This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Mike Abrams: There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. And the wrong one died. And the wrong one died.

[0:17] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of The Cast Atrophy. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. You may know her as the host of the fellow Broadway Podcast Network show, The Dramatists Guild Presents Talkback. She's also an award-winning playwright and actress, but she's here today to discuss Cats because she was Sillabub on the third US National Tour. So welcome, Christine Toy Johnson, and thank you for joining me.

[0:42] Christine Toy Johnson: Thanks for having me.

[0:44] Mike Abrams: I am excited. I always love anytime I can talk to somebody else from the Broadway Podcast Network that knows Cats because I really thought for a long time I was the only person that talked about it. I think, yeah, there's not a big Cats podcast market. I think I'm the sole person there right now. There was a couple that have popped up and have faded away. So I'm carrying the Jellicle torch. So I want to start, I always love, I mean, my first question usually is to everyone who's asking their first experience and love of the show. And I've talked a lot to the 2016 Revival cast in the most recent US tour and superfans who generally saw the 1998 movie in school or something like that. But your tour predates some of this.

So I always love hearing what was that first, what was the interaction to becoming part of that cast, this kind of infamous tour? And what was just your take on the show at that time when it was so a little bit new, so unique, and the first time it's really going nationwide for people to see?

[1:49] Christine Toy Johnson: Yeah, it was really a very exciting thing to be a part of. Because as you said, it was the first company that really was traveling around the country. The first national tour did some longer sit downs in, I think, Boston, Chicago, DC. The second national was actually the Los Angeles company. So they sat in Los Angeles. And then there was us. And so the whole process from auditioning, to being hired, and then going into the rehearsal process. And then opening, we opened, actually in West Point. And I remember this really clearly, because our very first audience was made up of all the cadets from West Point. So it was a sea of people in white uniforms. And then we didn't know how they would respond, because who knows, and they stood up at the end and cheered. And it was really, it was really, really exciting.

[2:52] Mike Abrams: That is crazy.

[2:54] Christine Toy Johnson: Yeah, isn't that cool? And then every city we went to was seeing the show for the first time. So we were sold out everywhere. The audiences were just so excited to be there and clamoring for the show. I remember the first stop, I think, after West Point was Atlanta. And we were in a cab, a couple of my castmates and I were in a cab from the hotel to the theater. And so I think we said, we're going to the theater where Cats is playing. And the cab driver insisted that we were wrong about the title. He insisted that it was really called Those Darn Cats. And we said, no, no, the show is called Cats. He said, no, no, no, I'm sure of it. It's Those Darn Cats.

[3:43] Mike Abrams: Okay.

[3:43] Christine Toy Johnson: Those Darn Cats.

[3:45] Mike Abrams: Please take us to the theater where Those Darn Cats is playing.

[3:50] Christine Toy Johnson: I love anybody who's just adamant that when they're wrong, especially like, no, trust me, what do you know in the show? I'm positive. So walk me through what, like, before you get this role, what was the buzz around, like, even the audition? Like, was it because like, again, it's still kind of new, like, a lot you knew about it?

[4:11] Christine Toy Johnson: I had seen it. I am one of those people who I think you've talked to before who said, I believe it was more fun to do than to see. So I was not, admittedly, a big fan of the show when I saw it.

[4:27] Mike Abrams: Okay, now let's talk about that now. Forget my question. Tell me about your first experience. Tell me about what you did not enjoy.

[4:34] Christine Toy Johnson: I, you know, I just thought it was so weird. And I didn't understand what was happening. I didn't really understand the story. On the other hand, it was certainly fascinating to look at, you know, there were just, you just never saw anything like that before on Broadway. And, and I want to say also that I grew up in the suburbs of New York City. So I, I was lucky enough to have Broadway as sort of my local theater. So I saw a lot of shows. And this one was just, you know, I, it really was astounding in so many ways. But I have to say, I think because I couldn't follow the story. It wasn't until we were in rehearsal, and we were told what the story was, that I went, Oh, okay. So Macavity kidnaps Demeter. And, okay, and then the kittens and then Grizabella and the tire. Okay, now I understand.

[5:37] Mike Abrams: So what was your, give me the your story. From when you saw it the first time before you were told, what did you walk out? Like, how did you interpret the first?

