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[0:20] Speaker 1: to

[0:30] Speaker 2: the wrong cat died the podcast breakdown of the catastrophe. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. He's been rum tub Tugger in four different productions of cats, including the third and fourth us tours and on Broadway in 1993 so welcome BK Keneally, and thank you for joining me.

[0:50] Speaker 2: I love to I'm really excited to talk to you, because I know you've been in a couple different productions, including the, you know, on Broadway earlier on, not the revival and the original. And I want to talk a little bit about just cats in the 80s, you know, like, what it's like. Because for me, everybody that I've talked to, mostly, or most of people I've talked to, the frame of reference is the 1998 movie that was like part of their childhood, or, you know, or they've part of the revival. But it's a different beast. When there's no social media, there's the internet's not really alive. So tell me about what was, what was cats like at that point in time? Like, is it? Someone called it the Hamilton of, you know, musicals at that point? Well,

[1:31] Speaker 3: yeah, it, it? It was pretty much that we had, you know, it, when you think about Broadway at that point in time, a lot of shows, you didn't even some earlier, like five years earlier, they didn't even have five shows up for best musical or best, you know, some shows close before the Tony Award. So it was in rough shape. And you know, Angelo Weber came in, man and started just doing his thing. And really, the show was huge. I remember, I grew up in Miami, and when, when we were touring Miami, had the theater they they were using the center of Performing Arts down in Miami, topa is what it's called. And we had, we were there for five weeks. It had 4000 seats, eight shows a week, and we sold out in 48 hours. Wow, 4000

[2:37] Speaker 3: It's a huge theater. Oh, yeah, this is where shows make their money on tour, not on Broadway, but yeah, and we were selling out everywhere we went. It was so amazing to see the how popular the show, the show was, and how everybody wanted to see it. And the cool thing about it was, a lot of women wanted to see the show, so they bring their husband to see the show, and the husband's like, oh, gosh, oh man, you know, yeah. And,

[3:11] Speaker 2: and then the cavities, the cavity comes on and they're in, right?

[3:15] Speaker 3: And then you see all these incredible people and bodies and amazing costumes. And people are like, wow, this is, this is crazy. You know, you didn't have to sit through too much in a show like some people. You know, you have to really learn how to go to the theater and be at the theater. And this show brought everybody to the theater. I remember, we played San Antonio, and there's the Majestic Theater in San Antonio, and the owners of the theater put up the last amount of money they had to get cats to come in. We sold that thing out and basically saved the theater. It was going to be a parking lot six months later if this guy couldn't make it happen. And he did, and that, to me, was showed the real power of the cats at that time, yeah, and then the teaser for them always just seeing the eyes with the dancers eyes. That's all you ever saw. You know, everything was like, What is this? What is this? And the music was crazy. It was, you know, all this, I love the show. I was, it was a dream come true to be in the show, especially Tugger. I mean, come on, you know, but people didn't know what the show was about. And, you know, we didn't have, you know, marquees out there, of anything but those eyes, and that was it. And they kept that suspense going, which was, I thought, pretty genius. I mean, we had, you know, 18 wheelers with cats on tour and the two eyes on the back doors. That was it. So that's cool, yeah.

[4:59] Speaker 2: I mean, I think that's. Kind of a fascinating piece of thinking back to the 80s, where there's no social media, there's no it's like, it's just a buzz. And you were the first tour that went to a lot of major cities that left some of these hubs. And so it was, I guess, what was it like every time you got to a new city? Did you know it sold out? It was people are ready to go? Like, is there like, a confused buzz? Or was it like, what was that reaction? Well, I would

[5:22] Speaker 3: it's very interesting, because people wanted to know what the show is about. So they used to send me, and I used to do, I don't know if you, you're too young, but there were these shows called pm magazines. You know, they were the the shows that were on after the news. They were like, inside edition and stuff like that. They were called pm magazines. And you'd go, and they were local shows, and I would talk to, you know, to get interviewed, and some of the reviewers kind of were mad at me, in a sense, it was like, Well, you know, because they they couldn't, it didn't matter what they said. The show was already sold out six months ago, so they really had no, you know, they were all always cool and kind and gave us great reviews. The show was great. You know, it was something that, you know, nobody ever saw. You know, people are crawling around, coming out into the audience and breaking that fourth wall at times. And you know, the opening of the show, the entire cast is looking at one person, you know, scaring people. You know, scary. Yeah, yeah. But it's, it was a show like, no out there, and I don't think people were ready for it, and that was the cool, cool part of it.

[6:35] Speaker 2: So how did you explain it? Like, what was your, I guess you didn't really have to have a sales pitch because you're already sold out. But what was your, what was your kind of like pitch to the crowd of like, hey, come check this out. Because it's definitely, it's hard to explain. I trust me, I'm 40 episodes deep, trying,

[6:49] Speaker 3: yeah, well, boy meets girl. No, just kidding. It's funny, because the the director that I was lucky enough to be directed by David Taylor, and we had David Taylor T Michael Reed and Stanley Lebowski putting the show together. They really took their time with us to say, Okay, this is what the story is about. Think about redemption. Think about, you know, we, we've all done certain things in our life, and, you know, some, some have regrets, some don't. Some, you know, like when I played Tugger, I I knew I was the party guy. I didn't want to go to the heavy side lair. I'm having too much fun. You know, who's, who is, you know, who will it be, right? But the whole story about Grizabella. I remember hearing direction one time, and I think it was David who said, If we if we were humans, Grizabella would be the the woman sitting at the end of the bar.

