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[0:00] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ariana Grande. Hi, I'm Cynthia Erivo, and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network, visit vpm.fm to discover more. There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there.

[0:20] Speaker 2: to

[0:30] Speaker 3: the wrong cat died the podcast breakdown the cat's atrophy. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. She was Grizabella in the original Broadway production of Cats. So welcome Peggy Stallings, and thank you for joining.

[0:41] Speaker 4: Thank you. I'm really excited to be here and talk about everything kept I

[0:47] Speaker 3: loved. I mean, for everyone who got to see the live show that we did was was great, but I don't think we got to really dig into a lot of stuff. So this is what today is about. So let's, let's start with you have been in, I know multiple productions of cats, yes, and so let's start with a little bit of just your cat's history. You started on the third national tour before you went on to Broadway. So tell me a little bit about your evolution of being in cats. Well, my

[1:15] Speaker 4: evolution, I have a really unique relationship with it, because if you go way back before I even got into the show, a friend of mine was in London in 1981 or 1982 and he lived in Los Angeles, and he sent me a cassette tape of the of the of the show. I still have it. I can't play it, but I still have it. And he wrote a note in there and said, I saw this most fantastic show. I've never seen anything like it. It's cats, and I think you'd be a great Grizabella. So of course, I was like, oh, okay, because I love Andrew Lloyd Webber and Jesus Christ Superstar is, like, my favorite of all of his works. I have a special connection to that because it was the first album I bought with my own money. So I would it was on my radar, and I was curious about it, and so I was lucky enough to have a very good relationship with the casting director Andy zorman of Johnson lift, and zorman, who were the casting directors for all the British shows, and I auditioned and auditioned and auditioned, and he called me and he said, we'd like to put you into the second national, which is closing in Boston, as the understudy, so you can learn The part, so we can cast you, because they really wanted me to do the role that they had to wait for it to open up. I'm like, Yes, I will go to Boston. I will learn this part. And I done David in Boston, and I done Zorba in Boston at the Schubert. So I couldn't wait to go back and see all the people there, because I knew them. And it was like, it was this exciting time. And I learned they taught me the show there, I learned that the Trevor Nunn version, we talked about that a little bit before, but they're not that there's different versions, but that the catch three, when I went into catch three, when they called and I was doing, I think I was doing Jacques brella is alive and well, living in Paris and Virginia. And Andy zerman called me, so what are you doing right now? And I said, I'm doing Jacques REL is alive and well, living in Paris, in Virginia. And he said, Oh, well, he wants you to go into the third company in March. You're going to be done. I said, Yes. So I went into the tour as Gucci Bella. And that the person who was overseeing that production was David Taylor. So the show, because it was a, it was a wasn't a first national. It was a smaller production. Was the same staging and everything, but it wasn't as gigantic as the first national, second national. And so there were some, some differences, a little bit of differences. And I think that's where a lot of people have different ideas of back stories. And we get into all that fun stuff about who is Grizabella and who is tumble Brutus and who is Victoria, and what's really going on. And so then I did that, and I did that, and then I went into the Broadway company, so, and then I had the opportunity being in the Broadway company. I work with Trevor and Jillian and Andrew. So it was really exciting time for me.

[4:33] Speaker 3: I absolutely love that your introduction to the show, because I asked this question a lot, especially with the like 2016 revival, or some of the newer tours where they were on, they were introduced to the 1998 movie. And, you know, I've asked some of the national third tour, there wasn't, no, there wasn't a 1998 movie, because it had, you know, this happened before 1998 and so. Well, I love that your first introduction was a cassette tape mail to you that is not something I have heard. That is a really fun way to kind of be, like, brought to the show, and knowing that, like, that's something that I could do, and almost you got, you got to experience it in a different way, because you got to experience only the music of it first before you actually got to see it and be in it. That's a really kind of unique piece. Well,

