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[0:00] Bobby Steggert: I'm Bobby Steggart, and this is The Quiet Part Out Loud.

[0:15] Bobby Steggert: Whitney Bashor is one of the people I've worked with who I believe, as does anyone who's ever seen her perform, has the voice of an angel, a literal angel sent by God from the literal heavens. If you don't know what I'm talking about, look no further than her stunning song, Another Life, on the Bridges of Madison County album. Seriously, just stop here, go to Spotify, listen to it, come back. So what exactly is an angel? Well, it's a symbol of otherworldly beauty and grace and perfectionism. Angels aren't human. They are better than us. They transcend us. And so this is why I was so fascinated and excited to hear that Whitney wanted to explore her perfectionist part. I was so curious, does that part of her launch her into the heavens as we the audience perceive her?

Or does it ever get in her way, expecting things of her that are impossible, considering she does happen to be a mere mortal like the rest of us? The answer, of course, is both. Our parts, whatever their agendas, can do as much good as they can do harm. My perfectionist part was alive and well for the majority of my time here on earth. Mine was mainly tied to achievement. And as a young person, especially to my grades. My mom tells the story of my coming home from school in the fourth grade, absolutely despondent that I had gotten a B in social studies. I was deeply distraught that I wouldn't be accepted into the college of my choice with that mark of failure on my fourth grade report card. My perfectionist part was furious and afraid and God bless it, trying to keep me away from the shame of being gay and found out at any moment.

Often our critical protector parts are doing everything they can to keep us from being further vulnerable. Now, as a therapist, of course, I think of perfectionism differently. I have such compassion for the people who struggle with it, because frankly, it's an impossible expectation. There's just no such thing anywhere. And especially in art, where it's entirely subjective and worse, perfectionism usually does nothing but to reinforce shame, as opposed to eliminating it. One definition of perfectionism, which was burned into me since the first time I heard it. Perfectionism is violence against the self. Another way to define it, and it may not be as clear before you hear this conversation. Perfectionism is disembodiment.

Think about it. If you were always aiming for this perfect bullseye, you were entirely focused on this tiny dot of an ideal outcome. How in the world could you be in your experience at all? You are literally disconnected from your presence, from your body, living outside of yourself and in the future, already playing out either your glorious but expected success or the shame and disappointment of your failure. Whitney shares the origins of her perfectionism and how it manifested, yes, in good grades too, but more fundamentally in obedience, in body image, and in surprising ways, a complicated relationship to her voice. She argues, and I agree, that perfectionism is actually pretty uninteresting.

Oh, and I buried the lead here. Whitney, like me, is now a social worker. And while performing every night at MJ, she is also starting her private practice as a therapist. We both share how being in therapy with others all day reminds us that perfectionism just ain't in the cards.

[4:11] Bobby Steggert: I was so excited when I saw online that you graduated and that you passed your LMSW exam. So that was the seed of this conversation. When did you decide to become a social worker?

[4:15] Whitney Bashor: So it happened during the pandemic. I've always been interested in going back to school. I have taught voice lessons for a while, and I found and continue to find that space in a voice lesson can be really vulnerable and all of that. And at first, I was like, I would love to have more skills to appropriately help my voice student. And I did the program, and then I knew I was going to start MJ eventually. We just didn't know when everything would open back up. And then I somehow managed to do the program and rehearse and open MJ while I was pregnant with Frankie, my second child, and took leave from the show, but then also took a three-month maternity leave from my field placement and graduated in December and passed my exam in January.

[5:15] Bobby Steggert: I am so impressed because I felt I only had the capacity to do it by putting acting completely aside. And also, I don't have children. I don't know how that was even possible. How did you do that?

[5:28] Whitney Bashor: I think what was helpful was that my coursework was online and asynchronous. So I was able to read at my own pace to get things done ahead of time. I just had to be extremely intentional with my time. I had no spontaneity in my life. I was extremely structured and would just look ahead in my schedule and be like, here's when I have to show up for work. Here's when I have to show up as a parent. And so in the time that's left, I can show up for my field placement and do my coursework and things like that.