[8:01] Speaker 3: she's got a cigarette in front of her. She's just kind of, you look at her and you go, Oh, it's not the years, it's the mileage. And when he said that, that just that visual of a Barfly, somebody who very glamorous, very pretty, but just man, made some decisions in her life that really didn't go over. You know what I mean? So people would ostracize her because of those decisions, which makes the show that much more powerful. You know, when everybody turns her back on her literally in the show, yeah? And then, of course, Victoria, the white cat,

[8:40] Speaker 3: she goes, but she's, she's pure, she's it, and she's the one who's going to, you know, make that connection.

[8:50] Speaker 2: So that's, yeah. So what was told to you about Tucker? I mean, obviously fun, and you're not, you don't feel like you're even up for the heavy side later. But I know you got, you were giving him some backstory. What were you told about relationships other cats and about

[9:03] Speaker 3: about him? Well, the cool thing, if you think about it, I was lucky enough when the show first started. I was actually a swing, so I did Tugger monk, grelta, Buster, for Jones, Gus the theater cat and Mungo Jerry. So I did four roles that wide range, yeah, kind of crazy. And then I took over uh Tugger at the the year, because the guy Andy Spangler left the the company. So they gave it to me, which was really cool, but I got to do and see the show, literally, from a lot of different angles, and playing a lot of different cats. You know, once a kitten to the old, you know, old cat to monk and Tugger and

[9:53] Speaker 2: kind of don't like each other, right? You know, a little well,

[9:58] Speaker 3: they say, well. I was told by David and Tom and Stanley was monk and Tugger are old dudes kids, since they're brothers, right? So they're brothers, you could tell like I have his wig, in a sense, yeah, monk has his colors, you know what I mean. And there's that conservative guy monkey strap is very on, say, militaristic, but he's very, you know, order, order, piece of molecules. Let's go. I'm gonna keep everything. I'm gonna control everything. And Tigers like Dude, chill out, man, relax, you know. Let's have some fun. So I used to run on stage at any given time, run around Old Deuteronomy and split just, you know, never pulling focus. Like I wouldn't do it during Gus growl tiger or anything like that. But there were certain times, like during the Jellicle Ball, that I just come out there and screw with somebody and go and leave, you know what it'd be make people go like, what? But that was Tugger man. Let's party. Let's, you know, let's rock on and have some fun. And yet, the serious side of that was protecting old dude around me, especially when my cavity comes out, yeah, you know, now Tugger is the fake Macavity on top of the the I'm dressed as my cavity. I don't my ring on. It's after pirates. I put on the cavities, you know, unitard and mask. So I'm the first fake Macavity as he's coming in disguised as Old Deuteronomy. So unfortunately, I couldn't be out there as tuggered to be part of the protection, you know, which would have been different, yeah,

[11:45] Speaker 2: so tell me about the relationship with Tugger and mistoolies. There's a lot of fan fiction that's that's a little non PG

[12:01] Speaker 3: about the two of them, there you go. Well, I was, I was lucky enough to do with some incredible guys that I do love, you know what I mean? And we're always close. They a lot of Tugger was and I think this comes from Terry Mann and his the way he did it, and though his look was very much Mick Jagger, okay, but then they said it's kind of a How do I how do I say this androgynous Yeah, part of him. And, yeah, you know, could Tugger is a party animal, so let's, let's party Yeah, and, and that was part of the, you know, all show like I got the answers. You know, he finally, Tugger is finally the answer to the show is like, wait, you know, listen to me and don't scoff. I mean, it's the only, when you think about it, there's very few spoken words in the show, and that is it. And that's the time where Tugger is serious, the only one time in the show. And then he gets to, yeah, he gets to, oh, there you go. So yeah, it's, there's a lot, there's, there's a lot there. I mean, it's like so many layers of Yeah, of almost devoted followers, in some ways, with the fans, with the girls and some of the guys and a lot of the they always told the guys, especially the the big boys, the alanzos, the Maccabees or Plato, when he's not my cavity, you want to be him. You want to, but you're not, you know what I mean? So it's, it's jealousy, and then it's, all of a sudden, we get together and we party, you know, within the Jellicle Ball itself, there's the big boys dance that, you know, I lead, but they're behind me. But even in the end of the number, there's, you know, the the the big boys, alanzo, Macavity and Plato, sorry, we, we had a lot of moments that we kind of put in. I sit on them, you know, it's built in the choreography, but it's, you know, I swish them away at one point in time, and then we're, we're having a good time together at another point in time. So it's, it's almost a follower type of deal, like, I'll be the leader, but not like mugger strap, if that makes sense.

[14:53] Speaker 2: There's a little bit of a playful annoyance I do kind of find, just. Fact that there's so many people that have, like, super fans, that have, like, analyzed the relationships and the staging and where everyone is and what that means, and if they're together, or their brother and sister, or their son dad, like, there's just there's so many different productions and variations, and with each one comes minor nuances that there is zero way to map out what would be a cat's family tree. There's people have tried. I've done my attempt at it, but I kind of find it really interesting just to hear even you say, like, look, this is how we had this, but this because of this. This is the nature of this character. And so that's why this kind of comes out, why you see it and why you can interpret it that way, right? Talk to me about the I mean, so you went on the third US tour, and you also on the fourth one, but then you went to Broadway, and you kind of stayed tuggery through the whole thing. What was it like going in between each production?