[5:23] Speaker 4: that's how I experienced, like, that's how they did that. But they did Jesus Christ Superstar was a concept album before they they did it on stage at vita. I did a Vita played Eva Peron in the national the Vita. And the same thing with the Vita, it was, it was a concept album before they actually staged it. So I'm kind of used to doing that with Andrew led Webber stuff. So it was kind of natural to me. But I think I thought that it was like, so neat to get that cassette tape and it, it was like, What is this? And yeah, so it's unique. And then I got to hear it, and then I thought, oh, yeah, I have to sing that song. I have to. So that's

[6:04] Speaker 3: incredible. I and I just love that. I'm sure there's people listening to this who can't fathom, you know, a non social media world, or a world where there's not some version of the video and audio together to watch. So let's go though to your Broadway. You now get in your on Broadway, and you're, you're performing as Grizabella. I would love to hear a little bit about what it was like learning from, you know, from from Trevor and Julian and Andrew lweber about this, this production, and particularly about Grizabella. Well,

[6:37] Speaker 4: the I have to say, to give you know, kudos to the people that I worked on, on the tour, with the tours, with that they they also this was coming a lot it was coming from Trevor and Julian and Julie Weber. So a lot of the initial, initial, I guess, introduction to the show and to the role was similar, or exactly what the original creators wanted. I think for me, which was fun, was when the original they would come back and they'd work with us. And what I loved about Jillian Lynn is that she understood, because it was such a physical show that you think that you're doing it, you think you're kicking your leg up at your ear, and you're not, because you've been doing it over and over and over and over again. So she would come in and kind of change things up a little bit like she because she could, because it was her choreography, and she would change it up. And instead of reaching on five, I would reach on like three to make it fresh and new. With that was really a gift. And she also would just kind of change some things. And I remember at one point it was a year, because we just had the Olympics, right? And it was an Olympic year, and she decided to add some more tumbling in it, because she said, darlings, that's what the audience wants to see. Don't you think it's a it's an Olympic year, let's do that, shall we? You know? So it was just wonderful to watch, for me to watch her create and the same. But with Trevor Nunn does not speak loudly. He's very quiet, and he's very conversational, and he'll say, let's have a go at it, shall we? And it's very easy and just simple. So some of the things that he had taught me were things like, when Isabella walks into initial walking into her remark, it's as if he said she wants just to come in and just kind of be there and not necessarily draw any attention to herself, but what does happen is that she walks in, and they sense her. And so it says, If everybody's at a party and they're having a really, really good time, and the phonograph is on and there's a and somebody lifts up the needle from the phonograph, and the music stops, and everybody looks and there she is. And it's this moment of, oh my gosh, right? And the moment, for me, that's key, because it's the first introduction the cast, or the, I mean, the audience has to the character. Everything's Fun, fun, fun. And, you know, we're going to do this and do that. And people are jumping around, and all of a sudden the music gets very serious, and all of a sudden this being comes in, and audience doesn't really know that she is. Isabella, until they sing about that is Isabella, but I think the audience knows it, uh oh, here comes trouble, right? And so I think trying to distill that character into 15 minutes, because she's on stage for 15 minutes total, and to be able to tell the story is really, really fun, and it would change nightly, but I always knew because other certain cats would look a certain way at me, or a cat wouldn't one night. But I do think that Isabella's focus in that is, is Monkey strap. And I believe that she had a relationship with monkey strap, and she's the one that sings remark the cat right at it, and walks right towards him. And the way it stages that she reveals her, she opens her coat, and it's a sexual overture, what it is, and she opens her coat and reveals her body to him. And so Jillian really directed the show and choreographed the show in a very sexual way with all the cats, because cats are very sexual and they're very sensuous and they're not self conscious. And so that was really the takeaway that that Jillian gave me, but also that's her background in she was a prima ballerina and a great ballerina, she had roles created for her by Frederick Ashton, who was a great choreographer. So she was famous for her dramatic role she did in the ballet. So she she really knew what she was doing, and that small little dance at the end of the first act is her favorite part of the show, because it's a part of the show where it really talks about or lets the audience know that she really Isabel is trying to remember the dance, and she's trying to compete, and she knows that she has to Go in front of Deuteronomy and and try and, you know, tell her case of why I should be reborn. And I think when you do that dance, she's trying really, really hard to do it, but it just doesn't feel right. She can't do it anymore, and there's no one there to she's so alone in that moment. But that that dance is what brings her to that moment when she sings the little memory the first time she sings it, and her feeling of complete aloneness and not knowing what to do or where to go, so she escapes into her memory, and then Trevor was just inspiring on every level. On every level, he would bring Shakespeare in. He would bring, you know, Greek theater in, but you have to realize, and I think it was in the late 60s, he took over as Artistic Director for the Royal Shakespeare Company from Peter Hall, Sir Peter Hall. So I think Trevor was maybe not even 30 years old. So he is Trevor. Nunn knows more about theater than anybody I've ever worked with, maybe except for Harold Prince. But this working with him was thrilling, and he never he always wanted you to find your way into the character, even though it's choreographed, and I was a replacement, and I worked with many people. Of course, we didn't work. Didn't work with Trevor very often, because he did. They didn't come in very often. It was the production stage managers that helped us. So Dan Hild was one of the first people I worked with that was really, really extraordinary and really helped me with the role. I think the challenge with Grizabella is that, and I think this was interesting, because I they never tell you what she is. They always tell you what she isn't, which is smart. So they say she isn't a bad lady, she isn't dead, she isn't dying, she isn't old. And that might be the first thing you'll think, Oh, she's an old bag lady, which is not so interesting, and so that makes you as an actor, think about, well, who is she, and what is she, and what do other people say about me, because they bomb and Demeter sing was about the glamor cat. To me, I. But I sing remark before anybody I say before anybody else can say it. I have the I have I say it first before they can make fun of me. It's very interesting. And so just, you know, just working, just working moment to moment, and understanding the character. But also these three people are so and also all the production stage managers I worked with, and all the dance captains I worked with, extraordinary, talented people that kept it alive and reminded me, you know, Heidi, you're rushing this, or take your time looking at monkeys track, because you do it so much you think that you're doing it and you're not. That was a lot. That was pretty long winded, but there's a great question. So, no,

