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[0:00] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ariana Grande. Hi, I'm Cynthia Erivo, and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network, visit vpm.fm to discover more.

[0:13] Speaker 2: There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. I'm the one good night. I'm the one good night. I welcome to

[0:30] Speaker 3: the wrong cat died. The podcast breakdown of the cat. Sasha fee, I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. Most recently, you may have seen her on Broadway as an ensembleist in Mean Girls, or as Karen on the Mean Girls national tour, but she's here today since she was a member of the 2016 Broadway revival of cats covering Bombay arena, Cassandra Demeter, Jenny Andy dots and tanta mile as a swing so John Alan Zach, sir. Thank you for joining me. Thank you for having me. So I'm really excited to talk to you, because I the whole concept of a swing is fascinating for me as someone who can't imagine doing one of the cats, let alone multiple. So I want to know before you you know you, you got the role, how familiar with you? Were you with the show? Like did you had seen the 1998 movie? Had you been in a production any other time in your life? Like, what was your familiarity? I

[1:25] Speaker 4: had seen it once on the west end when I was about six, and my fine my family kind of collectively decided that we didn't like it, and so my family is a big musical theater family. However, we did not watch. We did not know. We did not listen to cats. So I really did, I think I saw, like, maybe one professional theater company do it when I was maybe in middle school or high school. But other than that, I didn't know it at all. And when I got hired into it, I actually had to, like, ask a friend next to me while I was watching the show. Do you please point out Cassandra, because I was supposed to be covering her, and I don't, I didn't know what she looks like.

[2:08] Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think I still could do it. And I've recorded 20 plus episodes. I it's, it's a it is, it's a lot. But so you were six years old, I have argued that I don't think that age should be seeing the show because of the storyline of what happens in the show is very adult. But as a six year old, did you kind of comprehend any of that, or did you just walk out with my family? Didn't like it, so I'm not gonna like it.

[2:35] Speaker 4: Yeah, pretty much that. I mean, I think I would argue also that there are many adults who don't comprehend what's happening in the show either. So you kind of walk out being like skimble shanks. They said his name a lot. I remember his name. That's my favorite character. You know, which kids don't normally get the option of doing? They're like, what was your favorite character? And they can't really remember names because there was, like, too much plot happening, but they're like skimble shakes. They said his name so many times. I like him the best, you know. And they're really able to pick out those cats that they, like my family just did. We didn't appreciate it. My sister tripped a cat in the aisle because she had her legs sticking out, and they fell. So, yeah, so

[3:19] Speaker 3: they were not thrilled either. They were not thrilled. No, it's a very fair point, because when I saw it and again, I saw it as adult, but I remembered Mungo Jerry and rebel teaser, because they also say those names over and over again, over and over again. And I was like, Oh yeah, they steal. And that was like, all I remembered. I was like, it was a cool dance number, and they steal. And it was a catchy song, but I did not pick up the plot completely. I had a I had an aha moment towards the end where I kind of, and I don't think my interpretation of it is correct, but it's I had a way of like, oh, I enter how I'm interpreting the show, and it's kind of what has been the genesis of this. But I'm fascinated that you went as a six year old, and I think you said you went with your own family, and you have sisters, uh huh. So are you the youngest, oldest? What were the other ages?

[4:03] Speaker 4: Yes, I'm the youngest of four, and I believe two of my older sisters were with me. My family was living in London for a little bit of time, so we saw a lot of shows on the West End, and had like a rotating stage, is all I really remember about it. But we saw a lot. I don't really remember much of it because I was six,

[4:21] Speaker 3: did your sisters also have the disdain? Like, I feel like your parents might have just been like, we don't like it, and so you all kind of went along with it because of your age. But did they have did anybody walk away being like, Oh, that was there was something there, part of it I liked,

[4:35] Speaker 4: no my family, including my sisters, especially my sister Randy, is very passionate about her dislike for cats. And as a younger sister, I kind of just like, either like or don't like what my sister is like. You know, I wasn't about to be the one person in the family and be like, but the dancing so cool, they would have been like, No, you don't know anything about musical theater. You're dumb. It's like we listen to the Scarlet Pimpernel and City of Angels. Like, that's what we listen to.

[4:59] Speaker 3: So how did you break the news when you got your role to your family of cat taters, you're about to be on Broadway.

[5:08] Speaker 4: Let me put it this way, my sisters and my family are very, very supportive and have come to see me in everything I do, except it took two of my sisters finally admitted that they should see me in the show only after my parents had come and seen the show with my nieces and my sisters made it just by my last weekend in the show, they kind of refused to come see it until my parents were like, she's singing solos. It's really impressive. You should go. And they're like, Fine, we'll go. And it was my sister. My brother in law refused to see it, so he did not come. He never saw me in cats, and he's seen me in almost everything else as well. I

[5:53] Speaker 3: I don't I understand the level of poking fun at the show, but I've never really understood the hate behind it. Because, I mean, there are parts that you could I could argue I don't like the writing. I think that the story, which is the whole thing I argue, is I don't think it was written correctly, but I didn't hate it. When I walked out, I was mesmerized, I was confused. I was and I again, understood why it's easy to poke fun at, but I've never understood why people actually just like dislike it. Yeah.

[6:24] Speaker 4: Well, my family are also kind of, in their own way, musical theater snobs. They're very involved with community theater in our area, and they like to have strong opinions about musicals. They know unknown musicals, musicals they've done. So there's not a lot of it's a fine musical, whatever. There's like, I don't like this song. This isn't good. We don't like this musical feelings in our household, okay?