[5:47] Christine Toy Johnson: No, I have no idea. A lot of cats singing and dancing. Some were, I guess, I don't know, they had yogurt things on their heads. I see now, that version is a little different from the revival. You know, they had, they cut that. Do you know what I'm talking about with the yogurts on the head? See, that's from Peaks and Pollicles, which was cut from the revival. But we had to wear these hats that were like yogurt. What do you call it? Yogurt containers? Yogurt container. Yeah, because you know, all of the stuff that we the cats would use was trash, right? So the version I saw has had like shoeboxes on. Yes, there were those two, but we had some yogurt heads. And then I just so yeah, I didn't. I didn't know what was going on.

[6:46] Mike Abrams: So you saw the story, didn't understand it, struggled through kind of following it, which is I think a lot of people who see it. But now you're in the show, and you get told a story. What were you told? How would you explain now as the expert who has been explained the story? How would you explain to somebody who was, you know, going to go see the next tour or the next Cassie when it comes back out on some capacity?

[7:04] Christine Toy Johnson: I would say it's the story about a tribe of cats that is deciding which one is going to transcend the, I don't know, transcend our world and go to their equivalent of heaven, which is the Heaviside Layer. And so the task of the tribe is to choose which cat will go on to her next life.

[7:49] Mike Abrams: And how are they choosing? I mean, that's a very overarching theme.

[7:56] Christine Toy Johnson: It is, right? I don't remember, actually, that.

[8:00] Mike Abrams: Okay. Okay.

[8:01] Christine Toy Johnson: Because when I started thinking about this, talking to you, I did feel like I couldn't come up with why we would choose. I know this is not the question yet, and we'll probably come to it like much later. But why we did choose Grizabella, I'm not sure.

[8:18] Mike Abrams: It's the million dollar question. And I have a lot of episodes explaining why I don't agree with that decision.

[8:23] Christine Toy Johnson: Yes, I know.

[8:25] Mike Abrams: We will get there. We will get there. I would love to hear a little bit about the reaction. I know you sold out. I know you were in opera theaters. You were in theaters that were huge. What was the reaction to those darn cats?

[8:36] Christine Toy Johnson: It was like being in a rock show, really. People loved it. People loved it. Even the longer version, which had the Peaks and Pollicles still in it, and it had also this very lengthy opera section that was cut from the revival, as well, that turned into Growl Tiger. So, his character is usually called Gus Growl Tiger. And Jelly Lorem becomes Griddlebone, and the Siamese cats come out, and they sing this huge, it's a very elaborate number, with the boat and all that.

[9:14] Mike Abrams: And then that actually made it into the newer movie that there is a Growl Tiger, Griddlebone boat scene.

[9:21] Christine Toy Johnson: Oh, okay. I haven't seen it.

[9:25] Mike Abrams: Oh yeah. You're not missing much. But that came out of nowhere. And I feel like, again, I have done enough research on this show now. I've not seen that, because my whole knowledge is 2016, the two times I saw it, and the 1998 movie, which I don't also believe it's in.

[9:42] Christine Toy Johnson: Oh, wait a minute. No, it should be in the 98 movie.

[9:45] Mike Abrams: Is it in the 98 movie?

[9:46] Christine Toy Johnson: Yeah.

[9:47] Mike Abrams: Okay.

[9:47] Christine Toy Johnson: I have seen that.

[9:49] Mike Abrams: Okay. On VHS.

[9:51] Christine Toy Johnson: Yes. It was on Broadway HD, or On Demand, or something like that. And it was one of the quarantine things we watched. Also, as we were getting ready to work on this benefit we did, I had to relearn, you know, Jellicle songs. Who remembers Jellicle songs?

[10:09] Mike Abrams: You remember all the audio?

[10:12] Christine Toy Johnson: Yeah.

[10:14] Mike Abrams: So I do want to pivot a little bit, because I want to talk about Sillabub. I have yet, I mean, I recorded episodes on them. I don't want to call them the main characters. I call them the song characters, where I really broke down everyone who either had a song or had some significant, like, big, big, big part of this. As I've learned more, as I've had these interviews and these conversations with cast members, I think I undervalued Sillabub, how much role Sillabub plays. Because she doesn't have just, like, a song song, but she does play a huge part in a bunch of other stuff. But because I haven't done as much of this back research on her, I don't have as many, like, random cat theories or all kinds of stuff. So I'm wondering what you were told about Sillabub. Like, what is her backstory to the Jellicle tribe?

