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[0:00] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ariana Grande, Hi, I'm Cynthia ARIBO, and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network. Visit vpn.fm, to discover more. There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. I'm the wrong one died. I'm the wrong one died. Welcome to

[0:28] Mike Abrams: the wrong cat died. The podcast breakdown the cat atrophy. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have an amazing guest. She is an incredible writer, comedian, actress and podcaster. She created the TV show difficult people, written on shows like schmigadoon and co host a podcast called double threat. You know her for a lot of things, but you might not know that she is a humongous cats fan, and I'm excited to have her on for that reason. So welcome to the cos for joining me. I'm delighted to be here. Thank you so much for having me. I love that you said, you just said that you are born angelical. Ready to talk about this? So this is I'm so excited because I, you know, I'm familiar with your work, but a lot of times I'm always just like, I didn't realize this person was a huge cats fan. And so it's so fun to to learn this. I know that you've interacted with the cats Social Media Team. Who's the one who told me to reach out so and here we are today. So let's start at the beginning where, like, When was your when we introduced a show like, When did your cast fandom start? It

[1:23] Speaker 2: was the first Broadway show I ever went to, and it is probably responsible for my personality, because when you're a nascent human and you are taken to some kind of experience that's just so overwhelming, like, yeah, and I mean, even adults who had seen shows before would have agreed, especially, you know, during during its time at the at the Winter Garden and its original run. I'm, you know, fortunate enough to have grown up in the New York City area, even even adults would have agreed that it was immersive and, you know, like overwhelming in its own right. I was extremely like I or something like that, and I and seeing cats was one of my first memories, not just theater memories, just memories period. Well, the pun memory will put aside and pretend I didn't say that, but I have a very, very distinctive like, like when I like sensory recollection of being on the aisle and having one of the actors interact with me, and one of the cats, like reached over and touched my hand, and I looked down, and I saw that she was wearing an arm warmer, and she had chipped Orange nail polish. And I remember in that moment thinking, Oh, my God, this is, this is a cool girl, yeah, also having this amazing experience. So it was very, very formative and very intense. And then the rest of the show, you know, my I was talking about this with my dad recently, he just said, like, your jaw was on the floor.

[3:23] Mike Abrams: So you're, I mean, you were young enough, you were really young that, like, all of the craziness of the show goes over your head. You're just in the immersive theater experience at the Winter Garden.

[3:32] Speaker 2: Does it go over your head, or does it just go right into your face? Is it just like when you're hungry and you eat sugar and you're just, yeah, here we are.

[3:39] Mike Abrams: I think there's, there's some, like, very dark plot points. And I've always kind of wondered why it's such a kid friendly show, because it just you don't grasp the plot points, because it just is, like, over your head. I saw it as a adult, and I'm like, this seems a little strange. Like, this seems pretty sexual. This seems like but I would have never noticed that as a five year old, but I noticed it in my 30s.

[4:00] Speaker 2: I think that the emotion is universal, right? Ascend. Ascension is universal. The uplift of that, I think, like the sexuality to me, I probably, you know, was like projecting in the same way that you play with dolls, yeah. And it was probably like, very, very fascinating. And children are in their bodies so much, but, but I also really loved cats. I love the animals. So that was also very, very wonderful. But the plot points that went, I mean, I'll never understand, honestly, understand the peaks and the polls. It's like that whole section, whether it's growl, tigers, last stand like that, that whole section, I think, is like, that's a, you know, that's a pee break if you have to take one, whether you're six or 60, yeah. But I think I got the gist of it. I think, I think, I think I was able to. To just be sort of like bombarded by the

[5:03] Mike Abrams: magic. So you got to experience the green eyes, where they come in and are in your face and touching you. Did you go on stage at intermission to meet Old Deuteronomy? I

[5:14] Speaker 2: don't remember. I'll have to ask my folks. I wonder. I wonder if I did. I saw the revival a few years ago, and I didn't, I didn't go on stage, but I did. I did go on stage during the intermission for parade, and I pet Ben Platt, which was really, really the ushers did not like that.

[5:34] Mike Abrams: All that felt that was a very old Deuteronomy moment. It was very The first thing I said when I was I was like, he's in jail and he's sitting up there. I was like, this is, this is some Old Deuteronomy. Just, yeah, pondering his life very much. So, yeah, so you've seen it. You saw, you saw as a five year old, you saw the revival. I mean, if it's very formative, obviously a fan, how frequent, like, have you been able to go and see the show multiple times? Or is it just something that is kind of like a fun theater moment from you, because it was your first show. I

[6:03] Speaker 2: like the DVD a lot, the live recording from 99 but I haven't. I was very, very disappointed that I missed this last tour. I was actually looking into getting tickets to see the West Coast leg, because I know they were in Hawaii in June, and I thought I closed spending June in Hawaii seeing cats. Sounds real, real nice, but I unfortunately did not, did not pull that together. Yeah, I was,

[6:33] Mike Abrams: I got to meet them and film with them and do some work with them in DC, because I'm in New York, and it was a train ride down, yeah, but I kept singing, I believe, finish in Hawaii. Like, what an amazing way to kind of close your show. Yeah, that's

[6:46] Speaker 2: the way to go. Then, yeah, then you go right to the the heavy side layer, yeah.

[6:50] Mike Abrams: What a work trip too. You know, I was like, that's that sounds pretty awesome. It

[6:54] Speaker 2: looked like a fabulous cast. I really enjoyed everything I saw online from the tour. And hopefully there'll be another tour, because it is now and forever. That show's not going anywhere.

[7:03] Mike Abrams: It's not going anywhere. There'll be another tour. Happened regionally. Yeah, it's still on Royal Caribbean, I think right now, if you want to cruise, yeah, if you want to get on a cruise and see a 90 minute version, and it's overseas. I think the the

[7:15] Speaker 2: Isn't it always in Japan, when the Starlight Express is always in Germany, yeah, there's some reason the access powers, like, really, like Android, whatever.

[7:25] Mike Abrams: That's so true. I think it's, I saw it was in, I think Italy. It's kind of been all over, yeah, if you search hard, you're gonna you can go find a great vacation spot and see the show with

[7:38] Speaker 2: it. Got it. Got it. I know I'm waiting for the next incarnation, because I am. I'm in desperate need of I got to see those cats live.