[6:52] Speaker 3: And I think that's as the the outsider who just, you know, I didn't go to a lot of Broadway, Indiana, which is where I'm from. It's five shows a year. And my mom as a music teacher, we'd go to see those shows. And I was just like, Oh yeah, that was entertaining. And some were better than others. There's definitely a couple things where I was like, what, what are we watching? Because I don't, I didn't know the history of a lot of them. But then when I moved to New York, I started going to see a lot, and I've very rarely. I think if ever walked out and was like, where's my two and a half hours back? You know, I'm always like, there's something there, like, either a really strong performance or a dance number that was really impressive. So I think I come in with a totally different mindset than your family. But I guess I can understand that if that's the like, that cats is the line. It is on the end of the spectrum of either either love or hate, right?

[7:41] Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah. And I also just think it's not ever a show that my, anybody else in my family would ever do, so there's not a way for them to fall in love with it by doing it, which I think is a lot of, a lot of how a lot of people fall in love with the show is they did it at their theater, or the I played rumble teaser, or I was bomb ballerina inappropriately as a 13 year old, you know what I mean like? And they love it because they learn so much about it. Our family just kind of remains separated, you know, and we tend to hold shows that we've done ourselves as leads, as better shows than others. You know? It's just that community theater, musical theater, family.

[8:22] Speaker 3: What's the North Star from your family? Like, what's the show? Um,

[8:26] Speaker 4: well, my mom's one of my mom's favorite shows is the fantastics. My dad is a big Scarlet Pimpernel Jekyll and Hyde lover. What are some of the other I mean, we love the classics, carousel and I mean, one of my favorite show is probably the Book of Mormon, yeah, yeah.

[8:49] Speaker 3: It's brilliantly written. I think it's hilarious, yep. And again, like I as a fan, have enjoyed some of these things, but, but as the classics and some of these other things I you know, I get why they're amazing, but I've also walked out being like, Oh, that was super interesting. So I think I'm on the other end of the spectrum. Of Your family is what it sounds like, truly

[9:09] Speaker 4: and and you're the normal theater going audience, you know what I mean? That's who we want to come see shows, or people who are not going to be like, I could have played that part better. So I don't like this show because of that, which I have had members of my family say, you know, wow, we just really, really love theater. I

[9:30] Speaker 3: think that's part of is I can't I can't sing, I can't dance, I can't like I know, I'm incapable of doing any of the stuff that I'm watching, which is why it kind of really impresses me. And I think in the other flip of that is that, like, I, you know, when I go to a sporting event, even having played at a higher level, I've played against those players, and I'm like, oh yeah, this is the extreme version of it. But I'm like, the I didn't even do growing up any like, elementary school shows, right? I was in nothing. I. Was, like, I never was in any type of player performance, so I have, like, zero

[10:10] Speaker 3: So let's talk about being a swing. Because I think that that's to me, again, blows my mind, that you are able, especially a show as complex and physical and a lot of different dance tracks and different dance numbers, and you're just constantly moving around the theater as a cat. What was it like learning all the different tracks and being able to kind of perform? Was it five, six different characters? Five different characters? Five? Yeah. And then I do have the follow up question of, like, what did they tell you about those five characters? Because each one has very different personalities. And I'm I know that there was the three words with with your cast, but so you have 15 words. Like, is that how you were taught? Is that like, how does it work? Yeah, well, cats

[10:53] Speaker 4: is my third time being a swing, but it was a very different experience, because being a swing and cats is like knowing five different shows. Yeah, so there's not there with most shows, you learn a number, and you just change where you where your position is, and sometimes what side you do that on. But none of the dances and cats are like that, especially with the revival. You know, you do an eight count here, and then four count here, and another eight count here. But not always two. Two cats are almost never the same, and even when they are the same, like something might be slightly different, because you might run into this set piece, or someone's entering from there, you're partnering with someone different. So I was it was really lucky the way that I replaced in it, because cats was the first show of the shows I've done where they taught me the tracks one at a time. So I learned bomb Valley Arena first, then Cassandra, then Demeter, then tan smile, then Jenny, any dots. So bomb ball arena took me, I rehearsed with some other replacements, and they taught it to us in about four weeks. Now, I will say the hardest part about replacing in a show is you're in rehearsal. I was luckily in rehearsal with three other boys, but like, for girls sections, I didn't have anybody to kind of be like, Okay, this is next. You know, you're just kind of dancing on your own. And I don't know cats very well, so I was struggling on what comes next. And it's a similar issue I had with my first show, Bullets over Broadway, because it was a new show, and if you don't know the show, sometimes you're like, I don't know what comes next. I don't know what this song is. I've never heard this song, you know, which was true with some songs and cats. I was like, what the naming of cats? I think it wasn't until two months into being in the show, I finally was actually saying all the words correctly. You just kind of get thrown on stage. You're like the new thing, insane, you know, you're just kind of like mumbling along, just like in the right spot, hoping for the best, yeah, um. But then, you know, some stuff carries through. So like Cassandra, I learned in like a week and a half, Demeter, I learned in like four or five rehearsals, tanta mile, I was thrown into I learned in a rehearsal and a half, and Jenny Annie dots took me about one rehearsal to learn. Yeah, so once you know the show, and I like to watch the show a ton and ton, it starts to help learning the other tracks. I mean, swinging cats is really just, like, understating a bunch of principles. They're all principles in their own right. But, like, I would know things that Demeter would do, because as bomb, I'd be on stage, and I could look to my right and be like, Oh, Demeter is there? Yeah. I mean, that that's the

[13:37] Speaker 3: part that kind of fascinates me, is that there's those two cats do Macavity together, and it's just like, one day you're on the left and one day you're on the right. And I can't even fathom that. Like being able to kind of keep to that track singing the other half of the song. I mean, like you have to know the whole song.

