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[0:00] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ariana Grande, Hi, I'm Cynthia ARIBO, and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network, visit vpn.fm, to discover more.

[0:13] Speaker 2: There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. I'm the wrong one died. I'm a wrong one died. Welcome to the wrong cat died.

[0:27] Mike Abrams: The podcast breaking on the cast, atrophy. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. He was a swing on the US national tour five, and there is a special story that we heard about a few episodes ago related to one of the things he did in the opening number. So I am very excited to dig into that. So welcome Tucker Ty Davis, and thank you for joining me.

[0:51] Mike Abrams: excited to hear about spike. You are the infamous spike that we learned about a little bit ago. So we will get into that whole shenanigans. But before we do that, I always love to start with your first time seeing the show, your backstory of the show, like, when were you introduced to cats?

[1:11] Speaker 3: I think that movie version, I think it was created in the 90s that I don't know exactly what year it was, but that was my first, yeah, like I had it on VHS. I don't know how I got my hands on it. I didn't grow up. I grew up in California, so I didn't get grow up, being able to go see a lot of theater, and what theater did come through town? I just wasn't I didn't grow up in a family that really valued that as a way to spend your time. So my first exposure was the movie, and then my second exposure was beat off at the job. Wow, I guess. And then, yeah, I never saw the show live until my first day on tour.

[1:52] Mike Abrams: So you were a family that, like, watched. You weren't the kid that saw the 1990 1998 movie and were like, I've got to do this. This is going to be my future. You weren't even really exposed to a lot of theater growing up, and then you book it

[2:06] Speaker 3: well, the booking of it was kind of long and drawn out. I actually, we can give that a little bit, but I actually come from the same audition that McCree O'Kelly did the My Fair Lady national tour audition, and that's actually how I heard about your podcast in the first place, was McCree had posted it onto his story, and I was like, Hey, I'm gonna listen to this podcast while I mow the lawn to that. Yeah,

[2:32] Mike Abrams: perfect lawn mowing material, right?

[2:35] Speaker 3: And then Jean Michel, we were just kind of talking casually, because I have, I mean, my best friend still to this day, that was I joined the cast and in 2002 in those are still some of my best friends that I will ever have. So I talked to them regularly, and when she said you were doing the show, I was like, I've got to get on this guy's podcast.

[2:57] Mike Abrams: Well, she told me, so the thing that I've now done 120 plus episodes, and it's so unique to hear all the different, like, little nuances of the show, because a lot of things don't like, you know, a lot of it doesn't change. Like, it's, you know, it's been running for 40 plus years. But then you hear these, like, will, like, regional side stories are kind of unique, different things. And when, when she told me about spike, I was like, I've, I've got so many questions I gotta know about spike. And so that was like, I immediately was like, Are you gonna introduce me? So I'm thrilled to have you here, and maybe let's just jump into this, because this might be one of the more unique things I've heard. And maybe it's not, and it just seems unique. But I basically the way she explained it to me was, is that when you in the opening number as an as a swing and ensemble character. They put you in just a very generic cats costume, and you danced and that you all nicknamed yourself spike. So like, is that? How'd that come to life?

[3:51] Speaker 3: That is partially true. So spike actually existed before me. I'm not the very first spike. I am just the spike that was around when the fan fiction internet craze for games to like hit its, you know, its first wave, so and so, it's also a partial issue. So I covered I was a kitten swing. So I covered the five male kittens, alanzo, who was the oldest of the kittens, I believe, and then like townseful, tumble Brutus, and then Mungo Jerry and miso. So Mungo Jerry mesopolis, I had my normal costumes that cost, you know, 1000s of 1000s of dollars. But when I played the three kittens, alanzo Constable, or tumble Brutus, they would put me on in this generic costume called spike. And so it was just brown and gray, generic cat, blend in, blend out, get in the show. Get out of the show. And so one thing they did that was really sweet of them, because, because I was on sometimes in one week, I would do all five roles. You know, sometimes in one day I would do two different roles. Sometimes we were doing split tracks. Is that they made me. Shoes still in spite colors, but they made them look like the shoes that like Alonzo would wear, or the pounce would wear. So that way, so when I was on stage, I could look down at my feet and not get confused about which cat I was playing that day at that show.

[5:13] Mike Abrams: So your shoes were your swing like, that's how you knew who you were.

[5:19] Speaker 3: That's how I knew who I was. People sometimes knew I was. I would follow the same makeup plot with the spikes, with but, but with Spike color. So they were like, kind of like, silver, gray, black, a little bit of yellow, nothing, really, all that you need. But I ended up being spike a lot. And like, there was a spike wig, there was a spike, everything, and it wasn't really known, I don't think, until someone started on one of the fan pages, like talking about this cat that they couldn't recognize, you know, because these people go to the show hundreds of times. We had people on tour that, like, got married in the lobby of the theater in Vancouver of one of our shows. And so they're very, as you know, like intimate knowledge and very intimate knowledge of the show. And so I kind of got spotted, and then I, I dropped it at the stage door. Somebody asked me one time, what cat were you playing? I was like, I was playing pencil, but I looked I was wearing spiked costume. And then it kind of exploded online a little bit. And I there was a, there was a little bit of a spiked fan club for a while, and I would get all of these gifts for this, like unheard of cat that no one had ever, you know, I seen before. I love

