This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ariana Grande, Hi, I'm Cynthia ARIBO, and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network. Visit vpn.fm, to discover more.

[0:25] Mike Abrams: cat tied the podcast, breaking of the cat. Sash V I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. This summer, he was the magical Mr. Police in the city springs Theater Company, regional production of Cats. Before that, he was Mr. Mr. Lees on the international tour and Mungo Jerry and the Western revival of cats. So welcome Harry Francis, and thank you for joining me. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to have you here. We're actually live, which is also makes us way more fun, because it's rare that we get to do it these days. Most of this is virtual, but I always got to start at the beginning, the very beginning, of your cat's history. Yes, when did you first see it? When was your first experience with it? Like, let's get from the very first time you saw it.

[1:03] Speaker 2: So my first performances of cats were age six for my parents dumping around the living room. Tried to be Jacob Brent. So that was my first introduction. I actually remember I want to say, did Hey, Mr. Producer, come up first? Maybe that was my introduction, where I saw a bit of it on the camera, Macintosh celebration. But I remember when the film came out, the 98 film came out, and I remember very clearly going to Apollo, which was a bit like Blockbuster. It was our UK video store, and convinced that the first day it comes out, age six, that this is where I can go and get it. Of course, they had no idea what I was talking about. So I remember very clearly marching my mom and say, We have to go because I want to see the want to see this film. Anyway, we got hold of the VHS, and I was obsessed. I watched it day in, day out. My parents must have gone crazy hearing it on repeat in the background, but I was so drawn to its theatricality. I was so inspired by the dancing, um, but yeah, I was, you know, like a lot of kids, I was just obsessed with it and, and, yeah, it was. And I've been so fortunate over the years to have met and have worked with so many people who were in that film. And every time, I'm always a bit starstruck. So that's my introduction. And then years and years, years later I I auditioned, if I was, I nearly did the show a few times. I was offered a track as a swing in the German production in the tent tour, which I didn't end up taking. But there was always a part of me that was just desperate to do the show. And yeah. So when, when they had, they had the production on at the London Palladium, and that was the first time I saw the show live. And it felt like living that chartered dream again, seeing the whole show come to life. And I was so sad that it was coming off. And I thought, Oh, that's such a shame. I wish I could have been a part of this. And then I was auditioning for something else, and our pianist for the audition. Walked out the room, and I overheard him talking to someone else, and he said, Yeah, I'm playing to the cats revival. And, uh, yeah, they're going to close the show, take it out of town, then bring it back in again. And suddenly I didn't care about the audition. I was about to go in, yeah, I think it was seven by seven brothers. Suddenly I didn't care about that. I was suddenly thought, all I want to do is be in cats. So audition for it. And I was auditioning for most awfully skimble shanks. And Munger Jerry eventually got the job. But playing manga Jerry and under studying skimble Shanks, which was so exciting, however, there was always a part of me that was desperate to play most awfully, especially as that was such a big inspiration to me, but I had the best time playing mother Jerry in Blackpool. And then we went back to the London Palladium did a great run there. And then I thought my time in the junkyard was done. I, you know, I would have loved to have gone back, but I moved on to other things. And thought, Okay, well, that was a lovely part of my career. And then years later, they were taking the tour out to China, and for some reason they couldn't find a manga. Jerry and I happened to be doing a ballet class next to where they were doing auditions, and I saw the casting director. And as I walked out the studio, I get a phone call saying, Hey, um, are you available? Could you come and play manga? Jerry and I, I thought about it. I thought, I want to do the show again, but I want to go back as something else. I said, Look, I would love to come back, but please consider me for something else in the future. In the future. And luckily, the guy they had lined up to play most of these got offered another job a few weeks before starting, and without even auditioning me, they just called me up and said, Can you jump in and do it? So I Yeah. I got asked to go into the into the show. So I went over and I did the tour in China. So we went to Wuhan, Nanjing, Shanghai, Beijing, Wuxi, and then we went to the Philippines afterwards, and Singapore. And then COVID happened. So, so that happened. And then during the pandemic, I made this film, cat. In quarantine, which had 333, cast members from around the world who had been in the show. And my reason for that was because I was planning to go back to the tour during 2020 and I never got my final performance with that tour, because I left the tour thinking I'm going to be back in a few months doing it again. So I never had closure. So I thought I want to do something for myself to celebrate my time on the show, and it was such a great project. It took me nine weeks to make so if you haven't seen the film, check it out. Cat in quarantine and but also for me, it was a big celebration of Gillian Lynn. Although they had named a theater after her in London, I didn't think in her final years, she was celebrated in the way she should have been, with the show being re choreographed and lots of changes being made, and having been the one of the final companies to work with her, like anyone who worked with her, I had so much love and respect for her, and I wanted to celebrate her work, so I made that film, and then moved to the US, and so moved here a year ago, and my first professional performing job here was doing cats again, but this time directed by by oak Lee. And the majority of the show, I want to say about 80% of the show, was the original choreography. It was Julian limbs. And bio directed the show and added her own moments to it, and she did a great Macavity fight with a few other sections, which was fun. And Jacob Brent came in to teach Gillian Lynn's work, which was so exciting, getting to work with the guy who inspired me to dance. So it was a great full circle. And as it was only 15 performances, it was really nice to go for the version of Mr. Police that would have maybe been too hard to do eight shows a week. I thought I'm going to give every single trick, jump, extra thing that I ever wanted to do in this number so we added even more into it. So it was great to go. I can handle this. My body can handle 15 performance days. And it was a great production. It was great. That was a very long answer to your Fauci

[7:07] Mike Abrams: I love it because there's a lot of things that I have follow ups on. So we'll tackle these individually. Sure. I also think, like, I guess I'll start with the cats in quarantine. Was pretty early on in me doing this as well. You know, I started this podcast leading up to to the 22,019 movie. And so I kind of was gonna end it, and then it kind of kept going, because people started continuing to want to interview with me, sure. And it was I got sent this, and I remember we chatted, yeah, in probably 2020 and here we are today, in 2023 finally getting this to work. Yeah, but we talked originally because of that video, and so I was so glad to be able to make this work. And it was one of those things. I was like, Man, this is still going everywhere, like everyone. There's so many people

[7:54] Speaker 2: in it, and there's no end to a catch journey. It's now. In fact, as

