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[0:11] Robert Bannon: It's the round table with me, Robert Bannon. All right, round table family. You know, a lot of people we love the queer culture. We love we are the Pepperman says that we are where the kids come to play. So why hasn't John Duff done my show before? Where have you been, John? We've been waiting for your music. We know your music literally tours all around, it's everywhere. Performs at every, I don't know, straight gay LGBTQIA plus extravaganza that is John Duff. And we're excited that he's here. We may have some surprises. We may be talking about a new show. We may be talking about a song that he has with quite the iconic Broadway legend as well. John Duff, welcome to the round table.

[0:53] John Duff: Thank you for having me. I truly wish I was as booked as you say I am.

[0:57] Robert Bannon: John, I think you're booked.

[0:59] John Duff: Well, optics are everything, so that's exciting.

[1:02] Robert Bannon: You know, that is true. I was reading about you. Are you from Maryland?

[1:06] John Duff: I yeah, I'm from Baltimore, Maryland.

[1:08] Robert Bannon: Yeah. From Baltimore, Maryland. And you never like, is it true that like this career, this pop star, songwriter, queer performer idea was not really like always the goal goal. Was it?

[1:20] John Duff: I from the beginning I wanted to be an entertainer. And I grew up in a suburb of Baltimore where what that looks like is you do musical theater. Um, and I happen to be a very good actor, um, comedic specifically. And so I did that through high school and I went to Syracuse University for musical theater um and got my BFA. And I was on that track. Um, but I was always uh a performer. And I was always a rebel. So, as you may know, the theater is not necessarily for the rebels.

[2:01] Robert Bannon: I hear you.

[2:02] John Duff: Uh, but I did work in New York for uh a few years, and I did some regional theater back when I was reading and researching about you, and then somehow, somehow, it says if this is true, that you got encouragement from Perez Hilton while working in a production and then like encouraged to move to get and Perez has been on the show, and we love the that like encouraged you to go to like you were not in LA, you were not, you know, West weehoing it up.

[2:31] John Duff: Listen, I was riding the subway in New York in 2012, and I overheard two guys on the train talking about a show that they had written, and I asked if I could audition, and they said we already did the callbacks, and I said, I don't care, I'm really good. And they gave me the sides, and it was this Save by the Bell musical, and it was a workshop, and I got Slater and I did the workshop, and then they wrote another show that got them the money to put the Save by the Bell show off Broadway at Theater 80 in St. Mark's Place. Uh, and they called me back to do the show. So that was supposed to be three months, and it ended up going for two years. And uh that led me to working with Dustin Diamond, the original Screech on that show, which led me to doing a Full House musical with National Lampoon in Toronto, Canada, with Perez Hilton as Danny Tanner.

And uh I would get to the theater really early because we had this great basilica, and I would play the piano and warm up and do my little songs, and he showed up early one day and said, Did you write that? You knew you're actually very good, and you should move to LA and pursue songwriting. And he was the type of person that was so critical that when he said something nice, you were like, Oh, that's probably true. Um, so yes, he's partially responsible for this monstrosity.

[3:56] Robert Bannon: I love it while we're talking, and we're gonna talk about a new single, but I want everyone to know that you can follow John on Instagram, you could go to I am John Duff, and you could follow the whole saga and situation, what you called it monstrosity, and we're gonna be talking about his brand new single, Hoe is Life, wherever music is heard, you could be streaming it. I want you to tell us about the idea that you were gonna write a song girly, which was at that time. What do you attribute the kind of viral moment? Was it the Mariah? If you don't know it, it's an homage to the Mariah that a lot of the artwork, a lot of the stuff. What was it that kind of okay?

[4:30] John Duff: So the Mariah just takes the cake because as it turns out, it's the strongest visual. Um, but I in the all the promo for it, I did Beyonce, I did Madonna, I did Britney Spears, I did Christina Aguilera. All in the music video, I did Janet Jackson and Toni Braxton in the promotional artwork. Um, and look, this was 2018, and I shot it all in 2017. I wrote the song in 2016, the day after the Pulse nightclub shooting. Uh, I was so angry, and I went to sit at the piano and say, 'I'm going to write a song that you know expresses how I felt in that moment.' And what came out was this sort of celebration of my can I say words? And yeah, yeah, my faggotry, and it was girly. And um, then the song got produced, and I sat on it.