[13:55] Speaker 4: Yes, it is. It is. Those two definitely pose that special thing where you have to kind of know both parts. And there was one day where, a Sunday night, I was on his bomb, and Madison, another swing, was on Demeter, and just the way the chips fell the next day, on Monday night, she was on for bomb and I was on for Demeter, and we both were kind of like, why did we have to switch like, and then you're kind of going to the other person's spot. I will say the hardest part is that Demeter and bomb are in the Gumby cat trio, and it's three part harmony, and they all start on the same note, but and then you slip into your three part harmony. And so there's definitely were days where I was on his bomb and I'm staring at the girl demeanor and like singing at her, and I'm like, I'm singing the same notes as you, and I'm not supposed to, and I know I'm not supposed to be singing these notes and in the booth and backstage we would practice. I'd be like, I'll do bomb. You do Demeter to our other swings. We're like, great. And then we'll do it again. And we'll be like, let's switch for the night show backstage, practicing. But yeah, that was definitely its own chore in itself.

[14:54] Speaker 3: That's that is, again, amazing and so hard to comprehend as someone who's just watching. From the outside. So what were I don't we don't have to go into all 15 words, but, well, what do you remember? What was like, the part you kind of took away of this is the backstory I need to know from when I'm playing these characters. Yeah, well, definitely

[15:13] Speaker 4: we all we got the three words, and I had note cards, and I would write the three words on the front of the note card. Um, to kind of keep them organized, I had like, stacks of note cards. Red was bomb, Green was Demeter, yellow was tanta mile, you know, whatever. And we were just kind of like, again, there wasn't really a director with me in rehearsal as I was learning the cavity. It was our associate choreographer, Kim Craven, who is literally goddess on Earth. She had the whole show memorized. She's absolutely incredible, and she was just gonna be like, so, yeah, so this section, Demeter, you know, um, you're, you're singing at Grizabella. And, like, Grizabella was, like, involved with Macavity, but, like, she got, but she couldn't get out, and, like, you were like, raped, and you have like, PTSD, so you like, sympathize with her, but also you don't like her, and you don't want to be embarrassed around bomb. And so that's kind of like, what's happening here, just like, what I was given,

[16:12] Speaker 3: yeah. I mean, that's, that's how I've interpreted it. It's just crazy that, that it was just like, so nonchalant, just, oh yeah, by the way,

[16:19] Speaker 4: yeah, yeah. And my joke always, because I, you know, I went I went to school, I got a BFA musical theater, and we're taught all of these things about acting, about the text and the what the author is giving you. And I, I would just walk away from those things, and I'd be like, yes, because that's so supported in these lyrics. I got that on my own. And I was like, Okay, sure.

[16:40] Speaker 3: And that's where, why this podcast still exists, because it was, at first a, let me make my argument, and then now it's just like, wait a second, what? What's the actual understory here? Like, where did this come from? How did the demeanor being an abusive relationship, like I in the three, you know, the movie, and the two times I saw it, I never once walked out and said, Oh, that is what I just witnessed. But then you read all about this, and it's just chaos behind the scenes. And that's, I think the part that I have been most fascinated with is that, like the fact that you're given three words and these backstories and these like relationships and certain actors and in your show are playing off of each other and creating new rumors because they're friends and they are playing the cats, but it's like, well, cats purists don't think they should be friends because they're supposed to hate each other. It's just absolutely wild to me. Yeah,

[17:38] Speaker 4: it is crazy. And definitely, like the original cast really dove into those relationships. And the the difference of being a swing and a replacement is that you just kind of have to slot yourself in on, like, a daily basis, so you can't, you know, the most I ever got to do is we had a couple of injuries and a girl leaving the cast all happen at the same time, and suddenly I was Cassandra for a month, which I was not expecting to happen, when I started to, kind of like, build moments with people, and because you have a certain amount of freedom. I mean, most of the time dancers, we don't get to play one character for an entire show, especially a well defined character, not sometimes it's like, you know, sounds person number four here, and then Villager Number two, you know, um, so it's really exciting. It's really fun to just kind of check that mind state, that set of mind right, to be in that state of mind, and for a whole show, of course, you're going to develop relationships and you know, as actors, when you're studying the show, if you have the freedom, like you're not gonna be close, if you think a person smells bad all the time, or, you know what I mean, if you don't, if you've gotten a fight back, you know, usually you leave that stuff in the wings. But also, like, sometimes that just works it with your best friend joins the caster like swings, when we would be on together, we could have a little bit more fun sometimes, because we've done it in rehearsal together, and we spend a lot of time backstage, whereas when you're off swing with the normal person who's on every night, you have to be aware that you're not the person who does it every night, and you don't want to change their Show. So you have to really just fit into that slot to support the people around you so that the show doesn't change.

[19:27] Speaker 3: Definitely, it definitely makes sense. I wanted so I've covered on the meter in gene dots pretty deeply, but I have not covered Cassandra and tantamount. So what were their three words, and what were you told about? Like, what? What's their like, I don't even know their backstory. I have done, like, very little research. And to your point, I probably could not point them out if you line the cats, well, Cassandra