[7:58] Mike Abrams: I keep recording these, I'm like, Yep, I I've got, I've got more people to talk to, like I've talked to probably three people in your video, I think, and so, well,

[8:06] Speaker 2: yeah, it's endless. Yeah, the thing that was so special with that time, you know, it was a lonely time in 2020, and I set up, I set out to do this project without much thought. I just made a very similar film for the chorus line company, but that was what, maybe 20 cast members or less. It was a much smaller project. And without thinking about it, I just put it on social media. Anyone who's ever been in the Jilin production send me this footage, and here's an email address. And then the video started coming in. I thought, Oh, hang on, I'm going to have so many people. How am I going to make this work? So I ended up emailing other people and saying, Can you send me this section, that section? And I decided I was going to do the entire Jellicle Ball. But the thing that was really special was I made sure I responded to every single person who sent me a video, because it was so moving that I'd spend days downloading these videos, and right at the end of the day, one more email would come through, and I'd see a video with somebody in a park somewhere with a cat's tail and their wig from, I don't know, from the 80s. And I go, somebody has spent time doing this for themselves, but also for me and for Jillian, and it was so special to have that. But I had this wonderful interaction with so many cast members, including a guy called Stephen hack, who was one of the original swings on Broadway. And as soon as he found out what the project was going to be, he rounded up people like Ken page and a lot of the original cast members in New York. And I had so many wonderful emails backwards and forwards to people who would also send me pictures and videos of all the wigs. They've still gone the costumes. So I made lots of pen pals, basically. And there are still people I meet today in the city that I go up to them, I say, hey, we haven't met, but we know each other because we've spoken. And you were in the film. So, um, yeah, I've had a few interactions in New York because of that film. That's that's

[9:53] Mike Abrams: so cool, yeah. I mean, it's one of those things that like, for me, even hearing someone who's not been involved in it, you know, didn't do it. I was in the. And say, I haven't sung it, but to hear everyone's stories, it's like, you get to hear these people reminisce and think back to a time that was really usually powerful in their life. You know, it's like a very, uh, intense show. And so you get a lot of like you and you, you become, it's like a family at the end of it. So it's been really fun to like even just hear that as an outsider in, yeah, of all those different experiences, this show is

[10:22] Speaker 2: so painful and difficult to do if you don't have a great company around you. And I've been so fortunate that every company I've had, you become a tribe. You support each other, and especially the first time where I had a partner, I had a rumble teaser, my friend Georgie George Ashford, that's another person, Georgie Levin, and different Georgie, you had your support system. So whenever you would do your makeup and stare at yourself in the mirror and go, How am I going to do two shows a day? You had people around you, and we'd lift each other and we'd go out and we'd kill it, and we'd do a great show every day, yeah? And that's what makes the show so special, because it's an ensemble piece and it's

[11:03] Mike Abrams: a tribe. It truly is a tribe. Yeah, okay, I want to go back to the Wesson revival, because you got to perform with street Tugger I did, which there's not a lot of people that get to say that, and it's a very polarizing piece of the show. So has a I know you weren't Mustafa please back then, but I'm curious to like as you've been, Mustafa is now in other productions, and there is definitely a Tugger mestophiles dynamic. Sure. How did that dynamic differ? Or did it differ between a Tugger Mustafa is when it's the street Tugger versus when it's more of the traditional Tugger, and street Tugger is the nickname. It's, you know, more contemporary.

[11:41] Speaker 2: So I, I don't really feel like with that version, that relationship was very strong for me. What didn't work now, let me just firstly say we had, I had three different street tuggers, Antoine, Jack and Marcel, and they were all extremely talented and brought different things to the show. However, the thing that for me, that didn't work, and the reason, I think, why they went back to the original Tugger, is they had two Munger Jerry. They made him cheeky and naughty and all those things, but he wasn't this kind of sexy rock star that came on, yeah, which was a very different energy to mistoolies. Is it a different energy? And I think that's why there's this kind of rivalry, and then a love, and there's all these different things that people look into with those two characters, um, especially when it when it's quack so and he's thinking he's a terrible ball. And then by act two, when crack says, Now most of these you've got him singing his praises. So there's all these different elements to it. Watching mark in London and Jack and everyone working together, I don't remember really seeing there being much of a dynamic between the two. So it was kind of out of nowhere that Tugger starts singing about him. I feel like with the original version, there's such a big contrast in qualities of these two characters that there's this more to read into. I think, yeah,

[13:10] Mike Abrams: it's more written into it. It feels like it, yeah, especially with the instead of it just being a line, it's a line. But also, like, what does that line mean? Is it a friendship? Is it a relationship? Like, it's clear that there is some, some bond in some way. And I have not been able to see a street Tugger performance. Besides, you know, a YouTube clip of just the song, you know, I've been able to see a little bit of it, but it's hard to see the whole like, there's not a two and a half hour version for me to watch very I

[13:34] Speaker 2: don't think you're missing out on March. Again, the actors we had playing it were all wonderful, and they were so talented. Um, it was a work in progress. I think it's a work in progress that should have been workshopped, and they could have discovered it doesn't work. It they when I saw the show live for the first time, before I went into it, I remember the disappointment of seeing all these wonderful numbers, seeing monkey, Jerry, Robert, he's alive, and seeing how dynamic that number is, and then tug a burst through, and you go, I want John partridge. I want that guy with a big collar to come through. And the guy did a great job, and he's a talented dancer, and he was working so hard, but the it's everyone's favorite cat, so the fact that they would play with that one, it was confusing. And when I went back into the show, what was so wonderful gillian's world was not hip hop, surprisingly, but she worked so hard to keep adapting the number. She then eventually had us all moving more with him. So originally, we even quite static and sang at him, and then he wrapped and then he would do a solo. She kept trying to add us into the choreography more a bit like the original number, to bring more energy. She kept trying and trying. And that was so wonderful to actually have a part of the experience where we got to see her create, as opposed to just replicate the production. And she was trying so hard to make it work with him. And then, yeah, it just, it just never, for me, paid off. And so when I returned to. The show with the proper target. I remember getting to that number and going, Oh, this is what it should be. Yeah, it just works.