A lot of fear because at the time I was new in LA, and everyone was saying, just be a good looking guy and sing. You got a great voice. Don't do the gay stuff. That's not cool. Um, and it wasn't at the time, it really wasn't. Nobody was this is before Todrick even did Nail Tease. So this was a while ago. Um happened, and I referenced every single thing that I was told I wasn't allowed to do when I was a kid. All the talent show acts I've dreamed of, all the things I was doing in the basement when nobody was watching. I said, we're gonna do that and we're gonna do it right. Um for little me, you know, and I think it was an authenticity crossed with a discomfort of the audience that made people respond.

[6:11] Robert Bannon: Well, you have been known to be provocative in that way. I mean, your music is about adult subject matter, it's very um some of your music is is very grown. It's for grown gays and and for people out here, like you're not. I don't know what I'm saying, John, but it's fun.

[6:29] John Duff: Look, the Spice Girls were making records about sex in 1997 on the first album that eight-year-olds were buying. It has been commonplace for heterosexuals to talk about their sex to six-year-olds all the time. So I'm not trying to do that. I just wanted to create subject matter that I had never heard. And a lot of the songs like Hokey Pokey, you might reference, where I sample the Hokey Pokey and talk about having my pussy eaten. Um, that I wrote for a girl, and it was 2020, and the world was tense, and I said, I'll record it. Um you know, yeah, the music all like he's his music is out. I mean, you could go find the there's a whole bunch of music, and some of them, you know, depending on I can't show everything that you've put out, but I can, but you should look for it because John, do your thing.

I you're very fascinating to me because you are very honest about your complex sexuality and your journey about gender, sexuality and gender being two different things, but you have talked about your journey into your sexuality. You've been called too girly and too feminine, and on television, like shows that are we all know by famous people saying you are you know very homophobic, transphobic things about you. How do you just own who you are? You're very authentically you.

[7:46] John Duff: Um you know, I live right next to a cemetery here, and I walk through it every day, and I look around and I think, um, this is going to be every person whose opinion I am concerned with, and myself as well. Um, so I don't have too much time to worry about what they think because I also walk through all these beautiful, beautiful tombstones. I think what I don't know who any of these people are, and I'm sure plenty of embarrassing things happen to them, or I'm sure they lived a life of sadness because they didn't get to be who they wanted to be. So I just kind of live in the moment and I hate boxes, so I just like that what I want.

[8:27] Robert Bannon: I like that, and I think that you are a modern and important lesson. What you talk about in terms of sexuality is we're always trying to be put in a box, people are always trying to define who you are, and no one can tell any of us who we are. You're allowed to make that decision for yourself.

[8:41] John Duff: Yeah, well, and you look, you know, I always have a great sense of humor about all of it, even when I'm doing the sexy, sexy thing. If you I'm I'm very Cole Porter, where I think, how many dirty phrases can I get into one thing? It's not, I'm not coming at it like let me really turn these people on. If it does that, that's wonderful. To me, it's a game of wits. And in the origins of popular music, we actually understood the more verses you could write, and the more clever you could get, didn't matter how dirty it got. It was a testament to your wit. Um at this point, wit is out the window, and it's all only like depth and just like see through me. I don't need that. I like to explore my identity.

[9:20] Robert Bannon: Yeah, well, I love it. I'm here for it, John Duff. John, my question to you is Hoe is Life, which is the new single, which is quite the title, and features Lillias White, who is quite the superstar.

[9:33] John Duff: Yes, Tony winning.

[9:35] Robert Bannon: Uh in our second collaboration.

[9:39] John Duff: In your second collaboration, because I was going to say you have already sung uh a song with Lillias White in the past. How did you meet Lillias? It's High Heels is the other song. How did you meet Lillias White? How did you get her to sing with you? How did you get her to sing a song called Hoe is Life?