[15:55] Speaker 3: You could, you know, you have to be respectful of who's in charge. You know, a lot of times somebody who's done the show before will come in and say, well, that's not the way I was told, you know, and that's not fair to the person who's in charge at that point in time. And you they may have something to add that's a little different, and it freshens it up for you to come in to do the show we did when we started. We rehearsed for, I think, almost a month. That's, yeah, the and we only had one person who had done the show before. This was the Gus, and that was Richard Poole. He's fantastic. He's doing well. Was doing phantom before this COVID thing, but he was, he led the way. And never you know. He just was like, Yep, this is this is we, we're going to do it. But we were doing exercises, cat exercises, where we were crawling around, we had to stop and stare at something for like 15 minutes, like a cat would, and just be quiet and stare at an object. And it was, you know, as we're all kind of glancing at each other, kind of laughing, what the hell are we doing? You know, yeah. And then when you go into a company where people didn't do that exercise, you could see there was a difference in how they were a cat. And it was pretty amazing to see that they thought they embodied the cat a certain way, and it wasn't until seeing people who didn't, didn't have the luxury of of those exercises for that long for doing those things, their mannerisms were totally different. They were kind of copying the person they saw, as opposed to what we were doing when you're part of the original company. We were there doing it. You were discovering those little things, yeah, finding it. And then the way you Yeah, and the way you crawled across the set. And, you know, living, living, breathing, you know, sniffing each other, you know, going up to one another, and it takes down that wall. There's no like other people look at you who didn't do that, and go, What are you doing? You know? And there's just a sense of because everybody had to do it, regardless of who you were. The entire company did it. And it didn't matter what cat you were, you had to embody that. And that was, at first we were like, this is this is silly. This is ridiculous. But then when we got on our feet, no pun intended. It was a difference. It made the difference of the show. And then each show has its own personality, each company, I should say, we, when I was brought into the fourth national it was a smaller set, a smaller because we would go the third national had the really big set, and we couldn't we had to be at a place a minimum of two weeks, because it took so long to do the load in. It would have killed the crew. The crew couldn't do it so and it was so popular, we stayed multiple weeks everywhere. Then the fourth national was actually considered a bus and truck. And we would do split weeks that second go up in eight hours. And it was a lot different. It didn't have the rake. It was the tire, was cherry pick. Was more of a lift that would roll out and go straight up and then come down and then go back. So it was, it was almost like a man lift. So when I went into the fourth national they, they were changing over three principles, so three contracts were up. So it was Old Deuteronomy, briza, Bella and Tiger. So they said, you just go into the company. Because. We We want you've done the show. We love what you do. So go there and just go for six months till so we can worry about the other two cats. I was like, great. And David Taylor was still the director at that point in time, so got in the company and remembered the show, which amazed me. But I did so many, you know, performances, but that the dance captain, Chuck Lubeck and I were throwing a football around, just talking about the talking about the show. Poor Kathleen Marshall was the assistant dance captain, and she was, Oh, finally, I'm gonna learn Tigers track. And we really didn't do it. We were playing football most of the time. And she was like, Come on, guys. And we just talked through the show and but, but had a blast, but, and that that company was great too. It's, it's so fun because, especially like when a swing comes on, or an understudy, they go on, they do the show a little differently, which should change your show. If you're into it, you know, if they say something different, or they react a certain way, or, you know, and that's the That, to me, always kept it alive and fun. And, you know, we had the fourth national, I remember we had to, we had the flu going through the company, and more people got sick, to where we had to cut two cats from the show one night. And dance captain Chuck Lubeck, he was doing like, four different guys, all their specialties, because he has to be, yeah, because we had to. We didn't have enough people on stage. Wow. So it was pretty crazy, yeah,

[21:41] Speaker 2: like, two cockroaches instead of a line, Oh, yeah. It was,

[21:45] Speaker 3: it was insane, yeah. But, you know, hey, you do what you do,

[21:49] Speaker 2: yeah? And so then then you go Broadway, yes, right? That's after the fourth national tour.

[21:58] Speaker 2: And you're coming into, you know, it's probably 10 years at this point, running right? Is that around? Yeah, yeah. So where's, what is the like? How much rehearsal time do you get for something like that? Or did very little, just because you, you know the track. So

[22:13] Speaker 3: you work, yeah, you work with the dance captain, and they put you into the show, and then you have, I think I had two rehearsals, maybe with, you know, one, yeah. I mean, I rehearse with the dance cap, yeah, music and, and they just say, well, this is where it is, because that set is so so much part of the theater, you know, you one of the entrances is where the box used to be, you know, Tugger slides down and, yeah, so that was just learning the the ropes, you know, backstage, and where you're entering, and how different this set was, because it was, you know, the whole, I don't, didn't see the revival, but the whole back wall comes down for the pirate ship in the original. So you're riding this wall down. So you're standing on this wall, and it's lowering down as a pirate, you know, and you're riding the wall down. And so

[23:08] Speaker 2: that is, I don't think in the revival, yeah, because I think they cut out growl Tiger. Oh, wow, in the revival, I'm probably, again, the wrong person to be, to be trying to differentiate between the different companies, but I don't think that that's in the revival. But yeah, I mean, so then this is where I want to ask a few questions the fourth the fourth tour is, is it Germany?