[15:07] Mike Abrams: It's easy to look back at it now, because it's like, we're looking at it from later of, like, all right, it didn't work. A lot of people said it didn't work, and we're, we're viewing it, whereas I especially have to talk to, I've talked to Daniel, who did it as that, you know, performed as that Tugger. I do kind of, like, you know, in the moment, I probably, I'm probably not against it, like, because change has changed. Like, there's going to be people against change, no matter what you do. And there's some current Broadway shows that have been on for a while that have tweaked and make changes, and there's some people still super angry at those changes. And there's some things where I'm like, You know what, that's actually probably a good little change. Well,

[15:41] Speaker 2: there are also lots of changes that people for instance, Mugga, Jerry, Robert, teaza, the original London version is very different to the one Yeah, in the 98 film. Anyone who saw the version before the 98 film or before the Broadway production, that's the version, they go, No, it should have always been the hat. Now, I like both. I prefer the most recent one. And the show has changed over the years. You know, Karen came in and redesigned the makeup, which is the version we see in the 98 film. The costumes were adapted over time, so the show has morphed and changed. And I'm all for change. I'm all for I'm all for them cutting girl tiger and the Siamese cats. I was definitely up for that change. And the last version I did, where we did the version where grout Tiger was cut, and it went from Gus the same as the Norway revival, yeah. And it went into the rompers cast. It went into because the poly calls, I love that change, yeah, the show short and sweet, and I thought the storytelling was clear. So there are some changes over the years that I go, Oh, I'm so pleased to make that change. And so I'm so pleased they tried the wrapping Tugger. I just think it's one of those things. It was such a big change, if you're going to change it, change the whole show. Yes, it was just too jarring in the middle of the show that it was, you know, it was the, it was pretty much watching the 98 film still on stage, and then suddenly this one big element, yeah, that was such a big change.

[17:11] Mike Abrams: Yeah, that's, it's so fascinating to, kind of, like, think back to it, because it is, I mean, it's at that point, it's been running, what, 20 years. I know more than that, maybe even more, yeah. And so it is a, it's a big, a big adjustment on something that people have, yeah, but, you know, they know. Whereas I think a lot of times, when you make some of these tweaks early on, it's like, all right, I wasn't, we weren't set on it. Versus, now there's an entire movie, yeah, there's people that have, it's recorded. It's been played in every dance class for every child. And sure has in there, you know. So, like, it's there, and there's that, that piece, and I think, like, you know, even get a little bit with the new choreography, like it that's changed, but that still sticks to the source material for the most part. Yeah, yeah. So that's just more of a contemporary, you know, new choreographer change. So, but even that has a lot of people that are like, there are some passionate joy, and lens is only one I want to see ever. And all I

[18:02] Speaker 2: can say is I remember so clearly having these rehearsals with Jillian, because I think she knew this. I think she was told at the beginning of our run that the show was going to be re choreographed completely for Broadway. And I think then they later brought her in. So it was a collaboration. But I remember before that was maybe, uh, agreed upon with her, she had just seen Hamilton, and I remember she came into rehearsal and she was raving about how brilliant the choreography was. So one thing I will say, anyone who who isn't a fan, I can least say that I'm sure that was a very hurtful experience for Jillian, and that's why a lot of people defend her, but at least she really admired Andy's work. Yeah, so I'm sure there would have been lots of lovely moments in that collaboration. Oh, I mean, I mean, I wasn't in the room, so I don't know, but I do remember her raving about Hamilton and seeing the choreography. I do remember her talking about that. So I I always hope that there was a respect.

[19:03] Mike Abrams: Yeah, they're two brilliant people. I mean, they're two brilliant choreographers. I do think, like, I've the more I've thought about it and heard more about it in general, because as someone, again, who knows nothing about I've never done a choreography or anything. It has to be hard in Andy shoes even, of like, here's one of the most famous dance numbers ever. You want to stay true to somewhat of it, yeah, and then put your own spin on it, but also stay true to, you know? So it's like, it's got to be kind of hard to versus starting from scratch.

[19:29] Speaker 2: Well, that's the thing. In a way, it would have been easier if they said, This is a new production, completely new set, new costumes, new new concepts, that maybe would have been even easier. And, yeah, it's a really difficult task. But, you know, I, I think, I think he's, I think he's also a genius. I think he's, he's his work I've seen over the years is just amazing, yeah, and the way he makes the entire stage move, makes the whole Yeah, I think, I think he's wonderful. So, so, yeah, there will always be people who traditionally. This, and in some areas I will be as well. But no, I also I think we've got to always experiment. Yeah, otherwise, art to stay static, and I think we've always got to give it a chance. If it doesn't work, it doesn't eliminate what was there before exactly we can we can have a play, we can see. And if it all fails, we just go back to what it was like they did with the Tugger. Yeah. I've always really,

[20:23] Mike Abrams: this is sports where, you know, these, these major sports that have happened, have minor rule changes, and there's a group of people that are like, Oh, how did you change baseball? Yeah. But then it's like, well, you know what? It's more entertaining now, you know, it's like, there's some value of those things. And, yeah, some things are going to change. And, like, you have to evolve at the time. And so when you're 40 plus years of doing it, you have to figure out that those tweaks. So I'm all for it, but it's fun because I get to hear all the dissenters of it. You know, like having this show, I get to hear all the feedback. And yeah, as someone who isn't knowledgeable enough to tell you any of this stuff, anyways, it's kind of fun to listen to all the different arguments. Sure, sure. I'm like, Yeah, great, sure. Yeah. That's really interesting. I'm like, you know, my whole show is about why grizabell is not the right Jellicle choice. Like, I couldn't tell you the first thing about the

[21:08] Speaker 2: choreography got you, yeah, yeah. So let's talk about

[21:12] Mike Abrams: the international tour. So you're in overseas. I mean, you're in China, and, yeah, I've heard a little bit about different audience. Like, you've had extremely different audience demographics, basically, of being in the West End, yeah, being overseas and then being in Atlanta, you know, like outside Atlanta, yeah. What did you notice about reception? Because, I mean, it's still widely like everyone loves this show, like people are coming or are floored by it. But I've heard that there are some like nuances to audience, like behaviors and reactions the different places you've done it.