[9:54] John Duff: Well, okay, I'll start at the beginning, right? Lillias White, the first I hear of Lillias White is what we've all heard, which is as the lead muse in Hercules, and like whoa, you don't forget it. Well, yeah, like I'll know it. Um, then I went to college for musical theater, and I was writing a 13-page paper on Cy Coleman, and uh in that I listened to all of Cy Coleman's work, and there was this recording on the Adler Um Bach and Coleman live recording, ABC recording of um Lillias singing The Oldest Profession, and it's about 13 minutes long, and I was completely blown away.

[10:40] Lillias White: Hi, you guys.

[10:48] Robert Bannon: We are so honored and excited. We were just waxing poetic about you, your voice, and the work that you've done, and how John Duff has corrupted you to say all these crazy things in a song.

[10:50] Lillias White: No, Cy Coleman started it. I had no it started a long time before Psychology even. But um I'm glad to be here. I'm trying, you know, I'm not really good with this stuff here. I'm trying to get you on my computer. But anyway, I got you here.

[11:21] Robert Bannon: Well, Lillias White, I just want to say that we have done this show here. You have been the guest that we've wanted to have because we are so honored and have watched and adored you. And Lillias White, I've only met at the Lunel comedy show at Caroline's Comedy Club backstage. And I said, Lillias White, your voice has raised all of us, and it sure has.

[11:42] Lillias White: Wow, thank you. Thank you for that. That was a great show that night, by the way.

[11:48] John Duff: She is a trip and she's been here, and she's a who she also would get me in a lot of trouble.

[11:52] Lillias White: Like John is is in his provocative nature.

[11:56] Robert Bannon: Who John and John today, you look like you're 17. How do you do that?

[12:00] John Duff: Money.

[12:01] Lillias White: Huh?

[12:04] Robert Bannon: Well, Lillias, I asked him and he was explaining how he got you to sing on your second track with him. The song is called Hoe is Life. You've played a Lady of the Night and won quite the accolades and awards for it. So when you heard it, what made you say, put me in the booth? Let's go.

[12:19] Lillias White: Well, you know, I I just wanted to be in the booth with him because we just have a good time in the studio. And he knows that I love doing this crazy stuff. And to be honest with you, when he called me about this podcast, I had I had I didn't remember us doing the song. Because it was like that. We did it so quickly. And and I don't remember where we were or what studio or what how this happened, but all of a sudden, here it is. Ha ha ha. And Hoe is Life, honey.

[12:45] John Duff: Well, I remember it is tattooed firmly on my heart. Um, so you know, it was a couple years ago. Yeah. Because this song is a part of a bigger project for me, and the whole thing had to be finished before I could start putting them out. Uh-huh. Um, and now we're here. And I'm just so happy that even when I sent it to you the other week and said, I'm putting this out, is that cool? You were still on board.

[13:11] Lillias White: Yeah, definitely. Hoe is Life is out wherever music is heard, and we could follow, like we said follow John on Instagram at I Am John Duff, and we could follow Lillias White Official on Instagram as well. And John, what is the theme? Like, what is the song about? Why and why is Lillias the right person for it?

[13:29] John Duff: Hypocrisy and judgment, right? It's it's it's freedom of expression and then the judgment that comes with it.

[13:36] Lillias White: Um, it's actually a complete parallel to the song My Body from The Life. Yeah, it's essentially saying this is my choice. Maybe I am a sinner. Who's gonna cast the first stone? Sorry to quote the exact direction.

[13:50] John Duff: Don't be sorry, don't be sorry. Those lyrics work well because if they're still true to this day, amen.

[13:56] Lillias White: Well, and John and I were talking about our own journeys and how I think he's a trailblazer in terms of gender and sexuality and speaking about that, and so many people in all communities need someone who's open and honest about it.

[14:08] Robert Bannon: I, while we have you here, Miss White, I would be remiss. John, I apologize, but can we just take a quick walk down Lillias White memory lane?