[19:50] Speaker 4: is all in brown. And sometimes you get if she's in a dark lighting place, you can lose her on stage. And sometimes I'd be like, Where'd Emily go? And they'd be like, Oh, she's in that corner. I'm like, I can't see her. I wish I had my notes with me, because I do not remember, especially with my three main girls, the three I learned first, which was bomb ballerina, Demeter and Cassandra, I kind of just, I'm a very physical actor as being a dancer as well, I chose different standing positions based on what I felt the characters were. So bomb stood a certain way, Demeter stood another way, and Cassandra stood another way. So if I had been bomb at the matinee and I'm Cassandra at the night show, I don't have to go into all this, like, what's my backstory? Who Am I? Like, how does Cassandra stand? Okay, she stands like this. Great. Am I on the right spot? Great. What do I do next? Okay, I go on count four. You know, just normally what's going in through your through your head as a swing. But I did get to do Cassandra for a little while. And to me, Cassandra is a little bit more uppity. She has a pearl collar, which I think is very defining for her character. And she is very slim, and she's, you know, she kind of turns her nose up a little bit at bomb and Demeter, like she would never get involved with the cavity to begin with, ever. And she's obviously very well taken care of. And she is, I feel like, generous was one of bombs words, I don't know, but she's very, she's, you know, that uppity woman who's like, Yes, I acknowledge I'm nice to you, but I'm also better than all of you kind of feeling and tantamount, she has a twin, and honestly, I spent most of my time on just trying to make sure I was doing the same thing as the person next to me. She has 32 lifts in the show. And I was just like, where am I? What hand Am I grabbing? Who am I with? Was mostly what I was thinking about. Who's the twin? Wow, coracle. Pat dress the same, and you're supposed to crawl with the same arm as the same leg as them and move together. And the two people are originals, Corey and Emily really worked. So, I mean, they're like, really, really close friends, and they're with each other. So as a swing, you really got it just like, and even if another swing was on, you're kind of like, okay, we're both, we're both gonna do this now, you know, and they're supposed to be like, they're supposed to, like, kind of be able to tell the future and have, like, magic a little bit, I think, I'm not really sure. So, yeah, so

[22:23] Speaker 3: that is and that's amazing, because I I was trying to figure out how you would go get into the mindset of all these different back stories and the three words each time, and what a smart way to just say this is how I stand and kind of like, that's the persona, and that's the way I'm going to do it, and then focus on the other part. That's, you know, probably the stuff that people notice more than the Oh, does she feel like she was abused? Like, did I get that vibe?

[22:50] Speaker 4: Yeah, usually I'm worried about, what words am I singing? What step am i doing next? What comes next? And then the standing really helped me, because in those moments where I'm like, okay, and I'm like, am I standing in character? And I'd be like, No, you know, okay, get click back into that. And you know also that that resting position would help me. I mean, there was like, I remember one moment I was on as Cassandra, and I'm standing in skimble Shanks, like, holding the thing that moves back and forth. I don't know what it's called, and I just like, thought to myself, and I turned to my friend who was holding the wheel behind me, and I just said, I don't know where I go next. And he looked at me, and I was like, I'll figure it out. I just kept standing there, just thinking, you know, I'm not thinking like, who is Cassandra? How does Cassandra feel about skibble shanks? I'm thinking about like, where do I go next? How do I get there? I know I end here. What happens in the middle is anything a safety concern that I need to be worried about? Am I forgetting a safety concern also? What are the words?

[23:49] Speaker 3: Yeah, it makes it makes so much sense when you think about it from that angle. And again, I've thought about this, this whole musical from only one angle the entire time. And I think that's why, when I'm like, thinking about these things, I'm like, I never even considered any of that, right?

[24:05] Speaker 4: Which is why it's so fun to do it. I mean, it's so much fun. It's so satisfying as a performer, to do cats. Um, there's something I wasn't expecting. So what's

[24:17] Speaker 3: the craziest kind of like, story or memory or something that happened from from your run that

[24:24] Speaker 4: you take away. Oh, gosh. I mean, there's so many crazy things. Again, being a swing is I have so many stories about cats. I also just like, I forget words sometimes, and I've forgotten words many times, and I've just, like, slip into gibberish. And like, one time during my cavity, I was bomb, and I could, and this is the thing, the Demeter bomb thing, I could think of, demeters line, but I couldn't remember bombs line in the verse. And I was like, it's, and it's, it was right before the cavity is not there, and it's supposed. To be like, and when are crimes discovered? But I couldn't think of that. All I could think of was, and when you think he's half asleep, and so I'm alone, you know, spotlight on me, and I just, like, turned my head to my shoulder and just went asleep. The cavity is not that like, as if no one would notice. Know what I was saying, but we've had, you know, there are cut tracks happening. I mean, I think also the hardest thing, the craziest thing about cats is that you can look at somebody on stage and be like, who are who are you? Are you? Is that a sweet Oh, Aaron's on, right? I forgot about that, because the makeup and the costumes look the same no matter who's on. And so then sometimes you look and you're like,

[25:42] Speaker 4: your ankle feeling, you know, like you just would forget about that. And, yeah, it was just, it was a crazy experience, especially to jump in and jump out of, yeah, I don't know. My another favorite story I love to tell is what people don't you know, the show starts with those green eyes, which is terrifying, right? Which is terrifying. But what I don't know if you've heard, but the green eyes are like a mask, but if you actually wear them around your eyes, you can't see anything. So they instruct us to wear it on our like foreheads. So when you think this cat is looking at you, it's like, actually an actor with their forehead pointing at you, kind of just like staring at the ground moving their head in front of you. And also they're connected to these buttons where you control the light, but it's a wire that connects it. And there's banisters everywhere on the upper levels. And so I would be running around, I'd like, turn on my green lights, and I'd turn to move, and I would literally just like, clothes line myself on this banister because I had gotten my wire cut on it, and then you have to, like, figure out and, like, undo it, like, run away because you're cat. You know,

[26:49] Speaker 3: that part haunted me as a starting point of the show, because I was not prepared for it, and I was, again, I was thankfully not on the aisle, because really, really unhappy if turned and had a cat green eyes just pointed at me.

