when I was older, when I was in my 20s. I took the time myself to learn.

I was preparing for a trip that we were all taking. I said, I'm going to do it. I'm going to practice. I did. I was pretty proud of how I did. My sister said she was going to do it too. We worked hard. My sister said, though, we don't have a personality in this country. She said, I feel like I sound unintelligent. My sister is very smart. She struggled so much with that. No one has ever asked me this before, but it is interesting that I consider myself somebody who's verbal and expressive and loves to communicate. And then there's this whole sort of half of my life where communication is about small, simple sentences and context clues and mistakes. Trying to communicate without using words and without your sense of humor, all that stuff that has trouble really translating. And so there are these people that we feel very close to. They're our family. Yet there's this huge part of us that I think does not really cross over when we're all together.

[10:06] Bobby Steggert: The whole frame of this conversation is that language, for you, is one of your superpowers. So it must be so interesting to feel handicapped in that way.

[10:13] Ana Nogueira: It is. And it's also, like you said, say, and be stoic sometimes. And I think it pulls me into that part of myself, this sort of more shy, introverted part of myself, which definitely exists. And I think people are always surprised when I'm a little shyer than they would expect. But there, that's who I am. I'm just a little bit more pulled back.

[10:39] Bobby Steggert: The other thing I'm really interested in asking you about family, I didn't grow up in a house of ideas. We didn't speak about larger concepts of the world, let alone psychological concepts. Did your dad's expertise bring ideas into the home?

[10:59] Ana Nogueira: I think so. It's funny because I think the term intellectual has, like I said, a cold connotation to it, a detached connotation to it. And so when I think of intellectual families, I think of people who don't deal in ceilings. And I think of people who maybe are trying to one-up each other or something, which we don't quite have. So it's like that word has all these connotations that I don't relate to. And then it has so many connotations that I do relate to. So my mom also went to a psychoanalytic school, but she didn't end up practicing. So they definitely get along in this way. And they're both curious people and readers. And then my sister is six years older and very smart and a very good student and hard worker, but also very curious. I was like a lover of fiction. And I would say a couple of things.

[12:02] Ana Nogueira: My parents loved Joseph Campbell. And they would always bring up Joseph Campbell, which is not even anything I've ever read. Is that like the hero's journey? Yeah, the hero's journey. They would always say Joseph Campbell's sad or whatever and they stopped doing it. There's something I remember from when I was very young. I remember seeing Joseph Campbell's books. They don't talk about him now, but it's interesting to me that they would talk about this stuff and then I ended up being a writer and having almost an innate understanding of structure and movie structure, which has been taken over by the hero's journey, which whether that's a great thing or not is debatable, but this sort of way of seeing life in a way that isn't confused with fearing but also has structure and ideas to it was like very much part of my life.

And then I also think that when you're dealing with people who understand psychology, you just start thinking about your life a little bit differently. I think from an early age, your life is something that can be expressed and observed and not just experienced.

[13:14] Bobby Steggert: What do you remember learning to express young?

[13:16] Ana Nogueira: I never didn't express anything. I can't think of a time when I was not fully free to be deeply sad, hurt, or any of these big ugly feelings that you have when you're very young or especially when you're a teenager and you're cuckoo. I cannot think of a time when I felt like it wasn't safe to express those things.

[13:42] Bobby Steggert: That's remarkable.

[13:44] Ana Nogueira: I think it is, and it's not like I was met. This is another thing in terms of the like having this therapist appearances. I wasn't met always with the cool calm. I wasn't met with like, "All right, that's great, whatever." I was met with a mom who was yelling back at me. Like that was it. It had that passion and all of that coming at us from both directions, but there was never a feeling of these feelings, these thoughts, this point of view is unsafe or too much. I think the world does enough of that. If I have a feeling of I'm too much, I can't express something, I would never say I got that from my family. I think that is the world coming in.

[14:37] Bobby Steggert: Being a mom, I think there's something to remind yourself of that you can do things so well and the world is still going to teach your kids certain lessons or make them uncomfortable with certain things and you can't totally save them from whatever shit is coming down the line in terms of the freedom in your household, whether it was emotional or intellectual. When you started to feel connected and aware of your intellect, your intelligence, your aptitude, how do you remember it being something that helps you and how do you remember it ever being something that limited you in any way?