[11:06] Christine Toy Johnson: I don't believe I was told a backstory, but I'll tell you what my feeling is about her.

[11:10] Mike Abrams: I was going to say, what's your made up? You had to come up with your own backstory, though, or some version.

[11:14] Christine Toy Johnson: Don't forget, don't forget, she sings Memory with Grizabella. So I always think that she really represents the hopeful innocence and, and the curiosity that, that kittens have. As it not not as opposed to but sort of as opposed to Grizabella, who is, who is leaning more into her, her past and her pain in her life. So I feel like Sillabub is, well, first of all, in our production, probably because I was so close to Joanne Hunter, who played Victoria, we were, we were two of the really fun kittens who enjoyed hanging out. And Joanne, I don't know if she told you the story. She probably didn't tell you the story. But she used to hide candy all over the set. And so we were

[12:14] Christine Toy Johnson: Certain times, especially during the Stoffleys, where we'd be hanging out by the car hood and we'd go into the little exhaust pipe and pick out a little gumdrop or something like that as a treat. So, my experience was that Sillabub and Victoria were pals and we hung out together and we just had a lot of fun and were very curious and innocent and happy to be cats in the junkyard.

[12:43] Mike Abrams: Do you think that that would be your sister then? Or do you think it was just a best friend?

[12:47] Christine Toy Johnson: I think she was my best friend. Okay. Yeah. Because there's a lot of the rumor around Sillabub as the kitten is that there's a lot of question marks on who's the parents. Yeah. And so I'm curious if you have an opinion. I think the most common is that it actually is potentially Grizabella because that's where you sing with her. Or that that is not your role model, per se, because I don't think Grizabella is necessarily a role model, but also a little bit of the... Being the first cat to touch Grizabella in that moment, that is the thought of where it could be mom.

[13:27] Mike Abrams: I never thought of that. Honestly, honestly, I don't think we went into as deep a dive as we would normally in the dissection of backstory and et cetera. That's what I'm trying to figure this out. This is the whole thing I've become interested in is just understanding what cats are doing outside the show.

[13:52] Christine Toy Johnson: That's fascinating. I will tell you that I was listening to your interview with Michael Kushner and he was talking about Quackso and those cats have also a whole other life. And I was thinking about Plato, the cat Plato. And in our version, this is just something we made up, the actor David Roberts who played Macavity in Plato. He did those both roles. During the curtain call, when there's like a free for all, we're just jamming out and doing whatever. He's a great tumbler. He taught me how to do a cartwheel over the run, over the year and a half that we did the show together. Maybe Plato was involved in parenting Sillabub. I don't know. I've never thought about that. If we didn't have a rumor, we're starting a rumor.

[15:00] Mike Abrams: Yeah, let's start it. That Plato could be Sillabub's father. I'm just going to add this. Basically, the way that this Wikipedia page from what I've seen is that most of these rumor mills are started because someone added it for some other thing. Right now, I'm going to add this and this is going to be the source. Plato is now the father of Sillabub potentially in one cast. Yeah. Anything's possible. That's verified. That's how this all works. I'm confident that this is the way the entire Cats family tree and all of these rumors are started.

[15:41] Christine Toy Johnson: I really think a lot of the relationships you see, I think there's a lot that's very thoughtful of Trevor Nunn. The twins clearly have... I think I never picked up on that and now I'm fascinated by that. But they have very, very much so. It's like they react first. It's like there's very clear things that they need to be together. They do those things. The rest, I firmly believe are these two are in a different show on Broadway together and are very good friends. Whether their cats are supposed to be together or not, they're going to play off each other. Now there's this rumor that maybe those two are together or brother or sister or this. It's like, no, it's just like those two are friends. Those two are friends off stage and that's what happened.

[16:32] Mike Abrams: Yeah, that's what happened. I have to say, I'm a little ashamed to admit that I never thought of who her parents were because as a playwright and an actor, I pride myself in doing a lot of deep thinking about characters. I'm really sad to admit that I never thought about her parents. What other characters did you have thoughts on their backstory? Whether they're like what were told to you or just like...

[16:59] Christine Toy Johnson: Demeter, for sure. Demeter and Macavity.

[17:03] Mike Abrams: Abusive relationship.