[6:10] Bobby Steggert: Are you singing in MJ? That's a stressor. I can imagine being even harder to have to sing every night.

[6:16] Whitney Bashor: My track in MJ is very much the princess track in that I have a lot of great book scenes and I sing a little duet in act one and a little duet in act two, but that's it. So that allows me to really show up no matter what state I'm in. I can be tired and do it. I can be sick and do it. I don't have to check in every day and make sure that it's there and that's huge.

[6:32] Bobby Steggert: So this is a good segue into the part that you want to share, the perfectionist. You just mentioned all the ways in which you didn't have to be perfect in order to succeed. I'm so curious in terms of your history, how perfectionism came to play when you were a kid.

[6:59] Whitney Bashor: I think it was a part of me that showed up pretty early on for different reasons, but from both parents, my mother was very involved in my brother and I's life. Like when my brother and I were born, she decided to not go back to work as a nurse, but was a full-time caregiver at home, which was amazing. And it meant that my brother and I were her whole world. And she had learned from her mother that love can show up as criticism sometimes. So I think it showed up for my mom in an effort to not be criticized. And then it showed up because my dad was difficult to live with as a kid. He operated as if it was a tyranny, not a democracy. He worked really hard. He was an emergency room physician. So he had this extremely time-consuming and high-stakes, stressful job.

And the work that he did not do was that his job gave him a lot of anxiety. And when he knew he had to go to work the next day, he would be boiling over with this anticipation of how hard it was going to be. And so he could explode at any moment. He was just like really explosive. And so I just remember when my dad was working nights, my brother and I could not play upstairs in the house. We had to play outside because if you woke my dad up, big mess, just things like that. So I think like in an effort to not make him explode, I tried to be really perfect. And in an effort to not make my mom pick me apart or criticize me, I tried to be perfect.

[8:54] Whitney Bashor: Totally. What did perfect mean to little Whitney other than behaving?

[9:02] Whitney Bashor: I think it meant in terms of my dad, it was to become as small and invisible as possible so that I would never shut him off and that I was always just easy. I wanted to be easy and like never rough the waters. And I think my mom, again, learning criticism from her mother, I remember clocking that like really early on and not blaming my mom and being like, oh, this is generational. But for that, it manifested in body stuff. So it was like, you are only beautiful if your body is a certain size. I remember my mother always praising me for being beautiful. She thought I was beautiful. And that was something that she really wanted everybody to know about my beautiful daughter. And I just remember feeling like, okay, these are the things she's proud of.

These are the things that appease her. So I think perfect had to do with a lot of smallness, not taking up space, being easy, like no conflict, which manifested in my early 20s into a lot of eating disordered behavior, and then manifested its way into different ways of trying to control things. If I can control all of these things, if I'm obedient enough, then I don't know, then what? Then I'm one, then I'm perfect. There was never any sort of end goal or prize. But yeah, it was definitely a coping strategy that carried me through most of my life.

[10:38] Bobby Steggert: Yeah. It's so interesting to me that as you map it, the function of the perfectionism was for very different reasons, depending on which parent you were thinking about. And so would your dad ever give positive reinforcement to achievement and perfectionism? Or was it really only about avoiding his reaction if it was negative?

[10:56] Whitney Bashor: He never was effusive, no hugs, no I love you's. Occasionally he'd be like, good job. Good job. Or he'd be like, you look good. But that's an earth-shattering compliment from my dad. And again, you meet his parents and you're like, super understandable, very generational. He did not grow up in a type of home that was loving, effusive, feelings. No, none of that.

[11:26] Bobby Steggert: Was there a part of you as a young child that really did have that wider perspective? A part of you was trying to be perfect, but then a part of you really understood the whole picture?

[11:32] Whitney Bashor: I don't think I gained the perspective until I was in high school. As a young kid, no, I did not have that perspective.

[11:44] Bobby Steggert: Was there ever a childhood fantasy that perfectionism would gain his love?

[11:50] Whitney Bashor: Oh yeah, absolutely. I think that's how it all started. Maybe if I'm easy, small, perfect enough, that will unlock the key for him to be like, I love you so much, and I'm so proud of you, and thank you so much for making this easier for me or whatever. Yes, definitely. And I have to only assume because you're a brilliant performer that achievement was part of perfectionism.