[15:18] Ana Nogueira: Yeah, I think what's so sticky about this topic for me is that there's something confusing about intellect and like school. I think I even talking about this, I have like a certain level of not shame but like imposter syndrome because I am very much. I'm not that smart or whatever. I'm not one of those people and I know a lot of people in my life would be shocked that this is even what we're talking about.

[15:51] Bobby Steggert: Why does that part want to minimize you? What is that part concerned with?

[15:56] Ana Nogueira: I think I just, I see. I think there are different kinds of intelligence and I have a lot of confidence in certain abilities of mine and I am not confident in other areas. I found in school, I went to a private school. I went to the same private school for 14 years from pre-kindergarten to senior year and I found in school that my kind of intelligence was not always valued or considered special in any way. I also wasn't like an excellent student, but that's more my personality. I'm like not interested in being an excellent student. I just don't need a good grade to get a good grade. I'm more like, am I interested in this? Is this subject matter juicy to me or whatever? And so I always felt like the kind of intelligence that I feel like I do have was not taken seriously or something in terms of it being connected to the liberal arts and not like hard science or math.

[17:02] Bobby Steggert: Exactly.

[17:03] Ana Nogueira: I actually remember this really well. When I was in high school, you have like AP classes or whatever and there was senior year. There was AP lit. There was finally an AP rec class. And it was hard to get into and I remember being so excited about it because I was like, I'm going to get into that. Like this is what I'm good at, I'm good at reading a book and writing an essay and they got rid of it. They got rid of AP lit because I thought it was too subjective. It was suddenly like this is a wishy-washy kind of intelligence that depends on the reader or whether this or that and I'm like to a point, but it minimized it. This didn't count as much or whatever and it's so funny now I'm looking at this looking so far ahead.

My daughter is two, but you're always thinking about school and public schools in New York and you're looking at the list, the high schools that are hard to get into, but they're public schools, whatever. It's like almost all of them are focused on math and science and technology and that's this kind of like these kids are special. We're going to give them this extra special public school education. And the rest of you, it's almost like your intelligence is like BS or something like you're faking it or to be good with words is to be like a drifter or a snake oil salesman or something.

[18:24] Bobby Steggert: So I have a question about that. What I really relate to you about is that when I was a kid, my intelligence was very much around language too. For me, it felt like a mark. I feel like my verbal intelligence was connected to my gayness and so I was afraid of students understanding how verbally gifted I was because it set me apart in sort of a gay way and it makes sense, right? Boys aren't supposed to be as verbal and expressive in those stupid gendered rules. Was there any sense that your verbal intelligence made a mark out of you or is it more that you felt it made you less serious?

[19:07] Ana Nogueira: It made me less serious. First of all, I think what you're talking about is so interesting about the gendered nature of different kinds of intelligence, right? Because you're saying it in one way and it works the other way too, which is that girls are bad at math or whatever, which of course is not true. But there's something there in terms of what we're taught. Did it make me a mark? I think for me, ever asked me these questions, Bobby. No one ever asked me this question. Also, my therapist is on vacation, so this is like delicious therapy for the week. Seriously, I think it felt unserious and also I think it might, you know, you're seeing when you're an actress when you're emotional when at home, you've been taught that you can freely express yourself and so then you bring that personality out into the world is that I'm too much.

I'm too much and being hyperverbal and communicative and sometimes very passionate about the thing you're communicating can be like you're too much, you're off-putting and too opinionated when really you're somebody who can see the matrix of a complicated argument and you're trying to pull other people through the spiderweb of your mind. That is so clear to you and ink was often looked at. That's a lot coming at me.

[20:53] Bobby Steggert: We'll be right back to catch up to the present.

[20:57] Ana Nogueira: You are now with a partner who is equally as verbal, equally as intelligent. You guys really spar in this really beautiful way. What happened in terms of your early relationship to boys in connection to your intelligence?

[21:10] Ana Nogueira: Yeah. I think you're so gnarly, but I think that there's two things happening at once, which is puberty and being like a cute preteen girl and having all this male attention. And then also once you have the male attention that you are yourself, it is more than they bargained for and I think I have really early about us being too passionate, which is like an uncool thing to be, not necessarily a sexy thing to be, but it being in direct conflict with the fact that I was desired in this other physical way. So it wasn't somebody who was being written off by boys at all. Instead, I was being pursued and then not rejected, but there's a little eye roll.

[22:21] Bobby Steggert: Wow.