[14:17] Lillias White: Oh.

[14:18] Robert Bannon: Oh, how far back do you want to go?

[14:21] Lillias White: I mean, I scar back to The Wiz.

[14:23] Robert Bannon: Wow, look at her.

[14:24] Lillias White: I go back to The Wiz. I go back to the tours and the work on Dreamgirls. I go back to Cats.

[14:31] Robert Bannon: Ooh.

[14:34] Lillias White: I grew up with this person here on Sesame Street.

[14:38] Robert Bannon: Yay.

[14:39] Lillias White: If it's Chicago, if it's the Tonys for The Life, if it's growing up you on Law and Order.

[14:47] Robert Bannon: Oh my.

[14:48] Lillias White: I mean, we all talk. Before you got here, we talked about Hercules. We talked about Feel It, which was brilliant. And then just recently in Hadestown, thank you because you've been a part of the soundtrack to all of theater kids' lives and Disney life. And we're just so honored to have you here.

[15:08] Lillias White: Well, thank you so much. It's humbling when you show those pictures of the things that I've had the opportunity to do, and just show off, you know. Um, it's humbling, it really is. So I appreciate you.

[15:24] Robert Bannon: Well, you have your own album out, which is all happy songs, which is a beautiful, gorgeous album, and you gotta stream that after you stream John and Lillias singing. Just have a whole John and Lillias extravaganza.

[15:34] Lillias White: Yes, and then I have an album coming out, Sarah Vaughan. It's a tribute to Sarah Vaughan. So that's coming out the end of the year, the beginning of the new year. We're gonna have a listening party there at 54 Below.

[15:47] Robert Bannon: Oh, well, we'll stay up to date. We gotta stay up to date on that. Follow and be ready and go to 54below.org to make sure that you know when Lillias is gonna be there and do that.

[15:57] John Duff: So, Robert, I want to say when you say the word humbling, you know, looking at your own past, you know, my experience in working, having you on two of my records is humbling. And it also is so validating as a writer, because I remember there's a particular lyric in High Heels that you really love. Um, I'll take on my lips, my tongue, I'll bring the keeping them. And to me, I get comments on the internet like I can't sing or I can't write or I can't, whatever. And I think, well, Lillias White sang with me and liked my writing. So I can't be that bad, you know.

[16:31] Lillias White: No, it's not bad at all. It was fun, you know. And I love being in the studio. I mean, I love being on stage too. I love doing the nightclubs and all that good stuff, but the studio is where you can really perfect things and be more outrageous than ever. And so I think that it's a privilege and it's a gift. And I love being in the studio and creating it and having it happen on the spot and then say, okay, that's working, let's repeat it, let's overdub it, let's triple it, you know. I love doing that stuff.

[17:09] Robert Bannon: Well, Miss White, when you're in the studio, you're synonymous now with The Life, and which is why John and the press release says that you saw this, it relates to a character. How did you, as an actor, eight shows a week on stage, you show no judgment in The Life, you show the humanity behind what many people judge. And as an actor, you have to go in there and find the humanity. So what does it mean to put music out there and tell other stories that we don't get to hear?

[17:35] Lillias White: It means that we are human, and you know, me doing that role on Broadway eight times a week, you know, I had to soul search to be able to say, you know, can I do this? Is this gonna be okay? Because I had kids, and my kids at the time were preteen and teenagers. And so, you know, I had a good long talk with my mom, and my mom said, well, it's Cy Coleman, and you know, we like him because I had done Barnum with Cy. And then the role was created for me, and I explained to my kids what was up and said, this is not an option for you as a career, to be so, you know, in that role of a hooker. But I'm doing this so I can pay the bills and make sure you have shoes and so you can go to that nice boarding school and all of that.

So I think that it shows that we're human, and there's a humanity that we have to hold on to and allow people to be who they are, because it's rough out here. And I can be judgmental too, because there's some things that I see going on, and I'm like, I don't know, you know. I was speaking to a woman, a young woman who was going to have her breasts removed because she wants to be a dude. So I was okay. That kind of took me aback because that to me is very extreme, but that's my judgment of it. It's her body, and she can do what she wants to do with it. And we gotta like, you know, even me, even me, I gotta say, okay, get out of your head and what you think you would do in the situation, and just let go and let the person be who they are.