[7:50] Mike Abrams: So I want, I want to hear a little bit about your thoughts on the plot before we get into like, its influence on your life and work. You see it an early age. You watch the DVD, you know, like, how would you if you have a friend who doesn't know cats at all and they're going to come with you and you're going to take them to Hawaii next time they're in Hawaii, how are you telling them what they're going to

[8:12] Speaker 2: see? I think it's a review. I think it's hair I like. I think structurally, it's, it's a series of vignettes, in the same way that I think it's important for people to know that they were based on on poetry, and that it just sung through peace, like everything sir Andy does. But I but I think that basically what people need to know in terms of the story, and we'll say story, not plot, but because I do think there is one. And I I have a bunch of pet peeves around the show, one of, one of which is people saying there's no story, the other of which is just lousy jokes.

[8:51] Speaker 3: I will, um, we'll come back to the pet peeves. I want to, okay, I want to cover

[8:55] Speaker 2: them all. Great, great. But um, I would just say that it is, um, a show where cats introduce themselves and are sort of auditioning for the chance to be resurrected, and at the end, uh, one ascends to their version of heaven and gets to have another have another shot at it. I

[9:21] Mike Abrams: love, I love. It's a I like the like, going back to the poems, it's not a, it is a strange thing because, like, I and this is the world you live in. Like, I come from a fan of sitcoms, and I did not get a sitcom plot. I think that that's kind of a very challenging piece for a lot of people, or like myself, where if you expect that type of plot, you are not going to get it. But if you go in expecting the opposite of that, or just a little bit of like, we're going to introduce a bunch of people, we're going to have a loose, overarching kind of theme, and then you're going to get a little bit of a confrontation action climax, and then the moment, and then obviously the booming, heavy memory. Three and then, but you don't get a Alan B line, neat and tidy, bringing it together close, like you do in a 22 minute sitcom. No, there's

[10:09] Speaker 2: definitely the the only it's not really a conflict, it's a it's a competition, but there is a villain, to some extent, with the cavity and like a running kind of like a, you know, chaotic figure, but I saw that they were doing a ballroom version of it, and I thought that's absolutely brilliant, because that is, you know, structurally ideal. It is a it is a pageant in a way. But it's also, you know, it's portraiture more than anything else, right? It's this. This is sort of, you know, portraits of different characters and, and then, you know what the podcast is about, like, who kind of earns the right to to let the memory live again? Definitely. Yeah, the ballroom

[10:56] Mike Abrams: is gonna be really interesting, because they're making, they're actually not even fully putting costumes, like, it's an interpretation of it, which should be really cool. I also did you see Leona Lewis in 2000 I did. I did. So that was my frame of reference too, is I thought it was the X Factor. Yeah, it's a very similar style. Oh, yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. So that was, I really think the genesis of this podcast, and a lot of the jokes I made originally stemmed from seeing her like, I don't know if I would have walked out of the theater if she wasn't there thinking X Factor, if it wasn't for her and her performance, which

[11:29] Speaker 2: was incredible, fabulous. She made me cry. She was beautiful. So

[11:34] Mike Abrams: So I, I kind of love that. What other plot like when you think about the formative pieces of your youth from seeing this. Like, what do you remember from the plot of the takeaways of like, oh, this was my favorite moments of the show.

[11:47] Speaker 2: I remember being a little girl and being really happy. Grizabella got to win.

[11:52] Speaker 3: Oh no, isn't gonna be good for the rest. Okay. No, that

[11:56] Speaker 2: was just little. That was just little Julie. I i loved, you know, I, like everybody else in the 80s, loved that song, and she was definitely like my she was my favorite. And then at some point, Jenny any dots took over. Oh, nice. Okay, Jenny, any dots became my, my favorite. But it was funny because I was also enchanted with A Chorus Line A very soon after that, that was the other show from my childhood, non Sondheim show from my childhood that was very, very like, impactful. You know, having grown up in the 80s. Those those two shows were, you know, to say they were, um, like Smash Hits is like such an understatement, especially early 80s, mid and later was, like, more likely, Miz and anyway, the the chorus line, you also kind of, like, picked a favorite, and then I remember being pissed every time Sheila didn't make it. Sheila was so cool.

[12:55] Mike Abrams: There's some similarities too, right? Like, it's a little bit of overlap. So I love that you you like the shows where it's just line everybody up and then one person's gonna get selected Exactly.

[13:04] Speaker 2: But in dance, it doesn't help if you're, like, cranky and beaten up. Apparently,

[13:09] Mike Abrams: that's true. That's true. Have you seen six? Six has got a little bit of the same vibe.

[13:13] Speaker 2: I have not, but that's an interesting um, I've seen nine. Yeah? Nine is like, six in a way,

[13:21] Mike Abrams: yeah, six has the same competition style. Got it the Okay, so, yeah, it's a good structure, yeah? Which is, again, it gives you a lot of opportunity. You get a lot of different characters, and you kind of build,

[13:32] Speaker 2: you get to feel like you're playing sports theater, folks. It's always exhilarating to be like, oh, I need some Gatorade. Yeah?

[13:40] Mike Abrams: What about like, was there a moment from because, like, as a writer, like, Did you Did this help formulate a little bit of, like, your writing style and perspective, or is it just something that was just, like, a big moment from you as a child, from, like, informative years? So,

[13:55] Speaker 2: wonderful question. I think there are probably turns a phrase that have stuck with me, but it's absolutely a master class in creating emotion. I think that this is a heart, not head piece. You're in your body. The dancers are in their body. This is a dance musical. It's sort of the opposite of like a like a heady kind of kind of piece like, in fact, it's strange, as someone who is as verbal as I am, and someone who appreciates great writing as much as I do, to Look forward to the Jellicle Ball the most, because it's No, I mean, I mean, it's just like a solid 10 minutes of the most athletic dancing you've ever seen. But the music is so exciting, and perhaps there's something about getting a break from the verbal. Part of my brain that sort of helps me enjoy it more. Yeah,

[15:04] Mike Abrams: that's so interesting to think about it from that perspective of like, because I had a similar moment of where, when I saw the sort of the first time, I kept trying to remember, why did I only remember mango, Jerry, Rumble, teaser and Macavity, and then I pieced it together, as I saw later, is because there's so much going on in the ball and during the opening number and during so many of the numbers that those are some of the only moments where you only have, like, a cat or two on stage. Yes, and you get like this, like, break of the sensory overload and just get to focus on the two. And so I kind of

[15:34] Speaker 2: love most of all these two. Most obvious is, you know, he definitely also, like they repeat his name, I think more than anyone else, he gets the entrance and the chorus, and then there's another chorus, and it's one of those, like in Drowsy Chaperone, I am Adolfo, like one of those, but like the cat, yeah,

[15:55] Mike Abrams: they definitely repeat the names For every single cat. Yeah.