[27:06] Speaker 4: Yeah, it's always, it's, it's an adventure, you know, and it's fun for us, though sometimes, like, I think Christy may have talked about it, but like in the balcony areas on nights when we weren't selling well, or on like, you know, Thursday night or something, you go and you shine your green lights, and it's just like, empty seats. Okay, move next section, next section, next section. Like, find another place. Like,

[27:28] Speaker 3: yes, I mean, it is. It's such a fat and I remember, I think tower said he got punched by a kid. Oh, probably. And I was surprised that that's the first time I've heard that. I thought for sure there would be more

[27:39] Speaker 4: swing. That's not normally people's first reactions. And we don't get, we usually don't get that close to people, or I never did. But it was also like, the amount of cell phones that we, you know, would see out, and then you would, like, hiss at a cell phone, and they're like, oh, take a picture of that. I'm like, No, put your phone away.

[27:57] Speaker 3: That is as very true. I think that whoever I don't know who was beside my row, but got right in the person's face. Yeah, and so thankfully, I think it's startled them that more than anything else, but they're

[28:13] Speaker 4: funny because you think, like, okay, we're instructed to startle people. It's like, it kind of depends on, like, how the actor is feeling that day, if they can really see where they're going, how tired they are, if they really want to scare people, or if someone screamed at them the last show, and they don't want that to happen again, you know? And it's some actors love to do that, and some actors are like, Oh, I hate it when people scream at me, like, I'm not gonna get in their face, you know? It just depends on the person.

[28:37] Speaker 3: That's very true. Okay, I want to do a little bit of a little bit of a rapid fire, which isn't that fast, so don't worry. So you, you played five different cats. But if you, besides those five, which character would you would you love to play,

[28:55] Speaker 4: um, I don't know. I really wanted to play Jenny Annie dots, which is why they added the cover, because I'm a topper. Um, I don't know, Jelly Laura, could be fun, I think.

[29:13] Speaker 4: vocal storytelling, yeah, which is really fun. It's kind of an

[29:16] Speaker 3: interesting backstory, too. There's a lot, honestly, I don't know

[29:20] Speaker 4: it okay. I wasn't. I didn't cover her, so I just wasn't told. I don't know who jelly Loram is still above is. I don't know who electro is. I don't know how both these is by, sorry,

[29:33] Speaker 3: Thief, thief. Okay, I just kept calling him the klepto cats. Okay, favorite and least favorite cat, not actor cat, right?

[29:52] Speaker 4: Oh, this is hard, like my favorite cat is probably. Uh, Mongo, Jerry, I don't know. I also just loved the kid Zach who, who, uh, replaced with me in it, but he was always fun on state. You know what I mean? Like, you'd always turn to Mungo for a good time. And if you were bomb, he would be, like, amazed that you were talking with him. And same with Cassandra. And like, he'd giggle with tanta mile, and he loved Jenny. And you know what? I mean, he always has a good relationship with

[30:24] Speaker 3: everyone. That's a person, that's the person. What about the cat

[30:27] Speaker 4: I know, but that's these, I guess that's fair, um, and then um, especially, yeah, yeah. Man goes like, kind of goofy to um, least favorite cat, I

[30:43] Speaker 4: many No, I don't know, tantamount was just so hard. She was always my least favorite to do.

[31:02] Speaker 3: Can you? Can you? I guess you can, but dislike one of a twin. Like, do you do

[31:07] Speaker 4: very I didn't say, like, one little Jerry. I'm

[31:12] Speaker 3: still sticking with the worst cat is Peter. And I feel bad saying it, because I like, I like Christopher ger, yeah. But just there's, it's that character serves no purpose besides being a body right

[31:24] Speaker 4: in the first, in the first number. I mean, like, I could say my least favorite cat is Grizabella, but I feel like that's, like a given,

[31:31] Speaker 3: well, that's, that's great for about to go. That's my last question. Okay, I got two more, or No, three more favorite song from the I like the opening. That's okay, that's fun, not, not a lot of people have said that,

[31:50] Speaker 4: yeah. I mean, it's fun. It's everyone. Yeah, that or I guess skimble Shanks is fun too.

[32:00] Speaker 3: I when I saw it, it was Mungo Jared, ripple teaser. It's all I had stuck in my head the whole time I left. But the more I've done this, it's Macavity. Yeah, the cavity is good. Such a fun song to and then, you know, like, especially with all the backstory, and then it is a kind of funny one to watch because of that is, like, I've argued that I don't think kids should be at the show so, so when you see the sexual nature of that that like kind of

[32:29] Speaker 4: dance, but always argue Macavity is the song that's there for the dads, for the dads that have been dragged in to see this show with their kids and their wife or their daughters, who really show their girlfriends, and they got right, right? And so the dads get Macavity to feel weirdly about being like, attracted to girls and cat outfits, you know? But it's for the dads.

[32:55] Speaker 3: That's i. So I've actually not heard that, but it makes a ton of sense. But that's just, I actually just I actually just really like the song. I think the song is super fun, even though it's about, you know, the antagonist, but it's, I just think it's a fun song. And so as I've done this more, that's the one I keep going back to. I'm like, that's, that's the one I get stuck in my head most often. Now, okay, if you had to be quarantined with one of the cats, which one would you want to be stuck with?

[33:25] Speaker 4: I feel like, probably like, monkey strap. Because, like, I feel like you would just handle everything. You know, that's a good that's a fair. So if you needed to be done, you'd get it done. And like, honestly, like, probably doesn't get annoyed at people too easily.