[6:32] Mike Abrams: so much, because there are super fans who, like, will go and watch one track, or go and watch because somebody's on. And like they are, they are passionate and deep, and they know everything. And I've always made fun of Peter, who was just Gus bus, Gus cat for the onset, like for the dance, but spike is not one I'd heard of, and not one I even see on the like, a lot of the lure. And so when I heard it, I'm like, Okay, this is unique, but it sounds like it was just a cost saving metric. It was like, let's just make sure we don't have to make three different costumes for our swings here. We're going to make one and just put you in different shoes, and then that's who you know, who to dance. And you're just going to be one of the kittens,

[7:11] Speaker 3: yeah. And that's basically what it was. And I was on stage like I when I was on tour. I was on stage more in the show than I was off the show. I was going in and out of the company a lot, and so it was a cost saving measure, but, but then after people got a hold of it, and I sort of kind of fun with it, as it kind of became a thing in our cast, when spike was on, and he sort of had his own kind of constant storyline, even though I was doing everybody else's track, I was Always a spike went on. He was always like, the youngest kid on stage. So,

[7:47] Mike Abrams: what is spikes backstory? Like? Did you think about spikes full story?

[7:53] Speaker 3: I don't, I don't recall if I ever, like, went through the whole entire story. You know, when we were I was put into the show, like, by myself with two other actors. Eventually, we all went into the show at the same time. But I learned the show in a studio with no set, with no anything. I joined the company after they opened, just I think it was like 10 or 12 weeks after they had opened, they had a few people sort of hide us out of it. And so three of us came on. And so we didn't get a lot of the story until we got into the regular playing company, and they would kind of let us know what they had decided as a tribe. And so we would try to play those things. But eventually, I think I got to a place with Spike where I was like, I'm going to be where I need to be and lift the person I need to lift and go through the oven when I need to go through the oven. But I'm playing spike, because I really identified with this kind of, like, I mean, Spike is kind of like a badass name. Like, if you know you saw spike in a junkyard, I think you would be kind of like a force to be reckoned with. So I was kind of known for, like, just going on stage and messing with everybody and just being a really rambunctious cat that tried to keep other actors on their toes during the show.

[9:11] Mike Abrams: I love it. So did you? So you like, let's, let's make up spikes three words. What would spikes three words be?

[9:17] Speaker 3: Oh, energetic, mischievous and playful. Okay,

[9:22] Mike Abrams: so I, I there's so much to that, because that is, I love, I love the creativity and also the fun that comes with this. Of like, Hey, we've got, you're, you're on a long tour, you're on, you know, you're going on frequently as a swing. It is a ton of work, a very grueling and demanding show, and it's like we're not even going to give you the the different suit, like leotards and suits for, you know, for each cat. And so it's like we're just gonna make up our entire own character. But my question, I guess my next question for you is, is that you kind of mess with the other actors, right, like you knew, because they their only indication of who you are, your shoes at this moment, that. Did they play into spike? Like, did they think about, oh, I'm bombed. Ball arena is going to be interested in spike today? Or, like, how did that work? Or was it mostly just like a you kind of go in and live your spike life?

[10:13] Speaker 3: I Well, I think what would be the most popular answer for that question would be that I would go on and do the same track as the actor before me, whether my intentions were the same or not. And I really did try to do that. I won't say I was very young when I joined the tour. I was 20 years old, you know, I was I was a kid. I was having a lot of fun. I did get into a little bit of trouble here and there from messing around too much, or, you know, maybe not being exactly where I was supposed to be at the right time. So in it was a big learning curve for me. So when I figured out that that was a really important thing to do that, I always made sure that I was in the right spot and did the right thing. But some actors really, really loved me, and some just wanted to, like, do their show and, like, leave me alone, you know, like, I remember specifically one Demeter was like, and I won't, you know, I won't throw anybody into the bus, but there was one Demeter who just I was, I was a sweaty dancer, and so I was, like, always leaving like, puddles on stage. And I could just always knew when I would come on stage that she was like, not about the spike energy. So just, you know, I'd leave that to meet her alone and go find somebody else to mess with.

[11:27] Mike Abrams: That is, yeah, swing. I mean, the concept of swing, I before this podcast, I did, I didn't know a lot about it, and it's fascinating to me, just in itself, of like going, especially a show like cats, which is very physical, demanding a ton of dancing, like everybody's on stage. A lot of the show, you've got to be in your place. And I remember one swing, the first thing I said was just, like, just don't get anybody hurt. Like, just, so that's the number one goal, is just don't injure anybody. But then I love the idea that you got to almost create this own character that doesn't exist in this world besides the person before you that did it and bring this kind of different energy to a kitten. And because some of the backstories, I'm like, tumble Brutus or alanzo or pounceville, it's light to begin with. Like there's only so much lure with those characters, because they're not, they're not given a lot, and so you almost got to create your own version with Spike.