[21:47] Speaker 2: Well, I would say China was the most interesting, because from city to city, because China was so huge, we saw such a huge difference, and we opened up the Culture Center in Shanghai, which is, you know, a very beautiful modern theater that has operas and ballets and touring companies coming in. So they're very used to international companies coming in. And they were very polite audience. They were very polite, not very loud. At the end, they would go crazy, but throughout the show it would you felt like you were in a library. It was like dead silence before the show would start. There was just no atmosphere. It was just very and then our second venue on the tour was Wuhan, and we were in this crumbly, beautiful, but broken down old theater where there was maybe one western toilet working backstage, and we were going, oh god, what's this place going to be like? And it was the best audience I think we've ever had with the show, because it's like a rock concert. Yeah, we came out at the beginning to do, you know, the green eyes, the flashing eyes during the overshore. And I remember the place going crazy. I remember during my stuff allies, all the very basic tricks, like the can that pops out with all the silk, the audience gasping and flapping and cheering. And I felt like, Oh, this is like, I don't know, it felt like an audience who weren't familiar with it, who were taking it in through fresh eyes. Yeah, so exciting to perform it that way, where it wasn't people going, Oh, I love this moment. Oh, I know this bit coming up. It was people naturally reacting to what they were seeing for the first time. There may be some people there who were cat fans, but in general, it felt like a very, very real experience, like a fresh, new experience. So, yeah, no, it was, for me that was the biggest difference. West End was lively. It was great. You know, who knew what to expect there? I

[23:38] Mike Abrams: kind of, I mean, it's such an interesting, like example of that, because I've thought not, not that extreme. But you know when, when you hear about tours in the US, even, you know, we're sitting here in New York where, yeah, we're literally 10 minutes, not even up for three subway stops from anything you want to see, basically, and a bunch of stuff that's amazing, that you know, is extremely high quality, something that's like, really off beat, but you've got every version of theater here, sure. And then you go to these small towns in rural America, and they get two shows a year, three shows a year, maybe. And it's whatever is touring, which means that it's been successful enough to you have a tour, versus maybe something that's a little bit more edgy, and then trying here that you can catch in New York. And so I think that I'm curious if, like, that sounds like that's what was happening, too, when you're traveling out International, sure, they might, they might not have ever seen this. They probably don't have the VHS, they this is the first time they're seeing it at all. And maybe that, that theater doesn't get much in general. And so, yeah, they're, you know, this is the the outing. Well, we

[24:40] Speaker 2: would find a lot of the fans who or people who either were fans from previous cats tours, because obviously the show had been to China before, maybe hadn't played certain venues. I'm not sure if it been to Wuhan before, but a lot of the fans would travel from Shanghai to Beijing to Nanjing. They would travel around and see the show numerous times. So we would have a fan. Fan base who would, you know, be repeat viewers, who would come over and over, so we would have that fan base who maybe would bring that energy with them. But, yeah, it was, it was, No, it was so exciting. But, um, the audiences in Atlanta were amazing as well.

[25:14] Mike Abrams: We're gonna take a quick break, and then we back for more of the wrong cat died. Tell me about Elena. Yeah, it

[25:21] Speaker 2: was great. It was, it was great. Beautiful, huge theater, the city springs Theater Company, the buyers theater. And it's beautiful. It's stunning. I was, it was such a perfect first job in the States. Amazing facilities. And the head of marketing ask me for a photo of me as Mr. Lees. So I had a picture I had taken on my phone backstage with my face in the mirror. And he was very, very clever, and took this photo from my iPhone, and he blew it up, and it was on a huge billboard right outside the theater, and he did a lot of photoshopping to it. So you couldn't tell that it was a photo just from my phone, but it was hilarious walking in everything and seeing this huge picture of my face, as most awfully as you're on a billboard. Yeah, it was okay. But okay, we'd swap in with other adverts, but it was literally by the theater. So of course, I had a very, very loudly, you know, shout, oh, this is embarrassing. That's my face. Just everyone would tell that and look at it. But, yeah, no, it was great. And we had a mix of people who, you know, there are a few people who've done the show before, Caitlin bond, she came back, and she was the Victoria, and a few other people who did other regional productions. So, yeah, but also, it was nice to come in with a company who didn't know the show, and we all had to find it in our own way. That wasn't necessarily the same process as doing the traditional version, but there was new ways. And by orc added new things, and she we did this very, very, uh, entertaining day, well, actually, very interesting day, where we sat around in a circle for the afternoon, and we all came up with our backstories of our cat and where they come from. And it actually, in a way, it was very interesting to see where people's minds went. Some people, I mean, the guy playing with cavity, his story was deep. I can't remember it now, but it was fascinating to see where people's minds go when they really get to think about it, and they really take the text and what they have and go, How can I pull this apart? Okay, well, what could this tell me? And it was very interesting to hear people come up with ideas. And it, yeah, so it was, it was interesting. And then we had Jacob come in, who gave a lot of his own backstories that some I had heard, some I hadn't. And, yeah, you know, there were different versions. So it was interesting to to,

[27:40] Mike Abrams: yeah, that was, that was probably the first time. And this now explains this, because I didn't realize that that's how that went. I recorded with Jacob, and we talked for an hour plus, yeah, we could have went for two more. Oh, yeah. And I want him back at some point, like I feel I can have to another round of questions,

[27:59] Mike Abrams: Yes, that'd be full circle. He's ready. He's not ready yet. He's

[28:03] Speaker 2: not yet. But I said to him, because when I saw he put on Facebook that he was going to be returning to the junkyard, and I was about to do the show, and I messaged him. I said, Is this the one in Atlanta? And he said, Yes. And in my head, because Bayou was directing it, I thought, wonder if he's going to be in it. Maybe he's going to play Buster for Jones. And so I said, are you in it? And then he said, No, no, I'm going to be, you know, assisting and teaching Jillian's work, which he did amazingly. You know, he hadn't taught the show for 10 years, and it's all that, like,

[28:31] Mike Abrams: even talking to him, it's like he didn't, he remembered everything,

[28:35] Speaker 2: yeah, everything. And so that was wonderful, but, uh, but yeah, what was I saying? Well, I was