[22:21] Ana Nogueira: I didn't, I got all this in the reverse from a more powerful standpoint in terms of what you're saying is that I often felt bored or unchallenged by people that I was with or dating or interested in. What I wanted was a spar, real conversation and even a debate. Sometimes my husband who is absolutely, you know, on par like you said and I think what absolutely drew us to each other and what still does, but sometimes he's like, "Why are you arguing with me?" And I'm like, "I'm not arguing. I'm debating you. I'm trying to figure out what I think. I'm trying to get somewhere together. I'm not mad. This is how I figure out the truth and pressure testing my point of view with your point of view and I'm willing to concede, but you got to make a really good point for me to concede and if you're not going to make a really good point then I don't know what to say.

That's on you." It's exciting to me and it's helpful to me and I learn things through that and so there's this mixture of me feeling like I'm too much but also at the end of the day coming out super unsatisfied. I think from a lot of relationships because I wanted people to be at my level. It's not to say they weren't smart. It's more just to say that maybe they didn't communicate the way I did or maybe they weren't interested in having those kinds of conversations with somebody, with a girl, with somebody they wanted to be romantic with. When it comes to being an artist, I remember when I was younger, my mom actually, who knows me more than anyone would say to me, "You are too smart to just be an actor."

[24:04] Ana Nogueira: And I was always like, fuck you, this is what I've chosen to do. And now that I'm older, I know what she meant. There were certain things about being an actor that were frustrating to me because there was not enough intellectual stimulation at times. And so tell me about that process for you. You went into performing, but now you have this extremely rich career as a playwright and a screenwriter as well. Was acting enough when you were young?

[24:27] Ana Nogueira: I think when I was young, it was. I think when I was young, it was enough. But I was also in school, right? So it's not really the same. It's not your whole life, your whole career, your whole day. My mother said something similar to me. And like you, I was like, fuck you. My mother would always say, you're a writer. You're a writer and you should be writing a play. And she would read short stories I wrote for school or creative writing. And she'd be like, this is special. This is different. You should pursue this. And I was always like, do you think I'm not a good actor? It's always that. So do you think this means you don't think I should be an actress? You don't think I'm good enough? Of course, that's not what she meant.

She was proud of this other thing of her daughter, but we're so insecure. And particularly with acting, because everyone else is telling you not to do it. Even though my parents were so supportive. So I think when I was young, it was enough. But because it was an extracurricular activity. And then when I was in college, it was enough because it was intensive to go to a conservatory. And also your social life in college takes up a lot of time. And I even think it was enough when I was like deeply out of work. Because there's so much yearning spent in your day. There's so much auditioning. There's so much headspace. You're so singularly focused. And everyone would bring up writing for me. And I was never interested in it because everyone around me was writing things for themselves to star in.

And that was just not my bag. I was like, I'm not that. I'm not a comedian. I'm not a personality like that. I couldn't get it up for that or something. And so it was only when I started just barely, but making some money as an actor and having a little momentum that I started writing, which is interesting, right? Because I didn't have that same yearning and I was working on thing to thing. And that's when I realized, oh, this isn't enough. Because there was a feeling before. If I get the jobs that I want to get, I'll be so busy and I'll be this, I'll be this, then I'll be fulfilled. And then when I started getting more work like that, I loved it so much, but I was like, oh, I'm bored. I'm bored the rest of the time.

I have a job that I'm not spending all my time getting a job. So then what am I doing? And also it's this other thing you're talking about, which I struggle talking about because I think acting is extraordinary. And I think people who have completely dedicated their lives to it are such deep, interesting, complicated people. And I wonder if I had more success as an actor. I don't know. Would I be one? I don't know. But it was more that I had this itchy intellectual part of myself that wasn't getting scratched, or I was trying to scratch it via acting. And I don't think that was good for me as an actor.

[27:30] Ana Nogueira: So tell me more about that. My version of that was that I would research the hell out of a role and I would enjoy that as much if not more than the acting. So how were you trying to scratch the itch as the actor?

[27:41] Ana Nogueira: I think I would do it like in rehearsal, asking a lot of questions and really trying to get into it and be like, what do you think they did before this? And what was their relationship like? Why do you think she's doing this? And trying to busy a certain part of my brain that was clearly not getting satisfied. And I just don't think that's the work of acting. It's at least not the work of acting for me.

[28:09] Ana Nogueira: Could you let it go, or did it actually hurt the work itself?