[12:19] Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm sure you've finding out this podcast. I've been in a lot of companies, so I did do the tour, and I also did like, I did it with Ken page down in Houston and Texas, and I did it and in Chicago as well, and I did it at another theater in Pennsylvania, and I've done the show a lot of times. And so wherever you go, as you know, like, the the story changes, but the basics kind of always stay the same. As far as, like, what is the hierarchy of cats? Like, what is like, who ranks over who? I think, has always stayed the same. And so I think that's like, one way that I kind of felt that I could get in and out of a cast pretty easily. Is just respect the hierarchy, you know, like I knew I was a kitten. I knew I had to be crawling. I knew, you know, that that not you know, I wasn't gonna roll up and, like, mess with jelly Alan, or, you know, a gust, for that matter, because it really does, like, there is this sense of the show that does feed into your real life when you're on the tour, because it encompasses so much of your life. You know, you're with people non stop.

[13:32] Mike Abrams: Oh, definitely, there's a lot of relationships that stem from this, and marriages that stem from the show. And you're, you know, it's, it is, I mean, I just would assume, like, I always related it to sports teams. It's like, if you're on a on the road with them at all times and spending all your time together, you you become friends, or you become co workers, you know, like, there's some version of that. You either, either have to deal with them and put up with it, or you become really close. And I think it's a really cool part of the tour. And I always think, like, you know, you I played hockey growing up like we weren't rolling around on top of each other, like you all are on cats, like on our team, on our team, like you're still close, but you and cats get really close. But did you So you did it regionally? Did you bring spike to the other like, to the regional productions, or is that? Was that purely a tour thing?

[14:20] Speaker 3: Well, I'd like to only, you know, because spike is not it's I never, ever met another spike, you know, no one ever, nobody else ever played spike, except for me, when I was in the company, you know. So I didn't get to see anybody else bring that spike energy. So I also, I think that, like my spike was a lot of who I was, and I always take kittens in the show, so I always did kind of bring that mischievous, feisty energy to my spikes. But in the tour and, I mean, in the regional productions I played, I was always, you know, I was usually palatable, and I got to give like a little bit of a shout out to palatable, because I feel like he has a super under appreciate. Is an under recognized cat in the tribe and in the junkyard. And I don't know if this has been addressed on your podcast or not, but constable is like the second best male dancer in the entire show. He's always the most athletes understudy, and if you watch him, he's doing all of the same work and footwork and choreography that most athletes dream for the entire rest of the show, but he gets none of the credit. So I always get kind of a little bit of shout out to constable. That's

[15:30] Mike Abrams: interesting. Yeah, possible. I think a lot of times with the kittens, it's like, I get to talk to, usually a swing and somebody or someone who did it, but not someone who was, like, it was the number one thing, or the only thing they did. So it's like, I haven't really dug. I'm sure we've dug in some, because I've talked to almost every cat at this point, but not nearly as much as as you get versus a Tugger or some of the other, you know, the other ones, but, but, yeah, it is the the kittens do. The kittens do a lot of work. And I think it's like, it's one of the ones where the super fans recognize it, but the kittens are the, usually the ones doing the lift or doing the tumbling or doing all the other stuff that is extremely challenging, but doesn't have the song number necessarily related to it. So that's why they don't have the, to your point, the hierarchy that you that you deal with, with the age in different cats. I want to go back to a little bit of the now you're doing it regionally. Does the regional theaters like, Did you all have like, I think spike stems from the circumstance of not even having the the costume. But like, when you went regionally, did you have, like, your swings have the costume, and that's why spike doesn't exist. Like a spike, uniquely tour five thing.

[16:43] Speaker 3: No, it was, I know that it, that it was where I got there. I don't know if it was on the tour before that and I, and I'm not sure if it lived on. I don't know where all the lore came from. All I know is that when I showed up, there was a special wig, and it had the name spike on it. And I remember walking in for my fitting, and I was like, oh, you know, there's only this wig in here for me, but I don't know who spike is. So this is kind of confusing. And so my first day on tour, when I went for my wig fitting, is when I actually found out about that bringing up the costumes for regional production. The costumes are such an intricate part of the show, right? Like, yeah, it was, I don't know it's a it's the show is pumped full of sex and sexuality. And I think that's sort of like a product of like when it came about, and that it was sort of like this first one of the first musical she's like synthesized music, and it's orchestra, and so so much of our physicality, I think, that we learned through the tribe is like, about feeling confident in your body and feeling confident with, like, almost no clothes on, yeah, and then you would get to these regional productions, and the costumes did not inspire the same amount of confidence when you put it on. You know, when you went into the company, it was a big show. And so they would make you new leotards and spray paint it on your body so that it would like be right for your figure, and show off your good spots and hide your not so great spots. And the regional production, I think a lot of times we were having to call on, like, other forms of confidence for ourselves, and then also, like, tweaking our own wigs and hair and costumes to make them look as snatched as possible.