[17:04] Christine Toy Johnson: Abusive relationship. That's how the whole play starts with her darting around, I think, trying to avoid him. Then of course, he has that whole section with the Rumpus Cat. Do you know that part? Was that still in 2016?

[17:28] Mike Abrams: Maybe. I don't remember if that was in the 2016, to be honest, but I also was mesmerized in 2016 and none of this. There could have been a lot of stuff to happen that I'm just like, I don't remember a single thing because I've learned the show as I've recorded these episodes a lot more than I ever picked up the three times I've seen it.

[17:46] Christine Toy Johnson: Well, I think that that's part of it, that there's so much up for interpretation. And so you can just let your imagination go wild and think about all of the things that are in the backstories.

[18:04] Mike Abrams: Do you think anybody that were watching your tour, like any of the cadets, were sitting there going like, those two, definitely mom and dad.

[18:12] Christine Toy Johnson: I doubt it. I doubt it. Look, I have great respect for the longevity of the show and how it there's the music is fantastic and how innovative it was, especially at the time that it began, because people weren't the costumes and the set design and the lighting and all of the magic that really happened was very innovative. And perhaps that's why we didn't spend so much time on the dramaturgical elements that we're now discussing. But just to learn the whole thing was that was a lot. And then to do justice to the choreography and entertain the people with it.

[19:01] Mike Abrams: And what I've learned over time with your cast is it's not just that you learned the cast choreography, but because of the benefits you were doing at the time, you were learning all kinds of other stuff.

[19:08] Christine Toy Johnson: Yeah. I took a six month period off in the middle of the tour. So I was not in the benefit that Jonathan and Joanne talked about where they did the chorus line. They learned a lot of the stuff from a chorus line. But I did do other benefits where I think I was mostly singing. Somebody sent us a recording of a benefit we had done, I think in Cincinnati in the end. No, Boston, maybe. So towards the very end of the tour, and they had a recording of it that that's quite good, and sent us all of the songs. And it was pretty amazing to listen to it.

[19:55] Mike Abrams: An audio recording?

[19:57] Christine Toy Johnson: An audio recording of each song. And also very, very, very sad to hear the voices of so many people that we lost in that time.

[20:11] Mike Abrams: Yeah. So I actually would love to hear a little bit about the benefit that you did last year in 2020. I know you were very involved, both helping to write it and then also you saying part of the memory that you that you redid. Tell me about how that came together and your involvement with it.

[20:28] Christine Toy Johnson: Well, in the summer, actually in the spring, so early in the pandemic, we still have a we have a Facebook group still that we keep in touch with with each other in and Austin Juton, who was the original standby for Old Dude, said, Hey, you know, I think we should get together and do something for all of our, our colleagues who are really suffering from having lost their jobs during the shutdown. And, and how can we help? What can we do? And so he approached Jonathan Cerullo, who was Kimball Shanks, and who is has become a director and a producer and Joanne Hunter, who has become a Broadway choreographer. And, you know, so we people just came together and said, Yes, of course, what can we do to and Jonathan's idea, of course, was to approach Broadway cares and the Actors Fund. And so that's how it all sort of started.

[21:29] Christine Toy Johnson: And because Joanne has worked with Andrew Lloyd Webber on on School of Rock, and upcoming his upcoming production of Cinderella, she was able to get get us into into talk with really useful and make sure we had the permission to do everything because we wanted to do everything right. You know, we wanted to make sure we had all the permission to do things. So then we talked to people at Broadway cares and at the Actors Fund to make sure that that they were on board. And then we got it, we got a date that we could release the whole program. And Jonathan and Joanne, and I think also Jimmy Walsky, who had been our dance captain, and Austin, I think they were in on the beginning meetings to, to, to kind of conceptualize what it should be. And it turned into a half hour long program, where we not only I think we had 34 of us involved from from the original touring cast to include and including any replacements that everyone was was invited to participate.

[22:49] Christine Toy Johnson: And Joanne, Joanne happens to be also married to Brian Ronan, of course, Tony award winning sound designer who was on our show as well in this, I think, in the second year. And so he helped us with the sound mixing, because you know, you can't everyone, everyone who has done this over the last year will understand to try to record singing. And with a lot of people is very difficult. So you know, you remotely, so we each had to record our sound and, and then videotape ourselves. And like I recorded the sound separately, so it would sound better, you know, than just singing into my iPhone. And we also did my husband's a photographer and filmmaker. So we also went outside and we had different locations.