[15:48] Speaker 3: no. I mean, it's, it's great, I am. I wanted to hear from a little bit more about, I love that, hearing that you're told what, what she's not, but not who she is. And I think that that's a really interesting piece. And then another part is that is, of that is that you said that you really only get 15 minutes on stage, which I think you said that in the live show. I didn't. I don't think I put that together of how, I mean, it makes sense, but I don't think I really realized how little time on stage Grizabella has to make an impact. So my question for you would be, who in your eyes, is she? How did you, as a, you know, an actress, fill in the blanks, and then how did you try to convey that message in 15 minutes? Well,

[16:33] Speaker 4: that's what the actors do a lot of times, because you have to look. The first thing you do is look at the text. What does the text Tell me? And then what does what does she say? What do I say? Why do I say it? And there's not a lot of text right? There just isn't. So I always go to plates. I always will do that, because I'm an actor as well as a singer, and I was trying to think of who, what plays remind me of Grizabella. How can I kind of maybe find an entryway into that character? Because symbolically, she's, you know, the fallen woman, or she's the prostitute, perhaps, or, you know, she's also the prodigal daughter, the prodigal person. I guess coming back, there's an element of that too. She's an archetype, and it's very hard to play an archetype. You have to find that reality. So I went to Tennessee Williams first because of his poetry and his poetry as a playwright, and then I went to Blanche DuBois, who, because of her experience, and she's haughty and she's proud and she's there's a lot of similarities between Grizabella and Blanche DuBois, and that she will escape into her memory to survive. And the other really big, iconic character was Norma Desmond, again, another woman who time has passed by, living in her in the past, living in her memory and her dreams. But she's very strong. Nobody's Fool. And that's the thing with Isabella. Isabella, at times, has contempt for the fellow cats, I think, because they don't get it. And so I went there first those, that's where I went. And then I thought about TS Eliot, who is one of my favorite poets. And I love the Love Song of J Alpha Prufrock. And I thought about, indeed he wrote this, this piece, or the opossums Book of Practical Cats. Is just his poems, and it was created for children. So there's no stage directions telling you this, there's no character description, there's nothing right? So I would that's how I started to create her. And the other thing I always do is I look at the designers. The designers are geniuses. This is John Napier. Is a genius, and he designed the costume, and he designed the makeup. I just looked at what he created. And Grizabella is the most human of the cats. She wears heels. Everybody else is in flats. She has human hair. Her wig is human with a little bows in it, like the Baby Jane thing. She has a dress on. She literally has a dress. It's a beaded dress, hand beaded dress, that's what she has on. She has a boa around her neck, and she has stockings and wonder falling down. So what is John Napier telling me, what is, what is the designer telling me visually brilliant? It's just, don't you think Mike Isn't that brilliant? It's just like it tells me everything. And her her coat, it is her coat is like the Elizabethan, you know, um, collar that she is a queen. She is the queen bee. And the minute you look at that, you can't like, Oh, okay. And then so I looked, and then makeup, and her makeup, and her makeup is he like these makeup is that it's running from her crying. That's why she has those little things. There is the idea that she's crying, and then a lot of Isabella think she's bleeding in her mouth, but I don't think she's bleeding. I think that she's just kind of like, like, you know, like in her life, and just kind of, she's just kind of distracted, and she just rubs it. She just, it's smeared. I think he's just, she just smeared it. I don't think that it's blood. I think it's just her not being totally together. That's what I think it is, what