[18:38] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I've, I know I've talked to a few people who've done it regionally and or just in general, like even some of the more recent tours, and it was like, Yeah, I wore this person's leotard. And it was like, this person for Broadway, or this person, like, they just kind of have commandeered it almost. Or even horror stories, of like, there's just a set of costumes that were in some warehouse that got pulled out for regional and who knows how long they've been sitting there, and all of a sudden, or that's your what you get. But I just find it fascinating that in a production as big as the US national tour of cats, that they were just like, yeah, we're just gonna use the same one wig, one thing, and just give you some different shoes. When these are like characters that people know,

[19:22] Speaker 3: well, you know, when I came onto the show, I did get a couple of ratty old things that had, like stitching named spike. And then when I started, sort of, and I was in the company for, you know, a little over a year and a half, I guess. And so there was a big day where I got a fitting and I got my own costumes. There was a couple months into my stay there, and it felt really special. And I did realize that not everybody gets that but, but when I came into the company, it was still, it had just closed off Broadway, and so I think they were still putting a lot. Time of any interns, I remember getting my master police costume for the first time, and like, putting my fingers together, and the whole thing lights up, and having, like, you know, an intermission or whatever, before you go on the wig guy, David would come over and, like, put glass in your wig, and so it's sparkle and all of these really cool things. So so the costumes are in turn the show. And if that's missing out, it doesn't always go today,

[20:29] Mike Abrams: yeah, we're gonna take a quick break, and then we back for more of the wrong cat died. I want to go back to the internet lore that happened from this, because, like a lot of my podcast stems from this internet lore of, like, being able to see the fan Wikipedia page or just like, what I've seen online, but spike doesn't exist on the stuff that, like, at least the places I've generally gone to. So when it kind of blew up, what was, what was that like? Where was it like, how did you know you clearly dropped it at a stage door? But like, was it? Where'd this take off?

[21:04] Speaker 3: I, you know, I don't, I will have to go back and look. If I'm gonna go back and look, I'm gonna send you some stuff on that. But I remember that it was Miss Jellicle. Was, like, the

[21:13] Speaker 3: owned the, I don't even know what it would have been called back then, I had, like, a compact computer. I bought Radio Shack that like sometimes I could plug in if you're staying in the fancy hotel. So I didn't participate. We didn't participate in 2002 of it as much as it was going on. But, and I don't, I will have to go back and look and see where it existed. One of the coolest things, though, and I was listening to a couple of the other ones, is that after it did hit the internet and that people were talking about it, and I started to get my own fan gifts as well. So I have like these, these original animated sketches of Spike, and I have a beanie baby that somebody painted like spike and left for me at the stage door. And all of these, like, like, one person sent us candy, and it was all Jelly Bellies and the colors of your cat, and she painted the outside of like a Chinese to go container, and it was spikes. And so she's painted mine spike colors. And so I did, I did keep a lot of those. So those are sitting up in a barn, and I'm in a box somewhere in my barn. So I do exist, but I would have to go and look back, and maybe I can send you some pictures of it.

[22:33] Mike Abrams: Yeah, we need to get some pictures of this, of some of the spike stuff to put back on the, you know, modern internet. I mean, I'm sure this all like, is archived somewhere in the depths of the internet, because I know there are some I've talked to, some of the super fans in the past who who were part of that, like Live Journal, and some of the like, earlier days of stuff, like, well before I knew what cats was, let alone cats internet lore. So it'll be interesting to see if, like, what that looks like what that looks like today, of being able to bring that back and see who of those fans remember this, because, like, I know your cast remember, that's how I learned about it. But I'm really curious to hear when I throw that, when we throw this out to the world, who, who remembers spike, who was part of it, who saw spike perform? Who, like, who knows more about the story? Because it is just such a very unique piece of the history of the show. That is what I've almost enjoyed from this podcast most is getting to learn these like little nuggets of things that almost didn't exist anywhere else for the longest time, but happened because of the show was created as a world where all this stuff could could live and like you could be Spike. Spike could be a new cat, and you could have a whole spike back story, and that's okay, because that won't change the actual musical,

[23:50] Speaker 3: right? And I'm sure that more spikes will resurface. I'm also, I was thinking about it today too, getting ready for this recording. It was like, if I you can, since doing cats, I've done some other shows, and, you know, we went through lots of like, media training for them. And I'm sure internet was, if we knew what we know about it now, back then, I probably would have gotten in some trouble on some level, for dropping the spikes bomb at the stage door in the first place. I just wonder about that too. You know, there, I hope there's other spikes out there listening. I'm

[24:22] Mike Abrams: sure. I mean, I'm sure there were, because, like, your tour, the fifth tour went on for like, 10 years. So there's a lot of time where there's before you, there's after you, there's there's a lot of that one production style that I'm sure there's probably more spikes. I just haven't run into that story. And like, there's only so much from even the super fans that I get, because there's so much history that it's like everyone kind of is an expert in their own thing. It's like they know a lot about this, or they know a lot about the dance or the differences in the choreographies or the different there's a lot of like, the role playing with other cats. And Tumblr, and there's too much, and there's cosplayers. There's too much in the world to live in. Like, I live in a very narrow subsection of the cats community, and I'm aware of it. There's artists, there's, you know, there's, there's so many things. And I'm like, I want to just talk about the world built and the decision made at the very end of the show, and that's all I care about. And it's unique. As I've talked to more cats fans of like, all the different things that they're interested in and obsessed with, and what it brought to them as, like, a very unique part of their life. And that's a cool thing about this show, to me, is that, like there is, it's an easy punch line, so it's made fun of in so many TV shows. Everyone knows about it. People either love it or hate it, but the people that love it have a very specific reason for why they love it, and that's, I think, really fun and cool, especially as you think about a lot of the other classic shows where, you know, I'm not going to pick one and call them out, because I'll get a lot of people that hate on me. But there are some that I've seen that I'm like, sure that was that was interesting. It's like, why'd you like it? I was like, well, it's the very first show I saw. I'm like, well, that doesn't mean it's good. It just means that it's nostalgic. And that is where at least cats, most people can give me, like, a very specific reason on, like, why this particular part of the number they love or they relate to this cat or this thing kind of goes in there, and that's that's different to me than a lot of other shows, which I love. And I'm glad that spike story will get to be told even more.