[12:18] Bobby Steggert: 100%. And what was that for you in the family that you grew up in?

[12:26] Whitney Bashor: I think productivity was something that was really praised in my house. My dad worked insane hours, and my mom took care of my brother and I, which was a full-time job. And on top of that, she was always busy with gardening and involved in our lives. Rest was never celebrated. My brother and I were really never allowed to have sick days, right? He'd be like, are you bleeding from your ears? No, you're out of school. You don't have a fever. You're not that sick. You can go to school. Productivity was the expectation. So I think we learned early on the more you produce, the more they're going to be like, really good job. What does a kid produce?

[13:13] Whitney Bashor: I think good grades, being good at the things that you pursue, not being idle. I think not being idle was what was celebrated. So there was no lying around on a Saturday. It was like, what are we doing? What are we going to do? Go out with your friends, go climb a tree, get out of the house, but don't sit around. And then I think that sort of evolved as I got older, right? When I learned that I was good at performing, which was in high school, I was like, OK, so maybe I'll try my best.

[13:45] Whitney Bashor: College for that, because maybe that'll be really pleasing. And then when I got to college, college was really tricky for me. It wasn't until my senior year of college that I was like, okay, so I'm going to move to New York and I'm going to achieve all these other things. I'm going to be on Broadway. I don't think I really even knew what that meant then, like what that would be. But yeah, there was no satiation. It was never like, you've achieved it. Let's just like, bask in how good that feels. It was like next thing.

[14:18] Bobby Steggert: When you were being led by that part to perform, were you also finding joy in it?

[14:22] Whitney Bashor: Yeah, as a young person, all the way up until college performing was nothing but joyful. It was also the only place that having big feelings was like, great. It was a super safe place to have big feelings. And so in that way, it was really like cathartic, because I was like, Oh, I can feel all the things I want to feel. And I don't have to worry about anybody saying Whitney, it's too much. It was a good thing.

[14:52] Bobby Steggert: And so you mentioned this, what did then being in front of people so visible, due to what was expected of you, either internally or externally in terms of your appearance?

[15:04] Whitney Bashor: So the disordered eating and the perfectionism around appearance, the call never really came from inside the house. It was never that I was like, now that all these people are looking at me, I feel like I should look different. Voices from the outside would start to make comments about my body. Maybe you should be smaller and you'd get more parts if you were this shape or this size. Then in my professional career, it was a lot of yes, they said they wanted somebody like normal size, but you're not like industry normal. You're like the world normal. Industry normal is much smaller than you are. And so that all of this information from the outside that was constantly you are not there yet. You're not small enough yet to accomplish the things that you want to accomplish.

[15:53] Bobby Steggert: We'll be right back.

[16:02] Bobby Steggert: Hey, y'all, it's Bobby. In one month's time, the quiet part out loud has become even more than I hoped. And now it's time to ask you, who do you want to hear from? Who are you curious about? Or what part of you do you want reflected in these conversations? Head to the episode notes and follow the link to a quick survey or reach out on Instagram at quiet part out loud pod. And thanks for listening. And was that part of what was tricky about college in terms of your learning the system that you're about to enter?

[16:28] Whitney Bashor: College was tricky for me because performing growing up in a really small town in Iowa, performing had always been the thing that set me apart from my peers. And when I went to school, and I was in like a conservatory program ish at Michigan, it was the thing that made me like everybody else. So then I was like, Oh, am I I have to find other things that are identifying markers about myself outside of performing. I didn't like that I've landed on I'm a performer, but now that's not interesting enough. What else do I like outside of that? I also at that time was really, really struggling with a lot of undiagnosed anxiety and depression. And so it was really hard for me. The change of going from high school to going to college and not being at home and living in a dorm and all these things that was extremely overwhelming for me.