[21:09] Speaker 3: is, what is so fascinating about that, and getting to hear you kind of go through that, your your thought process by that, I think a lot of people are gonna find this really interesting to hear, because it's, it's what a as, not an actor, an actress, it's, it's what you have to go through in a role that's still relatively fresh. And, you know, it's as, even though there were a couple tours before, and there were some productions before, there's still a lot of, you know, you're not told a lot what you what you've said, whereas what, the way I got to look at it is I get to look at 40 years worth of it. And so I'm watching 40 years worth of different productions and different things and interviews and all the rumor mills and 1000s of fan fiction stories and everything in between. So when I kind of take the breakdown, it's a different interaction. So it's really interesting to hear your version because of what you had to do to succeed in the role, versus what me, as just a fan who can watch, can do to try to analyze this. And so I want to now switch gears with you on the part that I've analyzed probably the most. And I think we talked a little bit about how we have a little different opinions on this, or these are things that you hadn't played necessarily. But I want to talk about the relationships with other cats, because I think I mentioned in the live show a couple potential children, which you didn't think were the case. So I think you just said that that monk is kind of the best, the biggest relationship. But what other relationships did you play, whether, it was sexual relationships or family relationships. For Grizabella, when you performed as her,

[22:47] Speaker 4: that's great question. Jelly Lorem was a big one. Jelly Lorem was a dear friend of mine. I think jelly Lorem actually when I come in, she the kittens are curious about me. She shoes them away, she protects them, and then she shoots me a look like, I can't believe you're back here. You know, you left us. And I think that because I left, that leaves a lot of you know, they don't know why I left, or maybe some people do know why I left. But when you leave a tribe or a family, there's a there's a lot of UN unresolved business, and you come back, and that's it's hurt. You know that's hurtful. They're angry, they're jealous, I don't know, but there is a lot of that. I know. Bomb Bob, ballerina relationship I have with Marlena Danielle. And she was the original, right? Phenomenal, phenomenal actress, phenomenal singer, phenomenal human being. She was like, do whatever you need to do. Girl that that was kind of who she was. He's like, Okay, you're here. It's fine. I'm glad you're not dead. It was sort of like that. I mean, she was, she didn't really get in my way. Cassandra, oh, forget about it. I mean, she would like her eyes if she could have killed me. It would be like, I remember she turned around just and, of course, moncuss is really the thing, and syllable, because syllabub is like a I think she's a Grizz in training a little bit. I think, I think that, I think Grizz sees herself in syllabu. And I think syllabu kind of could go either way, as opposed to, you know, Victoria, who is symbolic of purity, because she's the white cat, but still above, has a she's a little bit, she's a little the cavity. I don't, I don't worry about my cavity. It's sort of like, I don't know. It's kind of like I feel like I. Um, Glenda, the Good Witch, be gone. You have no power here with with Macavity, and he's a lord of the underworld.