[28:40] Mike Abrams: gonna say that was the first time I had been tipped off of, like, you know, I've been doing this for four years now. I mean, over four years now, and I've always kind of like, you know, there's a good listener base, and it's fun, and I know people listen to it, but I never really, like, I've been joking I want to influence the show. Like, I want to influence the show and, yeah, get people to make a different, jealous choice. And, you know, kind of the humor of that, but also like rethinking through their 40 years of telephone. I call it cats telephone, yeah, which is, there's not a there's not one right answer for a lot of these things. And so that was the first time that I had somebody actually message me. And was like, people are listening to your show to hear from their other characters who have played the show, to try to figure out the backstory. So it's like, they're, they're using previous episodes to say, like, Okay, here's how this bomb Bally arena thought about being bombed by arena. This had this person, Mongo Jerry, thought about being mango Jerry. And that was like, eye opening to me,

[29:33] Speaker 2: yeah. And actually, no, it's true, actually, because I actually listened to Jacob's recording with you during the rehearsal process, I remember seeing his name come up, and I was like, Oh, I better have a listen. What else he has to say. But also, the thing I do recall him saying is sometimes people read into things like you'd watch and go, Why is pounciful interacting with Cassandra at this point? And maybe they've got this relationship. And actually, maybe they would just. Bring each other's ears something silly, and just joking around, but sometimes we look into everything. But that's what I think is so wonderful about the show, is there is so much room for interpretation, and that's what can keep it very, very fresh. And Chrissy Cartwright, I need to give a big shout out to Chrissy. Chrissy has been teaching the show in the UK, international tours, South Korea, I want to say, since its second year in London, I think she joined them, and she, I mean, anyone who's done the show, who's British has worked with Chrissy. She's just extraordinary. And the way she teaches the show was so much care, love, but she also allows you to find it for yourself. For instance, say, if you're doing I know you're in the middle of Gus or one of these numbers, she doesn't dictate where you have to sit on the junkyard. She lets you find your place. She gives you some encouragement. She gives you some some guidance, but she allows you to find it. But also, she wants the show to always look the best. So for me with misto police, I'm a left Turner. I do everything to the left. I can do it to the right to the rest of the show. I had to do everything to my bad side. So I can do it both sides, luckily. But it got to the most awfully number, and I said, Can I turn to the left here? Can I turn to the can I do my coupe Jettas around the stage? Can I go to the left? And she was like, Yeah, let's change it. So she allowed me to change the number. So I think I'm the only person I from what I can see who has done pretty much the entire number on the opposite side, because she wants to know the show to always look as best as it can. So I have to give a big shout out to her, but she really she gives you the information on each character, but she does give you the space to discover it for yourself. So my manga Jerry was very different to Ben Yates, who was just before me, who was wonderful, and I it's different to other monkey Jerry, I've seen my skimble shanks. Was very different. Was very different from Evan, who I understudied. He played at Welsh, and he was wonderful. And I played mine a little bit more like Rex Harrison, very, very clipped, and I guess probably sounded like Stewie from Family Guy. But yeah, so Chrissy really has looked after the show beautifully for so many years, but she does, she allows that space, and she allows that interpretation. So yeah, there is no right or wrong answer. But sometimes it's interesting for someone to plant those thoughts in your head, because it makes you go, Oh, I've never thought of it this way. And I mean, the question I've had a million times is manga Jerry and Robert, teaser, are they siblings? Are they are they flirting? I mean, our version was different. It was definitely very flirty and that kind of way. So we tried to not see them as siblings. But I've also seen versions where they are more like, you know, brother or sister having a bit of banter and playfulness. So, yes, there's lots of interpretation well,

[32:44] Mike Abrams: and I think there has to be because, and I think that's like, I firmly believe that that's why the show is so successful, is because it isn't so this person has to go and do it this way, and this thing at this moment, like, there is enough space that you get to like, it doesn't the core doesn't change, but there's enough that you get to have fun. And you can do it eight times a week without it being a, you know, complete drain, yeah, and have those tweaks. And then it's also, I think it's what adds to the lure, because you get a lot of conversations that you probably don't get if you don't have, like, our bomb and demeanor, sisters or not, or the friends or not. And there's, like, Sure, a pretty mixed bag on some of these thoughts of what they are, and it's coming from one book, a poem. There's not that much written word on it. Like there's not, there's not an answer for that, unless someone who originally created it in the 80s decided to, I'm gonna add here's exactly what I did. I firmly believe they didn't think through most of those things, like no one thought that. There's a lot of questions I have asked that I am convinced nobody thought about when they first did the show. And that's that's okay, and that's what makes it fun completely,

[33:47] Speaker 2: um, and it keeps it interesting for so many fans who watch the show over and over, because there will always be new dynamics, yep. And, you know, actually, in a way, I said about the street Tugger being more like a manga Jerry because he was cheeky when Antoine was still with the show in rehearsals, who had been in the production just before ever played in I remember doing all the improv sections and having so much fun with him on stage, because that's why there was a different interaction, because you suddenly had two people who were very cheeky, who wanted to mess around. We wanted to tie people's tails to the set, and we had two people who were very naughty, as opposed to Tiger having a different energy. But, you know, I think for fans to or audience members to see the show and just look in for new dynamics, and I think that's what keeps it interesting, on why the show will always be different. I went to see the show the last time I watched the show was in South Korea. My girlfriend is the rumble Well, she was the rumble teaser on that tour that also went to Taiwan. And it was just before I did the show in Atlanta. And it was so wonderful with some space to go back and re watch it. And again, people brought their own energy, their different flavor, to each character. And it was so interesting to see. See that. And I, I remember at one point someone said to her, Oh, you should play it more like this. I was thinking, No, why should you have to play it like this? Just because you liked the way somebody else did it, the way she did it was wonderful, and she was fantastic. So there, you know, there's, there's, um, there's always room for interpretation. There's always room for interpretation, which is so nice as a performer.

[35:23] Mike Abrams: Yeah, yeah. So your version of mango Jerry and rebels definitely flirty, because it's your girlfriend, and you played well,

[35:29] Speaker 2: she wasn't. I know you did that together, but yeah, I always thought it was that yeah and yeah, because obviously there's loads of bits in choreography where he's checking her out. So I never saw it as a sibling thing. The only thing that makes you think that is maybe because they look similar. You say makeup. But yeah, I just, my thing is people always, I don't know that there's just saying that. People say you, you end up being attracted to someone who has something about them that might be looking like yourself. There might be a yes, I've heard people say that before, and you go, okay, um, maybe that's what, why they're drawn together as they look similar. But I'd like to think that they're, they are not siblings. There's, yeah, there's a bit more flirting involved in the meekness. The

[36:12] Mike Abrams: most recent people I've talked to who have done that have all said that. So yeah, it's not been brother sisters and answer more. There are plenty others where it's a 5050, split, sure, and I've heard all across the board, but I do what that leads me to my the question I do want to ask is, what are some of the other relationships over the like, maybe, where you saw some differences between your three productions, of where, like, this was a really strong duo that maybe didn't play as much in this one, or some of those, Like, different nuances having done it in three versions.