[26:34] Speaker 3: Yeah, I will say that it's, it's the most fun and the most collaborative I've ever had to be on stage. I it was, it was one of my very first professional gigs. I was very lucky. I was very fortunate to get such a great job so early in my career. But it changed, I mean, it changed my life. I went on to do the show almost 800 times, and, you know, 800 performances of the show, not including times that I sat in the audience, you know, and watched it as an off stage swing. But it's a show. I mean, I've definitely my my my cat stays. Are done unless I directed or choreograph it. But you don't want to be Gus will live on. I don't have the chops to be guys. You gotta remember, I was a kitten swing. I am a dancer who can sing. So I could, you know, I could redirect myself, but, you know, I think I lived it, and I did it because I run a youth theater company now where I live, and so they keep, it's a non for profit that gives free theater education to all youth in our community, and they keep teasing me about when we're going to do cats, and the answer is probably never, because it's also an incredibly hard show to do. You know, you're up on stage for for a couple hours, you know, singing at the top of your range and kicking yourself on the side of the head and doing backflips at the same time. It's just, it's a hard show today.

[28:05] Speaker 3: it. That's why a performer, you fall in love with it, because you you either are able to do that work eight times a week or you're not.

[28:15] Mike Abrams: Yeah, and I think you know it is. It's like a little community. Once you've been in a like, it almost seems like a fraternity type of world of like you, you did it, you suffered through it. You like went through that hard, rigorous, detailed like learning of the show and doing the show and physically doing the show so often that you've come to respect a little bit more. I love that you have a youth theater, because where I'm from, there is going to be, and I don't know when exactly a two day youth cats production on the calendar, and my mom volunteers at that particular place. And I keep saying, like, you know, you've got one of the leading experts in your family right here to help give the backstory. And then I'm like, wait a second, maybe I'm not the right person to do this, because if it's going to be youth, I want to be like, let me tell you demeanor, about your backstory with Macavity, and then let me explain to you what the ball is in. Like, there's got to be some hybrid of like, All right, what's the fun that they're going to do with kids of just singing and dancing and having a good time versus like, I also don't understand how you do it for two days. Like, it's crazy enough to me that some regional productions do it for like, three weeks. Like, it's so physical and challenging.

[29:29] Speaker 3: How do you like, how like it is so hard. How could you do all that and rent the car? I hope my costume, they're not building them, and do that for two days. It seems that seems like a way too big of a project, and that's why I don't

[29:44] Mike Abrams: do it. Yeah, I have a lot of follow up questions, but it's, I don't think it's till next year, and I don't know if they've really decided all that stuff, my guess is it's probably going to be some type of, like, choir performance, of it, versus the actual or, like, a little bit of dancing and. Not the actual story of it, because it's a kids production, and I think, like young kids, not, you know, not like a high school production, it's, I think it's like children, so they're not going to do two and a half hours with intermission type of thing. But I keep offering, I keep saying, I know a whole lot, and I'm here, and I will happily come and and chat, but we'll, see that's one of these days, one of the backs. Yeah, there'll

[30:22] Speaker 3: be a lot of cats. There'll be a lot of cats for you to interview.

[30:28] Mike Abrams: Yeah, a bunch of I don't, I don't think I need kids on the podcast yet, although I do, I do want to hear one child's perspective, seeing it without knowing of like, what is that? What does that feel like if you're 10? Like, is it just singing and dancing cats that you kind of enjoy. And I've talked to some kids, like, one of my friends brought their their daughters to the show in DC on the most recent tour. And, like, I spend time with them after, and they just love the costumes and the dancing and like the fun, but they can't articulate the fun of it. It's just like, Oh yeah, it's unique and different. But

[31:00] Speaker 3: I think that's honestly like, yes. Like, I remember my sisters and my cousins. I remember them bringing backstage Pantages in LA when I was playing with Stop, please. And and we got to, like, paint all those faces in. And they got to, like, live the cat stream, and they got to meet the cats backstage and go in the audience and watch it. But I think also, most adults who see the show can't articulate No, I mean, maybe some of them,

[31:22] Mike Abrams: no, a lot of them can't, you know, no, it's, I mean, before I started this podcast, i i The first time I saw it, I literally walked out and a lot of the joke of this podcast, the parody, came from me making a joke of, like, what did I watch? Like, I understood the redemption arc of Grizabella. I understood that there's this, like, tribe and cultish vibe, and I was overwhelmed by the rest, the rest, I'm just like, this is X Factor on drugs. Like, this is, that's all. That's all I kept saying is, I just watched the X Factor on drugs, and they picked a winner at the end. And that was, that was it. But then it was like, as you learn more, it's like, Oh, that makes sense. This makes sense. Like, all these decisions make a ton of sense, but you either have to deep dive into it, like I have watch the 98 movie over and over again, read the lure online, or see it hundreds of times, like to really kind of start doing it because there's too many cats on stage most of the time that you can't physically watch them all. Like I can't. I couldn't keep my eyes on when I went to see the tour. I'm like, Well, I want to see what the twins do, because that's a really fascinating story arc. I'm like, I couldn't even find them half the time. And then I do see them. I'm like, I'm missing what's happening over here. And so it's just a little sensory overload when you watch it as a spectator and real, like as a live production, that you're not gonna be able to pull that stuff out.