[33:41] Speaker 3: That's a good answer. I don't think you've heard anybody kind of rationale that a lot of people, myself included, said misto police,

[33:50] Speaker 3: it's just fun. Fun. That's good. That's a very like,

[33:53] Speaker 4: if, like, you know, someone needs to make dinner tonight, and misophyllies is tired, like monkey strap would make dinner. That was part

[34:00] Speaker 3: of my argument for why I would be almost be okay with bus for Jones, because I feel like he would just order a feast every night. Wouldn't really he'd eat pass out, and then you'd kind of have the space yourself, and he's rich, so you probably have a really nice place. Yeah, very true, very true. Monkeys trap is a great answer. Okay, the last one, and I'll give the back story of this. But I learned from, and I've asked everyone this because it's, I think it's the the coolest and craziest thing about the cats fandom, I've learned is there's a group of fans that have Tumblr accounts where they interact as if they are the cat in other scenarios of real life. And so if you were writing scenes back and forth with other cats. Fans, which cat would you want to write as? Who would you want to embody?

[34:49] Speaker 4: Oh, um, I feel like I'll say, honestly. I would lean towards Cassandra, just because I've been in Cassandra's head the most out of all of them. Um, but I, you know, bomb ballerina is fun. You know, she's more of a set character who could have set opinions. But Cassandra also could be open, like nobody really knows that much about her. So you kind of like do whatever you want? Yeah, you

[35:22] Speaker 3: might have talked me into you said Mungo Jerry, not Rumpel teaser, right? Mongo Jerry, a little fun, kind of quirky, but also the thief. So you could write a little bit of the antagonist, and you could kind of get away with a lot more stuff. Yeah,

[35:34] Speaker 4: I always felt like he, and I don't know if this was just the way that Zach did it, and, like, just even a little too is like he's kind of like the class clown, like, everyone loves him, but he's also like, stop lifting like, maybe, you know what I mean, like, like, but he said he's, like, lovable, you know, he, like, never really gets in trouble, because he always, like, swindles his way out of it by just being like,

[35:54] Speaker 3: cute. Yeah? That's, I mean, that would be, again, that'd be a fun option. I've always said mccavity For that reason. Of it'd be fun to write the villain, yeah, all the scenarios. But now I'm thinking maybe it's Mongo Jerry, because you can kind of still write the same thing, but also have a little bit of fun with it. Yeah, awesome. Okay, now my final question that I've argued at length, and the fact that you said that Grisel might be your least favorite character, gives me hope that you're gonna agree with me, but I've argued that Grizabella should not have been the cat to die at the end, and I have very strong opinions of my one rationale. Why? But I'm curious if you agree with me or and if you do, who do you think should have died? And if you disagree with me, give the Grizabella defense.

[36:40] Speaker 4: See, I think I'm going to disagree with you and say it should be Grizabella.

[36:49] Speaker 4: Because, like, I know it's like an audition to die, essentially, is the whole show. And, you know, like, if we really think about, like, who has the best audition, it's probably skimble Shanks, you know, like they build a train, you know, and he even, like, has a costume change. Or, like, Mr. Police does magic, but like, too young, and like, like Grizabella, just like the girl needs, like, a reset. She really just like we need to, just like she's upsetting everybody else by being who she is. She's upsetting mom and demeanor. She's making everyone frustrated. Deuteronomy is like, beloved. Everyone's like, why? And so it's like, just get her away, just restart, just have her die, but that's

[37:42] Speaker 3: but those contradict each other. It's the best performance, but then the person that we're just tired of, so we're gonna just kind of like, give the give the gold medal here and the prize, because we need to move on and our lives. Really, who's

[37:58] Speaker 4: the who is the best or who like, because I also think that I don't know. To me, I'm kind of like, do these cats, like, know what they're auditioning for? Like, I feel like they don't really know what happens in the heavy side layer. And so the kids are like, that sounds great. It's like, Hey, you guys, we're gonna audition to jump off this cliff. Because after you jump off the cliff, like you're you'll be in heaven. It'll be such a it's such a great place where you get food all the time, and sweets and candy. And kids are like, Yeah, I'll jump off the I want to be the one to jump off the cliff. But Isabella, like, knows what jumping off the cliff means. And so she's like, I do want this. And Deuteronomy is like, yeah, you actually do. You know that's

[38:38] Speaker 3: that's an interesting take on it. I kind of love it,

[38:42] Speaker 4: because if you think about it, like bomb and Demeter aren't really auditioning their storytelling, like their storytelling. Yeah,

[38:49] Speaker 3: I didn't have them as my choice. Team Gus is the biggest out there. There's the for the similar reasons of like worthy understands too, like they understand what jumping off the cliff means. Yeah, got it. I I've looked at this. I've said this so many times. I've looked at this from a singular angle, which is, I saw Leona Lewis, which made me think of The X Factor. And I thought we're gonna vote off of, like, like, an X factor, purely based off of popularity vote. And I don't think Chris Bill wins that. I mean, a little bit of redemption story. You know, they can cut up the little pre song, singing memory, be sure and have it. But I think that they Old Deuteronomy plays Simon Cowell, and he makes his One Direction Fifth Harmony by combining Tugger and mestophils, which to me, are to the show stopping number auditions. Yeah, that would have had a lot of votes, because every mom's gonna vote for Tugger that's watching the that's the odd the target demo of The X Factor. And that's how I walked out of the theater. And I've said this, I firmly believe this, if you would have taken Leona Lewis out of the. Equation. I probably would have never thought about the show from that angle, and I would just walk down be like, Oh, that was interesting. That was fun. But since I saw it and it was like, Oh, they're rewarding this one after everybody, just cat after cat after cat after cat auditioned. I thought it was, I thought I was watching The X Factor live.