[25:07] Speaker 3: One rumor with Macavity that I think is interesting for your characters is that Macavity is the reason Grizabella leaves and goes on this dark path. And I think, you know, that was one thing I had definitely potentially interpreted versus, I think, you know, when we did in the live show was more about how Grisel went to maybe, you know, went to LA instead of London or whatever. One went somewhere else to try to make it and didn't make it, versus being almost brought into this negative world by Macavity.

[25:36] Speaker 4: Well, I don't think Isabella left to be on Broadway. I think Isabella left because she she was talent she had. She wanted to be her own woman, and she didn't think that she had any potential to live to her potential within the structure, the patriarchal structure of the of the junkyard, that's what I think. So she left to find a better way. She wants a better life. She wants she wants to live to her potential. And I think that it was much rougher out there than she realized it was going to be, which I think, because I see her as, you know, a very beautiful woman, a very she's cruising Bell, the glamor cat. This will how they that's how they describe her. But along with that glamor comes probably some haughtiness, some I'm better than you, but I think underneath there she might hide her natural warmth. But I think that, I think she's one of those women that has, you know, a natural warmth that she gets taken advantage of a lot, maybe, and made some really bad choices, and things just didn't work out the way she wanted them to work out. And if I were going to go to a play, I would go to Nora in dolls house. We don't know what happens to Nora when she slams that door and leaves everything, which is pretty scary, but she did, and very brave, and it caused a riot in the theater when she did that, because people don't do such things. You don't leave your husband in 1899 and she comes back that day, that that day like, why today? And as an actress, I have to ask myself that, why today? Why is she coming back today? Because today she knows is the Jellicle Ball, and today is the day that she might have another chance to be reborn and come back and have a better life, and that's what fuels her coming back.

[27:50] Speaker 3: Wow, that is super again. It's a, it's so it's so thoughtful, and especially as the person who has very different ways of having maybe my mind is, I guess, thoughtful, but in a very different way of thinking about the show, is it's so unique to hear. And I think that's the beauty of the show, is that there's so many different perspectives. Exactly, there's just millions of ways to interpret it,

[28:16] Speaker 4: because that's what they don't tell you, right? They want you to find your truth. That's those the creators were so brilliant in that. Because, yes, if that's what resonated for me, and they gave me the freedom to do that, which is a gift. So each grizzabel is different, right? So I think that's really thrilling. I think instead of trying to get into like a cookie cutter, we have to do this. And this is what she did, or whatever. It was really an interesting process. And also doing it for, you know, in many different ways, for different audiences and stuff, I would try to find other inspiration. And there was a, I don't know if you've seen this movie. It's naked by Mike Lee. It's a really, really great movie. And there's a very short scene in that movie. Is in the woman is called woman in the in the window, and it's a woman, an older woman, and she just is trying to look pretty and trying to get ready, and is maybe 45 seconds. And I saw it within my husband, and I went, Oh my gosh, that's Chris Avella. And inspired me. So I find inspiration, you know, daily, or I would find it in other people's performances and think, oh my gosh, I didn't think of that. So that's what's fun about it, because it's not, it's not like painting by numbers. You know, it was, it was always alive. It was. Always happening in the moment, and that was a real gift, and I credit the original creator for that.

[30:08] Speaker 3: So let's do a little bit of rapid fire. Let's do a couple questions I like to ask everyone. So if you are not going to play Grizabella, if you could play any other character, which character would you want to play?

[30:20] Speaker 4: Me? Just Heidi, just personally, yes, okay, if I what, I think I played jelly Lauren, because she gets to do good old bone, because she gets to be the opera cat. I

[30:41] Speaker 3: who are your favorite and least favorite cats?