[28:15] Ana Nogueira: I think it would hurt the work itself. There was almost a feeling of like, this is supposed to be harder than it is. This should take more something. And for some people, maybe it does. Everyone's process is different. But for me, I think the work of acting is a job of letting go, instinct and surrender. And your brain isn't great at any of those things. Your intellect is not really so into surrendering. So I do think it would get in the way. It always felt like I would show up to set or to a rehearsal and think, there must be more to do than this. This was so hard to get this job. I get these jobs so infrequently. But now that I'm here, there must be more to it. And then there simply wasn't. And I found that now, because I have this other career writing, and I am all intellected, I'm like, I use my brain all day, more than I care to. I'm like, I'm tired. But then when it comes time for me to get there, I can give into it.

[29:34] Bobby Steggert: Yeah, when I saw you in Grief Hotel, your presence was so at ease. It's the opposite of how you're describing your rehearsals when you were a younger actor.

[29:44] Ana Nogueira: Yeah, I felt in that play, I felt so unencumbered. And that play, I always hesitate to talk about anything processing. But that play required both a lot of stillness and then a lot of emotion. And sort of out of nowhere.

[30:09] Bobby Steggert: Interesting contrast between acting and writing.

[30:12] Ana Nogueira: Yeah.

[30:12] Bobby Steggert: And could you talk about how you started writing? Was it a choice? Was it organic?

[30:17] Ana Nogueira: First of all, I always really enjoyed it. I loved English class. I loved creative writing. But I hadn't really done it since high school because no one had been making me do it. And like I said, everyone was trying to write their vehicles for themselves in their early off. And I wasn't interested in that either. But everyone, whether they become a writer or not, in this industry has a couple of drawers full of half started plays that they never go into and are never finished is the biggest thing. And so I did make a choice. I had done the national tour of In the Heights. And so for the first time, I had money when I got back to New York. And I had an idea for a romcom. And my goal was simply to finish a script, which would be my advice to anybody who's interested in starting to write.

I would just say, your goal is to finish it. You're going to judge it 8 million times through, you're going to decide this is trash, you're going to have to throw out 15 pages or more and fix them. I just had to do that today for an actual job. Say, Oh, that thing I've been working on for four days, I'm realizing it doesn't belong, we have to start from the beginning. And so I gave myself that one goal. I was like 26 maybe. And I did it. And I finished this romcom. And it wasn't terrible. It wasn't makeable, but it wasn't terrible.

[31:43] Ana Nogueira: And I think what I found that you can do something as your job, if you like what's hard about it, is there something about the rigorousness of writing that you like?

[31:57] Ana Nogueira: Yes. I like the puzzle. I like the pushing past the discomfort, which I get to this very day, it is a very uncomfortable job. You are constantly hitting walls, and you would rather just roll the internet. This is why people just used to smoke all the time. It's so uncomfortable to write. But the feeling when you are on the other side, when you break through it, the best and figuring out is so satisfying. And I found that because my only goal with this script was to finish it, that I just had to plug away every day. It's like the chop wood carry water thing. Every day I would sit down and say you have to finish it. And I think I also liked a little bit even though I struggle with this. I like it.

It's just me. And that's what's hard about it is that it's just you. And it's just you in your mind. No one else is fixing these problems for you. No one else is going to work out the sequence, figure out what this line is, whatever. It's just you. So it's challenging, but it's also so satisfying.

[33:18] Bobby Steggert: Have you always had faith in the just you aspect of the experience?

[33:27] Ana Nogueira: What a good question. Pregnant pause. I think I have doubt in myself the way anybody has strong doubt in themselves. But I also think I have a lot of confidence in my ability to suss out a problem in a script. I think it's a battle that I have as much as anybody. And yet I think I have, along with that doubt, which we all need to have for our jobs, right? This little bit of ego about it. This little bit of, you have to a little bit think that I have something special here. And that's true of a therapist. That's true of an actor. You have to have a little bit of cockiness about your ability, even if it's like fake it till you make it. You won't get out of bed. You wouldn't be able to do the job if you didn't have that little voice in you that's like you are, I hesitate to even say it, but to feel you're special.

You have a specialness to you about this specific project, about this specific whatever. So I struggle with doubt. Writing I find to be a doubt-laden occupation. And yet if someone, this is how I would characterize it. If someone else were to come in and say, oh, I'll fix that scene for you. I would be like, fuck out of here. Hands off my script. You can't fix this. Only I can fix this. Only I know what this is, right? So as much as I have the doubt of it, I also have this feeling that like when push comes to shove, I can do this alone.