[16:00] Speaker 2: Listen, repetition has always served sir Andy very well, yeah. And if something, listen, if some, if there's something that's juicy enough, like as a hook, then, you know, bring it on.

[16:11] Mike Abrams: Yeah, he has, he has a little history of, of putting his stuff and touch on all the stuff. I think you saw some bad Cinderella had some, some Jellicle moments, I thought, at least musically compared to some others, which was fun for me as someone who's like, still kind of early in knowing anything about theater, to be able to be like, Oh, I recognize some of that music, stuff that definitely has the sound that I, you know, like that I'm used to from him. Well, I'm

[16:36] Speaker 2: thrilled that, as someone who's new to theater, bad Cinderella has not turned you off to theater completely. I

[16:42] Mike Abrams: think if you went in with the right mindset, it was a very fun time.

[16:50] Mike Abrams: that would have helped make bats in the realm for some people, but, but yeah, I think, you know, I'm a big fan of that. There's a place in art for everybody. And so, yeah, that show did not land for a lot of people, but there was a group that

[17:06] Speaker 2: fun, yeah, and it's a weird time right now. I don't think anybody would disagree. So

[17:11] Mike Abrams: I want to You mentioned your your pet peeves and gripes with the show, or what Fandom of the show? Yeah, let's air some of these out.

[17:19] Speaker 2: I think there have been a lot of lousy jokes, but at the same time, there's a lot of lousy jokes about anything that's super famous. I mean, how many? There's a million lousy jokes about Trump. There's a million lousy jokes about anything that people want to take on. What I think is unfair about the lousy jokes around cats is just that a, it's easy and B, like, there are things that are so much worse. It's almost like I was talking this week on I do this podcast, double threat, with my friend Tom sharpling, and we were talking about Ed Wood and just how I had watched plan Nine from Outer Space, and thought this was considered the worst movie ever. I've seen movies that are so much worse. This, at least has like it. First of all, it's short, it has a point of view. It's weird enough to be interesting. There are parts of it that are really funny, there are parts of it that are genuinely beautiful. And I guess when it comes to cats, I mean, there was a lot of backlash. I know it was a phenomenon. I know it was a merch phenomenon. But then I also just think about, you know, the American like, like, there are some things that bum me out about, you know, American disdain for like, things like, for mensar or stuff that's a little too queer or a little too theatrical and, and I'm defensive of those things, because those are some of my favorite things. Yeah,

[18:53] Mike Abrams: it is an easy punch line because the names are weird. Yeah, it's different from everything else. They're, you know, they are humans, dressed as cats, acting like cats, but with very human storylines. So it's, it is just far enough off the beaten path to be an easy joke, absolutely. And I think there's, I've seen some, like, really dumb ones. I've seen some also, like, really funny ones where I'm like, Oh, I like the interpretation of, like, Modern Family, when they get he goes on his Tugger and sings memory, and then he gets stuck in a tree and, like, that's a punchline. That's the cat being stuck in a tree. Like, I think some of that's fun because it's not, it's respectful of the art, but also using as a vehicle. I've seen some others that that aren't as great, yes.

[19:37] Speaker 2: Well, Get A Life episode. Zoo animals on wheels is sort of like the gold standard to some extent, yeah, but, but it, but it also, yeah, like the audience participation stuff was definitely like, people have every reason to be annoyed by that. And I think the sexuality of it was a little overwhelming to people, yeah. I mean, it's, it's different. Different.

[20:00] Mike Abrams: It's not like most of their stuff that you ever see. And even in theater, like it's still not, not a ton like it. And then, to your point, it's been running for 42 years, like it's been around. So the success makes it like it's a well known name, people will like, even when I saw the revival. The reason I ended up with tickets is I asked my friend, I said, I don't know a lot about theater. I moved to New York, what, like, classics of these, like things that I will have at least heard of. Yeah, am I not seeing? Like, not, not the new stuff, or, like, the cool, you know, unique things, like, give me was the Phantom, the Les Mis, and it was cat, and it was that was in that list. And I'm like, Yeah, I know memory. I don't know much about the rest, but at least, you know, everyone knows some of it, and I've yet to meet someone who can give me a thoughtful reason of why they don't like it. I get a lot of people that say they don't like it, and they're just like, Oh, it wasn't for me. But nobody has had given me like, a critical, real reason of like their dislike for the show.

[20:54] Speaker 2: Well, it gives it gives people the ick, because it's very, very theater. And if you don't like theater, you're doomed, because it's very it's very theatrical. But I would also remind you with the like now and forever of it all and it being a phenomenon. I mean, think about actual cats. Think about how successful that species is. They are. More people have cats than they have dogs, and there's a reason for that. They're they stick around like they're not going anywhere. They're very, very, very successful as a species. And so is this show, and it's universal, in a way that is, you know, not attached to any nation or language or age, and that's extremely powerful.

[21:46] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I never thought about it from that angle of like they're like, there's no dogs. There's not a dog show. There's no they pretend to be dogs at one point. Really funny. They do pretend to be dogs with, like, shoe cars, yeah, yeah. There's again, there's some moments they pretend to be cockroaches at one point too. That's terrific. Yeah, we're gonna take a quick break, and we'll be back for more of the wrong cat died. I so I want to pivot a little bit to, like, the influence of your the rest of your work, like, knowing that this show I've saw, some of the tie dye T shirts you've done and like, like, how has this? Has cats kind of worked into either things you've done where you've been a writer, or other things you've kind of just done on your personal life or even in your podcast?