[30:46] Speaker 4: I don't have any least favorite cats, but my favorite cats are the white cat, Gus Sylla, brothers I mentioned before, bomb valerina, I don't tanta mile a lot because she's such an incredible dancer. And she doesn't have a lot, you know, vocal a vocal line. She sings a couple vocal lines in the in the opening, but she doesn't have a real strong written presence, but her presence is there very much. She's part of the twins. And I always loved watching that. And of course, I want to be Tugger. Who doesn't want to be Tugger? You get to be like, you know, Tim Curry, you know, or Mick Jagger. I mean, you get to, I mean, that would be so much fun to do that. Oh my gosh, yeah, those are the ones that pop pop for me right away.

[31:53] Speaker 4: Memory? Of course, actually, I really like remark, I just like singing it. I think it's really fun to sing it, and it's really intense, and it's really fantastic. But if I, if I were going to choose another song, I would probably be the moments of happiness, because it's so like, it goes around and around, and it's ineffable. You know, as they say, affable. You can't get you can't get your you can't wrap your brain around it. It's a beautiful, beautiful song. So I see that one, yeah, moments of happiness. So

[32:33] Speaker 3: this is a question that that is a little different. So if you take the characters I want you to think about and tell me which character do you think would be thriving in the 80s, when you kind of first started with cats, and Which character do you think would be thriving now? Meaning, if you stuck the cats personality in those eras, who would be winning life? Oh,

[32:57] Speaker 4: who'd be winning life? Well, you know, I think of the eight or 80s or the 90s. I mean, because monkey strap is so, like, you know, he's such a he's a leader, and he's really by the book, but he's not, you know, there's a, I mean, like the Wall Street, that whole wall street thing, I don't know. I think Michael strap would do good in the 80s and 90s. I

[33:22] Speaker 3: love that you went to Wall Street for the 80s and 90s. Is a good way to do it, because everyone, what you just said is, a lot of people go to Tugger for the rock, you know, the rock ages, but going to Wall Street and that could just see monk, you know, suit and tie up getting ready to go into day trade. That's

[33:38] Speaker 4: what I mean. I mean, if rock and roller is always he's always relevant, right? I'm thinking, but he would, but if it was Tugger in the 80s or 90s, he'd be simply resist the bubble. Who's that guy did that? I can think of his name right now. It'll come to me. He would be cool. You know? He'd be very cool and laid back. It's different. Robert Palmer. Robert Palmer that, now that would be fun, but he'd have to morph into a Robert Palmer. You know, you

[34:09] Speaker 3: said Mick Jagger, which is kind of the way I thought about him. MC Jagger, Bowie, or somebody like in that, in that frame. So I do think he does fit in that era. What? What about today?

[34:19] Speaker 4: Mick Jagger, he's still alive today? Who would, who would survive today? From cats, of those, those, those icons,

[34:28] Speaker 3: I guess the question is, more of, if you stuck the cat in today in 2021 which cats like? Personality wise, is probably enjoying themselves. I've heard a few different fun answers to this. And so there's some, always a bunch of ways to take it. But I always love hearing because I had not heard

[34:44] Speaker 4: themselves Wall Street. Well, I go to Wall Street the 90s because, yeah, that's what was going on here in New York. 2021, 2021, it's all about right now, it's all about. Of influencers. And you know, how many, how many followers I have, and trying to, it's all about tick tock and film making, films, right? I don't know. I That's you flummoxed me. I don't know. You have to think about that.