[36:43] Speaker 2: Oh, I'm just trying to think because, well, I can talk about, from my point of view, with Tugger, obviously, I mean, as Mr. Feliz from the international tour and in Atlanta, there was definitely more in the recent one, we had Spencer Dean playing Tugger in Atlanta, and in his number there was a lot more sassiness between the two of us. There was a lot more. It was very, very it was more than just an eye roll. It was very much like I was fed up with having a round. It was, it was, that was a much bigger thing. But we also became our the most awfully summer became more of a double act in many ways, because we interacted a bit more in the combination, and there were a few more moments where he would be involved. So it was very much like we were raising each other up, as opposed to suddenly Tugger, which I always find it out of place. He's so narcissistic, and then suddenly he completely hands it over to misto Phillies. And for me, a nice moving moment, if it works, is when all Deuteronomy appears. And you think he could easily take credit, yeah, and he goes a capture clever as, and he points over to magical Mr. Police. And I used to always play that as, is he gonna give it to me? And if not, it's fine because he's, you know, he's humble, or he won't take but he gives that moment and a lovely turning point for Tugger to kind of say, no, no, this wasn't all me. I brought him here, but he's the person who saved you, and he's the one who saved us all. Um, so, yeah, it was, it was, it was fun to Yeah, I'm trying to think what differences are, though, because then again, I guess me and George had a similar dynamic, but George very much. You sang the number brilliantly, but then he would kind of give me the space to do my most office, as it was less of a double, like he was, like, he would then take a step back and and the stuff police would dance, and then he would step in. But yeah, me and Spence, we had a few more moments throughout. So it was kind of like he was, kind of, he was, you know, egging me on. He was cheering, you know, cheering me on throughout. But we had a few more interactions. Trying to think, though I'm just trying to think what differences there were. Hmm, I know later on, I'll probably think of a bunch of things. But well,

[38:57] Mike Abrams: let's, let's go to some rapid fire there. Yeah, if you, I mean, you've been in multiple productions, played a couple cats. If you could go on one day, any cat, any character, male, female, one night. Who would you want to performance?

[39:10] Speaker 2: One day, Gus, Gus. One day, Gus. I'd love to go back and play skimball. That's something I'd love to do, is to go back, because I only went on once. I needed one performance this one time, and it was I was literally rabbit caught in the headlights. Had so much fun. I got the call, the guy I ever studied would never call out. He would just never did. And then eventually they signed him off. He had an ankle injury, and so I was not ever expecting to go on. I'd done my homework, but so when I got this phone call saying, and I just wrote the theater, I was about to suck my manga Jerry makeup, and he said, right, you're on tonight. I went, Okay, okay. So luckily he was so sweet, and he FaceTimed me, or whatever we had at the time, and he he spoke. He said, Do you want me to talk through you? And he thinks, whatever, that's really kind so, yeah, he was on a. On FaceTime while I did my makeup, and he you spoke through any changes that had happened in the show that I may have not been told about, because they had lots of rehearsals where they wouldn't invite the understudies, or wouldn't want the understudies there, so therefore we would go, he don't know what's like. The whole ground Tiger number changed, and there was a whole pirate number. They had changed it. And I kept saying, Please, can you give me a rehearsal? Because I'm backstage quick changing into the Siamese costumes, and I never get to see it, so I had no clue what they did, because I was always backstage changing. And so he, luckily spoke through the entire number with me. So somehow it went well. I got through it, and I had a great time. So I'd love to go back and do that properly and do a run, and also it's a much easier role physically on the body than most of these. Yeah, I think it would be, and it's still a fun number, so I'd love to do that, but I'd love to do Gus, because it's the number I may have skipped by on the VHS when I was a kid, but what I love now is the simplicity, and it's one of the few moments where you everyone sits still, and you listen to TS Eliot, you listen to some very, very funny lines and very, very funny lyrics. And I just think it's beautiful. I might I come from an acting family, and you know, I'm forever hearing my dad talking about various friends of his who are of a certain age, and they may become quite forgetful, and then suddenly you get them onto the right topic, and then they're 30 years old again. And it's so moving when I think about those people. Because I like, I'd like to think, Yeah, I'd love to draw some of that and add that into it. I also did the show with Barry Hayward, who was he started the show at the New London theater, and as one of the singers, this is when they had booth singers, before they even had the swings doing it. Then eventually, towards the end of the run, they brought him over to be a old jute Guth standby. So he ended the London play and run as the standby that he did every single UK tour, international tour. He then did the first played in run, and then came back to the playdium with us again, and he was part of the furniture. It was like everyone is Barry because he's done every single production, always understudying old jute and Gus. And then the final time he did it was with me in China, in the Philippines and Singapore, and I shared a dressing room with him in Singapore, which was amazing. It was me, Joe, Henry, the manga, Jerry and Barry and his Gus, although he brought lots of his own thoughts and ideas to it, whenever he would do something, I go, I love the way you do that that's really funny, or the way you hold that. And it always gets a big laugh. He'd always go, oh, I can't take full responsibility Tony Timberlake did that, or I was, you know, this person did that. And he would list of all the people over the years he's understudied, and he would always give them credit to the moments. But his version of Gus over the years was drawing in from all the wonderful other actors he had seen, and plus his own flare on top, and it was so beautifully moving. It was the right balance. Was no impersonation. It was his own. But he had drawn all the others. And I feel like, over the years, I've seen my fair share of gusts. So I feel like, I feel like there's a few things. I'm like, Oh, I know these bits work. So yeah, have a go at that.