[23:34] Speaker 3: No, I did the Humber company. So after Broadway, I went and David was in charge of Hamburg. And he said, Look, I need you to go. They need a Tugger in Hamburg. Can you go do it? And I was like, Yeah, it'll be kind of fun, you know. And they, this is after I left Broadway. And they, when I got there, the company. They do changeovers in the company, so every year they had kind of a changeover if they didn't offer certain people a role. So they brought a guy in, and he just wasn't I didn't know him because he left before I got there. He just wasn't doing it, what they wanted. And I don't know the whole story behind that. So they they brought me in, and they said, Okay, I was doing I had already signed a contract to do another show. So what I had to do is I flew to Germany. He called me like on a Thursday, and I flew Sunday night to Germany. Flew to Germany. I was there for two weeks. Had to come back home, and I did crazy for you here in LA for eight weeks, and then I flew back to Germany to continue rehearsing. And he put in the show, and they gave me, you know, and the show's in German, so you have to do the whole show in German. I.

[24:59] Speaker 2: So brutal. Yeah, I was gonna say this is that I was kind of fascinated, because I've seen, like, there are productions all over the world, obviously, but what, how do you how did you learn you're like, the German? Do you speak German? Like, did you just on the fly?

[25:18] Speaker 3: It's so funny because, yeah, it's, I got two great stories about Germany. First of all, I go there and they say, Okay, you just, just do the show my first rehearsal. They said, We want to see you do the show a number. So use the Tugger in English and we'll do it in German, because that's these. So I said, Okay, which, which was kind of strange. And so now, you know, here I come into the show, and everybody you know give me this look like, you better have the goods, pal. You know what I mean? Because it was a little like, okay, and, you know, I came and just was, you know, I did the show for so long, and it was always so much fun. I mean, it's a dream come true role. I mean, it's, I love it, and the support I got, and the people I met all over the world and the road, it was just fantastic. So I go in there and I do my thing, and this cast just exploded afterwards. They were so like, Dude, you know. So we had a blast. Lifelong friends I still talk to friends. And this was truly an international company, and we had one thing in common. The common denominator was trying to learn the show in German. Now there's, there's a European tour. They had it worse. They did German and English. They would do it different performances would go in different languages. So they would do a German wow and an English performance. And for us, the people who originally wrote cats in German for Hamburg actually did what's called Hawk Deutsch, which is high, high German, which is basically Shakespeare. So we were doing the show with some words in it, and people looking at us like, why are you guys speaking like this? It wasn't conversational German, you know what I mean. And it it was really tough to get the German down to really, and you want to be great at what you're doing, obviously. And I had done the show, so I knew every word in the show being doing multiple characters, you know, every beat of the show, and they would, you would go into a room, you'd sit at a desk and maggot, who was about six, two German and Shivas BK, sataga has to be good. I said, Yes, yes, I will. I promise you, I'll. And we had to speak the entire show to her, and she gave you her blessing to go on. So you would speak the show. You would sit there and Word Perfect the show of what you did. You know, for Tugger, I only have to do what I do. And then you would work with the conductor and then the dance supervisor. So it was brutal. Now, having said that this was truly an international cast, we had a guy from Russia, Hungary, Brits, Aussies. We had a kiwi from New Zealand. He was our dance supervisor.

[28:37] Speaker 2: Any German? What's that? Any Germans? Anybody that spoken like naturally,

[28:43] Speaker 3: not we had, I think they said there were two in the run that were because they just were not into musicals at that point in time. So they, they nurtured the that. But we had, yeah, lots of folks. So I remember coming back to the show, and my mystopheles was from Liverpool, and his father was Scottish, okay? And he thought, like they said, he do you have to and it was like, Dude, I can't, I can't even understand your English, let alone you're German, you know what I mean? And we all had a big dressing room. All the guys were in the dressing room. And I remember had a guy to my left, who is from Kentucky, who is one of my covers, and this misto police Carl to my right. And there were times that I was the interpreter for both of the other guys. I can't understand a word he's saying, probably like, what the voice of God talking about? You know, it was so funny. And we would get on stage, and I remember, I was I couldn't do it. I said, I'm failing. I'm not going to be able to do German. I can't do it. I remember. Walking after one of my lessons, walking backstage, and it's joining the Jellicle Ball, and Carl, most awfully, comes running off one of his sexies, big gas and fucking going busy, and I'm sorry, wow, man, this German is kicking my ass. He goes off. I could do it. Anybody could do it. I was like, Carl, yeah, you're right. What am I? What am I so hung up on you know, so I wound up next day saying, Okay, I do a lot of accents. I've done voiceovers. I do a lot of accents. I'm going to I decided I'm gonna do my German with a German accent. That's what I'll do. So I'm sitting across from Magat, and I start speaking Mr. Mr. Mustafa listing, and I'm spitting on her, and I'm like, Oh, I'm so sorry. And she goes, No, no, so good. Spit. So good. I'm like, beauty. So I leave the person coming in behind me go, how to go? I said, just spit on her. You'll be fine. And I walked out. But yeah, that's when it finally clicked. And,

[31:11] Speaker 3: Some of them, yeah, we had, let's say moonshine. They come so moonshine, the Alan for the coma, COVID Treat ein fin des do not directly heard the Titan van. Look, is the noise? Leben nine? Wow. That's to the moonlight. What's called, not memory, but moonlight. And back to so

[31:37] Speaker 2: does I mean, it's kind of a harsh language. Does, does memory translate? I mean, like, it's such a beautiful song in English, does some of the German kind of language still translate into this kind of same powerful moment that that hits? Oh yeah,