I was not the 18 year old who was like, give me freedom. I was like, I don't know how to function. I don't know what the rules are. I don't know. I don't know how to do this. And so that was like a macro thing of college. But then within the micro of like musical theater program, I was surrounded by all there were 20 of us in the program, I was surrounded by all these people who really knew who they were like way more than I did and knew how to advocate for themselves and way of master knowledge about musical theater than I did. So again, I just always felt like there's not enough enoughness there. And I would try out for the parts that I've had been always told based on my whiteness and blonde hair that you should be playing this part in a Rodgers and Hammerstein musical and I would audition for those roles and I wouldn't get them and it would be this huge disconnect of like, what am I doing? Like I can't even accomplish the things that you've been telling me I should accomplish.

[18:38] Whitney Bashor: And so my senior year was when Ben and Justin started writing their own music and they asked me to be a part of this new thing that had never been done before. And I had never worked on a new show. So there wasn't an expectation. It was just like something that we were making on the side.

[18:56] Bobby Steggert: How could you be perfect at something that you don't know yet?

[19:00] Whitney Bashor: Correct. I was like, there's no bullseye. I'm making the thing. And in that process, I'm, I don't think I had ever really known what it felt like to be a creative person until that moment. And that's when I was like, that's the thing I want to do. Because there's no thing to hit and miss. There's no thing. You're making the thing. And then you're presenting the thing to be like, is it a thing? Do we like it? Is it impactful? Then I was like, oh, this is what I want to do. People were like, this is what you should be doing. And I was like, yeah, I know. You don't have to tell me. I don't need your opinions anymore. I know this now.

[19:44] Bobby Steggert: Up to that point, you had never had the chance to experiment with what something felt like for you.

[19:53] Whitney Bashor: It was always like, I'm presenting this thing. Do you like it? Not really. Okay. I'm presenting this thing. Is it good enough? No. Is it good enough? Sure. Yeah, it's good enough. And that was it. It was never satisfying.

[20:09] Bobby Steggert: And so in college, were you connecting the dots when you saw classmates who were freer in themselves because of a different past? Were you understanding what had led you to not feel connected to yourself in the same way?

[20:22] Whitney Bashor: No, not in college. In college, I was just frustrated and anxious and depressed. It just felt like I had failed. I missed the mark. I was trying so hard. And yet, oftentimes, I was on a hamster wheel because I didn't know. I took some medication for my anxiety in college. I don't even remember what it was. But it was something that if you took it when you drank, you blacked out. And college was all about drinking. So I just remember blacking out a lot. And instead of being like, maybe I should not drink so that this adverse effect doesn't happen with my medicine. I remember being like, I should get off the medicine. Because college is about parties. So I went off the medicine and didn't really entertain medication again until like my 30s. But yeah, so it was like a lot of anxiety and depression that wasn't managed well at that period of my life.

[21:22] Bobby Steggert: You know, and anxiety and depression, of course, is always a genesis of genetics and temperament and history and experience. And so do you have a story about what your body was responding to?

[21:35] Whitney Bashor: My anxiety had been walking with me in life from a very young age. And without me even realizing that it was there. In hindsight, I realized that it was bad. I was terrified to learn how to drive. I thought I was going to kill someone with the car. I'm like, I don't know the rules yet. There is absolutely no reason that I should be behind the wheel of a car. I have a distinct memory. Again, I'm on a country road in Iowa, there's nobody else around. And I came to an intersection and my mom's like, just turn right, just turn right. And I was paralyzed. I could not turn the wheel. I couldn't move. And my mom was screaming at me, what is wrong with you? Just drive the car and I couldn't. I had to get out of the car.

I'm pretty sure it was like my first experience of a panic attack or an anxiety attack, right. And it walked with me through college, it showed up in college as like pretty severe bouts of OCD, again, trying to control things in order to manage the anxiety. And then I started to have more and more panic attacks in college, when it would come to then having to perform in front of other people was really messy, because I had to be so public and just mentally, I was really not in a place to be sharing my insides with the outside because it wasn't managed. So it was a little bit too chaotic. But again, I didn't know that. So I did go to therapy when I was in college, I found a counselor through the school and I talked to somebody and that was helpful and the medicine and went off the medicine and my anxiety and then flowed through my 20s and 30s. And then it got really bad during the pandemic.