[40:16] Speaker 4: Oh, yeah, I don't know. I will still, I feel like it's one of those things where, like, in an attempt to be deeper than a reality show. It's like, because you would all vote for this person, is why it's not this person, and because, you know what? I mean, it's just like the road less traveled, you know, because

[40:43] Speaker 3: very true, very true. But I would, I would argue that not always the best talent wins those shows, and in some cases, especially when you compare it to, like, America's Got Talent, where there are some really great things, but dogs, which is where this gets me. And a little ironic, but dog shows have won that that I'm sitting here watching a magician or a singer being like, this is some skill. And I'm like, Oh, the dog's jumping through a hoop. Like I kind of again. Here's

[41:05] Speaker 4: the thing also about so many of those reality TV shows, is after you like, I don't know if you know about the audition process, but you go through your initial audition, and then you have to tell them your story, and that helps you get farther if you have more of a story, for sure. So you could argue that Grizabella is talented enough and has the best story.

[41:34] Speaker 3: for sure, I think that there is the redemption story there, and I think that she's a finalist. But I don't think the

[41:42] Speaker 4: hard part I have about this argument is that I just don't really think on the surface the show makes any sense. Um, so it's a hard place to art to, like, have my mind changed, or, like, argue for the thing, because it's all kind of like, I guess it kind of seems like this, and also that's my experience with it, of like, not really needing to know the plot, and just being told, like, bomb ballerina feels this way at this moment, and they're like, Okay, and she does it while she's doing the kick. And you're like, great.

[42:12] Speaker 3: I don't think any, I don't think there's an answer to this, which is what I think is the beauty of it is because I don't think there is. I don't think many people have put that kind of thought into it anyways, but I that's part of what I like about it. It's part of what I hate about it, because it's someone who likes sitcoms where it's very cleanly cut, and there's this, you know the it's, you know what's gonna happen, and you know it's gonna be neatly packaged at the end. I did not get that in cats, and I walked out again, having to almost write it myself, because that's the way I could interpret it, and that's where we that's where we are today. I mean, have

[42:47] Speaker 4: you seen that? But have you seen the video of Mamie Paris singing memories? I'll make

[42:55] Speaker 4: holds that, no. And you're like, I mean, she deserves sometimes we would play the game where we're all out of breath kind of at that point, and it's like, Can I hold my breath as long as Mamie holds this phrase? And sometimes it's like, I can't.

[43:09] Speaker 3: And I so you could argue, okay, so Mamie deserves to win.

[43:13] Speaker 4: I do think so, and I saw it with Leo, but I don't really remember. I'm also one of those people that when she starts singing memory at the end of Act One, I was one of those people who were like, is this When this song happens right now? Yeah, wait, why isn't the act over? Even in the show, sometimes I'd be back in the dressing room, I'd be like, what's on the intercom, right? The Act's not over yet? Yeah, you know. But I will say watching the show. I got to watch the show a lot from the front. And without fail, I would get chills every time Mamie sung through that phrase, whereas I don't get chills every time rumple teaser and Mungo Derry do their cartwheels. You know what I mean? Like, it's a different kind of feeling. Okay,

[43:59] Speaker 3: I can get that argument. And Leona Lewis, when she saw it, she was incredible too. So she really belted it out as well. And it was, but it was for me, it was it take the performance to sing her out. I That was the one song I knew going in to see the show. I knew nothing else about it, and I honestly didn't even know that was in it. And then I heard, I'm like, Oh, I know this song. And then I figured out why I know this. I learned this about a week ago because my mom is a piano teacher and the piano tuner that has tuned the piano for years when he tests plays about half of memory. And I heard it the other day while he was tuning the pianos. And I was like, Mom, did you tell him that I have a podcast about cats, or did he just play this, the one song he picks to play. So that's why I knew it, I think, more than anything. But I still as I was trying to figure out, as I was trying to story it myself, like I wanted to write it myself, and I could not figure out any other loose connection to what was happening. And then. As I walked out, I was, like, that was like, the way I wrote, it was the wrong choice, the way I wrote, it was wrong, yeah, but you, you make a compelling point, and maybe makes it impossible to argue against her performance. But, like, I

[45:16] Speaker 3: Gus, I think, has the if you want to do real analysis and make an argument against Grizabella, of like this character is older, has lived a life, is ready to jump off the cliff, like you said, like Gus has the argument from logic. I know my arguments not logical. I'm very aware that my argument is one track mind from from a very unique experience, but I'm sticking with it because that's I interpreted it, and that's I think again, the beauty of the show is everyone can interpret it their own way and differently, and that's why people either love or like your family hate about it, because there isn't there. I your family. If I was with your family and they were like, passionate, I'd be like, passion. I've been like, yeah, there was, like, no plot. I probably would have been right there with him, being like, Okay, well, I can't believe you made me watch this. I mean, like, there's still a piece

[46:07] Speaker 4: of me. And I'll say this honestly, because, you know, I've talked at length about my love for cat and the company and doing it, there is a deep, deep part of me that just will never understand why it was made like, like, why?