[31:53] Speaker 3: yeah, yeah. The and they, the, the Grizz is, you know, were phenomenal. I mean, they had over there, like, here we do eight shows a week, eight shows a week. Over there, you'd only have to do seven. You got to show off every, every week. And I was like, Okay, well, and then I said I could do eight. It doesn't bother me, you know, it's not a it's not like a misophys or the kittens, who, you know, they have a rough man, you're on your knees. They're crawling there. It's brutal. That show is, you know, so there were they their covers. And every company, the covers were amazing. I mean, these people are, you know, watching folks just to get to do it. And they're, again, their take on something. I had a I had a guy. I basically, when I went to Germany, I was like, This is it. I, you know, I've done the show for 10 years now. I don't think I'm gonna, you know, this is it for me. And this guy over there, and he was from Orange County, and he was my cover, and he was quintessential Tugger man, like, six two, good looking guy, incredible voice. Could really move. And I was like, Dude, you're the new Tugger. I'm gonna pass this baton off to you. He's the nicest guy in the world. And this is my other funny story from cats. He was such a dude. He was like, Oh man, all right, dude, yeah, it's cool. You know, he talked like this and everything. And when I flew back after my eight weeks of doing crazy for you here, I fly back and MA got I'm sitting in the audience with her. I had to watch the show, and I'm sitting with her, and it comes the time where Tugger has his line after my cavity. You know, you ought to ask Mr. Mustafa. He's the original downturn cat. That could be no doubt about that. You know, please listen to me and don't scoff. And in German, I said it before I'd say resulted, Mr. Mustafa's Dean Fauci, darling Gibson, and if you hurt me soon, listen. So I'm sitting there, and this guy's on and he's like, I resulted, Mr. Mustafa, Lee frog, and Gary Gibson is FIFO. And I'm like, look at him, like, going, Oh, he said, sherford, dude. And I turn and poor Margaret has a tear coming down, looking at her as patter. I said, okay, yeah, taco has to be second, yeah, yeah. So it was just crazy. But you know, it was what it was, man. But what a great experience, you know, living in Hamburg and, yeah, from all over the world. It was great, stories, great and they did it differently. I mean, they changed some of the set. They changed some moves. We did things a little differently. And just for me, it was great because it was fresh. You know, it's like, Ooh, a challenge. Tell you, yeah, make it work. And that's

[35:04] Speaker 3: oh, yeah, yeah. Our conductor was from Martin ax. He was from London. And there's part of the they have a vowel. I know you call it a vowel, a sound that we don't make. It's not an English language. And like our funny thing was, ich, liberty, which is, I love you. But there's when people say it, they say ick, because it's ich, ich, Liber. D, like that. And Martin said, there's only one sound, the word huge. If you take that and add it to it, it takes the glottal stops out of it. It takes all these things. And it was so interesting to hear, all of a sudden, again, one of those light bulbs that just go off. And I was like, Dude, this is incredible, you know. And then, you know, you're in a foreign land, so you try to speak their language, you know, I'm not gonna. So we had our guy who played Gus, he was an opera singer, and he was paying so many Deutsche Marks to learn German, and everything German, German, German. And the biggest dis in Germany is when you walk into a bar or a restaurant and you order in German, and they answer you in English. That means you German sucks. So every time he's he was Aussie, Bradley, daily, phenomenal tenor, and he would say, Guys, guys got this, let me order. Okay. I'm like, okay, man, go for it. And he'd order. And every time they if they answered him in English, the whole table would start backing up. And he was just so frustrated. But it was to

[37:02] Speaker 2: see you all going around just, just only saying your conversations and parts from the music. You know, it's like, yeah, you don't know the language, but you know enough because you know the lyrics that you're just hoping you can answer with, like someone's asking about something, Jellicle, and you're good. Yeah, oh

[37:17] Speaker 3: yeah. Man, that and a gross beer, bitter, yeah? Just give me a large beer and I'm good. We're all good. Yeah, that's amazing.

[37:28] Speaker 2: Yeah. I want to do a little rapid fire going into kind of my my final question, which is, you know, the whole thesis of my podcast. But before we do that, let's, let me ask a couple couple quick ones. So first one is, if you weren't Tugger and maybe take out some of the the other characters you covered, which just random character would you what track would you want to do, ignoring? Could you sing it? Or could you do it like you just want to have fun during the show? Which one would be kind of your dream, one to just

[38:00] Speaker 3: try? Yeah, and you know, who wouldn't want to be Grizabella, in the sense of, it's a pivotal moment of the show. Yeah, every time she comes on stage, she stops the show dead in its tracks. And to have such power and just amazing. I got to do it in New York with Lori Beecham and Liz Calloway. So you, I mean, you know, come on, it's a free concert every night with those guys, you know, power that they brought to it. It was stunning. It was just, you know, and I saw lilius White, do it as well. I mean, dude, it's, yeah, that would be the role, you know, if you could sing it and just, well, you know, that would be great.

[38:53] Speaker 3: Um, actually, my favorite melody of the show is Old Deuteronomy. Old Deuteronomy. Yeah, I just love, I just think it's such a beautiful piece, especially in the Jellicle Ball when he comes up on the stage. And it's just sweeping and glorious. I don't know it's for me. It's, you know, that's one of my favorites, you know. Yeah, awesome.

[39:17] Speaker 2: What about favorite character and least favorite character?