[43:14] Mike Abrams: You'll be ready one day. Yeah. One day, yeah. I think you're the 98 movie. Part is really interesting too, because it's a little as a kid especially, probably easier to skip over. I think it's also a little different, because the Gus was, of very old, famous, he was blind at the time. Like, it's a, it is much more of like a Gus, yeah, John Mills, but Gus in like, Gus element. Like, it was, like, a much more true. This guy's on his last leg. He died shortly after. I think so it is a very different than, like, you know, you get a, yeah, young theater performer who not young, but, like, someone who still with it enough to be able to dance and do that, whereas he pretty much walked up there singing song, and then they sat him back down,

[43:55] Speaker 2: and he was, when I look back at it, it's, it's such a beautiful performance. Yeah, it's so real. And that's what's so wonderful about it, is it's him in a cat costume, but it's John Mills being of an actor of black caliber, and it's so beautifully done. But yeah, I think at the age that I first watched it, I just wanted to see evangelical ball, and I wanted to see Tugger come back on. Yeah, definitely. But I do, you know, I think it's a and I've seen some wonderful performers do it over the years, and the audience always gets, you know, that the energy changes. I think they start in the what's going to happen? Yeah, the time he comes back on to sing again, or he they think he's done, and he has one more thing to say. The audience always laugh. They're always, you know, no matter what language I see the show in, they're always one round by Gus. He's got so much heart, and so many people identify with Gus, whether that's them personally, or they have a grandparent or they know somebody. And yeah, it's, yeah, it's a really moving moment. So I think one. A hopefully not too soon. I didn't color quite odd enough just yet. Maybe Alan, you

[45:03] Mike Abrams: got some time. You got some time. But I'm, I'm convinced the show will still be going by the time you're ready to do it. I

[45:08] Speaker 2: hope so. I hope so. I Yeah, it will. I don't know what form it will be at that point, but I hope so. I think it'll be a lovely full circle one day.

[45:16] Mike Abrams: So who are your favorite and least favorite? Cats? Characters. Take out performers.

[45:24] Speaker 2: I mean, I'm gonna say most of these is a favorite, okay, I'm gonna say that as a favorite, but that's mainly because it's a common answer. It's a yeah, there's just something otherworldly and magical all the way through. Love rumble teaser. Do you love rumble teaser? There might be some influence. I love Jenny. Any dots. She's, yes, there is Jenny any dots. Is always adorable and and so much fun. Got to be Tugger. Everyone loves Tucker. Yeah, real, real Tugger the and what

[46:00] Mike Abrams: about Dislike?

[46:02] Speaker 2: Dislike Genghis, because it just was very inappropriate, the same the leader of the yes, okay, so definitely that, because that always felt uncomfortable doing. Yeah, so I'm glad that version is no longer being done. Um, do you know what I don't have least favorite cut. I think that all, they all bring something to the show. And that's the thing is, you know, we have done cut shows where you have to cut one of the twins, or you have to cut something every single person in every production I've done, even if the show goes ahead and it's a wonderful show, the show will be different if that person isn't on stage, and every character brings an element, whether that's Alonzo, who's a bit more, you know, snooty and a bit more stuck up, or you've got Cassandra, who's elegant and mysterious, you know, whoever is, they bring something to the show. That character is very much part of the tribe. So there's no one I dislike.

[46:58] Mike Abrams: So the way I look at this question, because I agree with you. I think that they, they all, they all have a place. But I look as like, you got your family. Which is the one that like, who's the family member? Who kind of, who kind of bugs you a little bit like, just personality one has to kind of not, you know that. You know you need them. You know you love them still. But which one is like I could I've had enough of this cat for the tonight.

[47:20] Speaker 2: Oh, the one that I think you can kind of get rid of is this Buster, yeah, okay, because he interrupts the party for a moment, then he disappears. He doesn't bring anything else to it. He's not there at the end. You know, obviously, because that actor becomes someone else. But he just comes in for his moment, then then disappears and goes off to another tribe to eat food there. And, you know, to but he comes in and he shows off, and then he leaves. So for me, he saw the lovely character that everyone loves having around, because he's a bit of fun, but he's one I think you could also, if you had to cut a number, you could cut that quite easily. And

[47:54] Mike Abrams: he was cut from the cruise. So I think

[47:56] Speaker 2: I heard that, yeah, not originally. I think they did the full

[48:00] Mike Abrams: thing. But then they had to realize that you can't have an intermission in a show no one pays for. Which makes sense. Yeah, so it does make sense. Favorite song.

[48:10] Speaker 2: This is gonna be a weird one. I actually love all Deuteronomy, okay, but mainly the instrumental version in the ball. I love the vocal areas of it. I love the way the cast sing, and I love I love that moment, but there's something that I always find it takes me back to my childhood. Is hearing and it's the it's the ballet section that, yeah, the Huntsville of CO Bucha do with the stuff police. And every night, I'd love dancing to that, because it felt like I was jumping back into my six year old moment hearing that. But it's just something beautiful about the way that's played and and then, you know, the movie version, where they played it with a huge orchestra, hearing that music being played like that. It's, for me, it's that I, you know, as a full number. There's lots of wonderful numbers. I do love Mona Jay Robert teaser. I think it's a great number. But for me, that piece of music is the bit that always moves me. I think it's a really beautiful melody, so I have the Old Deuteronomy melody. Yeah. All

[49:05] Mike Abrams: right, most important question I've argued at length, I don't think Grizzle is a choice. So do you want to defend her, or are you going to vote for somebody else?

[49:16] Speaker 2: Okay, there's a few things I think most office gets a real bum deal. He has been brought over. He has dressed up in all the sequence. He has just raised a cat from the dead, or he saved that cat from death. He has done some pretty amazing things. And just as he's just finished this big number and danced for 12 to 15 minutes, Griz comes over in just size, just like she's sneaking that the last minute, and she just decides to, you know, steal his thunder. So I used to always be bitter. I mean, luckily, I was very naughty, and I used to crawl off the stage during memory and die in the wings. So I used to always play into the fact that I. It would be, obviously, when they would all greet her as she's going to Heaviside lair, I would have some understanding for grays, and I would, I would be supportive of it. But I think in my mind, as the stuff leads, I'd be going, you're kidding me. I've literally, I waited the last second so I can jump in there and and steal the show tonight and be the Jellicle choice, and then she would just jump in right after me. How dare she? So, yes, that that would be my. Um,