[32:42] Speaker 3: Yeah, I wonder if, like, because I know when we were in the show, we were really encouraged to to bring our to our tribe would make its own and that our tribe would make its own decisions about what happened in in that was encouraged because, because if we didn't know what we were doing on stage. And if we were invested in it, then nobody else would be invested in it, either. And there wasn't so much about whether the audience understood your story as much as that. They just understood that you had a story. And I just I wonder when you know, Jillian Lynn was such a huge part of the creation of the show, the original choreographer and Trevor Nunn, so I wonder if they had any idea, because nothing had been song cycles had been done before, but this is different than a song cycle. You know, it's so I wonder if they had any idea that it would explode way or that, or that it would be so unique from cast to cast, to production to production. I can't

[33:37] Mike Abrams: fathom that they did. I feel like this is one of the things that, when you know what, the way the show gets put up is, it's gonna start, you're gonna have some like, there's obviously a lot of thought that goes into this. This wasn't just like, you know, wing completely, but I don't think they probably spent or thought that there would be a world where somebody would take the time to talk about all the things pouncival could possibly have done with his backstory in life, like, outside of the two and a half hours you get outside the ball, what's this look like, or what was last year's choice or next year's choice? Like, a lot of these things, I'm sure, were never thought of, but a lot of stuff was very well thought through. And there are some angles of the story, but I've compared it a lot to Harry Potter, or, I mean, even the Twilight, a lot of stuff that has the fan fiction, where a world was created that has a lot of options, and there's some characters developed, but they're not fully developed. They're, like, partially developed. And so because you don't you're not gonna be able to fill in the blanks of like, you get only pieces of this information. And so I definitely think that that's what cats has turned into over these years now, which is, there is your you can only play them. So, like, you can't play too far away from Tugger or most awfully, or Isabella, but you can play some minor things. Like, if you're Grizabella, do you play Victoria as your daughter, or not? Do you like, like, there are some little things like that that you. Could make small tweaks to and it won't change the show and won't change the production. Most people won't even notice it, but it will change a little bit of the vibe that happens. Of, like, tug of Moustafa, please. Are they together? They best friends, bomb demeanor. Are they together? Sisters or best friends? Like, how does that? Like, all of those things. Are still bomb and Demeter gonna sing the cavity and they're going to do their dancing, but they could have some different vibes

[35:24] Speaker 3: they do, you know, I think that, you know, if I'm in Demeter, I mean, obviously they share a tormentor, you know, that is their major vibe together, thinking about, you know. And one thing was Dami listening to you talk. Because I remember when Nikki zandro, she was a swing on our torch, when she would go on for jelly Lorem, and I would be on for spike, I do remember that we had a secret family unit. We were a mother and and son, and I never I really didn't dawn on me until I was listening to you talk about whether or not Victoria is cruising fellows daughter, because that was always there was no, you know, some of these things weren't answered in the cast, or it was a different answer for different people. You know, you know, because it was, it was, it depends on who is known for Victoria, and depending on who was on for syllabus, really. You know, either syllabi or Victoria are, you know, possibly that the offspring or the offshoot of that character, which you know, but then who you know would always get some the conversation. These are the conversations we would have to on tours. It's like we get into. Well, if that's the case, then, then, how did the more did the kid come from? You know? Who's the father of the cat?

[36:40] Mike Abrams: You know? Yeah, this is exactly what I've dug into. This is literally the purpose of this podcast has turned into is originally, it was me explaining why I just thought Griswold is the wrong choice and why everyone was more worthy. And then it's turned into, wait a second, everyone has a slight different variation of this. Let's hear what everyone's version is, because it's so unique. So I love that we can add some lore here. That jelly Lorem is spikes. Mom, did you figure out the dad,

[37:08] Speaker 3: well, I mean, I think obvious. I mean, I guess I in my head, it's just Gus because they're, you know, because, you know, they're, they're, they've got that connection and they acting, you know, I guess it was, I guess. But I go to what was her name when she was the opera singer, I can't remember, griddle bone. Griddle bone, yes, yes, yes, yes. So I think that, like, we would just connect it to, like, a griddle bone situation, okay, griddle bone and Gus and growl. Tiger would, would have this offshoot called spike.

[37:46] Mike Abrams: I love that, that it's not even it's like the story within the story within the story. So it's griddle bone and growl. Tigers kid is spike.