[22:30] Speaker 2: Well, I went to art school, so I'm a visual person, and so I would say that cats has definitely influenced me esthetically, because there's simply nothing else like it. And I do respect that the costume and makeup design to this day still pays homage to hot gossip, which is the dance troupe, and also, just like Ziggy Stardust era Bowie and that that like late 70s, early 80s, leg warmers, arm warmers, those fabulous yak hair wigs. I mean, those are, like, esthetically, it is just such a powerhouse in a way that not other, not not as many shows, and the set is so iconic, and so that's just incredibly impactful to me. And then, like, I would be lying if I didn't have like, if I said that there wasn't like, I know what's ridiculous about the show. Like, I know that the characters have ridiculous names. I know that it's extremely silly, and that there are things about it that are like, stupid or childish. I am just an integrated enough person to be able to appreciate those things as well as be able to laugh at them at the same time. So I guess it's a way of I guess I do that instead of accepting myself as a young person, I think I accept the things I liked as a young person, instead of accepting myself as a young person.

[24:06] Mike Abrams: I love that. Have you like so have you for one challenge I have as someone who now has a show is I'll see a new Broadway show, or I'll see something on TV and be like, Oh, here's the cat. Like, this is what that cat would be. Here's like, the cat's version of that, as someone who wrote on SNL and created a TV show and has wrote on Twitter, doing, which is theater based, how much cats like, have you tried to bring into that world? Or have you thought about like, Oh, this is where this could be, could fit into, you know, a skit, or this was where cats could be a good a punch line, or a frame of reference for for that?

[24:40] Speaker 2: Well, I didn't write on SNL. I wrote on a couple of TV fun house. Oh, sure, okay, yeah, there is an episode of difficult people called hashtag cats, and the show is featured in it, but it's not really a plot point of. Much as it was just sort of like a destination for our characters to attend. But the and then and then, for first, make it June the the first two seasons were not set in the in that era. Yeah. So, you know, there was no, there was no cats to be pitched but, but it's constantly on my mind. And I will, I will, I will, I will bring it into anything that I do ever, yeah, the last thing I do,

[25:33] Mike Abrams: it's my schmigadoon Season Three dream, is that we get it, we get an 80s setting, and we get cats and all the other fun of

[25:42] Speaker 2: them. Well, let's, let's hope the AM, PTP, uh, joins in on your dream. I

[25:46] Mike Abrams: Yes. Fingers crossed. Fingers crossed. Um, what other like? What other cats like this is, this is all cats podcast. So you got all cats fans here, like what other pieces have when we cover that you want to like that you would want to make sure what we cover. Firmly. I like

[26:01] Speaker 2: talking about what kind of cat, what people who actually have cats? I always ask them which cat they most remind them of from the show, if they're familiar with the show, because as as challenging as it is to divorce the personality from the appearance, um, I try to encourage people to do it, but then I see myself not being able to do it because I have a tuxedo cat, and I he's shyer than Mr. Mrs. But ultimately, like he's Mr. Mr. Police, like he just is, like he just is. Does he

[26:39] Mike Abrams: get a little bust of her, because busters got kind of a similar look.

[26:43] Speaker 2: But he's not Buster for he's not, he's not that food motivated, and he's also not that fancy, like, he's kind of like a, he's like, a tall, skinny guy from Queens, okay, um, but um, and he does, like, appear sometimes, like, um, somewhat magic. And he's magical to me, but my cat, before Jimmy jazz, was smiley muffin and she was Jenny, any dots? Just absolutely no question whatsoever. And, I mean, I think that was part of why I I mean, they say that they choose you, but like, you choose that, like, yeah, you're the one filling out the application.

[27:24] Mike Abrams: Yeah. I so I had two cats growing up. One was kind of a orange tabby cat, and I think has a little skimble Shanks Look, uh huh, but not a skin Shanks vibe. Well,

[27:35] Speaker 2: that's exactly it, yeah, to differentiate the two, because she kind of did look like Jenny, any dots, and she had that, that personality, but, but Jimmy, I feel like, I don't know if, who's the shyest cat, and

[27:51] Mike Abrams: it's shy is probably one of the twins, because they're, like, very they, they kind of see around the corner, type of, right? Like, they know everything that's happening. But because of that, they're, I don't you know, you don't see them pop up. It's probably one of the kittens. Would be one of the shyer ones, some rambunctious kittens. And then you've got, I think, a couple on the Shire side, like Victoria, has a shy ish feel,

[28:13] Speaker 2: yes, yes, but he's a but he's a boy, so, yeah, to be, and he's not old enough to be, to be Gus yet. Yeah,

[28:22] Mike Abrams: he's not that's good, not not quite there, not quite

[28:26] Speaker 2: not quite there. And he's not an out, he's not monkey strapped, because he, um, like, if people come over, like, He'll either hide his or just, you know, like, be in the corner, and just, he's not interested in, like, hosting,

[28:42] Mike Abrams: yeah. I mean, maybe that is the misophys, though. Then, because misophys, I could see being magical, also could hide.

[28:47] Speaker 2: He he does, he disappears sometimes, yeah, and then when he does come in, it's always a Presto moment for me. So, so I've got a, I've got a misophyllies, and I had a Jenny,

[28:59] Mike Abrams: any Did you consider naming them one of the cat's characters? No,

[29:04] Speaker 2: no, they both came with those names. I added, I added jazz, but his name was Jimmy. It's hard to when you adopt, it's hard to use the names. You have to, like, alter them, or else, just, you know, celebrate them.

[29:16] Mike Abrams: Yeah. So if you were going to get a new cat not named, or maybe additional

[29:21] Speaker 2: cash grew in Jimmy's life. Yes,

[29:24] Mike Abrams: well, what depends on who? Yeah, you could add Tugger. They'd be friends like, you know they but who would you which? What

[29:32] Speaker 2: the worst? I think that Jimmy would only do well with like, a little Kenton. I think he would maybe two kentons like that, that he would juggle them as like he they, I'd tell them they were props for his magic act. That's the only way he would because I did bring in one cat once who looked just like shinbel Shanks, skimble Shanks, skimble shanks. Yeah, he looked just like skimble shanks. If like skimble Shanks was like malnourished and. Was and like, and just like, but really, really long hair, and he was like a Norwegian Forest Cat. And Jimmy thought I was bringing him, like a before dinner. He was like, oh my god, this is so nice of you, mom. Like, I really for vibes right there, I know, but he would be because he wanted to fight. He wanted to fight and kill, and he does knock things off of there is a little bit of Macavity. Yeah, every cat.