[19:28] John Duff: Yes, and that's what's so important about the song. And John, that's what you wrote the song, and you get to have Lillias White on it, and you get to perform this song. What do you hope people's message is that they take away from the song when they listen?

[19:43] John Duff: I think people should know that we're all hoes. In a late-stage capitalist society, everyone's morals are compromised for the check, and therefore you are a hoe. We are all hoes. We all out there doing what we do so we can get that dough. That's it. And we want that dough because I personally, I like jewelry. I like jewelry.

[20:06] Lillias White: Same, rubies, diamonds, sapphire.

[20:11] John Duff: Oh my, Sleeping Beauty turquoise.

[20:15] Lillias White: Yeah, all of that. I love pearls.

[20:18] John Duff: Ooh.

[20:18] Lillias White: So this is the message of the song. Get out there and sell it how you gotta sell it.

[20:24] John Duff: They can sell it their way. Let us sell it all.

[20:26] Lillias White: We can sell ours.

[20:27] John Duff: And we can sell ours. Listen, I just wanted you to know that when I make a promo for this round table show, that from now on it's gonna start with Lillias White saying, we're all hoes. Welcome to the round table.

[20:40] Lillias White: It doesn't get better than that.

[20:44] Robert Bannon: John, they're gonna say, who's Lillias White?

[20:47] Lillias White: No.

[20:48] John Duff: No, you'd be surprised. People don't, everybody don't know who I am yet, but you know, I'm working on it.

[20:54] Robert Bannon: John, you've done your, we owe you a debt of gratitude. We owe John a debt of gratitude for being out here and telling this queer community and giving art that reflects. I'm so moved by people who write love songs or write songs about romance for the same-sex couples or for queer couples because it's not out here. We hope we have to find things that matter. So thank you, John. And Miss White, you've given us a lot of joy. I want to, I have one shady question for Miss White, and it's not gonna be that shady. When you booked Hercules, yes, there were a lot of famous singers who also were called for those parts, and you booked it over every single one of them.

[21:34] Lillias White: Yeah.

[21:36] Robert Bannon: I mean, you look, you do some research, singers, y'all.

[21:41] Lillias White: I know.

[21:42] Robert Bannon: That's the voice right there.

[21:44] Lillias White: Yeah.

[21:46] Robert Bannon: The proof is in the pudding for sure.

[21:48] Lillias White: Thank you.

[21:49] Robert Bannon: But you all were friends with everyone.

[21:53] Lillias White: I mean, most of the singers were.

[21:53] Lillias White: Oh yeah, I was friends with all of those women that eventually did it.

[22:00] Robert Bannon: Yeah.

[22:00] Lillias White: Um, but I was up against some really stiff competition. Um, and I'm glad that I got to do it because it was really a great experience. I made some lifelong friends, and I have people who come up to me and say, I grew up listening to Hercules, or you know, I just decided to try my hand at acting or singing because of Hercules, and because they heard me on Hercules, so it's been a great experience. Um, I would, I'm ready to do another one or five of those kinds of things. Um, because when I was doing that, um, I had my kids, and now I don't have kids, so it's all for me now, it's for me.

[22:50] John Duff: More get all the jewelry.

[22:52] Lillias White: Get all the jewelry, but I really enjoy doing it. I do, I enjoy being in the studio, I love doing voiceovers. So if there are any voiceover hirers out there who need a good voiceover person, I can do all of that. And I can sing your demos and I'll sing at your wedding, and I can officiate your wedding if you want me to do that. And so I'm just, I'm happy to be alive. I'm happy to be here, and I'm really happy that we're doing that we did this recording because who knew?

[23:23] John Duff: She said it. Everyone is a hoe.

[23:26] Lillias White: She just said to you, pay her, and she will show up wherever you want her to be.

[23:30] John Duff: Same.