That's when I was like, I need medication to help this. Yeah, the intrusive thoughts became too overwhelming. And when I had children, the intrusive thoughts would turn to what if something happens to my kids, and I was like, I'm suffering, I'm not willing to be here and I don't have to be here. And so that's when I got medication. I take Lexpro and it helps me tremendously. And for the first time since 2020, so like in the last four years, the freedom that I have as a performer, I used to have so much performance anxiety, the back of my throat would close up, I would like sweat, I'd get really dizzy. And now I perform with ease. I still get nervous, but I don't have all of these physical things that happen that make me feel as if I'm about to die, because that's really what it felt like.

[24:15] Bobby Steggert: I'm so surprised to hear you connect it to performance, not when you're in college, that makes sense to me. But from what I've seen of your work, I don't know how you'll feel about my saying this. But if I think about the very few people who have quote, a perfect voice, you're one of those people. I really mean that. And so that's why I was so interested in this idea of perfectionism. And so the question is, did your perfectionist part get you to where you are in terms of how glorious a singer and performer you are? Or is it something that has gotten in your way more than helped you?

[24:54] Whitney Bashor: I think so. I think the striving absolutely helped. I think the meticulous attention to detail and being somebody who's no again, no again, no again, when it would come to working on a song working in my voice lessons. So yes. And it is the number one thing that people ask me when I work with music directors like, okay, yeah, it sounds perfect. Now can you make it sound like more human? Oh, and I'm like, I can nail the perfect take. But nobody wants perfection. It's not interesting. They're like, can you rough it up? Can you make it messier? Can you that thing that's human, that allows the listener to connect to the person singing because there's some cracks in there, and therefore it's relatable.

[25:48] Bobby Steggert: So when people have given you that message, have you agreed? Or have you been offended? Or both?

[25:54] Whitney Bashor: Yes, everything. I've been like, how dare you? And at the same time, I'm like, yeah, this is a theme. This is a theme for me. This is a theme. Yeah. Because I feel like two parts happen when you're working on something for me, at least in my process. There's the super heady bit of it where whether it's a song or you're acting, it's a scene or whatever. There's this really cerebral part of it where you pick it apart and understand it and it's very heady and it's very critical and analytical. I thrive there. But then the second part has to happen where you pack it up and throw it away and it's embodied. And you're just experiencing it and it's in every part of your body. I'm less successful at that part.

I've only become more successful at that part in my late 30s. Now in my 40s, I used to spend way too much time up here and not enough time in my body. And now I think I trust enough that I don't have to worry about the first part. That part will happen so well on its own. But I have to actively remind myself about the embodiment bit. And then that's only when it gets good, is when you're embodied.

[27:08] Bobby Steggert: I totally agree with you 100%. You've said something twice, which I've just marked. The anxiety was often connected to not knowing the rules. Is there something about that analytical part of you that is connected to perfectionism that is about the rules?

[27:25] Whitney Bashor: Totally, totally. Because there were a lot of rules in my house. And it was...

[27:29] Whitney Bashor: Okay, as long as I know what they are, I know how to not break them. And this is something that will be true for me as a performer. The first thing I try to establish, whether I'm very literal with how I say it or just questions that I ask, is what are the rules of the world? Let's establish the rules first. Once I know the rules, I will know how to be embodied in the space. All of those things that when you're building something new, what is the tone of the thing? Are we talking directly to the audience? Is there a fourth wall? I need to know what the rule is. Once I know what the rule is, I can play. But for me personally, I need the boundaries to be very clear. Then I can explore within that.

But I am not one of those performers who just, let me just throw something at the wall. I do not have that freedom. I don't know how to have that freedom. If I was asked to work that way, it would be very anxiety producing to me. I'm very analytical for a while. Then once I feel like everyone in the room understands and agrees on the rules, then I'm free.

[28:36] Bobby Steggert: Does your perfectionist part worry ever about people's perception of you? Is it a socially aware part?

[28:41] Whitney Bashor: When it came to my performance in terms of what my voice sounded like being an actor, it was not about other people's perceptions. It was about what I considered to be perfect. It was almost like that Euro Dreams of Sushi. I don't know if you've seen that movie. It's the sushi the same every day. It's not about perfection. It's about doing it 1% better each time. I was very much like Hiro in that sense and still am. When it came to my body stuff, it was 100% about other people's perception of me.