[39:28] Speaker 3: yeah, oh, wow. It's so hard. I don't I, that is a great question. Least favorite, oh, I don't know, man, I it's we, i Wow, I'd have to say, I mean, just because he's the bad guy, mccavity, you know? And then when I played monkey strap, the guy I did the show with was actually my roommate for for a while, Dave Roberts, and he used to call me mini strap when I went on, because I was smaller. And he used to throw me like. Dude, we did Lee's lifts. He just hurl me across the stage. So I'm going to say that one because, but it's a great role. Oh my gosh, he was so fantastic. What about favorite Tugger? Tugger? Yeah, and, you know, I don't know if you know who Bill Nolte is. Bill Nolte was a an Old Deuteronomy, and I remember he came into the company. He was with the first national. He came in to catch three. And I never rehearsed with him. We never, you know. And He came in and he sang the moments of happiness at, you know, atop act two, and oh my gosh, when he sang that song, I just it was, you could hear a pin drop. It was so glorious and beautiful. I was like, Wow, just wow, you know, because he didn't try to sing it like an opera guy, didn't you? It just flowed out of him. It was amazing. Amazing. That's, those

[41:07] Speaker 2: are the types of things I wish, you know. I maybe they are out there. But what there's is there copies of that, like being able to see some of these, like individual performances or songs, because there's just not a lot of reference past the 1998 movie and then, which is mostly what's on YouTube and a little bit of the more recent stuff because of just stuff being recorded or unfortunately bootlegged in some capacity. All right, so final, the final question, or the million dollar question, we can cover a couple other things, but I have argued that I do not think Grizabella was the right cat to die at the end of the show. I've covered why, all my reasons why. But I want to hear, do you agree with me? And if so, who would you pick? And if not, what's the what's the defense for Grizabella? Interesting.

[41:54] Speaker 3: There you go. I always thought that it would be Gus. But if you didn't see Gus in the revival, doesn't make sense.

[42:05] Speaker 2: Oh, Gus. Oh, yeah, no, Gus is the most common answer. You would think he

[42:09] Speaker 3: would go. And then it was funny, because somebody said, Old Deuteronomy. Can he go? Old Deuteronomy isn't going to leave because monk and Tugger haven't figured it out yet.

[42:28] Speaker 3: And you know, Tugger, you need to be a little more serious monk. You need to lighten up between them. That's all Deuteronomy. It really is his time to go. He's not, yeah, but he can't give it up yet because, you know, looney tune, right? And, you know, militaristic left, you know, on his left, I mean, but it was, you know, I again having dear friends playing the role when you can antagonize someone that you love. It's awesome. You know, Randy Clements was one, and, you know, Frank, he was great, you know, and I would just go out there and, man, just poke at him. Just keep poking the bear.

[43:11] Speaker 2: The most like entertaining fun, probably the most improv allowed character in this show, and it's got to just be a blast to do every night,

[43:21] Speaker 3: oh god, oh yeah, yeah, yep, yeah. Because, like I said, and seeing it, which is great to do monk and Tugger, because the polar opposites. So when I sit looking at my buds doing monk, I see, oh yeah. So let me take mine a little further, but then when I would go on for monkey strap, I would have to be I knew that I had to lay down the law and, you know. And the funny thing is, he said, Monk could never laugh at himself, you know, that's why the peaks and the polls are just it get when it gets out of control and everybody's pushing his buttons, he loses his crap, you know. And it's brutal, because that song is so brutal to sing and do, and just the lyrics and how fast it goes. And if you started too fast to the conductor when, you know, has dinner plans, you're screwed. You know what I mean. And I remember one night Randy went up on his lines, and it was the pigs and the pelicans came out of his mouth, which was genius. So much fun. We never let him, and he was making nonsense sense and just talking so fast, because, you know, people going, what? Excuse me, yeah, can you talk into Can you talk into my sponge head. I don't think I got that, you know. So, you know. And then Mungo Jerry and rumble teas are the two who come out and do the bark, bark, bark, bark, in the beginning. So now there I am. Is Mungo Jerry pushing his buttons as a kitten, being a goofball, you know? So it was, it was great to be. To do that, I would, you know, it helped me as an actor to look at my role from a different perspective, which was great. You know,

[45:09] Speaker 2: before we go, tell me a little bit about we did, and I was fortunate to play a small part, helping out with promoting it a little bit. But there was the the fundraiser you did back in October of 2020. Tell me a little bit about your cast kind of coming back