[37:56] Speaker 3: So, but you know, you come up with these things when you when you are when you don't know what city you're in, and you don't know what my kid is, and you're sitting across from somebody who you're pretty sure you know who they are, but you definitely know who their cat is, and you're pretty sure you know who the human is behind it all. And, you know, I think, I think it's like, like we were talking about before. It's like, it's the magic that just happened with the show. There's so much unsaid during the show that it allows there to be so much to say about it. Yeah, outside of the production, I

[38:29] Mike Abrams: love it, all right. Let's do some rapid fire, because I want to get to the most important question here. So if you could go on for one cat any night, forget male, female. If you could do it, sing, dance, just one night. Who would you want to go

[38:44] Mike Abrams: good. Yeah, love to go back for South Wales. Close the fingers, get the light of costume. Have some fun.

[38:50] Speaker 3: Yeah, it was the hardest. It was the hardest dance ever. Like I used to, no joke, I don't want to make anyone girls now out there, but I used to literally vomit in my mouth on stage and just like, back it down the chute. And I remember a philadelph Looking at me. Her name is Katie water, and she was like, don't, don't do it. And I would turn backstage and I'd go for my little saloon. I'd be like, I would be like, in my it was so incredibly hard to that role. I left the company, and I got to do most athletes for, like, the last four weeks of my touring career with, with, with that company. And so it was, it was really special. It was something I had to really work for. And so if I could have the stamina to go back on stage one more time to do that, I would definitely do

[39:42] Mike Abrams: my stuff. Nice. Who are your favorite and least favorite? Cats? Characters, not actors, characters.

[39:48] Speaker 3: Okay? My favorite is Cassandra, because there's like nothing to her, and she has this way of like, slinking around stage and she thinks. In this low, kind of like sultry voice about the Pharaoh, and then she's gone, and you never hear from her again, really. And so I thought I always wanted to be Cassandra, and her tail was, like, really sleek, and she could whip it around really quick. So I think Cassandra is probably my favorite cat. There is my least favorite shot is any of the cats that came out as the fan of me. I hated it. I hated doing it. I hated watching it. I hated singing it. I hated wearing a costume on top of a costume that was already hot and that was like, really now we know racially insensitive, yeah, ethnically insensitive, rather so, um, you know any of this? I mean, Scott's least favorite hand sound and Cassandra most favorite,

[40:53] Mike Abrams: Okay, favorite song in the show

[40:56] Speaker 3: to perform was definitely rum, 10, tiger, nope. I take that back. I want to take that back. I apologize when there were, when you were tumble Brutus or Alonzo or constable in our company, you were, you danced back up in the cavity, and that was the coolest thing to do, because that wasn't, I didn't ever think I would be able to do that number like when I watched the game. The VHS when I was younger, and so when I learned that in rehearsals, I got really excited, because I also didn't have to sing during it, because it was all schema voices. So we would just dance and go out there and have a blast. So the cavity was definitely my favorite number to dance. Awesome.

[41:39] Mike Abrams: All right. Million dollar question, I will happily give you my answer after but I've argued at length that I don't think Grizabella is the right Jellicle choice. So I need to hear, are you going to defend Grizabella, or are you going to give me a different, delicate choice, if you tuck our picking as as Old Deuteronomy?

[42:00] Speaker 3: I obviously been thinking about this since we talked via email, and I'm not allowed to have two answers, right? I'm not allowed so

[42:09] Mike Abrams: you can have two answers, but I'm going to make you pick one for how I do keep track of the votes. And so I will let you have two answers, because I do keep a, one, A, 1b but I need to know the One A still for. Who do I give you credit for?

[42:23] Speaker 3: Okay, okay, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna defend Grizabella for a second, and then ultimately not choose her. Grizabella, if you and I'm sure you know this already, and but the song wasn't added. It wasn't in the show originally. You know, grizzabel, the glamor cat was, but the song memory was not, and it's kind of like, just like the opening number. It's kind of fictionalized around the other writings of TS Eliot. I don't think you know, just from a show standpoint, like the show would not be, I don't think it would have been without that song memory. I it would not have lasted. It would not be a thing. We wouldn't have this podcast. We wouldn't be talking right now, if it weren't Grizabella singing memory at the end. That's just my opinion. But with that being said, I, you know, talking about my cavity I had, you know, when I was a kitten on stage. I always really thought about, like the tormenting that Macavity did and in the and I have to say that in like the in the spirit of redemption and rehabilitation, I think that I would choose Macavity to go to the heavy side there, to hopefully relieve some of the tensions with the females in the tribe, and to maybe come back as a more positive force in the junkyard. I love a cavity. I

[43:50] Mike Abrams: love the answer, because it's like, there is, it's he fits the age demographic. You know, you want it to be one of the older kittens, for sure. There is a like, does he need it? It's like, yeah, he probably does. He's tormented so many people, and then there's a hope of like, a best decision for coming back. I want to go back to your Grizz defense, though, because I don't think you cut memory if you don't, if you don't pick her, I still think you let her belt it out. But I want her to spend the rest of the time with the tribe, like, welcome her back to the tribe. And then just whoever walks up on the the tire can can be the choice. Like, I think the whole story stays exactly the same. But then she gets Welcome back to her family, and you can let Gus go up on the tire. You can let mccaviddy go up on the tire. Like you're all out there who goes and is your choice. But