[23:31] Lillias White: We all hoes.

[23:33] John Duff: Who wouldn't?

[23:34] Lillias White: Okay.

[23:35] John Duff: I get it.

[23:37] Lillias White: I'm here for it.

[23:38] John Duff: We all love money, and we all love the song, and we all love the work that's out. Ho is Life, John Duff, Lillias White. You need to check it out. You need to listen and stream and be a part of it. And let me pitch this. You know, this song is a part of an album, it's a concept album. Everyone keeps saying it sounds like theater, musical theater. Um, I was really referencing the origins of like American pop music, which kind of is theater, especially now with half of Broadway being jukebox musicals of music pre-2015. Um, you know, what would you call Proud Mary by Tina Turner if it came out today? I guess it's theater because it's not really rock, like by today.

[24:18] Lillias White: Yeah, and that song it tells a story, right?

[24:21] John Duff: Yes, it tells a story.

[24:23] Lillias White: Proud Mary tells a story, and so I have a nine-track record coming out September 27th called Greatest Hits Deluxe Edition. It's my debut album.

[24:32] Lillias White: And I love it, I love that.

[24:34] John Duff: And I'm so happy you're a part of it, Lillias. I would have liked to have put a new version of High Heels on it, but I ran out of money.

[24:42] Lillias White: So High Heels is not gonna be on it.

[24:42] John Duff: Well, High Heels exists there right there at the top always, so this one's all the same kind of sonics that are on Ho is Life just, yeah, I do veer into some different writing styles and when we're gonna do some more.

[24:42] Lillias White: Oh, it always means so much to hear you say that.

[24:42] John Duff: Whenever, are you in LA in this moment?

[24:42] Lillias White: I'm in Provincetown because I was doing my show.

[24:42] John Duff: Oh, you're a pizza.

[24:42] Lillias White: But I'm going to LA on Sunday.

[24:42] John Duff: Okay, and you're in short, you're in New York.

[24:42] Lillias White: I'm in New York.

[24:42] John Duff: Okay, well, let's do some more.

[24:42] Lillias White: Did you say some whore or some more?

[24:42] John Duff: Both.

[24:42] Lillias White: Some whore.

[24:42] John Duff: Well listen, Lillias, I'm in Detroit right now and I'm from New York and Jersey and I'm getting married, so don't be surprised if I email you and say I got a buck or two, come sing.

[24:42] Lillias White: Oh, I would love that because we need a, you know, there's no big gay wedding, you need Lillias White.

[24:42] John Duff: That works for me.

[24:42] Lillias White: I would love that. I would love that. I love weddings, I always cry.

[24:42] John Duff: Me too, I'm gonna cry too.

[24:42] Lillias White: Oh, is that from a musical?

[24:42] John Duff: You love to cry at weddings.

[24:42] Lillias White: It may be, it's not one of the ones I did, but sweet.

[24:42] Robert Bannon: Well, we're here, we're gonna stream Ho is Life.

[24:42] Lillias White: Yes, it is.

[26:16] Robert Bannon: We're gonna get the whole John Duff album, his greatest hits, even though it's his first album.

[26:19] John Duff: So you're just a can't be funny person, John Duff.

[26:22] Lillias White: I can't even.

[26:22] John Duff: Irreverent.

[26:24] Lillias White: I am John Duff on Instagram, Lillias White official. They both have more tricks up their sleeves. You're gonna be seeing them on stages with new music and more things. And we're just so honored that you both came and hung out with me.

[26:35] Lillias White: I'm so grateful to be here with you all.

[26:36] John Duff: We love what you're doing.

[26:38] Lillias White: Thank you.

[26:40] Robert Bannon: Thank you so much.

[26:41] Lillias White: God bless you both.

[26:42] John Duff: God bless you too, honey.

[26:44] Lillias White: Everyone's a hoe.

[26:46] John Duff: Let's go.

[26:46] Lillias White: Hey, we all hoes.

[26:47] John Duff: That's what we're doing here.

[26:49] Lillias White: And we're forgiven.