[35:11] Bobby Steggert: Okay. So I'm going to ask you to use that cockiness a little bit. I promise I won't expose you too much. Okay. And I'll go first. So I know that as an actor, my gift was emotional complexity. That was very true. I know that's why I worked. I know that's why I was successful. So what is it about your writing that you feel is special?

[35:26] Ana Nogueira: I feel that I have, I'm glad you went first, or this would never be coming out of my mouth. I think I have an innate understanding of structure, which I think can be hard and challenging for people who maybe have, people have so many different skills as writers. They're incredible writing jokes. They're really great with dialogue. And yet you try to explain to them, like, at this point in the story, we need a big shift. We need a this or that. And whether or not I achieve it every time, do you see me trying to mush up my cockiness?

[36:05] Ana Nogueira: I think I have a neat understanding of structure and I think I also have a strong understanding of what is emotional and what is true to a character and therefore to a lot of people. This probably goes right back to Joseph Campbell in a really interesting way. Right. This thing of this big picture thing that helps people feel a story, which is structure. And then the contrast of that structure with something as messy and individual as emotion. And emotion sometimes about things that are not obvious, that are, it's weird that you're so angry about X. It's rage that this character is crying about something that feels almost funny. Whatever that is, putting that within a strict structure is something I think I can do.

Like you're saying, emotional complexity just came to you. It's something you understood. You almost do it without thinking about it. Whereas other people are trying to make themselves emotionally complex. And I think something I bring to the table without having to put effort into it. The rise and fall of a story and the emotionality of human beings is something I understand and something I love.

[37:37] Bobby Steggert: We'll be right back. It really then makes sense as to why you've been entrusted to write this huge, very exciting superhero movie. And there are so many things to ask about it. I guess I'd love to know what it means to you to have your vision validated on such a grand scale, both commercially and professionally, and what that brings up for you.

[38:09] Ana Nogueira: I will ever feel afraid to talk about these things because it feels so big that I am fiercely jinxing, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And I also feel the need to say, not in a self-deprecating way, but in an honest way, that there's so many people. It's very different than playwriting. So for playwriting, I have the germ of an idea and I generally don't talk about it until I've lived with it. And then I write a play and I write it by myself and I don't let anybody see it till it's finished. And then whether people like it or not, or wants to produce it or director wants to come on, that's up to them. But that's my vision. That's the thing I came up with in my own little head. And this is very different because this is a beloved character.

This is based on a comic by a writer, an excellent illustrator. This is a comic that was brought to me by a studio. So these are all many people's visions. And then I've been given the task to write it. So all of those things don't actually minimize it. They actually make it a little bit more, they make it a little scarier. They add to the pressure because there's all these people that have already put in work and are putting in so much work. And so then your job is to deliver a script. But I only know how to write if I care. This goes back to the being a good student thing. I'm not interested in getting an A just to get an A. And I can't really write something if I don't feel connected to its emotional core or to its characters.

And so for something this big to have at the script level a piece of me in it. This is a long way of just answering to you. It's overwhelming. It is impossible to wrap my head around that I don't think I'll be able to make sense of it for a while is a non-answer to your question. But I don't think I'll be able to make sense of something this big and how much of me is in it for some time.

[40:06] Ana Nogueira: The mindfuck is that it could change your life drastically or it could change your life not at all. I know. What a mindfuck that is. Isn't that this whole business though? And which one do you want more? Who knows, right? Which one do you want more? I think, you know, I love my life the way it is, which is another thing that kind of happens as you get older in this business is that all the fame that you longed for as a young person, you're so grateful to have not gotten and that you just get to be you within the business. Like what a gift that is. It's the marriage of commerce and art is so complicated because of this life changing thing that you're talking about. And it's so hard to not look at both of those things when really the deep goal is that the things that you write, the things that you make, the things that you perform in will feel authentic to other people.