[46:34] Speaker 3: I can't I joked of when I saw it the first time. I originally joked about how Andrew lweber pitched it, yeah. And I talked about how it was just, like, comes up with this great idea, makes it X Factor. And she was, like, centered around X Factor again, was like, Oh, it was this. And then it was like, But wait, here's the showstopper. They're all dressed as cats. And it's like, why? That's like, don't worry about it. No one will know, and no one will ask questions. Well,

[47:02] Speaker 4: you've, have you seen that interview with him? Where? Where? He says, like, like, people, like, so, cats. It's about community. It's about this. It's about this. He goes, No, it's about cats. Yeah,

[47:11] Speaker 3: oh, yeah. When he broke down early in the quarantine, about, he did the viewing of it, he watched the 1998 movie, and the whole time he was just, like, telling little backstories. But it's just like, I'm like, You didn't think about any of this stuff,

[47:25] Speaker 4: did you? It's such a thing of its time, because if you you, when you listen to, like, I've been very blessed to work with some old, older Broadway legends, and you hear the stories they say about how life was like on Broadway and in theater. I mean not eating, smoking, doing cocaine on stage. I mean drugs, alcohol, smoking was rampant in the Broadway, you know. And just to think about what Times Square was back in the 80s, early 90s, before, you know, and um, they these people are killing their bodies before physical therapy was really a thing, you know, so, of course, and also like, what about cats makes you think, like leg warmers well, because it was, you know, that time and they were like, leg warmers are what make cats, you know, unitards and leg warmers. And so it is, I think, you know, I'm sure people were on a lot of drugs during a lot of it. And I also think the original movie is just, you know, a master class in 80s jazz, absolutely, you know. And that's and that's what it is. And people, you know, it somehow found all, all of these people who love it. And I think, because it's not really about anything, you can make it about what you want it to be about,

[48:48] Speaker 3: which I did, yeah, and here we are. Which is what makes again, makes it so unique, in my opinion, which is part of why I don't. I wouldn't again. It's not, I wouldn't say it's my favorite show, but it's something I've found fascinating the entire time. And the more every layer I peel back, like I learned something new about it, and it's even weirder. Yeah,

[49:10] Speaker 4: I will say, with my experience, like I was kind of those people who hated cats. I was like, Ah, I hate cats. And like, my audition was one day, and I found out I had it the next day, and I was like, Wow. You know, it was very rapid. And I was like, I guess I have this audition for cats and like, I think I'm gonna get it, you know, but I think now I can't hate it, because I have such a love for my process with it, and for what it takes from us as human beings to do and to create and that it is, you know, as much as the movie is what the movie is, there's something else about being able to start an experience by being scared less in your seat by some light up green eyes. You know what I mean? Like, it's just, it's its own thing, and there's so much that's special about it. And like, even I was forced. Watched the movie during quarantine with my my parents and my best friend, and it was like, I couldn't even watch it objectively, because all I could think about was like, Oh, they changed this section, the movement music over here, and this was this dance break. Okay, that's a different Oh, that one move is the same. And, you know, like, where's Colton? And you know what I mean, just like, it's such a different view of whether enjoying it or not enjoying it anymore. Did

[50:24] Speaker 3: your family hate watch the movie? Like, why would you decide to watch this if they hate it so much they

[50:30] Speaker 4: want it? Well, my best friend kind of pushed it on us, but my parents were curious. And my parents don't hate it as much as I think my sister does, but it was definitely a hate watch,

[50:42] Speaker 3: vindicated with how bad it was received, and a lot of stuff that came after, they're probably like, oh yeah, we were, we were right

[50:50] Speaker 4: about the movie. Um, yeah. I mean, like, I think not even just with hate, but just like, it's that, like, why and what kind of thing that my family just gets from this show. I'm so glad that

[51:04] Speaker 3: you were in it, and you forced them to at least have to experience it, I

[51:08] Speaker 4: know. And they saw it. They All Saw it multiple times, because, again, I'm playing multiple roles. So my parents came and saw it. My parents saw it with my nieces, who loved it, but also they're all watching it to, like, watched Auntie Johnny, like, sing a solo on Broadway for the first time. And, you know, which is really exciting. Like, I always say, if I hadn't gone through my experience with cats, I wouldn't have been able to understudy the three parts I did in, mean, girls, and have succeeded so much at that.

[51:36] Speaker 3: Yeah, it's, I mean, it is a, I feel like it's almost a rite of passage because of how long it's been running, that you I expect someone to be like you did cats at some point in your life? Yeah,

[51:47] Speaker 4: well, I think that's also it's so funny too, because I've never thought I'd be in cats, because I consider myself a tap dancer, but not like a dancer, dancer in the theater world. You know, I'm not a ballerina. I don't have that kind of technique. And so I just never, also, because at least three times in my life I've auditioned for cats, like a regional production or a summer stock production, and I have never, ever made it past the first cut. Wow. And then I called in for Broadway and the only and I even joke now, if I took cats off of my resume and I went and auditioned for it somewhere, I don't know if I would get past the first round, you know. But it was my, my set of skills that was needed at that time. They needed somebody they and I had worked with the associate before. They knew I could learn it. They knew I could sing it, you know? And you just are asked as a performer, as an understudy and a swing especially sometimes you just get asked to do stuff, and it's like, I gotta show up. So, yeah,

[52:51] Speaker 3: such a unique experience. So cool. So tell me about you are teaching now, correct?

[52:59] Speaker 4: Yes, yes, I am teaching. I'm teaching you can book classes or master classes with me through Broadway plus or artists and beyond. I also have an email that you can email me to book master classes, including cats master classes, as well as mean girls dance classes, acting and I also teach tap privates. You can email me at Jonathan saxer booking@gmail.com and you can also find me on Instagram at JK saxer,

[53:30] Speaker 3: amazing. Well, thank you so much for being here, for sharing your stories, for educating me on some parts I didn't know about, which is always super fun. So thank you for taking the time, of

[53:52] Speaker 3: for listening to this episode with John Owen saxer on the wrong cat died the podcast breakdown of the cat's atrophy. To follow along, you can subscribe on Apple podcast, Spotify Stitcher, or anywhere else you listen to podcasts, follow us on Twitter and Instagram, at the wrong cat died. Or check out our website, the wrong cat died.com. You.