[30:28] Mike Abrams: I wonder if Plato is kind of the prince. Maybe that's the shyness of

[30:35] Mike Abrams: Plato is the other half of Macavity. So it's usually the same actor. Yeah, Plato more often than they are. Mccaviddy Macavity is actually not in the show all that much, but one of their terms, because they get three words, and one of the words is princely, I believe.

[30:49] Speaker 2: Oh yeah. He could definitely be Plato. Yeah, I can see that he's an easy going says he's a late, quiet and laid back who prefers to stay in the background. Oh yeah, that's a great you're really going to want to read that on the casting board.

[31:07] Mike Abrams: Well, that's why you get my cavity too. You get to play the altar. You go,

[31:10] Speaker 2: that's true. That's true. There's two cats in all of us, and he does kind of look like Play Doh, although he looks more like like, I mean, he is a star, so let's be honest here.

[31:20] Mike Abrams: He's misophysia. Yeah, he is. I love it. Let's do a little rapid fire from the show. Okay, please, if you could go and perform as one of the cats for one night. Forget if you sing, dance, just male, female, whatever. Just you want to go on one night. Who are you gonna go performance? Well,

[31:35] Speaker 2: definitely Jenny Annie does, but I'll just say jelly Lorem for King. Just okay, because I love her costume so much. But I definitely, I know that, like, if I could dance better than I can, which is not very well, I would be, I would be a wonderful Jenny, any doubt, so somebody was willing to, like, work with me and teach me how to can you tap, yeah, yes. I would be, I would be terrific in that, in that role. But I do see jelly Lorem, and I think, oh, gosh, that would be really cool to wear, to wear that look like that. That would be fun. And jelly Lorem sings, she's, she's, like, one of the Macavity gals,

[32:21] Mike Abrams: yeah, uh, no, that's Demeter and bomb valerian. Aren't there three the the three are, I think, in the Tugger. So I let me reframe this. I only Jemima. I only know 2016 production. So I only know the Andy blankenbueh are newer stuff, and I've seen a little bit of the 1998 movie, just because it's what's sure out there. And we'll talk YouTube, yes. So I know that Demeter and bomb Valley Arena, sigma cavity as like a duet. Got

[32:49] Speaker 2: it. Okay. So third girl, Jemima, is. So Jemima has been

[32:56] Mike Abrams: okay. I forget what Jemima? Syllabub, syllab, yeah. Because

[33:00] Speaker 2: Okay. Got it, yeah, got it. And so it looks like bomble Arena is. So who's the one who sings with Gus? Is that Shelly? Lauren? Yeah, got it. Then I'm just gonna be honest and and I'm just gonna say, I'm just gonna I'm the old Gumby cat that's just even look like her. I mean, it makes perfect sense for me.

[33:25] Mike Abrams: Who are your I think you've already said this. Your favorite is Jenny. But who are your favorite and least favorite characters from the

[33:31] Speaker 2: musical? I'd say my least favorite. Let me think. I mean, my least favorite part is like the whole growl, Tigers last stand or the rump I don't like the Rumpus Cat. That's my answer. Okay, the Rumpus Cat,

[33:48] Mike Abrams: yeah, that's that part's also, I don't think in the new version growl, Tigers Last Stand isn't in the

[33:55] Speaker 2: new version, right? They replaced it with the peaks in the pollicle. Yeah, they put exactly, yeah, I don't like the peaks or the polls. I especially don't like Rumpus Cat, because rumpus cats like, not, like, he's kind of robotic, right? He's not exactly organic. He's almost like a steampunk like, I'm like, is this cats or what?

[34:14] Mike Abrams: Yeah, yeah, the the peaks of the populace is kind of a weird, like, piece I never really understood, even as I've, like, gotten to know the show, I don't really follow where it fits in. The story doesn't really fit nearly as much as, like, it's like we needed a break, but we got enough of their little breaks. Like, I understood Jenny's teaching the the mice and the cockroaches. Like, yeah, it fits her story, but, and when it was the part of Gus story with brow tigers, like I at least understood that peaks and Paul, because, like, right, doesn't fit for me anywhere.

[34:46] Speaker 2: Yeah. And, I mean, it is funny that they're making fun of dogs. That is, yeah, wonderful. But they and they are putting on, like, a play with it, a play. It definitely seems like, like, if the Jellicle Ball is like a long is like a house part. Years, like, there is, sure, yeah. I mean, you say tomato, there is a part of any party where you're just like, you guys want to play charades, yeah, I think, I think that when they put that play on, but I think the audience knows too, that it's like, are you vicious killing time? Because

[35:18] Mike Abrams: Exactly, and that's where, like, again, there's with the loose story, or I at least followed the like, Okay, I'm meeting this cat. I mean, this kind of, right? Am I watching West Side Story in the middle of

[35:29] Speaker 2: the show? Because it varies the pace of it. But if the song were catchy, or you wouldn't mind, frankly, no disrespect to certainty,

[35:36] Mike Abrams: that's true. I also think it's probably a break for the dancers, because, like, they do non stop, like, let's slow it down for a second. Yeah, they're super human. Yeah, yeah. That is, I mean, the ball is, I think it's 10 or 11

[35:53] Mike Abrams: What a feat of athleticism. Oh

[35:55] Speaker 2: my gosh, I love it. I I've watched it many times on YouTube with the with the sections labeled, and that's fascinating. All names I

[36:01] Mike Abrams: didn't because, again, as someone who doesn't know anything about dance, I'm like, What? What is this piece called learning

[36:07] Speaker 2: about things that I will never be able to do?

[36:10] Mike Abrams: Yeah, same, exactly. What's your favorite song from the show?