[45:23] Speaker 3: together. Well, I'll try to make it fast, because I know we're running, probably running out of time, but we had an amazing company. Jonathan Cirillo was our skimble Shanks, and he was fantastic. He we had a, you know, AIDS was taking a lot of our friends at that point in time. You're talking the 80s. I was going to a funeral a week when I got, when we got off the road, it was, it was brutal. We lost some members of our company. I lost dear friends from other shows from the early 80s, and we just wanted to help any way we could. And being cats, we were the biggest thing. We had a voice, so we utilized that voice, and on Mondays, we would do fundraisers. So if we were in a sit down for two weeks, we would find a local AIDS hospice or a local AIDS organization. And our publicist, Jim Kerber, he was great. He set these up for us as well. And they used to take me, and like I said earlier, I'd fly to the new cities, and if we had an event coming up, we would, that's when I would promote that event as well. So it was fantastic. We got an opportunity to raise money because and it gave us a chance to do something other than the show. So we all performed. We did just fundraisers almost every Monday. And there were some times I remember Kansas City. We were a year into the run of the show. It was september of 1987 and we did a tribute, because we lost Michael Bennett, and then we lost Tom Reed. Sorry, I he actually brought me into the company from a dead chorus line with Tom. So He means the world to me. He gave me this big break. So we did a Michael Bennet benefit in Kansas City for local hospice, and by the time we finished with the show, was all Michael Bennet shows. This benefit performance. We had people weeping, screaming, standing, and as we left, we went out, we had our chorus line hats we did, and then with one from chorus line, and people were emptying their pockets and throwing whatever change money into these hats, and we raised more money in one night than this Kansas City organization raised in a year. Wow, it was, and it was only, I think it was $46,000 or whatever what it was, but it was insane. We cabarets bars, we would auction off tour jackets. And when I did the fourth national, we did the same thing in the fourth national. We picked it up and kept going, and we did skits. We did who's on first, Alan Costello, Chuck Lubeck and Daniel Marcus did it, and it was absolutely hysterical. And people, oh my gosh, we did greater tuna. My wig master and our skimble Shanks were did greater tuna. I don't know if you know that show. Oh yeah, it's hysterical. So we did skits, we did all this stuff, but it was really just to raise money. So Jonathan calls us 30 some odd years later and says, Hey, let's get together and do this. And it was just amazing because it was it brings back all those emotions, obviously, but it also is a way to give back, and then by, by bringing the show up again, you you relive what we did, and you know again, the memory lives again. It does, you know. And as corny as it sounds, we I saw people I haven't seen in years, and now we're parents and some grandparents, and this, it's just wild. But again, this company was so giving, and it wasn't about ego. It was all about let's go out there and have some fun, sing a song, and hang out at a bar with a bunch of people who want to see cats. You know, without makeup on, and hear them sing other songs, and just to meet the cast, you know, it was, it was a great, great thing to do, but at the same time, utilizing the popularity of that show for, uh, even greater good, you know, and we always had, Nina LAN worked for really useful at that point in time, and wound up starting her own company. She was the general manager of the show, and her blessing, man, we, you know, we, she was like, go, go, you know. And let us utilize interviews that we were doing, that I wasn't the only one. Everybody was doing them, but to promote these. And it was, it was just everybody giving, and the crew and the orchestra, the orchestra played. I mean, we're, you know, all of a sudden, you go out to a club and you have an 11 piece orchestra just jamming, and these guys play in jazz and doing, you know, what they do, you know, outside of cats, it was amazing. It was, you know, people again, got to see that. But working that, that magic again, for again, a greater good. And we raised a ton of money, and then just doing this last thing with the pandemic, knowing that, you know, we can do it again. And because the show was the Hamilton of its time, it still has legs to where the reaction from people and to see and hear our stories and to watch all these folks trying to hit these high notes again. You know, it's, it's brutal, man, it was. But it was great to see everybody, and just knowing that everybody was like, Yeah, of course, you know. And the hard work that they did, the people who put it together, Austin, Jonathan, Joanne Hunter, Brian Ronan, who mixed the show for us. I mean, that poor guy, he had, you know, we just had J Alger. We put the the music down and had a click track to where you would hear the intro and then you would sing. So all Brian got while he's mixing the show were just our voices, no music, and he had these 34 people, and he had to mix these 34 voices, and the only thing we had was, click, click, click, click, click, that he could start, and he makes it, and it came out. Great. Yeah, it sounded great. I was like, Oh my gosh. So he's, he's a magician. And then Jay Alger, Eddie Robinson, I mean, all these people came together and again, selfless company. It was such a great and we were all so young, and we didn't know how what we were a part of at the point in time, Jonathan and I have had many conversations about this, going, who were we and how, and I got to see it from the outside, because being a swing, I was in the house every night watching the show, because you had to track all these cats. It's not like 42nd street. The chorus comes out. They dance together, and they either guy over here or guy over there, man with every crash and the cats scatter, you know, okay, bomb bees going in front of you. You gotta wait for Gus to go over here, then you fly between them, and here's your exit. Many sleepless nights, but seeing being out in the house, standing next to the sound board and listening to people, and seeing the reaction for this show and seeing people we played Elmira, New York, a little theater, and I remember people lining up because we had to the showers, but it was a theater that was in disarray. And I we said, yes, it's perfect. We'll do it. So we would leave and shower, basically at home, you clean up and then go back to the hotel. And we had a bus, and the bus was sitting there, and I remember us leaving this theater, and there were people in, oh gosh, I don't sound but there were women in, like, ball gowns, and men in suits and like leisure suits, and you know, they were dressed to the nines for this show, and standing there, and the looks on their faces as we left that power that this show had, and it was like they lined up from the stage door to the bus on either side of this pathway. And it was amazing. And knowing that tapping into that amazing quality that this show has. And I love the show. I People say, Oh, it's corny. It says, I love the music. You know, I had the album. Hello, you know that waxing that goes around the ground, yeah, okay, I had the album. Because in that album, finally, I saw pictures of the show. But I. I love, love, love the show, and the power of the show and the fact that we could turn around and raise money to help people to unfortunately die with dignity in the 80s, and now, if we could do our little part to help people keep their insurance just in case they get sick. I mean, this is it's huge. And I, again, am very fortunate to be a part of this company who I love dearly, and to know that, you know, we use our powers for good, you know, and to reconnect with these people and see these people. It just it in this pandemic that was like therapy, it gave me that sense of who I was when I was in my 20s doing this show. You know, we were all kids. We were all 20. We had 17 year olds. I think the oldest person in our company may have been 30, wow, you know, yeah, and we were all kids, and we didn't know, we just went out and did it well, what? Just do it okay, you know? And that's, it's a tribute to David Taylor T Michael Reed and Stanley and Lebowski that it never got bigger than us. And it was always about this show, and they gave us such great direction. And, you know, Stanley would, we'd be in rehearsals, and Stanley would have his eyes closed. He was the musical musical director. And I remember looking at him, we were getting a cup of tea or something, and I said, Stanley, you have your eyes closed. He goes, Oh yeah. He goes, because I have to listen to the show. I can't watch these amazing women dancing and all you people flipping my eyes will lie to me. Yeah, he used to close his eyes and listen to the show and stop. It's B flat. You're I said, I always be flat. No, but he would just pick a voice out and say, Come over here. Play that note. Play that that you're singing this wrong note. So everybody, it was that intense, but that joyous as well. You know, everybody was scared to death of him, but they really made this the tightest show. And when, you know, every night standing ovation, screaming, people just screaming, yeah, it's amazing. It's an amazing vehicle, and it brought so many people of theater which just paved the way for Les Mis after us. They broke our records. Then Phantom, they broke your Les Mis records. I mean, it, it was. It is such an important part of musical theater history, because more, like I said, in the very beginning, more people came to this show who would never normally go to a show. Yeah, you know, these women were dragging their husbands to the show, and they're, you know, I remember we talked earlier about baseball and football. I remember going playoff games, I'd be standing out there, and you could see, this is in cats four, when people had phones or little tablets. You see this blue glow, and the lights went out, these guys were watching poop or whatever. So. But then we got a man. These guys were standing, they were screaming, they were, you know, and again, it paved the way to go see other shows, because it was like, Oh, wow. Theater's fun, yeah. And that show made theater fun. It made you think about things and and, like you say, the wrong cat died. Many people feel that way, you know, who, who do you relate to? Yeah,