And so I think that's why it's hard for me to even talk about it because I don't know what it is. It's not anything. It's a thing on a page. And so I have no idea how it's going to translate. The experience for me at this point has been great. So that's good because if it wasn't, that would be rough. And I think that happened a lot. But it's more just that because of the kind of art form this is, it's being in rehearsal for a lead in a Broadway show and you go, I don't know. I don't know what this is. I don't know how I'm going to be received. I don't know how this is going to look. I don't know how it's going to come together. There's also, of course, a major amount of imposter syndrome when you get tasked with something like this, the sort of why me and you feel like you are getting away with something. The whole business feels like this push and pull between what I was just saying, this extreme doubt and this cockiness. And it's the whole thing.

[42:03] Bobby Steggert: What's been so wonderful about this conversation for me is that we decided to focus on your intellect as a part. But what you've revealed is that there's this entire cluster of parts around it that have all kinds of different ideas about what it means. There's self-judgment, there's doubt, there's hope, there's faith, there's all kinds of things around it. And I think it's a real service to how honest you're able to be about it. You're very good at your job. So you asked me a lot of questions that I wasn't even expecting. So this was all so off the cuff and in a way that it's very exciting to me as the person that thinks a lot. And I knew we were going to be doing this and I kept saying, I'm not going to plan what I'm going to say.

I just want to have a conversation with Bobby and I want to find things. And it's a challenge when you're somebody with this spinning mind that's always looking for a narrative or whatever. And I feel like there are so many things that I just said that I didn't know that I felt or I didn't know how all of this stuff was intertwined. And yeah, I don't know. It makes me emotional to think about all the little corners of your life that these sort of sticky parts of your past and personality fit into.

[43:28] Ana Nogueira: I guess the last question I would love to ask you, let's say that this current job gives you a lot of freedom. How do you want to use your voice in the future if given that freedom?

[43:37] Ana Nogueira: To tell the truth. To do things that feel emotionally honest if uncomfortable. I think it's challenging to make original material. And people complain about intellectual property in Hollywood, probably in commercial theater as well. And they can do it till the cows come home. But it's not going anywhere. And there's a reason for that. And there's a reason that I think intellectual property is a great way to tell stories and to start stories. And people have been doing it from the beginning of time. So I hate when people talk about it like it's this new problem when it's not. And you can tell beautiful and interesting stories with existing characters or based on a book or whatever. But at the same time, I think it works best when it is being done side by side with original work and things that play with form and structure and that are unfamiliar.

I think there is such a place for the familiar in storytelling. Not just for comfort. But I think that the unfamiliar also needs a little more airtime. And freedom and space for artists allows for time to gestate and think and cook. And that's the only way I know how to write a play is very slowly. And my god, I would just love to have the time to write another play. Let alone raise a human. Let's not forget about that. There's also her. There's that little chickadee that lives in my house who I want to spend so much time with, which people don't, I think, say enough about parenthood. There's a feeling I need to. And it's no, I want to be with my daughter. I like my daughter. I'd like to hang out with her all the time.

[45:33] Ana Nogueira: To bring it full circle in terms of intellect and intelligence, I think one of the true joys of getting to raise a child and Faye specifically having met her is that you get to see her intelligence blossom exponentially in these years. It is so interesting. First of all, it is an absolute joy because you know them so well that when they pick up one new tiny thing, you know, starting to put together real legitimate sentences and new sentences. And I can't tell you how happy it makes you. And then at the same time, I do see parents and I'm so desperate to not do this. Grave giftedness from their own child. Want their child to be just that much better, smarter. And I don't need her to be anything other than who she is. It's this push and pull of celebrating this, watching this dream, make these new connections and like you said, blossom and just explode and also not putting pressure to be more than exactly what it is.

[46:44] Bobby Steggert: You're one of the first people I've interviewed who has shared a family history that it seems they're not actually trying to improve upon, but they're actually trying to replicate.

[46:48] Ana Nogueira: Yes. My sister and I have talked about this before we had kids. We lived together for a few years and we've admitted to each other. It's a lot to live up to and we don't have degrees in psychology.

[47:08] Bobby Steggert: I think you're doing just fine.

[47:15] Ana Nogueira: Yeah. Faye also, we have to say for your listeners how much Faye loves you.

[47:21] Bobby Steggert: Tell the listeners how much Faye loves me.

[47:27] Ana Nogueira: Yeah. From the jump, how much Faye loved you. The moment she met you, say almost took her first steps towards you, not towards her mother, but she was like, I must learn to walk to get to Bobby.

[47:36] Bobby Steggert: I wonder what we share. One day we'll find out what it is.

[47:40] Ana Nogueira: Emotional complexity maybe.