[36:16] Speaker 2: Oh, that's a great question. Let me mute. Let me look at the breakdown, just so I don't forget anything. I'm gonna look at my playlist, just so, I mean, it might very well be the Jellicle Ball, the ball. Yeah, the music from the ball, yeah, the Jellicle Ball, the overture,

[36:45] Mike Abrams: is a great answer, because it's like, it's, I've been asked the question of, like, does it have to be a song? I'm like, well, that's like, look at Spotify, or Apple music or whatever, and look at the cast album, and that is a song, and it's so well known. Like, you just you hear it, you're kind of like, Oh, I'm ready. I love the overture

[37:02] Speaker 2: because it's a little scary and it's very exciting and it sets the scene. And it also doesn't do what other overtures does, whatever, what other overtures do, which is play a little bit from each song. It doesn't do that. It just sort of is mood setting. So I, I love that, and I and I do, and I do love the Mungo Jerry and Rumpel teaser, kind of like waltz as well. Yeah,

[37:36] Mike Abrams: there's a lot of different musical styles mixed in, like the yes, the symbol Shanks is super fast, and macavid is kind of ominous. And there's the, I guess it's a very well crafted kind of piece where you get all those different styles, not

[37:49] Speaker 2: quite like Joseph, which is literally like, just, you know what every song is in a different style. But he was absolutely had his eye to variety.

[38:02] Mike Abrams: So before we get to the million dollar question, yes, yes, my fun one was, if you were going to write a show centered around one of the cats, Oh, would you want to be your vehicle? Like, which cat would you want to start your story with?

[38:17] Speaker 2: Oh, that's fascinating. Like, a, like, a, like a Wednesday show, like, yeah, oh my gosh. I mean, I think it's, it's tempting to choose a lesser known one, because that way you can make up more, yeah, well, but there's some

[38:39] Mike Abrams: fandoms that I've thought about every angle of the show. So there's some stuff out there for almost everybody, but yeah, I guess you're given less written word from the poems.

[38:48] Speaker 2: I mean, I can, I can see a world in which i i can do like I could do like a something set in the 80s where, like, Cassandra plays like a fashion designer, like a really, like, like, or like, she runs a modeling agency, and she's just like, kind of like a Grace Jones, just like, like, powerful femme, like, who hires and fires people, yeah, like, that would be, that would be really fun, but, but I, I don't want to forsake, like, what's cuddly. And I also want, like, my, I want my like large kings represented. So I would be curious to know what Old Deuteronomy was like when he was younger, like he was, like, pugsley's age, or or Buster Jones, like maybe he's a food critic. And I know you know sir Andy had a column. You. Once where he would review restaurants. Maybe Buster for Jones had a similar backstory. So those are three possibilities off the top of my head. But when the strike is over, if someone's like, we want to build a show around literally any of these cats, as long as it's not freaking, I don't know. Tumble Brutus, no, I'll do a tumble Brutus,

[40:21] Mike Abrams: yeah, I love that. You're just like, I'll do it. It's so interesting that, because so many of the things you just said is how I've answered, I've asked this question of who would be a tick tock influencer, okay, like, in what style, and all the answers you gave are have been my answers for tick tock influencers. Oh, let's do the modeling, and we'll have this, like, dance number or bust of her, I think, is cooking in his kitchen. And yes, so I love that you can

[40:45] Speaker 2: bust a free I don't think cooks. I think he just judges other people's like, like, Mike, if my cat could cook, he would not. Like he he likes being served. I think Buster does too. Like, if he wears to go everywhere, like he's not, yeah, he's not a show like he

[41:05] Speaker 2: would not want to see a skimble Shanks show. I think that is, to me, a little too Starlight Express like, I think covers the train stuff to some extent. Yeah, that's the only show I probably wouldn't want to what I work out, what I want to work on. Yes, I would have my number one, yeah,

[41:32] Speaker 2: Yeah. It won't be a train. It'll be Yeah, one of those cat busses from that, that anime movie I liked.

[41:37] Mike Abrams: Um, well, let me ask you the reverse question, insert any other cat from like fictional world into the cat's universe. Who would you want to insert, oh, um,

[41:49] Speaker 2: do you know bag pus? Do not know British, Irish? Do you know bag pus? No. Okay, yeah. Google. Bag pus. He's adorable. He's um, pink and white,

[42:01] Speaker 3: and he's terrific. I do know who this is. I've seen the pictures. He

[42:07] Speaker 2: was on a stop motion television show from 70s or

[42:15] Speaker 2: I mean, he's absolutely stunning, and it's one of the slowest shows ever. I don't know if children growing up in the UK just had better attention spans back then, but he could use a little bit of 5678, I think,

[42:31] Mike Abrams: Okay, well, what's like his backstory for this number? Like, is that, what would be his song? Like, what was the song for the jellicles? I mean,

[42:38] Speaker 2: maybe just about how everyone should just, like, slow down. Yeah.

[42:43] Mike Abrams: It's kind of like a Gus storyteller vibe, but not as old, like a younger Gus Yeah.

[42:47] Speaker 2: Just kind of like, stop and smell the roses. And like, if you look at a sunbeam, there's a lot of dust, yeah, that's like, going around in it. And isn't that interesting? And why does everything have to be like, bam, bam, bam. And I love it. You wouldn't

[43:03] Mike Abrams: have to rename back post fits the like, the rest of the names. Like, well, they all

[43:07] Speaker 2: have, like, 75 names, yeah, come up with, you know,

[43:11] Mike Abrams: I love it. Okay, so the most important question I ask everybody, and the genesis of this podcast, is, I don't think Isabelle is the right jokeal choice. And I have many arguments of why I have the fun and the funny and the real. But I want to know, if you are putting on your Old Deuteronomy hat and you are making your Jellicle choice, who are you picking and why? Grizabella,

[43:31] Speaker 2: obviously, you're insane. What's going on over there? Well, why do you not think she's so worthy? Of course, she is.

[43:37] Speaker 3: Give me your like like, what is the reason for it?