And we, you know, we did the whole thing. But so they had asked me to, to write a script based on the concepts they already had come up with. So that was, that was a very fun assignment to do. And then when we talked about including memory, it just made sense to have not only the Grizabella section, but to have Sillabub also to represent, like I was talking about before the, the hopeful sentiments of the song.

[24:10] Mike Abrams: Yeah. And you know, it came together beautifully, which I think,

[24:28] Mike Abrams: That was that's amazing. I want to rapid fire a couple things of fun questions and then we're gonna we gotta talk about Grizabella. Okay. So first one would be if you could play any character in the show, forget male, female, anything, you know, whether you can sing it, dance it, who would you want to play? You know, I always wanted to play Jelly Lorem slash Griddlebone. Because of the that whole well, because I think she's so warm and Joanna Beck who played in our company was so beautiful, but it's really warm and also got to sing the soprano diva parts and I I'm a soprano and I always I always wish I had gotten to play that part. What about your favorite and least favorite character?

[28:04] Christine Toy Johnson: Well, Victoria is probably my favorite character. But again, probably because she's my pal. Yeah, and we had a really good time and we ate candy together, you know, when we shouldn't have been. I mean, Victoria might be in your cast might be my favorite character if they're hiding candy around the stage. Yeah, exactly. My least favorite character probably would be Macavity just because he terrorized everyone.

[28:30] Mike Abrams: So I love it. Yeah, your choices are very much into the plot, which is good. For as much as you clearly didn't like that first one, it resonated like you didn't pick up that Macavity is the protagonist. And yeah, and you know, as much I have to say this, as much as I was not a fan of the show when I saw it, I loved doing it. It was awesome. And it was a it was great to be in this company that was getting to share the show with people for the first time. And we had a very close company and it was it was fun. So I had a great experience doing it. Did you see the 2016 revival? Like, have you seen it since?

[29:08] Christine Toy Johnson: Not that many times. We were invited to the closing night on Broadway, whatever year that was, you probably know. In the revival? No, the original. Oh, the original. No, I don't. I should, but I don't. Yeah, you should, Mike. So we were all invited to the last performance and also big blowout party on Chelsea Piers, which was amazing. It was an amazing with fireworks and all kinds of things. So I saw then and then I thought I'm a Tony voter. So I saw the the 2016 revival. And it's really interesting because, you know, some of the choreography was still intact from Gillian Lins or inspired by it. And I felt I could feel my body doing some of the some of the music. I feel my body doing, you know, starting to raise my arms and it's really interesting.

[30:15] Mike Abrams: I'm surprised you didn't start singing.

[30:18] Christine Toy Johnson: No, that would be annoying.

[30:21] Mike Abrams: That's I've been to shows where that's not been the case.

[30:24] Christine Toy Johnson: I know. I know.

[30:26] Mike Abrams: Okay, my favorite song.

[30:31] Christine Toy Johnson: So, you know, I speaking of like feeling that that visceral response to the music, this probably is going to be a weird response, but I love the Jellicle Ball.

[30:44] Mike Abrams: The Jellicle Ball? I don't think there's that many people that said that as an answer.

[30:48] Christine Toy Johnson: It's just because it was it was a bear to dance because it's like, I don't know, felt like it was 17 minutes long. I don't know if really it was that long. But so it's very, very long and rigorous and required every ounce of stamina you could muster. But there's something about it that I just love dancing and like the music just really came into my into my body and my soul. And just, you know, it was fantastic. It was really fun to do.

[31:19] Mike Abrams: That's I it's it's an interesting number because it is this like very beautiful and amazing thing to watch. And then I learned that it's basically an orgy.

[31:33] Christine Toy Johnson: Well, no, I was never told that.

[31:36] Mike Abrams: So that is that seems to be a consensus. So maybe that's a more recent interpretation of it.

[31:42] Christine Toy Johnson: I have a feeling we were a little more innocent about the way we looked at the show back.

[31:47] Mike Abrams: A little different, a little different in the 80s and still kind of new. Now there's a jaded version. There's people that love it or hate it. And so everyone's got a version now for for others saying it.