[35:21] Speaker 3: Well, where you're going is the most common, actually answer I've heard, which is either bomb or Victoria, or somebody doing that, being an influencer and building a following for tick tock and YouTube and everything else. Well, bomb

[35:34] Speaker 4: would do that. I think Bomb, bomb probably would do then. That's what I but then I think I always go to, I go to the other side of that more for like, the whole gender idea that's happening now, which is exciting, and Black Lives Matter, and all of this really exciting work of EDI equity, diversity and inclusion, to me, that's really exciting right now. And I'm trying to think of which cat would be the person that would really lead the way for that. They have to think about it. But I think that that's for me, that's what's happening right now. That's that's where we're going to definitely so the influencers and all of that, that's fine. But I mean, if you can't tell I was, I always go to, like, the very serious deep end or something. I'll find that in, like, a tuna fish sandwich. But it's like, I'm just, I think that that would be, who, like be elite. You know, it might be, it'd be Deuteronomy, but Deuteronomy, because he's kind of all knowing, I just, and he would have a lot of followers. A lot of people would follow him. A lot of people would he's such, he's such a leader. Because he's not just a leader. He's like a Gandhi, you know, or Nelson Mandela or John Lewis, you know, he's people would follow him.

[36:55] Speaker 3: So he's almost, he's the cult leader, but not, you know, in more positive light in this way. So okay, I've got to ask you my last question. Okay, million dollar question, and I know you've, you've given your defense for Grizabella. So I'm going to ask the question a different way, because I've argued that I don't think Criswell should be the joke choice, and I know that you do think she should be. So my question to you instead is, why not Gus?

[37:22] Speaker 4: Because Gus hasn't given up his ego, yet he's still stuck in the reason Grizabella is chosen is because she gives up her ego. She says, I need you help me. Help me. Touch me. You know, she can't say it something. That's what she couldn't say. Until then, she could never admit that she was vulnerable, that she that she needed, right? So she's given up her ego. She's let it go. Gus is still holding on to that, you know, that she, if she didn't show up, he would go, I think, because he's he's old. And the other cats too, they're young, so they have other opportunities to go. If I was playing Deuteronomy, right, it's like, well, Victoria is pretty young. You know, she has, she has made, she could go, but who really needs to go and try again? Who's made the most mistakes? Who's lived, who's lived through something that they know there's a better way that's taken some risks. That's Grizabella. She left, so she gives up her ego, and then they go, okay, you can go try again.

[38:34] Speaker 3: So I kind of do, and I do appreciate that, which is by your criteria for Deuteronomy, is that it's someone who has to be like, you know, on the older side, have lived life and need that next experience. So that pretty much only leaves you and Gus, Grizabella and Gus. And in that scenario, it's Gus hasn't given up himself yet and is too selfish. So between the two, I'm only choosing between the two. That's why Grizabella joins but

[39:00] Speaker 4: I also think, because, also it's her story, you know, that's also just, you know, I can't imagine anybody. I don't see why. I can't justify, you know, if you're thinking about why you would choose, why someone would be able to be reborn or resurrected, or whatever you would want to call it, to have another chance to get it right. I don't think anybody in the show, or any cat in the show shows any Demeter is just terrified. She's just terrified of the cavity because he raped her. That's what we were, I was told. So she's just terrified he's going to come out, that's, you know, and take her to the underworld. But that's an interest. That's interesting. I i That's my belief that she suffered the most, and she has, she's learned the most. That's why she that's why she's the most human. That's why her. Her costume is the way it is so for that production. But I think that you could direct it definitely, if you wanted to do your own production of it and have your own thesis, you certainly could figure, you know, have a really good reason for other people to go that might be very interesting actually. You

[40:20] Speaker 3: know, that is the root of this podcast. Is my thesis, to try to change everyone else's mind, and whenever, maybe one day, rewrite the ending or completely have a cats too. But I wanted to thank you so much for coming on. This has been so fun to hear your takes. Hear about you know, how you thought through the production and through the character development. What you know you inspired you to do it. That's such a unique piece to get to hear. So thank you so much for taking the time today. You

[40:51] Speaker 4: bet I loved it, and I loved sharing that with whoever is going to be directing it or performing in it. It's it's fun to pay it forward, so to speak. So yeah, thank you for having me.

[41:13] Speaker 3: Well, thanks for listening to this episode of the wrong cat died the podcast breakdown, the cat's atrophy. To follow along. You can subscribe on Apple podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, or anywhere else you listen to podcasts, follow us on Twitter and Instagram, at the wrong cat died. Or check out our website, the wrong cat died.com. You.