[58:45] Speaker 2: and then, and there's, there's so many, so many characters, so many different ways to interpret it, so many ways to see it. I mean, I argue that I don't think kids should go, but then you see that if you take out the back stories, it's like from a kid's eyes. It's also kind of a mesmerizing show. So it isn't, I mean, there's a reason. It's still around 40 plus years later and still going and, and probably will be for another 40, yeah, which is, which is kind of cool to see, and, and I enjoy it, but I loved hearing now, I'm like, dying to see the show in German.

[59:20] Speaker 3: There's some out there, I think there's some stuff on YouTube, yeah. But it is, yeah, it, but again, it transcends to any language. It. It is a journey. Yeah,

[59:32] Speaker 2: it's like dancing, dancing. So even if you don't understand a word of it, that's kind of how I felt when I saw it the first time. If, even if you're not following the story or anything, it's still kind of mesmerizing to watch, and that's entertaining.

[59:44] Speaker 3: It's too and and you know, hearing some of the back stories from now that Jillian Lynn has passed, people were posting on social media about Jillian and stuff they said to her, and. If they, they did what she you know, this parts for the Jellicle Ball. It's nine and a half minutes of pure dancing. You know, I mean, the big boys have a section. The kittens have a section. The women, you know, ladies, Latin lady that the Jellicle that we all each section had a name so you could when you're rehearsing, that's you knew what we were, where we weren't doing certain parts. But when you hear the stories of what she did, and trying to tell the story and how she saw it, and it was, it's just so much fun, and it brings when you have a purpose to do a step, because you know where it comes from. You know, there are certain steps where you're wiggling your butt. And she called it dirty bottoms or nasty bottoms. You know, it was great, but you know why you're doing it at that given time, you know? And to watch these, I mean, I came from Florida after doing chorus line with Tom Reed, and he said, I need you to come up here and audition for cats. And I was like, Oh my gosh. So I actually closed the show on Sunday, flew on Monday, and had my audition on Tuesday. It was like the gods were in my favor. And when I got there, they really I could not imagine what I was in for. I walked into a stage, and I've never auditioned with 200 other guys, wow. And they said they saw, like, 3000 people for this company, yeah, everyone. And then everybody wanted to do it, yeah? And dude, the people that I saw dancing, I was like, oh, oh, I Yeah, taxi, get me out of here. These guys were phenomenal. And the voices and and to be one of 32 in the original company of this tour was a godsend, I mean, and there were so many talented people and the see the cast we had were so good, and it was just amazing. And there was more. When they put our company together, Jimmy walls, who was our dance captain, was telling us they actually put the company together for the people. We were also not just the talent that we had, you know. And there were amazing people in the company and and to encapsulate, to bring this all to a close, these amazing people gave their time for this benefit then, you know, and now, yeah, and they're just great people.

[62:38] Speaker 2: And I'll include the link in the description. So, you know, there's still an opportunity to donate and still a chance to get back. So if you can, please, please do that. And

[62:48] Speaker 3: like I say when I was doing my post, is, look, any amount is the perfect amount. You know, you don't have to nobody, we're all up against the wall here. So you don't have to try to save the world. You know, we all know that five bucks goes a long way when it has to. So it doesn't have to be a million dollars. So whatever anybody could give is perfect. Yeah. Well. BK,

[63:13] Speaker 2: thank you so much for coming on and enlightening me about the German production and sharing all these stories. It was it's been amazing to have you on Thank

[63:23] Speaker 3: you, my friend. Yeah, nice to meet you. And hopefully I'll come east and we'll go watch a Nick's pacers game, exactly

[63:31] Speaker 2: for all the people listening to this. I have no idea we're talking about. I love it. Yes, we will find some sporting event to attend, hopefully soon. So thanks everyone else for listening to this episode. The wrong cat died. The podcast breakdown, the cast, Ash. Fee to follow along. You can subscribe on Apple podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, or anywhere else you listen to podcasts, follow us on Twitter and Instagram at the wrong cat died and check out our website. The wrong cat died.com. You