[50:25] Mike Abrams: so you're, you're voting for my staff, please. Well, from a

[50:30] Speaker 2: selfish point of view, yes, because I for any misophys around the world, that's such a hard number. But also as a character, you think, come on, you just saved Old Deuteronomy. However, putting that aside in the selfish side section, aside or aside myself aside. I would go for Gus because he, he's not. I don't think he, he would expect it. I think he's such a sweet soul. He was lived his life, and he's so he celebrates his life, and he, you know, he'd be very happy to say that was a wonderful life I had and disappear. But I think because of that, I think he deserves a second opportunity. I just don't think he would be desperate for it. He wouldn't do anything to make it happen. Yeah, if anything, he's kind of encouraged by by jelly. She brings him out, and she sits him down, and she sits him down, and she starts to tell everyone's like, No, you need to hear about him. Yeah. And I think even years before, even if he was, you know, a younger version of himself, I don't think he would, unless people really egged him on and said, Come on. You know, they would take him to the pub, as they say in the song, and he would sit around, and he would start telling his stories, I think he would be the person who'd go, yeah, yeah. I've done a few plays, but, you know, he would be humble, yeah. And I think it takes someone to go, no, no, no, come on. You have something to add to us. You something to offer. And so I would still go, I would go for gas, I think Gus. And I think when we did the show in Atlanta, hearing Jacob talking about it more often. I was more persuaded. I thought, actually, yes, Gus would be a great choice. So

[52:06] Mike Abrams: I keep tallies. Am I putting down Mustafa? Is or Gus for you? Put Gus down for me. Okay, okay. I can put one, A, 1b but I do. I'm keeping a running total. And, you know, I'm keeping track, and I'm, I'm happy that Gus is catching up. Yeah. Do many people stick to Grizz? Oh, yeah. I mean, she has half the votes. She has about half of I mean,

[52:26] Speaker 2: it's difficult because, yeah, I look after Gus. I obviously Grizz would be the other choice if, but that's my opinion. However, for the show to work, it has to be Grizz. So that's so I'm going with Gus, but I understand the format the show, it has to be Gris, because it gives you hope for redemption any mistakes you've made in your life. And I'm sure people have gone into detail about all the backstories. Oh, totally. You've heard everything.

[52:54] Mike Abrams: I get the Grizz story. There's no doubt that, like, I it was written, you know, it's, it's not a someone didn't just decide randomly to pick one like there's an arc for this. It doesn't make me happy. Do you know

[53:05] Speaker 2: the story about the opening night in London? No, so there was a bomb scare at the theater. Do you know about this? No, I don't think so. There it was during the the IRA Ira bombings, and there was a bomb scare. They got a call saying, We believe there's a bomb at the New London. I think that I may be giving the story slightly InCorp, but I'm pretty sure this is all right. And this was happening during act two, and they were thinking, right, we need to evacuate the building, but we're so close to the end. The critics, the audience, they need to hear memory. Soon as we get to him the show, we tell everyone to leave the theater straight away. And they just said, if we don't get to this moment, we've got no show, we've we're not gonna have a hit. They have to get to memory, because it's the big turning point. And anyway they get to memory, the place erupts, goes crazy. Alan page, wonderful, wonderful. And as everyone runs off stage at the end of naming of cats, oh, sorry, addressing of cats, they call Brian Blessed aside, who's playing all Deuteronomy. They said, right as soon as the curtain calls done, you have to stop everyone and say, Please evacuate the building. We need to stop straightaway. Anyway, the cast come out, and they do their bows one at a time. Bill Bailey Cassandra, whoever and Brian Blessed eventually runs out. And the orders of cheering, he puts his hands up to say, you know, stop clapping. And they chat, they shout and cheer and clap even more. And he puts his hands up again. And the eventually he stops them. And by this point, he gets silence. He doesn't know what to say, and he just says, There's a bomb in the building. Everyone get out. Brian, bless his dress up as a cat, and he shouted, there's a bomb in the building. Everyone get out. And then, of course, there's panic, and then, of course, there's panic, and everyone starts running and screaming and running out the building. So that was the way the open night went. But they had to get past memory Jeff Shankly, apparently, who was the original manga strap, left the theater in his cat costume. I thought, Well, I'm not going to go to the open night party now. So he decided to get in the car. Apparently, in his cat costume, he went high. Home, and then he came back the next day and returned his costume. So apparently that's how the first night went, but it was so important for them to get to memory otherwise. And the thing that's interesting with the show is people talk about the I Want song in a musical, and for anyone who doesn't know what that is, that's Cinderella sitting on a, I don't know, on a piece of wood somewhere, singing in my little corner, or Eliza singing, wouldn't it be lovely? It would be the hope song. It's the song of what would I like by the end of this show? Or what does this character strive for? Cats is full of I am songs. And that's the biggest difference with this show compared to lots of others. There's not necessarily an I want song, but Grizz has the the storyline that has a finish to it, and she has the, you know, beginning, middle and end. She's come in, you see that no one wants her there. You see that she sticks it out, and by the end of it, you see how the audience, the cast and the characters react to her. So she has that through line. So without that, you haven't got a show. Yeah. So from a creative point of view, I would say Grizabella, but I would still vote for Gus, because I think he's a beautiful character.

[56:08] Mike Abrams: I love it. We're gonna keep Gus as a vote. But I I have softened on my stance a little bit of the over time of this, of like, I'm not I can get it. I can get behind it. Well, this has been absolutely amazing. How can people stay in touch with you and stay in touch with you on social

[56:23] Speaker 2: media? Yeah, give me a follow on Instagram, Harry R Francis, and you'll see lots of cats videos on there. When we were in Atlanta, I did one where there were five of us who had appeared in the chorus line with by orc. And so we came in early one day and we did the entire opening combination, but in our cats costume on the junkyard. And I think all the cats fans were very confused, but kind of loved it. So that video is up there. But yeah, give me a follow, and you may see lots of other cats pictures and videos over the years. So amazing.

[56:54] Mike Abrams: Well, thanks so much for being here sharing stories, great, amazing stories to hear from you. And I hope everyone enjoyed this. This has been fun, and thanks everyone for listening to this episode of the wrong cat died, the podcast breakdown of the cat atrophy. To follow along, you can subscribe on Apple podcast Spotify, or anyone else listen to podcasts, follow us on Twitter, Instagram, tick tock and threads at the wrong cat died. Or check our website, theroncatide.com,