[31:57] Christine Toy Johnson: My last rapid fire question before we talk about Grizabella, and I'm super interested with this because this is like, I think your wheelhouse. But there is a group of fans who have a Tumblr accounts where they actually interact writing as characters. And so they basically just interact with each other. So I'm writing as one of the cat. You're writing as another cat. And we're in whatever situation we're in as a writer. Which cat would you want to write for? Like, which cat would you say? This is a storyline I want to I want to figure out, right? This is the character that I could do a lot with.

[32:34] Christine Toy Johnson: I would have to say Cillabub because you know it. Well, because you but you pointed out that I don't really know it. Now you got to figure you got to fill in the blanks. Figure it out. Yeah, I would want to figure that out. Also, I, I am a self described pathological optimist. And, and I think that I would enjoy writing the hopeful side of Cillabub's thoughts and inspirations, that kind of thing.

[33:10] Mike Abrams: That's fun. I took the total opposite route. I thought, let's write Macavity. Let's just be the villain. Because that's not my personality type. And it'd be fun to kind of write something totally different.

[33:22] Christine Toy Johnson: Sure, yeah.

[33:24] Mike Abrams: Okay, time for the million dollar question. I have argued for episodes that I don't think Grizabella is the right evangelical choice. And so I'm curious, with your thoughts on this, if you agree or disagree. And if you're going to defend her, I'd love to hear your defense. And if you're going to say somebody else, I'd love to hear why somebody else.

[33:45] Christine Toy Johnson: Well, I actually probably have both the...

[33:50] Mike Abrams: Oh, that's no, okay, I'll let you tell me both sides. But I want to hear which one you would choose if you had to vote. I would love to hear both arguments.

[33:57] Christine Toy Johnson: Well, I have great compassion for Grizabella. And I think because I got to sing with her, so I have that compassion for her. I do feel like she was very closed off to us. And so I wonder why she was chosen. Because she wasn't really a part of the tribe as much as, say, Gus, the theater cat. He was so dear and struggling with a lot of things. So I also have compassion for Gus. And so in thinking about this question, because I knew it was coming, I do feel like probably I would choose Gus because he was part of our community. And he told his story to us. But on the other hand, who knows? There's so many things that we don't know about people. We don't know about their history. And so I would be loathe to turn my back on Grizabella, knowing that she had so much hardship in her life. I mean, look at her clothes. She's been through a lot.

[35:16] Mike Abrams: That is fair. I think that it's fair to say we don't know the full story. I like to fill in the blanks, though. I like the idea of there's some of the beauty in there. We know a few things. But it's very clear by the rumor mill, we don't know a lot of things. And that is, I think, part of my biggest reason why I don't pick her, is because from what I do know, I struggle to see how that would make her the choice. So I know there's stuff missing. I know there's some blanks we need to fill in, which is, I think, clear. I have a guess at what happens when she left the tribe and when she's coming back. And I think that it's probably a darker version now. I think now I'm starting to rethink all of my thoughts.

If you're saying that it's the more recent group of people that have this dark version of the show, it was more family and wholesome in the earlier runs. But from what I read, and from what I interpreted and kind of looked, is that she went off and did some things that aren't appropriate, or weren't great, or weren't very well. And she's coming back beat up and ready to kind of try to hopefully rejoin the tribe. I don't have a problem with her being the choice. I think you can make the argument of redemption. I think where I actually really struggled the first time I saw it is...

[36:43] Christine Toy Johnson: She just comes back and immediately is rewarded.

[36:47] Mike Abrams: Whereas I think she's probably the leading candidate for next year.

[36:53] Christine Toy Johnson: Mm-hmm. Okay, that's fair. But that's actually not at all how I turned. I walked out. This is as I've thought about it more. I walked out and I watched it with like a singing competition. And so I just purely it was like, oh, which show, which cat gave me the best performances? And it wasn't her. I mean, it was great, her memories. I mean, amazing. Like there's no doubt that it's fun to watch someone belt that, but I'm like, yeah, you know, if America's voting, if I'm voting at home on my phone like everyone else, uh, you know, an American Idol, X Factor type of thing, like I'm probably voting for Tugger or I'm voting for Mr. Mistoffelees or somebody else where I was like Mungo Jerry, Rumpelteazer, where I was like mesmerized and like really blown away by.

[37:32] Mike Abrams: Let me ask you this though. So, but they all of the cats that you just mentioned seem to be pretty much in their prime.