[29:26] Bobby Steggert: How did that evolve as you became a professional into your 20s and 30s?

[29:30] Whitney Bashor: My 20s were terrible in terms of disordered eating and trying to be small. In my 30s, I had less disordered eating in the sense that I wasn't binging and purging like I was in my 20s. But then the disordered eating was more about obedience. It was more about morality being attached to food. I was of more value if I was a smaller size, and I was of less value if I was a larger size. Now, it's definitely something that lives on the periphery of my vision. And if I get too embedded in my anxiety, it can be a coping strategy that comes back really fast, for me to feel like I'm in control. But now with my anxiety managed, this part of my obedience about the rules is able to live on the periphery.

And for me, it is a daily practice. It was really hard for me that for me, taking Lexapro meant that I gained weight. And for a while, I was like, maybe my mental health doesn't matter. And I should just be skinny, because that's what's valued more than mental health. And I'll pretend to have my shit together, and that'll be fine. And then this bigger part of my brain was like, you've tried that. You've tried to will it out of yourself, but it's not possible. Is 10 pounds worth your mental health? So I take the medicine, and I bought bigger pants, and I'm very healthy. And I'm happy, because it frees up a lot of space in my mind to think about other things than think about calories and exercise and obedience around food.

[31:19] Bobby Steggert: What other than the meds and aging has allowed you to feel more comfortable with less obedience and a little bit more mess, positive mess?

[31:30] Whitney Bashor: So I think being a mother has helped that for me. I think before I had children and being a performer, for me, equaled, I had a lot of time to think about myself and to really feel as if I was justified in being like, I am the product. So I need to put a lot of energy into me, my needs, my body, all of it. And while I take care of myself, I do not obsess about myself as much. And I do think a part of that, it has to do with my kids. It just takes a lot of time and a lot of energy. And I think part of this has to do with aging. But another thing that really happened for me as I got older is a lot of my friends, peers, people I grew up with have just started to draw the card of disease, sickness.

That's just what their body's done. And it started to make me realize that health is a very different thing than what size you are, the measurements of your body. And health is everything. When that started to happen, that was a really big reframe for me about, you say you're pursuing being healthy, but this isn't healthy. This is obsessive.

[33:00] Bobby Steggert: And your perfectionist part must have defined health by a very different metric.

[33:05] Whitney Bashor: Correct. So I say this with full respect to your parents. How are you making sure not to repeat generational patterns?

[33:09] Whitney Bashor: Yeah, so I'll start with the critical body stuff that comes up. So I have a daughter, she's six, and I have a son who's eight months old. With my daughter, I am super aware of the messaging that already comes to little girls about their bodies. When the grandmas are with her and they start talking about their own bodies in a negative way, I ask them to stop. To stop. I never talk about my body negatively in front of my kiddo. In front of either of my kiddos, but particularly in front of my daughter. There was a day, so my husband is just an absolutely athletic, fit guy and his belly is like really firm. And she was with me and I was changing and my belly is like kind of soft. I've had two kids and she was like, Mama, your belly is softer than daddy's. And I was like, it is.

She's like, why? I said, because I've had two babies. I've had two people. I housed you and your brother in there. And I just have other things I need to do besides thinking about my belly. And I kind of like my belly. I said, isn't it nice and soft? You get to lay your head on it. It's like a pillow. And she was like, yeah. And so we just left it at that. I never had that as a kid. So I feel like just the fact that she's witnessing her mother be at peace. And then when she's not at peace, work to be at peace with what is, is huge.

[34:44] Whitney Bashor: When it comes to my dad and there not being sensiveness or physical touch or praise or anything like that. I mean, that is completely different between me and my husband, that we are constantly hugging her and telling her we love her. And noticing when she tries things that she maybe doesn't know she's going to be successful at and applauding her efforts. Even when she's not the best at being like, I know it's really scary to try new things. She said to me the other day, this sweet six-year-old girl, she comes to the theater on Wednesdays when I have two show days. They all come and we have family dinner in my dressing room. And the dressing room next to me is two girls and it was one of the girls birthday.