[44:34] Speaker 3: no one touches her, Victoria Vicki. Vicki never touches her. You just like, Okay, that was a good song. You can

[44:41] Mike Abrams: still touch her. Let's bring her back to her family. Like, let's let her be part of the tribe, okay, yeah, because you're right, if you cut a memory out of the show, it's not, it's not gonna, it wouldn't be here 40 years later. Like, it's, it's such an, like, an important part of cats,

[44:58] Speaker 3: yeah. I mean, it's what. I think it was the flagship of the show was that, you know, was, you know, Alan page being really Bella. I do, I, I do think the show, I would love to see if it was like reimagined and, you know, and I've been obsessed now, over the last few days, getting ready for this, thinking about what it would be like if, if there was a different cat chosen every night, and if it was like, audience response and like, just reach under your seat for the cat who you think. And because I would have, I would have loved to have ridden the tire. It's

[45:40] Mike Abrams: so it's my but that is my dream scenario, and I think it would work perfect on tour, because you add so many fun layers to this. One is you get audience participation. For some people that either know the show or don't know the show, you get this, like, really unique. You know, I think tour, it seems like tour could get a little stale, and that's why you get some of these stories, is because you're doing this eight times a week in different cities, but it's the same thing that you almost have to liven itself up for you, or you're it's repetitive, so it gets rid of that you have a different choice. You go city to city, and you have a different audience, but you definitely have some of the similar people, like people will go multiple times, and you could almost like, say, hey, if it was skimble Shanks yesterday, they're not an option today. Or it brings out, like, who really sells their number tonight? Like, who really brought their A game tonight for for that number? And I feel like it would still skew towards Gus, Grizabella, Tugger, Mustafa. He's like, skimble Shanks, like some of the Macavity, like, it's gonna skew to the cats that have, like, big, meaty numbers. But I think, like, at the end, you just pull it out, and again, American Idol X Factor. It let people vote, pull the put the stats up, and then somebody helps up on this.

[46:53] Speaker 3: Every once in a while you're gonna have a quote, yeah, like a 10 smile, and, you know, it's not going to be one of the big name cats

[47:04] Mike Abrams: well. And I think you have, like, you get to somebody's hometown, I they bring their whole dance community or their their high school with them, and all of a sudden they they're gonna skew the results, and you're gonna get one of the twins, or, you know, you're gonna get some, some random cat that night. So I love it. I think it brings a whole different layer to this. Buster Jones exactly, although that would be challenging, because you'd have to get Gus, you'd have to get Gus out of costume, back in the bust of

[47:31] Speaker 3: her. That's what I was thinking. I was like, Buster Jones would be a pain. And they probably already know if it's your last night on tour. That box is already on the truck. I'm sure. Yeah, that coat is gone.

[47:43] Mike Abrams: There's a world where this could be done, and I it's not gonna happen unless it gets reima. You know, it's being reimagined in the in New York, on, like, a ballroom setting, and they're doing some different things. But, like, this doesn't have to be that far reimagined. And I, I'm, I'm, like, I will do it. I will happily. I have no ability to actually do any other part of the show. I couldn't teach you the dance choreography, couldn't tell anything about staging, couldn't tell anything else. But I can help you with the voting system of how to do this in each city.

[48:13] Speaker 3: Well, you have quite a few people you've met now who could do all the rest of it for you. I think so definitely,

[48:17] Mike Abrams: exactly. I will outsource all the rest, and I just need Angela Webber to reply to me and to agree to this. And one day, one day, my dream is gonna happen. I feel like, you know, if I, if I record enough of these, at some point he's gonna have to respond to

[48:34] Speaker 3: me. Guys, pay attention. Have you never heard from Angela Webber?

[48:37] Mike Abrams: I have never actually reached out because I'd like joking about it, but I do. There are a few people that, if they come on this podcast, then my like, there's definitive answers of why it's got to be Grizabella, and they can make this, you know, parody. End by just saying, here's why that decision is correct. So I've kind of avoided it, but I definitely it's, it's gonna come eventually. I'm gonna, I'm gonna work my way towards, towards, you know, towards Him. To come on and share a story

[49:12] Mike Abrams: this has been extremely fun. I am so glad we got to share the spike story with modern internet, I guess, like with updated internet. And we'll have you send some of the pictures to me and some of stuff, and we'll share the spike wig, or whatever you have, the fan art and all the stuff that that brings the spike lower. And if anybody else has listened to this and you were spike, let me know. I want to hear more about how spike evolved over the years. If he, if he has, this has been super fun. How can people stay in touch with you on social media and keep up with what you're doing?

[49:49] Speaker 3: I am tuck Davis on Instagram. The theater company that I run is running to places. We have a great website. You can check it out. It's running to places. I'm running to places.org We're also on Facebook and Instagram as well, and that's where I do all my theater names amazing.

[50:09] Mike Abrams: We'll link all of that as well so everyone can find it. And thanks again for being an amazing guest. Thank you so much, Mike, and thanks everyone else for listening to this episode of the rocket die the podcast, break down the cat strategy to follow the honorable you can subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or anywhere else to listen to podcasts. Follow us on Twitter, Instagram and tick tock and threads now at the wrong cat died and check our website. The wrong cat died. Calm. You.