[37:40] Christine Toy Johnson: Yeah, so would you really want them to then go off into the Heaviside Layer?

[37:44] Mike Abrams: I think it depends on what you think happens with the Heaviside Layer if it's a reward for being the best.

[37:51] Christine Toy Johnson: Again, and I know my interpretation is wrong. I like the answer should be Gus. That's the most common thought, but when I watched it, I thought I was watching those darn cats X Factor. And I was very, very, very confused and I was like, oh, yeah. Me and when you watch an X Factor, some of these other shows, they have all ages. They have kids to adults to like very senior and it's not, you know, there's all kinds of pieces to that. So I thought everyone's eligible and they're, you know, instead of winning a show and a million dollars in Vegas showing a million dollars, it's you get to get killed. And I was like, this is, it's already a weird show, but that was how I interpreted it. So that's why I know my, my, that's the premise I've kind of taken.

But if you really do look at it, I do think the part that I struggle with with Grizabella is that to be rewarded right away after being gone for so many years and then being coming back and being immediately selected seems off to me.

[39:01] Mike Abrams: Okay, that's my hot take.

[39:03] Christine Toy Johnson: Yeah, I had not, well, I didn't know this other piece of information that you've uncovered. So, I don't know. I have to think about that some more now.

[39:10] Mike Abrams: Yeah, there's, there's, I mean, there's a lot of arguments. I've heard a couple creative ones that I love. I get the redemption story. I mean, there's no doubt that some very, very talented historic people worked on this play and came up with the story and plot. And so who am I to judge except for to have some fun poking fun at it? But I, you know, I would, I would like to write a different ending.

[39:38] Mike Abrams: Well, I think that's sort of the beauty of theater, right? That you've, you were talking about this show that's been around for literally decades and it sparked a lot of imagination and that's a pretty amazing thing. It doesn't happen all the time. It is an incredibly polarizing show. It has a lot of very passionate fans. It has some weird hate to it.

[40:01] Christine Toy Johnson: Yeah, and it has a lot of confusion.

[40:07] Mike Abrams: Yes, yes, but it is almost universally loved.

[40:13] Christine Toy Johnson: Yes, that's what is, I mean, it's kind of crazy. I mean, my entire, this whole thing is, you know, has spun off from one joke that was made in passing that has turned into it to this. But my knowledge, like I, this was a show that when it came back, I was just like, well, I never saw it, you know, I didn't know much about it. I was like, I knew I needed to see it, even as just a casual Broadway fan. And so that's how I ended up there. And then I, yeah, I was very confused and a little too sober to see it the first time and needed more to more belief. But it is such an open-ended world that there's been built and it gives you the ability to kind of play in it in a lot of different ways.

[41:00] Christine Toy Johnson: Yeah, and really the poetry of T.S. Eliot, you know, that's, that's really something fascinating to look at too. If you just pick it apart, but you know, by the great music and the poetry and then what they did to make it into what they did, yeah, it's pretty interesting to think about.

[41:19] Mike Abrams: Absolutely, totally, totally agree. What else? I'd love to hear what else you're working on. I know you've got, I mean, we talked a little bit about the podcast. I mean, I know you've got a lot of things in the work. So tell me what is kind of on your plate right now.

[41:28] Christine Toy Johnson: Well, yeah, it's, um, it's been an incredible year. Actually, I've been on the first national slash North America tour of Come From Away for 18 months before the coronavirus so rudely made us stop. And so eventually, eventually we will go back on the road. And so I will, we'll do that some more and that's been an amazing experience in the same way that Cats was in some ways in that we are seeing cities are seeing the show for the first time when we visit. That's been incredible. I've had the really good fortune of going back to work in on TV the last couple of months since the safety protocols have been really developed. And so I've had a chance to guest star in a couple of on Bowl where I'm a recurring judge and NCIS New Orleans.

So that, that was fantastic. And then I'm, you know, I'm right, I'm a writer. So I'm, I'm writing all kinds of, I'm doing a commission writing a new musical with Jason Ma, one of my collaborators for Village Theatre. I've been doing a lot of that. Collaborators for Village Theatre outside of Seattle. I just wrote a short piece for Ars Nova that will be part of their programming in April and a lot of different writing projects that are in various stages of development. And at the Dramatist Guild, I'm part of the elected leadership of the Dramatist Guild and chair of their diversity equity inclusion committee. So we're doing a lot of work with town halls to talk about these expanded conversations that are happening surrounding access and inclusion, etc.