[43:41] Speaker 2: Seen it all, it's as a woman, when you are a certain age, you are useless and you are thrown away to garbage. No one sees you. You're invisible. She had this devastating backstory. She was like little Edie, basically, or big Edie, or both EDS and the other cats are mean to her, and it is hard to see that. And then she gets this song, and the song is the argument, because the song, when it modulates, goes up an octave, and all of a sudden you're crying, and you don't know why. And the answer is, because something is that beautiful, it makes you feel something that doesn't make sense, because it goes past your brain right into your heart. And the way that when you have, like an IV of ketamine, say it doesn't go through your stomach, it just goes right into your bloodstream. So I feel, and it is about feeling. It's not about thinking that because of this, the ultimately, this is about, you know, not just backstory, but performance and their songs are their prayers, because her prayer is a. The most beautiful she gets to ascend, and she seems like she could really use another chance. So

[45:11] Mike Abrams: I it's hard to argue against the because I the thing you just said that it's hard for me to argue against is that it's not your it's not your brain, it's your it's your heart. Yeah, and I do think if you kind of take it from that moment, like, is a powerful song, it's emotional song, like, I can't imagine doing it eight times a week, of like, belting that out and and having that well, she

[45:29] Speaker 2: doesn't have to dance, so it's actually just only the show for 15 minutes, maybe backstage, with some throat code and, yeah, but, but

[45:36] Mike Abrams: I think the part that, like, from my head is is, is that if she is, if you want to take the redemption arc story, which is what this is, this is a redemption story of her returning to her family and being re accepted. I've really struggled with the idea of we have just brought you back to our cultish tribe, and now we're going to kill you, versus the like. Let me spend a year with the family, and you go next year, but like, killing

[46:05] Speaker 2: her, they're just, they're resurrecting her, they're giving her another chance. Yeah,

[46:09] Mike Abrams: I think that the it's a, it's a new lease on life, but it would be a as a new like, you're not going to get that grizzabella, like, you're going to get a Victoria. Like, Victoria is, a lot of people think she was last year's choice, and that's why she's being brought back, right? But you're not bringing back like mom to the first one who touches Grizz too. It's either her, Cassandra, you're a syllabus, like one of them, either

[46:32] Speaker 2: syllabu or Victoria. Cassandra is not touching anything. Yeah, sorry, yeah, between meals.

[46:39] Mike Abrams: So, so I think, like, that's the part I struggle with, and I think it mostly stems too, is

[46:43] Speaker 2: that she's leaving, is that, is that, in theory, you're like, we accept you now you're dead.

[46:47] Mike Abrams: Now you're now you're gone. Instead of saying, like, Wow, I'm so excited to have this family member back that we have banished and, like, really treated poorly, we're now accepting her, and I get the giving of the war, but I'm like, let's send gusta here. Then you spend a year with your family. You go next

[47:03] Speaker 2: year. So would it make you feel better if, after she ascended, she comes back with, like, a makeover, and she's like,

[47:15] Speaker 2: then they do a Jellicle Ball. I actually would

[47:19] Mike Abrams: prefer that over the current ending. I'm not a huge fan of the current what the addressing of cats? Addressing cats? Yeah,

[47:25] Speaker 2: I cat is a dog.

[47:28] Mike Abrams: I get the lyrics, although the, I think it's because the 2019 movie really freaked me out with

[47:33] Speaker 2: it. I'm I am devastated that you even mentioned it, and I was waiting for it to come up like we could call it the shoe that dropped. Yeah, I both shoes at once, and they stink. I just depressed that you brought it up. I think

[47:49] Mike Abrams: we weren't gonna have to. I didn't ask, I didn't ask you about it. I acknowledge

[47:56] Mike Abrams: You know, the show stemmed because, like, the show exists because of the movie. Like, that's what drummed up the, like, my joke in the first place, and that's what started the parody of it. Well, it's something good came out of it then, exactly, but at the same time, like, I do think I had seen the music stage musical, and I think a lot of people see that movie, haven't, and it to me, it's like, it's night

[48:16] Mike Abrams: But so if I go back to Grizabella, I think about it as, like, a family member that you have, like, ex communicated, and then all of a sudden you're now saying, You know what, let's we're gonna be back like, let's start. Let's like, let's restart this relationship, and we're gonna bring you back in. But then you're immediately, so I guess it depends on your definition, what the reborn is,

[48:37] Speaker 2: that's exactly, that's precisely it. And that was what I was what I was going to say, which is, I think you and I have different ideas about what the Heaviside Layer is. I think it's a transition. I don't think it's a destination. I don't think it's heaven. I think it's a spiritual transition. Like I said, like I think that I'm not very well versed in New Testament, but I do feel like it's, you know, that it's like Easter, like she's going to, well, right? She's, she's going to, I mean, also she that she sang for her supper like she got. She went into that family reunion with a goal, and she won, like she got, what she she was. I mean, it's almost like going in and saying, like, I'm really sick and I need to be able to afford this cure, and everyone rallying around and saying, here, we all chipped in. I

[49:41] Mike Abrams: so I agree, I agree with that, but I feel like, then doesn't Gus need the same thing? Like, is Gus making it next year? Like we got two worthy candidates?

[49:55] Speaker 2: like, No, it wasn't. But also it like, transitioned into just like, and now we go. Go to this play I was in was like a real schnooze for all involved. Listen, Gus is a heartbreaking example of a life well lived. I mean, Gus doesn't seem to have like he doesn't have, like, the same kind of I want, I need, I regret you're not you're not like, you're not pummeled with these feelings of injustice around him. It's It's sad when people get old, but when he looks back, his memories, so to speak, are really fortifying and beautiful, and hers are devastating, and they're couched with commentary around who'd have ever thought that that was Grizabella the glamor cat. I mean, how many actresses do we hear people say that about when they're running an unflattering photo of them and they've had bad work, like anyone goes in and asks for bad work, you know just happens? Yeah, just because we responded didn't get didn't get that one doesn't mean that you know that she's a better person.

[51:17] Mike Abrams: So let me ask you this question. Then, if you're old, Deuteronomy is your criteria change every year like is, or you're going to have a an exiled family member come back next year too. I

[51:28] Speaker 2: think she's more than an exiled family member. I think that she is someone who has been subject to things that maybe she didn't deserve. Yeah, you know, I think that next year,

[51:46] Speaker 2: I think it's in his heart. I think he's just something very He's wise. He just calls it and he and he's spiritual. So it's like a priest, like, you don't you don't question at a certain point, he's like a judge, and you're just like, ultimately, you're a more educated person than I have. But I will say the other thing that Grizz represents, which is really important, because I do want to keep bringing you back to like, actual cats and people who love really, like, you know, real cats Griz represents, like finding a stray or Finding a senior cat, or finding a cat that was harmed. I'm like, I'm gonna cry thinking about you know how worthwhile and meaningful it is to spend your life taking care of an animal who had not had a past that fitted her um Her Majesty and what she was entitled to, which is love and kindness and adulation. So for Grizz to come on and be down on her luck and raggedy and and you could just sort of see it on, on her face, her body language, that she wasn't treated well. To me as a cat owner, you know, and who's adopted rescues, that is the redemption that we are searching for with our experiences, with our with our pets. So, yeah, I, I absolutely think, you know, Deuteronomy sees that, and it's like placing a, it's like placing a needy animal in a loving home in a way, yeah? So maybe the heavy side layer is her forever home. Yeah?