So they had all these happy birthday decorations up and Luna walked by the dressing room and she said, happy birthday to the girl that was in there. And it wasn't her birthday. It was the other girl's birthday. And so the girl that was in there was like, oh, it wasn't my birthday. It was the other girl's birthday. And Luna took it in and we walked to her. She goes, mama, I don't like it when I make mistakes. And I don't like it when people laugh at me. And I was like, I get it. I get it. So you felt like when you were saying happy birthday, you made a mistake because you got the wrong person. And then you felt like she was laughing at you for getting it wrong. Yeah. I said, okay. I said, let me tell you what I heard.

She laughed because she was so struck by how thoughtful you were being. And sometimes when people are taken off guard, they can laugh because it's like a way of being like, oh, I wasn't accepting that. So I heard the laugh, but I heard it as like her being surprised at how thoughtful you were. And the second thing is I totally understand that you don't like making mistakes, but I want to let you know that everyone makes mistakes and nobody likes it when they feel like they've made a mistake. So that's super normal that you don't like that feeling in your body.

[36:46] Bobby Steggert: God, it's a healing for you to be able to parent like this, I'm sure. And my curiosity, are there ever instincts that you have to quell that are historic in terms of how you were parented?

[36:57] Whitney Bashor: It's hard for me to let her leave the house looking a mess. I'll be like, we have to do your hair. You want to wear that? That's what you want to wear? I don't know how to really go. And this will be my face too. I'll be like dragging my face down my skull with my hands because I'm like willing myself to be cool, but I'm like not cool in that moment because maybe she doesn't look perfect. And I have to be like, Whitney, it doesn't matter. She feels good in the outfit. She's a kid. Her hair's a little bit messy. Literally doesn't matter. I have to put that to the side. Sometimes it'll show up as like trying to do something. And I know how she could get it done. And I want to do it for her because then it'll just be done.

But I have to remind myself that the whole point is that she just figures it out on her own. So in those ways, that's hard for me to not be like, if you just put the thing in the thing, it'll be done, Luna. To be like, oh, that's an interesting way of doing it. I think that's interesting. Why don't you see what happened? It's hard for me.

[38:09] Bobby Steggert: That's totally understandable. I'm also thinking about how being a therapist has taught me to really embrace ambiguity. We grew up in the theater and everything is about delivery and delivering at the same time and succeeding and being perfect. And when you're a therapist, every day you grapple with gray area. Every day, all day. And I think it'll be a gift for you to keep doing it too. I think it's been very helpful.

[38:37] Whitney Bashor: So I work part time as a therapist. I have 10 clients that I see at a private practice during the day. And it has been very helpful in terms of performing because of that very reason of there being so much gray of the fact that good work when you're working with someone as a therapist is not about tying things up with a bow and being like problem solved. You don't need to come back. So much of it is sitting in that both and the paradox, the duality of the thing and learning to be more comfortable with it being both. And that's a beautiful thing to learn as a performer.

[39:22] Whitney Bashor: Let's say I've shown up to work for MJ and the singing was just not great. I'm tired. My kid was up three times in the night. Perfect was not in the cards today for the singing. But my exhaustion allowed me to show up in this scene where I have to fight with somebody in a really interesting way. And so it's a both and. It wasn't perfect, but it was interesting. And it's allowed me to believe more that sort of somatic note that I get in a lot of my singing, which is like, can you please make it less perfect and more interesting? To believe that that is real. And it is interesting when it's not perfect.

[40:06] Bobby Steggert: I love that you're learning that you can be interesting without suffering.

[40:11] Whitney Bashor: Yeah, it's wonderful. Again, as a performer in this very presentational industry, if you get up there, you decide to come to work and you decide to share the bits with you that are not perfect, the people who are there that day are in a way more interested. It's really helpful to have data over time that that is true. And it translates to your life as a person too, right? That you're not always showing up. I totally have my shit together all the time. Everything's together. But then you're like, let me be real. Let me be vulnerable in this moment. And this is what I'm dealing with. And it allows the other people, again, that are there that day to be like, me too. And that's interesting.