[43:07] Mike Abrams: Yeah, and I mean, well now you've got to write Sillabub's story. So you got another writing project on your plate. Tell me, tell me a little bit about Talkback because I've, you know, I'm very familiar with it and I think it's just such an incredibly powerful podcast with really, you know, incredible topics. And so I love for people to kind of know a little bit more about it.

[43:28] Christine Toy Johnson: So when while I was on the road, I would take some opportunities to talk with Dramatist Guild members in places where I could meet up with a regional rep and we could organize something. So I did these conversations that are surrounded diversity equity inclusion issues, questions people had, things people wanted to talk about in LA, Seattle, Salt Lake, and San Francisco. And what I came away with was that a lot of people had similar questions and concerns. And so I came back to the committee that I chair and I said, I have this idea for how we might be able to disseminate information, people's other people's experiences with how they've navigated these issues. What if we do a podcast and I talked to different people across the industry about topics like cultural appropriation versus appreciation, writing outside your lived experience, etc. And that turned into the podcast that we have that we're so happy to be on Broadway Podcast Network's part of their family.

And we've done two seasons. The first season we did the regular way in studios with, you know, be in a room with each other. Also, I was on the road, so they would get me space in a studio and wherever, sit way, wherever was like Chicago and Cleveland and all these places and we could talk to each other but in studios. And then of course this season in the summer, we all did from our quote-unquote home studios with our, you know, now we have all the equipment that we need except for actual booths and, you know, engineers in our homes. But so we, there are two seasons. The first one focuses on diversity equity inclusion issues. The second one focuses on access. So that means a lot of different things and we're looking forward to recording our third season hopefully this summer.

[45:39] Mike Abrams: Amazing. Yeah, I've always loved being part of the Broadway Podcast Network. I think what I love is the wide range of content that is, is that the network's giving a home to and has given voices to. And so it's kind of fun to be with my show being what it is to have like to be part of a network that also has these like very thoughtful conversations and like very important topics while I'm sitting here arguing why Grizabella was the wrong cat.

[46:12] Christine Toy Johnson: I want to say that the conversation started out as being very Dramatist-centric, you know, really talking to writers and then as we've expanded our, we've been talking to industry people from across the boards and it's been great to have inquiries to spark more conversations about access and inclusion.

[46:38] Mike Abrams: That's amazing. Final, probably most important question.

[46:40] Christine Toy Johnson: Oh, okay.

[46:41] Mike Abrams: How do we stay in touch, social media, website, like stay in touch with you?

[46:47] Christine Toy Johnson: Thank you. So my website is my name. So it's www.christinetoyjohnson.com and then on Twitter and Instagram, I'm at C Toy J, C T O Y J.

[47:03] Mike Abrams: Easy, easy enough.

[47:06] Christine Toy Johnson: Yeah.

[47:07] Mike Abrams: Well, thank you so much for joining me, for being here, for humoring me through all this, for telling me about those darn cats. I think that's the only way I'm gonna refer to it from here on out.

[47:18] Christine Toy Johnson: Yeah, I love it. I hope the guy who the driver in Atlanta's listening is like, oh, they're still wrong. It's still those darn cats. Thank you so much for doing this. I think it's wonderful to be able to have a light-hearted conversation about something and also, you know, for better or worse, it reminds us that the power of theater is really, it's really something else and it really transcends all kinds of time periods and theories and preferences for which cat, you know, you'd rather see go on the tire into the...

[48:01] Mike Abrams: I didn't explain it to somebody one time. I said, yeah, a bunch of cats singing and one of them murders, but that's a good thing. So don't worry, like that's how we break it down. So there's a place for everything. I'm glad I've carved out this very niche region of the podcast land to discuss. I'm sure there's nobody else doing this. I don't think there's anybody else that is arguing on behalf of every other cat. That's what I'm here for. That's what the beauty of the podcast world is. Everybody can with a mic and have a voice.

[48:37] Christine Toy Johnson: Well, thank you again.

[48:39] Mike Abrams: And thanks everyone else for listening to this episode of The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of the Cats atrophy. To follow along, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or anywhere else you listen to podcasts. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram at The Wrong Cat Died or check out our website, thewrongcatdied.com.