[53:33] Mike Abrams: I think that's the crux of the difference is, I viewed it as murder, and you're viewing it as a much more like a rescue, like, yeah, like, a much more positive. Like, it's not, you know, it's either my jokes are always that it was. It does feel very murderous, because it's like, we're gonna, like, you're gonna

[53:48] Speaker 2: be reborn. It's like, think about you sending her to the hot springs. She's

[53:52] Speaker 3: gonna go to the farm that, you know, we're no farm.

[53:55] Speaker 2: You're gonna be Canyon Ranch for a couple weeks, and she's gonna come back and she look amazing.

[54:00] Mike Abrams: I like the theory that the heavy side layer is just a like spot up in the rafters of the Winter Garden, and so she's just gonna go she's gonna go there. I think we have a lot of similar takes on this with just one key difference that makes all the decision different. Yes, to be fair, my original joke was, is that I thought it was X Factor on drugs. And if I'm choosing, from the X Factor standpoint, I'm putting Tugger and most athletes together as one direction. I'm sending them together. Well,

[54:28] Speaker 2: you're, yeah, you've got your producer hat on, and, yeah,

[54:31] Mike Abrams: that's the story. It's fun. You get like, Who's, who's, uh, song Did I enjoy the most? Maybe,

[54:36] Speaker 2: but memory, I mean, a star is a star, and she's that song. She has that song for a reason, and that is the song that, like TS Eliot did not write the lyrics to it was inspired, but Andy had to, like, find Andy went through a few different people to figure that one out and recorded it. And oh, my God, I do

[54:53] Mike Abrams: have the producer hat on, because I'm always like, yeah, she'd be a really good package. Yeah, you tell the story about how she how she left the family, and then she. Coming back and then she comes out and singing, it would be hard to beat that. You

[55:03] Speaker 2: need a star. I mean, you need a star, like, even now when they tour, or when they brought it back to Broadway, like, you really only need one star to do that show. It's an ensemble show, except for Grizz. You need a, yeah, you need, you need a very powerful Buck Lee or, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Well,

[55:22] Mike Abrams: this has been so fun, I didn't change your mind, but that's okay. I've got time.

[55:27] Speaker 2: What about Deuteronomy? What he could do? You think he could choose himself?

[55:32] Mike Abrams: I think eventually he has to go right, like, because they, they portray monkey strap is next in line. So if you take that is

[55:38] Speaker 2: absurd, monkey strap is at the please. He's like 28 you

[55:47] Mike Abrams: If older army leaves, then who's taking over?

[55:52] Speaker 2: He's coming back. I'm not saying it's a revolving door, but it is not like the grave. They wouldn't be competing if do you think this is a show about cats like, like, nobody dancing so they get you.

[56:07] Mike Abrams: I think that they come back as, like, a young, new it's not like you're coming back as Grizabella part two. You're coming back as as another cat, like you're coming back, but

[56:21] Speaker 2: she does her bag. That's, why do you think they have whoever? Why do you think they have so many names?

[56:26] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I guess that's, that's the that's our biggest difference is I viewed it as such a different it is, I think I reviewed it very literal, which is, like, we're gonna send them off, they're gonna they're gonna be reborn, and we're gonna get a whole new reborn. Is

[56:39] Speaker 2: the important part, because otherwise it's like Wicker Man. Well,

[56:45] Mike Abrams: it's a it's like a serial killer, which is, that is a theory. Why are they all

[56:51] Speaker 3: be murdered? That doesn't make any weird show. It's a weird show to begin with. It's a weird show, but

[56:57] Speaker 2: cannot be the premise I look, I love it too.

[57:02] Mike Abrams: It's this is what, why exists, is that these arguments can happen. Yes, and there's a lot of hot takes on the show. Absolutely. I'm just trying to add to that with my, my, my goal, I will say Grizabella does not even have half the votes of this podcast. So when I've I don't keep track. I don't, it's mostly guys. I think

[57:23] Speaker 2: you're, I think you are poisoning people with your ideas. That's my goal. That's my goal. Change being some sort of like, weird electric chair or something. My dream

[57:34] Mike Abrams: is to do a an Edwin drew style show, okay? Show where a different cat goes. There different ending every time. No, you still do. You still do memory. She deserves your song. Oh, I was gonna say, because, good luck finding a song. People cry like that. No, you do memory. But then, instead of the receiving live of like, who goes and you pick somebody to go up on the top after you

[57:54] Speaker 2: sing memory, are you crazy? You're gonna have to write songs that are as as powerful as and I'm not saying good, I'm saying powerful as memory. Nice to

[58:06] Speaker 2: Then he then she, has to go to the heavy the show. What else is that, besides the standing ovation? What else is that, besides the reward for stopping the show? Yeah,

[58:17] Mike Abrams: I will. We'll see. They'll take some workshopping. I'm sure. If I can convince anybody, let me do it, which nobody should, because I have zero ability to do any other part of the show. I couldn't choreography, can't write any of the other stuff. I can't say I can't dance. I just have one opinion on this, and that's it. But clearly we have a slight tweak in differences of of the heavy sense. Gonna

[58:36] Speaker 2: be like, a week before you start sending audience members up there to, like, ride the tire, and then it'll become an amusement park ride, just because it'll just be called the tire. Yes, I

[58:45] Mike Abrams: asked to go up to the heavy side, layer in the tire, and I was not allowed. It's a there's some safety concerns. This has been so fun for having me. How can people stay in touch? Find you on social media?

[59:02] Speaker 2: That's just my name on social media, on Instagram, and I'm not calling it x, because you can't do that, but I'm I'm around. You'll, you'll find me if you'll find me, if you need me, yeah.

[59:16] Mike Abrams: Well, this has been so fun. Thank you so much for coming on. And thank you so much for having me, and thanks everyone else for listening to this episode of the wrong cat died. The podcast breakdown the cat Satur feet to follow along. You can subscribe on Apple podcast Spotify, or anywhere else to listen to podcasts. Follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Tiktok and threads at the wrong cat died. Or check out our website, the wrong